00:01:05 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 00:04:46 You could also just do it directly in LLVM by telling it that you want undefined behavior on unsigned overflow in this circumstances. 00:12:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:14:56 Now, the problem with base 10, and all other positive integer radix bases, is that they're topologically incorrect. 00:16:05 Are you saying they outright don't have topoligies? 00:16:27 Oh, I think they have topologies. But the topologies are incorrect. 00:17:17 Say that a set of sequences is open if and only if, for every sequence in the set, there's a finite prefix of that sequence such that every sequence with that prefix is in the set. 00:17:55 (For example, the set of all sequences containing at least one "b" is open, because given the sequence "aaaabaaaaaaa", there's a prefix, "aaaab", such that every sequence with that prefix is in the set.) 00:18:31 Then there's no continuous function taking a regular Cauchy sequence and returning a decimal expansion for its limit. 00:19:02 i've been pinged 00:19:20 oh 00:19:23 yeah 00:19:25 that wasn't me 00:19:31 i don't know system F 00:19:39 but i appreciate the faith in me 00:20:37 I think. 00:20:46 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 00:21:55 Yeah. Given the sequence 1.1, 0.9, 1.01, 0.99, 1.001, 0.999, 1.0001, 0.9999, ..., you can never find any digits of the decimal expansion because you don't know whether the first digit is 0 or 1. 00:22:32 The most obvious bases that don't have this problem are the negative integer radix bases. 00:23:38 No, that's not quite true. 00:23:51 They're the negative integer radix bases where you're allowed to use digits at least as large as the base. 00:23:53 quintopia: yw 00:24:04 The absolute value, rather. So, e.g., base -2 with 0, 1, and 2 as digits. 00:25:18 is system F brainfuck? i don't even remember 00:25:50 quintopia: no it's lambda calculus with explicit rank-n types 00:26:36 ghc's core intermediate language is an extension of it 00:26:57 the basica version allows only terminating functions 00:27:00 *-a 00:27:20 I once made some kind of RLE where some values are data values and some are RLE values, and the RLE values are small-endian shifted numbers so, for example, you might have eight data values and eight RLE values, then the digits are 1 to 8. If RLE values are present, you add two to determine how many. 00:28:02 oerjan: i don't understand anything even remotely related to ghc. i feel like the dude in that codeless code "the monolith" 00:28:14 wat 00:28:23 Clearly there is still some redundancy though. 00:34:26 darn, how could everyone have missed a flaw in numbers this whole time 00:34:55 is mathematics inconsistent 00:34:57 Bike: That isn't a flaw, though. 00:35:33 It looks to me like an error in trying to use then with topologies even though it shouldn't apply. 00:36:03 wait is Bike talking about what zzo38 thinks he is talking about 00:36:09 actually, yes. 00:37:03 zzo will see that everything he loves is a lie as soon as he tries getting digits of the limit of 1.1, 0.9, etc etc 00:37:08 doom! doom!! 00:37:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:37:27 That's because it doesn't have a limit. 00:38:08 Many things don't have a limit! 00:38:19 what a cruel thing to say. 00:39:08 I don't care if it is cruel or not. 00:40:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:40:36 ironically that is also a cruel thing to say 00:41:34 -!- edwardk has joined. 00:43:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:44:28 cruelly, that is not actually ironic hth 01:03:22 and incidentally (neither cruelly nor ironically) it is/was my birthday 01:04:02 happy olsner day! 01:04:26 -!- kmc has set topic: Happy olsner day! | PSA: fizzie is running the wiki now, contact him for any problems | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 01:04:33 how do you feel 01:04:45 somewhat inebriated? 01:04:57 (it's just as well, we're 90% of the way through megasecond 1400) 01:05:24 not older, because really I'm pretty much exactly as old as I used to be 01:06:53 420 build LLVM every day 01:08:07 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:08:23 kmc: I don't do drugs, but if I did I wouldn't do llvm 01:08:50 Some people's birthday is on Feb.29 and it has to be moved to Mar.1. One way to avoid is to use your actual sun sign rather than the calendar; then you don't have to worry about leap years. However, in such a case, it will then change which date it is on each year much more often. 01:10:00 how are you inebriated if you don't do drugs 01:11:46 high on life tbh 01:11:52 my impeccable logic has been peccled 01:12:04 high on inebriation itself 01:12:33 like a snake smoking its own tail 01:13:02 Do you know what is the ecliptic longitude of sun at the time of your birth, to the nearest degree, and what time this year is corresponds to the same number? (I am not asking you what it is; I only ask if you know it or not.) 01:13:15 I do not know 01:13:19 no, but I think I could look it up? 01:13:22 (I don't actually care what the result is.) 01:14:10 kmc: Using ephemeris you certainly can look it up, yes. But you may need to know the time of day too, in such a case. 01:14:32 i know the approximate time of day when I was born 01:14:36 if I start using rust's format macros, I wonder if it would bloat my kernel horribly 01:14:41 probably 01:14:49 well, my thought exactly 01:19:13 You can either use software on your computer to calculate it (such as Swiss Ephemeris, or Astrolog), or use a webpage form such as http://ephemeris.com/ephemeris.php It will display the current positions by default. You should leave the longitude/latitude/meters blank. The columns "Longitude" and "Latitude" are ecliptic positions (you can tell because of the units used), while "Right Asc." and "Declination" are equatorial coordinates. 01:19:26 -!- hogeyui has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:24:29 (Ephemeris can also be used for date/time in the future, too.) 01:31:52 -!- hogeyui has joined. 01:34:20 http://www.theonion.com/video/christ-article-a-video,36101/ 01:35:50 i feel this. 01:41:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:41:52 In a tarot deck, one card is called a "Fool" (or sometimes, an "Excuse"). This card is often labeled zero, but I disagree, and believe it should instead remain unlabeled. Generally, either it is either the highest trump, or it is a card which can be played even though you are able to follow suit, but always loses the trick. 01:42:38 Someone once told me why it is labeled zero, which is because it represents the beginning of the journey, which is what the trump cards represent. I can understand this, but do not consider it to be a valid excuse. What do *you* think? 01:43:59 Another document agrees with me that it should not be numbered, but has an entirely different reason which does not agree with mine. 01:44:31 why would i care 01:44:34 Have you played any card games at all which have a card which can be played even though you are able to follow suit? 01:44:49 I am wondering what other games use such a feature. 01:51:35 that game with the eights? 01:52:39 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Eights 01:52:55 uno and speed uno 01:53:19 and that upstream downstream one i think 01:56:07 Yes, but I meant about trick taking games, where you lose the trick if you don't follow suit. 01:56:44 other than spades? 01:57:13 I don't really know how Spades is played, but I can try to learn 01:57:37 i'll play spades with you 02:02:27 In hearts it is played that you cannot lead a heart until one is played (and also a similar rule is sometimes used in spades). But what if, all you have are hearts? 02:03:26 -!- hk3380 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:03:51 Wikipedia says they can play it anyways in such a case. 02:05:04 Perhaps the following variant rule of Hearts is similar to the Excuse card in tarot: "Non-distinct Jokers are valueless cards that cannot win tricks. They may be played at all times (except to lead tricks)" 02:07:38 zzo38: in spades, if you have all the spades, you must call for a redeal 02:08:28 O, OK, why is that? 02:09:07 -!- xk002 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:13:06 -!- xk002 has joined. 02:16:27 zzo38: because if you have all the spades, you will automatically win every trick, which means you will declare 13 tricks, the other side will declare 0, everyone will make their bids, and no fun will be had by all. boring. 02:17:28 I'm going to keep on hoping that, despite this image, Creatures 4 will have a real genetics editor 02:17:28 http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110825065432/creatures/images/4/44/Creatures_4_Editor.jpg 02:24:42 I'd think it will. 02:25:14 Just that because it's free-to-play, you'd have to pay for each custom egg you hatch or something. 02:26:14 Are you a Creatures fan? 02:26:29 Yeah, though it's been a while since I've played. 02:26:47 Keep scratching my Creatures 3 disks, hoping to get it on gog.com sometime. 02:26:49 Cool, which games? 02:26:54 Ah 02:27:10 Just 3, though I wouldn't mind playing the others. 02:28:05 Pretty much only DS+C3 here 02:37:07 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!). 02:37:48 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 02:40:27 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:54:38 -!- kmels has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:55:24 -!- kmels has joined. 02:58:34 -!- hk3380 has joined. 03:28:06 :t mconcat 03:28:08 Monoid a => [a] -> a 03:38:55 -!- hk3380 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:52:54 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 04:00:08 -!- MoALTz has joined. 04:02:14 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:17:51 shachaf: https://github.com/kmcallister/rfcs/blob/lints/active/0000-loadable-lints.md 04:19:01 and discussion here: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/89 04:19:06 i like mcpherrin's suggestion of CSS selectors for ASTs 04:19:33 jQuery for Rust 04:20:20 :D 04:20:22 rQuery 04:24:02 [wiki] [[0(nop^)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39667&oldid=39666 * John Misciagno * (+101) 04:25:37 Can xQuery selectors be used for ASTs? 04:27:47 I want to know a code that can convert something like CSS selectors for ASTs into a SQL code. 04:30:31 what is xQuery? 04:31:14 Queries XML documents 04:31:31 how does it compare to XPath? 04:31:43 I think pcwalton's idea here is pretty #esoteric: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.dev.servo/49g2izLWsls/VRlR_dSws_EJ 04:31:48 so Blink has a JIT for CSS selectors 04:32:01 and he wants us to do the same, but also throw out any other representation of CSS nodes 04:32:07 Is it just me, or is 'API' coming to mean 'HTTP-transported API returning JSON objects'? 04:32:09 and get it dynamically by decompiling the JIT code 04:32:16 Sgeo: this is why we can't have nice things 04:32:39 https://www.mashape.com/ sgeo 04:32:52 a hilarious site fyi 04:33:31 Bike: an ad for that site is exactly what made me think of that 04:34:27 http://blog.mashape.com/post/69006514021/list-of-25-email-validation-apis man they even advertise it 04:34:34 we have a million of everything and it all costs moneys 04:34:44 Wait. Why is that site suggesting hitting it for using the APIs? Do people make HTTP/JSON APIs on that site based off other APIs that might not be so "friendly"? 04:35:21 "EmailValidate is a web service which validates email addresses using various methods, including: Syntax validation, MX record lookup, SMTP availability" 04:35:30 i have sliced my thumb by attempting to use a knife as a different kind of tool 04:35:32 SMTP? Isn't that obsolete, shouldn't we be HTTP POSTing emails? 04:35:36 not badly, just enough to feel stupid 04:35:58 kmc: did you try to use it as nail polish 04:36:02 Sgeo: one day in the future, software archaeologists will attempt to discern the purpose of all these mysterious protocol layers under HTTP 04:36:02 Maybe it is call obsolete, but it shouldn't be. We should be using SMTP and deprecating the ability tp HTTP POSTing emails. 04:36:05 shachaf: no 04:36:43 maybe if browser developers applied their mystic powers of understanding thirty layers of historical garbage i wouldn't have so much trouble with bug biology 04:36:49 There are many better protocols than HTTP. 04:37:26 HTTP isn't the protocol we want but it's the protocol we deserve 04:37:28 zzo38: that literal example isn't quite happening yet. Except to the extent that webmail clients work, but that is, so far, just to a server which itself will use SMTP. 04:37:38 no, there are totally services that let you send email by HTTP APIs 04:37:53 i feel like i should spend some time actually learning rust 04:38:03 shachaf: it's pretty cool 04:38:22 Sgeo: http://www.mailgun.com/ is a popular one 04:38:47 shachaf: you should do it so that you can implement rustc features that i want 04:39:06 application/x-www-form-urlencoded? 04:39:11 Jeez, seems like a novelty these days 04:39:26 in 11 months as a professional Rust developer, I have opened 48 issues on the Rust bugtracker 04:39:42 whoa, meteor shower tonight 04:39:46 yeah? 04:39:49 I still insist to use SMTP (or TFTP). If the server requires HTTP to be used, you should instead immediately deprecate it and write a SMTP server that translates the signals, and then eventually fix it so that it works other way around. 04:39:52 I'd almost say I'm weirdly happy about that, except it exposes security issues because what's an SOP,
inventor? 04:40:04 this is why we can't have nice things 04:40:31 11:31 < kmc> should I be scared when the WHATWG spec says "for historical reasons"? because I feel like that phrase already applies to the entire document 04:40:34 11:31 < Ms2ger> Correct 04:40:36 11:32 < Ms2ger> That just means "for historical reasons we dislike particularly" 04:41:58 -!- pdxleif has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 04:42:05 -!- tromp_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:42:42 HTTP is very wasteful, and HTTPS isn't as secure as they want it to be. 04:42:57 as long as you're writing a whole browser you should write a whole hypertext replacement, realistic adoption be damned 04:43:09 moxanadu 04:43:22 :D 04:44:17 zzo38: what do you think are the main security issues with HTTPS? 04:44:21 zzo38: there's a TCP-like protocol that lives on top of HTTP(S). It's becoming quite popular. 04:44:24 there are so many, I don't even know where to begin 04:44:48 Don't write the whole browser anyways. Use different program each purpose. Using telnet and SSH when you want interactive sessions without hypertext and so on (SSH also allows a few other things; you can send a command directly for batch processing, and you can use X forwarding if you need a GUI, but hopefully you don't need a GUI and can avoid that complexity). 04:44:49 Well, I guess 'on top of' isn't quite accurate. More initiated by 04:44:53 today somebody asked me whether using "EFF" was worth it. after some needling i found out he meant their HTTPS Everywhere gizmo 04:45:01 heh 04:45:05 Sgeo: websockets? 04:45:08 kmc: yes 04:45:11 good times 04:45:31 i was like, are you trying to set up donations or sumfin 04:45:33 kmc: and the company you're working for is building a mobile OS on top of this mess. 04:45:51 as god intended 04:45:51 Hmm, does Mozilla count as a company? 04:46:01 Or just 'organization'? 04:46:03 well they're a bunch of people 04:46:06 therefore, company 04:46:32 You should use SSH instead of HTTPS, and avoid use of HTML too. Make the command-line to upload/download/access bank statements and so on, using bank statement format, payment format, etc 04:47:14 hey zzo are your parents computer people? 04:47:16 -!- tromp_ has joined. 04:47:30 zzo38: fantastic idea! Now, what do we do when our customers think that we're an utterly backwards company because we have no web site? 04:47:50 Sgeo: Well, make a web site! But, put a notice on it that says, "Deprecated"! 04:48:58 No matter how bad the existing stack is, anything you ask a bank to come up with will be worse. 04:49:24 i'm just having a hard time imagining you being you if you've ever had to help an unsavvy parent with the computerbox 04:49:32 Making a non-web GUI is also going to be 'fun', involving possibly asking customers to trust that we're not evil (maybe warranted for an ISP, possibly not so much for, say, sharing 'meme images') 04:50:07 Best is not GUI at all, if it can be avoided. 04:50:15 Bike: there's the alternative possibility they're so unsavvy they refuse to touch a computer, ever 04:50:29 that was actually my first guess 04:50:33 If you do need a GUI, use non-trusted X forwarding. 04:51:15 But try to allow it to work without a GUI if that is at all possible, even if a GUI is available. 04:51:18 You want to let people run X programs on bank servers? 04:51:48 The web is the worst cross-platform GUI stack there is, except for all the others. 04:51:51 monotone: No, you should disable GUI, to avoid that. 04:52:03 geez monotone do try to keep up 04:52:33 -!- mcpherrin has joined. 04:53:01 -!- M28 has joined. 04:53:20 still thinkin' jwz("I'll invent a new protocol!") 04:53:40 like building a bookcase out of mashed potatoes 04:53:41 If you do need to run X programs, well, you can fake it, and whatever. Ensure both sides are secure. It may be easier to secure than a webpage. But first try to use, don't use GUI at all if it is possible to avoid GUI. 04:53:51 `uname -a 04:53:52 Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux 04:53:56 hi mcpherrin 04:54:02 kmc: hi kmc! 04:54:06 hi m28. 04:54:41 mcpherrin: HackEgo is a bot which executes each command by booting a new Linux virtual machine, running the command, and then merging filesystem changes using Mercurial 04:54:56 Bike: At least you tried? 04:55:02 okay, it's User Mode Linux so both "booting" and "virtual machine" are something of an overstatement there 04:55:06 but that's how it works 04:55:11 UML is cool 04:55:11 `coins 04:55:13 ​boatwanvcoin bilcoin dugocoin goto+coin piecodecoin subsidcoin minarcoin uncepticoin cobcoin alpaincoin ultisismcoin javcoin pinquinaboracoin tudcoin ornicoin juggariolacoin pckivcoin mempovecoin tarylancoin ballcoin 04:55:15 `cat bin/coins 04:55:16 words \${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |\$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords 04:55:25 monotone: (i think that's how jwz described using xlib) 04:55:53 Did they install SQLite yet in there? It could be installed, if you want to write a survey program in SQL, to run in HackEgo. 04:56:00 oh hey this paper cites "McAllister". kmc are you a biophysicist 04:56:06 no 04:56:11 i'm also not a street in san francisco 04:56:13 Bike: Oh, I see. Was talking about the greeting anyway. 04:56:42 Bike: those mashed potatoes should go well with the edible book festival 04:56:44 nor one of the dorms at my school, which has been repurposed into having the air force and fashion classes, i imagine 04:56:44 Imagine if there were no languages except PHP... is this an accurate way to describe the web? 04:56:49 no 04:56:56 no hell below us 04:56:58 Javascripttttttttt 04:57:00 no part of the web technology stack is as bad as PHP 04:57:08 JavaScript is bad but it's not irredeemably bad 04:57:10 Sgeo: No; it isn't the only way to program it, too. You can use CGI programs in C, too. 04:57:23 JS is a really weird demonstration of the Lambda the Ultimate principle 04:57:28 JavaScript is a fine programming language actually. It is used really badly though. 04:57:38 PHP is much worse. 04:57:40 kmc: sending browsers text data that contains both trusted and untrusted data, with the only separation being context-sensitive escaping 04:57:49 partly it's that everyone has to use JS, so they come up with ways to make it not suck 04:57:51 web escaping is awesome 04:57:59 in that what the fuck even 04:58:01 (PHP can also be used for command-line programs; in fact, so can JavaScript.) 04:58:08 whereas people who use PHP and realize how bad it is can just use something else 04:58:11 with some exceptions 04:58:33 zzo38: yes, I worked somewhere that had a mixed Rails / PHP codebase and used both langugaes for batch processing as well as webapps 04:58:56 PHP also has a tendency to "fix" things by making them worse. 04:59:06 If you are using JavaScript for something other than client-side coding on webpages, then you usually can easily use something else. For example, Synchronet door programs are written in JavaScript, but you can just as well use a native code program or a DOS program. 04:59:26 emscripten that shit 05:00:14 asm.js wooooo 05:00:19 XULrunner programs are also JavaScript; you can try to use C++ instead but that probably makes it more difficult and more confusing. I think JavaScript is really not too bad. 05:00:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:00:39 dos.js 05:00:44 zzo38: hail xpcom? 05:01:43 mcpherrin: I know about XPCOM. 05:02:06 xpcom.js 05:02:17 mcpherrin: there is interest in writing Gecko components in Rust 05:02:23 xpcom.rs woooo 05:02:42 kmc: I have written enough xpcom to know that I don't want to do that ;) 05:03:16 I have written webpage server programs in SQL, though. It was at someone's request; they had SSH clients and all that stuff on their computers but I (and the system administrator) are the only ones who didn't refuse to use them. I later found my program was rewritten in Ruby by someone else. 05:03:26 another fun macro is let string = objc![[NSString alloc] initWithCString: "Hello, world!"] 05:03:56 (Possibly because they didn't know SQL, or something like that?) 05:04:19 (Or maybe they hated SQL) 05:04:19 lol, should have expected that when I searched for a JS interpreter in JS, I'd find one that's just SpiderMonkey compiled to asm.js with Emscripten. 05:04:21 kmc: let me know when you can embed a Smalltalk IDE into Rust 05:04:32 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:04:50 monotone: i'm imagining an ICE where the pistons are themselves engines 05:04:50 someone was compiling webkit to asm.js too 05:05:56 monotone: https://github.com/mozilla/narcissus/ 05:06:21 So now we're talking about running a full-fledged browser in your browser, in a way that's somewhat more efficient than the current state of the art, running a browser in an x86 emulator in your browser. 05:07:24 man anyone remember xzbit jokes? those were the dayzzzz 05:07:53 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:07:57 high times 05:08:08 rip 05:10:36 -!- HackEgo has joined. 05:12:39 If you want structured menus of files and stuff, which is suitable for any device with any user interface (including scantron), then gopher protocol is very suitable for such a thing. 05:15:06 -!- password2 has joined. 05:15:17 take these words to heart 05:25:44 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 05:28:23 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:52:42 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:59:58 god javascript is such a shitty language 06:00:12 is it even worse than mortal javascript 06:00:17 yes 06:00:33 what is it this time 06:01:48 For what things are worse in JavaScript? 06:02:36 Devil Javascript 06:11:49 -!- not^v has joined. 06:13:26 how can you make a website as awful at getting information to people as http://www.theatrebayarea.org/events/event_list.asp 06:13:52 it used to be ~one page with all sorts of plays 06:14:16 then it was ~4 pages grouped geographically 06:14:20 now it's 67 pages 06:14:56 am i missing something 06:19:29 -!- kmels has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:27:39 that sounds like what muni did 06:32:22 there's an announcement: http://www.theatrebayarea.org/news/159235/Welcome-to-Our-New-Website.htm 06:41:53 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep). 06:46:14 fungot: While you are letting your guard down / I will be letting myself go / While you keep running your ship aground / I will be setting myself alight 06:46:14 kmc: reloaded the python plugin. it is implemented... 06:51:55 -!- not^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/Akc6r.gif). 06:52:13 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 06:52:29 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 06:52:35 fungot: Good answer. 06:52:35 fizzie: i still think s/ coming and s/ pheromone/ mark/ blog/ images/ p6_cover_big.gif amusing) 06:54:25 Implement fungot in /// 06:54:25 Jafet: where x y and t is injective. 06:54:52 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:56:23 -!- edwardk has joined. 07:00:46 zzo38: why do you know about XPCOM? 07:00:59 kmc: Because I worked with it a bit once 07:01:15 -!- tswett has joined. 07:01:35 what did you make? 07:04:33 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:04:33 kmc: http://www.theonion.com/video/christ-article-a-video,36101/ 07:04:52 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 07:04:55 yes 07:05:24 apparently my idea of fun on a friday night is to consume a large amount of alcohol and marijuana and then read the dlopen(3) manpage 07:05:48 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 07:06:28 I was modifying a XULrunner program. 07:19:35 kmc: woohoo dlopen(3) 07:20:14 \m/ 07:20:25 * mcpherrin reads it too 07:21:50 stoned dlopen partay 07:21:58 * mcpherrin sober by now 07:22:06 moar whiskey perhaps 07:28:29 hi mcpherrin 07:28:35 hi shachaf 07:31:53 shachaf: I feel like I forget who you are ( I mean, I know you're in the other IRC channel too ) 07:32:49 I don't think we've met. 07:33:23 Probably not :) 07:33:53 I've seen your name before but probably just in IRC and/or Rust contexts. 07:34:38 shachaf: oh so we're in three overlapping IRC channels :P 07:41:24 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:54:01 -!- xk002 has quit (Quit: Saindo). 07:54:33 -!- xk002 has joined. 07:59:27 -!- hogeyui has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:09:00 -!- password2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:12:27 -!- hogeyui has joined. 08:14:23 -!- edwardk has joined. 08:16:01 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:22:15 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 08:22:53 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:25:39 -!- password2 has joined. 08:33:31 shachaf: 'undefined' and the way it makes errors manifest in the wrong place 08:33:39 imo no better than mapping a page of zeroes at address zero 09:05:03 `coins 09:05:05 ​formcoin exedcoin bitacoin furncoin rigencoin penccoin inscoin ennecoin oddycoin allecoin arbroocoin whenecoin wjthcoin dobridcoin sted!coin minenreanencoin cationcancecoin dissantinguadcoin bancoin warcoin 09:12:58 Do you ever look at some code you wrote and think "why" 09:13:09 "why the hell did I think this would be a good idea" 09:16:29 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 09:22:17 yes 09:22:56 "lambda shapes: all([shape in self.ships for shape in shapes])" 09:23:37 -!- nooodl has joined. 09:26:16 that's numberwang 09:27:17 This line (which was written by me) came from something I was doing from a friend, for a competition where we had to write in Python. 09:27:43 It was originally largely based on his earlier C++ code, with parts based on my earlier Haskell code. 09:28:12 At some point we renamed a bunch of things from "shape" to "ship" or possibly the other way round, but we were horribly incomplete about it all 09:29:47 A lot of it was then written by a very over-tired me 09:30:20 A lot of it I have had to justify as "it came to me in a dream" because that's what it felt like. 09:31:19 Oh, I think that line is shipshape. 09:31:23 hi fizzie 09:31:32 Himc. 09:32:03 how strange it is to be anything at all 09:33:14 My next "hi" will probably be from Kyoto, incidentally. 09:33:29 hi fizzie 09:34:11 Now I can't say "hi" back because it'd make me a liar. :/ 09:34:27 (evil laughter) 09:35:32 just remember: SUNTORY BOSS is the boss of them all since 1992 09:42:07 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:58:56 Bike: The connection from solving systems of polynomial equations to Gröbner bases is as follows: if X (a vector of real numbers) is a solution of P_i(X) = 0 for 1 <= i <= n, then any polynomial Q in the ideal I = _{1 <= i <= m} has X as a solution. Now the Gröbner basis B of I is a subset of I, so X is also a solution of the set of equations given by B. Furthermore, B generates I, which contains all P_i, so any... 09:59:02 ...solution to the equations in B is also a solution of each P_i. So B has the same set of solutions as the original polynomials. But the polynomials in B are often (maybe always, but I don't see why. did I mention that I'm not an expert on Gröbner bases?) easier to solve than the original ones, because by a suitable choice of order on monomials it's possible to separate variables (so you get a polynomial in x_1, then one... 09:59:08 ...in x_1 and x_2, then one in x_1 to x_3, and so on). 10:00:47 * kmc hugs int-e 10:01:21 oh? 10:02:21 oh 10:03:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:29:41 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:35:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:40:59 "Hevisaurus is a Finnish heavy metal children's music band, who dress in dinosaur costumes." 10:43:23 -!- mhi^ has joined. 10:43:26 -!- olsner has joined. 10:53:58 Jafet: There was a schism in the Hevisaurusverse, I remember reading about it. 10:54:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 10:54:13 Jafet: Something about current rightsholders and the original founder and blah blah this and costumes that. 10:54:37 Oh, I guess the wiki article mentions it. 10:54:49 "In early 2011, the founder of the band, Mirka Rantanen, got into a disagreement with the band's record label Sony Music. Because of this, Rantanen and three other band members belonging to the band's live assembly founded a new band called SauruXet, which has continued making children's power metal music with the original concept and nearly identical artist names. The band Hevisaurus keeps ... 10:54:55 ... its lead singer, its producers and the original stage costumes." 10:57:27 -!- impomatic has joined. 11:03:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:07:58 -!- hk3380 has joined. 11:34:57 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:40:59 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 12:06:14 -!- xk002 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:13:03 [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39668&oldid=39559 * Rdebath * (+302) /* My optimizing interpreter again */ 12:15:48 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 12:18:29 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:18:37 [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39669&oldid=39668 * Rdebath * (+169) /* My optimizing interpreter again */ 12:21:53 -!- password2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:34:28 -!- password2 has joined. 12:41:07 -!- password2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:48:07 -!- yorick has joined. 13:04:15 -!- nooodl has joined. 13:36:09 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 13:36:17 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 13:38:27 -!- boily has joined. 13:39:47 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit). 13:52:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:03:02 -!- hk3380 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:08:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:10:16 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:12:45 It is true, that sometimes I have written some program code and think, why would I think it is good idea at the time? 14:15:32 goto hell; // it seemed a good idea at the time 14:16:48 Actually I have used "goto hell" in a few programs in error handlers, and do not consider it so bad 14:17:00 -!- drdanmaku has joined. 14:20:08 -!- sign has changed nick to systemd. 14:20:40 -!- olsner has joined. 14:27:10 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 14:30:12 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:31:51 zzo38, ooh, don't tell ais about that 14:50:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:51:00 -!- tromp_ has joined. 14:51:12 -!- Sorella has joined. 14:51:45 -!- Sorella has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 14:53:10 -!- Sorella has joined. 14:59:14 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg). 15:02:12 -!- hk3380 has joined. 15:03:35 Ripley once went to Hell on the suggestion that he go there several times. 15:03:49 (It is a place in Norway.) 15:07:58 i'm just a few minutes' drive from there, actually 15:08:24 it's next to trondheim's airport. 15:08:41 So, Hell is Trondheim's Heathrow 15:09:02 no, Hell is next to Trondheim's Heathrow, which is name Værnes. 15:09:08 *named 15:09:08 Oh, OK 15:10:16 6 minutes walk to the airport, i read in an article about the Blues in Hell festival (very small but praised festival) 15:11:02 i also recalled someone once suggested renaming the airport to Hell airport instead. i think it's like on the border between the two villages. 15:11:40 (well Værnes might count as a town, but Hell is smaller.) 15:12:52 of course with a name like that and extremely good connectivity a festival just has to be successful. 15:12:56 There is a Hel in Poland 15:13:03 Isn't there a Hell in Jamaica? 15:13:20 Taneb: i think that was mentioned last time we discussed this 15:13:43 I think there is a Hell in Pennsylvania 15:13:45 Probably by me :) 15:14:03 plausible 15:15:26 darn there i go talking before opening the logs again 15:15:57 -!- edwardk has joined. 15:16:19 (IE's search makes it awkward to go to hits on my nick that aren't close to the beginning or end of the file, so now i have to click past everything i just said) 15:16:50 back in IE 8 it was easy, i could just click in the document to tell it to start searching there :( 15:17:17 but obviously they thought that was too conven*Wconfusing 15:19:02 What if you use the F7 cursor mode? 15:20:25 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:20:35 hm what is that.... 15:21:32 nope, no effect. in fact the cursor was already where i had clicked, just invisible. 15:22:03 -!- edwardk has joined. 15:28:00 [1,2,3,4,] // DIE IE8 DIE 15:35:31 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:35:41 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:37:53 Going to see the new X-Men film tonight 15:43:26 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:45:55 -!- Frooxius has joined. 15:46:05 -!- Froox has quit (Read error: No route to host). 15:46:08 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:46:44 -!- systemd has changed nick to sign. 15:47:44 -!- Frooxius has joined. 15:48:53 Taneb, oh, what a coincidence, so am i 15:50:22 Phantom_Hoover, it would be amusing if by some bizarre coincidence we ended up sitting next to eachother 15:50:23 Well 15:50:30 The bizarre coincidence would be more amusing 15:50:40 I doubt you would travel to York to watch a movie 15:50:55 and i can't see why anyone would travel to leamington spa, ever 15:51:41 Where even is that 15:51:57 it's pretty much glued to warwick the town 15:52:20 the glue is some weird clay with healing properties, clearly 15:58:26 -!- esowiki has joined. 15:58:31 -!- esowiki has joined. 15:58:31 -!- esowiki has joined. 15:58:52 -!- esowiki has joined. 15:58:56 -!- esowiki has joined. 15:58:56 -!- esowiki has joined. 15:59:00 -!- glogbot has joined. 15:59:06 [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots -- please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup 16:00:36 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murdoch_Mysteries 16:00:36 Clearly the same person 16:00:36 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:00:36 OKAY 16:00:48 -!- erdic has joined. 16:01:23 his death 60 years earlier was clearly faked 16:04:52 -!- esowiki has joined. 16:04:56 -!- esowiki has joined. 16:04:57 -!- esowiki has joined. 16:05:09 -!- glogbot has joined. 16:05:31 glogbot: STAY PUT 16:07:14 It's not like anyone posted any 40 line rant about the sorry apathy in the European Parliament in the 12 seconds glogbot was absent 16:10:12 ^style europarl 16:10:12 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 16:10:21 fungot: i think you have a job to do 16:10:22 oerjan: six questions have been received. in view of such negligence, we are going to vote tomorrow on a cursory text. the proposal put forward and the conditions in which the fnord world, in east asia opens up an appalling vista. this is also a fellow countryman. there is extremely wide agreement in the committee before on mr cassidy's report linking the need for our proposals to a very low sulphur content, unlike mediterranea 16:10:59 the first two sentences are nice 16:11:15 I didn't know that europarl was also infested by that f-word though 16:11:39 I wrote a brainfuck JIT, it works with Hello world and a few other simple examples, but it seems to be crapping itself with longer programs, like bottles to the wall 16:12:51 anyone wanna take a look? 16:13:04 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 16:13:19 -!- idris-bot has joined. 16:13:22 99 bottles of Segmentation fault (core dumped) 16:14:06 our jit expert never seems to be active these days. 16:15:14 I'd be curious what the code looks like but I'm not optimistic about actually spotting bugs. 16:15:44 oerjan: who would that be? 16:16:02 that would be Gregor 16:16:19 i mean, making a jit for IOCCC makes you an expert, right? 16:16:43 well that and winning 16:16:54 compared to someone who has never made a jit at all, certainly :) 16:17:30 Tsk tsk 16:17:35 I'm an expert in all hackery things. 16:17:42 impomatic: Is the koth hill still active? 16:17:54 I submitted something days ago but I havent received any feedback 16:19:24 Gregor: how can you be idle for 4 days and still see pings 16:19:29 mroman: definitely still active. You need to submit the program in the body of the email and ensure the email is plain text. 16:19:49 oerjan: Just because I'm not chatting on IRC doesn't mean I'm not online. 16:19:56 mroman: also, there's the SAL hills which have a beginner hill. 16:20:10 Gregor: also, i'm still grieving for HackEgo's lack of log search ;_; 16:20:14 oh. hm. 16:20:25 Might be the case that Outlook Web App prefers sending html :) 16:20:36 i mean, MY CHANNEL MEMORY IS GOING, I CAN FEEL IT 16:22:21 Gregor: anyway M28 needs code review for his buggy bf jit twh 16:22:42 gimme a sec, fixing a bug with getchar 16:24:03 -!- conehead has joined. 16:24:04 I also don't like that you removed the log access from HackEgo. When will you fix that? 16:26:00 (now Gregor remembers why he never speaks on the channel any more) 16:26:24 Yup. 16:27:05 Gregor: are you an internet expert, too? 16:27:16 I'm an expert in all hackery things. 16:27:55 Wait, you aren't dead and your last name isn't Jong-il, right? 16:28:14 No comment. 16:28:25 Gregor never said that he invented the Internet, as far as I know. 16:29:27 Will you install SQLite on HackEgo? 16:29:27 i find it _somewhat_ unlikely that kim jong-il said that. 16:29:44 if only because north korea doesn't have internet 16:29:53 He's claimed to be "an internet expert too" 16:29:57 http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/10/05/north-korea-kim-jong-il-im-internet-expert/ 16:30:03 ...according to Fox news, I notice 16:30:07 ah 16:30:13 `sqlite3 16:30:13 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sqlite3: not found 16:30:19 ... hm. 16:30:31 oerjan: They have internet? 16:30:50 http://puu.sh/8ZgV6/e9826ca5cb.png 16:30:52 ops 16:30:56 I just recently read in a paper that they have a handful (<5) PCs with internet connection 16:30:57 wrong key 16:30:57 heh 16:31:03 http://puu.sh/8ZgVX/48c18d9d9f.txt 16:31:09 or at least plan to have them. Can't remember exactly :( 16:31:12 it's C++ 16:31:18 mroman: still, he probably didn't claim to invent it. 16:31:24 `sqlite3 16:31:30 "," is broken for whatever reason 16:31:55 SQLite version 3.7.13 2012-06-11 02:05:22 \ Enter ".help" for instructions \ Enter SQL statements terminated with a ";" \ sqlite> 16:32:04 zzo38: ^^^ 16:32:07 I think I read that some of the .kp domains now point to servers in north korea 16:32:11 O, it works now 16:32:15 whereas earlier they were hosted in Germany IIRC 16:33:21 excellent, Gregor is also our local C++ expert 16:33:41 M28: what about programs that contain more than 127 < or > signs in a row? 16:33:52 int-e, no one actually cares >_> 16:34:00 heh 16:34:14 I should probably split it once it hits 127 16:34:30 Yeah, I don't exactly know x86 machine code by its hex X-D 16:34:42 Pfft 16:35:17 We could now use this SQLite to write programs for polls and various other things 16:35:34 M28: it's just that this might actually happen if the brainfuck code is generated by some sort of compiler. 16:35:43 yep 16:35:56 I wrote a B to Brainfuck compiler once 16:36:10 (B is the language that comes before C, really) 16:36:35 I plan to eventually rewrite the JIT to optimize code generated by the compiler 16:36:42 Any clues whether a stack-based programming language with one Register (stack contains register values, so no stacks of stacks, register are bounded in size) with random read access to the stack could be turing complete or not? 16:37:22 is register unbounded? 16:37:29 \$d 16:37:33 I don't think you even need a register if you have a stack, as long as you can push, pop, add, etc. on the stack 16:37:37 M28: the [ case looks wrong: you have to test for zero before the first loop iteration 16:37:57 int-e, wait what 16:38:07 it's a while loop, not a do while loop 16:38:07 oh 16:38:09 OH 16:38:13 thanks 16:38:17 forgot about that ;_; 16:38:33 (an unconditional jump to the ] code will do the trick) 16:38:42 mroman: is the random read access like in false? 16:38:50 the problem is looking ahead 16:39:03 anyways, thanks 16:39:09 tell me if you can spot anything wrong in , 16:39:12 M28: reserve space for the destination, patch it up in the ] case. 16:39:16 yep 16:39:20 that's what I'm gonna do 16:39:21 mroman: that is not TC because your stack addresses become bounded as well... 16:39:28 nortti: You can treat the stack as a "tape" for read access 16:39:40 i.e you can move around in the stack brainfuck-style with < and > 16:39:58 there are no "addresses" 16:40:01 then, I think one could do that, by simulating a queue 16:40:44 The only write access is push/pop/peek 16:40:51 (If the logs would still be on, then we can also copy the logs into SQL format in order to query them by use of SQL queries.) 16:40:53 M28: a stack doesn't give you turing-completeness unless the stack cells are unbounded. you get just a pushdown automaton. 16:40:53 hm wait 16:41:01 actually just push and peek 16:41:03 you can't pop 16:41:49 You can push the register, peek the top of the stack, or read a specific element of the stack 16:42:22 (peek and read overwrite the register's contents) 16:42:30 M28: what happens with the INT3 in there? 16:43:44 int-e, it's a break point 16:43:49 I was using it to debug 16:43:57 shouldn't this work: you keep the peek pointer in the "start of queue" and when you dequeue, you just move the ptr one topwards 16:44:28 enqueueing could be done with just the push 16:44:39 it would build up a lot of garbage, tho 16:44:59 http://codepad.org/ZcodA1m2 <- that's my sketch so far 16:45:04 nortti: oh that looks good 16:45:23 which is the no-auto-commit-mode 16:45:31 in auto-commit mode + - automatically perform a push 16:46:06 it works! 16:46:07 yay 16:46:16 http://puu.sh/8ZhWl/2b2e2efac9.txt 16:46:24 it's able to run 99 bottles of beer to the wall 16:46:29 and it's incredibly fast :p 16:46:34 M28: now try lostkingdom *cackles evilly* 16:46:39 now I need to fix , 16:46:56 lo? 16:46:59 ops 16:47:01 what?* 16:47:17 M28: adventure game compiled to brainfuck 16:47:40 oh 16:47:46 need to fix "," first 16:48:09 possibly the biggest brainfuck program seriously made 16:48:15 -!- password2 has joined. 16:48:35 it's not really much of a brainfuck program. 16:48:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Anyway, I should be going). 16:50:07 M28: I don't know what's wrong with the getchar. I'd compile and disassemble a C program that makes a call to getchar and, say, prints the answer. 16:50:26 it's just a cdecl call 16:50:51 (oh and I have not checked the opcodes) 16:51:14 getchar not working? 16:51:15 I have, they're fine 16:52:36 http://puu.sh/8ZikE/4295510bcf.png 16:52:47 those are the first lines of "-,+[-[>>++++[>++++++++<-]<+<-[>+>+>-[>"... 16:53:19 the first 5 instructions is just the start of the JIT code 16:54:29 oh wait 16:54:30 uh 16:54:32 now it works... 16:54:34 welp 16:54:38 let's call it magic 16:56:14 let's run the lost kingdom now 16:57:46 msvc crashed 16:57:47 lol 16:57:58 when I tried to save the lost kingdom into the source code 16:58:03 I'll just read it from a file 16:59:26 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:01:29 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:02:37 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 17:03:28 it works! 17:03:38 http://puu.sh/8Zj1F/96d44324c6.png 17:05:17 Neat 17:06:08 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:06:26 It looks like some line breaks are omitted in the list of objects in room 17:07:22 it's possible that cmd.exe only recognizes \r\n line brekas 17:07:24 breaks* 17:07:30 and it's printing \n line breaks 17:08:51 mroman: is the peek pointer relative to top of stack or to bottom of stack? 17:09:29 http://puu.sh/8Zjq0/ef2f4fa7ea.png 17:15:42 Actually from what I could tell, in text mode it will work with just \n and convert to \r\n. Also, I don't think it is related only to cmd.exe; it is part of the Windows command-window environment in general. 17:16:10 it is 17:16:26 I am not quite sure though. 17:21:45 shouldn't putchar('\n') produce \r\n? 17:22:11 (on that platform) 17:23:38 int-e, yeah I made a wrapper for that 17:23:59 https://github.com/Matheus28/BrainJIT/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L15 17:24:26 -!- variable has joined. 17:25:01 mroman: did you try that koth hill again? 17:26:13 M28: the lost kingdom *does* contain long runs of > and <. 17:26:35 yeah I did fix that 17:26:46 https://github.com/Matheus28/BrainJIT/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L95 17:27:29 -!- shikhin has joined. 17:27:30 by the way 17:27:38 that thing isn't really written in brainfuck, is it? 17:27:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:28:01 like, I hope someone wrote it in another language, and wrote a compiler to brainfuck for it 17:28:34 M28: but something is going wrong: In that hut, all I see is "a small wooden box of matches sitting on the table (2)" 17:29:12 M28: iirc it was written in bfbasic 17:29:32 I don't see any error, where do you see that? 17:30:13 M28: running LostKng.b in a "normal" brainfuck interpreter 17:31:05 I chose long descriptions there 17:31:13 this one has short descriptions http://puu.sh/8Zjq0/ef2f4fa7ea.png 17:31:21 but the text is reworded 17:31:25 are you using the same version? 17:31:27 http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/lk.png 17:31:59 oh 17:32:00 I see 17:32:08 I have no idea, tbh 17:32:43 sha1sum says 587dc8ebf682dd78f413ebf599ca0552c1d7bdcc LostKng.b for LostKng.b btw. 17:32:58 sec 17:33:51 uh 17:33:56 I'll take a look at it later 17:33:59 kinda tired atm 17:37:15 impomatic: I did 17:37:27 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:37:28 nortti: relative to the top 17:37:56 haven't got an answer though so far 17:38:19 and it's been more than an hour 17:49:00 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 18:00:14 -!- hk3380 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:04:54 I think there is a Hell in Pennsylvania 18:05:03 there's also a town that has been on fire since 1962 18:05:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania 18:08:03 Odd how there is a Reading in Pennsylvania 18:17:57 why is that odd 18:23:14 code I wrote 2 years ago that has mfence() in various places with no explanation 18:23:17 B| 18:25:58 what does it do? 18:26:07 int-e: thanks. 18:26:36 s/it/the instances of it in the code/ 18:30:19 -!- hk3380 has joined. 18:32:06 nortti: that is the question isn't it 18:33:43 does it stop working if they are removed 18:36:32 another fine question 18:36:51 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:37:43 and not something I can easily test 18:38:26 nortti: isn't it a bit dangerous to assume that it is working now? 18:39:50 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:40:12 that's one reason it's hard to tell if it stops working 18:48:11 Does mosh make a ^G when it reconnects? 18:55:34 dunno 18:55:38 [wiki] [[Talk:Meta Turing-complete]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39670&oldid=30910 * GermanyBoy * (+202) /* ℒ */ 18:55:41 why would it 18:56:01 https://twitter.com/shelajev/status/469735994464690177/photo/1/large so easy 18:57:11 How well does it work to make a key using a 3D printer? Can it be done if you only have the lock and not the original key? I tried to make a copy of a key in the ordinary way but it did not work; maybe it is a copy of a copy. 18:58:00 which is the ordinary way? 18:59:06 do you just mean a tumbler 18:59:07 By giving the key to the locksmith and having them use their machine to do it. 18:59:37 most of thet times I've cut keys by hand, I did it by loading a lock with the appropriate pins and then filing away bits of the key until it turns 18:59:48 duplicating a key by hand directly from another key is harder 18:59:53 but i've done it 19:01:15 and yeah, key copying machines often do a poor job 19:01:37 what kind of key was the one you copies by hand? 19:01:56 there's nothing quite like a lovingly hand-cut key 19:02:45 you're not restricted to the usual key shapes 19:03:05 you can cut a perfectly smooth spline between the control points 19:03:25 nortti: I don't remember specifically which key I duplicated by hand directly 19:05:02 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:05:39 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:06:01 mostly I have hand-made master keys for various buildings and tunnels at Caltech 19:06:31 without having another master key to work from 19:07:03 how did you construct those? actually, how do master keys word in general 19:07:08 +? 19:08:06 jeez the word "tumbler" looks weird with an e 19:08:30 kmc: I don't know why it would but whenever I resume my computer from suspend, and also just now when my Internet connection came back, I hear a bell sound. 19:08:30 so here's how a pin tumbler lock works: http://i.imgur.com/pEQoB9a.gif 19:09:02 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:09:06 I want to learn how to make the key from using only the lock, so that I can try to ensure I have a key that works, rather than the copy that doesn't work. I can't use their key, because it doesn't belong to me; but I am authorized to use the lock. 19:09:10 in a master key system, some of those columns contain 3 or more metal cylinders, so that it can open at 2 or more different heights 19:09:21 oh, right 19:10:05 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:10:30 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 19:10:37 you can take the lock out of a door, disassemble it (quickly and quietly in the middle of the night in a bathroom or out of the way machine room or something) 19:10:43 and measure all the bits with calipers 19:11:00 do this for a few different locks in the same master domain; compute the unique key which opens all of them 19:12:19 kmc: I’ve seen a key (that I believe is a master key) that has a row of round indentations in the side close to the top edge. 19:13:22 yeah 19:13:30 What do those do? 19:14:05 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:16:23 I don't know about those specifically, but there are various high-security key systems that have another coding mechanism besides pin heights 19:17:41 mostly I know about the Medeco system, which rotates each pin to one of three angles in addition to lifting it 19:17:44 http://modernlock.com/medeco.jpg 19:18:41 this does more than increase the number of combinations by a factor of 6*3 19:18:46 it makes picking much much harder 19:19:35 picking depends on getting the lock to a state where there's just one particular part which is prevent it from turning the next little bit 19:20:04 but you can't do this when there are multiple orthogonal mechanisms preventing it from turning 19:21:47 also it's just hard to manipulate the pin rotations with standard lockpicking tools 19:22:23 but i was never very good at lockpicking, anyway 19:22:52 and unauthorized medeco keys are not particularly hard to make (claims of the manufacturer notwithstanding) 19:23:35 measuring and cutting the rotations is easy, and they must be the same for every key in a master domain 19:25:16 interesting, apparently abloy locks are hard to pick (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_tumbler_lock) 19:26:47 medeco also assigns a different keyway shape to each customer (from some finite set, presumably) and tries to restrict who can buy blanks of which shape 19:26:56 but this is not a very effective measure 19:26:56 * mcpherrin uses abloy locks 19:27:19 you can buy blanks from sketchy companies in china that are close enough, and then cut them to fit by hand or using a dremel 19:27:19 medeco blank restriction is somewhat effective against casual key-copying 19:27:37 aren't abloy locks kind of universal or is my perspective skewed by me being a fin? 19:27:41 +n 19:27:52 nortti: that's a scandanavian thing; they're much less available worldwide 19:27:54 I think the latter 19:28:01 ic séo 19:28:05 yeah douglass_ was telling me about abloy locks; apparently they are very hard to hax 19:28:15 Even if you cannot use key cutting tools, would you be able to use 3D printers to duplicate it? Probably you would need more sophisticated 3D models of the key in such a case than ordinary keys, but maybe it can still be used sometimes? I don't know how well it would work at all 19:28:16 she has more key-fu than i do 19:28:26 zzo38: yes, I think you can use 3D printers to duplicate keys 19:28:31 Is Medeco a lock vendor? 19:28:33 yes 19:28:35 abloy 20/70 is my favourite padlock 19:28:38 oh, okay 19:29:12 zzo38: you could also use a 3D printer to do a variation of the master key privilege escalation that doesn't require disassembling any locks 19:29:29 kmc: you can also copy medeco keys onto plastic sheets easily enough; we used spent gift cards a lot 19:30:12 if you have a legit key for some door in the building, you can fabricate a set of ~50 keys to test, and from which ones open the door you can compute the master key 19:30:19 mcpherrin: haha, that's awesome 19:30:29 are those strong enough to turn the tumbler, or do you use it with a tension tool 19:30:51 kmc: you can turn the tumbler with them 19:31:01 they're very limited-use though, only opens a lock 3-4 times 19:31:07 ah 19:31:49 yeah keyway doesn't matter when you can just force the plastic in and it conforms :p 19:31:58 However, what I am trying to do isn't duplicate a key (since I tried it and it didn't work). I wonder if I can make a working key from only the lock (without breaking, disassembling, or uninstalling it). I tried to copy a working key but the copy didn't work; maybe it is a copy of a copy, or something like that? I don't really know why it doesn't work. 19:32:48 zzo38: so it depends how you copy a key: If you're using a key cutter that follows an existing one, you definitely lose fidelity 19:33:04 zzo38: the advantage of cutting from another lock loaded with the right pins is that it quantizes the heights to the 10 or so official heights 19:33:15 +/- variation in the pins and other components, of course 19:33:21 but this prevents the copy-of-a-copy problem 19:33:48 there are key duplicating machines that will cut by code rather than just following the profile of an existing key 19:34:00 http://www.ricklab.com/keymart/images/ta_lkgks.jpg 19:34:09 So you can get a thing like this and use it to read out the code for the key 19:34:14 nice 19:34:28 "kwikset" is a hilarious name for a brand of locks :3 19:34:40 and then if you have a CNC mill (who doesn't), you can easily CNC a new key perfectly 19:34:44 mcpherrin: have you seen https://keysduplicated.com/ 19:34:50 yeah, I think they use a CNC mill 19:35:05 kmc: haha yeah, I was considering writing an open source version 19:35:12 they have a HTTP API for ordering keys o_O 19:35:43 at least for kwikset keys since that's what I'm most familiar with 19:36:15 wait ... they collect key profiles together with addresses? what could possibly go wrong?! 19:36:28 Where would you go to get them to cut by code? 19:36:38 zzo38: I'm not sure 19:36:40 zzo38: most lock smiths should be able to do that 19:36:45 become a locksmith? 19:36:51 like a real lock smith, not a teenager in the corner of a hardware store 19:36:55 probably a locksmith or a lock supply shop can at least tell you where to go 19:37:09 you cna probably order them on the internet 19:37:18 silk road 19:37:53 You could write a program that generates a picture of the key and uploads it to keysduplicated.com ;P 19:37:55 int-e: they could deliver the keys to your table 19:38:11 Or if you're feeling like a lot of tedium, you could file the key yourself. 19:38:19 FireFly: that does sound convenient. 19:38:30 It's not *easy*, but you can just take a file to a key blank. 19:38:39 pikhq: I was espousing the virtues of that approach before 19:38:46 mcpherrin: Yes, interesting idea, if you have a good 3D rendering software!! 19:38:48 12:01 < kmc> there's nothing quite like a lovingly hand-cut key 19:38:51 12:02 < kmc> you're not restricted to the usual key shapes 19:38:54 12:03 < kmc> you can cut a perfectly smooth spline between the control points 19:39:07 kmc: hmmmm interesting point 19:39:27 kmc: :) 19:39:40 there was a lot of social infrastructure at my school for encouraging frosh to do this kind of thing and teaching them how 19:40:38 I should get a key gauge and some blanks 19:40:44 make myself some bespoke keys :p 19:40:52 even better, take pics of somebody else's keys and have them delivered to your home 19:40:54 -!- hk3380 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:42:01 the terms of service are cute. "You may only use this service to copy keys that you are authorized to copy." and "You may not use this service as a locksmithing service, and agree to use Shloosl only to duplicate existing keys." 19:42:15 there was a rule that you shouldn't cut keys from data you haven't measured yourself, even though you could get it from someone else 19:42:29 in order to keep alive the skills of obtaining said data 19:44:00 hmm kinda tempted to buy a http://www.amazon.com/Lab-LKG001-5-N-1-Key-Gauge/dp/B000ZHB31I 19:45:09 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGXTF6bs1IU 19:45:23 which was also a kind of secret society / occult knowlegde thing 19:45:40 keegan of 2005 would be aghast that I am telling you all of this stuff 19:46:00 kmc: key copying is secret society stuff? lolwut 19:46:17 kmc: I guess for anybody who hasn't been to maker faire or defcon or ... 19:46:27 (or hung out with hardware store employees....) 19:46:40 afaiu locksmiths are still unhappy about books being published about lockpicking 19:47:02 pfft, that cat is long out of the bag 19:47:12 mcpherrin: that was the culture at my university 19:47:42 there was one house which did most of the key hacking and tried to keep stuff secret from non-members 19:48:02 I mean the general principles of lockpicking etc. are easy enough to find online 19:48:11 but things like details of how to make suitable medeco blanks, or that this could even be done 19:48:17 kmc: heh, we did the oppsite in univeristy 19:48:18 -!- not^v has joined. 19:48:25 flyer bombed campus with instructions on how to do things 19:48:30 make sure everybody knows! 19:48:32 (I think at the time, Medeco claimed it was impossible, and there wasn't so much information online as now) 19:48:35 haha 19:48:37 that's awesome 19:49:20 the people who were taking and manufacturing illegal drugs were a lot less discreet than the people making keys :P 19:49:39 at the time, campus security didn't really give a shit about the former 19:49:41 we had a "student newspaper" 19:49:57 which was us sneaking into photocopy rooms and making an issue 19:50:12 samizdat, good 19:50:29 yes exactly 19:50:32 -!- edwardk has joined. 19:50:38 I'm always up for some good samizday 19:50:42 I'm always up for some good samizdat 19:51:12 hey mcpherrin you should write something like http://subterfugue.org/ but for Linux 3.x and in Rust 19:51:37 http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/rtld-audit.7.html is another fun way to screw with programs 19:52:42 what's the thing that ais made for nethack TASes again? 19:53:06 @google nethack tas tools 19:53:07 https://gitorious.org/nethack-tas-tools 19:53:40 maybe I'm thinking of something else 19:56:50 time to go buy new bike shoeees 19:57:48 -!- hk3380 has joined. 20:01:45 why do bikes need shoes 20:01:58 do you mean tires 20:02:33 no, I mean shoes for me to wear while on a bike 20:04:59 :3 20:05:17 though tires are like shoes for a bike 20:06:56 -!- password2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:10:43 So if you put on tires on the bike, does it get tired? 20:11:37 It'd be getting tyred in British English, hth. 20:12:51 Isn’t Tyre a place in Lebanon? 20:13:29 That's what Wikipedia just told me. 20:29:17 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:46:07 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39671&oldid=39665 * Icepy * (+3) 20:46:33 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39672&oldid=39671 * Icepy * (+17) 20:52:39 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:02:18 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 21:03:39 -!- MoALTz has joined. 21:03:50 -!- nooodl has joined. 21:05:25 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:05:37 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 21:06:32 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:08:24 -!- edwardk has joined. 21:09:54 -!- not^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:15:47 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39673&oldid=39672 * Icepy * (+838) 21:16:38 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:25:31 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39674&oldid=39673 * Icepy * (+25) 21:31:07 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39675&oldid=39674 * Icepy * (+40) 21:32:25 So I tried to think of ways to make a better lock just now. 21:33:01 I thought, what if each key had to be in a specific shape that encodes some data, and then the lock just works by mechanically reading off the data from the key such that it can only turn if the data is correct? 21:33:03 just throw bricks at anyone with a lockpick 21:33:13 'Course, that's what a cylinder lock is. 21:33:31 or throw bricks at anyone with a brick, since they could use the brick to break a window. 21:34:10 The great thing about throwing bricks at people who have bricks is that they're likely to throw bricks at you, making it impossible for them to use those bricks to break windows. 21:34:31 What are the known non-brute-force methods of attacking a cylinder lock? Picking and bumping? Are there others? 21:36:21 on what level of nested wheres does haskell starting to get ugly? 21:36:31 rephrase readably plz 21:36:33 -!- douglass_ has joined. 21:36:44 On what level of nested wheres does Haskell start to get ugly? 21:36:44 douglass_: you may know the answer to What are the known non-brute-force methods of attacking a cylinder lock? Picking and bumping? Are there others? 21:36:55 impressioning 21:36:58 wrong 21:37:08 http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Impressioning#Manipulation-based_Impressioning 21:37:44 myname: mho: the maximum indentation level is six stops, assuming each stop is four columns. 21:37:49 what if you fill the lock with a magnetic fluid and manipulate it magneticallly until it opens, then freeze the liquid?? 21:37:51 tswett: amusingly, attacking a lock with "brute force" could mean two different things 21:37:59 kmc: hm, true. 21:38:01 I assume you don't mean enumerating all the keys 21:38:12 you could let the key melt later, so, the perfect crime 21:38:14 Right, I mean actual brutish force. 21:38:21 but if you have a legit non-master key, you can do a tractable enumeration to get the master key 21:38:24 as I described above 21:38:34 I had better luck with it than bumping, but never got it to work on more than 4 pins. Though maybe this, like bumping, is a method that works better with well-made locks, and my practice lock was shit. 21:39:09 I enjoyed the movie 21:39:29 tswett: I have a fantasy of a device with an electrical probe that uses time-domain reflectometry to measure pins without removing or disassembling the lock 21:39:34 I don't know if this is practical 21:39:43 what movie? 21:39:45 kmc: I liked the idea of looking at keys of several locks that have the same master key 21:40:12 int-e: that works sometimes, yeah 21:40:24 Bike, the new X-Men film 21:40:24 Bike: the new X-Men film 21:40:31 you have to make some assumptions about how the master keying is done, which don't always hold 21:40:39 There should be a law stating that trespassing is legal if you do it in a sufficiently clever and interesting way. 21:40:53 Bike: fun fact, most shapes that will open a lock aren't easily removable from it afterwards 21:41:05 oooh. 21:41:21 countering my attack before i thought of it. very clever, locksmiths 21:41:28 maybe i should acquire a lock and try to pick it 21:41:35 I forgot to smooth out a key I made once. It resulted in an awkward situation. 21:41:58 tswett: it already works that way; if you get caught you were not "clever" enough. 21:42:22 this reminds me that i don't understand the lock my car uses. the key is a flat bar with a curvy depression down the middle 21:42:30 int-e: oh yeah. 21:42:50 I dunno. You should be able to call off the investigation by filing a report. 21:43:08 tswett: you can also imagine noninvasive imaging of the lock, but I'm not sure what kind will work 21:43:16 Bike: Oh, an internal cut key. Neat. 21:43:52 oh yes that seems to be it 21:44:01 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39676&oldid=39675 * Icepy * (+192) 21:44:15 The mechanism is pretty mundane on those, I'm pretty sure. 21:44:35 I think the housing will block x-rays 21:45:03 and it's metal so MRI is no good 21:45:07 maybe ultrasound 21:45:43 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39677&oldid=39676 * Icepy * (-6) 21:46:02 You can make some sort of electrical wave inside a conductive material, right? 21:46:12 Like, obviously you can transmit signals through wires. 21:46:13 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39678&oldid=39677 * Icepy * (+6) 21:46:20 well, it mostly wants to go on the surface 21:46:22 but still 21:46:32 Is that the skin effect? 21:46:54 you could put a radioactive substance inside the keyway, or bombard the lock with neutrons until it's radioactive 21:47:29 Place a neutrino source on one side of the lock and a neutrino detector on the other side. 21:47:32 yes 21:47:52 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39679&oldid=39678 * Icepy * (+48) 21:48:12 If you have a neutrino source and detector of nontrivial power then I think that lockpicking is the least of your priorities. 21:48:22 you could vibrate a pin up and down very quickly and maybe measure something 21:49:56 pikhq probably doesn't like my plan to train a slime mold to climb in and then climb out and reproduce the shape, either 21:50:14 pikhq: I imagine that the key lifts pins by some sort of hook that moves along the internal cut. 21:50:16 Ooh, here's an idea. 21:50:31 Fill the lock with some sort of gel that sets permanently but remains soft. 21:50:48 After the gel sets, pull it out, and it'll return to the shape of the air spaces inside the lock. 21:51:26 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39680&oldid=39679 * Icepy * (-225) 21:51:40 You know, it must be possible, in theory, to create a "sound camera" that creates an image of where sound is coming from. 21:52:08 or my other plan to determine the initial condition of the universal wavefunction by observing cosmic background, and then use this to determine the history of the universe up to the point where the lock is being made 21:52:29 Frsrs, ultrasound. 21:53:36 or my other other plan to take over ZEVS in a daring military operation, and carefully measure the distortion of ELF waves through the lock 21:54:00 -!- clog has joined. 21:54:30 Let's ignore noninvasive imagining for the moment; that's boring. So, locks can be defeated by picking. Use the behavior of the lock to measure the code one pin at a time. 21:55:11 Maybe you could make it so that the cylinder turns as long as the pins are in a valid position, but it doesn't turn all the way unless they're all in the correct position. 21:55:13 tswett: if you have access to both sides of the lock, somehow I think picking it is a bit redundant 21:55:49 FireFly: not necessarily. I can access both the north side of a building and the south side of a building without being able to access the interior. 21:56:15 Hm, true 21:56:37 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 21:57:24 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39681&oldid=39680 * Icepy * (+47) 22:00:43 -!- mhi^ has joined. 22:05:07 I like how the ear behaves as a demultiplexer. 22:05:44 The brain can't handle signals with a bandwidth higher than 100 Hz or so, so it takes this 20,000 Hz signal and transforms it into a whole bunch of narrower signals. 22:06:33 s/demultiplexer/Fourier transform/ 22:07:10 I wouldn't say it behaves as a Fourier transform. It doesn't completely take audio from the time domain to the frequency domain. 22:07:31 If it did, we'd only ever hear one sound, but we'd know its frequency components exquisitely well. 22:09:53 It can definitely demultiplex, though. You can, to a degree, listen to multiple simultaneous sounds and make them all out. 22:19:59 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 22:20:52 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 22:25:26 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39682&oldid=39681 * Icepy * (-145) 22:27:13 i like how the ear reduces the frequency using a bunch of bones sitting in goop 22:29:06 int-e, fixed that bug 22:29:13 int-e, damn it was a hard bug 22:29:17 to spot, not to fix 22:29:18 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 22:29:30 I had typod 0x82, instead of 0x80 in part of the asm code 22:30:02 Yup. A mechanical demultiplexer. 22:30:19 Does stuff that operates mechanically on sound waves still count as "mechanical"? 22:30:39 Like, a whistle produces sound "mechanically", right? 22:30:43 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 22:31:59 considering there are no moving parts... 22:32:31 And if the word isn't "mechanical", then what is it? 22:32:45 what are you trying to oppose it to? 22:33:03 Well, as opposed to something without moving parts. 22:33:21 Like, say, a maraca definitely produces sound "mechanically". Stuff hits other stuff, making noise. 22:33:59 A whistle doesn't have moving parts; it's a resonant chamber along with an amplifier that operates fluidically. 22:34:05 There's the word I want. Fluidically. 22:34:06 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39683&oldid=39682 * Icepy * (+268) 22:34:37 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39684&oldid=39683 * Icepy * (+22) 22:34:47 The ear isn't a "proper" Fourier transform, but it is implementing an approximation of a Fourier-related transform being used in a very similar way to its use in audio compression. 22:35:41 It's almost like the human ear was designed not to notice MP3 compression artifacts. 22:35:47 :P 22:36:38 -!- tswett has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:36:56 -!- tswett has joined. 22:37:04 If you have multiple copies of a picture or audio with different watermarks, can you then detect them and tamper with them? 22:37:48 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:39:38 The clock without moving parts is sundial (including digital sundials). 22:40:09 Now, could you make a computer that operates using sound waves? 22:40:11 But, do you know which timepiece has the most number of moving parts? 22:40:26 tswett: I don't know. 22:40:39 zzo38: nice question 22:40:46 zzo38: some clock tower? 22:40:50 Or... 22:41:09 I can see someone arguing that the timepiece with the greatest number of moving parts is the night sky. 22:41:31 tswett: I suppose someone can argue that, but it isn't what I meant. 22:42:09 -!- tswett__ has joined. 22:42:31 think low tech 22:42:31 Sound waves mostly interact linearly. There are definitely ways of doing non-linear things, though. 22:42:36 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39685&oldid=39684 * Icepy * (+158) 22:44:53 The easiest logic gate to implement should be the buffer. Outputs 1 upon receiving 1; outputs 0 upon receiving 0. Amplifies the signal and doesn't pass it in the wrong direction. 22:45:21 zzo38: but which of those has the most parts? the one in a museum in Nima perhaps? 22:45:28 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:45:28 -!- tswett__ has changed nick to tswett. 22:45:42 int-e: I don't know that either. 22:46:10 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 22:47:06 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39686&oldid=39685 * Icepy * (-13) 22:48:26 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39687&oldid=39686 * Icepy * (+22) 22:49:17 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 22:49:27 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Changing host). 22:49:27 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 22:49:32 tswett: isn't that made by putting two inverters in a row? 22:49:48 int-e: it can be. 22:50:24 Making an inverter sounds tough. Make a device that produces sound if and only if it is not receiving sound. 22:51:02 Maybe you could use destructive interference. 22:52:39 In theory, you could just use a device that always produces sound of the relevant frequency. Stick that together with your input line, and it should just work, as long as everything is of the right length and whatnot. 22:53:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:53:32 But you have to make the device output sound of the right phase, too. 22:54:14 If you could just make some sort of non-linear one-directional amplifier, I think you ought to be able to make everything else. 22:55:56 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:56:40 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 22:57:00 I'd think inverting sound would be easy. 22:57:21 MDude: how would you do it? 22:57:24 Just swich the coils on the speaker around, and it'll push whne it'd otherwise pull and vise-versa. 22:57:29 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 22:57:37 *when 22:57:46 Now do that without any wires. 22:58:29 I'd think it'd involve something with the hardware. 22:59:13 Like a transformer or something. 22:59:14 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 22:59:27 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:00:19 I'll try to make something in circuit simulator, but first dinner. 23:00:20 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39688&oldid=39687 * Icepy * (-56) 23:01:22 -!- edwardk has joined. 23:02:52 The software "Astrolog" includes some nice features, such as the "timed exposure" feature, and the ability to overlay constellations on the world map; however, this is unfortunately not Free Software. (However, GPL ephemeris software does exist.) 23:03:53 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 23:04:22 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 23:04:27 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Changing host). 23:04:27 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 23:06:25 zzo38: that one should have about 40 billion moving parts. :) 23:06:37 (the one in Nima) 23:06:48 I haven't been at Nima 23:07:40 neither have I 23:08:53 -!- shikhout has joined. 23:10:44 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 23:11:11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock is another fun candidate (I read as far as "atomic fountain") 23:11:57 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:12:10 but then we need to discuss moving electrons in the next step, which makes things a bit silly. 23:12:14 Do something like: INSERT INTO WINDOW(TITLE,CONTENT) SELECT 'Horoscope',COMPUTE_HOROSCOPE(ID,GLYPH,JULIANDAY('now'),GET_GEOLOCATION()) FROM PLANETS; 23:12:52 Why are you capitalizing identifiers? 23:13:29 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:13:38 I just like to do that. You can also put the identifiers in "..." if you prefer. 23:14:36 insert into "WINDOW"("TITLE","CONTENT") select 'Horoscope',"COMPUTE_HOROSCOPE"("ID","GLYPH","JULIANDAY"('now'),"GET_GEOLOCATION"()) from "PLANETS"; 23:15:18 They are also case-insensitive, so you can use any combinations of uppercase/lowercase letters. 23:16:08 THERE SHOULD BE A stereotype THAT computer programmers put emphasis ON ALL non-content words IN THEIR speech. 23:18:29 It is RECOMMENDED that programmers follow RFC 2119 in their everyday speech 23:19:24 My "recommendation" is that all "programmers" "put" all "content" "words" inside of "double" "quotation" "marks". 23:23:50 77 DECLARATION VALUE IS "It is my belief that all programmers should use syntactically valid COBOL". 23:31:36 what's the thing that ais made for nethack TASes again? <-- web o' flies? 23:31:36 Oh, so the sound needs to be transformed mechanically. 23:32:22 What's the medium otherwise? Taunt wire, like in a tin can phone? 23:33:13 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39689&oldid=39688 * Icepy * (+89) 23:33:43 [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39690&oldid=39647 * Icepy * (+15) /* Non-alphabetic */ 23:33:48 @tell kmc what's the thing that ais made for nethack TASes again? <-- web o' flies? 23:33:48 Consider it noted. 23:34:05 [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39691&oldid=39663 * Icepy * (-52) 23:34:57 [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39692&oldid=39690 * Icepy * (+0) 23:36:34 [wiki] [[User:Icepy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39693&oldid=39657 * Icepy * (+77) 23:37:24 If that's the case, you might be able to use a mechanical gate like what would be used with rod logic, it'd just have to be sensitive to small/low torque motions. 23:39:07 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39694&oldid=39689 * Icepy * (+0) 23:39:33 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39695&oldid=39694 * Icepy * (+0) 23:39:42 I've tried looking up mechanical amplifierd before, and the best I came up with in terms of analog equipment was something that worked using belts. 23:40:37 "Everyone should speak in Haskell string literals." 23:40:48 MDude: I was thinking tubes or something. 23:41:17 What about... Tube ON Belts 23:41:24 I should sleep 23:41:46 A fluedic transistor I've heard about apparently worked well, but it also seemed inheriently digital.' 23:41:56 What do you mean by "digital"? 23:42:16 Digital logic is what I'm trying to implement here. 23:43:11 I mean it was set up so that the power being fed into it would go out one of two outputs. 23:44:19 It was for warer, actually, and relied on vorticies forming into the device. 23:44:49 I'll try to look it up, the image explains nicely. 23:45:49 Oh, it's right on the Wikipedia page for fluedics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics 23:46:29 Basically, a pre-existing vortex in the system will perpetuate itself if power is supplied. 23:47:07 Place a neutrino source on one side of the lock and a neutrino detector on the other side. <-- i think you might just possibly be confusing neutrons and neutrinos there 23:47:46 oerjan: that's the one 23:47:55 @messages 23:48:13 But that seems to presume one-directional flow, wheras sound would alternate. 23:48:55 oerjan: but it's funnier with neutrinos 23:49:03 int-e: tru dat. 23:49:15 Dunno about making a fluedic rectifier. 23:49:47 You'd need really sensitive check valves, I guess? 23:50:14 Unless you're going for high amplitude subsonic waves. 23:50:24 In which case regular check valves. 23:50:49 pikhq probably doesn't like my plan to train a slime mold to climb in and then climb out and reproduce the shape, either <-- i don't see how anyone could possibly not love that hth 23:53:31 oerjan: it also reminded me of this: http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-03-23 23:56:28 [wiki] [[5command]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39696&oldid=39695 * Icepy * (+48)