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00:27:17 <Leb> !bfjoust loop ({<})%-1
00:27:27 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_loop: 0.0
00:44:49 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
00:45:00 <EgoBot> Score for FreeFull_Useless: 0.0
00:46:11 <Sgeo> There's a Charlie the Unicorn 4?!?
00:53:22 <Leb> !bfjoust loop ((()*-1)*-1{.}((((()*-1)*-1{.}(()*-1)*-1)%-1)*-1)*-1)%-1
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00:57:09 <MDude> There's a second one?
01:00:38 <Leb> ok, so he dealt with the first one by overflow, but nesting it means that solution is not fast enough.
01:01:11 <elliott> I see a simple solution :p
01:04:13 <Leb> yup, there is, but it's not implemented yet. Which means it's still going ( http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/breakdown.txt ), so I think that means someone needs to manually stop it before it's usable again
01:05:30 <Sgeo> Are there good languages [as an average #esoteric'er considers good languages, excluding me] that use co-operative multithreading where the points of possible loss of control are obvious?
01:12:48 <Leb> oh look, there's a simulator on http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/ . Hey, (()*-1)*-1 already takes forever. Yup, that definately needs a manual override.
01:12:58 <Leb> !bfjoust broken [
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01:14:19 <elliott> Sgeo: any language with coroutines
01:15:03 <Sgeo> elliott: but there's the kind where the yield etc. can be abstracted away behind a function call without any indication that that is the case... or is that called something else?
01:15:25 <elliott> Sgeo: so you want a language where you can't abstract?
01:15:41 <elliott> any language with coroutines and no functions or macros
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01:15:44 <Bike> wait, wait, i thought yield was usually a lexical thing
01:16:05 <elliott> of course usually something that yields will be a coroutine unto itself
01:16:14 <elliott> e.g., see Python's generators
01:17:02 <Sgeo> elliott: I want the abstraction but not the fact that it's yielding to be abstracted.... e.g. what Bike said as a requirement
01:17:15 <Sgeo> Which, Python's newer generators, Javascript generators, etc.
01:17:32 <elliott> I think a normal coroutine system satisfies your requirements if I understand them.
01:18:01 <elliott> look at, I don't know, Modula-2 or something
01:18:51 <Bike> you can do something like def foo: yield; def bar: foo()? man i haven't used python in a while
01:19:33 <elliott> Bike: def foo(): { yield None } means that foo() will be an object with a .next()
01:19:48 <elliott> (Python's syntax for this really sucks. "if you say yield in a function the whole thing is actually not the function it looks like")
01:20:03 <elliott> (it should at least be, like, "def gen foo():" or something.)
01:22:04 <Sgeo> Python used to suck worse with generators, though
01:22:26 <Sgeo> At least, I think it did, maybe I just didn't know how to abstract properly
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02:15:56 <Sgeo> elliott: what is a comment about Go doing in this?
02:15:57 <Sgeo> http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Sgeo/morgue-Sgeo-20120422-081744.txt
02:16:32 <elliott> the real question is why you fought a D:1 gnoll, as a transmuter, with a club
02:16:46 <elliott> wow I do not remember watching this game at all
02:17:39 <Sgeo> I don't remember playing it.
02:17:44 <elliott> ...the other real question is why you're looking at the log of a D:1 game from april two years ago
02:18:03 <Sgeo> Because it was my most recent
02:26:49 <Sgeo> Dungeon level 1
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02:33:32 <MDude> It's the first floor of a building called a Dungeon.
02:38:47 <int-e> Insei, well at least that would explain the Go angle.
02:39:57 <int-e> but good night, I'll probably dream of crazy p and n gates.
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02:51:58 <Leb> back. So, someone fixed the bfjoust bot?
02:52:16 <Leb> !bfjoust broken [
02:53:36 <elliott> I don't believe it was ever broken?
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02:57:26 <Leb> !bfjoust loop (()*-1)*-1
02:58:25 <Leb> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/breakdown.txt
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03:23:18 <MDude> Fungot, perform the action which fixes bfjoust bot.
03:23:59 <Sgeo> https://github.com/joyent/node/issues/1707
03:24:17 <MDude> I again ask fungot to perform the action which fixes bfjoustbot, presuming the name is in fact case sensitive.
03:24:17 <fungot> MDude: but what did you do this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 918
03:24:55 <MDude> Yes that lisp code must be able to fix it.
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03:51:45 <Sgeo> Apparently I am way too used to Python
03:52:11 <Sgeo> It's still annoying that var hasOwnProperty = Object.prototype.hasOwnProperty.call; itself needs .call on it
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04:09:02 <elliott> I'm surprised JS people haven't started using custom dictionary types.
04:09:07 <elliott> its objects are totally unsuited.
04:10:16 <Sgeo> There's going to be a Map type in ES6 I think
04:11:01 <Sgeo> "Key equality is based on the "same-value" algorithm: NaN is considered the same as NaN (even though NaN !== NaN) and all other values are considered equal according to the semantics of the === operator."
04:11:09 <Sgeo> So, yet another type of equality
04:16:35 <Sgeo> Anyways, I should at some point go implement my horrible hack to get do notation into Javascript
04:25:14 <elliott> float keys in a map are such a fantastic idea.
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05:46:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Warpdrive]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39777&oldid=39775 * Rdebath * (+153) No accessible infinite memory. => !TC
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06:45:11 <zzo38> I have idea, which would be, can it be done a kind of music compression (lossless, and compressing the note sequence, not the audio), such that nice classical-style music and other kind of nice music result in better compression?
06:55:13 <oerjan> <Leb> oh look, there's a simulator on http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/ . Hey, (()*-1)*-1 already takes forever. Yup, that definately needs a manual override. <-- pretty sure those don't use the same implementation.
07:06:42 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: well, something in the line of _The Complexity of Songs_ by Don Knuth?
07:07:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Warpdrive]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39778&oldid=39777 * Oerjan * (+25) that's a bit long to hide in an example
07:08:06 <oerjan> the songs of complexity
07:09:01 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: I have not heard of that.
07:29:06 <zzo38> Some C functions take a "reentrancy structure"; what is a reentrancy structure?
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07:35:03 <mroman> zzo38: joe loughry wrote back
07:35:27 <mroman> There's no official documentation of the BANCStar numerical language
07:36:06 <mroman> BANCStar was shipped with a BANCStar Generator which allowed you to create stuff
07:36:31 <mroman> however, the BANCStar Generator was not as powerful as the underlying numerical language
07:36:55 <mroman> which is why people started reverse engineering BANCSTar to be ablo to program in the numeric language to be able to do more powerful stuff
07:38:16 <mroman> He may be able to get the source code of his LIST tool he wrote back then
07:38:29 <mroman> (which appears to be some kind of "disassembler" for BANCStar)
07:38:39 <zzo38> mroman: That would be good; I would like the source code of the LIST tool if available.
07:38:47 <mroman> So you'd have to reverse engineer BANCSTar from LIST
07:38:54 <zzo38> (I knew what the LIST tool was once you mentioned it.)
07:39:53 <zzo38> And I knew that there was no documentation of the BANCStar numerical language. However, I was wondering if the screen generator or the BANCSTAR system itself had any documentation which can be made available.
07:40:27 <zzo38> More scanned pages of the program may also be helpful.
07:40:39 <diginet> are basically all compilers based on abstract syntax trees?
07:41:06 <zzo38> diginet: I don't think so
07:41:21 <diginet> zzo38: oh, really? interesting, do you know of any counterexamples?
07:42:06 <diginet> or more specifically in that case, (ignoring things like optimizations) do mostly all compilers which use ASTs work by walking the AST and "translating" the nodes from source to target language?
07:42:55 <zzo38> I don't know the answer to that. Some might do that without actually generating the AST.
07:43:29 <zzo38> (I believe SQLite does not generate the AST, although it otherwise does something similar. It compiles SQL into VDBE.)
07:44:34 <Bike> diginet: as opposed to what, operating "directly" on source text?
07:45:02 <Bike> most compiler operations don't have much to do with the syntax.
07:45:15 <diginet> Bike: I'm not sure actually, I can't really see any nice way to compile without an AST
07:45:38 <diginet> I guess the more important question is the second one
07:46:00 <zzo38> I know the OASYS compiler uses a recursive descent parser and generates the target code when the parser matches something.
07:46:32 <Bike> most of the time things aren't context-free enough for a simple "walk" to work. consider, like, that a C compiler has to remember forward declarations, that kind of thing.
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07:47:05 <mroman> Does one pass count as non-AST?
07:48:00 <mroman> I.e. you use a parser library that can call code if it matched IDENT `+=` INT SEMICOLON?
07:48:39 <zzo38> mroman: Won't a parser library generally do that, or am I missing something somehow?
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07:49:11 <zzo38> I know that yacc and Lemon can call code when matching, anyways.
07:49:59 <mroman> but Brainfuck should pretty much be compilable without a real tree
07:50:11 <zzo38> (I myself prefer Lemon; I don't know your own preferences.)
07:50:34 <zzo38> mroman: You would only need to keep track of loop nesting. You can use a stack for that, though
07:50:45 <mroman> zzo38: i would have used a stack for that, yeh
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07:51:09 <mroman> and do "jmp " ++ pop() on ]
07:51:24 <mroman> (or jiz, jnz whatever)
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07:52:20 <mroman> String replacement languages don't need a tree too I guess
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07:52:27 <mroman> you can compile them line by line
07:52:41 <mroman> and they have no "loop" other than after the last line you re-run it
07:52:56 <zzo38> Sometimes implementation of IF ... THEN and other block structures in Forth are also using the stack; it will create an empty cell and push the address when IF is compiled, and then pop it and store the current address at the popped address when THEN is compiled.
07:53:13 <mroman> and ASM probably doesn't need a tree too
07:53:47 <mroman> you just have to keep track of adresses and allocate enough space to insert jumps and adresses once you know them
07:54:52 <mroman> An assembler I wrote for my school project inserts LOAD32 R0, XXXX; JMP R0; and remembers that XXXXX has to be replaced by the address of label ZZZ
07:55:08 <mroman> and once it knows where that label is it will replace XXXX
07:56:46 <zzo38> (and ELSE does both)
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07:59:13 <mroman> I feel confident saying that not all compilers use ASTs. :)
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08:03:02 <mroman> That reminds me that I still haven't written a compiler for my language that targets x86
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09:09:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Stasis]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39779 * Rdebath * (+542) Too static ?
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09:28:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Stasis]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39780&oldid=39779 * Oerjan * (+187) Hm
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13:12:18 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
13:12:59 <EgoBot> 129 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>----. [378]
13:13:08 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
13:13:23 <scheurneus> !bf8 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>----.
13:13:35 <scheurneus> !bf32 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>----.
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13:21:59 <int-e> !bf8 ++++[>++++++++<-]>+>+[<.>[>+<-]>[<++>-]<]
13:22:02 <int-e> !bf16 ++++[>++++++++<-]>+>+[<.>[>+<-]>[<++>-]<]
13:22:36 <int-e> !bf32 ++++[>++++++++<-]>+>+[<.>[>+<-]>[<++>-]<]
13:27:30 <Melvar> Huh, so what does that mean?
13:28:42 <int-e> I was assuming brainfuck with N-bit cells.
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13:29:48 <Melvar> That was my guess as well, but it looks like no?
13:30:53 <int-e> hence "it cheats!"
13:31:31 <fizzie> Regarding the "-." output, that could well be brainfuck with N-bit cells and just . limited to 8-bit output.
13:32:13 <fizzie> A single 0xff byte is what came out both times, after all.
13:32:29 <int-e> well, what I did should have printed 8 and 16 exclamation marks, and a timeout.
13:34:23 <fizzie> Oh, a times-two loop. Yes, that's more like a proof.
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14:14:24 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bf16!
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15:54:37 <zzo38> Don't hate BC/AD because it is not corresponding precisely to Christ's birth; October also is not the eighth month. Don't hate BC/AD because it is religious; so are the month names and day of week names.
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15:57:08 <zzo38> Well, some people do, I think...
15:57:24 <maurer> You know what's worse than BC/AD? BCD.
15:57:32 <mroman> You know what's even worse
15:57:43 <mroman> Discrimination against left-handed people
15:57:49 <zzo38> Some people like to use the terms BCE and CE, which I find to be a bit more confusing
15:58:02 <mroman> "right" also means "lawful/good/correct"
15:58:17 <mroman> that's very discriminating against left-handed people
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15:58:58 <subleq> because left-handed people are the devil?
15:59:08 <zzo38> mroman: BCE = "before common era"
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16:00:53 <fizzie> Wikipedia uses CE/BCE as a matter of policy, doesn't it?
16:02:50 <olsner> I recall reading about that
16:02:54 <zzo38> fizzie: I don't know; I think I may have seen both (and I don't really have intention to change from one to the other, unless using both set of terms causes confusion?)
16:04:04 <fizzie> Perhaps it was just a proposal; I don't want to read through the entirety of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/BCE-CE_Debate to figure out.
16:04:28 <zzo38> I found it easily by typing WP:BCE
16:05:37 <zzo38> I agree with the things mentioned at WP:BCE
16:06:15 <fizzie> The BP notation was new for me.
16:07:25 <fizzie> I vaguely remember there's an Asimov story where the year "1 AE" is "the first year of Atomic Era", corresponding to 1945 AD/CE or something.
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16:13:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39781&oldid=37348 * Nucular * (+51) Added link to JsBP JavaScript VM
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16:21:20 <zzo38> Can the unary XOR in INTERCAL be used for converting a number into a Gray code?
16:25:10 <zzo38> I prefer astronomical year numbering rather than BC, AD, BCE, CE, AE, etc anyways
16:25:25 <zzo38> I think is more sensible
16:31:56 <Melvar> fizzie: IIRC Orion’s Arm numbers years from the first moon landing or something.
16:33:47 <Bike> the CE/AD argument is funny because it's like GODDAMN SECULARISTS, COUNTING FROM THE BIRTH OF JESUS
16:34:29 <nortti> actually, counting from a couple years after the bith of jesus
16:41:20 <zzo38> nortti: Yes, that is my first argument. Bike's is my second argument.
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16:51:39 <mroman> I prefer moon calendar
16:52:00 <mroman> It just makes more sense
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16:56:13 <zzo38> Use whatever calendar you want to, but Gregorian calendar is now the common one and you should know how to deal with it. (You may also deal with UNIX time)
16:57:53 <nortti> mroman: which moon calendar?
16:58:57 <zzo38> Yes, which moon calendar do you like?
17:00:10 <nortti> personally, I'd like a solar calendar of 13 months, with all but one being 28 days
17:00:22 <tswett> We should use a compromise calendar in which a month is half a lunar month plus one 24th of a solar year.
17:02:24 <tswett> Say, can every positive integer be written as a sum of distinct fractions 1/n where n is a positive integer?
17:02:41 <tswett> Yeah, it's gotta be possible.
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17:06:30 <zzo38> Yes I think it is true too
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17:08:01 <tswett> Oh shucks, the fact that R has no non-trivial field automorphisms is actually pretty easy to prove?
17:08:26 <tswett> Apparently every field automorphism of R must send positive numbers to positive numbers.
17:08:30 <zzo38> What are non-trivial field automorphisms?
17:08:40 <tswett> Field automorphisms that aren't the identity function.
17:09:36 <tswett> Why would it have to send positive numbers to positive numbers?
17:09:57 <tswett> Ooh. Because a number is positive if and only if it's a nonzero square.
17:12:07 <zzo38> In real numbers, yes I can see it must be
17:13:05 <tswett> Dang, here I was thinking that positivity wasn't really an algebraic property. But clearly it is.
17:13:30 <zzo38> Now it can be seen that it is!
17:13:40 <tswett> In the real numbers, at least.
17:13:57 <tswett> All right, let's simplify things. There are five numbers: 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4.
17:14:00 <zzo38> Yes, the property you mentioned is only for real numbers, clearly
17:14:33 <zzo38> O, so do you mean it is modulo five system?
17:14:41 <tswett> 1*1 = 1, 2*2 = 4, 3*3 = 4, and 4*4 = 1. So the positive numbers are 1 and 4.
17:14:58 <tswett> Of course, -1 = 4 and -2 = 3.
17:15:06 <tswett> So 1 and -1 are positive, while 2 and -2 are negative. Makes sense.
17:16:30 <tswett> I dunno, I think that doesn't make sense after all.
17:16:58 <zzo38> It does look a strange definition of "positive" and "negative"
17:17:20 <tswett> Okay, let's move up a bit. Seven numbers: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. 1*1 = 1, 2*2 = 4, 3*3 = 2, 4*4 = 2, 5*5 = 4, 6*6 = 1. So 1, 2, and 4 are positive. Meanwhile, -1 = 6, -2 = 5, and -4 = 3 are negative.
17:17:21 <zzo38> Although clearly it does have the properties you assert them to have in that context.
17:17:40 <tswett> I like having the property that the opposite of a positive number is negative and vice versa.
17:21:53 <tswett> The endomorphism ring of the multiplication group of Z7 is Z6. (Let's call that the "exponent ring" of Z7.)
17:22:37 <tswett> Z6 doesn't really have a multiplication group, since it has zero divisors. It has a multiplication monoid.
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17:29:25 <tswett> 'Course, Z7 has a multiplication monoid, too. Let's look at its endomorphisms.
17:30:09 <tswett> I guess the endomorphisms of the multiplication monoid are still the same. They're Z6.
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17:32:16 <tswett> How about the endomorphism ring of the multiplication monoid of Z6? Well, said monoid has identity element 1, and it's generated by 2, 3, and 5. Morphisms are fully determined by what they do to generators, aye?
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17:33:41 <tswett> Ooh, hang on. I think the multiplication monoid of Z7 actually has an extra endomorphism. There's one mapping 0 onto 0 and everything else onto 1, and one mapping everything onto 1.
17:37:43 <tswett> The former could be called 6 and the latter could be called 0. Then it's an un-quotient of Z6, where the only way to write 0 as a sum is as 0 + 0, and 0 * x is 0 for all x, and 6 * x is 6 for all non-0 x. Aye?
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17:43:28 <nooodl> <tswett> Say, can every positive integer be written as a sum of distinct fractions 1/n where n is a positive integer?
17:45:58 <b_jonas> nooodl: I think the answer is yes
17:46:15 <b_jonas> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_fractions
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18:10:21 <zzo38> How do I get rid of the warning to cast a pointer to a integer of a different size? In this specific case, I don't care if the size of a pointer is larger or smaller or equal to the size of long long integers.
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18:22:00 <int-e> zzo38: I don't know, does casting in two steps (via size_t) help?
18:22:21 <zzo38> int-e: Yes maybe that will help
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18:46:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39782&oldid=39730 * Rdebath * (+12) /* Current brainfuck extensions to go back to. */
18:47:06 <elliott> int-e: isn't intptr_t more appropriate
18:50:43 <oerjan> <int-e> well, what I did should have printed 8 and 16 exclamation marks, and a timeout. <-- shocking
19:00:38 <nooodl> maybe it's 16-bit brainfuck but with deadfish wrapping, where 256 goes back to 0!!
19:00:39 <oerjan> tswett: psst ordering doesn't make sense in fields of non-zero characteristic hth
19:00:59 <oerjan> which includes all finite ones
19:01:36 <oerjan> nooodl: does that wrapped deadfish come with chips
19:02:47 <oerjan> @tell tswett psst ordering doesn't make sense in fields of non-zero characteristic. which includes all finite ones hth
19:03:29 <tswett> Who says I want ordering?
19:03:36 <tswett> I'm fine with the sum of two positive numbers being negative.
19:07:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:09:06 <tswett> Ooh, great idea. Esolang where there are keywords defining program structure, but the keywords don't have to nest correctly.
19:10:46 <tswett> "if Ready then while Yellow do PokeSomething else RunAround endif EatCake endwhile"
19:11:09 <mroman> Doesn't Pascal have that?
19:11:22 <tswett> Not that I've heard of.
19:11:33 <tswett> Of course, Haskell has every possible control structure.
19:12:15 <zzo38> Haskell doesn't have any control structures; you can make it up instead, out of computable mathematics.
19:14:52 <tromp__> i'd say Haskell only has case ... of ... as control structure
19:14:55 <Bike> scheme doesn't have any control structures, you can make them yourself out of call/cc, lambdas, and arrogance
19:14:56 <nooodl> for case ... of { True -> ...; False -> ... }?
19:15:30 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> scheme doesn't have any control structures, you can make them yourself out of call/cc, lambdas, and arrogance
19:15:33 <HackEgo> 1205) <Bike> scheme doesn't have any control structures, you can make them yourself out of call/cc, lambdas, and arrogance
19:15:47 <shachaf> case-of is totally a control structure
19:16:31 <nooodl> i should figure out call/cc
19:16:36 <tswett> Case statements are definitely syntactic sugar.
19:16:55 <nooodl> it's really scary?? also the Cont monad
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19:17:33 <shachaf> nooodl: Cont seems less scary
19:18:11 <tswett> I think when I was playing with linear logic, I found that Cont, State, and Store are three vertices of a square.
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19:18:48 <zzo38> tswett: How does that work?
19:19:04 <tswett> State s a = s -> (s, a) and Store s a = (s, s -> a). So clearly there's a dual relationship there.
19:19:10 <tswett> Just swap the (s,) and the (s ->).
19:20:41 <tswett> Now, Cont s a = (a -> s) -> s. Using ~ to represent the dual operator and | to represent the par operator, (a -> s) -> s = ~(a -> s) | s = ~(~a | s) | s = (~~a, ~s) | s = (a, ~s) | s.
19:21:22 <tswett> Note that if you swap s and ~s, this becomes (a, s) | ~s = ~s | (a, s) = s -> (a, s), which is State.
19:21:34 <tswett> So Cont and State are also in a certain dual relationship.
19:22:03 <tswett> The fourth corner of the square is (~s, ~s -> a) or (~s, s | a).
19:22:24 <oerjan> i think State and Store are dual because they both arise from the same adjoint functors, but composed in opposite order. this is only possible because those functors are from Hask to itself. (at least this analogy works for Set.)
19:22:40 <tswett> oerjan: right. The same is true of Cont and this fourth corner, I believe.
19:23:11 <tswett> With State and Store, the functors are (s ->) and (s,). With Cont and the fourth corner, the corners are (s |) and (~s,).
19:23:30 <nooodl> okay Cont isn't very scary
19:23:34 <tswett> Of course, neither of those can be interpreted in Hask any more. I think.
19:23:38 <oerjan> with Cont the functors are being Hask and Hask^op, iirc
19:23:53 <oerjan> and so Cont is actually _self_-dual.
19:24:17 <nooodl> callCC isn't very scary either?? the yin-yang puzzle still is
19:24:21 <tswett> According to my linear logic, the dual of Cont is something other than Cont.
19:24:33 <oerjan> the dual is a comonad on Hask^op, which is a monad on Hask, which is Cont itself.
19:25:04 <tswett> It's not instantly obvious to me why the dual is a comonad on Hask^op.
19:25:33 <tswett> oerjan: can you tell me what the functors between Hask and Hask^op are?
19:25:35 <oerjan> tswett: when you have adjoint functors between categories A and B, you get a monad on A and a comonad on B.
19:25:46 <zzo38> I believe yin-yang is also implemented as one of the Unlambda example programs
19:26:06 <oerjan> i am not sure about that comonad part
19:26:25 <oerjan> this is all very vaguely recalled
19:26:34 <tswett> But do you remember what functors Cont decomposes into?
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19:27:15 <oerjan> Cont r a = Cont ((a -> r) -> r), the functors are both (a -> r)
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19:28:26 <tswett> Then what I'm doing is a different decomposition of what's really a different monad that I'm writing the same way for the sake of confusion.
19:30:26 <tswett> But my monad could also be decomposed your way.
19:30:33 <tswett> But my decomposition is into covariant functors.
19:31:09 <tswett> Of course, I'm using linear logic operators, meaning my decomposition has to be interpreted in a...
19:31:14 <tswett> One of those categories you can interpret linear logic in.
19:31:16 <oerjan> maybe linear logic is its own opposite category or something...
19:31:50 <tswett> A symmetric monoidal category ATWP.
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19:32:14 <tswett> According to Wikipedia.
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19:32:38 <zzo38> Monad can also be made from Free, Codensity, CodensityAsk, etc, for example Cont r = Codensity (Const r) and Either x = CodensityAsk (Traced x) and so on.
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19:33:09 <zzo38> And also, [] = Codensity Endo
19:33:13 <tswett> Unfortunately, I don't know what Codensity, Const, CodensityAsk, and Traced are.
19:33:15 <oerjan> `` echo According to Wikipedia, ATWP means nothing. >wisdom/atwp
19:33:50 <zzo38> tswett: Then you must learn.
19:34:15 <oerjan> i suppose that's not entirely true.
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19:34:53 <oerjan> but air transport white paper doesn't have its own article, at least.
19:35:39 <zzo38> There is also Co, which can make a monad (or a monad transformer) from a comonad.
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19:40:02 <oerjan> scott aaronson about being interviewed about that turing test thing "Luckily, while an experienced judge could easily distinguish me from an AI researcher, I only needed to simulate one for a few minutes of banter."
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20:27:15 <int-e> elliott: funny, I was going to suggest intptr_t myself but then got distracted while looking for whether the C standard actually has that type. (C99 does, as an optional type in stdint.h)
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20:45:40 <Leb> !bfjoust is-it-fixed? (.)*-1
20:50:11 <elliott> it's not going to be fixed unless you ping Gregor.
20:51:26 <Leb> !bfjoust breakdown-says-parsing-error-on-program-not-on-report (.)*-1
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20:56:13 <Leb> I don't understand how the hill works. The Egobot source link gives error 500, so that's no help.
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20:56:45 <zzo38> Then Gregor should fix that probably
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21:05:33 <fizzie> Out of curiosity, does it do any good if you replace Leb_broken with something that's not broken?
21:06:26 <oerjan> fizzie: i bet you could fix it, right?
21:06:34 <fizzie> I don't know anything about it.
21:06:59 <oerjan> oh wait it's EgoBot not HackEgo. are they on the same host?
21:07:09 <fizzie> That didn't stop me from fixing HackEgo that one time, but still. The web parts at least don't run on the machine I can access, as far as I know.
21:07:41 <fizzie> And apparently the bot isn't, either.
21:07:43 <oerjan> well but !bfjoust itself is not giving any response.
21:08:36 <Leb> it is generating the breakdown, just not answering back on irc
21:09:43 <fizzie> Based on few /whoises, EgoBot is on the same box with glogbot, which is a different one than HackEgo and the wiki.
21:10:09 <fizzie> So I don't think I can be of any help.
21:10:37 -!- edwardk has joined.
21:11:29 <Leb> oh, my "loop" is still in "in_egobot", so maybe it's getting locked there.
21:12:45 <fizzie> I was under the impression that was fixed.
21:13:12 <fizzie> At least, it is fixed in newer versions of the foolance code, but maybe the hill hasn't been updated.
21:13:51 <fizzie> (Newer ones remove loops that take no cycles.)
21:14:14 <fizzie> You can (probably) overwrite your "loop" by resubmitting something else.
21:14:37 <fizzie> With the same name, I mean.
21:15:56 <Taneb> Engaging in a bit of Pair Programming yay
21:16:03 <Taneb> Enterprise, agile, what have you
21:16:21 <fizzie> Getting all scrummy, eh?
21:16:46 -!- tswett_ has joined.
21:17:07 <tswett_> I should totally implement object-oriented programming in Coq.
21:17:43 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: bye).
21:18:50 <Taneb> tswett_, yes you should
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21:22:15 <tswett_> A class is simply a "state" type along with a directed acyclic graph of methods, where each method is a function taking the state and all methods pointing at it and some parameters and returning the new state and the return value.
21:23:27 <tswett_> Subclassing just means creating a new class that happens to implement the interface of the old class.
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21:33:40 <Leb> !bfjoust loop lets see if this fixes it.
21:33:45 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_is-it-fixed_: 5.7
21:33:45 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_broken: 0.0
21:33:46 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_breakdown-says-parsing-error-on-program-not-on-report: 5.7
21:33:46 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_loop: 5.7
21:33:46 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_broken: 0.0
21:33:46 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_loop: 5.7
21:33:46 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_loop: 5.7
21:33:47 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_wat: 0.0
21:34:16 <oerjan> well that was efficient.
21:35:33 <Leb> !bfjoust clear-the-breakdown-please .
21:35:36 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_clear-the-breakdown-please: 6.1
21:36:27 <tswett_> OOP is silly and shouldn't be implemented in Coq.
21:36:33 <fizzie> The "loop problem" has been fixed since Mar 23, 2013; the running code could really do with an update.
21:37:07 <oerjan> fizzie: right after Gregor updates to Quintopia's scoring method, i take.
21:37:27 <tswett_> So, what's the best syntax for multi-line comments? Is it {- -}? Is it (* *)? Is it <!-- -->?
21:37:58 <oerjan> tswett_: -- (comment here) (more comment here) hth
21:38:21 <tswett_> oerjan: the good ol' "pound sign on every line" multi-line comment syntax?
21:38:38 <oerjan> tswett_: what pound sign
21:39:31 -!- boily has joined.
21:40:04 <oerjan> but no. there's only a -- at the beginning, followed by as many multi-line parenthesized (with correct nesting) comments as you want.
21:40:09 -!- metasepia has joined.
21:40:13 <metasepia> The "CYUL" ICAO airport code corresponds to MontralPierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport in Dorval, Quebec, Canada and the IATA code is "YUL."
21:40:25 <fungot> boily: and you can't tell the difference via text.
21:40:39 <metasepia> CYUL 092100Z 36008G15KT 30SM FEW060 FEW120 SCT240 27/12 A2993 RMK SC1AC1CI3 SC TR AC TR SLP134 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
21:40:52 <boily> my brain. it is overheating.
21:40:59 <metasepia> ENVA 092120Z 01003KT 9999 FEW020 13/10 Q1023 RMK WIND 670FT 30004KT
21:41:01 <boily> just did one sunny bike ride.
21:41:22 <boily> TIL under natural sunlight, I can't tell the difference between a duck.
21:42:19 * tswett_ reads a paper about two-dimensional programming languages.
21:42:23 <elliott> boily: thank you for that ping.
21:42:29 -!- oerjan has set topic: Please don't mind boily, he has a sun stroke | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
21:43:14 <boily> elliott: oh hi! :D
21:43:38 <boily> nortti: you know, one leg is both the same.
21:43:55 -!- oerjan has set topic: Please don't mind boily, he has a sun stroke and is not insane at all | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
21:44:54 <tswett_> This paper was published in 1972.
21:44:56 <tswett_> I hope it's still relevant.
21:45:08 <Bike> several people published in 1972 are still relevant
21:46:07 <tswett_> When boily says he did a "bike ride", does he mean he was riding a bike or he was riding Bike?
21:46:26 <oerjan> also, my ability to guess which english compounds are written in one word fails again
21:47:27 <boily> tswett_: I haven't ever physically seen any #esotëric member, except Roujo. I haven't mailed any member, except Quintopia. Bike is quite far from here.
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21:49:42 <tswett_> So, it's not all too obvious how two-dimensional syntaxes would be defined.
21:50:13 <Taneb> You'd need two-dimensional lexical tokens
21:50:21 <Taneb> Lexical jigsaw puzzle pieces
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21:51:39 <tswett_> Okay. I'm thinking that the notion of a string would be replaced by the notion of a box. Concatenation would be replaced by juxtaposition.
21:51:47 <tswett_> Whitespace outside of tokens would always be considered insignificant.
21:51:54 <zzo38> I also don't know how would you make a two-dimensional tokenizer?
21:52:08 <tswett_> I.e. a box juxtaposed with a blank box is equivalent to the original box.
21:52:19 <Bike> i believe that is the topic of a good amount of computer vision :p
21:52:23 <boily> zzo38: bilinear interpolation?
21:52:42 <tswett_> We get ambiguity pretty quickly.
21:53:10 <tswett_> Suppose you have an "a" in the upper left and a "b" in the upper right. Is that an "a" box above a "b" box or an "a" box to the left of a "b" box?
21:54:27 <Bike> ~math problems~
21:54:27 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
21:55:24 <Bike> ~echo punk motherfucker with a badge and a gun
21:55:24 <metasepia> punk motherfucker with a badge and a gun
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21:58:33 <nortti> you might want to fix that
21:58:41 <boily> in the next version!
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21:58:53 <boily> (you know, the one that is coming real soon now >_>...)
21:59:07 <nortti> otherwise, this would be bad: ^echo ~echo ^echo
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21:59:11 <tswett_> Dare I say ^echo ~echo ^echo?
21:59:40 <tswett_> ^echo Like, I assume fungot just says whatever twice?
21:59:40 <fungot> Like, I assume fungot just says whatever twice? Like, I assume fungot just says whatever twice?
22:00:16 <tswett_> I'm not going to say ^echo ~echo ^echo, then.
22:00:20 <shachaf> @where+ test ~echo @run 123
22:00:49 <tswett_> But I'd like to see someone else try it.
22:01:14 <shachaf> @where+ test ~echo @where test
22:01:14 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
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22:01:53 <fungot> ~echo ^echo ~echo ^echo
22:01:54 -!- tswett_ has joined.
22:02:08 <Taneb> nortti, fungot has an ignore list
22:02:12 <tswett_> My Internet connection isn't working that well.
22:02:15 <tswett_> I guess I should get a job so I can move out and have wired Internet.
22:02:48 <tswett_> I'm totally disappointed by how nobody is saying ^echo ~echo ^echo.
22:02:55 <fungot> ~echo ^echo ~echo ^echo
22:03:06 <nortti> 01:02 < tswett_> I'm totally disappointed by how nobody is saying ^echo ~echo ^echo. <-- 01:01 < nortti> ^echo ~echo ^echo
22:03:10 <boily> nortti said it first, but you were in a disappeared state.
22:03:40 <nortti> had forgotten to account for fungot's better bot-ignoring
22:03:41 <fungot> nortti: fun, but it seems like it gives me t too with the others
22:04:01 <nortti> fungot: yes, that's why it is called the whole alphabet
22:04:01 <fungot> nortti: i'm using 203, and want the fnord formatting
22:04:01 <tswett_> LA PREGUNTA ES: why didn't fungot obey the second command, exactly?
22:04:02 <fungot> tswett_: it works flawlessly on powerpc slackware ( fnord). not sure what difference that would have given: roma, turt, iipc, trds, imap or mode
22:05:29 * boily appends a chocolate chip cookie to fungot
22:05:30 <fungot> boily: when emacs is rewritten? i thought about
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22:16:04 <oerjan> tswett_: metasepia is on fungot's ignore list.
22:16:04 <fungot> oerjan: since they didn't have methods?' en osaa mihin muotoon pitää laittaa be late
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23:25:39 <zzo38> I wrote a C library to parse ZCDSF now, although it still contains a few mistakes.
23:26:36 <zzo38> shachaf: It is documented at http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/zcdsf.txt
23:29:04 <zzo38> (The name was suggested by someone else; I abbreviated it.)
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23:31:58 <Quintopia> please do tell what was going on with egobot
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23:37:20 <Leb> the bfjoust thing? I sent (()*-1)*-1
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23:42:17 <Quintopia> fizzie corrected and submitted to gregor a fix to gearlance
23:43:14 <Quintopia> let's all go to gregor's house and sleep on his couch and floor until he fixes it
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