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00:03:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TOD]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39800&oldid=39720 * Null * (-2)
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00:56:58 <Taneb> http and https don't seem to be working
00:57:23 <boily> the protocol itself, or you can't resolve?
00:57:49 <Taneb> Well, just chrome can't connect
01:00:33 <boily> kill chrome, gently power-toggle your router, stare at your modem, and launch firefox.
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01:04:36 <boily> meanwhile, finns are weird → http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg
01:06:26 <boily> (now, where is our resident finn when we need him?)
01:08:23 <boily> @tell fizzie YKSI! YKSI! YKSI!
01:14:06 <Taneb> boily, I slightly have no control of my router
01:14:15 <Taneb> I don't even know where it is
01:15:05 <boily> I suppose you don't have a small EMP device with you?
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01:22:37 <boily> the Mystery of the Possession of Magnetical Pulsing Machines shall be Resolved in the Next Episode. it is time to understand my mattress.
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01:30:42 <elliott> like you can't seriously be one person so interested in this channel over many many months??
01:31:36 <elliott> maybe all these "canaima"s are users of http://canaima.softwarelibre.gob.ve/
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01:35:32 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
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03:47:17 <zzo38> Do you know if ecliptic coordinates are fixed yet in Wolfram|Alpha?
04:37:09 <Bicyclidine> http://www.fang.ece.ufl.edu/reject.html this can't be real, can it
04:39:00 <shachaf> http://th.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/People/Lucks/reject.pdf
04:39:07 <elliott> The author mentions computing machines, such as the recent ENIAC. Well, I guess one could connect such machines, but a recent IBM memo stated that a dozen or so such machines will be sufficient for all the computing that we'll ever need in the foreseeable future, so there won't be a whole lot of connecting going on with only a dozen ENIACs!
04:39:33 <Bicyclidine> i was mostly thinking nobody would be dumb enough to think you need gotos for an if with multiple statements
04:39:39 <Bicyclidine> and it just got more obvious as i went down
04:40:04 <Bicyclidine> but, i've never receieved a letter about a paper, and actual papers can be really fucking bizarre, so who's to know
04:46:09 <Sgeo> I don't know what the C.A.R. Hoare thing relates to
04:53:33 <Sgeo> "It is always good practice to name your behavior with an alias that is the same as the callback module it is implemented in."
04:53:37 <Sgeo> http://aosabook.org/en/riak.html
04:53:48 <Sgeo> I'm confused. Doesn't that make the server effectively a global variable?
04:54:22 <Sgeo> "registering the process with the same name as the callback module,"
04:54:27 <Sgeo> It doesn't say to always do that
04:54:51 <Sgeo> But I still don't get how registered gen_server processes are any different from global mutable variables
04:57:12 <zzo38> Is this sensible? Can you draw it in diagramatic notation? outtext : () / ($1(iosys), $2(string) |- $3(++)); outtext = [io,s,z] cut true [t] fold s t z [ch,_,k] outbyte io ch k;
04:58:36 <Sgeo> "Note that validating the data sent to the server should occur on the client side. If the client sends incorrect information, the server should terminate."
04:58:59 <Sgeo> I know it's Erlang with crash early and the client itself is more trusted. But still, those are not words I expect to read
05:00:02 <Sgeo> crash early crash often
05:00:47 <zzo38> Someone once told me about a program that never crash because it did everything it needed to do in the time it took for the watchdog timer to run out, and then it just restarted automatically.
05:14:09 <zzo38> How can you add a new symbol to a logic together with a proof such that, assuming the system is consistent, that adding this symbol and the rules to go with it will not admit any new theorems which do not involve this symbol?
05:16:33 <zzo38> Furthermore, how can you make this proof to do stuff like a computer program does?
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05:27:05 <Bicyclidine> hm, what would a counterexample be? you could add a new reduction rule that reduces an expression of original symbols that wasn't reduced originally to something involving the new symbol
05:27:49 <Bicyclidine> on the other hand, you can't just ban all rules that do that, because then another rule might take it back to original symbols... except that reduction still wouldn't be in the original
05:43:51 <zzo38> I do not quite understand you.
05:49:43 <Bicyclidine> thinking more i don't think it's relevant to what you actually meant, souree
05:55:05 <zzo38> Perhaps that is why I do not understand.
05:57:36 <Bicyclidine> my mind's stuck in orgo, i'm thinking of shit like alkoxymercurationdemercuration where you throw some weird bullshit like merc(ii) acetate at a hydrocarbon but just get an ether out
05:59:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39801&oldid=39707 * Zzo38 * (+140)
06:00:36 <Bicyclidine> so, like, you're adding a reduction scheme that uses a novel intermediate but can still start and end with CHO
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07:55:26 <Taneb> The grand final for a programming competition my university has ran is today!
07:57:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bad: not found
07:57:30 <HackEgo> 193) <elliott> Getting bad programmers to like something is a failure.
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08:26:31 <shachaf> http://oeis.org/search?q=1%2C3%2C11%2C42%2C163
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08:37:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Th]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39802 * T.J.S.1 * (+2566) Suggested additions for turing-completeness.
08:37:28 <ion> Binary Metal http://youtu.be/dYBZMRWcEBk
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08:47:06 <HackEgo> [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
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08:48:49 <Taneb> Do you know whether Lisp's list comprehensions are turing complete?
08:49:00 <oerjan> i do not know lisp's list comprehensions.
08:49:10 <b_jonas> "Lisp's list comprehensions"?
08:49:39 <Taneb> A friend has suggested they may be turing complete
08:49:40 <b_jonas> do you mean python's or haskell's list comprehensions?
08:49:44 <Taneb> But I do not know them at all
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08:49:58 <Taneb> b_jonas, no, specifically Lisp's
08:50:40 <oerjan> unless they contain some unusual feature my hunch is no.
08:51:04 <oerjan> ordinary list comprehensions is a very primitive recursive thing, i think.
08:51:25 <b_jonas> which lisp? let me check cltl
08:52:50 <Taneb> I am afraid I do not know
08:53:03 <oerjan> BET YOUR FRIEND MADE IT UP HTH
08:53:21 <b_jonas> cltl doesn't seem to mention "comprehension"
08:54:11 <oerjan> Taneb: did you know that "prod" isn't very googleable hth
08:54:28 <Taneb> I was prodding qlkzy
08:54:34 <Taneb> He is the friend in question
08:54:58 * oerjan ogles qlkzy suspiciously
08:59:46 <oerjan> <int-e> zzo38: haskell started out with "monad comprehensions", [...] <-- no, list comprehensions came first, before monads were on the table. then there was an intermediate stage.
08:59:59 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> zzo38: haskell started out with "monad comprehensions", [...] <-- no, list comprehensions came first, before monads were on the table. then there was an intermediate stage.
09:01:22 <oerjan> "Burstall and Darlington's work with NPL influenced many functional programming languages during the 1980s, but not all included list comprehensions. An exception was the influential pure lazy functional programming language Miranda, which was released in 1985. The subsequently developed standard pure lazy functional language Haskell includes many of Miranda's features, including list comprehensions."
09:01:47 <myname> what the hell is monad comprehension
09:02:58 <oerjan> myname: you know how list comprehensions in haskell are equivalent in sugariness to the do-notation for the list monad? just do that transformation backwards for an arbitrary monad.
09:03:40 <oerjan> [ e1 | x <- e2, y <- e3 ] = do x <- e2; y <- e3; return e1
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09:05:08 <oerjan> enabled in ghc with {-# LANGUAGE MonadComprehensions #-}
09:07:40 <oerjan> there are also some linq-/sql-like additions for lists, which iirc have been extended to use monadic classes as well
09:09:03 <oerjan> > [ x+y | x <- Just 2, y <- Just 3 ]
09:09:04 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[t]’
09:09:05 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Data.Maybe.Maybe a0’Couldn't match expected ty...
09:09:05 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Data.Maybe.Maybe a1’
09:09:05 <lambdabot> Relevant bindings include x :: t (bound at <interactive>:1:9)
09:10:21 <oerjan> oh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_comprehension#Common_Lisp looks relevant
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09:15:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NybbleScrambler]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39803 * Javamannen * (+1887) This is an idea for a very simple single-instruction (OISC) CPU.
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09:28:50 <b_jonas> ais523: also, you kept mentioning cyclic tag systems, and how either two stacks or a single queue is enough for turing-completeness.
09:29:18 <ais523> b_jonas: yeah, although it's not quite that simpel
09:29:24 <b_jonas> and now I've read a book which explains this about complexity theory (in a somewhat more precise way)
09:29:32 <b_jonas> and I think I understand it better now,
09:29:41 <ais523> you can invent a language with all sorts of memory access, but it's no good if it, say, doesn't have loops, or doesn't have a way to read the memory
09:29:42 <b_jonas> further, it also explained something I didn't understand:
09:29:57 <ais523> it's just in my "heuristics for guessing whether a language is probably Turing-complete"
09:30:00 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> meanwhile, finns are weird → http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg <-- one super-delicious ice cream hth
09:30:11 <b_jonas> it tells why the Post correspondence problem is undecidable.
09:30:22 <Taneb> b_jonas, Fueue is a fun language that is turing-complete with just a queue
09:30:53 <b_jonas> the reason is that the Post correspondance problem is just a machine with a single queue, except that it has only one state so the step can only depend on the unqueued elements, and it's nondeterministic,
09:31:06 <Taneb> I suppose you could treat Fueue as a complicated cyclic tag system?
09:31:09 <ais523> actually, I'd stop short of saying one queue is usually enough for Turing-completeness, I'd put the Turing-completeness of queue-based languages at "often"
09:31:19 <oerjan> Taneb: it's queue elements are actually rather over-powered for tc-ness, though
09:31:47 <oerjan> as in, they're not precisely symbols in an alphabet
09:31:54 <b_jonas> so it can simulate anything with a quadratic slowdown. the lack of state is no theoretical problem, though it might practically make it slower.
09:32:23 <b_jonas> ais523: and of course, I know it's just "often", not precise statements
09:33:30 <ais523> two stacks is more at the "usually" point
09:33:47 <oerjan> otoh to make do with only symbols in an alphabet you might need a program separate from the queue (or do you? i don't think i've seen any proof)
09:34:37 <b_jonas> It also told a bit about counter machines (equivalently pushdown automaton with multiple stacks where the stacks can contain only one symbol):
09:34:54 <shachaf> ais523: so is your thesis thing released or how does it all work
09:35:15 <b_jonas> I'm not sure I understand it correctly, but I think a counter machine with three (or more, unlimited) counters can simulate anything in exponential time,
09:35:27 <b_jonas> a counter machine with two counters can simulate anything in double-exponential time,
09:35:54 <ais523> shachaf: what do you mean by my "thesis thing"? my thesis is about lots of things
09:35:55 <b_jonas> and it said something about one counter being equivalent to a pushdown automaton, but I'm not sure I read that part right.
09:36:08 <ais523> wait, I have a meeting, I'll be back in a bit
09:37:30 <Taneb> Hang on, so, is like a... push-up? automaton turing complete?
09:38:03 <Taneb> Like a push-down automaton but with a queue
09:39:01 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think one counter is no stronger than a push-down automaton, but not strong enough to emulate _every_ pd automaton
09:39:02 <b_jonas> with a queue, yes, but I don't think that would be called push-up
09:39:36 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's clearly not stronger than a push-down automaton, because it's basically a push-down automaton that can have just one kind of symbol in its stack
09:40:59 <b_jonas> as for simulating any push-down automaton, I'm not sure I understood that right. I'm not even sure if it was supposed to be about deterministic or non-deterministic counter machine, and deterministic or non-deterministic pushdown automaton. I'll have to re-read,
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09:41:15 <b_jonas> and if it isn't clear, I may have to read another book, but more likely I won't care.
09:41:32 <oerjan> the other part is slightly subtler. actually not much though - if you ever get a loop that doesn't shrink the counter overall, without passing through 0, you're doomed to never halt
09:41:49 <b_jonas> I don't find these exponential time simulations too useful. In fact, I don't even like the quadratic slowdown simulations. I want quasi-linear.
09:41:53 <oerjan> (loop to the same state)
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09:44:30 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think even emulating a RAM machine with a turing machine has more slowdown than that?
09:44:52 <b_jonas> oerjan: it has a quadratic slowdown, yes.
09:45:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: that's why I don't like turing machines, and don't like how they (and string substitution machines and similar) has become sort of the most common model people invoke about computability
09:45:29 <b_jonas> I prefer pointer machines and similar
09:46:23 <b_jonas> luckily, for NP-completeness and stuff, people more often refer to SAT and variants, which are equivalent to RAM machines and all sane variants of pointer machines and combinator calculus etc up to juts a quasi-linear factor.
09:47:06 <b_jonas> SAT is equivalent to a _nondeterministic_ ram machine or pointer machine really
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09:49:26 <oerjan> @tell elliott <elliott> maybe all these "canaima"s are users of http://canaima.softwarelibre.gob.ve/ <-- ooh the mystery starts unraveling
09:52:07 <oerjan> "The operating system has gained a strong foothold and is one of the most used Linux distributions in Venezuela, largely because of its incorporation in public schools."
09:52:12 <b_jonas> any news on BANCStar by the way?\
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09:54:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39804&oldid=39755 * Javamannen * (+23) NybbleScrambler
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09:55:26 * oerjan doesn't remember if b_jonas has been paying attention the rest of the week, if not then yes.
09:56:27 <oerjan> see the discussions between zzo38 and mroman.
09:58:00 <b_jonas> the discussions between zzo38 and mroman were about the Monty hall problem and similar
09:58:46 <oerjan> ...go further back then
09:59:05 <oerjan> i could possibly be confusing mroman with someone else.
09:59:08 <b_jonas> I think I did read that then.
09:59:21 <b_jonas> Ok, so no new discuessions since.
09:59:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NybbleScrambler]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39805&oldid=39803 * Javamannen * (+2)
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10:09:24 * ais523 tried to tab-complete the "back" as well as the "shachaf"
10:12:04 <ais523> shachaf: my thesis is currently about finite-state systems
10:12:29 <ais523> what exactly it's about changes over time as I try to find an appropriate subset of my research that's internally consistent and doesn't have too many dependencies on things that don't exist
10:12:50 <ais523> like, writing about hardware would be nice, but there aren't any sufficiently good formalisms of delay-insensitive asynchronous hardware yet
10:12:56 <ais523> and I doubt I'll have time before the deadline to make one myself
10:14:40 <HackEgo> 566) <monqy> bad people have feelings too <monqy> but they're bad <monqy> so it's okay \ 826) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> [...] "avoid success at all costs" \ 1169) <zzo38> C and C++ have some bad features compared to BLISS. <zzo38> Although C doe
10:15:22 <Taneb> `quote with clients
10:15:23 <HackEgo> 434) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud.
10:16:25 <Taneb> I need to do that again
10:16:34 <HackEgo> 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler
10:16:43 <oerjan> yes, you should never give up your evil overlord dreams
10:17:02 <int-e> Oh, CaSe InSeNsItIvE.
10:17:19 <oerjan> `` allquotes | grep PR
10:17:20 <HackEgo> 434) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud. \ 718) <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL \ 826) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> [...] "avoid succes
10:18:13 <int-e> `` allquotes | grep PR | shuf
10:18:14 <HackEgo> 718) <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL \ 826) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> [...] "avoid success at all costs" \ 434) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say
10:18:40 <oerjan> `` allquotes | grep PR | wc
10:19:02 <Taneb> Is that lines/words/characters?
10:19:42 * Melvar discovers that, like do, Idris’ comprehensions will happily use whatever (>>=) and return fit.
10:20:40 <oerjan> idris, the language with haskelly type classes _and_ overloading madness
10:20:51 <Melvar> ( run $ the ({ [EXCEPTION String] } Eff (Either String) Integer) $ [ the Integer (x * y) | x <- pure 2, y <- raise "no" ]
10:22:13 <Melvar> I am going to guess it will also use whatever guard fits.
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10:24:01 <Taneb> !python print range(10)
10:24:04 <EgoBot> [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
10:24:30 <Taneb> Sweet, I know idris now
10:26:26 <Melvar> ( run $ the ({ [EXCEPTION String] } Eff (Either String) Integer) $ [ x * y | x <- pure 2, y <- raise "no" ]
10:26:52 <Melvar> Apparently in that case the one full type suffices.
10:34:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39806&oldid=39783 * B jonas * (+1713)
10:35:09 <nooodl> ( the ((a : Type) -> a -> a) the
10:35:25 <b_jonas> ok, I wrote up as much as I understood from the conversations and the github stuff
10:39:05 <oerjan> oh duh you were the one making the article
10:39:12 * oerjan needs a working memory
10:45:13 <b_jonas> oerjan: no need for memory, just use a computer for that
10:46:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39807&oldid=39806 * GreyKnight * (+134)
10:57:33 <b_jonas> oh, linux 3.15 is released. so now we're definitely past version pi.
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12:12:39 <myname> what is the prevailing opinion about specifying stuff on other peoples languages in the wiki?
12:14:16 <oerjan> well i've done that, but in very small doses.
12:15:40 <oerjan> (like deciding Itflabtijtslwi's EOF convention)
12:17:01 <oerjan> you should be pretty sure the language doesn't have a more specific definition or implementation outside the wiki...
12:18:54 <oerjan> and preferably that it's not currently being worked on by its author
12:19:19 <myname> so, generally speaking: if you come by with the first implementation you may decide? :D
12:19:45 <oerjan> little details, anyway.
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12:35:25 <oerjan> of course if the author is around here, it cannot hurt to ask.
12:35:47 <oerjan> (i assume you wouldn't be asking this then, though)
12:42:17 <mroman> myname: Mark it at least as your specification
12:42:37 <mroman> i.e. say it's a variant of the original author's specification
12:43:00 <mroman> like Foobar -> call your's Foobar+ or something
12:43:33 <mroman> I wouldn't just change someone else's language
12:44:08 <mroman> If you write a detailed enough specification you can submit as an ESOSC Draft :P
12:44:57 <oerjan> i disagree if it's about something which makes the original language unimplementable unless it's specified.
12:45:00 <myname> if i'd get ESOSC i may dovthat
12:45:16 <oerjan> rather than an actual extension
12:46:05 <myname> what about "there are implementations that do X whereas others do Y"?
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12:46:36 <oerjan> myname: you could just make a section about your implementation, describing its choices
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12:52:01 <myname> that stuff that was floating around here just confused me
12:52:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39808&oldid=39798 * GermanyBoy * (+824) fibonacci
13:03:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39809&oldid=39808 * GermanyBoy * (-12) /* Tape via stacks */ fix
13:10:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39810&oldid=39809 * GermanyBoy * (-135) /* Tape via stacks */ format and removed unnecessary code
13:23:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39811&oldid=39807 * FireFly * (+1631) Add tables for instruction opcodes, add section about conditionals
13:24:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39812&oldid=39811 * FireFly * (-2) /* Arithmetic instructions = */ Oops
13:27:36 <b_jonas> FireFly: is the statement I wrote about the implementation and old floppy right? I'm not sure I understood the irc discussion correctly
13:29:45 <b_jonas> maybe we'll find BANCStar commands for displaying tiles and sprites and collision detection
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13:52:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39813&oldid=39810 * GermanyBoy * (+166) /* Built-in classes */ toString
13:55:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39814&oldid=39813 * GermanyBoy * (+793) /* Linked list */ a new data structure
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14:17:55 <mroman> If you know a pair of inverses mod m you also get a second pair of inverses for free
14:18:02 <mroman> that's a neat trick I wasn't aware of until now
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14:24:44 <Jafet> It's the shipping charges that really get you.
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14:42:55 <mroman> Do we know something about (a*s) `mod` (a*b)?
14:44:13 <nooodl> sounds = a * (s `mod` b)
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15:02:57 <mroman> Do we know something about the inverse of m in mod phi(m)?
15:04:01 <mroman> I suspect it's always 1
15:04:25 <mroman> but I don't beleive that for sure
15:05:27 <mroman> m mod phi(m) is 1 anyway
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15:07:58 <tromp__> most m are not relatively prime to phi(m), so have no inverse
15:08:44 <tromp__> this includes all even m>2, and all m with a square divisor
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15:44:33 <mroman> this script here is even wrong
15:44:42 <mroman> that doesn't hold forall m
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15:49:07 <nooodl> if i'm reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler's_theorem right, you can only be sure of this when gcd(a,m)=1
15:49:39 <tromp__> so it holds for all m and all relatively prime a
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16:00:46 <nooodl> https://www.dropbox.com/s/dsmndtrg4fuwmrg/2014-06-12%2017.58.26.jpg not the most useful page in my biology textbook
16:06:06 <mroman> 6^(phi(8)) mod 8 is zero for example
16:09:43 <mroman> of course it holds for m where m is prime
16:09:50 <mroman> because then it's essentially fermat's theorem
16:13:19 <mroman> are there finite groups that don't have at least one cyclic subgroup?
16:14:10 <mroman> are there even non-cyclic finite groups
16:18:07 <mroman> which would mean that there are finite groups G that have no element g with order |G|
16:19:35 <mroman> every element g produces a subgroup S where |G| = order of g?
16:20:13 <mroman> so every finite group has at least one cyclic subgroup
16:20:20 <mroman> maybe even one where |S|=1
16:20:31 <mroman> trivially S={e} is always a cyclic subgroup?
16:20:37 <int-e> only cyclic groups G have elements with ord(g) = |G|.
16:21:23 <int-e> For finite groups G and primes p, if p | |G| then G has at least one element of order p.
16:21:40 <mroman> it's actually even p^n | |G|
16:22:54 <int-e> Sylow's theorem (which you probably have in mind) talks about a subgroup, not an element.
16:23:11 <int-e> (his first theorem, that is)
16:24:21 <mroman> int-e: I had sylow in mind
16:24:52 <mroman> doesn't there's a subgroup of order q imply, that there is an element of order q?
16:25:46 <int-e> no. that would mean that every group has an element of order
16:25:51 <int-e> |G|, where G is the group
16:26:02 <int-e> since G is a subgroup of itself
16:26:21 <int-e> (hmm, or is q a prime power? but it's still false)
16:27:01 <tromp__> permutation groups are also non-cyclic for n>2
16:27:01 <int-e> The easiest counterexample is the Klein four group.
16:29:08 <mroman> if g has order n, there's a subgroup of order n
16:29:26 <mroman> but the vice-versa thingie doesn't hold.. hm
16:31:47 <int-e> 2 is a natural number, but not all natural numbers equal 2.
16:32:06 <int-e> sorry, this thing just happens all the time in math.
16:32:59 <mroman> I just thought that you can only create subgroups by using an element g in G and it will produce a subgroup of order |g|
16:34:05 <tromp__> you get subgroubs from a number of generators
16:34:20 <tromp__> a single generator gives a subgroup of size its order
16:34:44 <Phantom_Hoover> that is, if p^n is the highest power of p in the factorisation of |G|, there's a subgroup of order p^n
16:36:37 <Phantom_Hoover> but uh anyway, a really simple example of a group with a noncyclic subgroup is Z2 x Z2 x Z2
16:36:47 <Phantom_Hoover> which contains Z2 x Z2 as a subgroup, and that's not cyclic
16:51:15 <mroman> but every subgroup produced by a single generator is still cyclic?
16:52:07 <int-e> cyclic = has a single generator
16:52:49 <int-e> ((Z,+) is cyclic, btw)
16:54:11 <mroman> I think I confused primitive roots with generators
16:54:26 <mroman> I thought generators always must have the same order as the group
16:54:54 <mroman> although primitive roots isn't a term used for general groups
16:55:09 <int-e> Z2 x Z2 is generated by the set {(1,0),(0,1)}
16:56:18 <int-e> And I'd call the elements of that sets the generators, once the set is established in the context.
16:57:34 <mroman> are vector spaces groups?
16:57:45 <int-e> with addition, yes.
16:57:46 <mroman> without the scalar multiplication at least
16:58:13 <int-e> (just check the axioms)
16:59:00 <mroman> the basis of a vector space is also a generator?
16:59:36 <mroman> I don't get how subgroups with multiple generators are supposed to work
16:59:55 <mroman> (0/1) and (1/0) will certainly form a sub-group
17:00:25 <Phantom_Hoover> a basis of a vector space isn't necessarily a generator
17:00:37 <int-e> you start with the set of generators, and then close it under the group operations (inverse, and the binary operation)
17:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> since with a basis you can multiply by any element of the underlying field, whereas with generators you can only add
17:02:04 <int-e> E.g. the subgroup of (R,+) generated by {1} is (Z,+).
17:02:36 <int-e> (Funny things happen. The subgroup of (R,+) generated by {1,sqrt(2)} is isomorphic to (Z,+)^2
17:03:51 <int-e> a set with two elements
17:04:16 <mroman> but what's the subgroup?
17:04:34 <int-e> { x + y*sqrt(2) | x,y in Z }
17:08:01 <int-e> you also get 0 (technically this is a group operation; the empty set generates the trivial group), the inverses -1 and -sqrt(2), and any number you can get by adding those things together, which is { x + y*sqrt(2) | x,y in Z }. Fortunately, + is commutative; for non-abelien groups the generated group can be quite hairy.
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17:57:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Lucasieks]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39815&oldid=39453 * Lucasieks * (+12)
17:57:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Lucasieks]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39816&oldid=39815 * Lucasieks * (+1)
18:08:03 <nooodl> for which x is the subgroup of (R,+) generated by {1,x} isomorphic to (Z,+) and not (Z,+)^2
18:12:12 <nooodl> dang it, what do you call two reals whose quotient is rational again
18:12:17 <nooodl> there was an adjective for it iirc!
18:21:19 <int-e> R is also a Q-vector-space. Which has a basis (assuming the axiom of choice) ...
18:27:03 <nooodl> what's an example of an element of R/Q
18:27:51 <nooodl> oh: i guess these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitali_set#Construction_and_proof
18:28:07 <nooodl> no wait why is it [0, 1]
18:29:53 <Bike> because [0,1] is convenient and isomorphic to R?
18:30:42 <Bike> group, whatever
18:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, an element of R/Q is a set of R that's closed by adding rationals, basically
18:35:50 <Phantom_Hoover> or uh, better explanation, for any x in R then {x+q : q \in Q} is an element of R/Q
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18:37:08 <Phantom_Hoover> a vitali set is the opposite, it's one point from each element in R/Q
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18:53:12 <HackEgo> olist (955): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
18:56:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: danke: not found
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19:03:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Javamannen * uploaded "[[File:NybbleScrambling.png]]"
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19:10:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NybbleScrambler]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39818&oldid=39805 * Javamannen * (+35) Added descriptive graphics
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19:35:27 <mroman> on an unrelated note: I'm working on a CoreWar-clone that resembles traditional memory layouts/CISC cpus a little bit closer
19:35:43 <mroman> there's one illegal opcode exception
19:35:56 <mroman> which will also enable the possibility of writing multi tasked program
19:36:19 <mroman> by purposely execute an illegal opcode and perform the task switch
19:36:45 <mroman> it also allows to recover from being tricked into executing an illegal opcode
19:36:54 <mroman> that is, as long as your interrupt service routine stays intact
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19:43:03 <mroman> although I've been thinking about adding hardware multitask support too
19:43:36 <mroman> or at least add a timer
19:44:52 <mroman> (programs run actually on different cpus sharing the same memory)
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20:36:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gs2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39819&oldid=38178 * Nooodl * (+273) /* Commands */ finish documenting opcodes
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22:04:44 <zzo38> Now I wrote a program for using for writing .MOD musics.
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22:48:34 <myname> Coding by SMS text message - Computerphile: http://youtu.be/0jraYGjhyY8
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23:11:03 <madbr> ho god the brainfuck survey
23:13:41 <madbr> looking at it and it's reminding me of how messed up the situation is with text mode vs binary mode
23:14:14 <madbr> Also "what should eof return" is a hard question
23:14:59 <madbr> because there is no way to signal eof
23:15:21 <madbr> it has to be a value between 0 and 255
23:15:37 <madbr> so it has to conflict with one character no matter what
23:15:41 <int-e> we should specify a 9 bit version of brainfuck
23:18:40 <int-e> (or borrow from the C standard: ", returns the next byte from standard input. at EOF, the behaviour of , is implementation-defined."
23:19:11 <nortti> no, EOF shall be undefined behaviour!
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23:21:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oots: not found
23:21:30 <HackEgo> olist (955): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
23:21:39 <madbr> but c has a way to get filesize
23:21:54 <boily> guess what. I grepped for oots in the logs.
23:22:00 <lambdabot> oerjan said 13h 51m 59s ago: <boily> meanwhile, finns are weird → http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg <-- one super-delicious ice cream hth
23:22:01 <madbr> so you're not supposed to ever read bytes past EOF anyways
23:22:52 <madbr> afaik pipes are broken in the windows world
23:23:05 <madbr> (not that I've ever used them)
23:24:11 <madbr> basically all the console-batchfile-textfile architecture of windows is subtly broken and you don't want to test the edge cases because they will break
23:24:26 <madbr> this includes stuff like "non ascii filenames"
23:26:09 <madbr> this is generally due to inheriting the DOS mess
23:26:11 <boily> oh no you didn't just mention non-ascii filenames!
23:26:57 <madbr> they are ok for user land interaction
23:27:25 <madbr> but once it's some datafile that's going to ship with a product, non-ascii filenames = "please break on other OSes"
23:28:15 <madbr> if the filename appears anywhere in source code, you're begging for the string to be interpreted as latin-1 on one compiler and utf-8 on some other
23:28:49 <boily> don't worry. some utf16 is garanteed to creep in. good lock with endianness!
23:29:12 <madbr> doesn't matter, almost all big endian platforms are dead
23:29:25 <madbr> except maybe for the wii U and whatever clunky servers
23:30:19 <boily> some day, middle endian will come back!
23:31:47 <madbr> basically ARM blocked off the stream of new big endian architectures
23:32:54 <elliott> madbr: I would not call Power dead.
23:33:20 <elliott> given that a lot of new stuff is being done for power servers (google etc.)
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