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00:07:24 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/28t6he/not_sure_i_have_high_hopes_for_this_class/
00:07:30 <Sgeo> Someone should make a C+ esolang
00:10:03 <Bike> maaaaan i'd be so bored in that curriculum
00:12:04 <boily> ah, the joy of never having classes no more...
00:12:17 <boily> (yes. I do still have nightmares from time to time about school.)
00:13:03 <Bike> shoulda taken a cooler major, like kinesthesiology
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00:18:35 <tswett> Sgeo: like a cross between C and C++ or something?
00:19:22 <Sgeo> Yes. Omitting features that other C++ features rely on to make sense
00:22:20 <elliott> tswett: Eventually = MVar?
00:23:33 <tswett> elliott: you could probably implement Eventually with MVar.
00:23:51 <tswett> I'm pretty sure Haskell doesn't guarantee that only one thread will be executing at a time.
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00:32:15 <Sgeo> http://blog.izs.me/post/59142742143/designing-apis-for-asynchrony
00:39:42 <tswett> A program consists of an array containing movable objects and stationary objects. Execution consists of repeatedly selecting an arbitrary movable object and direction, and moving it as far as it will go in that direction.
00:40:14 <tswett> Without overlapping any other objects.
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00:45:07 <oerjan> `bienvenido yonathan135
00:45:07 <HackEgo> yonathan135: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
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00:56:38 <boily> oerjan: that may be the cleanest hispanophone-handling I ever saw in this chännel.
00:58:02 <tswett> Why is the command "bienvenido", like "having been welcomed"?
00:58:42 <tswett> Probably should be "bienvenir", like "to welcome", aye?
00:58:58 <boily> `bienvenue moi-même
00:58:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenue: not found
00:59:10 <boily> hm. weird. where was the French version again?
00:59:58 <tswett> I should promote Lepwick by creating an IRC bot that executes Unix commands in some account.
01:00:07 <boily> tswett: it's the same in French. you wish to somebody that they had a nice well come. (or something probably more grammatical than that.)
01:00:28 <boily> «je vous souhaite la bienvenue» → “I wish to you that you came well”
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01:00:56 <tswett> boily: well, yeah, you say "bienvenido" to a person in order to welcome them.
01:01:22 <tswett> But if you wanted to order someone else to welcome someone, you wouldn't say "bienvenido" to the orderee.
01:01:38 <tswett> Nor would you say "bienvenir", for that matter. Unless the orderee is a computer.
01:02:03 <tswett> So what's the latest best IRC bot?
01:03:39 -!- barrucadu has changed nick to barruca2.
01:03:47 -!- barruca2 has changed nick to barrucadu.
01:04:30 -!- barrucadu has changed nick to barruca2.
01:04:38 -!- barruca2 has changed nick to barrucadu.
01:06:40 <tswett> Whoops, I destroyed littlesyl's sudoers database.
01:07:43 <tswett> Fortunately, I can magically undestroy it.
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01:16:16 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.es \ wisdom/welcome.fi
01:16:35 <oerjan> `` grep bienvenu wisdom/*
01:16:35 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/d: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory
01:16:49 <oerjan> seems like we don't have any
01:17:05 <tswett> So, what's something you can't do in HackEgo?
01:17:12 <oerjan> `` grep -i bien wisdom/*
01:17:14 <HackEgo> wisdom/bienvenue:Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) \ grep: wisdom/d: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a di
01:17:17 <tswett> Besides resolving DNS?
01:22:10 <Bike> deepnds on what you mean by "in"
01:22:13 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
01:22:29 <Bike> can't make it spam itself to death
01:22:57 -!- lepwick has joined.
01:23:09 <tswett> Like, something you might hope to be able to do with a Unix shell that you can't do with HackEgo.
01:23:18 -!- lepwick has quit (Client Quit).
01:23:34 <oerjan> tswett: vim is probably pretty awkward to use hth
01:24:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: irssi: not found
01:24:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: emacs: not found
01:25:19 <HackEgo> Vim: Warning: Output is not to a terminal \ [1;24r[?25h[?8c[?25h[?0c[27m[24m[0m[H[J[?25l[?1c[2;1H[1m[34m~ [3;1H~ [4;1H~
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01:37:54 <oerjan> huh i got a blue screen of death on windows 8
01:39:24 <oerjan> grumble, now i need to find my place again in the shtetl-optimized comment tabs
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01:41:28 <oerjan> what, his page numbers aren't chronological
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01:45:39 <tswett> Maybe I should figure out what lepwick's command prefix is.
01:46:10 <tswett> Lepwick isn't, but lepwick is.
01:46:14 <oerjan> i almost `relcomed it last time it was
01:46:48 <HackEgo> lepwick: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:46:48 <lepwick> [ 404 Not Found ] - esolangs.org
01:47:34 <lepwick> NameError: global name 'subprocess' is not defined (file "/home/ircbot/.willie/modules/unix.py", line 6, in unix)
01:47:42 -!- lepwick has quit (Client Quit).
01:48:06 <MDude> More like [ 404 Not Found ] - http://esolangs.org/%3E
01:48:26 -!- lepwick has joined.
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01:49:51 <tswett> Forgot to import subprocess.
01:50:53 <tswett> I thought lepwick was no longer running.
01:50:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.).
01:50:57 <tswett> According to ps, lepwick is indeed no longer running.
01:51:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:52:26 <tswett> That took a really long time to quit.
01:52:52 <tswett> lepwick: how are you still here? The process isn't running any more!
01:54:43 <oerjan> lepwick isn't here hth
01:55:18 -!- tswett has changed nick to lepwick.
01:55:37 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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01:55:53 <oerjan> either you are really lagged or you aren't responding to pings hth
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01:58:02 <lepwick> oerjan: I guess I am really lagged.
01:58:05 <lepwick> I'm so lagged that I haven't gotten your message saying that I'm really lagged.
01:58:29 <oerjan> and _still_ hasn't responded to my pings.
01:58:42 -!- lepwick has quit (Quit: lepwick).
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01:59:42 <tswett> Well, gee, it's traveling HALFWAY AROUND THE WORLD.
01:59:48 -!- tswett has changed nick to lepwick.
02:00:11 -!- lepwick has changed nick to tswett.
02:00:59 -!- lepwick has joined.
02:01:47 <tswett> .unix echo -e 'blah\nblah\nblah'
02:02:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:03:16 <lepwick> CalledProcessError: Command '['sudo', '-u', 'ircbotbox', 'bash', '-c', u'false']' returned non-zero exit status 1 (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/subprocess.py", line 573, in check_output)
02:06:05 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:06:12 -!- coppro has joined.
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02:08:02 <tswett> .unix sed 's/lepwick/lepwick2/' /home/ircbot/.willie/default.cfg stupidwilliecfg
02:08:02 <lepwick> CalledProcessError: Command '['sudo', '-u', 'ircbotbox', 'bash', '-c', u"sed 's/lepwick/lepwick2/' /home/ircbot/.willie/default.cfg stupidwilliecfg"]' returned non-zero exit status 2 (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/subprocess.py", line 573, in check_output)
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02:08:38 <tswett> .unix sed 's/member:lepwick/lepwick2/' /home/ircbot/.willie/default.cfg stupidwilliecfg 2>&1; true
02:08:39 <lepwick> sed: can't read stupidwilliecfg: No such file or directory[core]nick = lepwickhost = irc.freenode.netuse_ssl = Falseport = 6667owner = tswettchannels = #esotericexclude = url[db]userdb_type = sqliteuserdb_file = /home/ircbot/userdb.sqlite
02:08:53 <elliott> wagner: hi! no bother intended if not, but are you hagb4rd? (just a persistent problem with a ban-evading user who uses your ISP)
02:09:03 <elliott> tswett: okay, HackEgo is here, but ignored me
02:11:16 <wagner> aka karl kochj? i think he's dead.. suicide.
02:12:25 <elliott> wagner: have you ever been banned here before, under another name?
02:13:47 <wagner> do you know karl koch? a famous german hacker in the 80s
02:14:43 <elliott> huh. okay, I find that interesting, since the only person to use your ISP in here in many, many months is him, and he's also evaded his ban with webchat before on the IP range 77.11.*. you also type like him and act like him
02:14:51 <HackEgo> wagner: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:14:57 <elliott> I don't mean to fuss you if you are truly someone else, but I'm sure you can see how that looks pretty suspicious in isolation :)
02:16:12 <tswett> .unix PYTHONPATH=/home/ircbot/lib/python /home/ircbot/bin/willie -d -c /home/ircbotbox/stupidwillie.cfg
02:18:12 <lepwick> CalledProcessError: Command '['sudo', '-u', 'ircbotbox', 'bash', '-c', u'rm -rf ~']' returned non-zero exit status 1 (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/subprocess.py", line 573, in check_output)
02:19:02 <tswett> .unix rm -rf /home/ircbotbox/*
02:22:06 <wagner> elliott: he used to say hi too? :) well..probably same ISP. and webchat is the only web-client i know working with freenode..isn't it?
02:23:38 <elliott> I'll give you the benefit of the doubt :) (but in case you are him, I think it's a good sign you don't know what tells I'm going by!)
02:24:59 <wagner> yes, i'm not sure if i want to stay by myself. i give you the benefit of not knowing if i like it here ;)
02:26:33 <tswett> `run sleep 300; echo hi
02:26:36 <tswett> .unix sleep 300; echo hi
02:26:54 <elliott> wagner: sorry for the poor welcome :)
02:27:16 <tswett> See? This is why lepwick is superior.
02:28:23 <tswett> I don't think there's any time limit on computations.
02:31:22 <tswett> I'm on the edge of my seat.
02:32:16 <tswett> .unix sleep 200000; echo 'hi everyone :)'
02:32:21 <tswett> I'm not on the edge of my seat for this one.
02:32:53 <tswett> Note that anyone can interact with the process, kill it, whatever. Isn't that awesome.
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02:43:40 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
02:45:27 <oerjan> .unix echo are you multitasking
02:50:22 <MDude> And now I try to get a bot to repsond to another one again, since there's a new one.
02:50:57 <MDude> .unix sleep 10; echo hi fungot
02:50:57 <fungot> MDude: it logs the date and time every time you cast the result of the
02:51:07 <fungot> lepwick: really? why not some other writer? sn fnord fnord /usr/ lib... so i could provide.
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02:53:58 <oerjan> by tradition you're supposed to make a bot loop hth
02:55:57 <oerjan> i see how to do it but i'm overqualified
02:56:53 <zzo38> To avoid bot loop you can make it detect overuse and reply using a NOTICE instead of PRIVMSG in such a case, which therefore exits the loop.
02:57:12 <oerjan> zzo38: we're not trying to avoid it hth
02:58:14 <oerjan> hint: fungot has a convenient ^echo command.
02:58:14 <fungot> oerjan: it could be, with directsound or normal wave out... something like ( apply f
03:02:05 <MDude> Well to avoid the loop being avoided, you could take advantage of delays.
03:03:30 <MDude> Now I know I could say .unix sleep 10; echo ^echo whatever
03:04:18 <MDude> But for it to be unending I'll need to figure out how to duplicate and concatinate in a one liner.
03:04:22 <zzo38> Actually there are ways to still cause it be avoided, depending how much the delay is. For example you can probably avoid loop being avoided in such way by doubling the delay each time.
03:04:43 <oerjan> MDude: second hint: ^echo doesn't do what you think it does (unless you already know about it)
03:05:00 <MDude> Probably not, I'll ahve to test it.
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03:08:13 <MDude> ^echo .unix sleep 60; echo ^echo
03:08:14 <fungot> .unix sleep 60; echo ^echo .unix sleep 60; echo ^echo
03:08:36 <oerjan> oops i think that's broken
03:08:37 <MDude> Now to wait a minute and see how that goes.
03:09:14 <fungot> .unix sleep 60^echo .unix sleep 60^echo
03:09:17 <lepwick> CalledProcessError: Command '['sudo', '-u', 'ircbotbox', 'bash', '-c', u'sleep 60^echo .unix sleep 60^echo']' returned non-zero exit status 1 (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/subprocess.py", line 573, in check_output)
03:10:23 <oerjan> hm that wasn't what i thought would be wrong.
03:10:36 <MDude> To the power of echo?
03:11:31 <oerjan> stupid ; is interpreted by lepwick instead of passed on to fungot
03:11:32 <fungot> oerjan: but i dont have the high level
03:12:24 <oerjan> while the extra space didn't matter because it's being parsed into words anyway
03:13:18 <oerjan> it would probably work without the sleep >:)
03:13:56 <MDude> I guess only one way to find out?
03:14:01 <Quintopia> like ^echo .unix echo ^echo or some such?
03:14:27 <nooodl> ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:27 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:27 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:28 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:29 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:29 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:30 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:31 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:32 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:33 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:33 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:34 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:35 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@ec2-54-83-10-153.compute-1.amazonaws.com.
03:15:04 <nooodl> that's: a good way to test
03:15:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -q *!*@ec2-54-83-10-153.compute-1.amazonaws.com.
03:15:39 <Quintopia> whose idea was it to make fungot's echo a potential y-combinator?
03:15:39 <fungot> Quintopia: isn't it fnord in haskell. um... that seemo person doesn't seem particularly censored to me either
03:16:02 <oerjan> Quintopia: well it's just stupid for an echo _not_ to repeat things, right?
03:16:31 <Quintopia> oerjan: if it's going to repeat them, it should repeat them on separate lines and in a much smaller font
03:16:38 <zzo38> You should really just make it detect a possible loop and reply using NOTICE if such a thing seems likely, when writing such IRC bot program.
03:16:45 <nooodl> fr: echo command that repeats the final word... word... word...
03:16:51 <zzo38> Furthermore, make it to never reply to any NOTICE.
03:16:57 <Quintopia> zzo38: good idea. oh wait, rice's theorem
03:17:20 <tswett> So wait, why'd lepwick stop responding.
03:17:24 <Bike> well, you could just cut messages beginning in punctuation.
03:17:29 <oerjan> Quintopia: fungot's commands cannot do newlines
03:17:29 <fungot> oerjan: yeah it is. it being pleasant mitigates the effect somewhat. and i don't
03:18:19 <tswett> You totally should have come up with a .unix command that would kill the offending echo.
03:18:23 <Bike> The Man censoring us
03:18:26 <Quintopia> elliott: in a concatenative language, what's the difference?
03:18:39 <elliott> the same as in a non-concatenative language?
03:18:41 <Bike> unfair randomizer
03:19:22 <tswett> For some reason my client doesn't show the +q.
03:19:29 <zzo38> Quintopia: I know about Rice's theorem, but you only have to guess, not to be perfect, and I have some ideas about how to make such a guess, in several ways. In such ways, it will be the case such that doubling the delay every time is not detected by this algorithm, but that will slow it down sufficiently anyways and is not such a problem (if it is, a bot can be quit and reconnect, +q, or whatever)
03:19:35 <MDude> If you wanted, you could also make each response longer than tha last.
03:19:47 <MDude> Until some presumable characte r length is reached.
03:19:58 <tswett> Is fungot in any other channels?
03:19:59 <fungot> tswett: for c there is a linux on the newer computers, solaris just runs on the whole thing
03:20:12 <oerjan> the most annoying thing about the botloops here is that they make people start blabbering about NOTICE.
03:20:25 <MDude> I should write down more ideas somewhere.
03:20:33 <Bike> oerjan: see, if we had the bots issue a NOTICE NOTICE, we'd be able to avoid that
03:21:01 <MDude> They sould issue SUPs instead.
03:21:13 <MDude> Like a NOTICE, but they say SUP instead.
03:21:28 <zzo38> I think SUP is not a valid IRC command.
03:22:06 <oerjan> tswett: not that i know of
03:22:44 <MDude> I don't know all the IRC commands, and thought you just means lines starting with the word NOTICE in all caps.
03:23:30 <tswett> The NOTICE command is another way of sending messages to a channel. Some IRC clients misinterpret NOTICEs as being important.
03:23:32 <zzo38> No, I mean a message sent to the channel using NOTICE instead of PRIVMSG if the algorithm determines it likely that a botloop would be caused.
03:24:03 <zzo38> NOTICE is also used for replying to client queries.
03:24:26 <tswett> The intended use is that automatic responses are supposed to be NOTICEs, and an automatic response is never supposed to be generated to a NOTICE.
03:24:37 <MDude> According to Wikipedia, NOTICE works similarly to PRIVMSG, except automatic replies must never be sent in reply to NOTICE messages.
03:24:53 <zzo38> MDude: Yes, and this is exactly what I am suggesting, in fact.
03:24:56 <Bike> yeah, the idea is that bots could use notices.
03:24:59 <Bike> but nobody does that.
03:25:04 <tswett> We'll say that a bot should only respond to a message that's repeated twice.
03:25:16 <tswett> So that bot loops decay exponentially.
03:25:22 <elliott> I'm going to start kicking people if my IRC workspace keeps going red.
03:25:42 <tswett> Switch clients hth, bro?
03:25:49 <zzo38> I am suggesting that if you do not want to use notices all the time, you can make it decide by using such thing.
03:25:58 <Bike> is there a way to ban anybody who says hth
03:26:00 <elliott> I'm also going to start kicking people if they say things like "hth, bro?" at me.
03:26:16 <oerjan> even irssi makes notices more annoying than privmsg in channel :(
03:26:29 <zzo38> oerjan: Can't you configure that somehow?
03:26:45 <MDude> Is there something like notices that gets less attention than notices?
03:26:49 <zzo38> At least the IRC client I use, does not do any annoying/stupid things like that.
03:26:52 <shachaf> elliott: /set beep_msg_level to disable notices.
03:26:53 <MDude> Maybe announements.
03:27:09 <oerjan> zzo38: probably. but requiring _everyone_ to do that will get you hated.
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03:28:43 <MDude> I don't think going red every time an automated message is sent the way the protocol was designed to have it sent is the best design for a client.
03:28:47 <zzo38> Well, I can write just as well on a IRC channel, please don't make any bot respond to any command or event on the IRC using the PRIVMSG command; please use NOTICE instead, and don't ever reply to a NOTICE automatically.
03:29:21 <zzo38> In such a channel most bots are not allowed until they are being fixed, of course!!
03:29:38 <oerjan> unfortunately we haven't yet invented time machines to go back in time and put horse heads in the beds of bad irc client programmers.
03:29:54 <oerjan> when we do, all this will have been fixed hth
03:31:54 <Sgeo> Are bots allowed to respond to NOTICEs containing profanity?
03:32:06 -!- Sorella has quit (Quit: It is tiem!).
03:32:07 <zzo38> I think I have been told also once that some features of my IRC client are more accurate than those of other clients, such as being able to respond to messages embedded inside of another message. <CTCP>ACTION (like this one)<CTCP>
03:32:14 <Sgeo> Or is that a loophole against anti-profanity bots in the interest of blocking botloops
03:32:20 <zzo38> Sgeo: Not with another message.
03:32:42 <tswett> They're allowed to respond to any NOTICEs at all.
03:32:47 <zzo38> If they wish to have a bot to avoid profanity (although I do not think this is a good idea at all!), just make it KICK without posting any other kind of message.
03:33:20 <zzo38> And of course it can still *log* notices and perform statistics on them, just not reply directly to them using a PRIVMSG, NOTICE, or similar.
03:34:07 <zzo38> How does my "(like this one)" message appears in your IRC clients? What if it is a command other than ACTION, though?
03:34:29 <tswett> zzo38: that message to me looks like it ends in "message. ACTION (like this one)"
03:35:10 <Sgeo> I saw something similar to tswett but there was a weird character in front and a weird character behind it
03:35:13 <zzo38> tswett: Are there any colors or control-symbols displayed? There should be at least such thing
03:35:30 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, what "weird character" is OK
03:35:44 <Sgeo> ␁ in front ␁ behind
03:35:50 <Sgeo> I have no idea how that will display to others
03:36:32 <zzo38> <CTCP>ACTION Does this message display differently to you?<CTCP> Here is another sentence afterward, does it affect it too?
03:36:39 <Sgeo> See same weird character
03:36:52 <Sgeo> Also, http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2014-06-23 shows my copy/pasted version of the character, but not in your message
03:37:13 <Sgeo> glogbot sees that most recent message of yours as an ACTION
03:37:21 <tswett> zzo38: nope, no control symbols or colors or anything.
03:37:22 <Sgeo> With the second cut off
03:37:37 <tswett> zzo38: then your second message displayed all as one emote.
03:37:56 <zzo38> Do you mean the second sentence? I posted two sentences, one inside of the ACTION block and one outside.
03:38:12 <tswett> "zzo38 Does this message display differently to you? Here is another sentence afterward, does it affect it too"
03:40:05 <zzo38> I think once someone tried sending a TIME request or something like that to the channel inside of the middle of another message, and mine is the only one that responded; I think the specification actually specifies that it is supposed to be allowed in the middle of other messages.
03:41:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Slide]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39893 * 107.5.152.253 * (+1149) Created page with "'''Slide''' is an esoteric programming language created by Tanner Swett in 2014. A Slide program consists of a two-dimensional array of spaces, periods, and lowercase English..."
03:42:37 <zzo38> I also think that other IRC clients do not do syntax highlighting, isn't it?
03:43:00 <Bike> syntax for what, natural langauge?
03:43:29 <tswett> Someone prove my language Turing complete thanks.
03:43:30 <Bike> syntax for what, natural language?
03:44:24 <zzo38> No, it syntax highlight the IRC. For example it display ":Bike!~Glossina@71-222-123-162.ptld.qwest.net" in cyan, "PRIVMSG" in white, "#esoteric" in gray, the colon afterward in gray, and "syntax for what, natural langauge?" in blue.
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03:44:46 <Sgeo> Most IRC clients hide that stuff
03:44:54 <tswett> Isn't there that RawIRC client that does in fact syntax highlight the IRC?
03:44:58 <Bike> you have a client that shows you the raw message, huh
03:45:35 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, I have.
03:45:35 <zzo38> I think it is not useful to hide that kinds of stuff
03:45:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ds84182 * New user account
03:46:17 <zzo38> tswett: Maybe, but this is a different one, not RawIRC.
03:46:23 <tswett> I don't need to see "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" on every PRIVMSG sent to #esoteric to know that it's a PRIVMSG sent to #esoteric.
03:47:30 <zzo38> It still is not perfect; for example, there are no options to open additional windows and to redirect messages to other windows. There are a few other things missing too, but most of it is complete.
03:49:08 <zzo38> Commands that are typed in also use the same syntax highlighting, including client commands with a slash in front. Also I have shortcut, if no command is typed and the first key is a space-bar, it automatically fill in "PRIVMSG" and a channel and colon.
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03:49:38 <zzo38> In my experience, this way better.
03:51:14 <nooodl> tswett: i don't know, but one thing i can prove is: you don't need the spaces
03:52:36 <tswett> I assume that by spaces you mean barriers rather than empty spaces?
03:52:49 <nooodl> proof being: "zooming" all of your objects by a factor 3 obviously results in an equivalent one, and ' ' can then map to 'aaa\naba\naaa'
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03:54:25 <tswett> So, it's easy enough to create something that can move back and forth.
03:54:58 <tswett> Can you make a spaceship? A pattern that moves forever, but only in one direction?
03:57:19 <tswett> Can you make logic gates in any way?
03:59:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39894 * Ds84182 * (+602) Created page with "Xihcute is a esolanguage created by ds84182. It is self modifying, stack based, and most likely turning complete. ==Operators== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Name !! Description |..."
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04:01:38 <Bike> It actually worked?
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04:01:53 <tswett> I think it actually worked.
04:03:34 <tswett> It worked so well that I can't SSH into the host.
04:04:40 <nooodl> hm. how do you prove a language *isn't* turing complete when you can't cheat by pointing out some "finity" limitation it runs into
04:04:55 <tswett> Solve its halting problem.
04:05:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39895&oldid=39894 * Ds84182 * (+578) Added more of Xihcutes instructions from it's working interpreter
04:05:38 <Sgeo_> How many languages have solved halting problems that the solution is NOT 'always halts' or 'never halts'?
04:06:18 <tswett> Yup, that forkbomb was super effective.
04:06:49 <tswett> I wonder what's the shortest /// program that outputs infinitely much stuff.
04:07:21 <tswett> I don't think one shorter than about a hundred characters has been found.
04:07:38 <nooodl> Sgeo_: take some language L with halting problem solution 'never halts'. define a language L' that halts for only one program p which is not in L, and otherwise behaves exactly like L
04:08:41 <Sgeo_> How many such languages that were not designed to have "trivial" (whatever that means) answers?
04:09:09 <tswett> Aren't most languages pretty clearly designed to have some programs that halt and some that don't?
04:09:11 <nooodl> i think that sadly depends on: whatever that means
04:09:34 <tswett> I wonder if it's possible to abuse the specification of Proce and make it do digital computation.
04:10:16 <Sgeo_> SQL isn't TC, is it? Is it trivially halting?
04:11:43 <oerjan> Sgeo_: the 0x29A functional fragment was one i solved the halting problem for, without being either.
04:13:55 <Sgeo_> I went to refresh, page rendered, pressed stop
04:14:36 <oerjan> ah right Subtle Cough was the other one.
04:14:47 <oerjan> slightly more trivial.
04:15:05 <oerjan> (only three cases to check)
04:15:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39896&oldid=39895 * Ds84182 * (+371)
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04:33:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39897&oldid=39896 * Ds84182 * (+149)
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04:39:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39898&oldid=39897 * Ds84182 * (+138)
04:42:48 <tswett> Yeah, you can obviously make digital logic gates in Proce.
04:43:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39899&oldid=39898 * Ds84182 * (+366) Added a length independent quine
04:49:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39900&oldid=39899 * Ds84182 * (+9) Change "Quine" to "Cheating Quine", because my method is cheating...
04:50:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Proce]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39901&oldid=32990 * 107.5.152.253 * (+248) Nerf by limiting slew rate
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04:51:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39902&oldid=39900 * Ds84182 * (+70)
04:52:19 <zzo38> Sgeo_: SQL is now TC, due to a WITH command.
04:57:09 <tswett> Whelp, Funciton is my favorite esolang at the moment.
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05:59:23 <Sgeo_> I want to add 'legal, winning, and not fun' to oerjan's wisdom
06:06:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39903&oldid=39892 * Zzo38 * (+270)
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06:08:32 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
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06:21:45 <zzo38> That is what is wrong with playing cash games. Just play a tournament style (even if there are only two players), each player starts same number of chips, and nobody wins until the other player loses all of their chips. You can bet money on winning if you want to, and it does not have to correspond to how many chips they are. Amount of money in your pocket is therefore irrelevant, except that you need to have enough to afford to pay the entry fee
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06:30:33 <password2> mmm , i should build an eso lang that runs backwards , it starts by exiting with code 0 and ends at the start
06:32:16 <zzo38> People will bet less then? I do not quite understand what you mean, although my message may have been cut off.
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06:32:47 <password2> your message end with "the entry fee"
06:33:10 <password2> they will bet less because betting now no longer changes the outcome of the game
06:33:40 <zzo38> There is something afterward: (which you have to decide before you start, and then the prize is twice the entry fee).
06:34:26 <zzo38> The entry fee is the only buy in.
06:35:43 <password2> and if you are good you would have the money to start with
06:35:58 <zzo38> You are still more likely to win if you play well by betting correct amounts of poker chips.
06:36:46 <zzo38> But that is how all poker tournaments are played; just they usually have more than two players in the tournament.
06:37:18 <zzo38> Not all have buy-in rounds.
06:37:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Sacchan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39904&oldid=39715 * Sacchan * (+16)
06:38:15 <zzo38> However, you can play without it.
06:38:57 <zzo38> You don't get to undo a move in a chess tournament because you bribed the tournament directors, of course.
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06:41:03 <password2> meh , i really want to code that thing now
06:41:06 <zzo38> Poker games simply involve a lot more money than chess, and there are people who play at both games (some even combine them in various ways).
06:41:42 <password2> i once saw an epic poker tournement on espn
06:42:47 <password2> the tournement had something like 40 professional players that bought into the tournament and like 10 that won their place by playing online
06:43:18 <password2> I was watching the last round and this guy who won his seat made 4 people drop out in under 5 min
06:43:43 <password2> leaving him heads up against two and a pot of like $1000 000
06:49:43 <zzo38> For similar reasons as I have described above (although also other reasons), when I play at Magic: the Gathering I always prefer the Limited formats.
06:50:39 <password2> have only seen one game being played
06:51:43 <zzo38> I actually like the Magic: the Puzzling, much better than playing the game itself. Same with chess, really.
06:51:54 <zzo38> I also invented a few Pokemon card puzzles, because I like that game too.
06:54:09 <zzo38> For example, this one: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.1
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07:01:27 <mroman> TBBT is getting boring.
07:02:27 <zzo38> Who is TBBT? Do you prefer BTTB, perhaps?
07:03:24 <fizzie> BTTB: Big Theory, The Bang.
07:05:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: as for M:tG, they changed http://gatherer.wizards.com/ so now I can no longer download (almost) all cards with a single large page load,
07:05:39 <b_jonas> but at least they seem to have fixed how flip cards show up
07:07:00 <b_jonas> I might eventually have to write a script to download the cards the slow way unless they fix this.
07:07:43 <zzo38> OK. Do you want the pictures or the text or both or what?
07:10:04 <shachaf> b_jonas: How did you do it before?
07:10:06 <b_jonas> at least http://www.yawgatog.com/ seems to have been able to get everything
07:10:25 <b_jonas> shachaf: you could get the text of all cards valid in Legacy with a single page load, then parse that html,
07:10:58 <b_jonas> except that the newest set was often months late to get marked as valid in Legacy in Gatherer (when it actually was) so I couldn't get the newest set rightaway
07:14:26 <shachaf> why do people play these formats with old expensive cards
07:14:31 <shachaf> why do people play this game in the first place
07:16:14 <zzo38> I recently saw someone who used mostly grayscale proxy cards, against an opponent who did the same, playing on a boat that I happened to be on.
07:16:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's not that I want to play legacy, it's just the easiest way in their interface to download all cards
07:16:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: grayscale proxy cards? sounds ugly
07:16:54 <shachaf> are you using advanced search?
07:17:22 <b_jonas> shachaf: dunno, I just loaded this url => http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/index.aspx?term=&Field_Name=on&Field_Rules=on&Field_Type=on&setfilter=Legacy&output=Text%20Spoiler
07:17:29 <b_jonas> in the old interface that is
07:17:34 <shachaf> you can just search for name not "ahflsjflhsf"
07:17:44 <zzo38> b_jonas: If the cards are readable then it works.
07:17:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: in the old or the new gatherer?
07:18:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but the cards have beautiful art, and it's so much harder to recognize them without color
07:18:11 <shachaf> in either. but i'm not sure about this text spoiler thing
07:18:25 <shachaf> the best cards are banned in legacy, of course
07:19:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: the problem with the new gatherer is that I can't seem to be able to get all cards in a single page, it's forcefully paged to like ten cards per page or something,
07:19:13 <b_jonas> so I'd need a thousand page loads
07:19:18 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but perhaps they only care the text when playing the game; I also only care the text when playing the game. Yes some cards have nice pictures (I especially like the really old ones) although it is irrelevant.
07:19:57 <b_jonas> also, have you found out where they'd hidden the list of all set FAQs? I can see links to the set FAQs only from the pages describing each set, not together
07:20:10 <shachaf> you can get http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&output=checklist&name=+![sdfaskjdfsdal]
07:20:17 <shachaf> but that doesn't have card text
07:20:19 <b_jonas> plus, they're again not releasing the comprehensive rules as plain text
07:20:29 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, I need the text, not just the names
07:21:22 <zzo38> b_jonas: Then, convert it by yourself into plain text.
07:21:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: I've seen some people train for standard with a deck where almost all cards were unmarked proxies for some other card, so it was impossible to understand from outside because I had no idea which card represented what
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07:21:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: yep, I have converted already
07:21:46 <b_jonas> I'm more bothered by gatherer
07:22:08 <b_jonas> but I'll try to watch the plus side: at least flip cards work now
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07:23:31 <zzo38> Perhaps you can make a local cache of SQL of file already copied, so that only new cards and information, you are needing to download, and then searched by SQL.
07:24:36 <zzo38> (You can also use XML instead if you prefer)
07:24:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's basically the same. I have to download all cards four times a year. I need to have all, not just a cache, because I want complex local searches in the full text.
07:25:16 <shachaf> kind of surprising they don't make that easily available
07:25:53 <zzo38> b_jonas: What are you using, SQL or XML or HTML or what?
07:26:24 <shachaf> b_jonas: maybe try http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Settings.aspx
07:26:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: nah, it's just a plain text thing. it's not that big, was only 25 megs at about M1023
07:26:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: ok, will check that later
07:27:07 <b_jonas> also, I'm not too worried because both http://www.yawgatog.com/ and http://magiccards.info/ seems to have the new cards available
07:27:11 <shachaf> apparently you can't actually set results per page?
07:27:17 <b_jonas> but I'd like to have an independent download
07:27:50 <b_jonas> shachaf: no big deal, I'd done big web scraping stuff before, I'm just annoyed they broke what used to work
07:29:41 <zzo38> I would like to have the SQL so that, you can write something like SELECT "SET", COUNT(*) FROM "CARDS" GROUP BY "SET"; or whatever
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07:39:01 <b_jonas> sure, once you have downloaded the stuff, you can try to fill them to a database or anything you want
08:02:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Randwork]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39905 * 178.125.27.107 * (+573) Created page with "It's a pity, but '''Randwork+''' isn't so interesting... As for me. I've made a small interpreter of this language and have noticed some unpleasant things:<br /> * Too many "H..."
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09:44:34 <Taneb> I should breakfast
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09:47:54 <slereah> I gave up my linear construct of time for lent
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09:50:51 <fizzie> It is always lent when you increment a lens by one.
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11:16:02 <Melvar> zzo38: “* | zzo38 Does this message display differently to you?” “-- | unbekannte CTCP Anfrage von zzo38: Here is another sentence afterward, does it affect it too?”
11:18:35 <fizzie> Oh, I missed a botloop and all.
11:19:11 <fizzie> This is what one gets with manually managed ignore lists.
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13:05:01 <boily> dishes washed: check. bedsheets laundering: check. bowl of cheerios: check. bodum infusing: check. I am ready to begin the day!
13:14:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ESOSC]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39906 * GreyKnight * (+290) Created page with "== Standard [[Clunk]] == The specification for Clunk states that «The "clunk" sound must be approved by the appropriate standards body.». Probably ESOSC should give a stand..."
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13:20:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gs2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39907&oldid=39819 * Nooodl * (+918) comparison operators
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13:46:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39908&oldid=39902 * Ds84182 * (+371)
13:55:08 <Taneb> "Torpenhow Hill is an alleged hill"
13:55:14 <Taneb> How does one be an alleged hill?
13:55:47 <Taneb> "the hill may not exist."
13:57:14 <boily> http://www.the-berg.de/
13:59:16 <Taneb> boily, there's a difference between an elaborate prank and a geographical eggcorn
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14:16:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39909&oldid=39908 * Ds84182 * (+1235) Added the rest of the instructions, and add a new and more complex Hello, World
14:19:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39910&oldid=39909 * Ds84182 * (+159)
14:30:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39911&oldid=39910 * Ds84182 * (+40)
14:33:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39912&oldid=39911 * Ds84182 * (+109) Add if statement command
14:36:13 <FireFly> boily: good example of mystery-meat navigation
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14:40:13 <ais523_> boily: it's the name for a navigation system which has a bunch of unlabelled buttons, each of which takes you to a different page
14:43:50 <MDude> I don't see an actual description anywhere else, but at the same time am averse to reading anything labled "manifesto".
14:44:12 <Taneb> MDude, it's a mountain they built in Berlin to attract tourists
14:44:27 <MDude> Oh, I could ask WIkipedia.
14:44:46 <MDude> But it says the page implies it doens't exist yet?
14:44:53 <boily> the best manifesto of them all → http://www.kimmok.com/THE-MANIFESTO-MANIFESTO
14:44:59 <boily> MDude: of course it exists!
14:45:18 <MDude> I'm sure the web site does.
14:47:46 <MDude> I completely understand the overarching concept of that.
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15:08:09 <zzo38> How does "unbekannte CTCP Anfrage von zzo38" in English?
15:12:06 <ais523_> "unbekannte" is "unknown", and "CTCP" and "zzo38" are obvious
15:12:14 <ais523_> Anfrage is either "request" or "response", not sure which though
15:12:30 <ais523_> and "von" is a preposition, but I'm not quite sure which one in this context, because prepositions don't translate well between languages
15:13:11 <myname> "unknown CTCP request of zz038"
15:13:12 <Taneb> Unknown CTCP request from zzo38?
15:18:17 <zzo38> Then it is incorrectly interpreting the part outside of the CTCP request as a CTCP request instead
15:19:14 <myname> why do you do something with german irc clients if you don't speak german?
15:23:46 <fizzie> Taneb: Perhaps there's a set of specified criteria for a hill (e.g. to distinguish between lesser/greater geographical features, such as mounds and mountains), and the "alleged hill" is alleged because its hillness has not been clearly shown.
15:24:09 <Taneb> fizzie, reading the article, it's an alleged hill because nobody quite knows which hill it is
15:24:15 <Taneb> There are a lot of hills around there
15:35:38 <Taneb> Woo, I've passed my first year at uni!
15:35:50 <fizzie> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1270709547/chrono-legends-1999-a-20th-anniversary-project "uh"
15:36:20 <Bike> copyright violating kickstarters are the best kickstarters
15:36:29 <Taneb> I passed decently, too!
15:36:57 <Bike> anyway re alleged hills you should clearly cite "On Hills and Dales" by maxwell
15:37:06 <Bike> i don't actually know w hat a dale is, but he was pretty smart, so he probably could figure it out
15:37:19 <Taneb> A dale is like a valley
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17:19:41 <zzo38> Here describes some people seem to be using both LaTeX and Plain TeX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TeXnocrat
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17:29:14 <HackEgo> TieSoul: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:29:23 <ais523_> we have rainbow welcomes again?
17:29:40 <ais523_> first time in /ages/ I've seen one of those, as they don't show up on my other client
17:29:50 <ais523_> also, something that's bothering me al ot
17:29:56 <TieSoul> That's an amazing welcome message
17:30:03 <ais523_> that seems to have red, orange, yellow, green, indigo, violet, and magenta
17:30:29 <ais523_> I guess I'd be less concerned if it was either exactly a traditional rainbow, or further from one
17:31:05 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure it'd tricky to do closer with IRC colors.
17:31:34 <ais523_> blue is not listed in my list of colours
17:31:59 <nooodl> looks like "red, brown, yellow, lightgreen, blue, magenta, lightmagenta" to me
17:32:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39913&oldid=39912 * Ds84182 * (-85) Took out the shitty () command
17:32:31 <ais523_> nooodl: are you in a terminal, by any chance?
17:32:55 <ais523_> that's quite the customized ctcp version message
17:32:57 <nooodl> but my colours are terminal-y
17:32:59 <ais523_> also, I actually /like/ Vista :-(
17:33:00 <TieSoul> Has anyone ever made an http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eitherf*ck interpreter? It sounds really cool
17:33:24 <TieSoul> but all esolangs are gimmicky
17:33:40 <ais523_> the main issue with that language is that it has no control flow at all
17:33:43 <Bicyclidine> i forget, which newish version of windows is it everybody hates
17:33:52 <ais523_> which is a common mistake in making BF derivatives
17:33:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39914&oldid=39913 * Ds84182 * (+0) Forgive me division, I did not mean to replace you
17:34:01 <ais523_> (arguably, making BF derivatives at all is a mistake, but...)
17:34:12 <ais523_> although it's specifically the UI on 8 that sucks
17:34:19 <ais523_> the actual technology behind it is pretty solid
17:34:50 <ais523_> I found that 8 became tolerable when I removed edge gestures from the touchpad
17:34:58 <ais523_> those things activated unwantdly far too often
17:35:15 <TieSoul> I found that 8 is tolerable because I use a mouse.
17:35:16 <ais523_> TieSoul: here's one for you: without using the keyboard, how do you close a Metro application (actually close it, not just switch away)?
17:35:36 <ais523_> I know the answer, but I had to look it up, and couldn't quite believe it once I did
17:35:51 <pikhq> On a fully up-to-date Windows 8 machine, put mouse at the top of the screen to get the Metro titlebar to un-autohide. :)
17:36:04 <ais523_> it used to be called Metro but Microsoft renamed it because the Metro name got such bad press
17:36:22 <ais523_> pikhq: I never got that to work
17:36:38 <ais523_> that used to just let me snap the application to half the screen
17:36:45 <pikhq> (disclaimer, I don't have a Windows 8 install handy)
17:37:13 <password2> (disclaimer i will never have windows install handy)
17:37:14 <TieSoul> none of my apps will open 'because File Explorer is open with administrator priviledges'
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17:37:23 <zzo38> Can you tell Windows 8 to not un-autohide the Metro titlebar, or to tell it to never autohide?
17:37:46 <ais523_> zzo38: it would surprise me if you could, given how Metro programs are typically designed to be fullscreen/halfscreen only
17:38:00 <pikhq> zzo38: No, but IIRC one of the upcoming features of Windows 9 is to let you do Metro programs windowed.
17:38:06 <Taneb> ais523_, I thought they renamed Metro because it was trademarked by another company?
17:38:21 <password2> can we agree that windows 8 is just a browser?
17:38:43 <pikhq> It isn't really, it's just Win32 with random crap glued on. :)
17:38:51 <ais523_> in Windows 8, I went and uninstalled most of the Metro programs, and unpinned everything else
17:38:57 <ais523_> and then I had a usable start screen
17:39:13 <ais523_> I still prefer Unity, though, I think
17:39:30 <ais523_> I have a few specific issues with Unity's UI, and it's pretty buggy
17:39:35 <ais523_> but apart from that I really like it
17:39:40 <elliott> password2: y'know, I know windows-bashing is fashionable, and if it makes you happy then fine, but it helps if you at least try and say things that are meaningful
17:40:00 <password2> elliott, but that a catch 22 for me
17:40:29 <elliott> like saying windows 8 is just a browser sounds snappy, but you could, like, devote three seconds to thinking about what you're going to say beforehand, and decide if it makes any sense whatsoever or is just a string of words that sound like they bash windows
17:40:34 <elliott> and then only say it if it's the former
17:40:37 <password2> i don't want to try it so badly that i don't even want other people using it
17:40:48 <ais523_> elliott: I interpreted "bash windows" as "terminal emulator windows running bash"
17:41:01 <elliott> password2: okay, if you admit you are completely ignorant of it, then don't try and offer analysis and opinions presented as consensus?
17:41:06 <TieSoul> you can close them by going to the top left corner of the screen, making the whole UI there show up, then right clicking the app and clicking close.
17:41:12 <elliott> and especially don't say stuff you know has no basis in reality to convince other people not to use something
17:41:24 <password2> i still think its a glorified browser
17:41:28 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
17:41:37 -!- elliott has kicked password2 trolling after warning.
17:41:37 <ais523_> TieSoul: yep, that's actually the second method I learned
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17:41:56 <ais523_> switch to another program, then mouse to top left corner, down the left edge, then right click and close
17:42:05 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
17:42:25 <elliott> (n.b. I hate windows, this isn't me being defensive)
17:42:26 <password2> though i think a kick was over doing it
17:42:31 <ais523_> the method in the instruction manual that came with the computer was to repeat the first three steps, then drag the program to the right, then down to the bottom of the screen
17:42:48 <ais523_> I hate Windows from the software development point of view
17:43:05 <ais523_> from the point of view of a casual user, it's mostly just slightly worse than Ubuntu nowadays
17:43:08 <TieSoul> I like Windows because it's got the most support for applications and stuff.
17:43:09 <pikhq> Pity Windows doesn't have a C environment.
17:43:10 <zzo38> Still in Windows 8 all of the older Windows stuff still works: cmd.exe still exists (somehow I thought they would remove it in favor of PowerShell), WIN+R still works for the Run dialog box, ALT+F4 and ALT+TAB and that stuff still works, etc
17:43:16 <ais523_> and it has some nice features, like resizing a mounted partition
17:43:37 <pikhq> zzo38: cmd.exe is a bit more work to remove than you'd think.
17:43:39 <ais523_> PowerShell takes like 30 seconds to load, somehow
17:43:47 <ais523_> that's one good reason for cmd.exe to still work
17:43:53 <ais523_> also, they didn't want to break old shell scripts
17:44:03 <TieSoul> Also does Linux have anything that isn't a command line?
17:44:03 <pikhq> cmd.exe is also kinda architecturally required.
17:44:10 <ais523_> I've also never been able to learn PowerShell because it tries to connect to the Internet to work
17:44:18 <elliott> password2: well, when you admit that you're just saying untrue things in an attempt to get a reaction out of people to discourage them to use windows and an op warns you for it, and then you deliberately do it again without adding anything to it, that's pretty obvious provocation. since you rejoined less than 20 seconds afterwards I don't think a kick is much more of a penalty than the second warning it was intended as :p
17:44:26 <pikhq> Essentially Windows command line stuff has a "talk to cmd.exe" API.
17:44:32 <ais523_> err, connect to the Internet to download documentation
17:44:36 <elliott> I admit though, it is probably completely futile to try and make this channel more bearable to be in.
17:44:39 <pikhq> PowerShell for Windows command line stuff screen-scrapes cmd.exe.
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17:44:51 <zzo38> I like that it still has cmd.exe though, and those other stuff, so when working on a computer with Windows 8, I can still work on it
17:45:05 <ais523_> pikhq: screenscraping cmd.exe would actually be very difficult
17:45:21 <ais523_> even copy-and-paste is awkward due to the way Windows does permissions
17:45:22 <password2> the layouts that i have seen from afar reminds me the fixed position type things one would expect to see in a browser
17:45:39 <pikhq> ais523_: It's really awkward.
17:45:46 <TieSoul> also cmd.exe can't go fullscreen for some reason
17:45:47 <ais523_> elliott: I mean, I'm not certain that a screenshot wouldn't just come up completely black, if done without privilege
17:45:53 <pikhq> TieSoul: It's not a Win32 app.
17:46:08 <ais523_> TieSoul: actually, that's because the Windows terminal system is implemented in a really awkward manner
17:46:49 <Taneb> I can't remember the last time I used Windows
17:46:55 <Taneb> I think it was last friday, actually
17:47:27 <TieSoul> well, I'm perfectly fine with Windows; Mac OS X is just not for me and Linux is complicated and I'm too lazy to learn about it.
17:47:53 <maurer> TieSoul: I'm not really sure what you mean by Linux being complicated. Windows is super painful to use by comparison
17:48:00 <zzo38> I happen to think UNIX based systems work well; Mac OS X and Linux both use UNIX based stuff.
17:48:10 <zzo38> It isn't really so complicated to understand, I think
17:48:25 <TieSoul> Well, don't you have to do a LOT of command line stuff for Linux to work properly?
17:48:30 <pikhq> Depends on the distro.
17:48:48 <pikhq> That's the case for some, but that's because some people like it that way.
17:48:54 <Taneb> I think the issue with Linux is there is sooo muuuuch chooooiiiiice to set it up
17:48:59 <password2> yeah , debian requires no a little
17:49:07 <elliott> ubuntu should pretty much just work on everything with no fuss, but it's certainly different to windows.
17:49:11 <elliott> it may or may not be worth it for you to switch.
17:49:16 <Taneb> "Which distro do you want?" "OK, great, now which window manager?" etc
17:49:27 <elliott> if you're fine with windows then stick with it; some of the best programmers I know use windows
17:49:27 <ais523_> elliott: Ubuntu is a little less trivial to install as dual boot than it used to be
17:49:28 <password2> Taneb, true , the average user just freezes when they have too many choice
17:49:40 <TieSoul> Yeah, I'm going to stick with Windows
17:49:43 <int-e> Taneb: don't care as long as it isn't Ubuntu; fvwm; next question? ;-)
17:49:47 <zzo38> I try to write program for cross-platform if possible
17:49:50 <ais523_> Taneb: distro + window manager + 32/64bitness are the only three decisions that are typically made nowadays
17:49:55 <elliott> I think fvwm is more of a question than an answer.
17:49:55 <ais523_> my answer, btw: Ubuntu, Unity, 64 bit
17:49:56 <zzo38> Or for Nintendo Family Computer and run them on emulators
17:50:14 <ais523_> because I actually really like Unity
17:50:17 <TieSoul> or is there a way to get a double-boot Windows-Linux system? Or is that horribly slow?
17:50:25 <ais523_> TieSoul: you can get dual-boot, and it's not horribly slow
17:50:31 <Taneb> I currently use Ubuntu and XMonad
17:50:38 <password2> if you have lotsa cap get debian stable
17:50:45 <ais523_> the only extra time spent is at the boot screen where you decide which to boot
17:50:51 <ais523_> however, it's a little less trivial to set up than it used to be
17:50:54 <elliott> I don't recommend getting Debian stable.
17:50:56 <zzo38> If you want a fast system, get FreeDOS. It boots faster than the time the CRT takes to warm up.
17:50:56 <int-e> (I don't think there is any reason for not using a 64 bit system (at least on x86), the 32bit emulation is quite good, since the processors support it.)
17:50:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39915&oldid=39914 * Ds84182 * (+516)
17:51:06 <ais523_> and if you have any files on the Windows side you care about, you want pretty good backups before starting
17:51:07 <elliott> I also don't think any of you are doing a good job of selling Linux as not a fuss to set up.
17:51:20 <ais523_> elliott: that's because I'm trying to be honest about the issue
17:51:23 <pikhq> elliott: I'm pretty sure we're not. :)
17:51:30 <pikhq> Erm. Not trying to.
17:51:38 <ais523_> Ubuntu knows how to install itself along Windows 7, natively
17:51:42 <pikhq> Just stating that you don't have to literally use a command line for everything.
17:51:42 <elliott> ais523_: actually I was talking more to everyone other than you
17:51:43 <Bicyclidine> i would like to buy a copy of "More Tales of Pirx the Pilot"
17:51:46 <ais523_> it does not, however, know how to install itself alongside Windows 8
17:51:55 <ais523_> you can tell it how to do so, but you have to do so manually
17:51:56 <pikhq> ais523_: That's sad. :(
17:52:09 <int-e> elliott: How could I be a judge of that? I've been using Linux since 1993ish, and back then it was a bit of a pain to set up.
17:52:18 <password2> can't you install ubuntu from withing windows?
17:52:24 <int-e> All I know is that it got much simpler.
17:52:25 <elliott> ais523_: I bet it actually does know how, it just doesn't know how to handle the GPT/UEFI parts that most Windows 8 systems have?
17:52:32 <pikhq> Yeah, there is a thing for that, password2.
17:52:39 <elliott> int-e: no, everyone still installs slackware from floppies :)
17:52:41 <ais523_> pikhq: if you know how partitions work, it's pretty easy; on Windows, you shrink partitions to give free space, and turn off fast restart after shutdown; in the Linux installer, you install it to the free space
17:52:47 <ais523_> and then sometimes, you have to mess with the EFI boot order
17:52:51 <int-e> elliott: speak for yourself
17:52:51 <pikhq> ais523_: Yeah, I know.
17:52:54 <ais523_> although whether you do or not seems to be hardware dependent
17:52:54 <elliott> int-e: "ubuntu" is just a running gag.
17:53:07 <int-e> elliott: I use debootstrap from knoppix which isn't exactly the simplest way.
17:53:10 <pikhq> elliott: Which is weird, cause Ubuntu does EFI.
17:53:21 <ais523_> password2: you used to be able to install Ubuntu from within Windows, but that doesn't work on Windows 8
17:53:27 <Taneb> I am using Ubuntu until I get my SSD working
17:53:29 <Bicyclidine> i wish linux on efi didn't seem to be such a pain. i'm prety sure i fucked up upgrading syslinux
17:53:39 <Taneb> Whereupon I shall install a different distro
17:53:47 <password2> i want to see debian boot from ssd
17:53:52 <pikhq> Bicyclidine: It's a typical case of "BIOS makers test Windows only" causing issues.
17:53:53 <elliott> Bicyclidine: I recommend you just use gummiboot (and no separate boot loader) for Linux on EFI.
17:53:53 <ais523_> on my new laptop, the issue seems to be that whenever I go into the BIOS configuration screen, it sets Windows as the default boot, rather than GRUB's boot menu
17:53:53 <TieSoul> I'll just stick with Windows for now
17:54:06 <pikhq> Plus "EFI on Linux is not that solid".
17:54:24 <Bicyclidine> urgh, i'm afraid i'm gonna brick myself if i touch it
17:54:32 <int-e> (Oh, EFI, I've avoided that can of worms so far.)
17:54:33 <ais523_> in order to set the boot menu as the default, I have to override the boot order for one boot to get it into Linux (via Esc spam at startup), then use Linux to edit the boot order
17:54:44 <ais523_> luckily you don't have to configure the BIOS very often
17:54:46 <zzo38> I think you can disable UEFI on any Windows 8 computers that are x86 based, due to Microsoft's specification. (On ARM, you can't disable it, again due to Microsoft's specification.)
17:54:57 <Bicyclidine> i had ridiculous problems getting things set up to begin with. people i asked for tech support concluded that my shiny new 1 TB drive was defective
17:55:00 <ais523_> Windows 8 and Linux both prefer UEFI to BIOS
17:55:04 <elliott> zzo38: UEFI is not secure boot
17:55:05 <ais523_> Windows 7 prefers BIOS, though
17:55:12 <pikhq> zzo38: MS doesn't require *that*, it requires that you can disable secure boot.
17:55:14 <ais523_> and yeah, your comments relate to secure boot
17:55:16 <Bicyclidine> because the actual problem was, in fact, even more ridiculous
17:55:28 <ais523_> however, the vast majority of laptops also allow disabling UEFI altogether, so that you can install Windwos 7 on them
17:55:35 <elliott> anyway you can worst-case "just", like, use the CSM for BIOS backwards-compatibility
17:55:40 <elliott> I don't think anyone ships motherboards without that
17:55:46 <Bicyclidine> also all the wiki instructions involve $esp and i forget where i put $esp so i'm doomed.
17:55:49 <elliott> and it's automatic if you try and boot something that isn't UEFI
17:56:00 <Bicyclidine> er no wait, i remember. it's just a partition, i can mount it
17:56:13 <elliott> most of the UEFI problems come from when distros try to do it the native UEFI way, which is nicer than relying on the compatibility but currently more fraught for obvious reasons
17:56:14 <Bicyclidine> except that when i tried doing that mount didn't recognize the filesystem. i don't know why i'm allowed near computers
17:56:23 <pikhq> On my desktop EFI basically "just works" perfectly well. On my laptop (which doesn't do BIOS boot on its internal HD!) every now and then I need to literally pull up the EFI command line to boot it.
17:56:41 <pikhq> Thankfully that laptop actually *has* that.
17:56:52 <TieSoul> So what does Linux do better than Windows?
17:56:59 <elliott> Bicyclidine: my setup is I have the esp be /boot and I just have gummiboot set up and it all works automatically (I'm on arch)
17:57:08 <pikhq> TieSoul: Big one is flexibility.
17:57:10 <ais523_> TieSoul: it's much better for developing software on, IME
17:57:20 <Bicyclidine> i have a /boot and i... don't /think/ it's a partition, or something
17:57:22 <Taneb> TieSoul, it's a lot more configurable
17:57:29 <Taneb> ...which is where most of the issues come from, I guess
17:57:33 <ais523_> because most development environments treat Windows as a second-class citizen, and the others are Visual Studio
17:57:39 <ais523_> Bicyclidine: it's a rotated root directory
17:57:43 <elliott> flash videos being nigh-unusable is another advantage of linux :P
17:58:06 <pikhq> Even on my stupid nice box Flash doesn't work nicely. :(
17:58:08 <Bicyclidine> I actually have flash work shockingly well, i can even play games! though it still crashes every two days or so
17:58:09 <ais523_> basically, what happens is that /boot is the root directory while the system is booting; then later during the boot process, it makes another directory into / (the one with all the actual files on)
17:58:10 <password2> elliott, i have no problem with flash
17:58:23 <ais523_> and it needs to put the old root directory system somewhere, so it uses /boot
17:58:24 <elliott> do you get full AV sync in fullscreen on youtube
17:58:26 <elliott> with no tearing or anything
17:58:28 <Bicyclidine> ais523_: so is it a partition or... well, whatever
17:58:34 <int-e> TieSoul: not *forcing* you on a new desktop every 3 years.
17:58:38 <ais523_> Bicyclidine: it's a directory, but one that's the only one that's accessible during boot
17:58:42 <pikhq> elliott: When I pass the Youtube URL to mpv, sure.
17:58:43 <elliott> ais523_: that isn't how the boot process works at all
17:58:43 <int-e> (though they do try)
17:58:45 <ais523_> elliott: I may be confusing this with something else
17:58:46 <password2> I played creeper world in fullscreen mode
17:58:51 <pikhq> Not with Flash on proprietary drivers though.
17:58:55 <elliott> ais523_: /boot contains the kernels and initramfs
17:58:57 <ais523_> I know Linux has a system call to rotate the root directory though
17:59:01 <elliott> the initramfs is mounted as a, well, you know, ramfs
17:59:04 <Bicyclidine> I switched back to mesa and everything broke, so, fuck everything.
17:59:07 <int-e> ais523_: pivot_root
17:59:10 <elliott> which is then / for a while, and then pivots to
17:59:14 <elliott> but /boot itself is never /.
17:59:22 <elliott> HAVE WE MENTIONED LINUX IS SIMPLE AND EASY
17:59:23 <password2> only youtube probs i get is when it switches quality the audio jumps back like 0.2s
17:59:33 <Bicyclidine> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/glamor/commit/src/glamor_fbo.c?id=1957b7d713e5408f397412d4beb1317c84ded7ce
17:59:40 <Bicyclidine> very helpful error message when your xorg dies, let me tell you
17:59:42 <zzo38> I consider best way would be, design the BIOS, it is compatible with PC BIOS (so DOS programs run, too) and includes a built-in Forth interpreter (instead of BASIC), with the Forth including functions for BIOS configuration, UEFI configuration (if applicable), terminal emulation, etc
17:59:44 <int-e> elliott: it's many parts, all simple and easy (except for the many that aren't)
17:59:45 <ais523_> I've actually been going without Flash on my new laptop, because I haven't figured out how to install it
17:59:52 <ais523_> there are clear and simple instructions that don't actually work
18:00:15 <elliott> int-e: I'm not sure I'd consider any part of a linux system simple and easy :/
18:00:20 <Bicyclidine> anyway, i'm only worrying about this because i upgraded syslinux but pacman may or may not have told me i needed to do some upgrading.
18:00:21 <elliott> the same goes for windows of course
18:00:48 <zzo38> I think this way I describe would help better; you can then program it and that kind of stuff, it is usable, even if you do not have any operating systems installed at all.
18:00:58 <Bicyclidine> i think my favorite linux problem is when my boss was setting up the computer, he did a regular shutdown in the shell and it failed, which i hadn't even realized was possible
18:01:02 <ais523_> elliott: have you seen Ubuntu Browser?
18:01:20 <elliott> ais523_: is that like windows 8
18:01:28 <ais523_> elliott: no, it's /better/
18:01:34 <elliott> what a high bar you've set
18:01:59 <int-e> elliott: well, there's the kernel itself. systemd is getting messy. who understands dbus? udev ... ok, is lots of simple parts. and then there are more or less monolithic desktop environments
18:02:04 <ais523_> it has no obvious navigation features at all, although you can expose a box with a back and forwards and address bar by clicking at the bottom of the screen
18:02:17 <elliott> int-e: you think the linux kernel is simple and easy...?
18:02:24 <ais523_> also, that menu lets you go to another screen, which lists all the tabs you have open; tabs aren't otherwise tabs, they're just simultaneously open windows
18:02:30 <ais523_> elliott: well, it is compared to the Windows kernel
18:02:30 <int-e> elliott: no I was listing parts that aren't, in my opinion.
18:02:39 <elliott> ais523_: googling suggests it's meant for mobile
18:02:45 <ais523_> this is the entire extent of its functionality
18:02:48 <int-e> elliott: sorry. I missed a negation in your statement
18:03:07 <ais523_> elliott: yeah, I actually like it though, although not for actual Web browsing
18:03:12 <ais523_> I've been using it to look at profiler output
18:03:13 <Bicyclidine> though i don't use it on my desktop, probably
18:03:22 <ais523_> I used to use Epiphany for that
18:03:25 <int-e> elliott: so then there's /bin/true, /bin/false, which are definitely easy. :)
18:03:31 <elliott> int-e: I'm not sure systemd is any more or less messy than it ever was :) (though I actually like it, because at least all the complex ugliness has some kind of cohesiveness to it now)
18:03:33 <pikhq> int-e: Not in GNU.
18:03:40 <pikhq> GNU true and false are non-conforming.
18:03:41 <ais523_> that program which removed functionality over time, and collapsed all the menus to a single menu saying "Web"
18:03:55 <ais523_> I assumed that Ubuntu Browser was just Epiphany brought to its logical conclusion
18:03:58 <elliott> Bicyclidine: everything uses dbus, so you quite likely do
18:04:00 <pikhq> elliott: I'm still quite upset about it. Though it's understandable everyone's switching.
18:04:00 <ais523_> no menus, basically no functionality
18:04:06 <pikhq> The perceived options are that or sysvinit.
18:04:11 <pikhq> And sysvinit is... sysvinit.
18:04:12 <ais523_> actually, not enough uses dbus, properly
18:04:19 <zzo38> pikhq: Did you try setting the POSIXLY_CORRECT environment variable? Does that make it conforming?
18:04:19 <int-e> > /bin/true --help
18:04:20 <int-e> Usage: /bin/true [ignored command line arguments]
18:04:20 <Bicyclidine> elliott: Oh, is that so? I thought it was still ubuntuy or whatever.
18:04:21 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘/’
18:04:28 <ais523_> I was hoping there'd be some way to find out which files were open in any given application, and which currently had focus
18:04:29 <int-e> pikhq: ironically, yes
18:04:39 <HackEgo> Usage: true [ignored command line arguments] \ or: true OPTION \ Exit with a status code indicating success. \ \ --help display this help and exit \ --version output version information and exit \ \ NOTE: your shell may have its own version of true, which usually supersedes \ the version described here. Please refer to your s
18:04:49 <ais523_> `run /bin/true --help > /dev/full
18:04:49 <HackEgo> /bin/true: write error: No space left on device
18:04:57 <ais523_> `run /bin/true --help > /dev/full; echo $?
18:04:58 <HackEgo> /bin/true: write error: No space left on device \ 1
18:05:10 <int-e> (fortunately it's a builtin in common shells)
18:05:13 <pikhq> zzo38: No, because it is incorrect to require that. :P
18:05:24 <pikhq> Also, no, that doesn't change it.
18:05:37 <ais523_> we actually found a second way to get /bin/true to return nonzero
18:05:46 <ais523_> set a precise ulimit such that it runs out of memory and segfaults
18:06:02 <ais523_> I'm unaware of any way to get false to return zero, though
18:06:33 * pikhq wonders why /bin/true even needs dynamic memory
18:06:42 <elliott> ais523_: does LD_PRELOAD count?
18:06:47 <pikhq> int main(){} // should do it
18:06:50 <elliott> pikhq: intl for --help, I'd guess
18:06:58 <zzo38> pikhq: You should put return 0 in?
18:07:08 <ais523_> elliott: I hadn't thought of that, so I'm going to say yes
18:07:09 <zzo38> Other than that it should be OK
18:07:11 <pikhq> zzo38: Nope. Implied by ISO C.
18:07:14 <int-e> elliott: neither does replacing the binary by a different one
18:07:21 <ais523_> presumably you --version and hook whatever function it uses to produce output?
18:07:29 <elliott> ais523_: something like that, yes
18:07:33 <elliott> does a clever cosmic ray bit flip count?
18:07:42 <int-e> ais523_: you can add an initialiser function to the .so
18:07:48 <ais523_> elliott: only if you do it reliably
18:08:00 <Bicyclidine> /bin/false is very insecure when run in a solar storm
18:08:06 <elliott> time to look at false's source code ~_~
18:08:07 <pikhq> ais523_: So, Firewire then.
18:08:24 <ais523_> oh gah, I forgot about DMA-over-Firewire
18:08:34 <ais523_> that has to be one of the biggest POLA violations ever
18:08:42 <Bicyclidine> the amount of chauvinism in assuming that secure programs won't be run inside an event horizon is depressing
18:09:08 <zzo38> I have seen once that a computer has a BIOS where its built-in program is a CD player program. However, I think the best thing to include as the built-in program in BIOS is a Forth interpreter, where this Forth system includes low-level system access, as well as perhaps a few other minor things such as BIOS config commands and a terminal emulator.
18:09:23 <int-e> ais523_: but it's fast!
18:09:33 <elliott> getting false to return 0 without cheating looks really hard
18:09:37 <elliott> maybe the impossible kind of really hard
18:09:51 <pikhq> zzo38: I take it you love Open Firmware?
18:09:53 <Taneb> elliott, that is the worst kind of really hard
18:09:58 <ais523_> false's help information is localized, right?
18:10:08 <elliott> but why would that ever exit with 0?
18:10:11 <ais523_> are any of the localized strings passed to printf?
18:10:26 <ais523_> if so, all we need is a malicious locale definition
18:10:26 <zzo38> pikhq: I don't think Open Firmware is PC compatible from what I know?
18:10:33 <ais523_> and we can use the printf-%n overflow exploit
18:10:36 <elliott> are we going to write a false 0day shellcode?
18:10:41 <int-e> load shellcode that consists of exit(0) ... hehe.
18:10:57 <elliott> time to email fulldisclosure
18:10:58 <pikhq> Nothing inherit about it, but yeah.
18:11:11 <ais523_> elliott: I think you need root to install the malicious translation files
18:11:17 <int-e> "local invalid exit code vulnerability"
18:11:20 <Bicyclidine> Taneb: impossible is a good kind of really hard. i mean, computer science
18:11:30 <ais523_> although if you can override the path somehow, you wouldn't
18:11:38 <ais523_> you can /definitely/ override the locale, that's a user-accessible setting
18:11:43 <Taneb> Bicyclidine, only if you can prove impossibility!
18:11:57 <Bicyclidine> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/false.c i'm impressed
18:11:58 <ais523_> `run LC_ALL=malicious_NZ.UTF-8 /bin/false --help
18:11:59 <HackEgo> Usage: /bin/false [ignored command line arguments] \ or: /bin/false OPTION \ Exit with a status code indicating failure. \ \ --help display this help and exit \ --version output version information and exit \ \ NOTE: your shell may have its own version of false, which usually supersedes \ the version described here. Please re
18:11:59 <int-e> "The path used for finding locale data can be set using the LOCPATH environment variable."
18:12:04 <pikhq> Modern Linux does let you do a new filesystem namespace and user namespace, thus letting you do root in your own file tree. :)
18:12:41 <zzo38> That's why, make the PC Forth BIOS.
18:12:47 <Bicyclidine> Act like "true" by default; false.c overrides this.
18:12:51 <elliott> there must be /some/ way to make false exit 0 without root
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18:13:07 <elliott> maybe we should just use a local privilege escalation bug.
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18:13:19 <elliott> it's worth it, to make false exit(0).
18:13:25 <elliott> this is important and we are using our time well.
18:13:44 <ais523_> elliott: I think int-e's LOCPATH suggestion may work
18:13:57 <ais523_> this conversation actually came up in nethack4.org
18:14:08 <ais523_> I explicitly said "what if someone uses a malicious timezone definition?"
18:14:08 <elliott> where are gettext translation files even stored?
18:14:14 <elliott> are they with the locales?
18:14:14 <ais523_> but locale definition isn't gettext translations
18:14:20 <elliott> but we need gettext translations
18:14:22 <int-e> LOCPATH=123 LC_ALL=foo.UTF-8 strace -eopen /bin/false --help ====> open("123/foo.UTF-8/LC_IDENTIFICATION", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
18:14:23 <ais523_> I think they're normally stored in a directory called "po"
18:14:25 <elliott> the point is to make _ return what we want
18:14:31 <Bicyclidine> is factor actually a posix thing, it seems kind of random for coreutils
18:14:44 <int-e> so the printf thing sounds like a good idea
18:15:12 <ais523_> Bicyclidine: I think it's mostly intended for primality checking
18:15:15 <pikhq> Bicyclidine: Not POSIX, but traditional.
18:15:17 <Bicyclidine> «In some variants of Unix, it is classified as a "game" more than a serious utility, and therefore documented in section 6.»
18:15:38 <elliott> okay, so $LOCPATH/$LC_MESSAGES/LC_MESSAGES/coreutils.mo
18:15:56 <elliott> is the file it looks for the translations in.
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18:16:46 <ais523_> and two of those are under user control
18:17:02 <ais523_> including where it's rooted
18:17:39 <ais523_> I guess the first step is to create a translation file consisting of a huge row of %n, to see whether it segfaults
18:17:59 <elliott> I think I'm just going to use this method to run every program from now on.
18:18:07 <elliott> why write a binary when you can use false?
18:18:15 <elliott> this is a way to get around a filesystem having noexec set
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18:18:37 <elliott> using coreutils to jump to code for you
18:18:41 <ais523_> assuming that the _ is going to the printf format string and that it doesn't sanitize out %n
18:18:50 <elliott> that seems like sort of a big deal
18:18:58 <int-e> ex falso quodlibet
18:18:58 <ais523_> actually, if _ doesn't sanitize out %n, it probably should, and that's probably a major security bug that we should report
18:19:07 <elliott> I don't think it interprets the string at all
18:19:18 <elliott> probably there should just be a localised version of printf
18:19:24 <ais523_> screw it, I'm gonna plug my laptop back in and check, even though I should be going home
18:19:27 <elliott> that processes the format string and uses gettext internally
18:20:22 <int-e> ais523_: isn't printf(_("Foo: %s Bar: %s"),"foo","bar") sort of supported?
18:20:41 <ais523_> I hope LOCPATH is at least disregarded in suid programs
18:20:49 <ais523_> you'd want to filter out %n specifically
18:20:51 <elliott> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/true.c#n38 is the promising call here
18:21:05 <elliott> ais523_: you could translate to %s%s%s or whatever, too
18:21:14 <elliott> there's lots of nasty things you can do as a printf format string
18:21:32 <elliott> the program could be storing sensitive things
18:21:39 <elliott> and printing a diagnostic error
18:21:44 <elliott> like, "sorry, these passwords don't match"
18:21:45 <ais523_> bleh, I don't have coreutils osurce here
18:21:48 <ais523_> luckily, the network connected
18:21:50 <elliott> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/true.c
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18:23:01 <zzo38> How to diff more than one history in PukiWiki?
18:23:33 <pikhq> It seems that indeed, it does check if the binary is SUID and changes the path lookup behavior accordingly.
18:23:38 <pikhq> That's probably for the better.
18:24:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `false: not found
18:24:21 <HackEgo> Usage: /bin/false [ignored command line arguments] \ or: /bin/false OPTION \ Exit with a status code indicating failure. \ \ --help display this help and exit \ --version output version information and exit \ \ NOTE: your shell may have its own version of false, which usually supersedes \ the version described here. Please re
18:24:27 <ais523_> Bicyclidine: very high DST offset to change the date
18:24:56 <pikhq> Bicyclidine: zoneinfo file that exploits a bug in the parser?
18:34:01 <ais523_> the make file for coreutils is broken :-(
18:34:07 <ais523_> make install builds things that make doesn't
18:34:58 <int-e> does it compile stuff or is it "just" libtool relinking everything?
18:41:20 <zzo38> Why don't they make it to change the message languages at compile-time instead?
18:42:04 <zzo38> Default setting should be English with ASCII-only, and then other one can be added later on if they want to.
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18:45:46 <ais523_> bleh, overriding the locale is harder than I thought
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18:53:06 <tswett> Slide is totally supposed to be Turing-complete.
18:54:18 <ais523_> no good: all the locale machinery respects LOCPATH, but gettext /doesn't/
18:54:21 <zzo38> tswett: Is it? Do you prove it?
18:54:25 <ais523_> it's not even looking in $LOCPATH for coreutils.mo
18:54:51 <tswett> Theorem. Slide is totally supposed to be Turing-complete. Proof.
18:55:07 <ais523_> I've been doing a bunch of stracing to make sure
18:55:19 <elliott> ais523_: that's because you don't have an LC_IDENTIFICATION file, probably
18:55:40 <ais523_> I'm using the one from the existing locale
18:55:52 <elliott> it doesn't even look for .mo at all when you set LOCPATH
18:55:56 <elliott> maybe they anticipated this
18:56:09 <elliott> I guess grepping LOCPATH over gettext would be productive
18:57:08 <ais523_> no LOCPATH anywhere in the gettext source
18:58:38 <elliott> then how is setting LOCPATH preventing it from loading coreutils.mo?
18:59:21 <ais523_> elliott: if you set LOCPATH, it makes the setlocale() call fail
18:59:28 <ais523_> unless all the things it loads are on your LOCPATH somewhere
18:59:36 <elliott> but I set it to /usr/share/locale
18:59:51 <ais523_> the trick is LOCPATH=malicious:/usr/share/locale LANG=C.UTF-8 LANGUAGE=malicious
19:01:14 <ais523_> also you need to copy the SYS_LC_MESSAGES fallback from somewhere
19:02:06 <ais523_> to the new locale definition
19:02:17 <ais523_> that gets it to actually translate the messages, but it still doesn't look in $LOCPATH
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19:08:34 <ais523_> elliott: haha, path traversal vulnerability
19:08:56 <ais523_> LANGUAGE=../../../path/to/malicious/definition /bin/false --help
19:10:03 <ais523_> the bad news: the %n appear to be output literally
19:10:34 <ais523_> also there's a SUID check on the path traversal
19:10:44 <ais523_> they disallow slashes in language names when the program's setuid
19:11:28 <ais523_> ooh, I think I can edit a different string
19:11:37 <ais523_> some of these strings are tagged as "#, c-format"
19:12:51 <ais523_> yeah, but the makefile seems to be broken, it's not updating the locale definition any more
19:22:14 <callforjudgement> de.po:12125: format specifications in 'msgid' and 'msgstr' for argument 1 are not the same
19:22:36 <callforjudgement> the difficult part is to get it to produce a bugged .gmo file for us
19:23:42 <ais523_> that's what I'm doing now :-)
19:24:20 <callforjudgement> $ LANGUAGE=../../../home/ais523/research/coreutils/prefix/share/locale/de /bin/false --help
19:25:12 <callforjudgement> come to think of it, you don't actually need coreutils source for this at all
19:25:41 <callforjudgement> unless the existing message isn't long enough for your shellcode
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19:28:42 <callforjudgement> oh wow, Ubuntu popped up an error report thing so that I can report the segfault in false
19:29:06 <callforjudgement> and wait until we have some way to get a payload into this before I report the bug
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19:45:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39916&oldid=39915 * Ds84182 * (+198)
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20:54:40 <elliott> trying to make /bin/false exit(0)
20:55:38 <Bicyclidine> It's ten minutes from there to the Pentagon, baby.
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21:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it does look like you're just looking for security holes in the internationalisation system in general though
21:02:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: look, we looked at true.c and this was the only way we could think of
21:02:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: whatever it takes
21:04:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i was just hoping there'd be some small crack in the actual interface between true.c and the locale stuff, since it's so dumb nobody would actually waste time vetting it for security
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21:04:59 <elliott> they do printf(_("..."), ...);
21:05:06 <Bicyclidine> i for one like that true and false are defined by the same file
21:05:13 <elliott> which basically lets the gettext files do things with memory
21:05:18 <elliott> because printf format strings are unsafe
21:05:27 <elliott> Bicyclidine: it's a bit sad that true is given preference though
21:05:49 <elliott> there should be a third file with the actual code
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21:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i had somehow got it into my head in previous mockings of true.c that it looked at argv[0]
21:05:57 <zzo38> Not only unsafe, but also somewhat not versatile enough in some cases.
21:06:09 <Bicyclidine> true. they should use compiler switches to define EXIT_STATUS
21:06:28 <pikhq> Which to be fair is not even really much of a security hole in this particular context. The environment of a program is typically assumed to be trusted on Unix.
21:06:37 <pikhq> Except for SUID stuff.
21:06:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it sets the program name to it, but doesn't seem to do anything unsafe with it
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21:07:19 <elliott> pikhq: I think being able to set an environment variable and have "if false; ...; fi" stuff execute in a shell script (with a dumb enough shell) is rather bad
21:07:24 <zzo38> pikhq: It is generally how I have deal with it too; I usually don't deal with kind of security flaw if it isn't meant to be SUID or remote data or whatever like that.
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21:07:39 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine avoids buffer overflows by not having any buffers!
21:07:41 <elliott> pikhq: one thing this should let you do is bypass noexec stuff
21:07:54 <pikhq> (and as gettext does actually not trust the environment in SUID, well...)
21:08:14 <pikhq> elliott: Basically my point is that this isn't any *worse* than LD_PRELOAD.
21:08:26 <elliott> LD_PRELOAD requires +x, right?
21:09:14 <Bicyclidine> i recently found out the suggested bugfixes for a particular thing for me were (a) LD_PRELOAD and (b) editing the binary
21:09:57 <pikhq> Hrm, I don't know if glibc actually requires +x.
21:10:43 <elliott> noexec isn't meant to be that useless
21:11:29 <zzo38> I don't really like gettext and I have made a simpler kind of thing which could be used for dynamic internationalization: Two things are exposed to the program, one function to load the strings from a file, and an array of string pointers. Internationalized strings in the source code are then replaced by array accesses, and the strings themself are written out to a file (similar to the pool strings in WEB).
21:12:15 <zzo38> I think you could also make it use a pre-existing string file so that existing strings keep their same ID numbers.
21:12:44 <pikhq> Seeing as +x isn't needed for libraries-in-general, it might *not*...
21:13:59 <zzo38> Do you think my way better than GNU?
21:14:16 <pikhq> (incidentally, LD_LIBRARY_PATH is searched for libraries *before* the system configured paths)
21:14:21 <elliott> I sort of think shared libraries should require +x
21:14:31 <elliott> they are executable code that gets executed
21:14:40 <elliott> you can even try and run them!
21:14:58 <pikhq> I'm also pretty sure that it's generally assumed that execute permissions aren't really a security feature.
21:15:10 <pikhq> (whether or not they *should* be is a separate issue)
21:15:38 <elliott> yeah, but noexec exists and people recommend using it for hardening. that's kinda silly because of how useless it is, but given that it exists it should probably be less useless
21:16:32 <pikhq> True, it is goofy that it exists while being *misleading*.
21:17:05 <pikhq> Only preventing cases of pilot error rather than being at all about hardening...
21:22:28 <zzo38> What is a simple way to implement something like OPLL FM synthesis?
21:23:06 <Bicyclidine> permissions aren't a security feature, huh
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21:31:23 * pikhq blinks. LD_PRELOAD on glibc works for suid binaries if the LD_PRELOAD list doesn't have a '/' in it.
21:43:04 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/JBhf
21:44:18 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, i thought there were measures in place for using LD_PRELOAD with suid binaries
21:46:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yep. Apparently it needs to be a library in the system library path, or configured with /etc/ldpreload.conf or some such
21:48:06 <int-e> address space layout randomization
21:48:34 <pikhq> Which is of course the point.
21:48:47 <int-e> (there is no shell code actually; the exit value is already on the stack when printf is called, in the /bin/false binary here)
21:49:14 <int-e> so I'm just poking 0 there
21:49:30 <int-e> or 256, which has the same effecty
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22:08:07 <oerjan> <tswett> Whelp, Funciton is my favorite esolang at the moment. <-- it is pretty nice
22:14:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39917 * Javamannen * (+1855) The Holy Quest for a New and Improved BytePusher has begun! You too can be a Knight!
22:15:16 <int-e> `` diff <(cat /proc/self/maps) <(cat /proc/self/maps)
22:15:17 <HackEgo> 29c29 \ < 7fbfafb000-7fbfb1c000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0 \ --- \ > 7fbfde4000-7fbfe05000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0
22:15:50 <int-e> (without ASLR, the output would be empty)
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22:17:08 <Bicyclidine> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-dUx9fgbW0 feel it.
22:18:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Works in progress]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39918&oldid=39448 * Javamannen * (+20) Added BytePusher II to list
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22:31:10 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523_> I found that 8 became tolerable when I removed edge gestures from the touchpad <-- i have this bug in my touchpad driver that occasionally makes it forget i've disabled that. (and sometimes it instead chooses to scroll whatever page i'm on all the way to the top.)
22:33:08 <boily> Taneb: eh? wut? you... auto tanelled yourself?
22:33:21 <boily> Quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA!
22:33:24 <oerjan> it may have been that bug that caused my blue screen of death yesterday, for the first time. although that may also have been keeping my browser open too long.
22:33:36 <Taneb> boily, I felt like saving you the effort
22:34:45 <boily> no, I'm enjoying the 10% off on québec products at the SAQ :D
22:34:57 <oerjan> i try to restart my browser about once a day to prevent that, but lately i've been having too many shtetl-optimized tabs i don't want to lose my place in
22:34:59 <boily> (we're celebrating la St-Jean à soir!)
22:35:13 <boily> Société des Alcools du Québec.
22:35:34 <boily> exactly right spot on.
22:35:52 <oerjan> is it a monopoly like the scandinavian ones
22:36:07 <Quintopia> the idea of a vinmonopolet weirds me
22:37:07 <boily> oerjan: it is, so they tax us with outrageous taxes, along with some artificial overpricing and taxes on top of it.
22:37:18 <oerjan> "vinmonopolet" translates to "the wine monopoly" you can't put "a" in front hth
22:39:43 <oerjan> ok you can, but you _may_ not hth
22:40:53 <Quintopia> it may translate with an article, but it's still the name of a store, and i can always turn the name of a store into a category of store, and then i can refer to particular stores in that category with an indefinite article
22:42:45 <oerjan> Quintopia: the term for a single unarticled store is "vinmonopol" or to be formal "vinmonopolutsalg" hth
22:44:16 <Quintopia> oerjan: but as a brand name, it's vinmonopolet!
22:44:32 <zzo38> I want to be able to support, in a music playback, to have a 6502 emulation which has registers to do three kind of things: sample playback (with the features of Impulse Tracker), OPL2 emulation (for use with some Scream Tracker files), and Amiga LED filter emulations (for use with Amiga Protracker files).
22:45:12 <boily> FireFly: “tsalg” is more euphonic, I say.
22:45:20 <Quintopia> i think scandinavian countries should outlaw alcohol.
22:45:34 <zzo38> You could have, $0000-$3FFF = RAM, $4000-$7FFF = audio registers, $8000-$FFFF = ROM (bankswitched).
22:45:40 <FireFly> Apparently Norway did, between 1917 and 1922
22:45:44 <Quintopia> it'd do wonders for prices and organized crime
22:46:05 <FireFly> And Finland between 1919 and 1932
22:46:41 <Quintopia> and they still ended up with monopolies? do scandinavian mobsters have no balls?
22:46:47 <oerjan> boily: norwegian really doesn't use "ts" at the beginning of words, except in loan words like tsatsiki and tse-tse-flue
22:47:36 <oerjan> and the less pedantic may pronounce it as just s even then
22:48:04 <oerjan> i'm not even sure which is considered most correct
22:50:00 <oerjan> FireFly: vinmonopolet used to be more than just the store, but the eu forced us to disband the import monopoly part
22:51:28 <oerjan> <FireFly> Apparently Norway did, between 1917 and 1922 <-- only hard liquor afair
22:51:57 <shachaf> oerjan: you were around back then?
22:52:16 <shachaf> only mod. surprising, i suppose
22:52:22 <oerjan> my recall is from some time reading about it, though.
22:53:47 <pikhq> Aaaah, prohibition and temperance.
22:54:01 <pikhq> Such an amusingly counterproductive set of policies.
22:54:18 <Quintopia> the best way to make people quit drinking is to give away really shitty alcohol for free
22:54:33 <oerjan> methanol is really effective for that hth
22:55:28 <Quintopia> it is not perfectly effective though
22:55:30 <oerjan> boily: sure it does, i guarantee they'll quit
22:55:39 <Quintopia> as can be seen in hobos drinking rubbing alcohol when they get desperate
22:56:09 <oerjan> i don't think rubbing alcohol is methanol?
22:56:45 <boily> rubbing is a mix of ethanol and isopropanol.
22:57:34 <oerjan> hi douglass tell kmc we would like him back :(
22:57:42 <pikhq> In the US it's a solution of isopropanol. I imagine the choice varies depending on the country.
22:57:45 <boily> kmc disappeared? noooooooooo!
22:58:48 <pikhq> douglass: Weird. In the US "rubbing alcohol" is defined to be 68-99% isopropanol by volume. :)
23:01:19 <douglass> I'm not sure what the 99% stuff is actually meant for. Maybe for super-cheap people like me who dilute it themselves to save money?
23:02:00 <pikhq> Burning, I presume.
23:04:22 <douglass> Right, alcohol stoves are a thing.
23:04:59 <douglass> I was only thinking of this use as "well, I know that's why people buy it, but I'd think stores would not deliberately cater to foolish college students"
23:05:53 <Bicyclidine> hm why is the preferred name 2-propanol instead of propan-2-ol.
23:06:10 <boily> if you're at a party and a chemistry student offers you some of his homemade «robine» that already smells like vomit even before it went through somebody's mouth once, just say no.
23:07:00 <Taneb> robine = mouthwash?
23:08:15 <Taneb> Oh, rubbing alcohol
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23:11:12 <boily> Taneb: as you pointed out, qc:robine = en:“rubbing alcohol”. we call alcoholic hobos «robineux».
23:11:25 <Taneb> I shall goodnight now
23:11:33 <Bicyclidine> the use-mention distinction there seems odd
23:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> according to wikipedia brainfuck's typing discipline is 'static, strong, manifest'
23:21:25 <Bicyclidine> admittedly i have never run into a type error in brainfuck.
23:23:56 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: having just one type would tend to imply that, no
23:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i dunno about 'manifest', you're not exactly declaring the type anywhere
23:24:55 <Phantom_Hoover> (in fact the ragged edges of the implementation are mostly there because of that)
23:36:20 <oerjan> well you could say that since you never declare any variables, all declared variables are manifestly typed hth
23:38:26 <oerjan> does this mean underload is manifestly typed too
23:39:41 <metasepia> ENVA 232250Z 25009KT 9999 SCT020 BKN050 09/06 Q1020 RMK WIND 670FT 26008KT
23:39:43 <boily> AAAAAAAAARGH STUPID BOT DE MARCHE TOUT CROCHE AAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
23:39:59 <metasepia> CYUL 232300Z 12007KT 30SM FEW065 OVC210 26/11 A3000 RMK SC1CI8 SC TR SLP159 DENSITY ALT 1300FT
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23:47:43 <metasepia> ESSA 232320Z 35010KT 9999 BKN007 09/08 Q1011 TEMPO BKN010
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23:59:07 <zzo38> I cannot get this FM synthesizer to work properly!