←2014-07-27 2014-07-28 2014-07-29→ ↑2014 ↑all
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00:11:08 <oerjan> also one thing i realized when thinking about this; instead of thinking of d as an annoying special case it may be worthwhile to expand its special treatment to _more_ functions: continuations, e (which is really just a continuation as mentioned above) and i all can be implemented more efficiently that way.
00:12:40 <oerjan> e.g. when evaluating `<cont><expression> you can throw away the outer continuation and replace it by <cont> _before_ evaluating the expression.
00:16:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40188&oldid=40184 * Oerjan * (+0) the page title isn't a section, also bold
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00:17:46 <oerjan> i think this, if we have it at all, should go under the recent idea of a Category:Honorable, together with at least bancstar
00:17:51 <ais523_> huh, I'm reading MSVC's list of compiler-dependent behaviour
00:18:08 <ais523_> and it lists unions as being "unreliable" for type-punning
00:18:31 <ais523_> compared to gcc, which says that it reinterprets the bit patterns
00:18:37 <ais523_> I wonder if it does some sort of union behaviour I don't know odf
00:18:38 <ais523_> *of
00:19:02 <ais523_> this also implies that two fields of the same type aren't interchangeable in MSVC, at least officially
00:22:15 <ais523_> btw, I like the current Esolang description of d
00:22:22 <ais523_> it makes it pretty clear how to implement it
00:22:36 <oerjan> d in unlambda?
00:23:10 <ais523_> yes
00:23:33 * oerjan finds http://stackoverflow.com/a/252568/1088108 which says it _is_ undefined behavior
00:23:42 <ais523_> it's basically i that evaluates second argument before first, rather than first arg before second
00:23:49 <ais523_> oerjan: it's implementation-defined behaviour
00:23:53 <ais523_> which MSVC defines as undefined
00:28:15 <oerjan> ais523_: note that it is still a bit tricky because the d of the expression can result from evaluation itself, e.g. ```kdi `.*i `./i
00:28:28 <oerjan> !unlambda ```kdi `.*i `./i
00:28:30 <EgoBot> No output.
00:28:36 <oerjan> um
00:28:52 <oerjan> !unlambda `` ``kdi `.*i `./i
00:28:52 <EgoBot> ​/*
00:29:01 <oerjan> !unlambda `` ``kii `.*i `./i
00:29:01 <EgoBot> ​*/
00:29:29 <ais523_> you have to evaluate the function first to determine what to do with the arguments
00:29:34 <oerjan> yes
00:29:37 <ais523_> in particular, how many arguments it needs and which order to evaluate them in
00:29:55 <ais523_> I'm coming to the realisation that unlambda is much simpler if you interpret it as varargs rather than as curried
00:30:28 <oerjan> well d is the only function which doesn't evaluate its first argument before getting another one
00:30:52 <oerjan> !unlambda `s `.*i
00:30:52 <EgoBot> ​*
00:31:50 <ais523_> oerjan: hmm right
00:32:04 <ais523_> didn't realise that it was visible whether S evaluated its first argument given no second argument or not
00:32:07 <ais523_> must be too much Haskell
00:33:36 <oerjan> i have in fact concluded, but never properly checked, that it is possible to check a function for equality to d without other side effects
00:34:15 <oerjan> (and that is the _only_ thing you can find out about a function without risking side effects)
00:34:52 <ais523_> hmm, can you check `d`ei for equality to d without risking the program being exited?
00:35:27 <ais523_> as soon as it gets any argument at all, the `ei is going to execute, so you can't apply it to anything
00:35:33 <oerjan> nope
00:35:53 <oerjan> the _argument_ gets evaluated before the `ei
00:36:09 <oerjan> and it can raise a continuation so that never happens
00:36:12 <ais523_> ah right
00:36:16 <ais523_> whereas `ei would exit the program immediately
00:36:22 <ais523_> but you have no way to pass it to your d-checking function
00:36:44 <oerjan> well by function i mean an already evaluated function, not an expression.
00:37:27 <oerjan> `ei isn't already evaluated.
00:39:25 <oerjan> while `d`ei can be considered evaluated, since evaluating it alone has no side effects.
00:41:37 <oerjan> it seems i wrote my idea to use ' for already evaluated functions in the meta-notation section. so that would be 'd`ei (the second ` still remains since d freezes expressions, not just functions)
00:49:52 <oerjan> `./i
00:49:54 <oerjan> oops
00:50:44 <oerjan> !unlambda ``` ``s`kc ``s``s`ks ``s``s`ks k `k``si`kk `k``si`k`ki d `.ni `.yi
00:50:45 <EgoBot> ny
00:50:53 <oerjan> oops
00:51:17 <oerjan> !unlambda ```` ``s`kc ``s``s`ks ``s``s`ks k `k``si`kk `k``si`k`ki d .n .y i
00:51:18 <EgoBot> y
00:51:27 <oerjan> !unlambda ```` ``s`kc ``s``s`ks ``s``s`ks k `k``si`kk `k``si`k`ki `d`ei .n .y i
00:51:28 <EgoBot> n
00:51:32 <oerjan> there you go
00:51:36 <oerjan> ais523_: ^
00:54:07 <ais523_> right
00:54:23 <ais523_> and in this case, you can detect d by giving two arguments and seeing which evaluates first
00:54:35 <oerjan> (hand expanded from ^$f`c^$c``$f`$c k`$c`ki
00:54:38 <oerjan> )
00:54:42 <ais523_> now I'm wondering if it's possible to write a k that doesn't evaluate its second argument at all in Unlambda
00:55:10 <oerjan> hm i don't think so.
00:56:30 <oerjan> erm the expanded part being ``s`kc ``s``s`ks ``s``s`ks k `k``si`kk `k``si`k`ki, the actual testing function returning church bools
00:58:51 <oerjan> the only way at all to apply a function to an argument without evaluating it is if the function is d. but how do you get `k x to be d and still contain x
01:03:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunk]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40189&oldid=40173 * Oerjan * (-20) /* External resources */ format
01:05:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Replacefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40190&oldid=40170 * Oerjan * (-23) /* External resources */ format (I don't think we need subsections unless this expands greatly)
01:07:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Topsy turvy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40191&oldid=40174 * Oerjan * (-24) Doesn't need a section, and intros shouldn't start with a section heading anyway
01:09:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VIOLET]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40192&oldid=40178 * Oerjan * (+15) /* Links */ format
01:11:59 <ais523_> oerjan: opinions on the VIOLET code samples and copyright status?
01:12:58 <oerjan> oh i didn't consider that
01:18:26 <ais523_> best to replace them with a link, if they're readily available online
01:19:02 <oerjan> actually
01:19:28 <oerjan> i suspect the repository owner is the same as the wiki user adding them
01:20:07 <oerjan> i also greatly suspect ("buttech"?) this is all a joke, so that nobody but his copyright is really involved.
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01:20:40 <ais523_> btw, the categories on VIOLET are all wrong
01:20:43 <ais523_> "Thematic", for instance
01:20:54 <ais523_> the 2014 also looks wrong, but if it's correct, the copyright is fine
01:21:05 <oerjan> which means that he did grant us the license implicitly when copying to the wiki.
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01:21:35 <oerjan> as i said, i doubt there ever existed a buttech in the real 1980s.
01:22:18 <oerjan> *implied
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01:30:24 * oerjan cannot quite decide whether violet counts as thematic or not.
01:35:37 <oerjan> do we have a way to do spoiler warnings in esolang?
01:35:56 <oerjan> *the wiki
01:37:00 <Sgeo> What needds to be spolererered?
01:37:21 <oerjan> i thought it would be bad form to say outright that violet is a joke
01:38:07 <oerjan> i'm leaving a note about the license issue on the talk page, which requires mentioning that.
01:40:22 <oerjan> ...of course it requires a bloody extension.
01:41:40 <oerjan> ais523_: elliott: do you know a way to do that?
01:41:52 <elliott> hm?
01:42:00 <elliott> a spoiler?
01:42:09 <oerjan> yeah
01:42:16 <elliott> you can do like <span style="text-color: transparent"> or something. maybe transparent won't work there
01:42:21 <elliott> hardcoding the background is a bit iffy but I guess you can.
01:42:24 <elliott> then people have to select it.
01:42:30 <elliott> oerjan: oh, you have CSS access
01:42:55 <elliott> .spoiler { outline: 1px dotted #eee; opacity: 0 } .spoiler:hover { opacity: 1 }
01:43:02 <elliott> then make a template to add <span style="spoiler"> or something
01:43:14 <ais523_> ooh, is it actually possible to type <span now?
01:43:20 <elliott> it has been since early 2012.
01:43:23 <oerjan> i don't think we need a template yet
01:43:30 <elliott> oerjan: note that this won't work on, say, lynx. :p
01:43:40 <elliott> .spoiler:before { content: 'Spoiler: '; font-weight: bold } might be good too.
01:43:59 <oerjan> ais523_: yeah once elliott got _actual_ antispam measures working it wasn't necessary any longer
01:46:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40193&oldid=37995 * Oerjan * (+140) Add a way to do a spoiler
01:49:17 <oerjan> hm it's not showing as a spoiler in the edit window
01:50:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40194&oldid=39394 * Oerjan * (-52) testing spoiler style
01:51:05 <oerjan> elliott: it is not working for me
01:51:19 <oerjan> (PS: i'm not on lynx)
01:52:40 <elliott> oerjan: hmm
01:52:44 <ais523_> oerjan: did you remember to reset your cache?
01:52:51 <ais523_> or, well, force-reload
01:52:52 <oerjan> several times
01:52:57 <ais523_> you don't have to wipe the whole cache
01:53:10 <oerjan> well i pushed ctrl-f5
01:53:11 <elliott> oerjan: try changing outline to border at least
01:53:36 <oerjan> i don't see any Spoiler: before it either btw
01:54:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40195&oldid=40193 * Oerjan * (-9) possible fix
01:55:23 <oerjan> still nothing. is <span style="spoiler"> correct?
01:56:03 <oerjan> and moreover, do any of _you_ see Esolang:Sandbox as something spoileriferous?
01:57:26 <oerjan> maybe it gets overruled by somewhere else (skins?)
01:58:19 <oerjan> elliott: ais523_: do you see something in Esolang:Sandbox?
02:03:41 <ais523_> oerjan: it looks like it would if the text hadn't been spoiled at all
02:03:49 <oerjan> right
02:03:57 <oerjan> so the css has no effect.
02:06:28 <oerjan> hm the dom browser tells me it becomes <span style="">
02:07:27 <elliott> oh
02:07:29 <elliott> class="spoiler"
02:07:29 <elliott> duh
02:07:41 <oerjan> i was just about remembering that
02:08:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40196&oldid=40194 * Oerjan * (+0) maybe use the right keyword
02:08:45 <oerjan> hm now it works, although the spoiler:before is useless as it's also hidden :P
02:10:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40197&oldid=40195 * Oerjan * (+9) try this again
02:10:22 <oerjan> hm no difference
02:10:56 <elliott> set opacity: 1 on the :before
02:10:58 <elliott> maybe with !important
02:11:06 <elliott> and add a space
02:11:51 <oerjan> what space, and where do i put !important
02:11:52 <elliott> might need to be &nbsp;
02:11:56 <elliott> after Spoiler:
02:12:03 <elliott> and after the value (1)
02:12:21 <elliott> try "dashed" instead of dotted for the outline maybe
02:12:31 <oerjan> there is already a space after Spoiler:
02:13:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40198&oldid=40197 * Oerjan * (+17) further refinements
02:13:23 <elliott> not here
02:13:43 <oerjan> apparently you cannot use &nbsp; in the string
02:13:53 <oerjan> i mean, in the css code
02:15:07 <oerjan> the outline also only shows when hovering
02:15:58 -!- ZuuJellyBaby has changed nick to Zuu.
02:16:00 <oerjan> oh and the Spoiler: didn't become visible with opacity: 1 anyhow
02:16:23 <oerjan> although there's an obvious solution, just make that template.
02:18:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40199&oldid=40198 * Oerjan * (-77) simplify instead
02:19:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40200&oldid=40199 * Oerjan * (-26) this doesn't show until hovering anyway
02:20:19 <oerjan> now it's rather minimal
02:23:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Spoiler]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40201 * Oerjan * (+51) let's see if this works
02:23:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40202&oldid=40196 * Oerjan * (-17) Jetzt mit Templaten
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02:28:03 * oerjan spots a typo so ridiculous he just has to leave it there
02:28:41 <oerjan> is the wiki slow, or is my template causing it to croak?
02:30:19 <elliott> the wiki is always slow these days.
02:31:35 <oerjan> yes, but now i've got triggered that "the universe is trying to tell you not to create this page" feeling :(
02:32:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40203&oldid=40200 * Ehird * (+107)
02:32:37 <oerjan> did something happen
02:32:42 <elliott> how does that work
02:33:27 <oerjan> elliott: you realize you just broke my template
02:34:02 <elliott> yeah, but if it works you can make the template better.
02:35:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40204&oldid=40203 * Ehird * (+16)
02:36:25 <oerjan> the inner Spoiler: is still not showing without hovering
02:36:42 <elliott> I can never tell when my cache is cleared :/
02:36:44 <oerjan> now at least i see an outline.
02:37:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40205&oldid=40204 * Ehird * (+10)
02:39:01 <elliott> does that work?
02:39:37 <ais523_> elliott: the sandbox gives me one spoiled and one unspoiled Spoiler: prefix
02:39:37 <oerjan> can we remove that stupid inner Spoiler: , the template is actually handling that bit perfectly well if the CSS doesn't mess with it
02:39:41 <ais523_> apart from that, yes
02:40:00 <elliott> oerjan: this way is better because it doesn't copy.
02:40:06 <elliott> when you select the text.
02:40:14 <ais523_> the added Spoiler: has to be outside, though
02:40:15 <ais523_> not inside
02:40:28 <ais523_> the warning saying it's a spoiler can't sensibly be spoiled
02:40:33 <ais523_> or you'd have to spoil yourself to know it's a spoiler
02:40:35 <oerjan> elliott: i have no idea what you're talking about
02:41:23 <elliott> *sigh*
02:41:23 <elliott> the fact that the inner one is transparent is a bug.
02:41:23 <elliott> beyond that,
02:41:23 <elliott> Do Spoiler: spoilers work?
02:41:23 <elliott> as you can see, the :before one does not copy when text is selected. I consider this a feature, since it is cosmetic styling.
02:41:30 <elliott> (and the spoiler doesn't exactly work at all when you move to plain text.)
02:41:33 <oerjan> ok _now_ i see both.
02:42:09 <oerjan> elliott: i can assure you that IE copies the :before one just fine hth
02:42:53 <elliott> well that is IE's problem
02:42:53 <elliott> no other browser does it like that that I know of
02:42:53 <oerjan> the only difference now is that yours is inside the outline
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02:45:18 <ais523_> it's not as broken as it was, but it's still ugly
02:45:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Spoiler]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40206&oldid=40201 * Oerjan * (-15) ehird insists on putting this in the CSS
02:46:14 <oerjan> ais523_: how does the sandbox look now?
02:46:50 <ais523_> the text that's meant to be spoiled is spoiled; the "Spoiler:" prefix is always visible (this is what was wrong with an earlier version), but is /inside/ the dotted box
02:47:27 <elliott> I don't insist on it. you can do it however you'd like.
02:47:36 <elliott> I think the spoiler text being part of the box is better.
02:47:41 <elliott> having it interrupt the text is weird.
02:47:47 <elliott> s/text/prefix/
02:47:48 <oerjan> ais523_: i'm having a bit trouble with your first sentence as i suspect spoiled means the opposite of how you are using it
02:47:51 <elliott> (in the line before that one.)
02:48:32 <ais523_> oerjan: err right
02:48:32 <ais523_> spoiled as in it's not shown by default because it's a spoiler
02:48:32 <oerjan> elliott: i actually agree
02:48:32 * ais523_ mentally adds this to the list of words which are their own opposites
02:48:32 <ais523_> like "transparent"
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02:51:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:VIOLET]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40207 * Oerjan * (+457) Let's see if the universe will let me save this this time (Warning: SPOILER)
02:52:44 <oerjan> it works!
02:56:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Intolerant]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40208&oldid=40182 * Oerjan * (+45) People seem to have the strange idea these are optional
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02:59:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40209&oldid=40205 * Ehird * (+245) let's try pointless fanciness given how much time and fuss this has taken up anyway
03:02:07 <ais523_> elliott: it doesn't look any different
03:02:23 <elliott> I don't believe you. you have the old thing cached.
03:02:35 <elliott> I do not think it is possible for that CCS to produce, say, a dotted border.
03:02:37 <elliott> *CSS
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03:04:32 <oerjan> fancy
03:04:58 <ais523_> it's updated now
03:05:05 <ais523_> I can only conclude that there's some sort of time lag involved
03:05:13 <ais523_> that does look better, anyway
03:05:20 <ais523_> (I used the same method to cache bypass each time)
03:08:38 <elliott> yes, there does appear to be server-side caching
03:08:47 <elliott> which is annoying.
03:21:55 <oerjan> <ais523> up to this point, it hadn't even crossed my mind that someone might try to make an IDE into a social media site <-- maybe the backlash in favor of anti-social media sites is nigh
03:27:33 <FireFly> Someone tried to make an IDE into a social media site?
03:27:51 <ais523_> yes, Microsoft and Visual Studio
03:28:15 <ais523_> to the extent that Visual Studio Express has to be connected to the Internet every 30 days (or at least once within 30 days) to function
03:29:09 <oerjan> i don't think that particular fact suffices for a "social media site"
03:29:19 <ais523_> no, that's a consequence
03:29:27 <ais523_> not something that made me form the opinion
03:29:31 <ais523_> I pasted the actual reasons a while back
03:29:46 <ais523_> [20:14] <ais523> If you haven't already, your next step is to get a FREE Visual Studio Online account, with Visual Studio Online you can [20:14] <ais523> Create and host private source code repos in the cloud, including Git. [20:14] <ais523> Keep yourself and your team on track with agile planning tools. [20:14] <ais523> Invite others to collaborate on your project. [20:14] <ais523> And so much more!
03:30:09 <ais523_> note: you need a Windows Live account to download Visual Studio in the first place
03:30:19 <ais523_> and then they want you to create a separate Visual Studio Online acconut
03:30:22 <ais523_> *account
03:34:12 <ais523_> the "including Git" strikes me as implying that Microsoft want to copy the success of Github somehow
03:40:12 <ais523_> you know: let's see if VS2012 is still available
03:40:21 <ais523_> that would solve half the issues with VS2013
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03:54:30 <Donald_ET3> esolangs.org seems to be down.
03:54:33 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:54:55 <Donald_ET3> Or is it just me?
03:55:17 <oerjan> bah
03:55:23 <oerjan> it was up but slow just a while ago
03:55:33 <oerjan> `echo hi
03:55:34 <HackEgo> hi
03:55:42 <Donald_ET3> Can we contact an admin?
03:55:44 <oerjan> ok the server is not down
03:55:59 <oerjan> ( HackEgo is on the same server )
03:55:59 <idris-bot> (input):1:31: error: expected: "!!",
03:56:00 <idris-bot> "$", "$>", "&&", "&&&", "*",
03:56:00 <idris-bot> "***", "+", "++", "-", "->",
03:56:00 <idris-bot> ".", "/", "/=", ":+", ":-",
03:56:00 <idris-bot> "::", ":::", ":=", "<", "<$",↵…
03:56:13 <oerjan> argh
03:56:56 <oerjan> the main admin is probably sleeping at the moment
03:57:05 <Donald_ET3> Oh, okay.
03:57:07 <oerjan> (and the other one is even harder to get hold of)
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03:57:28 <Donald_ET3> Any clues as to what is happening right now?
03:57:48 <Donald_ET3> Or is this not a recurring issue?
03:59:17 <oerjan> that it gets occasionally slow is recurring enough. we had a more serious longterm issue until a few days ago, but that seems to have been resolved.
03:59:34 <oerjan> and as long as HackEgo responds it is not entirely dead
03:59:43 <oerjan> `echo i'm alive!
03:59:43 <HackEgo> i'm alive!
03:59:52 <ais523_> Esolang was working like half an hour ago
04:00:03 <ais523_> but yes, now seems to be down
04:00:19 <Donald_ET3> When I ping the URL, it comes back from "c1105889-5122.cloudatcost.com". So, it must be hosted by someone else?
04:00:26 <ais523_> make it more like one hourr
04:00:37 <ais523_> Donald_ET3: pretty much all websites are hosted on virtual servers nowadays
04:00:42 <Donald_ET3> Oh.
04:00:43 <ais523_> and for most people, that implies a hosting company
04:01:01 <oerjan> `uptime
04:01:08 <oerjan> eep
04:01:14 <ais523_> oerjan: can that seriously escape the sandbox?
04:01:19 <oerjan> `echo still there?
04:01:19 <HackEgo> still there?
04:01:28 <Donald_ET3> So, is it the hosting company's fault?
04:01:34 <oerjan> ais523_: i just wanted to see if it was still there
04:01:39 <ais523_> right
04:01:50 <oerjan> wait
04:02:06 <oerjan> if it said anything useful
04:02:11 <oerjan> stupid echoing brain
04:02:23 <HackEgo> No output.
04:02:27 <oerjan> Donald_ET3: we don't know.
04:02:38 <oerjan> i think that was the `uptime finally responding
04:02:38 <Donald_ET3> What is the significance of "`echo"
04:02:49 <ais523_> HackEgo runs shell commands
04:02:53 <Donald_ET3> Oh.
04:02:53 <oerjan> Donald_ET3: just that it's the simplest way to get HackEgo to confirm it's working
04:02:56 <ais523_> and "echo" is one of the simplest shell commands, and thus the most reliable
04:03:03 <Bike> `yes
04:03:29 <oerjan> it may seem that HackEgo is also very slow now, for anything more complicated than echo
04:03:48 <Donald_ET3> `ping -c 1 esolangs.org
04:04:01 <Donald_ET3> It doesn't work. :/
04:04:03 <HackEgo> pong
04:04:04 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
04:04:12 <Donald_ET3> What?
04:04:15 <Bike> network commands have blacklists or whatever
04:04:18 <Bike> `ping
04:04:19 <HackEgo> pong
04:04:24 <Bike> not network ping, obviously
04:04:32 <oerjan> heh
04:04:47 <oerjan> Donald_ET3: yeah outgoing connections from the bot are censored
04:04:52 <Donald_ET3> Oh.
04:05:40 <Donald_ET3> `ls
04:05:54 <HackEgo> ​:-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ unpa \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
04:06:18 <Donald_ET3> Interesting.
04:06:38 <ais523_> the root directory gets full of all sorts of random things
04:06:43 <oerjan> also, HackEgo has a bit weird syntax. you need to use `run if you want commands with more than one parameter or shell features
04:07:13 <oerjan> i try to clean up occasionally. it's been worse.
04:07:27 <Donald_ET3> Okay
04:07:40 <ais523_> `run for x in `seq 1 5`; do quote; done
04:07:46 <HackEgo> 1084) <boily> btw, ^v, what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh? <^v> 300 and USA <boily> nice to see that ^v is keeping with the spirit of the channel by providing completely useless answers to the question. \ 284) <pikhq> o.O <pikhq> There's a birth defect which results in the formation of a cloaca. <Gregor> It's cal
04:08:22 <ais523_> hmm, the shell-feature version of the 5-`quote doesn't seem quite as effective
04:08:44 <oerjan> line length limits do tend to do that
04:09:10 <^v> >_>
04:09:22 <Bike> `quote 284
04:09:22 <HackEgo> 284) <pikhq> o.O <pikhq> There's a birth defect which results in the formation of a cloaca. <Gregor> It's called "not being a mammal" :P
04:09:24 <FireFly> ^_v
04:09:28 <Bike> oh, boring.
04:09:37 <oerjan> ^v: so is your approximate body weigh still USA?
04:09:58 <^v> oerjan, i legidamately dont remember saying that
04:10:23 <oerjan> OKAY
04:10:26 <FireFly> It's the same for me with that one quote
04:10:40 <oerjan> i cannot disprove it either since HackEgo lost access to the logs
04:10:52 <^v> sounds familiarish
04:10:57 <^v> <_>
04:10:58 <^v> but idk
04:11:11 <^v> might have been years ago
04:11:21 <ais523_> `quote
04:11:22 <HackEgo> 692) <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
04:11:24 <ais523_> `quote
04:11:25 <HackEgo> 652) <MDude> A quick look as WIikipedia ways that Wicca is a specific form of paganism related to witchcraft. <MDude> That agrees with what I know from that Scoobie Doo movie with the wiccans in it.
04:11:26 <ais523_> `quote
04:11:30 <HackEgo> 141) <alise> i like to imagine their mangled limbs.
04:11:38 <ais523_> wow, this is a particularly bad set of quotes
04:11:58 <ais523_> I'd be in favour of deleting them all but 1084
04:12:36 <elliott> 652 is good
04:12:54 <elliott> I say "good"
04:12:58 <elliott> all the quotes are terrible, and should be deleted.
04:13:16 <oerjan> i believe custom is you can only delete one, hth
04:13:25 <ais523_> I know
04:13:47 <ais523_> 141 is probably the worst
04:13:58 <ais523_> even if I had to read 692 twice before it became vaguely funny
04:14:05 <oerjan> yeah this alise was a horrible person
04:14:17 <ais523_> and only then the only amusement value is that it's possible to misinterpret fungot as insulting elliott, which isn't actually that funny
04:14:18 <fungot> ais523_: so the cycle is. in emms.el a few
04:14:40 <elliott> oerjan: then let's get deleting quickly.
04:14:57 <oerjan> `delquote 141
04:15:00 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <alise> i like to imagine their mangled limbs.
04:15:47 <oerjan> i'm sure there's some hilarious context that we've all forgotten.
04:16:08 <Donald_ET3> BTW, esolangs.org seems to be back up.
04:16:20 <oerjan> huzzah!
04:18:17 <oerjan> maybe it was doing some maintenance script
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04:41:57 <oerjan> eek
04:42:34 <oerjan> it's dead again
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04:51:16 <oerjan> `hug HackEgo
04:51:24 <oerjan> now what.
04:51:36 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hug: not found
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05:52:31 <fizzie> Not the fastest VPS around.
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10:45:05 <boily> @massages-loud
10:45:05 <lambdabot> oerjan said 12h 16m 52s ago: i'd like to recommend fueue. it _has_ somewhat traditional arithmetic, and *still* screws your mind.
10:45:05 <lambdabot> oerjan said 12h 15m 52s ago: as in, programming in fueue starts at the point where you already master underload.
10:46:08 <boily> @tell oerjan it sounds like a wonderful source of pain. I'll have to try to write something in it.
10:46:09 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:46:46 <boily> @tell oerjan <oerjan> `delquote 141 ← would you like me to unmangle the PDF too?
10:46:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:49:34 <boily> @tell oerjan re. fueue: uhm. well. uuuuh... some other day perhaps. ow.
10:49:35 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:52:48 <fizzie> I keep mentally confusing Fueue and Fugue.
10:55:39 <Taneb> boily, if you have any questions about Fueue, don't ask me, I only wrote the language
10:57:44 <boily> fizzie: I currently am in a post-confused state.
10:58:06 <b_jonas> "post-confused state" hehe
10:58:06 <boily> Taneb: same with aubergine. I wrote it, but other understood it.
10:58:11 <boily> s/r\b/rs/
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11:52:44 <TieSoul> hey
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12:23:40 <J_Arcane> Does this count as an esolang? http://spel.sourceforge.net/info/spel.html
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15:16:41 <TieSoul> hey guys
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15:42:12 <Taneb> Hi, TieSoul
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16:21:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nest]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40212&oldid=34611 * * (-119) /* External resources */
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17:14:38 <TieSoul> I made a kind of shell for all the languages I've implemented. Should I put it in my userpage or make a new page for it?
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17:30:56 <quintopia> oh cool
17:31:22 <quintopia> put it on a code-sharing site
17:31:29 <quintopia> link to it from all the languages it supports
17:31:33 <quintopia> maybe we'll add more languages
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17:33:00 <TieSoul> I'll make a GitHub for it
17:33:10 <TieSoul> GitHub repository*
17:33:44 <TieSoul> and I do plan on adding more languages
17:33:49 <TieSoul> it's in Python btw
17:34:12 <quintopia> i have been thinking about making a universal esolang IDE/interpreter in python
17:34:32 <quintopia> i even went so far as making a list of all languages that already have extant python interps
17:34:36 <quintopia> it's on my user page
17:34:48 <quintopia> but i never went so far as actually starting the project ;P
17:35:01 <Vorpal> I'm trying to work out how to tunnel ssh over http/https (to by pass a proxy at work). But it seems nginx doesn't support doing that :/
17:35:18 <Vorpal> And I already use nginx
17:35:24 <TieSoul> you can add Befunk and Replacefuck to that list.
17:36:00 <TieSoul> as well as Eitherfuck. I implemented it yesterday
17:36:25 <quintopia> ok
17:36:27 <TieSoul> with [ and ] included
17:38:25 <quintopia> i can't find the eitherfuck wiki page
17:38:48 <int-e> it's called eitherf*ck
17:38:58 <TieSoul> and my interpreter is not on it yet
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17:44:32 <TieSoul> I'd rather the shell use interpreters I made though :P
17:45:17 <quintopia> in that case we'll not add code to it!
17:45:51 <TieSoul> You can fork it if you really want to expand on it
17:46:05 <quintopia> can we unilaterally change the name of eitherf*ck to eitherfuck? it would make it easier to talk about and search for
17:46:40 <Bicyclidine> imo eitherfu*k
17:46:55 <quintopia> bleh the *
17:46:59 <quintopia> welp gotta go
17:47:01 <Bicyclidine> alternately, define the * as a shell glob
17:47:14 <Bicyclidine> available names for eitherfu*k depend on your pwd
17:47:37 <TieSoul> eith*rfuck
17:47:39 <TieSoul> perfect
17:48:00 <Bicyclidine> now we're talkin.
17:48:10 <int-e> and now we're not
17:48:17 <Bicyclidine> yeah we are
17:48:20 <Bicyclidine> i don't need ur sass
17:48:28 <int-e> take it, it's free
17:48:56 <quintopia> *itherfuck
17:49:24 <quintopia> i like that it matches zitherfuck
17:49:30 <quintopia> now i want to make a zitherfuck
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17:50:54 <Bicyclidine> zwitterionfuck
17:52:00 <TieSoul_> oh btw the shell is incredibly lazily made.
17:52:07 <TieSoul_> :P
17:52:08 <TieSoul_> https://github.com/TieSoul/Multilang
17:52:12 <TieSoul_> here it is though
17:52:38 <TieSoul_> there's some bugs
17:52:40 <TieSoul_> :P
17:55:06 <elliott> Vorpal: can't you just run ssh on the https port?
17:55:18 <elliott> or does the firewall actually check you're doing TLS properly?
17:55:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Quintopia]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40213&oldid=38316 * Quintopia * (+94)
17:56:03 <quintopia> there i added them to the list
17:56:18 <TieSoul_> nice
17:59:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Replacefuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40214&oldid=40190 * TieSoul * (+137) Multilang
18:00:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40215&oldid=39057 * TieSoul * (+114) Multilang
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18:02:12 <TieSoul_> hi
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18:06:34 <TieSoul> What language should I implement? :P
18:06:41 <Bicyclidine> eodermdrome
18:07:05 <TieSoul> I don't understand eodermdrome too well :P
18:07:13 <int-e> perfect
18:08:42 <quintopia> spiral
18:09:29 <TieSoul> spiral seems really cool
18:09:32 <TieSoul> I'll try
18:11:52 <TieSoul> what's a deque?
18:11:56 <TieSoul> is it like a stack?
18:14:26 <Koen_> TieSoul: http://esolangs.org/wiki/When
18:14:41 <Koen_> you should totally implement that
18:14:58 <Koen_> "deque" is short for double-ended queue
18:14:59 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: can't you just run ssh on the https port? <-- that used to work, but it doesn't any more
18:15:04 <TieSoul> there's so much info on that wiki page!
18:15:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess it checks that it is actually TLS data
18:15:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spiral]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40216&oldid=38317 * Quintopia * (-3) /* Errors */ finally got annoyed by this grammar error enough to fix it
18:15:19 <Koen_> it's basically like a stack or a queue or whatever, except you can push and pop from any side
18:15:38 <TieSoul> oh well that's easy to implement.
18:15:41 <TieSoul> :P
18:15:55 <Vorpal> elliott, so :/
18:16:16 <Koen_> TieSoul: the author's description of the language in the linked mailing list is rather straightforward
18:16:28 <Vorpal> elliott, it is worth trying again I guess though, on my VPS instead of my home server. Could be it blacklisted connecting to dynamic ips perhaps? I don't know
18:17:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder if a plain http proxy will work. If it does, I could run apache on port 80 (my current setup just serves a redirect to https anyway) and have it redirect to nginx except for the proxy
18:17:33 <Koen_> it's basically like a "calculator" of sorts, that is, every line in a program is an expression to be interpreted (like "3 + 4 * 5", or "if a = 0 then 3 else 4"), except there's this cool "when" operator
18:18:40 <Koen_> also the author says his implementation will be available soon and then went silent for over a decade :)
18:19:56 <Vorpal> Hm there is this, but the link to the tutorial is dead. Also it doesn't specify if it uses CONNECT. Probably not? https://github.com/shawnl/nginx-ssh
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18:21:26 <TieSoul> quintopia?
18:21:49 <TieSoul> Are the integers in spiral signed or unsigned?
18:25:13 <TieSoul> And what happens if the ":" instruction gets a char with unicode value > 255/256?
18:25:23 <elliott> Vorpal: could you just do ssh over tls?
18:25:40 <elliott> with like, stunnel or whatever
18:26:18 <fizzie> elliott: Bonus benefit: you can call it twice as secure.
18:26:30 <elliott> yes :/
18:26:34 <elliott> telnet over tls
18:26:40 <elliott> client certificates, woo
18:26:58 <Bicyclidine> use a javascript web shell that uses XMLHttpRequest to do ssh
18:31:38 <quintopia> TieSoul?
18:31:52 <Koen_> TieSoul: where can I try out our shell?
18:32:16 <TieSoul> The python code is downloadable at https://github.com/TieSoul/Multilang
18:32:22 <quintopia> TieSoul: everything is bytes
18:32:31 <Vorpal> elliott, possibly. I'll try it at least.
18:32:32 <quintopia> TieSoul: unicode is unsupported
18:32:47 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure stunnel will work though, I suspect spdy won't work.
18:32:51 <quintopia> TieSoul: but if you want to make it something else, feel free. that's unspecified in the spec
18:32:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean, you'd have to MITM the connection to determine it's http encapsulated in the TLS, right?
18:33:02 <Vorpal> Unless you can do spdy non-encrypted internally
18:33:09 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed that is the issue
18:33:17 <elliott> so they probably don't.
18:33:27 <elliott> so you can put ssh in it instead.
18:33:35 <elliott> okay, I guess firewalls are MITMs by definition. but still.
18:33:47 <Vorpal> Sure
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18:33:53 <TieSoul> Koen_: "our" shell? :P
18:33:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well stunnel to sslh to nginx|ssh would work then
18:34:01 <Koen_> your!
18:34:07 <elliott> Vorpal: why involve nginx?
18:34:08 <Koen_> typing is hard
18:34:11 <TieSoul> it is
18:34:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I still need a proper web server :P
18:34:30 <Vorpal> elliott, For, you know, web traffic
18:34:32 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, is the port actually filtered?
18:34:37 <elliott> or can you just run ssh-over-tls on some other port
18:34:46 <TieSoul> You know, I know someone named Koen irl, and he seems like the kind of person to be interested in esolangs :P
18:34:52 <TieSoul> You're probably not him though
18:34:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I want to serve https as well as being able to sneak in ssh over that port basically
18:35:11 <Koen_> I'm not actually named Koen so we're Kool
18:35:15 <elliott> Vorpal: why not run ssh-over-tls on port 1234567891011 and http-over-tls on port 443 or whatever it is
18:35:18 <elliott> if that works
18:35:21 <TieSoul> ah cool
18:35:31 <Vorpal> elliott, can't connect to any port but 80 and 443 out
18:35:34 <elliott> okay.
18:35:40 <Vorpal> Can't connect to 8080 for example
18:35:45 <elliott> run ssh-over-tls on port 80 then :P
18:36:11 <Vorpal> That might work. Not sure if it allows tls over port 80
18:36:28 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.agroman.net/corkscrew/ https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Tunneling_SSH_through_HTTP_proxies_using_HTTP_Connect
18:36:32 <Vorpal> And I could easily set up a simple daemon to detect real http and redirect it
18:36:36 <elliott> http://dag.wiee.rs/howto/ssh-http-tunneling/
18:36:51 <elliott> http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/linux-and-open-source/using-corkscrew-to-tunnel-ssh-over-http/
18:37:07 <TieSoul> oh btw Koen_ if you didn't see, shell source is here: https://github.com/TieSoul/Multilang
18:37:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I looked into some of this yes. The problem is that nginx doesn't support forward proxying (that is HTTP CONNECT)
18:37:18 <TieSoul> You need python to run it though
18:37:18 <Koen_> yup I guessed that
18:37:19 <Vorpal> Apache does
18:37:24 <Vorpal> But urgh
18:37:39 <elliott> Vorpal: you could run varnish or something in front of nginx
18:37:51 <elliott> but:
18:37:51 <elliott> Tip: If your proxy does not support the HTTP Connect method, see HTTP Tunneling.
18:38:04 <elliott> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HTTP_Tunneling
18:38:39 <elliott> openvpn seems to support tunneling over http, so maybe you could just use that and then use ssh directly inside the VPN.
18:39:07 <Vorpal> Hm
18:39:28 <elliott> httptunnel + proxying through nginx looks like it should work though.
18:39:49 <Vorpal> Hm perhaps
18:40:32 <Vorpal> elliott, So nginx is the public facing web server, reverse proxying to httptunnel on some specific url?
18:40:37 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, how about getting another job?
18:40:45 <elliott> yes, something like that presumably
18:40:51 <Vorpal> Eh, it pays well and isn't too bad usually
18:41:13 <elliott> maybe you could just ask them to allow ssh on port 22 :)
18:41:48 <Vorpal> I believe that has been tried before. No luck
18:42:33 <elliott> github's new issues page is a little disorienting
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18:50:52 <fizzie> I had to have some sort of a really complicated thing when IRCing from the civil service place. Fortunately I've forgotten the details.
18:51:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, :/
18:52:09 <fizzie> This was in 2002, I'm sure the software landscape looks different these days anyway.
18:59:41 <Vorpal> elliott, Huh I wonder if you could use websockets for this. Maybe? It looks like it could be used for that
19:01:17 <Vorpal> Well there is a node.js thing to tunnel tcp over websockets
19:01:27 <Vorpal> I heard node.js is pretty bad though
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19:05:13 <fizzie> http://http-tunnel.sourceforge.net/ has a PHP-based server-side thing.
19:05:24 <fizzie> There are (unsurprisingly) a number of kludgy HTTP tunneling things.
19:05:37 <Vorpal> I'm not a fan of php but okay
19:05:37 <elliott> I already linked one. :p
19:06:27 <fizzie> The one you linked had so orange-on-black website that I couldn't figure out if it uses some particular paths for the requests so that you could easily use a nginx reverse-proxy in front of its server-side half.
19:06:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm looking at the reverse proxy thing for httptunnel. Was googling for how to set up the reverse proxy thing...
19:06:39 <Vorpal> And stumbled upon websockets
19:06:44 <Vorpal> and then I went off on a tangent
19:06:47 <elliott> the one I linked was an arch linux wikipedia page.
19:06:50 <elliott> ...
19:06:51 <elliott> s/pedia//
19:07:34 <fizzie> Well, I mean, the home page of the actual program.
19:08:05 <fizzie> Since the Arch page just says "run hts and htc" with no comments on what you should do if you want also a regular HTTP server at that port.
19:08:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed. But I think a reverse proxy from nginx might work.
19:09:20 <Vorpal> Assuming it isn't doing anything silly, like buffering
19:09:47 <fizzie> I think it does that by default, yes.
19:09:50 <fizzie> You can turn it off.
19:10:00 <Vorpal> Hm, can't find how though
19:10:00 <fizzie> See http://nginx.com/resources/admin-guide/nginx-reverse-proxy/ "Configuring Buffers".
19:10:16 <Vorpal> Oh okay, I was looking at the module reference, silly me
19:12:25 <Vorpal> Now I'm wondering if I can do this over https. Maybe? Can I do it in a sub-path? Who knows.
19:13:06 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:14:31 <TieSoul> alright
19:14:33 <Vorpal> Hm guess I can't specify a http path
19:14:37 <TieSoul> new version of my shell :D
19:14:41 <TieSoul> I added Random
19:14:41 <Vorpal> That sucks
19:16:12 <Vorpal> <fizzie> http://http-tunnel.sourceforge.net/ has a PHP-based server-side thing. <-- there is a stand-alone perl thing too, could maybe proxy to that and avoid php
19:16:49 -!- hektor has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:17:04 -!- hektor has joined.
19:17:36 <hektor> Hi there
19:17:42 <hektor> I just finished writing the wiki page for my new language
19:17:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logique]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40217 * Hektor * (+2490) Created the page for Logique
19:20:10 <hektor> ugh I messed up the link for the interpreter
19:21:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logique]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40218&oldid=40217 * Hektor * (-1) Fixed a link
19:23:57 -!- Lorenzo64 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:32:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spiral]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40219&oldid=40216 * Quintopia * (-18) /* Self-intersecting Code */
19:34:32 -!- adu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:35:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually this one is the only one I found so far that allows using a specific path on the server: https://www.npmjs.org/package/wstunnel
19:35:32 <Vorpal> well maybe the php one before did, but I tried the perl variant of it, and it didn't work properly in a quick local test. So no
19:36:57 <Vorpal> Doesn't seem to support non-transparent proxy from the client tool though
19:36:59 <Vorpal> Sigh
19:37:15 <elliott> Vorpal: you can just proxy the path with nginx...?
19:37:29 <elliott> or a subdomain even
19:37:35 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but obviously the client need to be able to connect to that path
19:37:48 <elliott> I'm not sure I follow.
19:38:19 <Vorpal> elliott, i.e. Some clients (like for GNU httptunnel) only allows you to connect to webserver:port, not webserver:port/myproxy
19:38:26 <elliott> ah. subdomain then :)
19:38:41 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, that would work, as long as they send those virtual host headers
19:38:49 <Vorpal> For https it would need SNI too
19:39:03 <Vorpal> So I'm looking at which tools send vhost headers
19:39:03 <elliott> do you have ipv6 at work
19:39:08 <Vorpal> elliott, nope. :(
19:39:11 <elliott> you don't need https if you're tunneling ssh
19:39:19 <elliott> Vorpal: if you had multiple ipv4s it'd be easy :p
19:39:29 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I could get that, but I think it costs money from linode
19:39:44 <Vorpal> Lets see
19:39:59 <elliott> Vorpal: clearly host it on your home computer and tunnel ssh through ssh
19:40:17 <Vorpal> Well okay, that could work. Hm
19:41:12 <Vorpal> The only potential issue is if the home computer is turned off. Which happens. I generally don't leave it on if there is expected to be thunderstorms
19:41:20 <Vorpal> But I guess I would have to live without those days
19:41:27 <elliott> Vorpal: how about use tor? they have bridges over HTTP.
19:41:31 <elliott> and then just use ssh as normal.
19:41:36 <elliott> I'm actually kinda half-serious.
19:41:56 <Vorpal> Hm. That would work. But wouldn't it be super-slow?
19:42:12 <elliott> tor should be fast enough for ssh, it's not *that* slow. you could use mosh too
19:42:25 <elliott> tor is slow for, like, large downloads, it's actually not that bad in terms of latency and stuff IMO
19:43:10 <Vorpal> elliott, mosh is udp. Good luck with that in this case
19:43:20 <elliott> oh, right, tor is tcp-only
19:43:34 <Vorpal> Also good luck with udp through the company firewall/proxy
19:43:43 <elliott> well, you could do UDP over TCP :3
19:43:51 <elliott> but yeah.
19:44:08 <Vorpal> That sounds ridiculous, but so does all of this really
19:44:16 <Vorpal> Basically everything out is blocked except port 80 and 443 through the proxy.
19:44:31 <Vorpal> Anyway doing proxytunnel.sourceforge.net to home might work.
19:44:40 <elliott> I honestly find Tor surprisingly fast. sometimes I open the tor browser bundle to bypass a paywall or whatever and accidentally end up doing web browsing in it and I notice the noscript more than the speed
19:44:55 <Vorpal> Heh
19:44:56 <Bicyclidine> tor lets you pass paywalls?
19:45:15 <Vorpal> Bicyclidine, some of them is like x free articles / month
19:45:17 <Vorpal> or such
19:45:22 <Bicyclidine> oh, those.
19:45:26 <elliott> yeah, that kinda thing.
19:45:36 <Vorpal> elliott, clearing cookies sometimes work with those too :P
19:45:43 <Vorpal> Like for svd.se (A swedish news paper)
19:45:44 <elliott> that's more work and less cyberpunk :p
19:45:48 <Vorpal> Hah
19:46:03 <Bicyclidine> i thought you meant for something requiring pay to read at all and i was like sign me up for that shit
19:46:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: The major Finnish newspaper (hs.fi) has a javascript localStorage-based paywall.
19:46:18 <fizzie> (Incognito mode/"private browsing" works for it, though.)
19:46:23 <elliott> Bicyclidine: it's true. tor turns your browser into a hacker
19:46:25 <Vorpal> I don't think they do it on IP alone, since that would screw over people behind NAT
19:46:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, right
19:46:39 <Bicyclidine> elliott: daaaaang
19:47:01 <Bicyclidine> technology sure is incredible.
19:47:06 <elliott> Vorpal: I think the NAT thing would be fine
19:47:09 <Bicyclidine> or should i say hacknology
19:47:11 <elliott> since they probably care about home users more than anything else
19:47:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well, some ISPs NAT nowdays
19:47:40 <elliott> I don't think CGN is very widespread
19:47:52 <Vorpal> What does CGN mean?
19:47:59 <elliott> carrier-grade NAT
19:48:07 <elliott> the horrifying endgame of IPv4 exhaustion
19:48:33 <elliott> I wish we had nice network infrastructure.
19:48:35 <Vorpal> I heard of that happening in Sweden (Banhoff maybe? I forgot which one), but if you called them and asked for a public IP they would just give you one
19:48:42 <Bicyclidine> hm, you'd think my university IT would be able to do IPv6
19:48:44 <Bicyclidine> oh well i guess
19:48:52 <fizzie> Bicyclidine: You'd think the same about ours, but...
19:49:33 <fizzie> My ISP's IRC server had acquired an AAAA record a few days ago (noticed because it started giving an "unauthorized connection" error, thanks to the IPv6 tunnel), so perhaps that's a sign they're going to roll it out to customers in the next decade or so?
19:51:06 <elliott> it'd be nice if routing wasn't a hard problem. :/
19:51:54 <Bicyclidine> "NP-Completeness of ad hoc multicast routing problems" boo yah
19:51:56 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep).
19:52:48 <Vorpal> I wonder if I could reverse proxy to proxytunnel
19:53:07 <Vorpal> Or is that just a client?
19:53:18 <Vorpal> Yeah looks like it
19:53:39 <elliott> Vorpal: if you're doing it to your home computer, you can just use stunnel + ssh
19:53:42 <elliott> assuming any TLS works
19:53:47 <elliott> since you don't need a web browser there
19:53:55 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Worth a try
19:59:38 <TieSoul> what language should I implement next? I'm making a mega-interpreter/shell for esolangs :P
20:00:51 <TieSoul> I already have Befunge, Brainfuck, Random, Replacefuck, Eitherfuck.
20:01:12 <fizzie> Eodermdrome, naturally.
20:01:14 <Koen_> try When
20:01:27 <TieSoul> fizzie.
20:01:35 <TieSoul> I am not going to implement Eodermdrome
20:01:36 <TieSoul> :P
20:01:46 <Vorpal> TieSoul, befunge-98?
20:01:49 <fizzie> Well, someone should.
20:02:01 <TieSoul> oh well Befunge-98 is the version of Befunge implemented
20:02:16 <Vorpal> TieSoul, you already done befunge-98?
20:02:20 <Vorpal> What!?
20:02:36 <TieSoul> and Koen_, I'm not comfortable trying to implement an imperative language yet.
20:02:52 <Koen_> it's definitely not an imperative language
20:03:00 <TieSoul> ?
20:03:06 <Koen_> everything just's expression
20:03:16 <Koen_> so I'd call it functional
20:03:19 <TieSoul> I must have the wrong definition of imperative in my head
20:03:26 <TieSoul> :P
20:03:36 <Koen_> brainfuck is imperative :)
20:03:44 <TieSoul> oh
20:03:45 <TieSoul> yeah
20:03:48 <TieSoul> then, definitely
20:04:09 <TieSoul> and yes Vorpal I already did Befunge-98
20:04:25 <TieSoul> Not really that hard
20:04:33 <fizzie> Is it Mycology-clean, though?
20:04:37 <TieSoul> no.
20:04:48 <fizzie> Well, then you have some work to do.
20:04:49 <TieSoul> it goes into an infinite loop at one point and I can't figure out why
20:05:03 <Vorpal> TieSoul, well then it isn't properly working
20:05:07 <TieSoul> the 'y' instruction gives wrong info sometimes and I can't figure out why
20:05:24 <TieSoul> the 'u' instruction works fine, but Mycology says it doesn't work and I can't figure out why
20:05:36 <Vorpal> Mycology is probably right
20:05:52 <Vorpal> I have written two implementations of befunge-98 (cfunge and efunge)
20:06:02 <Vorpal> And I found that most of the time mycology was right, and I wasn't
20:06:30 <Vorpal> TieSoul, you will simply have to add some debug printing to discover the issue. Probably it is testing some edge case
20:06:43 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
20:07:02 <TieSoul> so mycology says "BAD: form feed reflects" and then gets stuck in an infinite loop.
20:07:23 <TieSoul> I have tried fixing it
20:07:25 <TieSoul> to no avail
20:07:27 <Vorpal> Well form feed shouldn't reflect
20:07:46 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
20:07:49 <Vorpal> Wait, what should form feed do in befunge? As opposed to trefunge
20:07:59 <TieSoul> not exist at all
20:08:02 <Vorpal> Let me check what befunge does
20:08:47 <Vorpal> TieSoul, cfunge ignores it while loading the file
20:08:57 <TieSoul> yeah
20:09:01 <TieSoul> I did that
20:09:03 <Vorpal> TieSoul, as in, it is as if it wasn't there
20:09:09 <TieSoul> but then the problem wasn't fixed
20:09:14 <Vorpal> Wait
20:09:20 <Vorpal> Hm
20:09:25 <Vorpal> Nope, it is ignored
20:09:37 <TieSoul> so I made it reflect again for some reason
20:09:41 <TieSoul> i don't remember why
20:10:00 <Vorpal> mycology is probably correct, but the cause of the issue might not be what it says. The feedback from it isn't always the best.
20:10:10 <TieSoul> also, it says "u with zero count does something"
20:10:12 <TieSoul> but it doesn't
20:10:19 <TieSoul> it pops something and then continues on
20:10:21 <TieSoul> :S
20:10:30 <Vorpal> Are you sure? Write your own test program?
20:10:45 <TieSoul> I'm pretty sure I've tested it
20:10:50 <TieSoul> and redownloaded Mycology
20:10:55 <TieSoul> and tested it again
20:11:09 <Vorpal> case 'u':
20:11:09 <Vorpal> if (ip->stackstack->current == 0) {
20:11:09 <Vorpal> ip_reverse(ip);
20:11:09 <Vorpal> } else {
20:11:09 <Vorpal> funge_cell count;
20:11:10 <Vorpal> count = stack_pop(ip->stack);
20:11:14 <Vorpal> stackstack_transfer(count,
20:11:16 <Vorpal> ip->stackstack->stacks[ip->stackstack->current],
20:11:18 <Vorpal> ip->stackstack->stacks[ip->stackstack->current - 1]);
20:11:20 <Vorpal> }
20:11:22 <Vorpal> break;
20:11:34 <Vorpal> That is what I do
20:12:02 <Vorpal> Does that help at all?
20:12:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure you can say as a hard-and-fast rule that reflecting on a form feed is against the spec.
20:12:18 <TieSoul> my code is in python
20:12:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, I remember arguing with Deewiant about that ages ago
20:12:30 <TieSoul> I'll paste it here though
20:12:41 <Vorpal> That or use a pastebin if it is long
20:12:55 <TieSoul> elif char == 'u':
20:12:59 <TieSoul> if len(stackstack) > 1:
20:13:05 <TieSoul> a = pop()
20:13:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc since \n is ignored in unefunge FF should be ignored in befunge (and unefunge)
20:13:11 <TieSoul> if a > 0:
20:13:17 <TieSoul> for i in range(a):
20:13:22 <TieSoul> push(stackstack[-2].pop() if stackstack[-2] != [] else 0)
20:13:28 <TieSoul> elif a < 0:
20:13:34 <TieSoul> for i in range(abs(a)):
20:13:41 <TieSoul> stackstack[-2].append(pop())
20:13:43 <Vorpal> pastebin, I can't read that without indentation :P
20:13:49 <TieSoul> alright
20:13:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: I guess that's reasonable, but it's not explicitly said.
20:14:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, right. I do not remember the details. Search the logs?
20:14:33 <fizzie> I'm not sure I care that much, since it is quite reasonable.
20:14:48 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/517546/
20:15:05 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin.
20:15:13 <fizzie> I mean, the part about ignoring end-of-life markers in Unefunge is explicit.
20:15:25 <fizzie> (The part about generalizing that to form feed is not.)
20:15:36 <fizzie> End-of-line.
20:16:00 <fizzie> I don't want to see any end-of-life markers in my source code.
20:16:08 <Vorpal> TieSoul, and it said what didn't work?
20:16:14 <TieSoul> zero count
20:16:18 <TieSoul> it said it did something
20:16:21 <Vorpal> Hm
20:16:25 <TieSoul> it also said "Can't test negative count"
20:16:31 <Vorpal> TieSoul, zero count or zero stack stacks?
20:16:39 <TieSoul> count
20:16:53 <TieSoul> and also that u with positive count transfers incorrectly
20:17:03 <Vorpal> GOOD: u reflects when stack stack has only one stack
20:17:03 <Vorpal> GOOD: u with zero count does nothing
20:17:03 <Vorpal> GOOD: u with a positive count transfers cells correctly
20:17:03 <Vorpal> GOOD: u with a negative count transfers cells correctly
20:17:08 <Vorpal> Is what cfunge prints
20:17:16 <Vorpal> Hm
20:17:32 <TieSoul> GOOD: u reflects when stack stack has only one stack BAD: u with zero count does something BAD: u with a positive count transfers cells incorrectly Can't test negative. WARNING: attempted recovery of stack stack, situation may be corrupt
20:18:41 <TieSoul> oh also, with y, it says that stack sizes are '[ 2463]'. Is that right?
20:18:50 <Vorpal> Probably not?
20:19:11 <Vorpal> TieSoul, what might happen is that some other instruction used in that test has a bug and then mycology detects that the stack stack isn't correct
20:19:20 <Vorpal> But only as a result of something else going wrong
20:19:24 <Vorpal> That happened a few times to me
20:19:31 <Vorpal> And it is indeed a pain to debug
20:19:47 <TieSoul> only three other BADs before that:
20:19:49 <TieSoul> BAD: 101-{} doesn't leave stack top as 0 and next as 1 BAD: fedcba0{05-} doesn't leave 15 on stack
20:19:50 <TieSoul> and
20:19:55 <TieSoul> BAD: 'vs^ goes down
20:20:13 -!- mhi^ has joined.
20:20:14 <Vorpal> You should fix the first bad first, since mycology tries to test each instruction before it uses it for other tests
20:20:14 <TieSoul> should 's' skip over the next instruction?
20:20:34 <Vorpal> Lets see
20:20:46 <Vorpal> case 's':
20:20:46 <Vorpal> ip_forward(ip);
20:20:46 <Vorpal> fungespace_set(stack_pop(ip->stack), &ip->position);
20:20:46 <Vorpal> break;
20:20:47 <Vorpal> Yes
20:20:53 <TieSoul> huh
20:20:58 <TieSoul> I must have read right over that
20:21:35 <Vorpal> Well what I do is step forward, set the value to the current position, and then the automatic step at the end happens
20:21:43 <fizzie> Even if your s does not skip, you'd expect 'vs^ to go up and not down.
20:21:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, depends on the direction it is going
20:22:27 <fizzie> Well, if it's coming from the left, it'd go up in all cases.
20:22:31 <Vorpal> Yes
20:22:33 <TieSoul> okay I fixed the "s" BAD
20:22:33 <fizzie> Er, right.
20:22:52 <TieSoul> and no, it skips right over the ^
20:23:05 <Vorpal> Maybe it is just incorrectly worded then?
20:23:12 <Vorpal> What about the 101-{} thing?
20:23:19 <TieSoul> I have no idea, honestly
20:23:22 <Vorpal> Should definitely fix that before trying to fix u
20:23:29 <Vorpal> That is probably what messes up u
20:23:38 <TieSoul> I'll paste my "{" and "}" code
20:23:48 <Vorpal> I remember seeing 101-{} error ages ago too
20:24:14 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/g8vOrj4CJGQvtVl66OS9/
20:24:31 <Vorpal> TieSoul, there is a section in the mycology readme.txt on 101-{} failures
20:24:38 <Vorpal> Have you checked that?
20:24:41 <TieSoul> no
20:24:58 <Vorpal> May be worth a try
20:26:14 <Vorpal> I assume there is some debugger for python you can check what is going on internally with?
20:26:35 <TieSoul> Not that I know of, honestly
20:27:07 <Vorpal> I used the pycharm IDE, but I haven't really used the debugger it has
20:27:20 <fizzie> TieSoul: You don't seem to be pushing the storeoffset on the SOSS if the count is negative.
20:27:35 <TieSoul> oh.
20:27:38 <TieSoul> that's bad
20:27:51 <fizzie> (Lines 8-9 of your paste are only executed if a > 0.)
20:28:14 <TieSoul> okay fixed that
20:28:17 <TieSoul> that was pretty bad
20:28:29 <TieSoul> and I pushed the zeroes onto the TOSS fsr
20:28:38 <Vorpal> Here is my stack stack code. Since it is C it is 90% memory management though. http://sprunge.us/dUFe
20:28:57 <Vorpal> It is quite a complicated area of cfunge
20:29:06 <Vorpal> Probably only beaten by the funge-space code really
20:29:11 <TieSoul> okay well 101-{} is fixed
20:29:18 <TieSoul> BAD: fedcba0{05-} doesn't leave 15 on stack
20:29:22 <TieSoul> is still there
20:29:28 <TieSoul> lemme check my "}" code
20:30:38 <TieSoul> erm
20:30:53 <TieSoul> there seems to be nothing wrong with my "}" code for negative values
20:31:00 <fizzie> fungot never has a stack stack larger than one stack during its execution.
20:31:00 <fungot> fizzie: the jungle? where is syntax the user can, in fact, let me know
20:31:01 <TieSoul> that should work correctly
20:31:10 <Vorpal> TieSoul, Check the { code?
20:31:29 <Vorpal> So that the stack before the } is correct
20:31:30 <TieSoul> ...
20:31:33 <fizzie> Also run a simple fedcba0{05-}.@ manually.
20:31:33 <TieSoul> facepalms
20:31:40 <Vorpal> Oh?
20:32:04 <TieSoul> the { doesn't push the storage offset with 0 count
20:32:24 <TieSoul> I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that code
20:32:44 <Vorpal> You know stack-stack is probably more annoying than funge-space even. The funge-space code is mostly just a lot of stuff. Stack-stack is way more complicated per line if that makes any sense
20:33:43 <TieSoul> well, fixing the storage offset problem seems to have fixed everything with {, } and u
20:34:07 <elliott> I found stack-stack quite easy to implement.
20:34:36 <TieSoul> BAD: 0y pushes wrong stack size
20:34:38 <TieSoul> uh-oh
20:34:43 <TieSoul> yeah that's bad
20:34:48 <Vorpal> TieSoul, not surprising. With mycology always fix the first problem first. Since other errors later might be bogus after the first one.
20:34:58 <Vorpal> I believe the readme even said so?
20:35:25 <Vorpal> Or maybe it doesn't
20:35:47 <TieSoul> so erm, y seems to be a bit insane on my interpreter
20:36:06 <Vorpal> TieSoul, y is pretty insane overall :P
20:36:20 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/hJN9ISyljyNAngWufR5w/
20:36:31 <TieSoul> yes it is
20:37:18 <TieSoul> Does the handprint thing matter?
20:37:22 <Vorpal> TieSoul, here is my y-implementation. It is somewhat optimised so it is hard to follow. https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~anmaster/cfunge/trunk/view/head:/src/instructions/sysinfo.c
20:37:30 <TieSoul> because I just used an arbitrary number
20:37:40 <Vorpal> TieSoul, it is the name of the interpreter. It is just a number
20:37:52 <Vorpal> But generally it is interpreted as 4 letters
20:38:04 <TieSoul> oh
20:38:23 <TieSoul> well anyway, the handprint used is 29358
20:38:30 <TieSoul> because well it's arbitrary :P
20:39:34 <fizzie> "tempstackstack = stackstack" doesn't sound like something that'd actually make any sort of copy.
20:39:45 <TieSoul> oh
20:39:47 <TieSoul> god dammit
20:39:53 <TieSoul> me and my carelessness
20:40:17 <TieSoul> well then, tempstackstack = list(stackstack) does make a copy
20:40:44 <TieSoul> Pretty sure
20:40:49 <hektor> you could also use stackstack[:] to make a copy I think
20:40:49 <TieSoul> aaaand it doesn't fix it
20:40:51 <fizzie> A copy of the list of stacks, sure; but not a copy of the individual topmost stack.
20:41:08 <elliott> could that #ifdef __WIN32__ be more ideological? :)
20:41:09 <fizzie> Your 'push' will still affect the topmost stack in both copies, I assume.
20:41:24 <TieSoul> I never thought of that
20:41:25 <TieSoul> ugh
20:42:04 <Vorpal> TieSoul, here is my y output (plus a few lines after) http://sprunge.us/TAAT
20:42:24 <Vorpal> [...] is stuff I cut obviously
20:42:47 <fizzie> (I'd probably just collect all the things that will be pushed into a separate [], if not trying to optimize.)
20:42:47 <TieSoul> alright then, "tempstackstack = [list(i) for i in stackstack] ought to work
20:42:48 <Vorpal> My handpring 1128682830 is CFUN
20:43:24 <Vorpal> <fizzie> "tempstackstack = stackstack" doesn't sound like something that'd actually make any sort of copy. <-- it doesn't probably in python
20:43:30 <Vorpal> you can use copy.deepcopy iirc
20:43:40 <Vorpal> It uses the same mechanism as pickle internally
20:44:00 <TieSoul> well I gtg
20:44:03 <Vorpal> cya
20:44:06 <Bicyclidine> elliott: #ifdef __WIN32__ (void)sizeof(char[-1])
20:44:07 <TieSoul> cya
20:45:44 <Vorpal> <@elliott> could that #ifdef __WIN32__ be more ideological? :) <-- Maybe? Not sure
20:46:20 <Vorpal> elliott, it could be better worded, maybe "windows=not supported" or something like that
20:46:39 -!- TieSoul-mobile has joined.
20:46:47 <elliott> Bicyclidine: what.
20:46:48 <TieSoul-mobile> Alright
20:46:51 <Vorpal> It does work on cygwin though
20:46:54 <TieSoul-mobile> Now I'm mobile
20:47:26 <TieSoul-mobile> So, what does Mycology test after form feed behaviour?
20:47:27 <Bicyclidine> elliott: some things do that as compile time assert failure, i guess
20:47:58 <Bicyclidine> might have got it a bit wrong since i'm not good at C/programming in general
20:48:03 <Vorpal> GOOD: null byte in string and zero compare as equal
20:48:04 <Vorpal> GOOD: ' followed by a byte greater than 127 works
20:48:04 <Vorpal> GOOD: form feed does not appear to exist in Funge-Space
20:48:04 <Vorpal> GOOD: y reports shrunk bounds correctly after spacing top-left corner
20:48:04 <Vorpal> GOOD: y reports shrunk bounds correctly after spacing right edge
20:48:05 <Vorpal> GOOD: y reports shrunk bounds correctly after spacing bottom edge
20:48:07 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, that ^
20:48:42 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, but again, you need to fix the first error first
20:48:47 <Vorpal> Or you get bogus results
20:48:50 <TieSoul-mobile> Alright so my interpreter doesn't shrink the bounds currently.
20:49:13 <fizzie> Bicyclidine: You got it right, and it's done in e.g. the Linux kernel.
20:49:15 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, that is probably less of an issue, as long as it just goes on after. If it gets stuck, that is an issue though
20:49:21 <fizzie> #define BUILD_BUG_ON(condition) ((void)sizeof(char[1 - 2*!!(condition)]))
20:49:27 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, Also the form feed could mess that up
20:49:31 <fizzie> Only if __OPTIMIZE__ is not set, however.
20:49:35 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, Just make it skip the FF
20:49:47 <TieSoul-mobile> Yeah, I will
20:49:57 <TieSoul-mobile> But I can't right now
20:50:04 <Vorpal> Right
20:50:23 <TieSoul-mobile> Also, is form feed what Trefunge uses to separate 2d planes?
20:50:29 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, correct
20:50:39 <TieSoul-mobile> Ahh
20:50:44 <Vorpal> Anyway, y is used for picking from stack later on in the program, so you need that part of y to work at the very least
20:51:02 -!- hektor has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:51:13 <TieSoul-mobile> It says it doesn't but my function says it should.
20:51:24 <TieSoul-mobile> I'll look into it tomorrow
20:52:00 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, easy to get that part of y wrong
20:52:45 <TieSoul-mobile> I used stackstack[-1][-num] iirc
20:52:54 <TieSoul-mobile> Which should work
20:52:59 <TieSoul-mobile> I thimk
20:53:02 <TieSoul-mobile> Think
20:53:20 <Vorpal> I don't remember python indices syntax
20:53:43 <TieSoul-mobile> -num gives you the numth from the top.
20:53:53 <Bicyclidine> foo[-x] is like foo[len(foo)-x], i think?
20:53:59 <TieSoul-mobile> Yes.
20:54:01 <TieSoul-mobile> It is
20:54:14 <Vorpal> Ah
20:54:35 <Bicyclidine> fizzie: funny, when i first saw that idiom it was from much less famous code and i thought it seemed terrible
20:55:38 <fizzie> I've seen a couple of other static asserts.
20:55:56 <fizzie> Of course these days we all just use C11's _Static_assert keyword on our C11 implementations.
20:55:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, the linux one seems complicated though
20:56:08 <Bicyclidine> you're a funny man, fizzie. fun-ny.
20:56:10 <Vorpal> Hm
20:56:30 <Vorpal> why 1-2* why not 0- instead
20:56:42 <fizzie> Because 0 is dubiously legal, perhaps.
20:56:46 <fizzie> GCC extension and all that.
20:56:58 <fizzie> At least 1 and -1 are unambiguously okay and not-okay.
20:57:18 <Bicyclidine> what's gcc give for sizeof(char[0])?
20:57:19 <fizzie> Not that the kernel is shy about GCC extensions, but wherever they cribbed it from might be.
20:57:20 <Vorpal> Ah
20:57:39 <fizzie> Bicyclidine: 0, I think.
20:58:10 <Bicyclidine> makes sense, i gues.
20:58:11 <fizzie> [23:59:50] <fizzie> ,cc -Wno-pedantic size_t s = sizeof (char[0]);
20:58:11 <fizzie> [23:59:52] <candide> fizzie: no output: s = 0
20:58:26 <fizzie> The manual mentions it's a "quirk of the original implementation".
20:59:07 <fizzie> GCC also allows an empty struct in C code, also with a size of 0.
20:59:15 <fizzie> (C++ allows that in general, but it has a size of 1.)
21:00:10 <Bicyclidine> lol awesome
21:00:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seem it used as generic arguments for templates mostly, tagging I think it is called
21:00:15 <Vorpal> In C++ that is
21:00:56 <fizzie> It seems to have less uses in C, except perhaps with some sort of preprocessor (ab)use that might sometimes end up with an empty struct if, say, no features are enabled or whatnot.
21:02:38 <Vorpal> Hm
21:05:28 <fizzie> I think people should use more switch statements where the body is not a block statement.
21:05:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, any code in particular?
21:06:02 <Vorpal> Anyway you can use switch for almost anything
21:06:10 <Vorpal> Also mix it with traditional if/else
21:06:17 <fizzie> I don't have any reasonable examples, I just think it looks funny.
21:06:50 <Bicyclidine> i for one only use switch for duff's device
21:06:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm not sure what you mean with "not a block statement"
21:07:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Something like switch (x) case 0: if (y) { foo(); default: bar(); } for example.
21:07:29 <Vorpal> Ah yes
21:08:55 <fizzie> That's something like if (!x && y) { foo(); bar(); } else if (x) { bar(); }
21:09:17 <Vorpal> Yes
21:09:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, also mix this with goto for extra fun
21:15:21 <fizzie> Regarding Duff's device, I don't understand why it's always written http://sprunge.us/aTIH?c and not http://sprunge.us/ZMDh?c instead.
21:15:40 <elliott> fizzie: the former looks freakier.
21:15:56 <elliott> switch-do-while is some control structure, though.
21:16:14 <elliott> is "switch (foo) default: ;" valid??
21:16:18 <elliott> oh, I guess labels have to be within a block
21:16:43 <fizzie> No, I think that's just fine.
21:16:58 <Bicyclidine> fizzie: i spent like five minutes just now trying to figure out the first, so bless you and your readable insane code
21:17:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Topsy turvy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40220&oldid=40191 * * (+35)
21:17:08 <elliott> fizzie: really.
21:17:11 <fizzie> [00:18:51] <fizzie> ,cc switch (0) default: ;
21:17:11 <fizzie> [00:18:53] <candide> fizzie: Success (no output).
21:17:19 <elliott> jesus.
21:17:27 <Bicyclidine> hell yeah.
21:17:32 <elliott> switch (n) foo: { case 0: ... ; ... }
21:17:39 <elliott> my mental parser really does not recognise that as C.
21:17:51 <Bicyclidine> mine doesn't recognize duff's as C, so, hooray
21:17:52 <fizzie> switch (x) case 1: f(); is a good automatic replacement for if (x == 1) f(); in your codebase.
21:17:59 <elliott> fizzie: what about switch (n) case 0: { ...; case 1: ...; }
21:18:01 <Bicyclidine> @_@
21:18:04 <elliott> please tell me that's not valid
21:18:31 <fizzie> I think you can label a block statement, yes.
21:19:13 <fizzie> Also switch (x) do case 0: { ...; case 1: ...; } while (z);
21:19:40 <Vorpal> elliott, hm do we have a bot in here that can do C?
21:19:56 <Vorpal> !c printf("test");
21:20:01 <EgoBot> test
21:20:12 <elliott> % cat >test.c
21:20:12 <elliott> #include <stdio.h>
21:20:12 <elliott> int main(int argc, char **argv) { switch (argc) case 1: { puts("1"); case 2: puts("2"); } }
21:20:15 <elliott> % clang test.c && ./a.out && ./a.out x
21:20:17 <elliott> 1
21:20:20 <elliott> 2
21:20:22 <elliott> 2
21:20:24 <elliott> why haven't I seen this in obfuscated C before
21:20:27 <elliott> I'm crying
21:20:31 <Vorpal> !c int n = 0; switch (n) case 0: { printf("0"); case 1: printf("1"); }
21:20:33 <EgoBot> 01
21:20:37 <Vorpal> !c int n = 1; switch (n) case 0: { printf("0"); case 1: printf("1"); }
21:20:39 <EgoBot> 1
21:20:40 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is valid
21:20:55 <Vorpal> It is terrible, but it is valid
21:21:00 <Vorpal> !c int n = 1; switch (n) case 0: printf("0"); case 1: printf("1");
21:21:02 <EgoBot> Does not compile.
21:21:05 <Vorpal> Fair enough
21:21:20 <elliott> !c switch (1) if (0) { case 0: puts("0"); break; case 1: puts("1"); break; }
21:21:22 <EgoBot> 1
21:21:24 <fizzie> [00:22:59] <fizzie> ,cc for (int i = 0, j = 0; i < 2; i++, j = 0) switch (i) do case 0: { putchar('a'); case 1: putchar('b'); } while (j++ < i);
21:21:25 <elliott> jesus. jesus
21:21:28 <fizzie> [00:23:00] <candide> fizzie: abbab
21:21:30 <fizzie> Best code.
21:21:35 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you know?
21:21:36 <Bicyclidine> it's okay elliott, i'm here for you
21:21:41 <Vorpal> Hm
21:21:45 <elliott> Vorpal: I didn't know you could do switch (...) case foo:, at least.
21:22:01 <elliott> I knew switch and blocks were weird, but I assumed you pretty much needed a {} block after switch.
21:22:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I think you can't start switch inside a scope that you exit before the last case though
21:22:29 <Vorpal> But everything else is just fine
21:22:34 <Vorpal> Pretty much
21:22:38 <fizzie> Sadly, a function body does need to be a compound statement.
21:22:39 <elliott> !c switch (0) if ( ({ case 0: puts("0"); 1 }) ) case 1: puts("1");
21:22:41 <EgoBot> Does not compile.
21:22:44 <elliott> :/
21:22:47 <elliott> because gcc extension?
21:23:05 <Vorpal> elliott, sorry, what is that supposed to be?
21:23:06 <Bicyclidine> using a block as an expression, huh
21:23:13 <fizzie> int f(int x) return x+2; would look so modern.
21:23:15 <elliott> Vorpal: a gcc statement-expression
21:23:19 <Vorpal> Oh okay
21:23:21 <elliott> and, also: horrifying
21:23:23 <Vorpal> *googles*
21:23:53 <Vorpal> They what? In C?!
21:23:59 <Vorpal> How modern
21:24:06 <Bicyclidine> the nerve
21:24:10 <Vorpal> Indeed!
21:24:20 <fizzie> You have expression statements, so why not statement expressions.
21:24:30 <Vorpal> expression statements?
21:24:33 <Bicyclidine> it's only fair
21:24:40 <fizzie> Most statements are expression statements.
21:24:40 <elliott> % cat >test.c
21:24:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, Do you mean normal C?
21:24:43 <elliott> #include <stdio.h>
21:24:43 <fizzie> Yes.
21:24:43 <Vorpal> Right
21:24:45 <elliott> int main(int argc, char **argv) { switch (argc) if ( ({ case 1: puts("1"); 1; }) ) case 2: puts("2"); }
21:24:48 <elliott> % clang test.c && ./a.out && ./a.out x
21:24:51 <elliott> 1
21:24:53 <elliott> 2
21:24:56 <elliott> 2
21:24:58 <elliott> fuck.
21:25:01 <elliott> jesus. fuck
21:25:11 <Vorpal> heh
21:25:16 <Bicyclidine> this channel always finds new ways to justify my move away from CS
21:25:26 <Vorpal> elliott, switch is basically a slightly restricted goto then?
21:25:36 <Vorpal> That is what it seems like to me
21:25:50 <elliott> can you even goto the inside of a statement expression like that normally
21:25:55 <Bicyclidine> also i can't read what this code is doing, at all
21:25:56 <fizzie> elliott: Sadly, what you did is not legal, even if it does compile.
21:26:09 <fizzie> "Jumping into a statement expression with goto or using a switch statement outside the statement expression with a case or default label inside the statement expression is not permitted. Jumping into a statement expression with a computed goto (see Labels as Values) has undefined behavior. Jumping out of a statement expression is permitted, but if the statement expression is part of a larger ...
21:26:12 <Vorpal> elliott, that I don't know. But I meant with standard C, not GCC extensions
21:26:15 <fizzie> ... expression then it is unspecified which other subexpressions of that expression have been evaluated except where the language definition requires certain subexpressions to be evaluated before or after the statement expression."
21:26:32 <elliott> % cat >test.c
21:26:32 <elliott> #include <stdio.h>
21:26:32 <elliott> int main(int argc, char **argv) { goto q; if ( ({ q: 1; }) ) puts("1"); }
21:26:32 <elliott> % clang test.c && ./a.out
21:26:33 <elliott> 1
21:26:35 <elliott> okay, yeah.
21:26:46 <elliott> fizzie: right.
21:26:48 <elliott> fizzie: still.
21:27:16 <fizzie> Perhaps clang actually allows it?
21:27:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder if there is some crazy thing you can invent by mixing switch and goto
21:27:21 <Vorpal> not sure
21:27:26 <fizzie> Because I get a "error: switch jumps into statement expression" out of GCC for that.
21:27:59 <elliott> proof that clang is better.
21:28:02 <fizzie> And the manual did make it sound like it'd be a compile-time error, except for the computed-goto case, which of course can't be.
21:28:09 <elliott> fizzie: (imagine being the one to write that error message)
21:28:36 <Vorpal> Does gcc support gettext?
21:28:46 <Vorpal> I wonder what it would be like translating all these things
21:28:52 <elliott> yes, gcc is localised
21:28:54 <Vorpal> Like hell probably
21:29:03 <elliott> it's not that many error messages.
21:29:14 <Vorpal> Hm
21:29:22 <elliott> translating a large GUI application sounds scarier
21:29:22 <Vorpal> LC_ALL doesn't localize for me
21:29:31 <Vorpal> Maybe I don't have Swedish installed for gcc?
21:29:54 <Vorpal> elliott, sure, but the terminology in something like a word processor is far easier in Swedish than it is for a compiler
21:30:02 <Vorpal> what do I even call a statement expression in Swedish?
21:31:22 <Vorpal> I guess I don't have Swedish localisation installed huh
21:33:03 <fizzie> Debian packages it as gcc-X.Y-locales.
21:33:12 <fizzie> I don't have them installed, either; it's not done by default.
21:33:44 <fizzie> Heh.
21:33:49 <Vorpal> Aah
21:33:53 <fizzie> They haven't managed to translate "statement expression" to Finnish.
21:34:04 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/KOZX
21:34:08 <Vorpal> coreutils isn't translated either
21:34:19 <Vorpal> That is strange
21:34:25 <fizzie> It knows how to say "virhe:" but not the actual contents.
21:34:27 <Vorpal> I expected ls --help to be localized
21:35:11 <fizzie> "LANGUAGE=fi ls --help" just translates the first line.
21:35:19 <elliott> they probably removed the localisation from coreutils because of all those security bugs.
21:35:22 <fizzie> The "Usage:" one.
21:35:39 <fizzie> Oh, also the descriptions for --help and --version options.
21:35:55 <fizzie> Oh, and some others here and there. But not all options.
21:36:10 <Vorpal> Hm
21:36:15 <Vorpal> None for me
21:36:31 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/CFTi that's just ridiculous
21:36:34 <fizzie> How are you testing for it?
21:36:55 <elliott> (did anyone report that one?)
21:37:04 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:37:04 <fizzie> These days LC_MESSAGES/LC_ALL is overridden by LANGUAGE if set, at least.
21:37:40 <Vorpal> Oh?
21:37:42 <Vorpal> Why
21:38:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I tried LANGUAGE, LC_MESSAGES and LC_ALL
21:39:00 <fizzie> I don't know. Perhaps because LANGUAGE can provide a priority list instead of just a single option.
21:39:02 <Vorpal> none of them work
21:39:03 <Vorpal> Weird
21:39:43 <Vorpal> Anyway, good night
21:40:26 <fizzie> Nights.
21:46:06 -!- TieSoul has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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21:46:39 -!- TieSoul has joined.
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21:48:03 <boily> ~metar CYUL
21:48:04 <metasepia> CYUL 282100Z 36012G17KT 12SM -RA FEW010 OVC023 17/15 A2961 RMK SF1SC8 SF TR SLP027 DENSITY ALT 600FT
21:48:22 <fizzie> ~metar EFHK
21:48:22 <metasepia> EFHK 282120Z 21007KT CAVOK 24/20 Q1012 NOSIG
21:48:27 <fizzie> It is ridiculous.
21:48:38 <Bicyclidine> nosig...nal?
21:48:38 <fizzie> There is +28.9°C inside here.
21:48:43 <quintopia> ~metar KATL
21:48:44 <metasepia> KATL 282052Z 30018G25KT 10SM FEW070 SCT200 31/16 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP116 CB DSNT E-SE-S-SW T03110156 57009
21:48:47 <fizzie> Bicyclidine: nosig-nificant.
21:48:51 <Bicyclidine> oh.
21:49:09 <fizzie> (Changes, expected.)
21:49:10 <quintopia> boily: jealous
21:51:43 <boily> quintopia: what the fungot are you doing over there with a nice 31 outside you AAAAAAAAAARGH!
21:51:43 <fungot> boily: and i got the patches but haven't yet used java 1.5/ 5.0, there are no loops, the fnord might want to compile
21:52:01 * boily throws a fnord
21:52:10 <quintopia> boily: slowly roasting alive
21:55:37 <olsner> fungot: has the heat gotten to you yet?
21:55:37 <fungot> olsner: yes, so i suppose not.... that'd just call lynx ( or whatever that small picture is called that appears in the source code
21:55:55 <quintopia> ^styles
21:55:59 <quintopia> ^style
21:55:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:56:15 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
22:07:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:09:46 <oerjan> wait, does the topic mean fungot also hates ops? elliott, you should be careful.
22:09:46 <fungot> oerjan: " jython" at
22:10:07 <elliott> what does ampersand have to do with ops?
22:11:10 <oerjan> oh wait
22:11:26 <oerjan> sorry, my brain apparently cannot distinguish @ and & today
22:11:33 <elliott> :)
22:11:50 <oerjan> &messages-
22:11:54 <oerjan> WHY NO WORK
22:11:59 <oerjan> ?messages-
22:11:59 <lambdabot> boily said 11h 25m 50s ago: it sounds like a wonderful source of pain. I'll have to try to write something in it.
22:11:59 <lambdabot> boily said 11h 25m 12s ago: <oerjan> `delquote 141 ← would you like me to unmangle the PDF too?
22:12:00 <lambdabot> boily said 11h 22m 24s ago: re. fueue: uhm. well. uuuuh... some other day perhaps. ow.
22:12:05 <olsner> oerjan: no at, no work
22:12:19 <oerjan> olsner: sounds plausible
22:12:28 <oerjan> boily: *MWAHAHAHA*
22:12:46 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:13:51 <elliott> I always get such a profound sense of how unfunny we are when reading wisdom.pdf.
22:13:57 <olsner> what was quote 141, btw?
22:14:27 <Bicyclidine> my mom thinks i'm funny, elliott.
22:14:30 <oerjan> elliott: it's ok, ais523 balances it out by nearly dying of laughter
22:14:45 <elliott> `? bc
22:14:46 <HackEgo> bc ௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵
22:14:53 <olsner> ah
22:14:55 <elliott> oerjan: ?
22:15:38 <Sgeo> shachaf: Ada tasks remind me of actors, although there's something a bit off about them (in particular, is it possible to abstract out accepts behind procedures?)
22:15:38 <oerjan> elliott: haven't you seen ais523's messages about how he cannot read too many quotes at a time?
22:15:45 -!- SgeoWeb has joined.
22:15:47 <Sgeo> And my computer is slow to send, of course. I made that Ada statement before seeing anything about wisdom.pdf
22:15:50 -!- SgeoWeb has quit (Client Quit).
22:16:02 <elliott> oerjan: I admit I honestly cannot comprehend the idea of someone who finds the qdb that funny.
22:16:41 <elliott> `? diet
22:16:42 <HackEgo> People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
22:16:46 <elliott> some of these are truly baffling.
22:17:41 <oerjan> i'll agree on that one.
22:18:05 <oerjan> perhaps there's a pun in there somewhere
22:18:15 <boily> there is content in the PDF. that I can ascertain.
22:18:15 <oerjan> no wait
22:18:31 <oerjan> i think the point is all the misspellings, somehow
22:18:46 <elliott> there's only two misspellings.
22:19:23 <elliott> `? godot
22:19:23 <HackEgo> cf. elliott
22:19:24 <oerjan> i dunno, maybe the second diet is a misspelling for something that actually makes sense there
22:19:51 <elliott> I would like to understand this entry. (yes, I know the play.)
22:19:53 <oerjan> i suppose some of those only made sense in long lost context.
22:20:10 <oerjan> elliott: maybe it was added during one of your long absenses
22:20:15 <oerjan> *c
22:20:29 <oerjan> `? elliott
22:20:30 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire. And a lystrosaur.
22:20:47 <Bicyclidine> oh i remember the lystrosaur one. because lystrosaurs are great.
22:21:40 <Bicyclidine> i mean it's gibberish without context though.
22:22:32 <oerjan> `? lystrosaur
22:22:33 <HackEgo> The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic.
22:23:17 <oerjan> possibly the truest entry in the wisdom.
22:24:10 <elliott> can I just delete the learndb?
22:24:17 <Bicyclidine> psh, if you're a moral realism
22:24:23 <Bicyclidine> realist
22:24:37 <Bicyclidine> elliott wrote this learn DB, and then destr
22:25:42 <oerjan> elliott: what do you have against lystrosaurs
22:25:57 <elliott> oerjan: I have low self-esteem.
22:26:06 <oerjan> elliott: i wonder if you've grown up too much lately
22:26:20 <elliott> I was always grumpy and cynical!
22:26:35 <oerjan> hm true
22:26:42 <elliott> I'm probably less grumpy and cynical now than I was, like, three years ago. it's just I haven't eaten enough today.
22:26:57 <oerjan> food, our eternal nemesis
22:26:59 <elliott> (I still think the learndb sucks.)
22:27:31 <fizzie> Today's featured misreading: "I was always grumpy and cylindrical!"
22:28:44 <elliott> `? M&ndash;rdalsj&ouml;kull
22:28:45 <HackEgo> M&ndash;rdalsj&ouml;kull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base.
22:30:14 <Bicyclidine> makes sense
22:31:17 <oerjan> i remember the volcano, but not why that was added with html entities
22:31:40 <boily> context is probably the most volatile substance in the universe.
22:32:08 <oerjan> also why an &ndash;
22:33:04 * boily shrugs
22:33:09 <Bicyclidine> most volatile compound in the universe is C2N14, hth.
22:34:00 <Bicyclidine> 1-diazidocarbamoyl-5-azidotetrazole, woo yea
22:35:03 <oerjan> boily: hm, regarding unmangling, i guess we haven't deleted many quotes since you started the pdf? it used to be a semi-regular event.
22:35:35 <boily> right.
22:36:12 <oerjan> as a result, there are far more new than old quotes, i think
22:36:52 <elliott> we could always start again.
22:36:57 <elliott> there's lots of ones that deserve deleting. :p
22:37:14 <boily> elliott: you have full commit access rights to the repo. please yourself!
22:37:21 -!- TieSoul-mobile has joined.
22:37:21 <elliott> I meant in HackEgo.
22:37:22 <oerjan> well, we had one yesterday, which is why boily asked
22:37:25 <b_jonas> Bicyclidine: be careful to mention that only in approperiate contexts. people might hear it and run for their lives thinking there's some danger.
22:37:27 <elliott> I'm not touching wisdom.pdf.
22:37:32 <TieSoul-mobile> Hey
22:37:42 <quintopia> hey
22:37:49 <oerjan> hiesoul
22:37:52 <elliott> `? shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj
22:37:53 <HackEgo> shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj is the reason why the USA don't use the metric system.
22:38:07 <elliott> seriously, I don't know what goes through your mind when you decide to add this.
22:38:18 <oerjan> i doubt that was my mind
22:38:28 <oerjan> (i did the lystrosaur one, i'm pretty sure)
22:39:22 <boily> elliott: that one isn't from me. or if it is, I deny any responsibility.
22:39:49 <oerjan> the repository should allow that to be checked easily
22:39:52 <elliott> `? sgeolang
22:39:53 <HackEgo> sgeolang currently is either J or Io.
22:39:56 <elliott> this is, like, years out of date.
22:40:27 <oerjan> what is sgeolang today? i think he said something about ruby recently
22:40:34 <Bicyclidine> https://twitter.com/PHP_CEO
22:40:50 <elliott> I think it would be cool if Sgeo started speaking in different natural languages every month.
22:40:51 <quintopia> boily: what is the context for the draconic volcanno
22:41:03 <elliott> there's an alternate universe in which this is a conlangs channel and that happens.
22:41:34 <oerjan> ooh
22:41:35 <boily> quintopia: I have no fungotting clue about that one. let me grep through the logs...
22:41:36 <fungot> boily: i was only so excited to see you too, and it
22:41:46 <quintopia> can that alternate universe be this one?
22:41:51 <boily> fungot: I remember last time you were excited to see me.
22:41:51 <fungot> boily: ( not something)...) it can always be reverted."?
22:41:56 <elliott> quintopia: with enough engineering.
22:42:02 <quintopia> sufff' saô nia pinta&n
22:42:03 <Bicyclidine> one language a month sounds pretty fast, you'd need mechanical help
22:43:31 <boily> quintopia: 2014-02-13 19:07:36 metasepia an active volcano in southern Iceland, with an elevation of 970 m, covered by the southeastern part of the M&ndash;rdalsj&ouml;kull Glacier.
22:43:44 <boily> (still, it doesn't answer why the ndash.)
22:44:18 <quintopia> or why it became draconic
22:44:30 <quintopia> and how KATL got translated to iceland
22:44:50 <oerjan> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE WHERE SGEO DOES NATLANGS INSTEAD OF PROGLANGS: <Sgeo> Jeg vet ikke om norsk er noe for meg, i vs. på for stedsnavn virker veldig kronglete.
22:44:52 <HackEgo> 1213) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE WHERE SGEO DOES NATLANGS INSTEAD OF PROGLANGS: <Sgeo> Jeg vet ikke om norsk er noe for meg, i vs. på for stedsnavn virker veldig kronglete.
22:45:18 <boily> here we go...
22:45:25 <Bicyclidine> you know, 'natural language' means one that's actually... natural, right? if it's a conlang made to look like a natural language that's just that
22:45:55 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: which is why i didn't use a conlang
22:46:10 <elliott> Bicyclidine: but sgeo talks about non-esoteri languages here
22:46:11 <Bicyclidine> ooh
22:46:12 <elliott> *esoteric
22:46:16 <elliott> so they'd be natural languages.
22:46:18 <quintopia> it clearly says "norsk"
22:46:21 <quintopia> cmon
22:46:31 <Bicyclidine> people make conlangs that have cognates with real languages!
22:46:55 <quintopia> google knows the difference
22:49:01 <oerjan> quintopia: KATL is presumably iceland because of Katla
22:49:20 <quintopia> oerjan: ok
22:49:33 <quintopia> the learndb is esoteric jokes
22:50:25 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
22:50:53 -!- mhi^ has joined.
22:51:54 <oerjan> hm is J_Arcane idle or not
22:53:21 <oerjan> J_Arcane: are you there
22:56:12 -!- edwardk has joined.
23:00:15 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CYLINDRICAL CHICKEN).
23:00:17 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:00:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nest]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40221&oldid=40212 * Oerjan * (+148) I disapprove of removing dead links without notice. Also we generally don't use level 1 sections here. And remove extra spacing.
23:11:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logique]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40222&oldid=40218 * Oerjan * (+89) formatting
23:16:51 <myname> i wonder how many pages in the wiki starts with "... is an esoteric programming language"
23:17:14 <oerjan> a lot.
23:19:13 <Bicyclidine> is an esoteric programming language when preceded by its quotation
23:20:14 <myname> let's make stats
23:20:31 <myname> how many percent of pages
23:22:49 <myname> thinking about it, thaz sounds terrible
23:23:04 <myname> how would you say that?
23:23:13 <myname> "what percentage"?
23:23:24 <Bicyclidine> what fraction
23:23:40 <myname> that kinda makes sence
23:24:15 <myname> i'd think of a set rather than a number on this one, though
23:29:27 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
23:30:17 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ThdK <- crude approximation
23:30:56 <fizzie> (It looks at all revisions, so some appear several times, if the matching part has been edited.)
23:31:48 <fizzie> (Also an old XML dump I had around, since the mysqldump is harder to Perl-oneline for.)
23:33:00 <myname> that's less than expected
23:34:17 <fizzie> Oh, it's missing all pages that link [[esoteric programming language]]. Let's strip those.
23:35:44 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/fgHK that's quite a bit more
23:45:37 <oerjan> gah hit my laptop's go-to-sleep button by accident
23:46:03 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:47:21 <oerjan> why isn't IE offering to reopen my tabs :(
23:48:35 <oerjan> oh f it killed the touchpad driver, i have to actually let the reboot finish
23:50:00 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:51:07 <Sgeo> What's the best natural language to describe a new conlang in?
23:51:22 <elliott> no, Sgeo.
23:53:04 <Sgeo> elliott: takk
23:53:47 <Sgeo> (Apparently Google Translate can't translate thank you???)
23:53:52 <elliott> ( )
23:53:52 <idris-bot> (input):1:1: error: no implicit
23:53:52 <idris-bot> arguments allowed
23:53:52 <idris-bot> here, expected: ":",
23:53:52 <idris-bot> dependent type signature,
23:53:52 <idris-bot> end of input↵…
23:53:57 <elliott> thanks, idris-bot
23:54:11 <elliott> you ruined it
23:56:33 -!- TieSoul-mobile has changed nick to FLAK.
23:57:03 -!- FLAK has changed nick to TieSoul-mobile.
23:58:14 <TieSoul-mobile> Hey that was for another channel and unrelated to this
23:58:18 <TieSoul-mobile> Kbye
23:59:39 -!- TieSoul-mobile has quit (Quit: Bye).
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