00:00:32 Sgeo: the translation is correct we have no use for a pesky pronoun hth 00:01:52 -!- shikhout has joined. 00:02:39 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:03:01 he gave us flak, then left 00:04:50 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:12:03 -!- TieSoul-mobile has joined. 00:16:41 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:56:00 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:56:22 -!- MoALTz has joined. 00:57:08 so this will be officially the hottest registered july in trondheim and most of trøndelag ever. 00:58:53 beating the old 1901 records, or thereabouts 01:05:58 oerjan: how hot is that 01:06:23 today in palo alto: 37° 01:07:34 well the overall _average_ looks to be 19.0°, i assume that includes night 01:07:47 and the tops are somewhere in the 30-32 range 01:08:20 i believe 37° has never been measured in norway ever 01:11:19 don't worry 01:11:41 in about a billion years the average temperature on earth will be 47°, says wikipedia 01:14:04 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:15:54 -!- FreeFull has joined. 01:22:30 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:34:46 shachaf: you're in palo alto? 01:36:35 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:36:36 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 01:37:12 quintopia: At the moment I'm in Mountain View. 01:38:22 -!- MoALTz has joined. 01:38:38 shachaf: work? 01:39:09 No. 01:39:28 visiting? 01:41:08 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:44:08 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 01:54:31 37 degrees just a couple days ago here. :( 01:54:38 Looj quintopia 01:54:47 it's the next town over 01:54:56 do i need an excuse to be here 01:55:17 shachaf: oh i took your comment to mean "at the moment i'm in the bay area but normally i'm not in CA" 02:00:58 -!- edwardk has joined. 02:06:41 How can you make a square wave with adjustable period using external clock with a 74xx series IC? 02:07:54 @messages-loud 02:07:55 oerjan asked 1d 2h 57m 59s ago: You added [[Uncontrollable]] to the Joke Language List, but there is no such article. Do you have a link or description? 02:08:17 oerjan: I saw it mentioned in some Japanese documentation. 02:10:29 zzo38: just counting number of times clock pin goes high and flipping the output pin every n times isn't it? 02:10:35 -!- augur has joined. 02:11:52 quintopia: Yes that is what I want; which 74xx series to use? 02:13:54 iunno? there's too many. maybe 744059? 02:14:57 though that pulses. might need to add a latch after it 03:01:36 -!- not^v has joined. 03:04:08 -!- ^v has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:04:09 -!- not^v has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:05:50 -!- ^v has joined. 04:12:42 Re. the form feed stuff, it was probably made a binary good/bad test (instead of an undef) because form feeds change the resulting funge-space so much that it'd be practically impossible for Befunge programs to handle multiple different implementations of them 04:14:21 you could bootstrap something that rewrites fungespace to undo all the damage and then jump back? :p 04:16:53 But then form feeds would no longer make the code more difficult to write by messing up the X offset of the following line and the Y offsets of all the remaining lines :-P 04:19:37 Another reason might be that I've generally gone with the philosophy that if an instruction might either always reflect or do something even slightly more interesting, prefer the latter behaviour 04:20:09 For form feed those are pretty much the only two reasonable options 04:27:37 Deewiant: I think it should feed a form asking what it should do to the nearest available printer. 04:27:46 then you scan it back in and it does that. 04:28:00 if you're using the interpreter over a network it faxes it to you. 04:28:31 Deewiant: did mushspace ever happen? 04:32:29 It's in the slow process of happening 04:33:17 mushspace? 04:34:00 I have a 1988 paper on my desk that I need to understand and implement but I haven't taken the time to do so yet 04:34:10 it's 26 years old, it can wait a little longer 04:34:14 Anyhoo, got to go now --> 04:37:04 noooo come back 04:41:41 oerjan: You rang? 04:42:07 J_Arcane: am i correct that Violet is your creation? 04:42:13 Yes. 04:42:49 because as i mentioned on the talk page, there might be licensing problems between the github and the wiki if you weren't. 04:43:14 Ahh. 04:44:01 well all should be fine then. 04:44:54 [wiki] [[Talk:VIOLET]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40223&oldid=40207 * JArcane * (+118) 04:46:21 I debated putting a callout to the joke to make things clearer. 04:47:06 -!- TieSoul-mobile has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:47:14 (also, I really need to add the license to the docs pages if I'm going to be linking them directly) 04:49:12 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:28:45 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: restarting). 05:34:39 -!- Bike has joined. 05:49:03 Also 37.2 °C is the all-time record temperature in Finland (actually measured exactly four years ago today). 05:49:22 (And the all-time lowest is -51.5 °C in 1999.) 05:55:18 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: As long as those weren't on the same day). 05:55:44 "the not entirely possible case" 06:02:26 -!- shikhin has joined. 06:05:23 -!- shikhout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:25:42 @message Sgeo Figure out how list and continuation is actually working here http://www.valuedlessons.com/2008/01/monads-in-python-with-nice-syntax.html 06:25:42 Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages? 06:25:50 @tell Sgeo Figure out how list and continuation is actually working here http://www.valuedlessons.com/2008/01/monads-in-python-with-nice-syntax.html 06:25:50 You can tell yourself! 06:25:53 blah 06:28:06 -!- mhi^ has joined. 06:36:08 -!- fowl has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:37:55 -!- fowl has joined. 06:47:18 fizzie: I live there. Believe me when I say I did not expect this kind of heat when I moved to Finland ... 06:48:03 not *more* finns in here 06:48:27 You can't escape Finns on IRC, they invented the place. ;) 06:51:15 elliott: You should read _Impro: Improvisation and the Theatre_. 06:51:23 no 06:54:01 Yes, well. 07:20:01 Is there a particularly deep reason that multiplication having higher precedence than addition seems to be the most convenient order? Not just habit, I think, it's in other places: data A = Foo Int Int | Bar String String, same as Int * Int + String * String, and && tends to have higher precedence than || in various languages 07:20:39 It is convenient for mathematics, I think. 07:20:49 2a + 4b 07:22:01 While your example of "data A = Foo Int Int | Bar String String" shows one reason it can be convenient for mathematics (even though this includes no addition or multiplication, it still shows it by how you did). Things like "2a + 4b" of course show it too. 07:24:18 The Whetstone of Witte, whiche is the seconde parte of Arithmeteke: containing the extraction of rootes; the cossike practise, with the rule of equation; and the workes of Surde Nombers 07:26:13 Bike = Bicycle 07:26:22 whoa dude. 07:26:41 Or better yet, Bike ===== Bicycle 07:27:43 ??? 07:28:16 elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Whetstone_of_Witte 07:28:40 that -- yeah but -- 07:29:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenzizenzizenzic 07:29:55 he wrote that it "doeth represent the square of squares squaredly". 07:30:40 it's a nice title really 07:30:42 good metaphor 07:31:09 A Zenzizenzizenzizenzike or Square of Squares Squaredly Squared 07:31:23 not that 07:32:21 Sgeo: no particularly deep reason, it's just a stupid tradition we're trying to change since Iverson, but it's hard to change because our prophets K&R had given their blessing on it and they're influential 07:32:44 so eventually we just say that the C-like convention and the Iverson-like linear expressions are two different syntax 07:33:05 and we let people choose to their taste 07:33:17 multiplication having higher precedence than addition is pretty reasonable... 07:33:20 and depending on the particular purpose 07:33:23 if you accept any precedence at all 07:33:28 elliott: yes, of course 07:33:46 Considering that && = * and || = + I don't think the C ways are coincidence. Unless C violates my expectations 07:34:15 Sgeo: C does violate expectations in that & has lower precedence than ==, but it's a historical mistake we can't correct now 07:34:33 it would be worse to change it now, so we just deal with it and use extra parenthesis 07:35:15 the rest of the C precedence table is good of course 07:36:42 that's the precedence you want for & as a bitwise op 07:36:57 the mistake was them wanting to pun the bitwise ops in that way :p 07:37:58 hysterical mistakes do not die 07:38:15 so now if you want to avoid confusion (not always the case in esolangs), you make your syntax and precedence and associativity similar to either C or APL, thus helping people reading and writing code 07:39:03 (or to forth, that's the third choice I guess) 07:40:23 or lisp. 07:41:02 I turnip who I turnip, and I radish who I radish. I haven't potated a man unless I'd potatoed him. I have never been known to carrot a woman, unless she was carrotted by me. I beet who I beet, but most of all, I yam who I yam. 07:41:25 parenthesis: the great equalizer 07:41:34 newsham: I thought that was \sim 07:42:07 What does Ada's associativity for and and or count as? 07:42:19 (Parentheses required. Not really similar to C or APL or Forth afaik) 07:42:38 Sgeo: non-associative with respect to each other 07:42:48 Sgeo: dijkstrean. 07:43:35 what can be expected when you associate indiscriminantly 07:44:26 For example, C, python, javascript, SQL, Haskell, and even arithmetic in prolog use arithmetic notation similar to C. Forth and postscript use arithmetic notation similar to Forth. 07:45:06 Woah the SWI-Prolog site looks different 07:45:06 haskell has /= and `shiftL`... blasphemy! 07:45:26 Smalltalk is strange, its syntax precedence rules aren't similar to either APL or C. 07:45:35 newsham: so? prolog has \= and =< 07:45:50 also =\= 07:45:54 so how can you lump themin with C? 07:46:03 it's not really C-like but their precedence is still C-like 07:46:09 I thought APL precedence was right-to-left? Smalltalk is left-to-right for binary operators, so I'd call that similar 07:46:13 comparedtothe c/perl/javascript/java/python monoculture 07:46:14 Or am I assuming that APL is like J? 07:46:17 * then + then == then && 07:46:20 lump theremin 07:46:42 the real math question is, what branch cuts do you use 07:46:55 theres really not much diversity in computer languages 07:47:01 then again they've only been around for half a century 07:47:05 Sgeo: I'm not quite sure how smalltalk work, but I think it has named messages having higher precedence than symbol, similar to Haskell, or something 07:47:11 Sgeo: frankly, I don't know how it works 07:47:17 but I don't think it's like APL 07:47:52 I constrained my statement to binary operators. Named messages with one argument (self) have higher precedence. Messages with several have lowest precedence 07:48:08 Sgeo: smalltalk is one of those old languages like BASIC or MIX assembler that were invented before C and APL got very popular 07:48:13 (Ok, maybe my use of 'argument' is confusing) 07:48:31 eg. MIXAL has everything parenthisized right to left, the opposite way from APL 07:49:08 Sgeo: "Named messages with one argument have higher precedence. Messages with several have lowest precedence" ok 07:51:59 for the record, BASIC has precedence rules that are very similar to C but not quite the same: 07:52:48 in particular, in BASIC, - has a higher precedence than +, and / has a higher precedence than *, so X*Y/Z is parenthisized as X*(Y/Z) in BASIC, 07:53:28 whereas Pascal has less usual rules, with AND (bitwise operator) having the same precedence as * 07:53:48 both of these probably have these because they were invented before C got so popular 07:56:29 Sgeo: as for smalltalk, I think unary operators having a higher precedence than binary ones is enough to make me say that Smalltalk arithmetic syntax is not similar to APL 08:30:52 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 08:36:32 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:42:19 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 09:16:44 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 09:28:53 -!- edwardk has joined. 09:39:07 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 09:42:14 http://www.blitzortung.org/Webpages/index.php?lang=en&page_0=11 it's like a wall of thunder 09:51:41 guys. If the y instruction gets a value higher than the length of the stack, does it return 0 or the bottom value of the stack? 09:51:46 in befunge 09:59:46 I think most natural would be for it to pick a 0 if you ask it to pick something "under the bottom", so to say. 09:59:51 But that's just an opinion. 10:00:21 yeah I think so too 10:00:26 so it's undefined behaviour? 10:00:44 Based on the view that the empty-stack-pops-a-0 is conceptually as if there were an infinite amount of zeros on each stack. 10:00:57 Because I don't remember seeing it in the spec 10:02:01 It does not seem to be explicitly specified, no. 10:15:57 can I run befunge code within this chat? 10:16:17 -98 10:19:38 !befunge-98 a5.,@ 10:19:46 !befunge98 a5.,@ 10:19:48 5 10:20:37 Don't think you need the newline here, 10:25:18 and how do you run befunge code with multiple lines? 10:30:48 !befunge98 9876543210yf8+y2+y.@ 10:30:48 0 10:30:51 huh 10:31:10 oh wait 10:32:15 !befunge98 9876543210yf8+y2+02pn02gy.@ 10:32:16 0 10:32:19 oh wait 10:32:20 dammit 10:32:37 !befunge98 0yf8+y2+02pn98765432102gy.@ 10:32:38 8 10:32:55 well that was unexpected 10:35:45 I thought it'd output 2 10:38:34 So did I, in fact. 10:40:40 this is pretty bizarre 10:40:42 :P 10:40:51 why does it output 2 10:40:53 8 10:40:57 lol 10:41:59 !befunge98 0yf8+y2+02pn987654321 02gy. 02g1+y. 02g1-y. @ 10:41:59 8 7 9 10:42:07 my interpreter outputs 2 10:42:40 I don't think that's how it should behave 10:42:51 It seems to be the wrong way around, perhaps. 10:43:07 Since making the number larger makes it pick a value (7) closer to top. 10:45:01 so if it's larger than the size of y, it gives you the values from the bottom of the stack? 10:45:05 that's weird 10:46:27 !befunge98 3y :884**% \884**/:884**% \884**/:884**% \884**/ ,,,, @ 10:46:27 CFUN 10:46:46 !befunge98 4y.@ 10:46:46 90 10:50:12 It might even be a cfunge bug. 10:51:43 [if past the y-pushed stack:] stack_push(ip->stack, stack_get_index(ip->stack, request - sysinfo_tmp_stack->top)); (sysinfo.c:408) and stack_get_index *seems* to interpret 0 as the bottom of the stack, not the top. 10:53:56 @tell Vorpal Potential cfunge bug: http://sprunge.us/IWfZ -- if my quick glance at how the stack works was right, anyway. 10:53:57 Consider it noted. 10:55:23 I would've expected mycology to test using y for picking, however. 10:55:54 yes it does 10:56:05 so I guess that's how it's supposed to work? 11:00:42 I don't think so. I mean, it's supposed to count from the top. 11:01:31 Ah, I see. 11:01:40 Unfortunately, mycology's test is "symmetric". 11:01:48 ah 11:02:00 but that doesn't explain why it thinks that mine doesn't work 11:02:12 when mine says 2 with my code 11:02:18 it seems to work 11:03:51 @tell Vorpal It's not picked up by mycology because that tests whether n34500g2+y picks a "4", and that's right there in the middle, same index no matter which direction it's counted. 11:03:52 Consider it noted. 11:04:48 You could try the exact sequence that mycology does, though of course it might've gotten confused by something else. 11:05:58 how do I encrypt my 4 letters into a handprint? :P 11:06:07 That's ny0yaa 1++k$ 00p n34500g2+y and then it expects the stack to be [top] 4 5 4 3 [bottom]. 11:07:01 Morning 11:08:27 hrm 11:08:30 for some reason 11:08:40 it seems y puts [0 0] on the stack 11:08:44 before it picks 11:09:04 in my interpreter 11:09:21 so that the stack is [top] 4 0 0 5 4 3 [bottom] 11:09:57 okay I forgot to increment the count somewhere 11:10:06 -!- nooodl has joined. 11:10:24 I don't rightly know why mycology gets the offset for picking that complicatedly. 11:10:28 alright it works now 11:11:45 alright now everything in mycology works up to the shrinking bounds 11:13:13 so erm 11:13:38 after it says "GOOD: form feed does not appear to exist in Funge-Space" it gets stuck in an infinite loop 11:14:58 and I can't figure out why 11:16:51 Everything before that point's a GOOD. 11:17:10 Hm. Well, according to Vorpal, the next test is "GOOD: y reports shrunk bounds correctly after spacing top-left corner". 11:17:46 hrm 11:17:57 so something goes wrong in the loop that spaces the corner 11:19:54 !befunge98 "CFUN" 000p 101p 4> #; \ 01g*00g+00p 01g884***01p 1-:#;_ 00g. @ 11:19:55 1128682830 11:19:59 As for the fingerprint encoding, that's one way. 11:20:54 alright, I haven't decided on a name for my interpreter yet 11:21:25 !perl print unpack('N', 'CFUN'); # or just, you know 11:21:26 1128682830 11:22:08 I guess I have to decide on a name for my interpreter :P 11:22:42 I'll go with FWIP (Funge Work-In-Progress) for now :P 11:22:56 !perl print unpack('N', 'FWIP'); 11:22:56 1180125520 11:23:06 I guess if fungot ever gets a Funge-98 interpreter (not very likely), it's going to be FNGT. 11:23:06 fizzie: might need to modify the semantics of scheme, even from poor instructors. x_x. since you can define 11:29:08 -!- TieSoul has changed nick to BusySoul. 11:29:16 -!- BusySoul has changed nick to Tiesoul. 11:33:11 fungot: less is more 11:33:12 b_jonas: huh?!? that sounds bad. indeed, what about 11:33:14 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 11:33:15 fungot: war is peace 11:33:16 b_jonas: i think i wouldn't open anything official in a place where most of the textbooks were fairly standard ones. stewart for complex analysis. 11:33:20 fungot: freedom is slavery 11:33:20 b_jonas: i didn't finish the kipple interpreter, ork can create the function yourself. :p 11:34:30 kipple? 11:36:00 fungot: ignorance is strength 11:36:01 b_jonas: on another note, i've almost got it... thanx! :) fnord je? all those are operators. 11:37:52 I remember Kipple. 11:39:06 Didn't know fungot was making an interpreter. 11:39:07 fizzie: can't think of any situation where you did something like 11:39:37 fungot: Don't you be disparaging me, you piece of code. 11:39:37 fizzie: goal is assembly in sexps 11:42:44 -!- edwardk has joined. 11:44:14 ugh 11:44:23 I'm going to have to run Mycology in debug mode 11:44:28 this is going to take a while :P 11:44:32 -!- Tiesoul has changed nick to TieSoul. 11:45:34 fungot: do you prefer languages where the side effects of evaluation of multiple arguments to a function happen in an undefined order, such as C or scheme, or languages where they happen in a well-defined order? 11:45:35 b_jonas: c99 preprocesses the same way as brainfuck, ook, spoon... http://copocoto.sdf-eu.org/ pub/ scheme-repository/ fnord/ fnord 11:45:55 -!- Koen_ has joined. 11:47:31 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:56:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:57:49 okay I can't figure out why mycology puts my into an infinite loop 11:57:54 me* 12:02:04 -!- shikhout has joined. 12:05:02 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:25:36 -!- yorick has joined. 12:29:48 -!- edwardk has joined. 12:30:28 -!- edwardk has quit (Client Quit). 12:33:05 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: Soundcloud (Famitracker Chiptunes): http://www.soundcloud.com/patashu MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 12:48:22 -!- shikhout has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:08:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:11:40 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:14:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:18:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:18:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 14:18:52 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:27:07 -!- edwardk has joined. 14:34:24 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v. 14:39:28 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:39:40 -!- Frooxius has joined. 14:49:32 fizzie: seems like a mycology bug too 14:50:05 Well, it's not a bug, just a deficiency. 14:51:35 @tell Deewiant Mycology test for picking with y picks out the middle element of a three-element stack (4 out of 3,4,5), hence not noticing if the implementation mistakenly counts from the bottom of the stack instead of the top. 14:51:36 Consider it noted. 14:51:41 Let's note it anyhow. 14:52:32 D'oh 15:00:32 fizzie: Out of curiosity re. getting the offset complicatedly, is there a simple way? 15:01:44 fizzie: And feel free to select out of a) nickname in commit msg b) realname in commit msg c) both d) no attribution 15:03:18 hey Deewiant, I'm writing a Befunge-98 interpreter, and it gets into an infinite loop when Mycology tries to space the top-left corner for a test, and I can't figure out why. 15:04:24 (what I do know is that the interpreter does not shrink the bounds, but when I fix that it slows my interpreter down immensely.) 15:05:38 So your last GOOD output is still the form feed one? 15:06:18 yes. 15:06:42 everything before that is GOOD except one instance where y reports a wrong upper bound. 15:06:55 And presumably you don't know where you're infinite-looping? :-) 15:07:12 no. 15:07:25 I suspect it's when Mycology tries to space the corner/ 15:07:30 But I don't know for sure 15:08:07 That would put you somewhere in here I guess: 15:08:09 >' 0a-6738*+*p>5b*11p>11g::' \0a-p#v_v Clear area used for 15:08:11 v ;^ p11-1<;< 15:08:13 >1-:::+\pa-:11p22p>11g::' \22gp#v_a-11p22g:2+#v_$28*:1+y\y1+ 15:08:15 ^;# p11+1<; p22+1< 15:08:53 Yeah 15:09:33 Or the wraparound immediately after, if you report the correct least point 15:09:46 But I guess you don't so it's likely just one of those loops 15:10:20 y reports the least point p has been used on. 15:11:23 Then it's probably incorrect 15:11:29 Anyway, I'd suggest figuring out how far you get 15:12:12 Some simple hackery like if (x == 41 && y == 201) print("got out of first loop\n"); or whatever 15:12:26 And then narrow it down 15:13:20 well, it does not get out of the first loop 15:13:20 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 15:15:13 okay 15:15:19 it gets stuck inside the first loop 15:15:25 it goes in then doesn't come out 15:16:30 That loop is just a fairly simple countdown from 55, nothing too weird going on 15:17:16 I'd suspect something quite fundamental like the stack or funge-space getting messed up 15:17:49 Or then an unlucky bug in ' or \ or something, but I think all the instructions in that loop have been used so much at that point that it would've shown up earlier... 15:19:00 -!- MoALTz has joined. 15:19:16 or 15:19:18 wait 15:19:19 huh 15:19:34 it seems to get stuck before that 15:19:44 I tested the wrong coords. 15:20:29 Not much to get stuck on between the form feed message printer and that loop, a bug in ; perhaps? 15:20:46 might be 15:22:17 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 15:22:39 What language are you writing your interpreter in, btw 15:22:52 Python 15:23:05 I guess it's a bug in wrapping using ;. 15:24:22 hrm, but comments currently take up ticks in my implementation and move along just like normal. (it's not concurrent don't worry I'll fix that if it gets concurrent) 15:24:57 Darn, PyFunge was one of the "revived to beat Mycology" interpreters, so you won't be the first 15:26:14 well, I do everything in Python :P 15:26:19 basically 15:28:12 Nothing wrong with that, was just wondering whether it'd be a new language for the hall of fame or whatever 15:28:37 ah 15:29:37 damn, I really want to test the fingerprints I've implemented :P 15:30:27 You're not far off :-) 15:31:11 lemme see if it gets through if I delete the ;s 15:31:53 well, it doesn't get through 15:32:03 which means I tested the wrong coords again 15:32:39 You mentioned a debug mode (I assume it outputs a trace or something), maybe set it to turn on when y >= 200 or something? :-P 15:32:58 Yeah, I could do that 15:32:59 thanks 15:38:20 hrm 15:38:26 it's definitely a bug in the ; 15:38:31 or just wrapping 15:38:56 because it gets infini-looped in the tick after ; is executed 15:39:22 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:43:25 the IP seems to not advance despite the delta being positive, while in the ;. 15:43:40 I got this by making spaces take up a tick inside ;s 15:44:13 but that makes no sense 15:44:49 the loop says "x,y = move(x, y)" so every tick it should move irrelevant of if it's in a comment. 15:49:55 It's definitely a wrapping bug 15:56:09 If I try making another file consisting of: 15:56:11 v 15:56:18 . v 15:56:30 ;v; >; 15:56:35 but aligned 15:56:51 it does not give me that wrapping error 15:57:14 You might need to write something to negative space first 15:58:17 adding 01-1p to the beginning still doesn't give me the error 15:58:36 Then it's not that simple :-P 16:00:15 has anyone tried the unrolling type trick for common deltas like fizzie's -93 interpreter had? 16:01:04 Which trick was that? 16:03:32 adding a form feed to the line with comments doesn't work either 16:04:13 Deewiant: https://gist.github.com/fis/6898996 has it, I think 16:04:34 the "insts" macro, e.g. 16:05:26 TieSoul: I suggest either debugging Mycology as-is, or copying Mycology up to the failing point and removing needless lines until it's small enough to debug 16:05:38 (And still exhibits the problem) 16:07:53 elliott: So complete copies of the code for different deltas? Hasn't been done in -98 afaik. (The resulting binary size, think of the floppies!) 16:08:19 Deewiant: right, something like that. it seems like you could eliminate a lot of indirection and branches for the common case. 16:08:36 maybe you could even do something like just preloading N instructions along a delta, and then executing them as a linear program, bailing if the delta changes 16:08:50 I don't know if that'd help much. 16:09:05 Depending on the funge-space implementation it might 16:09:19 preload N instructions as things to computed-goto to :) 16:09:25 (and bail if instructions get rebound or delta changed or whatever) 16:09:29 copying four lines surrounding the one that wraps using ; doesn't exhibit the problem 16:09:52 I forget, fungespace stores 32-bit values usually right? 16:09:53 or is it 8-bit 16:10:00 undefined. 16:10:02 elliott: -93 is 8-bit I think 16:10:06 I mean -98. 16:10:34 in -98 it can be anything according to spec 16:10:41 I always kinda wondered what it'd be like if you stored cells that are valid instructions as computed-goto pointers. 16:10:58 and then used invalid pointers for other cells. 16:11:14 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:11:21 or even not invalid pointers, just have N copies of reflect :) 16:11:24 you'd only save one switch/case I suppose. 16:11:38 I guess that's kind of pointless because it doesn't optimise where it actually matters (e.g., fungespace) 16:11:41 for example, my implementation features arbitrary-sized cells (called 'inf'-sized cells by y) 16:12:00 -!- heroux has joined. 16:12:24 TieSoul: right, I just checked the spec. I just meant that it's not like 32-bit stack, 8-bit fungespace 16:12:31 (I've implemented -98) 16:12:44 arbitrary-sized cells are still illegal I think :) 16:13:07 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:13:18 "1 cell containing the number of bytes per cell (global env). aka cell size. Typically 4, could also be 2, 8, really really large, infinity, etc." 16:13:27 yeah, but you can't push infinity to the stack. 16:13:51 in python: push(float('inf')) 16:13:55 or if you can, then your cells are no longer "signed integers" and so you break the spec. 16:13:57 That thinko's been fixed in later revisions 16:14:10 wait, -98 got revisions? 16:14:34 https://github.com/catseye/Funge-98/blob/master/doc/funge98.markdown I guess this is the canonical spec 16:14:46 1 cell containing the number of bytes per cell (global env). 16:14:54 okay, yeah. so I just don't believe arbitrary-sized cells are legal 16:15:14 It might have been just a simplification in Chris's head when he did the Markdown conversion 16:15:40 the github commits say it's the "2004 revision" 16:15:54 so I suspect the version on quadium.net is just from 1998 16:16:11 If you look at the git log it starts from an HTML import which still says the "really really large, infinity" stuff and then it just gets removed in the Markdown conversion process 16:16:15 oh :/ the html version has it, yeah 16:16:25 I think we actually asked chris about this though? 16:16:35 Maybe, can't remember 16:17:25 TieSoul: I assume you just push -1? 16:17:37 if you're actually pushing a float then that's terrifyingly against-spec 16:17:39 elliott: Like he said he pushes inf 16:17:45 that's not an integer. :/ 16:17:55 the spec is very clear about cells being integers. :p 16:18:13 Python's inf is kind of an edge case imo :S 16:18:15 can you massage inf into some other float or do otherwise-wacky stuff given one on the stack? 16:18:16 Maybe Mycology should check that it's a sensible value by dividing it by itself and aborting if the result is not 1 :-P 16:18:26 TieSoul: it's just an IEEE floating point value... 16:18:31 oh 16:18:34 well then it isn't 16:18:39 >>> type(float('inf')) 16:18:39 16:18:46 I'll push -1 then 16:18:59 now, if you made the whole stack floats, that would be exciting. 16:19:02 and very illegal. 16:19:47 Wasn't there an interpreter in a float-only language, I forget 16:21:56 probably someone has done JS. 16:22:02 albeit likely very noncompliantly. 16:22:21