00:00:47 <zzo38> Although maybe there is better way?
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00:13:11 <boily> hi all! I am in a panicking state! I'm trying to make windows boot!
00:13:26 <ion> Sorry to hear that.
00:14:03 <boily> I may have creatively destroyed the EFI on a friend's machine.
00:14:14 <boily> (in some very dubious and artistics maneuvers...)
00:18:39 <oerjan> i'm sure they were also EFIcient
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00:23:59 <boily> oerjan: you deserve a thorough mapole, you fiend.
00:25:07 <boily> the automated repair didn't work, rebuilding the BCD didn't work, on to the nuclear option.
00:25:43 <oerjan> i'll check if blitzortung picks it up
00:28:23 <oerjan> no lightning that far east in canada, it seems
00:29:07 <oerjan> http://www.blitzortung.org/Webpages/index.php?lang=en&page_0=30 hth
00:33:53 <boily> meanwhile, the EFI mystery persists. everything seems to be in the right place, I can select bootmgfw.efi from either grub or refind, but every time the machine just beeps and reboot.
00:34:01 <oerjan> oh, and don't forget to select the "detectors" button
00:37:07 <boily> it shines with lines.
00:45:49 <oerjan> @ask Deewiant <Deewiant> elliott: So complete copies of the code for different deltas? Hasn't been done in -98 afaik. (The resulting binary size, think of the floppies!) <-- isn't that what fizzie's jit did? although i don't recall him ever finishing it.
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00:56:29 <oerjan> the forecast lightning here doesn't seem to be materializing.
00:58:24 <boily> so the windows disc now suddenly refuses to repair windows for no apparent reason. screw me.
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01:48:40 <boily> oh well. I went the lazy way, and just installed that **** de câlisse de bâtard de **** in virtualbox.
01:48:50 <boily> time to go home. I need sleep.
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03:14:06 <zzo38> I found that someone has figured out how to do open source bitstream generation for FPGA without needing to figure out the bitstream format; it is done by making a bunch of small bitstreams for each primitive and then putting them together. http://www.isi.edu/~nsteiner/publications/soni-2013-bitstream-fccm13.pdf
03:15:16 <Bike> Really sad that that had to be done, though.
03:15:44 <newsham> "i'm living in a proprietary world and i am a proprietary girl"
03:15:49 <newsham> isnt that how the song goes?
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03:27:28 <zzo38> You could possibly do it even further, by making sets of microbitstreams that have corresponding sets for different FPGA models (including different vendors), and then store them in a ROM chip, and then you can program a FPGA without ever even touching the bitstreams at all!
03:29:20 <oerjan> that went a lot faster than the first 1000
03:32:39 <newsham> zzo: might have a big efficiency cost
03:33:11 <newsham> ie. if fpga blocks can do function of 6 inputs, and you end up only using functions of 2 inputs as your building block
03:36:06 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa, you're practically ahead of me
03:37:13 <shachaf> if you guess what people are asking for when they're unclear without pointing it out they'll just keep being unclear :'(
03:37:18 <zzo38> newsham: Yes, if you want maximum compatibility, but you could have a "microbitstream archive" which contains the bitstreams and rule files to combine them and the capability files, and then if you are tuning the compilation to specific systems you can use those otherwise you could only use a portable set, I think.
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03:38:37 <oerjan> shachaf: wait are you referring to any of my answers here
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03:39:01 <shachaf> that would be kind of rude though
03:39:42 <oerjan> i _do_ remember that there were a number of occasions when i got the right answer long after everyone else had misinterpreted the question.
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03:40:19 <oerjan> in fact, since i don't visit SO _all_ the time, that's probably how i get most of the ones i get
03:41:49 <oerjan> sometimes i just remember something slightly obscure
03:46:26 <oerjan> (my _last_ answer was of course something trivial which just popped up and i couldn't resist because it would put me over 2000)
03:50:13 <zzo38> Maybe it would help though, if they can make up a single chip which can be compatible with the format of this: http://blog.notdot.net/2012/10/Build-your-own-FPGA
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05:26:46 <Vorpal> <lambdabot> fizzie said 7h 19m 18s ago: Yes, and it should output "2 3 1". (The K cells "conceptually" pushed by y are on top of the existing contents of the stack, so if the argument to y is K+N, the picked cell should be the N'th counting from the top, not bottom.) <-- fair enough, should be an easy enough fix, but I *probably* won't have time until the weekend. Have you told Deewiant about it? He mig
05:26:46 <Vorpal> ht want to improve the test in mycology.
05:27:43 <Vorpal> Oh and, this means nobody is using y for pick very much I think. Otherwise this would have been found way sooner
05:32:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, also is it still Gregor that runs HackEgo?
05:33:53 <Vorpal> Right, EgoBot's cfunge version will need updating after this is fixed
05:33:58 <Vorpal> anyway, bbl now, really
05:36:15 <Sgeo> What's wrong with Befunge? Spec issue, issue in popular implementations?
05:41:15 <oerjan> issue in cfunge, which mycology's test accidentally doesn't catch
05:42:24 <oerjan> (y numbering stack elements in reverse order)
05:42:43 <oerjan> and it doesn't catch it because the test picks the middle element of the stack
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05:52:32 <fizzie> I think using y for picking is kinda-sorta considered cheating by some.
05:54:36 <fizzie> Not to mention that it might be quite slow in unoptimilized implementations.
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06:34:19 <Deewiant> @tell oerjan Possibly, I don't remember; fizzie would know. (But then, as you said, it was never finished, so the floppies still live.)
06:48:23 <fizzie> Oh, the delta thing. No, jitfunge didn't do that; only the different iterations of ff, a '93 interpreter.
06:49:30 <fizzie> jitfunge was a tracing jit (interpret, but also collect instruction traces while executing; then when re-encountered, compile traces with constant-propagation and such), which I consider to be a p. natural way of JITting Funge-98.
06:52:27 <fizzie> It can't compile across "computed goto" kind of dynamic things (j or x with non-constant arguments and the like), but those are (a) rare and (b) can be considered to separate "basic blocks" that you can compile to native code and then connect with conditional jumps.
06:55:54 <fizzie> There's also quite a lot of not-so-hard-but-tedious bookkeeping to figure out everything that needs to be invalidated when a 'p' is executed, at least if you want to try doing it somewhat optimally. Things like tracking which traces go across which playfield cells, and treating ;;-jumps (only a p of ';' matters) and stringmode (can be fixed by modifying the pushed constant) differently. And ...
06:56:00 <fizzie> ... tracking which wrapping traces would hit the new cell if boundaries are extended.
06:56:44 <fizzie> @tell oerjan NO (but see logs for details)
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07:40:03 <TieSoul> Hey guys, can anyone on Linux (who has Python) check if this works right on Linux? https://github.com/TieSoul/Multilang
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07:41:52 <TieSoul> did my message just now arrive in chat?
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07:42:37 <TieSoul> Yeah I asked because I was force-quitted
07:43:26 <TieSoul> it's a shell, and I'm most concerned with the directory stuff and file execution.
07:43:37 <TieSoul> I don't know if it works cross-platform
07:43:45 <quintopia> if i get it running, tell me commands to test
07:44:05 <TieSoul> if you have any files to test on
07:44:55 <TieSoul> do you have any brainfuck/befunge files to test on?
07:45:13 <quintopia> also can you call dir ls instead (at least alias it)
07:47:29 <TieSoul> can you just make a file containing "!dlroW olleH"bk,@ ?
07:47:39 <TieSoul> and save it as something.b98?
07:47:46 <TieSoul> then you could test with that
07:51:12 <quintopia> having nets issues on linux box hold please
07:53:46 <TieSoul> run Multilang.py when you're done cloning
08:22:23 <fizzie> Works -- http://sprunge.us/iVBQ -- for me.
08:22:52 <fizzie> First time I see a "Pascal string" in a Funge-98 hello-world, also.
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08:25:05 <fizzie> "gnirts"6 as opposed to 0"gnirts".
08:25:15 <fizzie> 0a"!dlroW olleH">:#,_@ is the conventional one.
08:26:04 <fizzie> (Though I always write 25* in place of a due to Befunge-93 roots.)
08:35:35 <fizzie> 55+ gets some use, too.
08:35:46 <fizzie> I don't know why I got stuck with 25*, but here we are.
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08:43:24 <fizzie> From the department's mailing list, in a note about someone's Master's thesis presentation: "-- our meeting room has AIR CONDITIONING --"
08:43:33 <fizzie> I guess that's one way to ensure an audience.
08:44:39 <fizzie> (This building in general doesn't do AC, it being considered a bit of a luxury in Finland when it was built, since it's so seldom needed here.)
08:45:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: does the note also mention free food or drinks?
08:53:28 <fizzie> No, since we don't tend to do those at thesis presentations. If it did, they'd probably run out of space in the meeting room.
09:06:56 <b_jonas> ah yes, and then you'd have to overflow to non-air-conditioned rooms
09:13:22 <fizzie> These last few days, it has been generally 28..29°C in this office.
09:43:10 <mroman> I like "our meeting room has a heater"
09:43:27 <mroman> soom big old lecture rooms get really cold in winter
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09:47:38 <fizzie> Around these parts, we know about heating but not about cooling.
10:09:43 <TieSoul> I'm implementing Whirl. Does Whirl use integers or floats?
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10:48:52 <fizzie> The reference implementation (in C++) has a memory made out of 'int's. I guess that's the thing to follow.
10:50:17 <TieSoul> I'm asking because the flash interpreter uses floats
10:50:46 <TieSoul> and I was too lazy to check the other implementations
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13:45:47 <mroman> Somebody wrote an interpreter with flash
13:46:17 <mroman> I presume Flash is a platform and the language behind it is afaik this ActionScript
13:48:59 <fizzie> As far as I know, yes, but arguably you could still call something that depends on the platform's features to be written "in Flash".
14:11:41 <TieSoul> I want to implement another esolang. Any suggestions? :P
14:17:22 <TieSoul> I like multi-dimensional languages
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15:00:54 <TieSoul> k, finished SNUSP (modular)
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15:19:23 <TieSoul> I use Python for everything
15:20:41 <KingOfKarlsruhe> 5 years ago I made a BF2Text, oklopol battled me and his implementation was awesome, also writtein in python
15:20:42 <TieSoul> check out https://github.com/TieSoul/Multilang. It's a shell for all languages I've written implementations of.
15:23:51 <KingOfKarlsruhe> TieSoul: I've made a Chip8 Interpreter, but its in java -.-, maybe you could recycle it
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15:47:41 <KingOfKarlsruhe> TieSoul: is this python 3? It doesn't work with python 2.7.3
15:50:17 <mhi^> Yup, it is. print(chr(s[i]), end="")
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16:23:07 <Vorpal> @tell fizzie Just pushed a fix for that cfunge issue.
16:24:00 <Vorpal> @tell Gregor You might want to update to latest cfunge trunk in EgoBot for the Befunge98 command. I fixed a bug with using y as pick counting incorrectly.
16:24:48 <Vorpal> TieSoul, Latest cfunge should now work correctly for y
16:25:30 <Vorpal> I should seriously move from launchpad to bitbucket or something at some point
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16:40:26 <FreeFull> Rustyfunge better, because fungus
16:44:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I wondered about that, why Iron* for C#
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17:06:15 <ais523_> OK, so the saga of "get a working copy of Visual Studio on a non-Internet connected system" continues
17:06:42 <ais523_> I tried installing Visual Studio Express 2012 (rather than 2013), which I have successfully done before via doing the registration on another computer
17:07:10 <ais523_> this started out fine, but the form you have to fill in to register it is not working, in the sense that the Continue button does nothing
17:07:34 <ais523_> with no indication of any required fields missing
17:07:55 <ais523_> in case it was a client-side scripting error, I edited the JS so that it would submit the form without validation, but the same page just reloads, again with no indication of anything I'd done wrong
17:08:44 <ais523_> I am now going to try 2010, because VS2012 Express didn't appear in the list of topics that Microsoft offer support with (maybe it's been discontinued?), but VS2010 Express did
17:10:07 <mroman> Aren't there CD-Versions of it available?
17:10:12 <ais523_> "Did you mean microsoft visual studio express 2020?"
17:10:15 <ais523_> mroman: I'm using the CD versions
17:10:24 <ais523_> they nonetheless require registration over the Internet
17:10:36 <ais523_> even though Microsoft specifically say that registration is optional, apparently Visual Studio doesn't follow the same rules
17:11:37 <ais523_> searching Microsoft's search engine for VS2010 failed, but DuckDuckGo found within one link of the appropriate page
17:11:41 <ais523_> let's see what happens here
17:13:01 <ais523_> Microsoft don't even give a sensible method of reporting that their website is broken
17:13:26 <ais523_> anyway, VS2010 is advertised as using the same registration method as VS2012, so in theory it should work unless the website is broken in the same way for both products
17:13:33 <ais523_> also, fewer allcaps in the menu, which has to help
17:13:40 <mroman> Yeah, looks like it prompts for registration even if you download the offline version
17:13:52 <ais523_> it says that before you download
17:14:04 <ais523_> so it's not malicious or misleading, just stupid
17:14:17 <ais523_> Microsoft must really want that marketing data
17:16:32 <ais523_> maybe Microsoft discontinued support for VS 2012 Express because they thought nobody was using it because they got no new registrations
17:17:05 <ais523_> also, that broken button (which must be broken for everyone, seeing as the mistake seems to be server-side) affects not just my unusual setup, but the most common setup for VS2012 Express
17:18:58 <Vorpal> ais523_, I use 2010 Ultimate from MSDNAA. Can't you get something like that too? I thought you worked at a university even
17:19:16 <ais523_> yeah but I won't necessarily be here forever
17:19:24 <Vorpal> ais523_, those licenses don't expire
17:19:36 <ais523_> I think they have limitations for academic use only, though, or whatever
17:19:36 <Vorpal> There are some non-commercial clauses and such but that is it
17:19:48 <Vorpal> ais523_, non-commercial. But I thought Express had that too?
17:20:04 <ais523_> Express actually has a business option although it's meant to be for evaluation only
17:20:19 <ais523_> if the limitation really is "noncommercial" only, that's possibly good enough for me
17:20:31 <ais523_> but really I prefer to do things in a way that other people can reproduce
17:20:33 <Vorpal> ais523_, pretty sure that is the case
17:20:47 <Vorpal> ais523_, anyway, even if it wasn't, who would ever know?
17:21:14 <ais523_> Vorpal: this is not the approach I have towards the law
17:21:48 <Vorpal> ais523_, It seems like a minor detail though in this case. I'm not suggesting using that as an argument for murder!
17:22:01 <Vorpal> Err argument is wrong English word
17:22:56 <ais523_> although, in general, I have a policy that companies that put ridiculous restrictions on their customers should have to live with the effects of their own policies
17:23:04 <ais523_> or, well, licenses generally
17:23:58 <Vorpal> ais523_, What would you think about a static analysis tool evaluation version that limited the number of results you opened by double clicking on the result (or right clicking and selecting goto). But listed file and line number in the result
17:24:17 <Vorpal> Would you just continue using it and opening the file manually?
17:24:37 <ais523_> that sounds like a reduced-feature version of software
17:24:39 <Vorpal> ais523_, This is not a theoretical question btw, there really is such a piece of software
17:24:50 <ais523_> if it was clear that the developer was happy with people using the reduced-feature version indefinitely, I'd be fine with it
17:24:59 <Vorpal> ais523_, if it wasn't clear?
17:25:05 <ais523_> then I'd probably avoid it
17:25:30 <ais523_> that said, I prefer to avoid closed-source software generally because it is so hard to fix bugs in it
17:26:08 <ais523_> (the thing that immediately started all this off was "open-source software which I want to fix a bug in but it only compiles in Visual Studio", but that's a distant goal now; I'm just trying to get Visual Studio installed at all, mostly to see if I can get aimake to work with it)
17:26:14 <Vorpal> ais523_, I fixed a bug in a compiled binary today though
17:26:52 <Vorpal> ais523_, via hte, (debian package ht) which is somewhat smart hex editing, showing the disassembly live while editing and such
17:26:59 <Vorpal> (and tracing jumps and what not)
17:27:18 <Vorpal> ais523_, it was looking for kernel major = 2 && minor > some-number-I-forgot
17:27:40 <Vorpal> So I adjusted the jump to basically kill the check
17:28:07 <ais523_> this is apparently why Windows 7 gives its version number as 6.1 if requested via the version number API
17:28:14 <ais523_> so that programs checking for major = 6 don't break
17:28:24 <Vorpal> ais523_, also setarch --uname-2.6 didn't work, since it read /proc/sys/kernel/osrelease
17:28:34 <ais523_> because 7 is pretty similar to Vista (6.0) bfrom a developer's point of view
17:29:18 <elliott> major/minor numbers for ABI type things are just a mistake.
17:29:24 <ais523_> anyway, I dislike Visual Studio for being excessively complicated, among other things
17:29:34 <Vorpal> ais523_, the tool is part of Intel Parallel Studio's tool to inject static analysis by wrapping your build system and recording compiled files
17:29:42 <Vorpal> You thought intel would get it right...
17:30:23 <Vorpal> ais523_, When intellisense works properly it is pretty nice
17:30:29 <Vorpal> doesn't work well for C++ at all though
17:30:36 <ais523_> that's not really what I was talking about
17:30:49 <ais523_> I'm fine with that sort of feature existing, and it is very helpful for Java and C#
17:31:00 <ais523_> I was thinking more of the build system interface
17:31:03 <Vorpal> ais523_, we use Visual Studio at work, but we disabled intelisense and use a separate third party add-on for better intelisense
17:31:14 <Vorpal> InteliSense for non-.NET just sucks
17:31:30 <Vorpal> At least in the older version of VS that we have
17:32:05 <Vorpal> ais523_, oh god the property sheet hell indeed
17:32:19 <Vorpal> ais523_, we are moving to a cmake-based system at work to get rid of that
17:32:35 <Vorpal> (also in the longer term we are moving to linux as well)
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17:35:01 <ais523_> anyway, another thing I'd be happy with would be to download a time-unlimited copy of the command-line compiler
17:35:07 <ais523_> and just use msbuild or aimake or something as glue
17:35:19 <ais523_> but Microsoft doesn't support that any more either, they made it part of Visual Studio
17:38:28 <maurer> Vorpal: what static analysis tool is this?
17:38:57 <Vorpal> maurer, the one that had that evaluation thing?
17:39:24 <Vorpal> maurer, a Windows-only tool that integrates with Visual Studio called "PVS Studio". It is okay.
17:39:35 <ais523_> oh, I've heard of that, but don't know what it does
17:39:39 <maurer> Not a binary static analysis thing
17:39:42 * maurer goes back to his corner
17:40:33 <Vorpal> Not too many false positives in my experience. Lint is pretty useless for example unless you use it from the get-go
17:41:32 <ais523_> splint is worse, because AFAICT it's too buggy to be useful
17:41:54 <ais523_> I found very minor, meaning-preserving changes to programs which would completely change its output
17:49:55 <Vorpal> ais523_, yes splint is useless
17:50:06 <Vorpal> ais523_, the clang static analysis is pretty nice too, but rather limited
17:50:14 <Vorpal> Getting better every version though
17:50:23 <ais523_> I've wanted a "splint done properly" for a while, but then Mozilla went and invented Rust
17:50:44 <ais523_> which looks pretty close to that, except better in every respect except it isn't a subset of C (which is only arguably an advantage)
17:51:23 <Vorpal> ais523_, Try clang static analysis, it can find rather complex control flows leading to an error. I have seen it detect an error that happens after 30 steps of control flow
17:52:07 <ais523_> I haven't tried it myself, but apparently another NH4 developer runs it every now and again
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17:54:20 <Vorpal> ais523_, The intel one is nice too. When it doesn't check the kernel version that is ;P
17:54:58 <ais523_> hmm, so apparently attempting to use system restore to uninstall Visual Studio (because installing versions of software out-of-order tends to cause DLL problems), it now won't boot; the loading screen finishes, then there's a black screen rather than the login screen which doesn't respond to input and has no mouse cursor
17:55:46 * ais523_ force-reboots twice to get the repair screen to come up
17:56:38 <ais523_> "There was a problem with refreshing your PC. No changes were made."
17:56:49 <Vorpal> ais523_, so uninstall didn't work?
17:57:26 <ais523_> I'll try another System Restore to an earlier restore point
17:59:33 <Vorpal> ais523_, do you have a proper backup?
17:59:39 <Vorpal> That would likely work better
18:00:03 <ais523_> of all my files as of recently, yes; for Windows itself, there's just the recovery partition
18:00:07 <ais523_> but I fear it might uninstall Linux
18:00:16 <ais523_> I don't keep files I care about on the Windows side
18:00:37 <Vorpal> ais523_, I meant like a disk image to overwrite windows with
18:14:57 <ais523_> hmm, well the system restore just got stuck on "Initialising..."
18:16:39 <ais523_> anyone know what the Windows Event Viewer is called from the command line? I got to a working command line
18:18:20 <ais523_> hmm, I have two drives, X: and C:
18:18:28 <ais523_> which seem similar but not identical
18:18:53 <ais523_> e.g. if I try to load files from C:, it sometimes looks in X: and then says they aren't there
18:18:59 <ais523_> this is a /very/ good argument for text-based log formats
18:19:53 <ais523_> hmm, X: seems reminiscent of an initramfs or the like
18:20:06 <ais523_> it has the directory structure I'd expect for C:, but a different set of programs and no user data
18:21:56 * ais523_ attempts a "System Restore Undo"
18:22:12 <ais523_> this seems slightly more promising, in that it shows no signs of having got stuck yet
18:23:29 -!- int-e_ has changed nick to int-e.
18:29:32 <ais523_> "System Restore failed while restoring the registry from the restore point. An unspecified error occurred during System Restore. (0x80070002)
18:41:07 <ais523_> ended up making Windows unbootable trying to get a working Visual Studio
18:41:23 <ais523_> my guess is a corrupted registry
18:41:29 <ais523_> although it's only a very wild guess
18:46:11 <ais523_> I was ambivalent towards the registry but now I am close to certain that it's a bad idea
18:48:08 <ais523_> what is the minimum number of files in /etc for which a standard Linux distribution (Ubuntu, etc.) can boot with full functionality?
18:49:42 <ais523_> a typical user would assume that it was merely an uncustomized / weirdly-configured system, rather than a cut-down system
18:51:55 <ais523_> Start-up Repair couldn't repair your PC
18:52:11 <ais523_> Press "Advanced options" to try other options to repair your PC, or "Shut down" to turn off your PC.
18:52:24 <ais523_> Log file: C:\Windows\System32\Logfiles\Srt\SrtTrail.txt
18:52:33 <ais523_> yay, I now have a log file that might give a clue about what the problem is
18:54:03 <ais523_> "Root cause found: Unspecified changes to system configuration might have caused the problem."
18:54:43 <ais523_> and it tried to fix it via "", "System Restore", and "System files integrity check and repair", which failed with error codes 0x32, 0x1f, and 0x490 respectively.
18:56:58 <ais523_> I guess a backup/reinstall may be a worthwhile thing to try
18:59:08 <b_jonas> ais523_: I wanted to ask something
18:59:27 <ais523_> no backup/reinstall for me now, anyway, because I don't have backup media handy
18:59:55 <b_jonas> I borrowed a book on formal languages but it's not on the topic I need
19:00:31 <b_jonas> I need a book that tells more about parsers for context-free languages, like LR parsers and modified variants of it
19:00:49 <b_jonas> Someone on this channel had recommended Alfred V. Aho,
19:00:58 <b_jonas> Jeffrey D. Ullman., "The theory of parsing, translation, and compiling"
19:01:18 <b_jonas> which I haven't borrowed yet because it's summer and libraries are mostly closed, but I will probablytry
19:01:32 <b_jonas> but you might be able to recommend something too
19:03:43 <ais523_> b_jonas: I learned it from a book by Bornat called something like "understanding and writing compilers", but I can't remember the exact name
19:03:50 <ais523_> it was quite a good book, if very old
19:04:42 <b_jonas> (for the record, other possible books suggested were Alfred Vaino Aho et al, "Compilers, principles, techniques, and tools"; and Charles N. Fisher, Richard J. LeBlanc, Jr., "Crafting a compiler with C")
19:05:07 <b_jonas> ais523_: Bornat... let me search that
19:05:25 <int-e> http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/staffpages/r_bornat/ has a pdf
19:06:09 <ais523_> int-e: claims to, but it appears to be a broken link
19:06:34 <ais523_> it's a section link to a section that's so near the bottom of the page that no scroll is involved
19:07:19 <b_jonas> ais523_: seems to work for me
19:07:32 <ais523_> although the paper version was better formatted than the PDF, I doubt b_jonas will care about that that much
19:08:21 <b_jonas> ais523_: I do care about the formatting, but I'll still look at the pdf first to tell if this is the book I need, and will likely read it if the paper book is not available
19:17:05 <b_jonas> I thought for a minute the book was available in a library, but no, it's a completely different maths book by the same author
19:22:16 <b_jonas> I'll try to read some of this pdf later when I'm less tired. It seems terse but useful.
19:22:22 <b_jonas> ais523_ and int-e: thanks for the hint
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19:58:33 <vifino> isnt there a bot that allows shell execution?
19:59:32 <Bike> oh, it's not here.
19:59:50 <vifino> I wonder how that worked
20:00:28 <Bike> user-mode linux.
20:01:24 <ais523_> that comment is more fun if you interpret it as referring to unified modelling language
20:02:25 <Bike> how about: the communist party of nepal
20:07:55 -!- HackEgo has joined.
20:08:12 <fizzie> Again with the not rejoining automatically.
20:09:38 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
20:14:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sauce: not found
20:14:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: source: not found
20:17:45 <fizzie> See https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot
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20:45:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40225&oldid=40162 * GermanyBoy * (-2) /* (categories) */ unimplemented ➡ implemented
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21:12:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Nucular * uploaded "[[File:Nyan.png]]"
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21:16:52 <elliott> are pop tarts in the public domain
21:19:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40227&oldid=39219 * Nucular * (+313) New program: Nyan Cat
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22:13:32 <lambdabot> Deewiant said 15h 39m 13s ago: Possibly, I don't remember; fizzie would know. (But then, as you said, it was never finished, so the floppies still live.)
22:13:32 <lambdabot> fizzie said 15h 16m 47s ago: NO (but see logs for details)
22:17:49 -!- not^v has joined.
22:17:49 <HackEgo> imp9: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:18:53 <imp9> ok i apparently entered the wrong room
22:18:59 <imp9> im a newbie to the max
22:19:05 -!- not^v has changed nick to ^4.
22:19:19 <imp9> but while I'm here may I bother some of you guys with some pretty asinine questions regarding programming
22:19:47 <oerjan> oh _that_ you're in the right channel for. well if the questions are crazy enough.
22:20:04 <elliott> you are unusual in that you have decided to shift gears to programming rather than leaving, though :P
22:20:23 <imp9> well i am a computer technician by education but my education is prepostrous and lately i've realized how much lacking I am in IT department
22:20:25 <oerjan> well he didn't say which channel he _meant_ to join
22:20:35 <elliott> "oh, sorry, this isn't ##php"
22:20:46 <imp9> years of switching from IT to graphic design brought me to a place where I don't know what github even is
22:20:58 <imp9> can I fire couple questions, please?
22:21:04 <oerjan> it's a hub for gits, of course
22:21:19 <imp9> seriously fellas
22:21:32 <imp9> i'll start with the asinine question #1
22:22:10 <elliott> sure. let's hope that the non-fellas in the channel aren't the ones who have the answers you sek
22:22:40 <imp9> I don't know any programming, apart from some basic level CSS...if you can call that "programming".....so I need to start from the ground up. my question is - how the hell people know how to program
22:22:47 <imp9> how do they know how to talk to computer
22:23:08 <imp9> for example Quake is my favorite game (peep my nick) and I've saw a Carmack documentary yesterday
22:23:20 <imp9> how the fuck does Carmack know how to WRITE a damn engine from scratch?
22:23:36 <imp9> how do you write...a game engine from notepad.txt (figuratively speaking)
22:23:43 <int-e> by having done it multiple times before, in his case
22:23:43 <imp9> I can't wrap my mind aroudn that.
22:24:14 <int-e> few people can. it's too big, start smaller. much smaller.
22:24:15 <elliott> by writing a bunch of calls to the operating system's graphics APIs and a bunch of math for the 3D computations.
22:24:39 <imp9> does that imply that Carmack in this example is a mathematical genius?
22:25:18 <imp9> does he "see" the code that he writes, for example if someone writes HTML and CSS without even checking the browser?
22:25:53 <ais523_> if an experienced programmer tries to write code without checking it at all on a computer, they'll make a bunch of mistakes, ranging from stupid to subtle
22:26:00 <ais523_> but the code will normally be approximately right
22:26:09 <imp9> ok but let me go one step back
22:26:29 <Bike> carmack is pretty good at math. he mostly talks about haskell and oculus rift nowadays.
22:26:37 <elliott> no, he tests it a lot and writes it incrementally
22:26:40 <elliott> you don't write a game engine all in one go.
22:26:46 <imp9> who made the language? if carmack for exampel used command "bind X bind Y" (im rambling obviously) - how does my computer KNOW what that means? how does it interpret that?
22:26:49 <elliott> you write little parts of a game engine until thy work and then wire them all together.
22:27:04 <elliott> because there's another program that tells the computer what it means.
22:27:05 <int-e> Best I can describe is that as you learn programming, you assemble larger and larger building blocks (while also remembering how to make those from smaller parts - that's what you have to do when programming from the ground up). No programmer will get anything done by thinking about individual statements in isolation.
22:27:15 <ais523_> imp9: programming languages are written in terms of other languages, going back through history; eventually you reach machine code, which the processor is designed to understand when it's made
22:27:21 <elliott> either by turning it into the computer's native machine code, or by being a program that interprets it as it goes.
22:27:27 <int-e> However, I believe every programmer has started on that level.
22:27:40 <imp9> this is some heavy philosophical shit fellas, i'm excited reading this you don't even know it
22:27:46 <ais523_> but basically, programming is about writing complex things in terms of simpler things
22:27:52 <int-e> imp9: don't overdo it
22:27:55 <imp9> so Quake existed when the first computer was made
22:28:03 <imp9> but nobody knew the "code" how to make it
22:28:09 <imp9> ok sorry i got ahead of myself :D
22:28:16 <ais523_> Quake couldn't have been written on the first computer, but only because it wasn't powerful enough to run it
22:28:17 <Bike> yeah well fuck plato.
22:28:33 <imp9> ais but hypothetically if it were powerful enough
22:28:34 <ais523_> if you took the first computer ever and scaled it up and made it faster, you could write Quake on that
22:28:38 <Bike> it's just a concrete version of how knowledge works elsewhere. i could talk to you about dendritic spines for hours but it wouldn't mean shit to you without some basic neuro knowhow.
22:28:40 <int-e> not my philosophy. software is created, not discovered.
22:28:59 <elliott> if quake did not exist, it would be necessary to invent it -- neechy, 1684
22:28:59 <ais523_> but probably nobody would have thought of it at the time
22:29:00 <imp9> ok lets go further a bit
22:29:06 <imp9> when people say "Carmack wrote"
22:29:17 <imp9> do they mean it in the same when as "Jobs made Apple"
22:29:21 <imp9> do they generalize
22:29:28 <imp9> or did Carmack did it himself
22:29:32 <imp9> literally alone
22:29:32 <elliott> you can write a 3D engine by yourself.
22:29:41 <elliott> I don't know whether he did it entirely himself or not.
22:29:44 <ais523_> I don't think Carmack did all of Quake alone, but it's certainly possible for one person to do most of that
22:29:53 <ais523_> my guess is he did most of it but someone else did the graphics
22:30:00 <Bike> it would be pretty impressive to write a book on your own too, but not impossible
22:30:03 <ais523_> it's rare to get someone who's good both at programmign and at 3D modelling
22:30:21 <int-e> Michael Abrash was involved in the engine part of Quake. He wrote a book about it.
22:30:33 <imp9> the whole id era fascinates me
22:30:43 <imp9> i tend to romanticize that era of computing
22:30:48 <ais523_> programming doesn't scale so well, two people will not work twice as fast as one person
22:30:54 <imp9> being born in 84 thats pretty obvious
22:31:18 <ais523_> although 100 people will collectively work much faster than 1 person if the task is easy to split up and well defined and they aren't brought onto the project at the last minute
22:31:41 <int-e> ais523_: ah, but this is not purely about productivity, it's about having the right ideas.
22:31:57 <ais523_> although, historically idea people tend to overestimate how important they are
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22:32:02 <ais523_> ideas are important though
22:32:41 <imp9> so just to make sure I'm getting it right
22:32:48 <imp9> every movement on the screen in Quake, or any videogame
22:32:53 <imp9> every single move
22:33:01 <imp9> with layered graphics
22:33:03 <elliott> you don't have to press enter every few words.
22:33:16 <ais523_> like, you don't write separate code for moving left and for moving right
22:33:40 <ais523_> you write code for moving horizontally, which will be the same for left and right just with the signs flipped (i.e. you use positive for left, negative for right, or the other way round)
22:33:47 <imp9> slapped on top of the polygons that were made "alive" by programming? or am I misinterpreting something?
22:33:57 <ais523_> then code for moving forward and backward will be slightly more different, but still quite similar
22:33:58 <elliott> I don't know, but you're not making much sense.
22:34:05 <int-e> ais523_: Of course they both implemented their own ideas, too.
22:34:06 <elliott> I don't think the philosophising is helping you here :p
22:34:18 <imp9> how can I make sense I don't know what code is :D
22:34:34 <imp9> all the code I ever wrote aside the css shit, was in elementary
22:34:45 <imp9> we had Logo 4.0 in computer class and I drew with the turtle
22:34:50 <int-e> > let code = fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1) in code
22:34:52 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
22:35:07 <elliott> logo is a pretty sophisticated programming language underneath
22:35:21 <ais523_> elliott: yes but most of the intro classes don't bother with the actual programming part of it :-(
22:35:58 <elliott> ais523_: I used logo as an excuse to do actual programming, once. just wrote straight up recursive numeric code in it with not a single draw call. didn't bother saying I knew how to program, just showed it off
22:36:04 <ais523_> over here, they start new programmers on a turtle graphics library which doesn't have complex lisp stuff underneath
22:36:16 <ais523_> just repeat-n-times loops and nonrecursive functions
22:36:28 <ais523_> which is still enough power to make the point, but really really weak
22:36:29 <int-e> right. a sequence of move/draw/turn instructions isn't really programming. but you can easily use loops, recursion, etc.
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22:36:41 <imp9> ais what? you serious? they really start programming teachings with logo in 2014?
22:37:16 <int-e> it gives immediate satisfaction (pictures), and it's an ok language
22:37:53 <elliott> logo is one of the best languages I can think of to start with
22:37:56 <int-e> and in the end, the programming language itself is not important, it's the concepts beneath. statements, loops, functions.
22:37:59 <imp9> I always thought that C++ was the only language "real programmers" use
22:38:07 <Bike> nah that's dumb
22:38:15 <elliott> that's not true and besides beginning programmers don't need to be saddled with real-world practical bullshit
22:38:19 <Bike> real programmers use snobol exclusively
22:39:04 <int-e> C++ isn't even that popular anymore. Not that C# or Java are so much nicer ... (and let's forget about PHP)
22:39:21 <imp9> ok but I must retract guys, you are obviously well versed in this while I'm obviously not. who made the machine code, the bare essence? does anyone have the example how does that language look like?
22:39:48 <elliott> it looks like a bunch of bytes.
22:39:53 <imp9> I'm probably missing the entire concept because I was born and raised on GUI and WYSIWYG so that's how my brain works...I did use DOS, but for games only so that doesn't count.
22:40:09 <elliott> you write assembly which has a bunch of text mnemonics for the basic instructions and they get turned into the raw encoded instruction bytes.
22:40:12 <Sgeo> The machine code is a bunch of high and low voltages (or is it high and low something else?) It's interpreted by the CPU, via ... I guess transistors encoded by doping silicon in certain ways
22:40:14 <int-e> elliott: a sure recipe for indygestion
22:40:21 <elliott> it runs because the people at intel made hardware which reads those bytes and then acts accordingly.
22:40:37 <imp9> but I can't help faux philosophize when I read that
22:40:51 <imp9> so that means that there are so many gems of software in my computer here
22:40:56 <imp9> only I can't decode them LOL
22:41:06 <imp9> I can't make them work, but someone will, at some point.
22:41:18 <elliott> I have no idea what you mean by that, but it seems to please you, so yes.
22:41:28 <imp9> oh cmon man, I'm not that unreasonable.
22:41:38 <elliott> I'm sure! I just don't know what you mean.
22:41:50 <int-e> imp9: I think the appropriate term is "incoherent"
22:41:57 <Bike> encoded transistors, huh
22:42:08 <imp9> think of piano. that's just keys. I can walk to a piano and hideous noise will come out if I try to play it. but someone, with the right knowledge, will make beautiful melody. and it's the same exact piano.
22:42:12 <Bike> little does sgeo realize that i play #esoteric on my reverseable crabputer
22:42:43 <Sgeo> I don't know enough about reversible computation to understand how that would falsify what I said
22:42:45 <elliott> if the CPU is the piano here and the beautiful melody is a program that actually works, then sure, I guess.
22:42:46 <imp9> that's what I mean, the keys on the piano are just sitting there
22:43:04 <int-e> I have an ascii art of a llizard (don't ask) sitting at a piano, asking "So... which button do I press to get this thing going?"
22:43:11 -!- ZuuGates has changed nick to ZuuTorvalds.
22:43:24 <elliott> the keys are all yours, imp9. welcome to your new home
22:43:31 <Bike> Sgeo: there are no transistors in my crabputer
22:43:36 <Bike> because it is made out of crabs
22:43:37 <elliott> btw, do you know a guy called itidus20?
22:43:51 <imp9> I insstalled xchat 2 days ago
22:43:57 <int-e> programming is easier than playing the piano. you can take all the time you want.
22:43:58 <imp9> not exactly well acquianted on IRC
22:44:08 <Bike> i don't think you could do reverseable computing with transistors though
22:44:17 <elliott> int-e: not a fan of john cage, I take it
22:44:18 <Bike> kind of don't want to remember CMOS enough to be sure
22:44:21 <Sgeo> int-e: programming may be more like composing music for a pinao
22:44:39 <Sgeo> You can take all the time you want with that too. Playing would be more like... manual interpretation?
22:44:49 <imp9> i guess that analogy is good too, yea
22:44:54 <int-e> elliott: even with 4'37" the timing is of utmost importance
22:45:15 <int-e> I should've googles
22:45:17 <elliott> Bike: the extended mix is so much better.
22:45:27 <imp9> I'm asking you these questions because I fell into career crisis lately and when I see what am I missing and how many things I don't know about, it makes my head hurt
22:45:28 <Sgeo> imp9: but with computers, you would get the piano to play the sheet music by itself. Or get the piano to turn the sheet music into a different kind of sheet music that the piano could play by itself.
22:45:42 <Bike> elliott: i prefer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6ZRKfZ-eHk
22:45:45 <elliott> int-e: see, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible
22:46:08 <int-e> Sgeo: Damn, now I'm imagining the cacophony of playing the source code of, say, Firefox ;-)
22:46:11 <oerjan> imp9: some of the people involved in inventing the basic ideas used for computing were geniuses by all measures. like von neumann who got the idea of putting the program of a computer in the same memory as its data. that would have been one of the first machine codes.
22:46:43 <elliott> Bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkp376ZcToc
22:46:59 <Bike> god what the fuck is nightcore
22:47:03 <Bike> is it something to do with anime
22:47:13 <imp9> these damn computers man....I mean I'm desensitized by em, everyone is, people are just using them like owens, and they're the greatest damn tools ever made on earth
22:47:14 <elliott> it's exactly like regular core but at night
22:47:35 <imp9> good god my father played with clay cowboys and indians and here we are now 50 years later...
22:47:55 <elliott> computers very existed in 1964
22:48:01 <Sgeo> Bike: sped up and modified music. Often associated with anime-ish women because who knows
22:48:05 <imp9> figuratively 50 years ago :)
22:48:23 <int-e> Google... "Nightcore is the glorified term to describe the style of speeding up Eurodance, Hands Up and Trance, emerged in the mid 2000s on YouTube. It is characterized by a tempo of between 160 and 180 beats per minute with high-pitched vocal. It is originated by the Norwegian DJ duo of the same name back in 2002"
22:48:29 <int-e> err, thanks, but no thanks.
22:48:39 <Bike> feeling the glorty here
22:49:01 <int-e> (source: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcultures/nightcore )
22:49:14 <Bike> night of the long cores
22:49:30 <imp9> lol @ nightcore, dear lord who listen to this at home haha
22:49:43 <elliott> "she's only, like, 46% anime"
22:49:58 <imp9> this is music for people who see 256 colors
22:51:24 <imp9> so can someone learn to program without formal education?
22:51:30 <oerjan> <imp9> [...] when I see what am I missing and how many things I don't know about, it makes my head hurt <-- that applies to everyone, no matter what they are doing. no exceptions.
22:51:36 <elliott> I self-taught programming starting at 8.
22:51:55 <elliott> (I also quit formal education in general not too long after that.)
22:52:07 <imp9> I'm old as hell I feel I could never catch up
22:52:24 <imp9> bout to turn 30 soon
22:52:31 <elliott> that's not old. oerjan is way older than you.
22:52:42 <elliott> even fizzie is older than you, I think. (did he ever turn 30?)
22:53:00 <imp9> still I need to catch up....my skills now have no intrinsic value
22:53:08 <elliott> if you were in your 40s or 50s then the programming job market might be less friendly to you, sure.
22:53:30 <imp9> fuck graphic design, it's replacable, unless you're Jon Ive level deeply embedded in a corporation like Apple, you're just a material
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22:54:06 <oerjan> we've had a guy here who was even older than me. that cobol guy, btiggins or whatever.
22:54:09 <elliott> most programmers are fungible, too.
22:54:15 <int-e> I'm not sure that programming is any different.
22:54:19 <imp9> nobody values my work and I'm sick of having presenting it to clients who tell me "oh let me get back when my wife says what she thinks about it"
22:54:34 <imp9> when you deploy a program, nobody's wife will make suggestions
22:54:43 <imp9> "can you please clean up that last part of code, that would be sweet"
22:54:55 <elliott> you're telling programmers you know more about what programming is like than them...?
22:55:04 <imp9> no no ... sorry not trying to be like that
22:55:18 <elliott> an lot of professional programming is just collaborative doing what you're told. like most professional things
22:56:05 <int-e> it won't be about colors, but you will get bug reports, feature requests, complaints that your software is stupid and claims that 6 year olds write better code than you do.
22:56:11 <imp9> ok not trying to argue that...but if you go freelance as a programmer...I think you are way more valued than someone like me who does graphics
22:56:33 <imp9> because everyone and their momma thinks they know graphics, or photography, or any other similar prostituted artform of the new millenium
22:56:50 <elliott> if you're a contractor, then you're still doing what people tell you to do.
22:57:02 <Sgeo> "Why isn't this working?" "That's what you told us it should do" <--paraphrase of conversations that have occured way too often
22:57:10 <elliott> if you want to program something off the top of your head and get rich off it, well, you can make an iPhone game and get lucky or something.
22:57:27 <imp9> I'm honestly not thinking about money
22:57:29 <elliott> programming is more invisible than graphic design anyway.
22:57:33 <imp9> just my values, my skillset
22:57:42 <imp9> yes thats true but programming is everything
22:57:47 <elliott> everonye can see that a graphic designer makes pretty things with their skill
22:57:48 <Sgeo> elliott: not when there are highly visible bugs, it's not invisible
22:58:12 <elliott> it's not invisible when software just works either, but people don't think about the programming that goes into things usually.
22:58:36 <imp9> that's why programmers can have better rates, i think that's obvious
22:58:47 <imp9> you can find graphic designer right now if you look outside your window
22:59:35 <Bike> outside my window is trees and dead rabbits
23:00:03 <imp9> if those rabbits were alive man... :D
23:00:11 <int-e> imp9: you might find http://worrydream.com/MagicInk/ interesting
23:00:41 <imp9> looks like a behemoth article, what's the scoop, what's it about?
23:00:52 <Bike> it starts with an abstract
23:01:48 <int-e> well, to me as a programmer, it's about how programmers produce bad user interfaces because they are not thinking about information like normal people.
23:02:20 <int-e> and how graphic designers ought to help them out.
23:02:30 <imp9> well it is all about collaborations, synthesis and all that...Jobs and Woz, Gates and Allen, Carmack and Romero etc :D
23:02:53 <imp9> none of those fellas would be anything if they went DIY route
23:02:59 <imp9> they would probably all be bums
23:03:24 <elliott> you really are like itidus.
23:03:52 <imp9> who's that man and why am I being occused of being him?
23:04:03 <elliott> I didn't say you are him. just you're alike.
23:04:13 <Bike> have you ever considered exhibiting a matrix of solidity
23:04:14 <imp9> run a check on me, I'm a douche from croatia europe wandering about things I know nothing about haha
23:04:32 <elliott> anyway attributing programs, or things in general, to the work of single geniuses is generally not a great way at looking at entire subjects, or history in general.
23:04:33 <Bike> a matrix of solidity
23:05:14 <imp9> I don't know what you mean bike, and I've googled that term with no direct results so... *kanye shrug*
23:05:25 <boily> ~duck matrix of solidity
23:05:35 <imp9> elliot I just watched Pirates of Silicon Valley few days ago - and I can only agree
23:05:41 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man_theory and so on.
23:05:55 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Movieposterposv.jpg oh jesus.
23:06:13 <imp9> is this "winners write the history books" type of theory?
23:06:21 <imp9> that's an obvious one, ain't it
23:06:40 <Bike> it's "history is driven by a bunch of single dudes and i do mean dudes who are magically awesome"
23:06:53 <elliott> no, it's talking about jobs and woz and gates and allen and garmack and romero like they're the only people on earth involved in making the things they're famous for
23:07:23 <imp9> well it is about everyone at ID, if we're talkin about Quake
23:07:36 <elliott> are we? I can't even tell any more.
23:07:38 <imp9> but it cannot be denied that, in this case, Carmack pulled the most weight
23:07:46 <imp9> he was the Michael Jordan of ID
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23:08:02 <elliott> that is not a comparison I would have thought of myself.
23:08:09 <Bike> iD was known early on for a Super Mario clone.
23:08:24 <int-e> he did certainly not look for a new perspective on life on IRC ;-)
23:08:32 <Bike> it involved some pretty clever programming, and also was a super mario clone
23:08:55 <imp9> well everything is a copy of something, if that's what you mean
23:09:01 <elliott> int-e: doesn't that just make imp9 the mike tyson of using a computer?
23:09:12 <Bike> i don't think you understand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj4HJkeQSg0
23:09:22 <int-e> elliott: what? he hasn't bitten off any ears yet, I think
23:09:49 <imp9> didn't know they were sued
23:09:56 <elliott> Bike: the ? blocks doing nothing is so beautifully sad
23:10:08 <Bike> they weren't sued, that's just what they called it
23:10:54 <Bike> i like to think of myself as the hypatia of using computers
23:11:09 <imp9> pretty much like the whole PARC thing with jobs and gates, right?
23:11:32 <imp9> when Jobs snatched gui from parc
23:11:50 <elliott> I like to think of myself as the gandhi of sleeping.
23:11:51 <imp9> nobody remembers them anymore (parc guys)
23:11:54 <Bike> i just meant these people steal all kindsa shit and generally can't do shit by themselves
23:12:19 <imp9> that's how it goes I guess...
23:12:50 <imp9> Parc guys had the chance to make their project go live when they pitched it to Xerox HQ in NY...but they probably lacked Jobs' reality distortion skills or something
23:13:21 <Bike> see that's the kind of thing i mean. reality distortion skills? he's a human being
23:13:39 <elliott> tbf, jobs was very charismatic (and brutal)
23:13:50 <elliott> not exactly a role model though
23:13:52 <imp9> jobs, in my opinion, was nuts
23:14:00 <imp9> I think he had sociopathic tendencies
23:14:25 <elliott> he always seemed like a pretty awful person to work for.
23:14:28 <elliott> made a lot of money though
23:14:29 <imp9> by the way the Jobs movie was awful
23:14:35 <int-e> he and pretty much everybody else in upper management.
23:15:19 <imp9> but I have to admit until I saw Pirates movie, I never realized how damn exciting and dare I say - epic - those 80s were in computer era...really fascinating decade
23:15:42 <Bike> unless that movie was in rhyming couplets you are forbidden from calling it epic
23:16:04 <imp9> I knew I didnt have to use that word
23:16:37 <imp9> i did it for the lulz
23:18:03 <elliott> look at all the lulz we're having together
23:18:14 <imp9> we avin a laff mate :)
23:18:20 <Bike> okay i already compared myself to someone with my skin removed
23:18:21 <fungot> int-e: we let him do that because evolving the browser environment above a certain level of support is required to understand the " functions"
23:18:43 <int-e> oh, right on topic. fungot is marvellous sometimes.
23:18:43 <fungot> int-e: so inherently it's bad. what's worse is it was the number of functions in
23:18:50 <Bike> anyway if you're that interested you might like reading some biographical material, like Coders at Work. something less apotheosistic than anything relating to jobs
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23:19:18 <Bike> you'll find that a lot of Important Programmers got into it because they flunked a math class or weren't very good at jazz or whatever
23:19:29 <Bike> is apotheosistic a word, oh well
23:19:53 <imp9> haha i was just googling that word, apparently it isnt :D
23:19:56 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halcyon_Days_%28book%29 hey, this one's free
23:20:18 <imp9> introduction by romero oh my
23:20:19 <boily> Bike: it is. I don't know what it means, but it is a fine word nonetheless. I like words.
23:20:54 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Apotheosis_of_George_Washington.jpg this is apotheosis
23:21:09 <imp9> are there any essential documentary on these subjects?
23:21:12 <elliott> romero is just a guy, y'know. he has hair and a wife. he showers regularly and eats food every day. probably.
23:21:36 <Bike> romero has a lot of hair, in fact
23:21:43 <elliott> I've read romero's hair care tips
23:21:45 <imp9> he's not just a guy, he made a mark on the entertainment industry, not exactly what everyone can claim :)
23:22:03 <imp9> lol he does have a majestic hair, almost unfair amount of follicular majesty
23:22:11 <elliott> yes, he did things. he's still just a guy. making idols of people doesn't really get anyone anywhere
23:22:35 <Bike> seriously though, coders at work is good, even though the publisher is kind of noticeably shitty. it even has interviews with... women
23:22:39 <elliott> pretty sure my hair is longer than romero's. life achievements
23:23:44 <imp9> there's a doom documentary on the tube...why doesn't quake get the love...the best damn video game of all time
23:24:21 <quintopia> boily: did you accept the trade offer?
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23:26:12 <int-e> good move, now I can sleep. :P
23:26:16 <boily> quintopia: I didn't, I had to make supper and eat. I know, I'm selfish...
23:26:31 <quintopia> boily: sign back on so you can get a portal 2
23:26:51 <boily> in about half an hour. food is being included in me.
23:27:26 <quintopia> but it could be has happenedening while it eats
23:27:41 <Bike> i have this weird urge to act as a marathon fanboy...
23:28:05 <boily> I'm not a knight of ni.
23:28:15 <elliott> `addquote <quintopia> i thought you'd choke on "it"
23:29:18 <quintopia> i wouldn't mind if you did add it though. but you probably would.
23:29:45 <int-e> elliott: you had an extra space though
23:29:58 <boily> elliott is a grumpy dadaist.
23:30:24 <quintopia> elliott: i lol'd a bit. but it wouldn't be funny out of this context, i agree.
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