00:00:01 Trufax 00:01:08 I'm going to be honest. The only thing I've learned in math that I haven't learned from khan academy/programming is quadratics. Now, I know that they have go go through the hoops with everyone else, but it gets frustrating 00:01:33 I'm done with school. already forgetting large swabs of it, and it feels good. liberating, even. 00:01:47 And I've only had 2 teachers, ever, that actually cared 00:01:50 Math education *in particular* is pretty dang messed up. 00:02:08 Doesn't help that they are paid minimum wage, or close to it 00:02:09 Pretty much everyone thinks of math as essentially being magic rituals performed to arcane runes. 00:02:11 now I'm seeing my bro still going through it, and telling him “suffer!”. I love my bro. 00:02:26 Haha that's pretty good 00:02:40 * pikhq isn't in school or anything, just bitter about the system. :) 00:03:09 * CrazyM4n is in school and is very bitter about the system 00:04:14 CrazyM4n: how many years left in this glorious communal purgatory? 00:04:35 3.8 00:04:50 Then shooting for MIT 00:04:53 Quick 00:04:58 Good luck with that. 00:04:59 Gotta write more code 00:05:21 Bicyclidine: \in. 00:05:24 By 3 years I should have enough code in my github to at least get me somewhere :P 00:05:26 (Slightly late.) 00:05:35 math is hard, let's go shopping 00:05:55 Hah, so about them esoteric languages 00:06:03 Speaking as an employed programmer sans college degree: yes, that is a great idea. 00:06:44 I'd hate to be employed as a programmer. I'd think that if I were to program, I'd like to be self employed 00:06:54 Which is kinda what I want to do 00:07:06 Eh, I'm only a couple steps away from that. 00:07:08 -!- not^v has joined. 00:07:15 That must be nice 00:07:32 We can fit the entire company in a couple of vehicles. :P 00:07:33 I'm employed as a Software Developer. we don't say “programmer”. it's filthy :P 00:07:53 Okay, okay, my business card says "software engineer". 00:07:56 The second I hit 18 and get a tax ID I'm going to start selling android apps 00:08:18 As far as I'm aware, you don't need to be 18 for that... 00:08:26 Welp 00:08:43 Also, when you're 18 that might not be a thing that is all that interesting to do. :) 00:08:55 Never said it would be interesting 00:09:13 I'm pretty good at it, and it would make me money, and it's pretty fun to code 00:09:27 So, it's kinda a win all around situation 00:09:33 * boily is jealous of pikhq “I wanna have cards too...” 00:09:34 Let's go with "lucrative" then. You're what, 14, 15? 00:09:54 Yes 00:10:06 In 2018 Android apps just might not matter. 00:10:28 I don't see android dieing any time soom 00:10:31 ... Or they might matter heavily still, in which case I'm speaking irrelevancies. :) 00:10:47 And if it does die, there's always a new mobile thing 00:10:55 Mobile is a giant market, after all 00:11:00 Well yes. There's always *something* new. 00:11:51 As long as it's not monopolized by some closed economy shady Microsoft business, it'll be ok 00:11:57 -!- not^v has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:12:34 IMHO, go for something where there is a guarantee of an everlasting demand, e.g. healthcare, transport, logistics, public services, ecology... 00:12:48 -!- not^v has joined. 00:13:10 also, I see you're having a pretty healthy attitude towards closed source :D 00:14:13 Haha, it's not the closed sourceness. It's the "Microsoft controls every aspect of this" I don't like 00:14:39 E.g: i have to type my Microsoft password to log onto my Microsoft windows 8 laptop 00:14:41 No joke 00:14:58 Believe it or not, that's actually an entirely optional feature. 00:15:11 Looked in the options a while ago 00:15:33 You can turn off the password on wake up, but not on boot 00:15:43 Or maybe I'm oblivious 00:15:59 You could also write the software for a VM and then run on other computers; for example a program written for Famicom will also run on emulators. 00:16:24 Then it can be use regardless if it is Android or old or new mobile or desktop computers. 00:17:16 Simulating a whole nother os/architecture on a phone is bound to be terribly slow 00:17:30 At least, simulating a modern os 00:18:04 “a whole nother” is a fascinating phrase. 00:18:46 Not grammatically correct, but it sounds good and I catch myself using it a lot 00:19:03 Then simulate a slower system 00:19:41 Or, you can make it a Harvard based system so that it can be compiled into a native code 00:19:47 It’s pervasive. I wouldn’t call it “not correct”. Just an interesting history. 00:20:10 `? nother 00:20:11 nother? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 00:20:55 I'm tempted to add the whole of it to the wisdom, but I feel I already uhm... corrupted, yeah, corrupted is a nice word here... it quite a bit. 00:20:56 Like https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Lukas.Fast64 or https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ru.meefik.linuxdeploy 00:21:34 However you haven't got the full feature unless the program is usable with pipes and that stuff too 00:21:36 Wouldn't call the latter a simulation/emulation, but hey, it's an os on an os 00:21:43 Reanalysis is usually fun. 00:22:12 There is also Inferno, which is designed to be an operating system which can run standalone or in any other operating system, with binaries that can work on any computer 00:22:54 There's also some stuff like Wine or ReactOS, made to pretty much replace a need for that OS 00:24:06 Wine and ReactOS are both for x86 though 00:24:27 It is good if you are going to run x86 Windows programs, but maybe the computer won't be x86 00:25:00 I've never seen a computer that isn't x86 00:25:06 Well 00:25:08 Well, then pretty much the entire point would be gone. 00:25:15 I guess 00:26:08 -!- Imaginer1 has joined. 00:27:18 uh, how do I message nickserv with my password? 00:27:52 Imaginer1: Type NS HELP for information about Nickserv. 00:28:10 In the sense that wine only provides the context, but the machine code runs directly, to avoid the overhead of emulation. Else you can just run a VM. 00:28:32 Ah, regain. 00:28:43 NES/Famicom already has protocols for gamepad, keyboard, mouse, drawing tablet, tape, light gun, disks, and even MIDI, so you can write the program for NES/Famicom and then run it in emulator too 00:28:45 I guess not. 00:29:24 There. 00:32:12 That's pretty cool, actually 00:32:27 But that's given that the target platform has NES emulators 00:32:34 This is the niche that java fits 00:33:00 zzo38: tape? where there any official peripherals for the fami that had tape? 00:33:13 Yes, but there are many NES emulators anyways. 00:33:22 boily: Yes, the tape is connected through the keyboard. 00:34:06 I am intrigued. 00:34:50 * boily searches on google images. “heh, only 9800 ¥!” 00:35:30 It has been suggested to use OekaKids (drawing tablet) protocol for touch-screen interfaces, so I suppose you can use that too. 00:37:35 Infocom has also made Z-machine code to implement the interpreter on many computers. There are now many interpreters but they are defective in various ways; I have written "Aimfiz" which is a correct (as far as I can tell) Z-code interpreter. 00:38:11 Infocom has also made a "D-machine code" which has some relations to Z-machine code. 00:42:41 There is even an unofficial printer protocol for Famicom, I think. 00:43:04 Is Famicom home brewing really a big thing? 00:44:16 I have written some programs for Famicom. 00:46:32 That's cool 00:46:47 *kssh* this is Imaginer1 to Esoteric do you read me *kssh* 00:47:21 Imaginer1: Yes, I can read 00:47:45 *kssht* we hear ya Imaginer1, rodger *kssht* 00:48:09 *kssh* arright I'm suffering from some, uh... *kssht* 00:48:17 *kssht* boredom, over. *kssht* 00:48:27 * boily uses a highly technical procedure known as PM on Imaginer1 00:50:39 wat 00:50:46 I'm using a horrible IRC client 00:50:49 percussive maintenance :D 00:50:56 Ahh. 00:51:12 http://pastebin.com/sj7ysgbE# 00:51:16 Python entropic data type. 00:51:30 Don't use foo.value, use foo.getvalue() and it changes the value slightly and randomly after reading it. 00:53:21 Then you should write a good IRC client? 00:53:50 Me? Write a good irc client? -Write-? 00:53:55 I couldn't, could I? 00:53:57 O.O 00:54:08 I'm so horrified of that prospect. 00:54:19 and now I must do it. 00:54:36 Can anyone point me to resources for linking IRC with Python? 00:55:58 i think the usual is using twistd? 00:56:00 I don't know much about programming in Python. 00:56:02 or maybe that's just for bots. 00:56:20 Oh, I'd still love to write bots. 00:56:26 Why are you horrified of it? 00:56:34 It sounds difficult. 00:56:36 writing bots is fun! exploiting them even funner! 00:56:38 It sounds like... /power/. 00:56:46 >:D 00:57:05 I'm not 'scared', I'm just... I feel like I'm learning programming at an astonishing rate and like wow 00:57:06 I have written an IRC client myself, so I know how too, but I didn't use any IRC client library. 00:57:07 Over on the TPPI channel we would mess with the bot all the tine 00:57:11 It was pretty great 00:57:12 it ain't difficult at all. rig some library, and go wild! (but you can't touch weather. weather is mine, even if lambdabot stole it.) 00:57:19 Imaginer1: ↑ 00:57:30 weather...? 00:57:36 there's a weather library 00:58:06 I want a weather library for SQLite. 00:58:44 I already have 'Mkbot' which makes Markov chains. What if I made a bot that could let you supply a pastebin and he would return a short markov chain from it? 00:59:09 Imaginer1: weather is verboten. it is an edict. I decree it. 00:59:25 also, what are your approximate geographic coördinates, and body weigh? 00:59:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:59:54 I'm feeling really uncomfortable I don't know what verboten or edict mean and you spelled coordinates with an ö 01:00:20 Then look it up in dictionary and then you can learn. 01:00:43 There was a PDF file somewhere in the topic or whatever you call it 01:01:00 Arright... I thought it was programmer slang. :S 01:01:08 I'm just nervous in half these rooms gosh 01:01:29 c̈oor̈d̈ïn̈äẗës̈ 01:01:38 Just don't be an idiot and I think it will be ok 01:01:41 you should read the PDF. letters with diacritics are your friends. roast beef tastes good. 01:02:04 CrazyM4n: that is not a particularly nice thing to say 01:02:16 what pdf, are you talking to me? 01:02:20 i'M SUCH AN IDIOT GAHDS 01:02:21 *flails* 01:03:20 There is wisdom.pdf in the topic, but also read all of the IRC logs (also in the topic message) and my Dungeons&Dragons recording 01:03:57 `` head -n1 bin/danddreclist 01:03:58 echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; echo http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex; exit 01:04:05 Oh, there... 01:04:43 '@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapor' 01:04:50 a pure magic smoke OS must be very effective 01:05:28 What is this pdf. 01:05:30 Omg. 01:05:50 boily: what is your approximate body kurd? 01:06:38 kurd??? 01:06:43 as in the cheese kind? 01:07:07 Imaginer1: it is the PDF. I spent quite some time updating it. it has pineapples. 01:07:12 as in the kurdistan kind 01:07:18 or the kind you play on a piano 01:07:24 * boily facepalms 01:07:57 well, of the piano kind, I'm partial towards Eb. it sounds quite nice. 01:08:40 You can play piano? 01:08:54 What kind of music? 01:09:11 `unidecode ♭ 01:09:12 [U+266D MUSIC FLAT SIGN] 01:09:28 Well. If I was to write a bot what should it do? 01:09:39 Play Pokemon card? 01:09:45 jam 01:09:47 (with a non-stupid AI) 01:09:54 Too difficult. 01:10:01 And... well... 01:10:11 lame. 01:10:19 zzo38: I studied the classics for about twelve years. I really like Bach and Bartók. both are genius, and a joy to play. 01:10:19 You could make an OP deck 01:11:22 -!- Imaginer1 has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 01:11:57 I like Bach too 01:12:20 he disappeared... 01:12:56 @tell Imaginer1 you shouldn't disappear. become one with your esoteric side. feel at ease. 01:12:57 Consider it noted. 01:17:23 Woo, homework finished 01:17:32 Now to write that Fibonacci generator 01:17:46 -!- CrazyM4n has quit (Quit: Bye). 01:18:45 -!- CrazyM4n has joined. 01:18:54 finally on a computer. i feel so powerful 01:20:08 -!- CrazyM4n has quit (Client Quit). 01:20:33 -!- CrazyM4n has joined. 01:23:43 -!- Imaginer1 has joined. 01:23:50 Alright. I'm looking into the twisted module. 01:23:52 ^^ 01:25:17 Oh dear, I know so little about irc in the first place 01:25:28 I'm only 17 maybe I'm not cut out for this 01:25:36 :S 01:26:13 CrazyM4n: Fibonacci generator meaning what? 01:27:05 Melvar: I made a language http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfunge and I´m trying to write a program that prints fibonacci numbers 01:27:15 Ah, I saw that. 01:27:20 I know it´s possible but it´s a pain in the butt 01:27:30 Oh, in your esolang. 01:27:34 I'm not normally one for yet -another- brainfuck derivative... but.... 01:27:57 ( :let fibs : Stream Nat; fibs = 0 :: 1 :: [| fibs + tail fibs |] 01:27:57 defined 01:27:58 same here. it was going to just kinda be 2d brainfuck but then I was like ¨ooh commands¨ 01:28:20 ( take 10 fibs 01:28:23 [0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34] : Vect 10 Nat 01:28:41 god i love functional languages 01:29:38 http://sprunge.us/ChFA I´m in the middle of writing hello world 01:29:52 how much is Brainfunge different from Befunge? 01:30:06 uh. I couldn´t tell you. I don´t know befunge 01:30:11 it´s definately simpler 01:30:27 but therefore programs are more verbose to write 01:30:39 it just seems to me that Brainfunge is a simpler, stripped down version of Befunge with a different reportoire of instructions 01:30:53 -!- lifthras1ir has changed nick to lifthrasiir. 01:31:03 meh for the nick collision 01:31:14 like I said, I know no befunge except from the pointer commands + how the pointer works 01:31:27 and I shamelessly rippped those and put them in my language 01:31:33 the rest is coincedence 01:31:47 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:33:35 either way it was a heck of a lot of fun to write 01:34:53 i want another language that has musical source codeeee 01:37:59 CrazyM4ny: Befunge ^v<>~&,.0123456789+*$:&@ = Brainfunge ^v<>IiOo0123456789+*`!\@ respectively; Befunge - / :0`!_ :0`| = Brainfunge &- &/ H V 01:38:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: UNRESPONSIVE CHICKEN). 01:38:28 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:38:30 I think this correspondence is enough to classify Brainfunge as a rather trivial derivative of Befunge, and not Brainfuck. 01:39:46 (two instructions from Brainfuge are missing in Befunge-93, but they are available in Funge-98 as an extension. 01:39:49 ) 01:49:01 oh. 01:49:03 well then. 01:49:18 i wasn´t aware that twhat i made was almost a direct dialect of befunge 01:49:26 should I rename it? 01:49:40 maybe to Simplefunge or something 01:50:40 -!- Imaginer1 has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 02:01:04 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia. 02:01:10 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 02:01:10 -!- quintopia has joined. 02:30:44 so 02:30:58 I finally bothered working on addition that doesn´t pop 02:31:05 ¨!2|!2|2|3|+¨ 02:31:26 haven´t tested it 02:34:48 http://prntscr.com/4jsjcl 02:39:33 scratch that; doesn´t work 02:39:34 :P 02:51:53 so apparently that piece of code works 02:52:00 but i implemented ¨|¨ incorrectly 02:52:20 i feel so dumb 02:55:24 Why did you pick ¨ in an otherwise ascii-looking thing? 02:55:37 uh 02:55:43 hexchat is really weird 02:55:54 ¨ is a quote and ´ is an apostrophe 02:56:02 instead of normal things 02:59:13 Maybe you should change the settings in the program? 02:59:46 let me look for a setting that sounds related 03:00:01 Those are a spacing diaeresis and a spacing acute. 03:00:20 What’s your keyboard layout, locale, and input method? 03:00:42 typing into notepad results in normal characters 03:00:53 "' 03:00:55 vs 03:00:58 ¨´ 03:01:06 Oh, Windows? Never mind, no idea. 03:01:29 there, fixed it 03:01:30 -!- Imaginer1 has joined. 03:01:34 "´ 03:01:37 never mind 03:01:40 Howdy. 03:01:40 Not quite. 03:02:35 n̈ 03:02:49 03:02:51 ... 03:03:10 hexchat is so broken 03:06:51 AFAIU, GTK on Windows tends to have various problems because it was designed for Unixoid environments with X, and wants functionality that is difficult to cobble together on Windows. 03:07:35 it is 03:18:02 -!- Imaginer1 has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 03:45:09 -!- not^v has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:51:03 -!- CrazyM4n has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:52:42 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 04:03:12 -!- not^v has joined. 04:52:19 -!- not^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/Akc6r.gif). 05:57:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:21:32 `run gforth -e '-5 2 / . bye' # wasn't expecting that 06:21:33 -3 06:21:56 It's a floored division, not the more usual truncating one. (Both are apparently allowed.) 06:23:32 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:24:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 06:24:09 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:24:18 `run gforth -e 's" FLOORED" environment? [if] . [then] bye' # see? 06:24:19 -1 06:45:56 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 06:55:37 Is there a codepad thingy where others can edit it? 06:55:47 (codepad is some snippet pasting site) 06:56:31 ah. lpaste.net can do it 06:58:52 I think ideone too. 06:59:12 And there was one with real-time collaborative editing, with the whole "several cursors" thing and all. 07:01:32 I can't remember which one it was that I saw, Google finds several. 07:03:12 one that runs in the browser? 07:03:21 Yes. 07:03:34 which one did you find? 07:03:48 At least http://collabedit.com/ (the "try it now" link). 07:04:01 And http://codebunk.com/ 07:04:22 Also I think it was codebunk.com that I saw, the interface looks vaguely familiar. 07:04:30 Neither of those require any accounts or anything. 07:05:11 Also http://demo.firepad.io/ 07:05:32 Firepad is the bit that runs quite a lot of them, that's their own demo page. 07:06:20 They have a couple of "Built with Firepad" links on the main http://firepad.io/ page that most sound like they'd fit the bill. 07:07:05 CoderPad.io seems to have fancy "also runs the code" support. 07:07:53 are there any free ones? 07:08:00 coderpad and codebank I'm not so sure 07:08:06 there's a "pricing" info 07:08:30 anyway: http://lpaste.net/3911621673622700032 07:08:38 people are welcome to add more 07:08:50 (these are all optional directives as discussed yesterday) 07:09:11 It just makes sense to define a set of optional directives to establish common namings 07:10:13 How do you envision something like #MEM_WRAP_LEFT #MEM_UNBOUNDED_RIGHT to work? 07:10:50 Wrap to the furthest-on-the-right cell that's ever been visited? 07:11:48 or that's ever been allocated 07:12:15 That sounds quite vague, since you have no control over that. 07:12:34 True 07:12:50 furthest-on-the-right ever been visited makes more sense I assume 07:13:24 Having a name for all the unlikely combinations (like who's ever heard of #MEM_UNBOUNDED_LEFT #MEM_WRAP_RIGHT) might be overly complex. (Disclaimer: I'm not all that interested in the world of brainfuck and probably shouldn't be listened to.) 07:17:00 I'm not planning to have names for combinations of multiple directives 07:17:07 you can just use multiple directives in the code 07:22:18 No, I mean, that's already a name for the rather unlikely configuration, even if it has multiple directives. 07:22:21 (Gone now.) 07:38:46 damn 07:38:50 how does one undo git add again :( 07:49:26 ah. you need to specify a path for git reset 07:49:46 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:24:14 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:33:54 "git status" is supposed to have a helpful reminder of that at the top of the "staged changes" list. 08:36:36 it does 08:36:41 mroman_: Bookmark this: http://sethrobertson.github.io/GitFixUm/fixup.html 08:47:09 The javascript-driven "current path" machinery could do with a few lines of more intelligence. 08:47:29 Going backwards by clicking the path links just appends those same questions. 09:05:12 wait 09:05:22 A -> B -> C if you click on B it's A -> B -> C -> B? 09:05:42 (are you talking about breadcrumbs?) 09:06:27 Yes. 09:06:46 And the regular back button doesn't affect them at all, of course. 09:07:09 It's fine for a single "playthrough" of the document, but awkward for browsing around. 09:09:41 Frank Herbert's guide to computing circa 1980: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/content/books/WithoutMeYoureNothing_FrankHerbert.pdf 09:15:28 "It is our belief that you have been lied to about computers as part of a conspiracy—sometimes deliberate, sometimes unconscious—to keep them in the hands of an elite few." 09:17:02 it's more subtle now 09:17:24 you have computers but increasingly, you don't control them. 09:18:43 COMPUTERS DO NOT MAKE ERRORS. 09:18:49 Quantum physics would beg to differ. 09:19:24 By that logic humans make no errors 09:19:28 but god does 09:19:54 (or some other thing that may have created us) 09:22:44 ion: it's worse. they (fairly) reliably do as they are told 09:33:49 It's subtle 09:34:00 but given we program some AI that can make decisions 09:34:18 then that AI certainly should be able to do errors 09:34:27 that can't be reasonably be linked to programmers? 09:34:34 -be 09:36:45 good headline, "Computers are not Oracles" 09:38:39 There's an Oracle though that writes Software for Computers. 09:51:33 fungot: Are you an Oracle Y/N? 09:51:33 fizzie: you are never gonna succeed in convincing a sizable proportion of scheme users. 09:51:46 I think that was a "yes, and here's a prediction for you". 09:52:57 wow, fun got outdid itself there. 09:57:01 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 09:57:27 fungot 09:58:21 `unidecode fungot 09:58:22 oerjan: uh i thinks the " dump fnord from teh phone via teh cable" works not when fnord is installed... b/ c they dont understand the trace 09:58:22 [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0067 LATIN SMALL LETTER G] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] 09:58:34 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:58:41 why didn't it respond to int-e 09:58:41 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 09:58:57 `unidecode fungot 09:58:57 [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE] [U+0067 LATIN SMALL LETTER G] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] 09:59:38 hm that's weird 09:59:51 `unidecode > [ 09:59:52 [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] 09:59:59 If Lisp is the language of AI, does that mean that the first act of a true AI will be to write its own Lisp? 10:00:18 you are using a different zero width space which putty _doesn't_ copy and paste 10:01:06 hm it pastes if i copy it from the logs instead 10:01:09 The FEFF space. 10:01:24 but not if a copy directly from irssi 10:01:32 nah, I don't believe in this "lisp is the language of AI" nonsense 10:02:35 b_jonas: it does seem to be fading in popularity in that scene (norvig went Python, lots of classes are teaching it in Java, etc.), though apparently it's gaining another in quantum computing. 10:03:22 I heard the other day that our university went to Scala for intro-to-programming courses. 10:03:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 10:03:50 There are still a number of intro courses using Racket, largely on the strength of HTDP. 10:03:50 They were Scheme when I did them, then they switched to Java, then Java for CS students and Python for other students, then Python for all, and now Scala for at least CS students. 10:04:32 (Also they switched the Scheme from SICP to HtDP the year before I did them, I think.) 10:05:00 Well, that's not entirely accurate: they split the course in half, and switched the first half to HtDP and the second to PLAI. 10:06:06 I'm slowly working through HTDP right now, actually. 10:06:29 @tell oerjan strangely, xterm with fixed font even displays that non-breaking space: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/nbspace.png 10:06:29 Consider it noted. 10:08:25 J_Arcane: I'm not saying lisp is bad, but I don't see why you'd have to consider it "the language of AI". 10:09:04 I mean, back when there were only two or three languages, fortran and lisp, maybe you could have said it was a better language for AI than fortran, because it has dynamically allocated structures and stuff like that, 10:09:09 but now thta's pointless. 10:09:39 I think "the language of AI" is just a statement that got stuck from that time. 10:09:45 b_jonas: Well, partly it's historical: it WAS the language of AI for a long time. And partly, there are some strong arguments from people far smarter than me that the way it handles data structures etc. do make AI-type tasks easier, but I wouldn't presume to take them on. 10:09:53 prolog has also been the language of ai for a while 10:12:08 of course MIT's AI lab developed the Lisp machine, and the endeavour left a lasting impression :) 10:12:51 -!- boily has joined. 10:13:24 J_Arcane: Just don't believe HtDP when it tries to tell you that lambda is a special case of "local". 10:14:26 http://htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-30.html "-- it is not surprising that Scheme provides a short-hand for this particular, frequent use of local --" 10:14:30 (Pet peeve.) 10:15:35 Oh it pretends that lambdas have a name underneath. 10:17:10 And "local" is of course not any sort of R5RS standard form. 10:17:15 Well, in Racket, technically, they do. Even the docs will tell you that. 10:17:39 Racket didn't exist when I was reading this. 10:17:47 It was just PLT Scheme. 10:18:02 Yeah. I'm reading the 2nd Edition, which is post Racket. 10:18:19 Oh, they've made a new one? 10:18:35 Yup: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/ 10:19:02 It's still in progress I think technically, but the stable edition gets updated in time with new Racket releases. 10:20:11 I'm probably just grumbly because I had read SICP and done the Scheme course homework for fun while doing my civil service thing (before starting at the university), and then they went and switched. 10:20:24 PLAI I think I liked. 10:20:32 Even though we didn't cover it terribly thoroughly. 10:21:11 And it was't also quite released yet, we used a beta. 10:21:16 Heh heh. I still find the whole "design pattern" thing a bit weird, but then I also realized I've picked up some bad design habits so I'm trying to force myself to do them anyway. 10:23:42 hmm "Generative Recursion" is an odd term. 10:30:29 It's one of their own terms, I think. 10:32:12 design patterns are a scam for the most part, and those that matter shouldn't be explicitely named in the code. 10:37:46 boily: Well aren't you just a Flyweight Proxy Facade Bridge Adapter. 10:38:21 Heh. 10:40:25 It just manages to seem more verbose while being less obviously interpretable, and I can't help noticing I don't see any of it in the wild ... 10:41:00 J_Arcane: https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition/ sure you do 10:41:47 See e.g. com.seriouscompany.business.java.fizzbuzz.packagenamingpackage.impl.strategies.adapters.LoopContextStateRetrievalToSingleStepOutputGenerationAdapter. 10:41:59 It *is* helpful for "getting" how that style of functional programming can be built. 10:42:09 fizzie: I mean in the Racket community. 10:42:15 Oh, okay. 10:44:05 I don't see a lot of "Image Number WorldState -> String" and the like in actual Racket code in the real world, in fact there's a non-trivial amount of the usual Lisper thing of "But Lisp is so easy to read, so clearly I don't need to comment" 10:44:53 IsEvenlyDivisibleStrategyFactory.java [separated into interface and two implementations, one for Fizz, oone for Buzz. obviously.] 10:45:08 fizzie: you are vile, but then I have to battle against GenericAbstractControllerFactory and stuff like that daily, so your jab reaches me. 10:45:27 if (NumberIsMultipleOfAnotherNumberVerifier.numberIsMultipleOfAnotherNumber(theInteger, FizzStrategyConstants.FIZZ_INTEGER_CONSTANT_VALUE)) ... 10:45:36 fizzie: thanks 10:46:47 (that class also implements the RedundantIf design pattern: if (foo) { return true; } else { return false }.) 10:47:40 I'm going to have a very interesting day, what with the daymares you're inducing... 10:48:00