←2014-09-10 2014-09-11 2014-09-12→ ↑2014 ↑all
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00:41:30 <zzo38> It seems a bit messy to define "label types" in Haskell; for example: data A = A deriving (Eq, Typeable); instance Xyzzy A where { xyzzy A = putStrLn "Hello, World!"; }; Defining the codes needed to use them can also be a bit messy.
00:42:40 <elliott> zzo38: you could use type-level strings.
00:42:54 <elliott> those are automatically Typeable and stuff
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00:45:27 <zzo38> But would those do it? I suppose if you can then make instances, it can help.
00:45:52 <zzo38> However it would look to be a bit less mathematically elegant then.
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00:47:55 <zzo38> So using type-level strings doesn't look right to me.
00:50:40 <zzo38> Are there better ways? Using macros or whatever?
00:50:55 <zzo38> Are there proposals to fix this?
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03:09:56 <Bike> Is there a good way to see if a 32bit library is available on a 64bit posix system?
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05:29:57 <zzo38> Is "Gxxyuxihuvxi" more difficult than "Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe"?
05:35:01 <lifthrasiir> I dxn't knxw.
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06:02:53 <mroman_> !blsq 12<-
06:02:53 <blsqbot> 21
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06:45:14 <mroman_> !blsq {1 2}ab
06:45:14 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (ab) Invalid arguments!
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07:22:23 <zzo38> I learned recently that Pokemon de Panepon is actually compatible with a mono GameBoy even though it says it requires a color GameBoy. If you push "A" button 24 times and then push "B" button 24 times, then it will start anyways, although the music is different and less game modes are available.
07:22:47 <zzo38> (This works even if you have a color GameBoy.)
07:24:19 <mroman_> I recentlyl learned that Pokemon Yellow(?) is turing complete .
07:27:59 <J_Arcane2> wat
07:29:15 <olsner> mroman_: is that the one using a buffer overflow to write machine code using the inventory?
07:30:01 <J_Arcane2> http://www.curtisbright.com/bln/2013/03/01/pokemon-yellow-is-turing-complete/
07:30:27 <olsner> (because that just means the Z80 (or whatever cpu it uses) is turing complete, as far as I'm concerned)
07:34:51 <mroman_> olsner: yeah
07:36:59 <mroman_> so
07:37:06 <mroman_> content: doesn't work for inputs?
07:39:06 <Jafet> I wonder if chip's challenge is turing complete (a periodic pattern of walls would be needed)
07:39:38 <Jafet> Maybe I should make it a language and wait for oerjan to prove it
07:43:05 <mroman_> hm...
07:43:06 <mroman_> :)
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07:43:50 <mroman_> ah
07:43:53 <mroman_> now we're talking
07:44:06 <Jafet> The monster move order could make things complicated, though.
07:45:15 <mroman_> is it allowed to write div::first-letter:before?
07:45:21 <mroman_> (CSS3)
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07:48:40 <b_jonas> mroman_: I don't think so
07:49:31 <mroman_> no fun
07:51:21 <mroman_> I suspect :not doesn't work in CSS
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07:52:37 <mroman_> div.bar:not(div.bar::first-letter) {color: green;}
07:52:54 <zzo38> I have heard of the inventory buffer overflow in Pokemon Yellow. The CPU is similar to Z80, although there are some differences.
07:53:06 <mroman_> Thought it would select everything in div.bar except the first-letter
07:56:19 <mroman_> damn
07:56:28 <mroman_> a:visited::after isn't working either
07:58:51 <mroman_> I think browsers don't support certain stuff for security reasons
07:59:14 <mroman_> I don't know whether CSS says that you can't use a:visited ~ p?
07:59:43 <mroman_> hm
08:03:32 <mroman_> k
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08:45:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ragaraja]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40432&oldid=36700 * Mauriceling * (+1)
08:48:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ragaraja]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40433&oldid=40432 * Mauriceling * (-4)
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08:52:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ragaraja]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40434&oldid=40433 * Mauriceling * (+0) /* Influences from other works */
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09:32:21 <mroman_> odd
09:32:29 <mroman_> using Java Random Numbers from 1..10
09:32:44 <mroman_> in a set of 4096 random numbers there are numbers that occur 50 times as much
09:33:42 <mroman_> that looks broken
09:35:12 <b_jonas> mroman_: maybe show a testcase code?
09:35:58 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/O5Q24OSM
09:36:30 <mroman_> Sometimes a number occurs up to 80 times as much as the least occuring number
09:37:32 <mroman_> yeah
09:37:37 <mroman_> like I said... broken :)
09:37:45 <mroman_> I knew this couldn't be
09:37:52 <mroman_> nvm
09:37:58 <mroman_> typo :)
09:38:50 <shachaf> `olist (962)
09:38:50 <HackEgo> olist (962): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
09:40:27 <mroman_> (a bug in my histogram function)
09:40:35 <b_jonas> oh
09:40:45 <b_jonas> ok
09:41:27 <mroman_> It's in the range of 1.1-1.3 times as many actually
09:41:30 <mroman_> that's ok
09:41:42 <mroman_> that's within my threshold of what I accept as uniformly distributed
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10:05:18 <mroman_> crap :(
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10:43:50 <fizzie> That's curious; I've read the .nextInt(n) API docs, and they're very proud about how they actually bother to work around the usual nonuniformness problems.
10:44:01 <oerjan> ooh list
10:44:13 <fizzie> (By rejecting up to 1/2 of sampled numbers in the worst case.)
10:44:54 <fizzie> http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/Random.html#nextInt(int)
10:45:37 <fizzie> (Though I didn't check the code, maybe that deviation is in fact within the expected bounds given how many numbers you make and so on.)
10:48:40 <Jafet> "The algorithm is slightly tricky."
10:49:53 <Jafet> "The class uses a 48-bit seed, which is modified using a linear congruential formula."
10:50:06 <boily> some day I'll buy a lava lamp just to get real random numbers.
10:50:13 <Jafet> I don't think whitening an LCG really matters
10:53:10 <boily> an LCG is doomed to be predictable, broken, maimed, fold, cut, spindled, mutilated and otherwise exploited.
10:54:22 <oerjan> are you saying this cryptographic LCG is a sham
10:54:58 <boily> quite.
10:55:19 <fizzie> It certainly matters to pick the high bits instead of the low ones, even with a LCG. There's bad, and then there's really bad.
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11:38:13 <mroman_> @type (:=)
11:38:14 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘:=’
11:38:14 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
11:38:14 <lambdabot> ‘:+’ (imported from Data.Complex),
11:38:21 <mroman_> @type (=:)
11:38:22 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘=:’
11:38:22 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘==’ (imported from Data.Eq)
11:39:00 <mroman_> fizzie: it's pretty uniform @nextInt
11:42:24 <mroman_> > 1/0.8646
11:42:25 <lambdabot> 1.1566042100393246
11:43:18 <mroman_> > 128.0/4096.0
11:43:19 <lambdabot> 3.125e-2
11:43:27 <mroman_> that should be pretty uniform
11:43:38 <mroman_> most occurences over 4096*2 numbers is 882
11:43:47 <mroman_> and least occurences is 754
11:44:04 <mroman_> (i.e. the most common number occuers 882 and the least common number occures 754 times)
11:44:13 <mroman_> *occurs
11:44:29 <mroman_> > (128.0/4096.0)*100.0
11:44:31 <lambdabot> 3.125
11:44:43 <oerjan> theoretically you can calculate how much variation there _should_ be. (and complain if there's too little.)
11:45:38 <oerjan> because it would be just as suspicious if all numbers were _exactly_ the same number of times.
11:45:54 <mroman_> true
11:46:23 <mroman_> Measuring randomness is hard
11:46:36 <mroman_> and probably bound by Mr. Halting Problem
11:48:33 <mroman_> 3, 9, 27, 81, 243, 729 for example complies to the distribution restriction
11:48:47 <mroman_> (numbers are more or less equally distributed)
11:48:52 <mroman_> but it's obviously not random
11:49:24 <mroman_> I use additional rotation/diff and rotation/factor methods
11:49:24 <oerjan> well there is an unproved conjecture that you can generate in polynomial time a PRNG that cannot be distinguished from a true one in polynomial time.
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11:50:06 <mroman_> (i.e. I rotate the sequence and calculate the diff to the original sequence, then watch out for subsequences of equal numbers)
11:51:56 <mroman_> > maximum . map (length) . group $ zipWith (-) [1,2,3,1,2,3] [2,3,1,2,3,1]
11:51:57 <lambdabot> 2
11:52:00 <mroman_> like that
11:52:18 <mroman_> if this yields a too large number I reject it
11:52:41 <mroman_> (although I take the maximum of all rotations of the original sequence)
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11:54:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Feuermonster]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40435&oldid=40337 * Feuermonster * (+142) /* Others */ (Number challenges)
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13:01:59 <fizzie> "3GPP listening tests conducted in August are continuing with a categorization phase of the upcoming audio codec. Finnish has been selected as a part of the tests --"
13:02:22 <fizzie> Ooh, we're having Influence over Things.
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13:02:45 <fizzie> It's for the audio codec for "5G" networks.
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13:15:38 <Jafet> Makes sense, that's where these things are first deployed.
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13:36:58 <AnotherTest> Hi.
13:37:27 <AnotherTest> How would you call a product of two primes p and q with gcd(p - 1, q - 1) = 2?
13:37:41 <AnotherTest> (this includes eg. all sophie germain primes)
13:37:59 <AnotherTest> (products of them...)
13:41:06 <int-e> So the non-zero squares form a cyclic group under multiplication modulo pq. Maybe a name could be derived from that.
13:45:06 <AnotherTest> int-e: yeah.
13:45:21 <AnotherTest> Any suggestions? Anything that already exists (even better)?
13:56:50 <int-e> I have no clue whether there's a name for it. I'm tempted to call the numbers semicyclic, alluding to the fact that the multiplicative group modulo pq is a direct product of C_2 and a cyclic group, but I'm not convinced that this name is actually good.
13:59:09 <int-e> Oh and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a name for this; the concept looks interesting enough to have one.
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14:06:01 <AnotherTest> int-e: do you know about research/books/... on this type of numbers?
14:13:31 <int-e> Sorry, no.
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16:34:39 <J_Arcane2> http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/09/11/hack-n-slash-review/
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17:01:55 <mroman_> Is there a list of primes that can be expressed as the sum of two consecutive primes?
17:09:21 <fizzie> Are there any others than 5? Discounting 2, all primes are odd, and the sum of two of them is even and not a prime.
17:12:46 <fizzie> The sequence of sums of 2 successive primes is A001043.
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18:11:59 <TieSoul> so I'm rewriting my Befunge-98 interpreter
18:12:01 <TieSoul> again
18:12:02 <TieSoul> :P
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19:31:12 <fizzie> Incidentally, is this "piles of trash bags on the pavement" a Britain-wide thing, or just a London-specific thing?
19:38:17 <ais523> fizzie: it's Britain-wide but only on specific days of the week
19:38:43 <fizzie> It was smelly.
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19:39:49 <ais523> [20:38] <ais523> fizzie: it's Britain-wide but only on specific days of the week
19:39:51 <ais523> [20:38] <ais523> the policy is, we have to put the trash bags onto the pavement (=sidewalk) early on certain days
19:39:52 <ais523> [20:38] <ais523> then the council send around lorries to collect them
19:39:53 <ais523> [20:38] <ais523> it's the normal method of waste disposal
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19:39:55 <ais523> [20:38] <ais523> putting them out too early gets you in serious trouble
19:40:16 <ais523> fizzie: does it work differently in Finland, btw?
19:43:01 <fizzie> Yes, every building has a box. Or, these days, a whole lot of separate color-coded boxes for different types of waste.
19:44:15 <ais523> that's how recyclable waste works in the UKp
19:44:35 <fizzie> Outside the most urban areas, quite often something shed-like on the back/frontyard.
19:45:00 <fizzie> http://www.vaasalaisia.info/uploads/roskikset.jpg <- typical example, looks quite a lot like our particular shed.
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19:46:24 <fizzie> This is a 50-apartments-or-so building, and I think we have three big-ish "landfill waste" boxes, a big paper recycling one, a big cardboard/milk-carton recycling one, two small compostable bio-waste boxes, a small box for glass and a small box for metal.
19:48:33 <fizzie> With different collection frequencies for the different kinds.
19:48:42 <olsner> we have a system with colored bags for bio-waste that you throw with normal waste and it all gets sorted out at the wherever-the-garbage-goes place
19:49:26 <fizzie> Actual home owners don't typically sort all that much, since I think the collection service gets more expensive the fancier you get.
19:49:33 <fizzie> Though it could be they've passed more regulations about that.
19:49:51 <fizzie> I know we had to get rid of one of the big boxes to fit the glass and metal containers in the garbage shed.
19:50:17 <fizzie> But that might easily be a rule that only applies when the number of people living somewhere passes a threshold.
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19:52:01 <fizzie> And we don't yet have split containers for "landfill waste" and "energy waste" (stuff you can burn safely, generally), unlike a lot of places.
19:52:05 <Phantom_Hoover> ^v, are you the same ^v from #bp
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19:52:30 <fizzie> Though the sorting rules for that are much more complicated.
19:52:52 <fizzie> (I mean, you can put in plastic grades 01, 02, 04, 05 and 06, but not 03.)
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19:54:24 <^v> Phantom_Hoover, esper?
19:54:26 <^v> yes
19:54:34 <Phantom_Hoover> eeire
19:54:34 <^v> exept ^v is my bot there
19:54:38 <olsner> all waste gets processed as energy waste here, I think for district heating
19:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> uh
19:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> eerie
19:54:46 <^v> nope
19:54:51 <fizzie> olsner: They are prototyping that around hereabouts.
19:54:51 <Phantom_Hoover> ^v, wait, what does it do
19:55:00 <^v> lots of stuff
19:55:01 <fizzie> olsner: I think they were having some trouble with cat litter.
19:55:07 <^v> including a bunch of esolangs
19:55:37 <Phantom_Hoover> lol, and they thought there were no bots in the channel
19:56:51 <fizzie> Ah, here's the rules. There has to be at least the general "landfill waste" collection, and then separately compostable stuff if there are >= 10 apartments, cardboard/cartons if >= 10 (since 2014; before that, >= 20), and glass/metal if >= 20 (since 2014).
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19:57:36 <fizzie> Oh, and paper recycling, but apparently that's free-of-charge unless your place is too far out there.
19:57:43 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: i found some geometric group theory notes online which talk about 'intergers' and take about half a page just to define the span of a group
19:58:11 <Phantom_Hoover> and they define it as an intersection of subgroups or some shit
19:58:23 <olsner> I think there's one big plant here for the whole city here, so I expect it to burn everything including cat litter
19:59:58 <olsner> and apparently waste heat somehow makes the thing run worse, so they've started laying down ground heating across town to de-ice the streets in winter and to cool the return water down
20:00:12 <fizzie> Apparently it burns badly.
20:00:16 <fizzie> Cat litter, I mean.
20:00:27 <fizzie> Increases the frequency they need to clean the burninators.
20:01:01 <fizzie> So they've specified that it needs to go to a separate landfill collection, though I'm pretty sure not everyone's even aware of that.
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20:18:29 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140911-view.jpg <- a room with a view.
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20:25:07 <J_Arcane2> Heh. My Finnish class at uni was in a room like that.
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20:25:49 <Melvar> Lessee here … yellow lid: recyclable packaging; brown lid: compostable / organic waste; blue lid: paper and cardboard; black/grey lid: what’s left.
20:27:40 <Melvar> Glass you bring to a container somewhere in the wider neighborhood, separated by color.
20:28:01 <fizzie> Grey box for unsorted waste, brown for compostable/organic, green for paper, blue for cardboard/cartons, I forget what color exactly the metal/glass boxes are.
20:28:36 * Melvar ← in Germany, btw.
20:28:58 <fizzie> We used to have per-city-district "clear glass" and "colored glass" collection points, but I'm not sure if those still exist now that the per-building collection is more common.
20:29:41 <fizzie> J_Arcane2: This was a hotel room, but kind of a last-minute reservation, so it's perhaps not the one they book first.
20:30:06 <J_Arcane2> Ahh, yeah. That can happen.
20:34:43 <fizzie> I think our bottle recycling deposits are relatively large (€0.10 for .33l bottles, €0.15 for cans, €0.20 for 0.5l bottles and 0.40€ for the 1.5l/2l ones), and we get quite a lot of them back.
20:35:05 <fizzie> "Glass bottles have almost 100% recycling and are refilled 33 times on average. Aluminium cans have a recycling rate of about 94% and PET bottles 92% (2010), deemed to be top statistics internationally." -Wikipedia, "Container deposit legislation".
20:35:35 <myname> Brompton World Championship 2009: http://youtu.be/U-grD3srTe4 not sure if brilliant or crazy
20:36:26 <ais523> fizzie: we're not allowed to put glass in general waste
20:36:39 <ais523> I think because they don't want the waste handling lorries to have to cope with broken glass
20:37:10 <fizzie> (#esoteric - it's all about waste management now.)
20:39:34 <ais523> clearly we have to make this into an esolang
20:41:10 <fizzie> By the rule 34 analogue for brainfuck derivatives, there's a garbage-themed one already.
20:42:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: ICFP 2007 has one or two esolangs in it (depending on how you count) and had a garbage-themed back story: http://save-endo.cs.uu.nl/
20:43:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: about the garbage-themed back story: http://johanjeuring.blogspot.hu/2007/07/emorphency.html
20:45:40 <fizzie> It's no brainfuck derivative, but it'll do.
20:45:53 <b_jonas> yep, definitely not a BF-derivative
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20:59:14 <zzo38> But what is the rule forty-two analogue for brainfuck derivatives?
20:59:50 <b_jonas> is there a rule 42 analogue about rule 42 analogues?
21:00:22 <ais523> what is rule 42, anyway?
21:01:12 <b_jonas> ais523: rule 34 probably
21:01:30 <ais523> b_jonas: according to the list on TV Tropes, rule 42 is "nothing is sacred"
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21:06:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40436 * * (+4933) Created page with "The Clem language ---- Clem is a stack based programming language with first-class functions. The best way to learn Clem is to run the `clem` interpreter in interactive mode,..."
21:11:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40437&oldid=40436 * * (+115)
21:14:08 <J_Arcane2> aww, are there no Lovecraftian esolangs?
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21:16:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40438&oldid=40437 * * (+39)
21:16:48 <coppro> J_Arcane2: you should make one
21:16:55 <J_Arcane2> I should.
21:17:04 <J_Arcane2> Maybe that could be my first toy Common Lisp project.
21:17:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40439&oldid=40438 * * (+1)
21:18:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40440&oldid=40439 * * (+1)
21:18:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40441&oldid=40440 * * (+8)
21:19:06 <J_Arcane2> though I still kinda want to do a Finnish programming language. :D
21:19:29 <J_Arcane2> Would be a good excuse to merge my language and programming studies.
21:23:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40442&oldid=40361 * * (+11)
21:25:25 <J_Arcane2> Heh. Although, if I really wanted to practice macroing zzo38's Peyo would be a fun one.
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21:26:46 <zzo38> I thought rule forty-two is all persons more than a mile high must leave the court
21:27:21 <zzo38> Do you know a cheat code for Pokemon Card GB2 to allow to request a rematch against any NPC in the game?
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21:56:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Imaginer1]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40443&oldid=40387 * Imaginer1 * (+14)
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22:06:11 <b_jonas> apart from scheme and ruby, what languages use question marks and/or excalmation points as part of symbols to conventionally mark predicates and in-place functions? I'd especially like to know
22:06:29 <b_jonas> whether any older languages do that and where scheme and ruby had inherited this notation from.
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22:07:42 <J_Arcane2> Basic has a ? shortcut for PRINT. But I suspect that's not what you mean.
22:08:13 <zzo38> Z-machine assembly language uses question marks for some (but not all) predicate functions.
22:08:20 <fizzie> I've seen the ! somewhere else.
22:08:21 <b_jonas> J_Arcane2: yes, I'm specifically asking for the same usage as in scheme
22:08:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: I see
22:08:32 <b_jonas> I didn't know that
22:08:37 <zzo38> I don't know the reason why not all of them do.
22:08:55 <J_Arcane2> b_jonas: Does this count? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%3F:
22:09:04 <b_jonas> do you happen to know if smalltalk has these?
22:09:35 <b_jonas> J_Arcane2: no. I've specifically said "part of symbols"!
22:09:51 <J_Arcane2> Then I think there's nil.
22:10:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: meh, ruby and scheme are inconsistent in using them as well
22:10:22 <b_jonas> especially ruby
22:10:30 <mauris> logo or something?
22:10:50 <b_jonas> I don't know much about logo
22:11:01 <Bike> b_jonas: from what i remember of very old lisp code, i think the ? convention started with scheme
22:11:04 <fizzie> b_jonas: Julia does the !, I think. But not a source of anything.
22:11:11 <Bike> i don't think even maclisp did it
22:11:21 <fizzie> LISP used 'P' instead.
22:11:25 <J_Arcane2> Actually, I think some PILOT variants used a ? for certain conditionals.
22:11:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, and I think some languages use x or -x instead of the exclamation mark
22:11:56 <J_Arcane2> Y? or somesuch like that following the choice statement.
22:12:00 <Bike> and maclisp was what scheme was implemented in, so
22:12:35 <Bike> http://maclisp.info/pitmanual/symbol.html#SYMBOLP yep yep.
22:12:38 <b_jonas> (I'm quite sure BANCStar doesn't use this convention)
22:13:29 <b_jonas> vim uses ! in the name of some ex commands, but I don't think it ever means in place
22:17:42 <fizzie> Logo does both P and ? styles, but that's just the LISP genes talking: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/v1ch4/predic.html
22:17:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40444&oldid=40441 * * (+626)
22:18:10 <Bike> logo postdates scheme, right?
22:18:33 <J_Arcane2> fizzie: You know until it was pointed out to me v. recently I never had any idea there was a connection between Logo and Lisp.
22:18:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40445&oldid=40444 * * (+30)
22:20:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40446&oldid=40445 * * (-2) Cleaning up formatting
22:20:28 <oerjan> b_jonas: mostly it seems to mean "overrule some kind of protection"
22:21:05 <J_Arcane2> sleep now
22:22:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40447&oldid=40446 * * (+5)
22:23:30 <oerjan> also some of those commands definitely _are_ "in place", but it's not really the ! which denotes it
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22:52:15 <elliott> b_jonas: ruby and scheme use them differently
22:52:29 <elliott> though ruby is a bit inconsistent, it's true
22:53:11 <b_jonas> elliott: yes, ruby is probably more inconsistent than scheme
22:53:18 <b_jonas> in using these
22:53:41 <elliott> b_jonas: in ruby it's something like, .x! is the in-place version of .x
22:53:47 <elliott> rather than being used for just anything tha tmutates
22:53:59 <b_jonas> I for one don't really like these punctuation
22:54:01 <elliott> but sometimes there's .x! without .x, I guess when it's not obvious that it would be doing something in-place
22:54:05 <b_jonas> elliott: yep
22:54:15 <elliott> whereas in scheme everything that mutates gets a !, more or less
22:54:20 <elliott> (though not all IO...)
22:54:38 <elliott> it seems like all hungarian notation: just a really weak type system
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