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00:22:38 <oerjan> @hoogle (a -> b -> b) -> a -> Int -> [b] -> (a, [b])
00:23:51 <boily> hellørjan. what for is to do so?
00:25:04 <oerjan> :t \f x n -> first (foldl' f x) . splitAt n
00:25:05 <lambdabot> (c -> a -> c) -> c -> Int -> [a] -> (c, [a])
00:25:36 <oerjan> it's the type of that, which is a function which can be done more optimized by _not_ using splitAt
00:26:51 <Jafet> It's not that much less optimized.
00:26:52 <oerjan> @hoogle (a -> b -> a) -> a -> Int -> [b] -> (a, [b])
00:27:10 <oerjan> Jafet: it leaks memory if n is large
00:28:01 <oerjan> while it can actually be done in constant memory by explicit recursion
00:28:27 <Jafet> Well, don't use the snd first.
00:29:52 <oerjan> i got the idea from this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/25961869/improving-performance-on-chunked-lists
00:31:18 <Jafet> :t \(a, b) -> (a, seq a b)
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01:05:59 <Sgeo> "Yes, hardcore developers laugh when the monks of the Spider Clan speaking about “programming” in HTML, JSTL, CSS, or Javascript. Until the customer decides that the application’s home page absolutely must have dancing translucent pigs follow the mouse cursor in IE 5.5."
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01:59:40 <Sgeo> http://thecodelesscode.com/case/30
02:00:05 <Sgeo> I'm not sure I get it. Is the one-byte integer signed?... yeah, that has to be it, I think
02:00:07 <Sgeo> Also with the cups
02:00:29 <Sgeo> And I don't get the broom at all
02:22:32 <zzo38> To sign extend a 6-bit number in 6502 assembly code, is this a good way? ASL A : ASL A : ANC #255 : ARR #255 : ROR A
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02:27:12 <Sgeo> I'm beginning to appreciate Racket more and more, although it's not as batteries included as it claims
02:27:30 <Sgeo> No good story for client-side cookie handling, for one
02:31:15 <zzo38> Is there better way to sign-extend 6-bits?
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03:08:18 <tromp> in Cl i'd do a&=63; a-=a&32
03:09:02 <tromp> when a is of type char
03:09:22 <tromp> well, does't matter; works same for larger types
03:12:16 <tromp> you can do it even faster
03:16:51 <tromp> you need a -= (a&-32) + (a&32)
03:28:45 <zzo38> That isn't a 6502 code though
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05:23:23 <Sgeo> ahaha http://thecodelesscode.com/case/104
05:28:16 <Sgeo> Is this me? http://thecodelesscode.com/case/107
05:30:28 <fizzie> Sgeo: I guess the cups are a reference to a signed integer; the commentary makes them sound like positional binary digits, and the last one is different. Based on the poem, maybe the broom is about the same thing: the signedness is not inherent to having 8 bits, much like sweeping dust is not inherent to a thing that looks like a broom.
05:37:56 <fizzie> "For the security of your account, we are poised to open a query. Kindly click on the link: [obvious non-obscured phishing link], for good security practice."
05:44:37 <J_Arcane> Sgeo: I am far too 'young' as a programmer to see myself in case 107, and yet ...
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06:04:25 <zzo38> Someone watches the television show, but now since every channel has the same man on it, they try to put in a DVD and watch that; but, he secretly replaced the DVD with a recording of himself, having a conversation with the viewer; he anticipated all of the questions and timing so he can answer them...
06:04:33 <zzo38> And then, the viewer decides to rewind it a bit due to being confused and wants to figure it out, but this was also anticipated, and all of the things he says are suitable for the new questions too (even though it is in fact all the same things)...
06:05:53 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of things?
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06:10:25 <Sgeo> The puns, they burn
06:10:26 <Sgeo> http://thecodelesscode.com/case/128
06:19:27 <fizzie> 128 reminds me of the BLIT story.
06:26:01 <J_Arcane> " When the real meets the imaginary, their product is always complex." XD
06:28:23 <Sgeo> I completely misinterpreted http://thecodelesscode.com/case/136 the first time I read it
06:28:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: doesn't 6502 have like cheap jumps? could you do something like, AND #$3F; CMP #$20; BCC t; IOR #$C0; t:;
06:28:48 <Sgeo> I parsed '“To share important news,” said Zjing. “While observing the party, I discovered a form of communication that cannot be transmitted over IP sockets.”' as meaning some kind of disaster because a new protocol would need to be used which isn't widely supported
06:29:11 <b_jonas> though what you said might be shorter
06:30:43 <zzo38> b_jonas: Shorter by one byte, yes. (Also it is called ORA rather than IOR)
06:31:23 <zzo38> Yours is a bit faster though.
06:31:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WinnieTFCfszeh * New user account
06:32:47 <AndoDaan> Two new users in as many days. We're in an Eso rennaisance.
06:33:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: can you just shift left twice then rotate right twice?
06:34:48 <zzo38> Rotate right will rotate through the carry flag.
06:36:03 <zzo38> So, it doesn't work.
06:37:24 <b_jonas> so how about (shift left twice, clear carry, rotate right, clear carry, rotate right); or else (shift left twice, rotate right twice, and)?
06:37:32 <b_jonas> wouldn't that still come out shorter but probably slower?
06:37:47 <b_jonas> I've no idea how shifts and rotates work in the 6502
06:38:35 <zzo38> The ASL and LSR command shift in a cleared bit and puts shifted out bit into the carry flag. ROL and ROR act similar except that the shifted in bit is the old carry flag.
06:39:19 <b_jonas> there's an LSR? that's even simpler then
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06:41:31 <zzo38> Also ARR acts like AND followed by ROR A, but then it sets the carry flag to bit6 of the result.
06:41:45 <zzo38> ANC is AND and then copy the high bit (bit7) of the result into the carry flag.
06:42:05 <zzo38> ALR is like AND immediate followed by LSR A.
06:42:15 <b_jonas> isn't one of those right shift instructions unreliable and undocumented?
06:42:32 <b_jonas> I totally thought the 6502 doesn't have a sane right shift
06:42:35 <zzo38> All are unofficial, but they are all reliable.
06:42:56 <b_jonas> I thought at least one was undocumented because it's unreliable
06:43:16 <zzo38> There are unreliable instructions too, but these aren't them.
06:43:17 <b_jonas> as in, it was planned to work originally, but didn't work well, so they just made it undocumented
06:47:31 <zzo38> So both of these two ways my and your can help in some ways; one shorter, one faster (in both cases not by much), but maybe there is an even better way; let's see! I can try to think of it too.
06:48:11 <b_jonas> it's funny, I'm used to thinking of modern cpus, where shift/rotates are still expensive, but jumps are also often expensive
06:48:46 <b_jonas> but of course x86 have nice ways to avoid jumps
06:49:07 <zzo38> Well, in 6502, shift/rotates of the accumulator are fast, but when acting on memory they are slow. Jumps in 6502 are 3 or 4 cycles, or 2 if the branch is not taken.
06:52:41 <zzo38> For some reason I didn't think of the code you posted, because I looked at Infocom's code which is similar but has a lot of junk added to it, and I inadvertently rejected it...
06:55:11 <zzo38> I still try to think of if there is an even better one though.
06:56:42 <zzo38> It is a size/speed trade, I suppose.
06:56:58 <b_jonas> dunno, I was thinking of *(ASL; ASL; CMP #$80; ROR; CMP #$80; ROR) only I think that doesn't work because the carry flag is the complement of what we want
06:58:34 <zzo38> Unlike Z80, 6502 doesn't have a "complement carry flag" instruction.
06:59:01 <b_jonas> technically if you have a lot of memory, you could use a lookup table like TAX; LDA lookup,X;
06:59:11 <zzo38> But as it happens, in the case I am using it happens to be in both the X and A registers already.
06:59:23 <b_jonas> that's fast but takes 260 bytes
06:59:41 <b_jonas> hmm wait, that's a good idea
06:59:44 <zzo38> And yes I did think of that too; I might use it, although I don't need TAX since it is already in X
07:00:14 <b_jonas> can you store a copy in X and use some instruction to get the high bit to the carry flag from X somehow?
07:00:15 <zzo38> I probably do have enough ROM space, and it is also possible to make overlapping tables
07:00:24 <b_jonas> (that probably won't work)
07:01:23 <b_jonas> if you want shorter tables, AND #$3F; TAX; LDA lookup,X; that takes 64+6 bytes I think
07:02:10 <zzo38> There are some instructions that deal with both A and X registers at once, such as LAX (combining LDA and LDX), SAX (storing the bitwise AND of the values in A and X), and AXS (calculate bitwise AND of A with X, subtract an immediate ignoring the carry flag, storing the result in X).
07:03:07 <zzo38> I will probably use a full lookup table, and then change it if I run out of memory
07:04:25 <zzo38> Z-machine interpreter, this time using a new mapper I made up, which bankswitches one byte at a time
07:06:46 <b_jonas> I wonder if it's possible to do something with shifts and subtract or xor to flip bit 5
07:06:55 <zzo38> Here is a description of the mapper: http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Mapper_I
07:07:25 <zzo38> Actually, I wonder whether or not sign-extending is really even the best way to do what I am trying to do.
07:07:47 <Sgeo> Huh, so there are other Racket users here
07:08:49 <J_Arcane> Currently fighting with the old try-racket code trying to get it to run without X dependencies.
07:08:58 <Sgeo> J_Arcane: you're who I was referring to
07:09:01 <zzo38> I expect this small bank size can speed it up a lot
07:09:10 * Sgeo would like a try-racket website
07:09:54 <J_Arcane> There's code for one, but no one's hosting it anywhere, so I cashed out a $20 from my book royalties and bought a VPS and a domain. It's running now, but with issues; the picts don't work right.
07:10:06 <J_Arcane> Also I stil have to set the domain to redirect right.
07:10:20 <Sgeo> Do people use 2hdtp for images, or is there a more ... non-learner image library?
07:10:52 <zzo38> (Not only the small bank size, but also the register mirroring overlapping the Famicom's internal RAM)
07:10:55 <J_Arcane> 2htdp is mostly just some easy to use wrappers for it, is my understanding.
07:11:11 <J_Arcane> Slideshow also imports variant versions of the pict library.
07:17:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: AND #$3F; EOR #$20; CLC; ADC #$60; EOR #$80;
07:17:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's 9 bytes but is probably quite fast
07:17:54 <b_jonas> though it might not be faster than the conditional one
07:18:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: also look in this book, it might help: http://www.hackersdelight.org/
07:21:14 <zzo38> Thank you, although I think I might try something other than sign-extension, since I am not even sure sign extension is actually correct for what I am trying.
07:24:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: is it possible to write that in such a way that the CLC is redundant because the carry flag just happens to be clear from previous instructions?
07:26:27 <zzo38> That last example, yes; use ANC instead of AND.
07:28:05 <J_Arcane> The DNS is propogating now, but I still have to change the default port and make sure my firewall isn't blasting all my ports to the world.
07:28:12 <b_jonas> that's quite fast and short then
07:29:13 <zzo38> (ANC is like AND, but also copies the high bit of the result to the carry flag. Unofficial instructions are pretty strange, but useful anyways.)
07:29:30 <b_jonas> well, the conditional one is faster when the branch is not taken
07:30:50 <b_jonas> how much time does ANC imm take? 3 cycles?
07:31:04 <zzo38> Two cycles, just like AND imm.
07:31:19 <zzo38> (Also, ANC cannot use any other addressing modes than immediate)
07:31:57 <b_jonas> that makes this quite fast I think
07:35:47 <zzo38> When trying to figure out how to decrement a 16-bit number stored in variables $11 and $21 while at the same time loading the mapper registers with their new values, I came up with several things and decided on this: LDA $1021; ORA #255; DCP $1011; BNE L1; DEC $1021; L1: ...
07:36:38 <zzo38> Other things I have tried include: LAX <$11; AXS #1; STX $1011; LDA <$21; SBC #0; STA $1021 and then LDX <$11; BNE L1; DEC $1021; L1: DEX; STX $1011; BIT $1021
07:37:43 <zzo38> Which are respectively: 14 bytes, 18 cycles; 14 bytes, 16 or 21 cycles. The one I then decided on in the end is: 13 bytes, 15 or 20 cycles.
07:38:40 <zzo38> ("DCP x" acts like "DEC x" followed by "CMP x", but is as fast as "DEC x" (since it doesn't reread the value), as well as supporting more addressing modes.)
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08:23:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm a fool, the second xor is redundant
08:23:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: AND #$3F; EOR #$20; CLC; ADC #$E0;
08:24:13 <b_jonas> or equivalently, EOR #$20; ANC #$3F; ADC #$E0;
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08:33:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: and I should have known this because Hacker's Delight chapter 2-6 tells it straight: http://www.hackersdelight.org/basics2.pdf
08:34:03 <b_jonas> that's where I should have looked in first place
08:39:23 <b_jonas> (or in Knuth volume 4 of course)
08:39:44 <J_Arcane> Dammit, I hate dealing with DNS.
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08:43:25 <int-e> adorable. "note to ANC: this command performs an AND operation only, but bit 7 is put into the carry, as if the ASL/ROL would have been executed."
08:56:55 <b_jonas> int-e: bit 7 of the input or bit 7 of the result?
08:57:09 <zzo38> Bit7 of the result.
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09:31:34 <mroman_> I have hackersdelight laying right next to me :)
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10:21:08 <mroman_> wait... it doesn't have tables?
10:24:39 <fizzie> Neither does traditional Markdown, to be fair.
10:26:21 <mroman_> but since they are trying to improve it a bit
10:26:27 <mroman_> it might have been good to have tables
10:26:54 <mroman_> For me the idea behind markdown is that it is supposed to be human readable in a text-editor
10:27:03 <mroman_> but can also be easily converted to html, latex etc.
10:27:23 <mroman_> html tables aren't so much human readable imo
10:27:43 <mroman_> I think it's actually bad to allow HTML in it
10:27:54 <mroman_> you can't render html to other formats EXCEPT html neatly
10:28:14 <mroman_> it's not human readable... it's render target specifc
10:31:09 <mroman_> A line break (not in a code span or HTML tag) that is preceded by two or more spaces is parsed as a linebreak (rendered in HTML as a <br /> tag):
10:31:28 <mroman_> You can't visualy see if it's a line break or not
10:32:01 <mroman_> (notice the two spaces after the first foo)
10:34:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Object oriented thue]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40514&oldid=40511 * 4D enthusiast * (+258) /* Syntax */ clarified RHS instance numbering
10:37:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Object oriented thue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40515&oldid=40514 * 4D enthusiast * (-72) /* Syntax */ changed copying example to include explicit numbering
10:44:25 <fizzie> Yeah, I'm not a great fan of that particular syntax; but it's also just codifying existing practice.
10:48:22 <fizzie> (I think many Markdown syntax highlighting modes probably provide a visual indication for that.)
10:51:03 <sebbu> html can be rendered to pdf or stuff
10:51:18 <sebbu> but you *have* to define your page size
10:51:28 <sebbu> and what happens when it's not enough
10:53:19 <boily> pdf rendering is a nightmare. pdf rendering from html is... the experience is painful.
10:54:23 <boily> add some enterprise software to that, and a half-assed underdevelopped obscure idiosyncratic renderer with known issues...
10:54:23 <sebbu> well, if you use the good library, it already has a conversion method
10:55:05 <boily> it may be good, but I'm not touching that anymore without a trusty 10' pole.
10:55:07 <sebbu> pdf don't even support tables the same way html do
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10:55:56 <sebbu> borders & number of rows per cells are determined cell-wise, not row-wise
11:00:30 <boily> I like \LaTeX{} tables. they are artistic.
11:01:22 <fizzie> I like writing tabular stuff in MathJax, because I get to type in & for every column-separating &.
11:02:57 <boily> 'twas table, and the slithy &s...
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12:40:04 <mroman_> Can you do hostname hostname in /etc/hosts?
12:40:22 <mroman_> where alias is an "alias" for the host foo?
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12:47:44 <fizzie> Not in a conventional hosts database.
12:48:30 <fizzie> You can just do "1.2.3.4 foo alias1 alias2".
12:53:45 <ion> JSONx is an IBM® standard format to represent JSON as XML.
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13:03:30 <Jafet> I imagine there are regions of the business world where XML is the most basic medium of communication and storage.
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13:16:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * N4t45ha999 * New user account
13:17:57 <ais523> wow, I thought that username style died out decades ago
13:18:41 <Jafet> Every day, someone discovers the internet for the first time
13:19:31 <Jafet> (Or perhaps, discovers esowiki for the first time, after possibly several decades)
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13:29:45 <mroman_> Everything is XML nowadays
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13:33:50 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/OROFAWyi <- I like LISP
13:34:54 <ais523> why convert Lisp into XML?
13:35:14 <mroman_> I'd just prefer LISP-like over XML
13:35:48 <mroman_> XML looks ugly, it's harder to read for humans
13:36:10 <mroman_> <VeryLongName>...</VeryLongName> vs (veryLongName ...)
13:36:22 <mroman_> LISP-like requires less disk space .
13:36:43 <ais523> !bfjoust growth http://nethack4/esolangs/growth.bfjoust
13:36:44 <zemhill> ais523: URL fetch problems: getaddrinfo: Name or service not known
13:36:49 <ais523> !bfjoust growth http://nethack4.org/esolangs/growth.bfjoust
13:36:50 <zemhill> ais523.growth: points 18.74, score 82.35/100, rank 3/47 (change: +1)
13:37:49 <ais523> hmm, if I temporarily delete monolith and preparation, does growth win?
13:37:55 <ais523> I guess it's worth a try
13:37:59 <zemhill> ais523.monolith: points -46.00, score 0.00/100, rank 47/47 (change: -45)
13:38:07 <ais523> !bfjoust preparation <
13:38:07 <zemhill> ais523.preparation: points -45.00, score 0.00/100, rank 47/47 (change: -46)
13:38:16 <ais523> nope, space_hotel does
13:38:25 <ais523> !bfjoust preparation http://nethack4.org/esolangs/preparation.bfjoust
13:38:28 <zemhill> ais523.preparation: points 23.67, score 100.00/100, rank 1/47 (change: +46)
13:38:37 <ais523> !bfjoust monolith http://nethack4.org/esolangs/monolith.bfjoust
13:38:38 <zemhill> ais523.monolith: points 21.98, score 92.65/100, rank 2/47 (change: +45)
13:38:56 <mroman_> !bfjoust mroman.whoho (-+)*999999
13:38:57 <zemhill> mroman_.mromanwhoho: points -21.43, score 9.61/100, rank 47/47
13:39:32 <ais523> meanwhile, there's something else I've been working on, but it won't do very well
13:39:37 <ais523> it should stay on the hill pretty much forever, though
13:39:56 <mroman_> !bfjoust mroman.whoho (>+>-)*2<<<<(-+)*999999
13:39:58 <zemhill> mroman_.mromanwhoho: points -28.26, score 5.97/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
13:40:11 <ais523> !bfjoust margins http://nethack4.org/esolangs/margins.bfjoust
13:40:18 <zemhill> ais523.margins: points 0.64, score 37.61/100, rank 12/47
13:40:41 <ais523> everyone, look at http://zem.fi/bfjoust/breakdown.txt
13:41:28 <fizzie> mroman_: "-1" is easier way to type 100000 than "999999"
13:42:29 <fizzie> mroman_: And you don't need to put your name and a . in manually; in fact, the dot you add is removed.
13:43:00 <fizzie> Maybe I should really make that just reject names with "illegal" characters instead of silently modifying them.
13:43:07 <ais523> fizzie: the strategy, basically, is to win on tape length 10 and maybe 11 and 12, and draw all the others
13:43:26 <mroman_> !bfjoust whoho (>)*6(+[]<)*4>([-]>)*64
13:43:28 <zemhill> mroman_.whoho: points -34.24, score 3.40/100, rank 47/47
13:43:36 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >(+)*128<(-)*127(-+)*-1
13:43:36 <zemhill> ais523.vibration: points -12.50, score 17.47/100, rank 47/47
13:43:57 <ais523> mroman_: that's the "original" vibration program, but the strategy's too well known by now
13:44:00 <mroman_> !bfjoust whoho (>)*6(-[]<)*4>([-]>)*64
13:44:02 <zemhill> mroman_.whoho: points -36.81, score 2.68/100, rank 47/47
13:44:42 <mroman_> (That's why I've started yesterday on fungejoust)
13:44:50 <ais523> mroman_: as I said earlier to someone else, programs that work via giving the opponent a large head start tend not to do very well
13:45:32 <fizzie> mroman_: It was called "Befunge gladiators" when proposed in 1997.
13:46:39 <mroman_> !bfjoust whoho (>)*9(-<)*8([-]>)*64
13:46:40 <zemhill> mroman_.whoho: points -24.19, score 6.45/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
13:47:09 <mroman_> !bfjoust whoho (>)*9(-<+<)*4([-]>)*64
13:47:10 <zemhill> mroman_.whoho: points -22.90, score 8.08/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
13:47:11 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>(([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>))*7
13:47:11 <zemhill> AndoDaan.BeatYouMate: points -7.64, score 24.32/100, rank 40/47 (change: --)
13:47:48 <mroman_> (also it's not really befunge as of now. It's just a 2D programming language sofar)
13:48:07 <ais523> AndoDaan: that program beats growth, which annoys me
13:48:12 <fizzie> On the Befunge mailing list. I don't think anything ever came out of it.
13:48:29 <fizzie> "Oh, and the Warriors/Gladiators code is, for the moment, gone. I plan to get a working version of it _sometime_, but no promises about when."
13:48:39 <fizzie> The only surviving vestige is probably the cryptic "team number" field for the y Funge-98 instruction in the spec.
13:49:54 <fizzie> "Also, Befunge-97 should be a Cartinfinispheribefunge."
13:50:06 <fizzie> "For example, Klefunge is a synonym for Mobitrefunge."
13:50:10 <fizzie> Lots of talk on the taxonomy.
13:50:52 <fizzie> Regular Befunge-93 is 80,25-Cartefinitoribefunge-93 in that system.
13:51:21 <mroman_> !bfjoust whoho (>)*9(>[(-)*128])([-])*-1
13:51:22 <zemhill> mroman_.whoho: points -31.10, score 5.77/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
13:53:05 <AndoDaan> http://www.phlamethrower.co.uk/befunge/befwars.php
13:53:46 <AndoDaan> I remember seeing that. Someone made a start of befunge battling
13:54:53 <fizzie> !bfjoust simple (>)*8([>(-)*100[-]])*21 i think I got something like this out of the evolver early on
13:54:53 <zemhill> fizzie.simple: points -32.07, score 5.67/100, rank 47/47
13:55:12 <fizzie> Not exactly like that, but with a simple giant jump at the start.
13:56:01 <fizzie> Er, the > should not be inside the []s.
13:56:12 <fizzie> !bfjoust simple (>)*8(>[(-)*100[-]])*21 i think I got something like this out of the evolver early on
13:56:12 <zemhill> fizzie.simple: points -17.57, score 14.31/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
13:56:33 <fizzie> It's not much better, but it's at least not entirely absurd.
13:57:19 <ais523> fizzie: that's just fizzie_tiny, isn't it?
13:58:21 <ais523> fizzie: yes, but it seems to have fallen off the hill in the meantime
13:58:48 <fizzie> Yes. It's pretty much just that, with a .- clear and a couple of decoys.
13:59:11 <fizzie> !bfjoust tiny >(+)*4>(-)*4>+>-(>)*5([(-)*125[.-]]>)*-1 let's see out of curiosity
13:59:12 <zemhill> fizzie.tiny: points -19.55, score 12.73/100, rank 47/47
13:59:28 <fizzie> Still last, which would explain why it's no longer there.
14:01:19 <fizzie> !bfjoust tiny2 >++>-->+>-(>)*4(>[(-)*110[-]])*21
14:01:19 <zemhill> fizzie.tiny2: points -20.67, score 11.34/100, rank 47/47
14:02:42 <fizzie> !bfjoust tiny2 (>-->++)*4(>[(-)*100[-]])*21
14:02:42 <zemhill> fizzie.tiny2: points -23.40, score 9.85/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
14:06:52 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
14:07:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
14:07:18 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
14:08:12 <fizzie> !bfjoust tiny2 (>-->++)*4(>[(-[{(+[{(+)*140[-]}])%6}])%3])*21
14:08:13 <zemhill> fizzie.tiny2: points -16.83, score 15.04/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
14:09:28 -!- Guest24268 has changed nick to Zuu.
14:09:36 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host).
14:09:36 -!- Zuu has joined.
14:10:09 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>(([+++++++[-]]>)*3([+++++++[-]]>)[-------[+]]>[+++++++[-]]>[+++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[+++++++[-]]>[--------------[+]]>[+++++++[-]]>[+++++++[-]]>[++++++++++++++++[-]]>[----------[+]]>[-------[+]]>[++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[----------------[+]]>[-------------------------[+]]>[-------------[+]]>[++++++++++++++++[-]]>[++++++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[---
14:10:09 <zemhill> AndoDaan: error: parse error: starting ( without a matching )
14:10:09 <AndoDaan> -------------[+]]>[+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]]>
14:11:04 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>([+++++++[-]]>)*3([+++++++[-]]>)[-------[+]]>[+++++++[-]]>[+++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[+++++++[-]]>[--------------[+]]>[+++++++[-]]>[+++++++[-]]>[++++++++++++++++[-]]>[----------[+]]>[-------[+]]>[++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[----------------[+]]>[-------------------------[+]]>[-------------[+]]>[++++++++++++++++[-]]>[++++++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[----
14:11:04 <AndoDaan> ------------[+]]>[+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]]>[+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-]]>
14:11:04 <zemhill> AndoDaan: error: parse error: starting [ without a matching ]
14:15:53 <Melvar> It’s too long, your message is getting split up.
14:17:07 <fizzie> It's not illegal to use (+)*n to abbreviate something like +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ too.
14:17:33 <fizzie> (Also possibly makes it easier to tweak constants. Or maybe not, adding or deleting characters is pretty easy too.)
14:17:44 <AndoDaan> Ah, good. I was really worried about that...
14:18:17 <AndoDaan> Nah, I'm just trying to get a feel for the hardcode
14:22:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:22:53 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:34:13 -!- `^_^v has joined.
14:36:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40516&oldid=40496 * Imaginer1 * (+11)
14:37:54 <mroman_> There's a tape. Whereas the tape consists of pointers to lisp lists
14:37:59 <mroman_> (a program is just a list)
14:38:53 <Melvar> Much harder to say what a step is though.
14:44:36 <sebbu> fizzie, yeah, RLE compression works great on brainfuck code
14:47:26 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>([(+)*17[-]]>)*7([(-)*28[+]]>)*7
14:47:26 <zemhill> AndoDaan.BeatYouMate: points -19.62, score 13.75/100, rank 47/47 (change: -11)
14:48:19 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>([(+)*6[-]]>)*21
14:50:23 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>([(+)*17[-]]>)*21
14:50:24 <zemhill> AndoDaan.BeatYouMate: points -11.43, score 20.60/100, rank 46/47 (change: -10)
14:50:53 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>([(+)*5[-]]>)*21
14:50:53 <zemhill> AndoDaan.BeatYouMate: points -9.10, score 22.09/100, rank 46/47 (change: --)
14:51:15 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>([(+)*3[-]]>)*21
14:51:16 <zemhill> AndoDaan.BeatYouMate: points -12.74, score 18.13/100, rank 46/47 (change: --)
14:59:57 <mroman_> my 2d language is of higher priority anyway
15:00:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:00:30 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:01:22 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>(([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*1([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)([(-)*6[+]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>))*7
15:01:23 <zemhill> AndoDaan.BeatYouMate: points -6.14, score 26.78/100, rank 34/47 (change: +12)
15:01:46 <mroman_> Is it allowed to steal someones bfjoust program and tweak it .?
15:02:09 <ais523> mroman_: it's normally considered bad style to steal the entire program, but stealing ideas is fine
15:02:17 <AndoDaan> Depends on who's stealing from who.
15:02:29 <ais523> it is, however, considered legitimate to repost someone else's program that's fallen off the hill, if you credit them
15:02:29 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -34.71, score 4.14/100, rank 47/47
15:02:32 <ais523> if you're wondering how it would do nowadays
15:03:00 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -23.52, score 4.96/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:03:16 -!- shikhin has joined.
15:03:16 <ais523> !bfjoust return_of_myndzi_slowrush >(+)*22>(-)*22(>++++++>------)*1>+>->->+(>[[-(+)*22[-]]+>[+(-)*22[+]]->]+)*21
15:03:18 <zemhill> ais523.return_of_myndzi_slowrush: points -10.81, score 21.18/100, rank 47/47
15:03:22 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -29.48, score 9.00/100, rank 47/47
15:03:45 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>)*3(>[+]-)*-1
15:03:46 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -26.55, score 10.70/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:03:59 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>)*9(>[+]-)*-1
15:03:59 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -21.38, score 13.75/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:04:29 <ais523> the invention of the offset clear was revolutionary
15:04:37 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>)*9(>[+]-)*9
15:04:38 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -26.83, score 9.13/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:04:43 <ais523> oh, that reminds me, I put a new idea into growth
15:04:45 <ais523> I start with an offset clear
15:04:49 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>)*9(>[+]-)*9([-]>)*-1
15:04:50 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -23.79, score 11.66/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:04:58 <ais523> but I turn /off/ the offset after 200 cycles
15:05:06 <ais523> because at that point, it's unlikely to be useful
15:05:16 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>)*9+[](>[+]-)*-1
15:05:16 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -34.17, score 4.88/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:05:22 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>)*9-[](>[+]-)*-1
15:05:24 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -34.02, score 4.94/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:05:43 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>)*9(-)*10[](>[+]-)*-1
15:05:45 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -33.38, score 5.13/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:05:47 -!- drdanmaku has joined.
15:06:13 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>->+)*4(>[+]-)*-1
15:06:13 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -24.17, score 12.47/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:06:20 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>->-)*4(>[+]-)*-1
15:06:21 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -23.98, score 12.58/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:06:38 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>-)*9(>[+]-)*-1
15:06:39 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -24.62, score 11.94/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:06:52 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>-)*4(>)*5(>[+]-)*-1
15:06:52 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -22.50, score 13.67/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:07:02 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>->+)*2(>)*5(>[+]-)*-1
15:07:02 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -23.21, score 13.08/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:07:30 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (>-)*3(>)*6(>[+]-)*-1
15:07:31 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -23.05, score 12.88/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:07:58 <mroman_> at least my corewars programs are still on the beginner's hill .
15:08:32 <ais523> mroman_: programs like imp aren't inherently bad; however, they are what most of the hill is designed to beat
15:08:38 <AndoDaan> imp is a corewar staple too right?
15:08:48 <ais523> AndoDaan: it's part of a corewar strategy
15:08:57 <ais523> people set up imps, or imp spirals, as a distraction or last resort
15:09:21 <ais523> an imp copies itself, whereas an imp spiral is multiple programs that copy each other
15:09:26 <mroman_> mov 0,1 is "move this instruction to the next cell"
15:09:36 <ais523> spirals are useful because they'll exit if the opponent runs them
15:09:46 <mroman_> and then ip get's incremented and will execute mov 0,1 again
15:09:47 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how often core wars ends up in a draw due to the entirety of memory being full of imps
15:09:48 <AndoDaan> I never got that far in corewars.
15:10:04 <mroman_> imp is also sometimes and "end strategy"
15:10:13 <mroman_> you do your thing at if it ain't working you just imp it
15:10:23 <mroman_> because imps draw a lot and make you lose less
15:10:41 <int-e> !bfjoust oops (>-*5>+*5>-*32)*3(>[+-+.])*11
15:10:42 <zemhill> int-e.oops: points -35.90, score 3.77/100, rank 47/47
15:10:55 <int-e> !bfjoust oops (>-*5>+*5>-*32)*3(>[+])*11
15:10:56 <zemhill> int-e.oops: points -30.45, score 7.10/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:11:05 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (-)*128(>)*-1
15:11:05 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -40.12, score 1.96/100, rank 47/47
15:11:32 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp ((-)*128>)*-1
15:11:32 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -35.83, score 3.41/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:11:50 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp >((-)*128>)*-1
15:11:51 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -35.33, score 3.19/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:12:13 <int-e> !bfjoust oops (>-*5>>+*12)*3(>[+.])*11
15:12:13 <zemhill> int-e.oops: points -34.21, score 4.64/100, rank 47/47
15:12:21 <int-e> !bfjoust oops (>-*5>>+*12)*3(>[+])*11
15:12:21 <zemhill> int-e.oops: points -29.74, score 7.27/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:12:35 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -34.76, score 4.13/100, rank 47/47
15:12:43 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -26.93, score 4.49/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:13:31 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp ([]+*127[]-*129)*-1
15:13:32 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -34.76, score 4.13/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:14:05 <mroman_> shouldn't this prevent the flag from being 0?
15:14:07 <zemhill> AndoDaan.deadFish: points -46.00, score 0.00/100, rank 47/47
15:14:51 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp ([]+*9-*7+*66-*55+99-*33)*-1
15:14:52 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -34.76, score 4.13/100, rank 47/47
15:15:10 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -34.26, score 4.19/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:15:58 <mroman_> just doing ++++ all the time should prevent the flag from being 0 for two cycles?
15:16:08 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
15:16:14 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -15.67, score 13.65/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:16:20 <int-e> you: +, opponen: 0
15:16:22 <mroman_> that's pretty good actually
15:16:38 <ais523> quintopia: congrats on space_hotel, it is one of the hardest programs of all times to beat
15:16:42 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (((+)*-1)*-1)*-1
15:16:43 <zemhill> int-e: "!bfjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
15:16:44 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -15.67, score 13.65/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:16:49 <ais523> mroman_: it doesn't work against someone doing [-]
15:16:53 <int-e> !bfjoust quark +*-1
15:16:54 <zemhill> int-e.quark: points -34.76, score 4.13/100, rank 47/47
15:16:56 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (((+)*-1)*-1)([-]>)*-1
15:16:57 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -26.26, score 4.79/100, rank 47/47
15:17:06 <int-e> !bfjoust quark (+)*-1
15:17:08 <zemhill> int-e.quark: points -15.67, score 13.65/100, rank 47/47
15:17:11 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp ((((+)*-1)*-1))*-1([-]>)*-1
15:17:13 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -26.26, score 4.79/100, rank 47/47
15:17:16 <int-e> !bfjoust quark ((+)*-1)*-1
15:17:19 <zemhill> int-e.quark: points -15.67, score 13.65/100, rank 47/47
15:17:22 <ais523> because you set the flag from 255 to 0 on the opponent's ], then they keep it at 0 by running - at the same time as your +
15:17:26 <AndoDaan> Mine does surprisingly well against spacehotel.
15:17:26 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -34.76, score 4.13/100, rank 47/47
15:17:36 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -15.67, score 13.65/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:18:04 <int-e> !bfjoust quark ((-)*-1)*-1
15:18:07 <zemhill> int-e.quark: points -15.67, score 13.65/100, rank 47/47
15:18:16 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp ((+)*-1([-]>))*-1
15:18:18 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -15.67, score 13.65/100, rank 47/47
15:18:26 <int-e> !bfjoust quark ((++-+--)*-1)*-1
15:18:28 <zemhill> int-e.quark: points -21.29, score 11.13/100, rank 47/47
15:18:41 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp ((+)*-1([-]>))*128
15:18:42 <int-e> !bfjoust quark ((+.)*-1)*-1
15:18:44 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -15.67, score 13.65/100, rank 47/47
15:18:46 <zemhill> int-e.quark: points -25.21, score 4.46/100, rank 47/47
15:19:01 <int-e> (kills itself, of course)
15:19:13 <int-e> !bfjoust quark ((+.-.)*-1)*-1
15:19:14 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -7.90, score 18.01/100, rank 47/47
15:19:18 <zemhill> int-e.quark: points -14.62, score 11.80/100, rank 47/47
15:19:36 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (+>->+<<+)*-1
15:19:38 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -25.05, score 7.04/100, rank 47/47
15:19:51 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -7.90, score 18.01/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:20:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RosarioLuncefor * New user account
15:20:20 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -19.52, score 4.63/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:20:33 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp >->+(+>-<+)*-1
15:20:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Use These Tips To Begin With Facebook or twitter Advertising These days]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40517 * RosarioLuncefor * (+5276) Created page with " There's much more to Facebook marketing and advertising than only building a Fb site. If you're unfamiliar with Fb or maybe your marketing campaign hasn't viewed outcomes bu..."
15:20:38 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -20.57, score 3.93/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:20:56 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -38.90, score 2.18/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:21:13 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -34.26, score 4.19/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:21:34 <Melvar> What’s up with the ()*-1 ?
15:21:59 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>(([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*1([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*1([(-)*6[+]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*1)*7
15:22:00 <zemhill> AndoDaan.BeatYouMate: points -6.57, score 25.02/100, rank 36/47 (change: -2)
15:22:07 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -7.93, score 17.88/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:22:20 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -9.19, score 16.89/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:22:25 -!- mihow has joined.
15:22:35 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -9.19, score 16.89/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:22:44 <mroman_> that doesn't seem to be better.
15:23:16 <ion> <json:string name="ficoScore"> > 640</json:string> http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/wsdatap/v6r0m0/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.dp.xm.doc%2Fjson_jsonx.html
15:23:23 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (+>(+>-<+)<+)*-1
15:23:26 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -9.31, score 15.42/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:23:51 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp (+>(+>-<)<+)*-1
15:23:55 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -9.31, score 15.42/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:24:12 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -17.76, score 10.14/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:24:58 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp >(>->+)*4<*9(+>-<+)*-1
15:25:01 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -27.33, score 3.53/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:25:22 <ion> So cumbersome even IBM® can’t make the example XML valid.
15:25:33 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp >>>->+<<<<(+>-<+)*-1
15:25:37 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -10.19, score 14.15/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:26:03 <mroman_> so setting up decoys is bad
15:26:55 <ais523> in bad programs, setting up decoys is bad
15:27:03 <ais523> because a certain proportion of programs will just skip the first n decoys
15:27:08 <ais523> so not setting any decoys gets you free wins
15:27:15 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp ((+>-<+)(->+<-))*-1
15:27:18 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -34.76, score 4.11/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:27:25 <ais523> this consideration mostly goes away once your program can actually start winning normally
15:28:07 <ais523> the problem is, I used to be able to just give new people example programs
15:28:11 <ais523> such as this_sort_of_thing
15:28:14 <zemhill> mroman_: "!bfjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
15:28:19 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp +(127)(+>-<+)*-1
15:28:20 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -35.24, score 3.03/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:28:24 <mroman_> !bfjoust imp +(126)(+>-<+)*-1
15:28:25 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -35.24, score 3.03/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:28:31 <ais523> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing >>>>(+)*20(<(+)*90)*4(>)*8(>[(+)*20[-]])*21
15:28:32 <zemhill> ais523.this_sort_of_thing: points -12.64, score 17.70/100, rank 47/47
15:28:35 <zemhill> mroman_.imp: points -35.24, score 3.03/100, rank 47/47
15:28:38 <ais523> but they don't even make the hill nowadays
15:28:58 <ais523> the point of this_sort_of_thing was to show a really basic program, that didn't do very well due to everyone having counters for it
15:29:02 <ais523> perhaps we should make the hill larger
15:29:13 <int-e> !bfjoust oops http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/oops
15:29:18 <zemhill> int-e.oops: points -19.64, score 4.08/100, rank 47/47
15:30:39 <ais523> I can seed it with some programs that aren't very good
15:31:40 <int-e> !bfjoust oops (>-*5>>+*12)*3(>[+])*21
15:31:41 <zemhill> int-e.oops: points -23.45, score 11.67/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:31:58 <int-e> !bfjoust oops (>-*5>>+*12)*3(>[+]+++)*21
15:31:58 <zemhill> int-e.oops: points -23.31, score 11.75/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
15:35:46 <int-e> let me google that for you ... on second thought, I can't be bothered.
15:35:55 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
15:36:02 <ais523> one of the best programming games ever
15:36:13 <ais523> last year, I was worried that the game had been "solved"
15:36:19 <ais523> but I don't think that's the case any more
15:36:37 <ais523> growth uses some strategies that I'd never got to work before; margins is completely unlike anything I've ever seen before
15:37:52 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>----->++++++++)*4>(([(+)*6[-]]>)*3[(+)*6[-]]>([(+)*12[-]]>)*3<<<<<(+)*13<(-)*7>>>>>>>[(+)*6[-]]>([(-)*6[+]]>)*3[(+)*6[-]]>)*7
15:37:52 <zemhill> AndoDaan.BeatYouMate: points -6.79, score 26.14/100, rank 35/47 (change: --)
15:38:32 <ais523> AndoDaan: it's a rush that sets more decoys after a while?
15:38:48 <TieSoul> !bfjoust firstlel [>(-)*128]
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15:39:09 <TieSoul> I know that is really terrible btw
15:39:47 <int-e> you flattened the hill?
15:39:54 <ais523> TieSoul: it's basically a turtle except it sets size-128 decoys
15:40:04 <ais523> not sure why zemhill quit
15:40:11 <ais523> fizzie: zemhill is down
15:40:37 <int-e> it also runs off to the right, but I guess that really isn't so uncommon.
15:41:00 <ais523> that normally hardly matters, given that the tape length normally isn't 30
15:41:02 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>(([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*1([(-)*6[+]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)([(-)*6[+]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>))*7
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15:41:08 <ais523> and in fact, when I try to special-case tape length 30, I often get it wrong
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15:41:24 <ais523> first TieSoul runs a program and zemhill crashes
15:41:29 <ais523> then AndoDaan runs a program and AndoDaan crashes
15:41:51 <TieSoul> zem.fi/bfjoust is not working at all
15:41:53 <Jafet> You guys should try with the rubber lances
15:42:09 <Jafet> (That immediately sounded dirty.)
15:42:19 <int-e> Jafet: I guess that would hurt less than mapoles.
15:42:29 <int-e> Jafet: no it didn't.
15:42:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Use These Tips To Begin With Facebook or twitter Advertising These days]]": Spam: (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/RosarioLuncefor|RosarioLuncefor]]")
15:43:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:RosarioLuncefor]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled): spambot
15:43:33 <int-e> until the end of the unix epoch?
15:43:42 <ais523> I said 24 years, which goes past the epoch I think
15:43:49 <ais523> that's slightly more than 24 years, by a few hours
15:43:59 <ais523> perhaps it's using floating point, or something stupid like that
15:44:29 <ais523> "15:42, 22 September 2038"
15:44:39 <ais523> that doesn't include the 4:19:12
15:45:58 <ais523> there are no time zones that precise
15:46:25 <ais523> elliott_: seems the reason it got past the filter is that that sort of edit normally hits the "no newlines" filter, and the spambot has learned to prepend a newline
15:47:00 <int-e> ais523: agreed. it's odd.
15:50:43 <ais523> btw, that n4t44ha999 user is also a spambot, but it got caught in the filters
15:51:38 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>(([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*1([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)([(-)*6[+]]>)*3([(+)*7[-]]>))*7
15:52:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/4]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/4/diff/prev/31]])
15:53:59 <TieSoul> !bfjoust firstlel [>(-)*128.]
15:54:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/5]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/5/diff/prev/32]])
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15:54:57 <TieSoul> !bfjoust firstlel (>+>-)*8>+[>(-)*128.+]
15:55:38 <TieSoul> !bfjoust firstlel (>+>-)*4>+[>(-)*128.+]
15:55:57 <ais523> TieSoul: the bot is down
15:56:12 <TieSoul> just making some programs anyway
15:57:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Feuermonster]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40518 * Ais523 * (+668) notify about the userpage
15:58:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Feuermonster]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40519&oldid=40518 * Ais523 * (-31) whoops, used the wrong signature macro
16:05:19 <TieSoul> well, that program beats "simple" on every single tape length :P
16:05:21 <TieSoul> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=1544d3afb8e48ec0cbaa38ccac8d95af49af0549&r=700a65536df97b655acd5c8a6fd2fc3014b46148&t=30&p
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16:06:48 <ais523> it's basically a turtle
16:08:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JackiN18agpha * New user account
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16:16:02 <ais523> huh, apparently that user hasn't edited yet, either spam or not
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16:18:15 <AndoDaan> Is there a captcha to register?
16:19:23 <ais523> yes, but the spambots may have broken it
16:21:03 <ais523> however, despite understanding CAPTCHAs, the spambots seem incapable of understanding newlines
16:21:25 <ais523> if they eventually learn, I'll have to add new heuristics
16:21:39 <ais523> but I have a bunch of "fundamental misunderstanding of newlines" filters in place, which catch almost all the spam
16:22:56 <AndoDaan> So much that has to go on behind the scenery to keeps things clean and running.
16:23:37 <AndoDaan> Can you give me an example of newline protection?
16:24:42 <ais523> AndoDaan: one of the rules is, if you use a <br> tag but don't use a newline /anywhere/, you're considered a spambot
16:26:06 <fizzie> There's approximately 500 lines of dumped information about it.
16:26:13 <ais523> I wonder why a turtle would segfault it
16:26:15 <elliott_> ais523: fyi, I no longer host the wiki :p
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16:26:20 <fizzie> "[NOTE] You may have encountered a bug in the Ruby interpreter or extension libraries. Bug reports are welcome."
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16:26:31 <ais523> wait, it's written in /Ruby/?
16:26:46 <Bike> impressive.wav
16:27:28 <fizzie> I guess I should save all this stuff to see if I can reproduce.
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16:29:36 <fizzie> It wrote in TieSoul.firstlel.bfjoust, at least. And committed it, too.
16:30:13 <fizzie> Then I guess next it would have tried to recompute scores.
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16:30:41 <fizzie> I *am* using a rather experimental matrix library there, to be honest.
16:31:00 <AndoDaan> !bfjoust BeatYouMate (>------>+++++++)*4>(([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*1([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)([(-)*6[+]]>)*3([(+)*7[-]]>))*7
16:31:00 <zemhill> AndoDaan.BeatYouMate: points -6.05, score 25.95/100, rank 34/47 (change: +2)
16:31:18 <fizzie> Also one that has nontrivial native C++ bits I compiled with distcc because the VPS did not have enough memory *or* swap to compile them locally.
16:31:54 <fizzie> (That's the kind of thing that made me yearn after NumPy, which I used in the Python version.)
16:32:38 <fizzie> In fact, it's exactly the matrix library where the segfault happened.
16:32:48 <fizzie> /home/bfjoust/.gem/ruby/1.9.1/gems/nmatrix-0.1.0.rc5/lib/nmatrix/nmatrix.rb:173: [BUG] Segmentation fault
16:34:05 <fizzie> There's a comment titled "#HACK" three lines above 173.
16:34:51 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/NAWJ cleanest library
16:35:06 <fizzie> maybe_get_noncomplex_default_value also best method name.
16:38:27 <fizzie> I'm still asking myself that.
16:39:00 <fizzie> I just somehow landed on nanoc as the static website generator of the day, and that's written in Ruby, and...
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16:42:11 <Jafet> Well, we do want the lances to have high Mohs number.
16:43:00 <fizzie> None of the "real" code is Ruby, just the IRC bot and hill maintenance glue over the 'gearlanced' tool.
16:43:23 <ais523> I find that margins is a real stress-test for interpreters
16:43:35 <ais523> luckily, juiced can run margins vs. the hill in just a couple of seconds
16:43:37 <ais523> so I can test it easily enough
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16:53:50 <fizzie> ais523: gearlanced can run the entire hill (all 1081 program pairs) in 1.7 seconds on this system.
16:54:41 <ais523> that doesn't surprise me; most pairs are pretty quick to run
16:54:49 <ais523> meanwhile, egojsout struggles even on preparation
16:55:21 <fizzie> I should rerun the statistics-visualization page I used to make on this new stuff.
16:55:32 <fizzie> Sadly, that stuff also probably won't run on the VPS.
16:55:45 <ais523> oh, so it can't be auto-updated
16:55:53 <ais523> if it doesn't require tons of memory, you could do it in a background process
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16:56:42 <fizzie> Memory use is probably the main issue. I was thinking I'd just have it run like once every hour (if the hill has changed) otherwise.
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16:59:14 <fizzie> Hm, well. The Python process has a resident size of 220 megs, that's not as bad as I feared.
16:59:25 <fizzie> (The VPS has 256 megs of memory.)
16:59:40 <ais523> how much of the memory usage could reasonably be swapped out?
17:00:29 <fizzie> I should probably just switch to a 512M DigitalOcean instance, I think the cost was approximately equal.
17:00:44 <fizzie> Whoops, I just generated statistics for "hill.yaml" too.
17:01:02 <fizzie> The statistics code assumed all files in the hill directory are brainfuck programs.
17:01:20 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/bYhf somehow I don't think it did very well.
17:01:43 <ais523> it lost in NaN cycles?
17:02:58 <fizzie> Those are from matplotlib/colorbar, so my guess is that some values were just unexpectedly constant.
17:03:24 <fizzie> The program hill.yaml is equivalent to is "---.....".
17:03:50 <ais523> that's basically nop.bfjoust with some minimal anti-turtle protection
17:06:31 <fizzie> There's still one "numpy/ma/core.py:790: RuntimeWarning: invalid value encountered in less_equal: return umath.less_equal(x, self.critical_value)" warning from the tournament-wide plots.
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17:25:27 <diginet> thought: a good programming language is defined more by what you can't do, then what you can do
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17:27:19 <ais523> diginet: I think that's a reasonable opinion
17:27:56 <diginet> ais523: my thought is that this follows from the fact that the set of working programs is much, much smaller than the set of all programs, working and non-working
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17:38:12 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/egostats/ -- misleading name, but page's updated. (Got sidetracked.)
17:38:18 <fizzie> Also that's with the traditional scoring.
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17:38:48 <fizzie> [20:38:12] <fizzie> http://zem.fi/egostats/ -- misleading name, but page's updated. (Got sidetracked.)
17:38:51 <fizzie> [20:38:18] <fizzie> Also that's with the traditional scoring.
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17:40:59 <fizzie> Funny how traditional scoring puts ais523.margins dead last, even though it has a positive amount of points, and rank #13 in the current scoring.
17:41:27 <fizzie> Normally the differences aren't quite that radical.
17:41:49 <ais523> fizzie: yes, I'm happy with the new scoring because there'd be no reason to work on programs like margins otherwise
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17:49:56 <fizzie> I think during all my renamings I've managed to mess up the programs of david_werecat; now they're called david.werecat_foo. Oh well.
17:51:37 <elliott_> surely that's not hard to fix?
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18:27:10 <J_Arcane> Neat: Gmail generates little shortcut buttons in your inbox for messages about Github issues/pulls.
18:27:41 <ais523> github /emails/ people?
18:28:01 <J_Arcane> Mine does; but only for stuff I'm watching, or for my own repos.
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18:28:26 <ais523> maybe, someday, github will actually understand git
18:32:30 <Jafet> Good for them. I, for one, don't plan to
18:34:04 <Gregor> 99% sure that understanding git is a quick way to misery.
18:34:08 <Melvar> J_Arcane: This was recently announced on the GitHub blogthingy.
18:34:25 <ais523> Gregor: have I told you about git-beautifier yet
18:34:30 <ais523> it's vaporware, in that I haven't started writing it
18:34:35 <ais523> but I think #esoteric would like the idea
18:35:01 <ais523> basically, it adds whitespace at the end of commit messages in order to make all the hash abbreviations go in order
18:35:07 <ais523> so that the commits go 1, 2, 3, etc.
18:35:33 <ais523> a hash abbreviation is 7 hex digits, this should be within the power of a modern computer to bruteforce eventually
18:35:37 <Gregor> http://hg-git.github.io/ is my git beautifier.
18:35:43 <J_Arcane> Heh. Well, I use it because at the time I started the only alternative I knew of was Sourceforge, which depresses me every time I look at it.
18:36:02 <ais523> I use it because other people use it, although I think it's badly designed in some wys
18:36:24 <Gregor> I use github by way of automatically cloning all of my Mercurial repositories from bitbucket.
18:36:37 <Gregor> I do that because people who don't know better and big companies follow github only.
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19:25:43 <ais523> Gregor: I have to use Github for work, but I avoid it for personal stuff because it's so awful
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19:26:11 <ais523> I'm always suspicious of sites that are so eager for new users that they don't even have a confirm password box on signup (and the signup page is /their homepage/)
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19:34:36 <Gregor> ais523: Heh, bitbucket's the same way.
19:34:43 <Gregor> It's a sign of the times, I think.
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19:39:01 <fizzie> Twitter's home page is very signup-biased too.
19:39:34 <Jafet> So what is the confirm password box biased for?
19:39:48 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever figured out how to e.g. search for tweets from there, without first going through some irrelevant tweet or Google.
19:40:35 <fizzie> There's just a login box and a sign-up box, and a useless top bar, a bottom navbar for company stuff, and a single highlighted tweet-with-a-photo.
19:40:56 <fizzie> If you actually open a tweet, the top bar there has search options.
19:41:08 <J_Arcane> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/cl/cl.html
19:42:55 <fizzie> Heh, reCAPTCHA. "Type the two words:" and an image of a single house number sign.
19:45:18 <Gregor> fizzie: I've been getting that a lot recently >_>
19:46:20 <ais523> Gregor: they do that when the IP has a good reputation
19:46:32 <ais523> and use it to help them figure out where the Google Street View cars are
19:46:43 <ais523> because they ran out of books to digitize, or someting
19:47:10 <fizzie> Back when it was more about book scans, you used to get non-words (maths, or non-latin alphabets, or whatnot), and I always worried over what I should fill in.
19:47:23 <fizzie> Because I didn't want to introduce a mistake in their data.
19:49:36 <fizzie> The home page -- http://www.google.com/recaptcha/ -- lists three things they do: Street View images, book scans and "high quality human labelled images are compiled into datasets that can be used to train Machine Learning systems".
19:50:45 <J_Arcane> so, recaptcha's are being used to train machines to beat recaptchas?
19:51:03 <fizzie> I don't know what that is all about, since numbers and text are the only things I've seen from there.
19:51:41 <ais523> Google benefit from spambots being able to beat every captcha but theirs
19:52:02 <Jafet> That's actually a good way to stay ahead of the curve. You do it on someone else's research money, too.
19:52:04 <ais523> I've heard a similar argument explaining why they don't care much about spam coming from gmail
19:52:31 <fizzie> I wonder what the current relative difficulty is for the audio reCAPTCHA vs. the image one.
19:53:29 <fizzie> It certainly didn't sound very difficult, but maybe they do heavier rate-limiting or something, under the assumption that it's used less, or something.
19:57:46 <fizzie> There's a "WRITE: 300- to 500-word Blog Post about Crowdsourcing and Transcription" request in Amazon Mechanical Turk.
19:57:53 <fizzie> $25 reward, 57 available.
19:58:12 <fizzie> Oh, for people who have an "In-House Blog Writer" qualification.
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20:00:01 <fizzie> I didn't know people are using that thing for stuff like that. There's also a "Write: 350-word Article About an Industry Topic or Trend" task for "Writer II"'s.
20:05:34 <ais523> I wonder how many of those are people trying to do homework, or the corporate equivalent
20:06:40 <Jafet> I can only assume there's an official ban on pornography, and not on much of anything else.
20:09:38 <Jafet> There's an "Adult Content" qualification, though
20:16:28 <J_Arcane> Heh. I read an article about MT once where the writer did the math and suggested that the average MT task pays out on the order of pennies-per-hour ...
20:26:09 <ais523> what about the average task that's actually filled?
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20:39:52 <mroman_> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/issues/51 <- In case anybody is interested in discussing the future of Burlesque
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20:45:45 <mroman_> also it might be time to rewrite the esowiki page for it :)
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21:13:48 <elliott_> fizzie: crowdsourcing a blog post about crowdsourcing is beautiful
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21:25:08 <fizzie> For the curious, the Ruby segfault happened from the line "break if (s - ps).abs.mean.to_f < 0.000001" (termination condition for the "iterated traditional" score, called when writing the JSON report), in the method 'mean', but there is not enough information in the dump to determine the exact inputs, in order to see if it happens repeatedly.
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22:44:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40520&oldid=40508 * 173.67.61.149 * (+18)
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22:51:57 <HackEgo> eddieconroy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:53:07 <AndoDaan_> "pretty" but real sweet like... purdy
22:54:29 <boily> OKAY. (in an oerjanian voice.)
22:54:47 <eddieconroy> can anybody here "see" reptiles/monsters behind humans faces out and about?
22:55:13 <boily> yes, cf. our Dear Prime Minister.
22:58:20 <oerjan> eddieconroy: i think you want the other kind of esoteric.
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22:58:40 <oerjan> see HackEgo message above
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22:59:56 <oerjan> we won't see him again, the reptiles will get him.
23:00:01 <AndoDaan> I'll always miss your zany questiona
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23:23:17 <boily> time to go get eaten by reptiles. or eat poutine, which is about the same.
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