< 1413072417 822026 :augur!~augur@ip-64-134-64-135.public.wayport.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413073277 95121 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1+["\n"] < 1413073279 183003 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [[GHC.Types.Char]]) < 1413073279 377384 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of ‘GHC.Num.+’ < 1413073282 965077 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413073286 482588 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1413073293 579077 :MBH!b01a4606@gateway/web/freenode/ip.176.26.70.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413073318 571090 :MBH!b01a4606@gateway/web/freenode/ip.176.26.70.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :HI < 1413073320 821492 :MBH!b01a4606@gateway/web/freenode/ip.176.26.70.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1413073324 297584 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph lambdabot cuts off the error message even in privmsg < 1413073331 527450 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome MBH < 1413073332 357941 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​04MBH: 07Welcome 08to 09the 02international 06hub 13for 04esoteric 07programming 08language 09design 02and 06deployment! 13For 04more 07information, 08check 09out 02our 06wiki: 13. 04(For 07the 08other 09kind 02of 06esoterica, 13try 04#esoteric 07on 08irc.dal.net.) < 1413073465 356209 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Excess Flood < 1413073493 947735 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413073577 915252 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone with a linux ghci who can test what error messages 1+["\n"] gives? < 1413073596 787496 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(7.8.3) < 1413073612 753616 :dianne!~hianne@unaffiliated/dianne PRIVMSG #esoteric ::2:2: No instance for (Num [[Char]]) arising from a use of ‘+’ In the expression: 1 + [""] In an equation for ‘it’: it = 1 + [""] < 1413073626 351788 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghci? < 1413073628 766229 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic. so this bug is not just windows. < 1413073633 2573 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can confirm < 1413073640 678954 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :note how there is no \n in the error message. < 1413073724 454701 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Odd < 1413073745 764681 :dianne!~hianne@unaffiliated/dianne PRIVMSG #esoteric :the error message for 1+["\n "] is also a bit strange, but in a different way < 1413073779 220963 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can still confirm < 1413073792 484862 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the []s aren't actually needed for this < 1413073833 397647 :tlvb!~Leo@46.195.24.21 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1413073845 286791 :MBH!b01a4606@gateway/web/freenode/ip.176.26.70.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If only BF had a square function like Deadfish... < 1413074063 750506 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :MBH, down that path brainfuck derivatives lie, and I fear Phantom__Hoover will have to update his blog < 1413074436 107204 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i suppose the "\n " case is not _technically_ in error < 1413074457 333124 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just uses a string gap < 1413074689 678212 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still odd, though < 1413074982 179470 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9681#ticket < 1413075031 112394 :MBH!b01a4606@gateway/web/freenode/ip.176.26.70.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FiM++ sounds so cool < 1413075109 457584 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, :) < 1413075248 20820 :MBH!b01a4606@gateway/web/freenode/ip.176.26.70.6 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1413075407 348697 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose the "\n " case might be about GHC trying to show multiline strings on multiple lines, so considered a feature. < 1413076320 655685 :augur!~augur@ip-64-134-64-135.public.wayport.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1413077428 917944 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1413077577 708837 :augur!~augur@73.163.157.101 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413077677 569698 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Help, apparently I translated the first strip of IWC into Latin < 1413077682 41349 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... don't remember doing this < 1413077854 255376 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :irregularissime < 1413077947 566747 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... looking at the translation < 1413077952 967044 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember looking up one of the words < 1413078045 642854 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Odd < 1413078053 817952 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :As you said, irregularissime < 1413079883 504044 :brandonson!~SingingBo@d50-98-172-234.bchsia.telus.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1413079950 624856 :brandonson!~SingingBo@d50-98-172-234.bchsia.telus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413080125 822689 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly < 1413080615 233895 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1413081626 342795 :augur!~augur@73.163.157.101 QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1413081855 984694 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "reborn as vocaloid" mean? This video's annotations seem intent on telling me this character is not reborn as vocaloid. < 1413082812 310922 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-178-006-014-114.178.006.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: Terminated < 1413082837 184900 :MoALTz_!~no@user-5-173-18-183.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1413082992 648307 :MoALTz!~no@user-5-173-18-183.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1413083962 934099 :MoALTz__!~no@user-5-173-18-183.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1413084122 188927 :MoALTz_!~no@user-5-173-18-183.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1413084350 822636 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: other than the obvious? < 1413084403 330195 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are vocaloids actually considered a character in and of themselves (like Gumi actually being a character's name) in some settings? < 1413084421 54119 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't seem to happen in this setting, but that's the only meaning I can ascribe to the concept < 1413084462 119595 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you haven't seen the vocaloid fandom? < 1413084485 935529 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I don't understand the question since I have no idea what the cnotext is though :p < 1413084580 781410 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Evillious Chronicles is my first interaction with the Vocaloid fandom. < 1413084602 788349 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The context is the annotation towards the end of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpl1uMEWM_g < 1413084937 581005 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*context < 1413084961 734907 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, they're treated as characters, yes; I don't know whether that answers your original question but it answers your second one < 1413085225 686187 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once ended up at a Hatsune Miku live show < 1413085230 824074 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: thank you < 1413085250 766078 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :She was having troubles with Windows Media Player < 1413085255 73047 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: afaik, the setting I'm interested in does not treat them as characters in and of themselves. But I guess people could incorrectly assume that they are < 1413085322 473320 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume the exact meaning would be more obvious if you saw the PV the note mentions. < 1413085393 8938 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1413086924 520574 :Left_Hand_6969!~roark@173-31-68-167.client.mchsi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1413086941 13085 :Left_Hand_6969!~roark@173-31-68-167.client.mchsi.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1413087185 46533 :dianne!~hianne@unaffiliated/dianne PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll hand it to them, they sure left quickly < 1413087218 607507 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :They lasted 16 whole seconds < 1413087298 218706 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the time you adopt a name like Left_Hand_6969 you're experienced enough to get the job done quickly < 1413087452 352400 :dianne!~hianne@unaffiliated/dianne PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just came and left < 1413087751 328930 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1413088105 836079 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1413090495 764755 :password2!~password@105.233.36.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413091258 76272 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1413093112 542956 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1413093577 184913 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1413094317 510346 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zcqsglrtqdeqyhlu QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1413095701 999193 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413096497 783707 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-178-006-014-114.178.006.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1413096618 293488 :Hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1413096705 330138 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1413098604 986676 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1413098622 669895 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413098665 153983 :MoALTz_!~no@user-5-173-18-183.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1413098873 788628 :MoALTz__!~no@user-5-173-18-183.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1413099406 332262 :password2_!~password@105.233.36.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413099473 360761 :password2!~password@105.233.36.245 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1413099744 630989 :password2_!~password@105.233.36.245 NICK :password2 < 1413100278 162099 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1413100467 633702 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1413101153 592337 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1413102690 334405 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413103160 346172 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm watching what I think is the wrong PV. It's subbed... really really badly < 1413103194 767653 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lu li la got turned into lapis lazuli. Also: "Boy's crimes are getting old" "You're far from me forever" "It left from this room" < 1413103211 11031 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But some of it is actually clearer than the one I've seen < 1413103374 317705 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's not that you're sins aren't tolerated"... the other translation I've seen is more "You're sins will never be forgiven, but..." < 1413103379 78202 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*your < 1413103448 216228 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1413103558 502571 :nisstyre!yourstruly@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1 < 1413103640 254908 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413104578 146375 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I personally would check against http://theevilliouschronicles.wikia.com/wiki/The_Evillious_Chronicles_Wiki 's translation < 1413105073 843823 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the vocaloids are not considered chars and the being reborn as vocaloid bit is a fan-theory contradicted by mothy's actual work. (I suggest you check out 'Irregular' and 'Waiter' on the wiki) < 1413105388 257035 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1413105576 992888 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1413105654 213428 :brandons1!~SingingBo@d50-98-172-234.bchsia.telus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413105842 630108 :brandonson!~SingingBo@d50-98-172-234.bchsia.telus.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1413106015 815811 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: I meant the PV noted as incorrect by a video that has decent-seeming translations (except 'Clockwork' instead of spring?). And yeah, I meant vocaloids as characters in most Vocaloid-based works. < 1413106044 959688 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably check the wiki more often though < 1413106088 78624 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably watch Story of Evil. re_birthday says Irregular severely sinned (I guess by helping his evil sister?), so I don't quite get how it's supposed to be a Jesus parallel < 1413106140 295862 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders about the meaning of "PV" < 1413106190 686685 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Promo Video, equivalent to Music Video < 1413106232 538010 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PV#Other < 1413106301 846090 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I tried that page but didn't get that far. Thanks. < 1413106423 593071 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep < 1413106833 404335 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1413107021 260060 :impomatic_!~digital_w@87.113.116.210 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've entered Al Zimmermann's programming contest http://azspcs.net/Contest/DelacorteNumbers < 1413107340 213988 :Bicyclidine!~Glossina@69.76.20.231 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1413107359 976144 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: In Judgement of Corruption, when Gallerian is facing the Master of the Hellish Yard, is that scene Gallerian's interpretation of the events of Muzzle of Nemesis, or did Gallerian face a similar choice twice? < 1413107418 898292 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I interpreted it as being his interpretation of muzzle of nemesis's events < 1413107446 414554 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I initially thought. < 1413107503 111560 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading the wiki made me a bit less confident though < 1413107506 187366 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should sleep < 1413108424 578119 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand the DOS console input at all. I do "dosemu -quiet -dump test.com < file.txt" where file.txt contains "12345\n67890\n", and test.com is just a cat loop using int 21h/AH=08h and int 21h/AH=02h, but what comes out is "12345\n\x1e\n" after which stdin reports that it has no more characters available, and 21/AH=08h starts to block. < 1413108602 840130 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it needs to have \r's instead of \n's in the input file. That's confuzzling. < 1413108632 864314 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also the fact that 21h/AH=08h blocks indefinitely if dosemu's stdin hits eof. < 1413108980 323251 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd need it to work for \n, though. And it's even more confusing for other inputs. E.g. "whatever\nsomethingelse\n" results in "whatever\n\x05\x14\x08" and "aa\nbbbbbb\n" returns "aa\n\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\x02\n". < 1413109004 786510 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's almost as if hitting a '\n' makes the rest of the input be interpreted as if the ctrl key was stuck on. < 1413111473 690333 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's not expected behavior < 1413111636 691997 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm "Could not open current VT." is also unexpected. < 1413111642 139958 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't DOS specify \r\n for newline? < 1413111715 671588 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1413111747 332819 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1413111792 10468 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it wants a linux VT ... not an xterm. < 1413111886 593004 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: and then I can reproduce the behavior. it's dosemu's fault, things look better inside its own X11 terminal window. < 1413111966 450878 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now it does something inside xterm as well, huh ... < 1413112013 658821 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :J_Arcane: well, the expected output is that 12345 is overwritten by 67890 < 1413112055 316568 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahh, so in this case a proper newline isn't necessarily what is wanted? < 1413112066 873693 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's having trouble with input redirection. < 1413112320 227626 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Maybe it's not a coincidence no-one ever seems to have submitted a DOS com file to any program involving multi-line input (except by embedding the output in the program). < 1413112362 780553 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I meant "dosemu -quiet -dumb" and not -dump, that's presumably not a real flag. < 1413112382 706231 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I recommend dosbox < 1413112394 385903 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hmm < 1413112395 323337 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not up to me, unfortunately; this was re anagolf. < 1413112410 780034 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if you can handily feed input to dosbox either. < 1413112416 826283 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :apropos anagolf, *evil cackle* < 1413112460 571893 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :right that won't help when the server is using dosemu < 1413112704 407684 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.189.79.210 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413112830 83130 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I saw the asteriks and obeliks score < 1413112905 998711 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, good < 1413112922 718877 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, J_Arcane: it works better with ^M instead of ^J for newlines in the input. < 1413112991 438546 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I have a DOS in bochs connectible to irc. I can bring it up if you want. It has the borland C compiler. < 1413113097 701183 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, started it up, it's in the #esoteric-blah channel, you can try it with `help < 1413113135 577927 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about dosbox, I never tried to hook that up to anything < 1413113169 178456 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, my bot proves that you can feed at least textual input to that dos in bochs, < 1413113175 69204 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get output from it < 1413113184 182704 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and reset its hard disk state quickly < 1413113203 997585 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in theory it could be used as a golf language < 1413114909 784835 :Patashu_!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1413115830 557862 :tlvb!~Leo@c-2ec3bf7d-74736162.cust.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1413116716 440220 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: "It's almost as if hitting a '\n' makes the rest of the input be interpreted as if the ctrl key was stuck on." -- that's exactly what happens; the input is translated to scancodes; \n is interpreted as Ctrl-J. But the control key is never released. < 1413116739 473510 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :V. good. < 1413116826 934003 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: interesting things happen around here: http://sourceforge.net/p/dosemu/code/ci/master/tree/src/plugin/term/keyb_slang.c#l836 < 1413116947 555437 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that won't happen in my setup with the bot, because input goes in the serial terminal instead of a keyboard < 1413116971 376062 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so of course you still need to press control-M for newlines, control-J doesn't have bad side effects < 1413117046 362193 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there's some drawbacks of course, as in some console-oriented programs won't talk through the serial terminmal) < 1413117889 783540 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the easiest workaround would be for anagolf to convert \n to \r (\r is not mapped to Ctrl-M, it's mapped to the return key without modifiers, so that works) < 1413117929 724136 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use the serial terminal instead of keyboard < 1413118008 244838 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, teebee did http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+hello+world in 59 bytes, 10 less than me < 1413118275 914489 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides that it's not very useful for golf, why does http://golf.shinh.org/ not have GAP? does it start up too slowly? < 1413119143 377360 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot use acronyms that are identical to common words hth < 1413119153 831336 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, *may not < 1413119395 686462 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tentatively concludes the most likely referent to be http://www.gap-system.org/ < 1413119557 814157 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: stop making up gnu rules < 1413119610 10415 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnu isn't a common word hth < 1413119739 161549 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, http://www.gap-system.org/ < 1413119740 974620 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> time gap4r5 < /dev/null ... real 0m7.094s with a hot FS cache < 1413119742 755267 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:15: parse error on input ‘/’ < 1413119752 84361 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should know better < 1413119755 702365 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@botsnack < 1413119755 855742 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1413119783 681732 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 seconds? it starts in like two seconds for me < 1413119813 257037 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-006-014-114.178.006.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is trying something unintended with idris’ type providers. < 1413119827 186281 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, this computer is 4 years old. < 1413119878 85573 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one as well < 1413119886 281819 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might depend on how many libraries it loads < 1413119888 481949 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/KKac < 1413119897 611493 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you carrying them upward in the snow < 1413119960 49267 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1413120002 703194 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what did sprunge do to those poor unicode characters?) < 1413120004 210771 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm running an old version of GAP though < 1413120443 957055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (undefined :: (Int,Int)) & each .~ "hi" < 1413120446 884263 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : ("hi","hi") < 1413120534 57910 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i thought sprunge gave the file raw by default, sure it wasn't your upload that converted things < 1413120578 130416 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, I used the form. I guess the browser may have mangled it. < 1413120596 937969 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have a form too? < 1413120623 771366 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/ has a link < 1413120646 790031 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I've never bothered with installing the tool < 1413120651 825210 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/ZRHA looks fine when piped from the command line < 1413120697 930440 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by "installing" I mean wrapping the curl command line into a script so I don't have to remember the details. < 1413120721 907039 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you don't need much of a tool, i just have a shell script with curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us in it < 1413120734 902107 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh heh < 1413120751 425288 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also a #!/bin/sh) < 1413120842 18189 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right, the curl command works. http://sprunge.us/NBeV < 1413120874 914224 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but why do I have to hit ^D twice to make it submit?) < 1413120903 91922 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy graphics < 1413120935 594407 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm indeed < 1413120963 539412 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :prepending cat | fixes that. < 1413120966 331232 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us # non-useless use of cat < 1413120968 901310 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh. < 1413120991 355738 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it's unix terminal canonical mode. control-D flushes, making the read return. if you've already typed characters in the line, that makes the read return those cahracters. if you just hit newline or control-d, there's no characters, so it makes read return 0, which programs interpret as an EOF. < 1413121005 961684 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: so you need to hit control-D twice to signal an EOF. < 1413121019 237407 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: this was at the beginning of the line < 1413121028 116735 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I don't know. < 1413121188 38250 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks anyway, I didn't know that. < 1413122283 915099 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I've wondered about the curl-sprunge-^D^D-even-at-beginning-of-line thing too. < 1413122301 314945 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just assumed it's some sort of curl peculiarity. < 1413122337 853486 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe curl reads twice or something? < 1413122452 942659 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-4570a006.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1413122468 509204 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you keep typing after the first ^D the rest gets into the upload < 1413122547 399634 :Hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1413122552 299892 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The curlman always reads twice. < 1413125619 989237 :boily!~alexandre@dsl-173-206-69-99.tor.primus.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1413126234 353383 :boily!~alexandre@dsl-173-206-69-99.tor.primus.ca QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2 < 1413126400 642305 :boily!~alexandre@dsl-173-206-69-99.tor.primus.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1413127033 54858 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1413127259 793999 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1413127917 623227 :boily!~alexandre@dsl-173-206-69-99.tor.primus.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1413128341 430147 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cglrkzytuxykzpqv JOIN :#esoteric < 1413128412 384847 :Hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1413128757 935592 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION found the command to make vim display character count for current visual selection. (g^G) now i can golf with multiple lines! < 1413128823 852357 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also needed to set fileformat=unix to not have it count newlines double) < 1413129021 264882 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.189.79.210 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1413129374 518078 :boily!~alexandre@dsl-173-206-69-99.tor.primus.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1413130049 602554 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1413130973 67941 :password2!~password@105.233.36.245 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1413132616 807658 :boily!~alexandre@dsl-173-206-69-99.tor.primus.ca QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2 < 1413132715 225477 :nys!~nys@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1413133273 356123 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1413133469 799042 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413133496 245946 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net NICK :Guest66576 < 1413133538 809672 :Guest66576!~sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net NICK :Sprocklem < 1413133568 211260 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net NICK :Guest70178 < 1413133673 395578 :password2!~password@105.233.36.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413133713 745867 :Guest70178!~sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net NICK :Sprocklem < 1413133722 34958 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@S010674440130be65.cg.shawcable.net QUIT :Changing host < 1413133722 206431 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1413133892 263017 :Hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1413134092 973161 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1413134187 236495 :nys!~nys@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1413134209 529104 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Woodpecker 5* 10New user account < 1413134736 200119 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The single-question CAPTCHA seems to have be working okay. < 1413134892 265654 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1413135135 68282 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1413135265 238999 :nys!~nys@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1413135442 4901 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413135501 369214 :S1!~sheldon@p4FF93B9F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1413135501 545590 :S1!~sheldon@p4FF93B9F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Client Quit < 1413136685 59228 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1413136903 505552 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1413137509 781120 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"have be working". < 1413138810 59871 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1413138928 587483 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1413139191 539877 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, improved on both Befunge and Befunge-98 pocket solutions. (Too bad it still has something like 5 days to go, so someone will surely go and one-up.) < 1413139227 62371 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :do we have a funge-98 funge-98 interpreter yet? < 1413139310 579666 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget. Possibly not? There's definitely a Befunge-93 Befunge-93, though it limits the playfield still further. < 1413139376 131598 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have this vague impression that there was also a fingerprintless "non-cheating" Funge-98 Funge-98, but I could be wrong. < 1413139383 554274 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-cheating? < 1413139483 568938 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not just loading the corresponding fingerprints to the "host" Funge-98 and (for A..Z) just executing those instructions and hoping for nothing unexpected, which would probably break for many instructions. < 1413139507 889014 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1413139510 975719 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that seems awful < 1413139539 157685 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be a proper implementation < 1413139593 407133 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to me that the funnest way to implement it would be a supercell < 1413139598 598298 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would probably be a giant supercell though < 1413139686 802638 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it would make sense (funcespace-storage-wise) to implement N-funge in (N+1)-funge. < 1413139785 820379 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that would work too < 1413139797 286038 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would be more challenging to implement directly < 1413139879 591542 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I clearly remember sketching a translation from 2D-language A to 2D-language B based on some sort of cell-grid thing, but no idea about the identities of A and B or whether that went anywhere. A != B, though. < 1413140628 552952 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, are there any compilers to befunge-98? < 1413140634 106237 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could be a neat project < 1413140680 538224 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly a llvm code gen backend, then you could compile cfunge into befunge < 1413140743 614596 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds awful < 1413140855 176671 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it would probably turn out awful, but still pretty neat < 1413140876 884977 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the http://www.mikescher.de/programs/view/BefunGen thing. < 1413140884 325850 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It generates "big Befunge-93", basically. < 1413140908 926720 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :From what? My mouse just died a couple of seconds ago, so I can't click the link < 1413140914 323798 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb, debugging the issue < 1413140941 918277 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :From a custom language it calls "TextFunge", which (AIUI) is somewhat pedestrian. < 1413140968 486066 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1413140999 906373 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and how did I forget Sponge, the Scheme-to-Befunge-98 compiler. < 1413141010 163297 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I even tried it out once. < 1413141039 850225 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither of those is terribly advanced, or make too much of an effort to generate "natural" Befunge-98 output, I think. < 1413141062 883571 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that would be tricky < 1413141081 151429 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not a well researched class of target languages as it were < 1413141101 118939 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sponge you can find at http://cubonegro.orgfree.com/sponge/sponge.html though the page tried to pop up some sort of an ad. < 1413141127 505768 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1413141150 22163 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Probably won't without scripts, I'm sure it's part of that "free web hosting area" code at the end.) < 1413141166 700134 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I posted you a golf problem < 1413141170 304487 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on anagolf < 1413141188 388086 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :27 days(!) < 1413141242 861202 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you going to use the golfed solutions for some business purpose? < 1413141245 9090 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck got into me when I wrote this old C program? it uses "template" as an identifier < 1413141255 574086 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it is still possible to buy IDE drives? < 1413141263 259705 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no. I already have a good non-golfed solution in C, which I posted < 1413141269 336806 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an old computer that might need a new drive. 2.5" < 1413141272 46258 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: CD reader or hard disk? < 1413141277 501424 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard drive for laptop < 1413141283 664688 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know some people use 'class' as an identifier specifically in order to make their C code not compilable as C++. < 1413141287 885662 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For philosophical reasons. < 1413141294 71066 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "new" also works < 1413141300 533339 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1413141309 393927 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know people did that deliberately < 1413141311 188567 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, maybe "new" is easier to shoehorn in. < 1413141321 314549 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, So don't compile it as C++? < 1413141331 66479 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well I used it unintentionally in cfunge IIRC < 1413141362 478726 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I want to submit it as a C++ solution for the golf < 1413141362 655413 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, As in, I didn't think about it until some tool or other decided to highlight that file as C++ due to the existance of "new" in the code < 1413141366 908938 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :done, I renamed the variable < 1413141387 448077 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, you should use variable names like t or such anyway to golf it < 1413141390 667221 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely < 1413141397 944174 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: sure, but this one isn't golfed < 1413141409 709369 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's my original code back when I wrote this task for non-golf purposes < 1413141418 187689 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1413141425 711344 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did submit a golfed perl code too < 1413141437 72785 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be more devious, make the code work differently even if renamed and compiled as C++ < 1413141441 263503 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 256?!fC < 1413141441 548254 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ain't nobody got time fo' dat! < 1413141444 147895 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 256?!fC < 1413141444 324521 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ain't nobody got time fo' dat! < 1413141448 350898 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 100?!fC < 1413141448 527377 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : {2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 < 1413141453 337477 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Heh. The (completely unused) Forth code in the fungot github repo gets flagged as F#, probably due to the .fs extension. < 1413141453 523297 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hence, all m are x; all m are x'; no m are x; &there4 some x are y, and some, that have not green eyes. < 1413141455 866276 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1413141458 786848 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :62 characters, it's probably possible to get it shorter < 1413141467 794706 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, hm, what sort of different behaviour would work for detecting that (except #ifdef _CPP or similar) < 1413141480 865543 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I know some possiblities < 1413141481 42856 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Did you know that you're 58.2% Perl, 28.2% F# and 13.6% Python? < 1413141481 220082 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: " no," said he. i said " my name's not tibbs." < 1413141484 709931 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 100?!fCNB < 1413141484 886456 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : {2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97} < 1413141495 884364 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, forth for what? < 1413141496 329155 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1413141503 281103 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof 'a' < 1413141509 318814 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, ah, 1 or 4? < 1413141514 359289 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a few billion other things < 1413141515 266554 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you can use sizeof('a') ; or some identifier scope tricks about struct definitions < 1413141523 427717 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1413141527 608021 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We had this discussion already, kind of. < 1413141532 527664 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should look for the logs. < 1413141534 464391 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me find that latter code (I didn't write it) < 1413141546 271269 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1413141549 683271 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I posted one way that was based on identifier mangling, and hilariously unportable. < 1413141572 140559 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also use some words as keywords in C++ and identifiers in C < 1413141588 202856 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 100?!fCNB{q?iq?d}M- < 1413141588 813389 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : {{3 4 6 8 12 14 18 20 24 30 32 38 42 44 48 54 60 62 68 72 74 80 84 90 98} {1 2 4 < 1413141598 962128 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 100?!fCNB{q?iq?d}M-\[NB < 1413141599 139385 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : {3 4 6 8 12 14 18 20 24 30 32 38 42 44 48 54 60 62 68 72 74 80 84 90 98 1 2 10 1 < 1413141606 206449 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :int vector, T, a; vector > a; < 1413141608 471024 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq 100?!fCNB{q?iq?d}M-\[>> still means bit shift in C++ < 1413141735 200995 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find that code < 1413141737 989819 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you didn't #include < 1413141754 279916 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although... there are C++ programs you can parse as C < 1413141757 375755 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, niiice < 1413141768 798595 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not in C++11 < 1413141777 486558 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: in C++11 the >> is a valid way to end a template < 1413141782 590118 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, well okay, true < 1413141789 638578 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but < :: still needs a space) < 1413141800 960897 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would <:: mean? < 1413141807 498134 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would make it an issue < 1413141817 792767 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :clang compiles it: -c { int vector = 0, T = 0, a = 0; vector > a; } template struct T {}; < 1413141823 837024 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: < to start a template or a comparision, :: to start a global identifier or namespace < 1413141834 880547 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think they're fixing this one as well in C++14 < 1413141842 356164 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so <:: will mean < :: instead of the current <: : < 1413141844 920337 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, I know, but what would <:: without a space mean < 1413141853 9521 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: <: is a C++ digraph < 1413141856 280898 :S1!~sheldon@p4FF93B9F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1413141856 458767 :S1!~sheldon@p4FF93B9F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Client Quit < 1413141857 469883 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning [ < 1413141864 249418 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh a trigraph < 1413141864 727549 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1413141867 929744 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :digraph < 1413141870 313986 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not trigraph < 1413141878 352296 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second : is a separate token and most likely a syntax error < 1413141931 560222 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-08-17#132744ais523 is the auto-one, I haven't yet found when we had the longer discussion with a couple of examples. < 1413141938 915202 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why the fuck does upgrading ubuntu break so many things? I upgraded 12.04 to 14.04 on a laptop. Just rebooted it. < 1413141968 416543 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a scope trick from Deewiant few lines later. < 1413141991 7910 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: two years of software upgrades... < 1413142014 691465 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously the proper way to write code that differs is #ifdef __cplusplus < 1413142018 423328 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: with dist-upgrade? < 1413142019 772802 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, true, but it is LTS -> LTS < 1413142031 599622 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-get dist-upgrade has caused me only troubles so far. < 1413142033 42837 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_, with the GUI thing that popped up saying "hey there is a new release" < 1413142061 591053 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't be surprised if LTS doesn't include support for moving to the next LTS < 1413142098 185814 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-03-28#042936zzo38 there's the earlier discussion. < 1413142121 218640 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would just do a clean install of Ubuntu Windows 14.04 < 1413142123 793937 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not the one with my name-mangling, and I'm sure there were more examples too. < 1413142151 223446 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :back several releases ago, I could successfully upgrade debain to the next release with dist-upgrade, it caused only very few problems < 1413142163 427812 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't done it these days, and won't do it now either < 1413142176 181884 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not because I don't trust dist-upgrade, but because I want to reinstall for other reasons < 1413142178 141706 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, this seems to have been a good grep term. < 1413142191 749116 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :My server doesn't have enough RAM for a dist-upgrade < 1413142194 798206 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(void) { printf("%d\n", 1//**/2 \n ); } works for C89-vs-C++. < 1413142195 776309 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'll not upgrade this system from lenny, but install a new squeeze, or whatever they're called < 1413142205 333247 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might later do a dist-upgrade on a different machine though < 1413142207 978155 :mroman_!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It crashes doing stuff with .ko because "out of memory" < 1413142222 549717 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only after I tested squeeze on my home computer enough to be confident it works < 1413142232 662304 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course I always recommend that you take backups before you dist-upgrade, < 1413142248 555380 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, it does (supposedly) < 1413142249 71167 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and follow the notes in the debian release notes about what to do before and after dist-upgrade < 1413142263 688209 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, also "ubuntu windows"?? < 1413142263 863584 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't just blindly run dist-upgrade < 1413142283 255417 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(void) { int i = 0; { for (int i = 1; !i; ); printf("%d\n", i); } } -- for C99 vs. pre-ISO C++. < 1413142287 810823 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, well of course I did. I mean stuff like fucking with my settings < 1413142299 479364 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, like changing default desktop environment on login < 1413142321 280871 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use xfce on that laptop, is is too old to run anything more complex < 1413142328 283092 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might even go for LXDE < 1413142329 311053 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think in C++14 you can use apostrophed integer literals to write a program that works differently from previous versions of C++ or C; this is easiest with macros < 1413142348 575812 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/UWcN is the really unportable one I wrote. < 1413142356 751946 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what did it do in pre-ISO C++? < 1413142387 811580 :thekey!~qwertyo@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413142396 537484 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "Old-fashioned" (or Microsoft for a long time, I believe) C++ had the scope of variables from the for-loop initial declarations extend to the block the for loop was in. < 1413142406 709952 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch < 1413142432 325835 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC has a flag for it, unless they've removed it already. < 1413142437 230955 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1413142467 483530 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I think it requires macros, and might require variadic macros < 1413142477 121824 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the MS side, the oldest I used for C++ was 2005, by which point it was starting to get more in line with the standard (though still far from there, especially for templates) < 1413142483 400559 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's probably not a really good way to distinguish between older stuff < 1413142493 63589 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can at least distinguish between strict c++11 and c++14 with it < 1413142503 757231 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/C_002b_002b-Dialect-Options.html "-fno-for-scope" still there. < 1413142519 913996 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1413142578 93613 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, fuck boost. Just saying < 1413142622 200156 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :At best it is an over-engineered over-complicated library for what you want to do. At worst... < 1413142645 743509 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I like some parts of boost actually < 1413142654 434233 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all parts, but you can use just some of the parts < 1413142661 696372 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some parts are unmaintained and hard to use < 1413142663 962764 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, okay sure, boot::noncopyable is hard to fuck up, I'll admit that < 1413142664 243077 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some parts are ugly < 1413142675 361935 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: actually, boost::noncopyable just got worse < 1413142679 165439 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1413142688 264573 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, But I was looking at Boost Graph recently at work. What a mess. < 1413142706 382286 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to require only a single header, boost/noncopyable.cpp, but now it pulls in lots of other internal headers as a dependency. heck if I know why. < 1413142720 614960 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hpp surely? < 1413142722 473511 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not cpp < 1413142724 295818 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, hpp < 1413142724 978655 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1413142736 872398 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I thought it was that header including a single other internal header < 1413142780 547277 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I could be wrong, but I seem to remember it used to include nothing, and now it includes a few headers < 1413142781 814621 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, anyway, I don't know of any non-trivial part of boost that is decent < 1413142801 544857 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :MPL maybe? ;P < 1413142806 706860 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I like the container library, especially its flat_map and flat_set classes < 1413142819 174066 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't looked at that, I'll admit. < 1413142821 11374 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one of course is a large library requiring lots of other headers < 1413142822 761017 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I like it < 1413142849 249976 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only they messed up the docs so large chunks are missing from the compiled docs now < 1413142854 393472 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you ahve to look at docs in older versions < 1413142855 272917 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1413142860 188634 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, That multi-index thing was useful I remember, though still a terrible mess of templates < 1413142881 207583 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, really? And no one noticed and told them? < 1413142885 891431 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should file a bug < 1413142887 87975 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: they did tell < 1413142891 701606 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's already a bug ticket < 1413142894 803871 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :And? < 1413142910 125394 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was broken in .55, haven't checked .56 < 1413142919 72364 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :was still right in .53 iirc < 1413142925 563518 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, at work we recently updated from .45 to .54 < 1413142937 73929 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean 1.55 and 1.56 and 1.53 resp < 1413142947 152657 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guessed as much < 1413142980 570652 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also used some of the other libraries mostly for replacing missing C++11 libraries from older compilers, but these days I don't need that < 1413142996 372039 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh great, now that laptop freezes whenever the screen turns off < 1413143012 495639 :LordCreepity!~davis@cpe-74-131-10-190.swo.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1413143022 293615 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a terrible bug after an ubuntu upgrade < 1413143025 648351 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but flat_map is still useful < 1413143067 621210 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I guess shared_ptr was convenient, still a lot of template bloat < 1413143088 143595 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway STL is messy too < 1413143107 785768 :LordCreepity!~davis@cpe-74-131-10-190.swo.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1413143120 109256 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course, you should choose the right tool for the right job < 1413143122 99424 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I'm not going to upgrade my other laptop to 14.04 any time soon < 1413143152 345478 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually planning to reinstall my computer soon... but soon means I've been planning it for months, and will do it when I find the time < 1413143155 394398 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1413143161 31585 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like not C++ for everything? < 1413143162 604967 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I really should do it < 1413143176 910105 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and various C++ libraries depending in what you need. some projects want boost, some don;t. < 1413143192 589051 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying C++ is for everything either, but I quite like C++ these days. < 1413143193 789324 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I recently reinstalled my desktop, since my drives died. (RAID? Hah! More like RADD) < 1413143206 901235 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope you had good backups < 1413143210 135676 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course < 1413143217 160655 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still, annoying to deal with < 1413143224 556823 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1413143226 409135 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I went GUID when I was at it anyway < 1413143238 520546 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I stayed on the same distro (debian wheezy) < 1413143239 627119 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's GUID? < 1413143250 28894 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :GUID parititon tables < 1413143251 565877 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :GPT < 1413143262 456432 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, whatever, ok. I don't so sysadmin stuff < 1413143263 88258 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I have UEFI in my desktop < 1413143268 887561 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not MBR < 1413143284 441061 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmkay < 1413143284 776239 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Succinct array of inexpensive drives < 1413143287 319862 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, you know, the replacement for BIOS? < 1413143290 560897 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1413143296 104933 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know about GUID though < 1413143314 82054 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was dimly aware that there existed partition tables other than the really old PC one, < 1413143315 567977 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, We can finally get rid of the old MBR partition table layout mess with that < 1413143325 164655 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :And use GPT (GUID Partition Table) < 1413143336 418105 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I thought they were mostly for BSD and for RAID/LVM stuff and for non-PC platforms < 1413143359 465279 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The old format has been unused for many years < 1413143361 422862 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I do LVM on top of RAID, but that has nothing to do with UEFI < 1413143362 677698 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did have the BSD stuff on my machine, but only inside an ordinary PC partition < 1413143370 583271 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, MBR? Not really < 1413143387 164191 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, obviously when I say PC, I don't mean the original PC, but with modern extensions where the CHS no longer matters < 1413143397 268339 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, My computer isn't that old. 3 years. And Windows 7 is installed on MBR still < 1413143406 523166 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :MBR/GPT and BIOS/EFI are somewhat orthogonal issues anyways. < 1413143412 369621 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I use MBR and see no reason to change right now < 1413143418 911602 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, kind of, but not fully < 1413143424 456951 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(EFI can boot just fine from MBR and BIOS can boot just fine from GPT) < 1413143434 126348 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly just Windows that conflates it. < 1413143435 942945 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, indeed, but you need GPT if you go for larger than 2 TB < 1413143443 671020 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what? really? < 1413143454 791813 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It's a hard limit in MBR partitioning. < 1413143457 591016 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? does MBR store 32 bit unsigned count of 512 byte sectors? < 1413143461 681573 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, yep, MBR can't express those bug numbers < 1413143464 541420 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes. < 1413143465 309814 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it not extended to a wider field now? < 1413143468 330905 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1413143468 813488 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, Nope < 1413143479 957676 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, you go GPT instead < 1413143489 818310 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even for some software, like eg. if the BIOS and boot loader doesn't know it but Linux does? < 1413143501 766782 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Microsoft shipped GPT with Vista, but apparently Vista didn't boot from it. < 1413143511 536974 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway apparently some BIOS check that the MBR is reasonable and thus end up refusing to boot from GPT if it looks "fishy" < 1413143527 3284 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, only from 8 < 1413143536 4617 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, nope < 1413143546 276909 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pity. I mean, technically I don't need any partition table after bootup, I can just mount unmarked partitions as size-limited loop devices in modern Linux and BSD, < 1413143550 699044 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a partition table is much safer < 1413143568 81828 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does 2T work fine? because I have a 2TB large disk < 1413143573 691068 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I didn't know it almost reached that limit < 1413143580 378986 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, that is the limit yes < 1413143585 666990 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1413143586 287102 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1413143599 393344 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to read up on this then < 1413143609 769459 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know there was no extension for MBR < 1413143610 289184 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway you can mostly just use GPT these days, as long as you don't try to boot from it with windows on a BIOS system < 1413143647 413867 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I have MBR and GPT on the same disk, with MBR listing partitions on the first 2TB? < 1413143650 912342 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a hard disk < 1413143665 636893 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I know of < 1413143684 28241 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: How weird. That's utterly improper. < 1413143684 221477 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1413143686 668752 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :GPT has a "protective MBR", which just marks the entire disk as allocated < 1413143689 663851 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :MBR is purely an OS detail. < 1413143692 3935 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yep < 1413143707 732567 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: sure, but how can it do that if the disk is more than 2TB? < 1413143708 624118 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well BIOS loads the first sector basically and executes it < 1413143725 75708 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It sets the protective MBR for 2TB instead. < 1413143727 646783 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, large hard disks are cheaper and cheaper these days, though 2TB is the usual size currently < 1413143730 652894 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1413143744 816826 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it does that, why can't I just have both on the same disk? < 1413143760 989956 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to, say, use MBR for the bios and boot loader, and GPT in Linux or BSD? < 1413143771 932315 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because there's no way to have it meet both specs easily. < 1413143777 375898 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1413143787 518573 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the BIOS only looks at the MBR if it's bad and buggy. < 1413143795 441107 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's no problem < 1413143802 631732 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :A BIOS system *should* be able to just boot from GPT without any effort. < 1413143810 605504 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bios only has to aces the partitions with the MBR system < 1413143818 18493 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it doesn't. < 1413143818 553567 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: not if I still use grub-l I think < 1413143839 461378 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess I could upgrade to grub2 or syslinux < 1413143840 194979 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway I'm fairly certain that UEFI parses GPT, no? And the parition table section of MBR < 1413143841 995492 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is the BIOS' knowledge of the disk format: the first 512 bytes go into memory and are executed. < 1413143846 595156 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I get such a large disk < 1413143849 900150 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, it has to. < 1413143866 575256 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Because UEFI actually boots from a filesystem on disk. < 1413143871 621561 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly < 1413143876 754376 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :FAT32 no less < 1413143879 462485 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah. but it's that dumb for hard disks and floppies only; boot from CDs adn network are way more complicated < 1413143880 546506 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is annoying < 1413143884 984612 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: UEFI is specd so that it can boot from an MBR partitioned filesystem though. < 1413143896 353636 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: CD boot is about that dumb actually. < 1413143896 507048 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: why is that annoying? < 1413143913 22836 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, no journalling < 1413143922 625160 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: sure, but it's just a boot partition < 1413143926 39239 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also good luck doing MDRAID on that < 1413143929 922323 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to journal a read-only partition < 1413143933 88532 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: The El Torito standard basically shoves an offset to where a filesystem image is on the CD, and the BIOS sets up the BIOS interrupts so that they point there. < 1413143938 567625 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, except during grub updates < 1413143938 758679 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then normal BIOS boot happens. < 1413143956 603621 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you mean what if your system crashes just when you rename your kernel on the boot partition? < 1413143956 961674 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how does UEFI boot from CD or USB stick work? < 1413143962 412579 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same exact way. < 1413143966 544029 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is taht why you need journaling? < 1413143973 449219 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, well yes, I my case it is grub2 on the EFI parition < 1413143977 248528 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a separate El Torito image. < 1413143982 966766 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :My kernel is still on the ext4 /boot < 1413143986 274651 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. USB stick it's a 100% normal EFI boot. < 1413143991 339850 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :CD, it's just El Torito. < 1413143995 453170 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of course it is. < 1413144000 246113 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1413144014 563483 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, use a recovery drive to reinstall grub < 1413144023 933575 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it makes it annoying to mirror the EFI partition between my disks in RAID1 < 1413144029 295283 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1413144043 10729 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :*.net *.split < 1413144045 118390 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1413144045 118518 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1413144045 118584 :SirCmpwn!~SirCmpwn@irc.sircmpwn.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1413144045 118648 :paul2520!~pi@unaffiliated/paul2520 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1413144045 118776 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1413144045 118839 :ineiros!~itniemin@hasturlovelace.cloud.tilaa.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1413144050 517042 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :For now I basically run rsync to copy that partition to the second drive < 1413144051 845912 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1413144053 812311 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1413144058 451511 :ineiros!~itniemin@hasturlovelace.cloud.tilaa.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1413144064 803256 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the bright side, it finally gives Linux a legally excusable reason to have a FAT driver. < 1413144072 485511 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1413144073 358688 :paul2520!~pi@104-6-13-61.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1413144077 293025 :SirCmpwn!~SirCmpwn@irc.sircmpwn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1413144083 892878 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wasn't legal before? < 1413144092 892302 :paul2520!~pi@104-6-13-61.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net NICK :Guest50760 < 1413144096 771787 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413144125 338360 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I for one currently have grub-l and my kernel on a fat16 partition, but I might use ext3 instead next time I do this stuff < 1413144131 260520 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft asserts patents on FAT32 (bullshit, but there it is). < 1413144143 860052 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a patent grant for implementing FAT32 for purposes of EFI though. < 1413144153 279216 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what? I do need a FAT32 driver for accessing memory cards of my mobile phone and digital cameras < 1413144159 220832 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I have them in my kernel < 1413144219 383012 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you don't have a patent license for it. < 1413144228 4557 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, My setup is a 512 MB EFI system parition (FAT32), then a 512 MB MDRAID ext4 /boot. Then the rest of the disk is an MDRAID LVM2, with a 32G / (I no longer use separate /usr) < 1413144228 828822 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, that driver is not that big anyway, though it has some ugly parts about translating filenames which could be too large < 1413144233 817372 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you don't have a patent license for it. < 1413144238 74122 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course separate /var /tmp, /home < 1413144261 866792 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: don't the manufacturers of those digital cameras and mobile phones have a license for it that I can use if I have the digital camera? < 1413144275 646278 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The license only applies to the digital camera. < 1413144277 195667 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, surely you mean exfat? < 1413144282 503323 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The digital camera has the license, you do not. < 1413144283 128988 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that has patents I know of < 1413144295 485683 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No, they also assert patents on FAT32, in particular long file names. < 1413144298 143049 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I see < 1413144308 936828 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes it's bullshit. < 1413144309 325714 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm fairly certain everyone still ships Linux with vfat < 1413144313 415386 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1413144315 982948 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :And don't care about what MS think < 1413144322 828923 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're an Android vendor. < 1413144329 983482 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :MS does shakedowns on them. < 1413144350 145118 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well I'm pretty sure my phone shipped with buggy exfat support even < 1413144366 460931 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was unusable, so I switched to fat32 < 1413144370 465530 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't need the long filenames for the digital camera, nor their sucky way of filling up all bytes of the 32 byte long directory entry in such a way that it's really hard to add a compatible extension such as for mtimes past year 2127 < 1413144377 700045 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever was the year limit < 1413144381 104554 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 2127 I think < 1413144381 542843 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1413144397 817830 :thekey!~qwertyo@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1413144406 657274 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2107 < 1413144436 160814 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I look forward to btrfs becoming stable < 1413144461 708244 :Guest50760!~pi@104-6-13-61.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net NICK :paul2520 < 1413144473 442418 :paul2520!~pi@104-6-13-61.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Changing host < 1413144473 622996 :paul2520!~pi@unaffiliated/paul2520 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413144489 227766 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it is considered mostly stable now, I believe. < 1413144524 122793 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there'll be major suckage in 2107, when all the cash registers and digital cameras will be unable to write proper mtimes and there's no easy way to extend fat to allow that < 1413144550 497880 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people will hastily try to find solutions for that a few years before, and will come up with various mutually incompatible solutions < 1413144558 456363 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :btrfs-tools is still fairly useless at this time < 1413144561 680803 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish they'd think forward more < 1413144582 740247 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: well, I mean the disk format is stable < 1413144591 124620 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you say UEFI requires this too? < 1413144593 833087 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the tools are fine for everyday use. < 1413144604 637071 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: UEFI uses a FAT-32 system partition just to store bootloaders essentially < 1413144610 936950 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(plus diagnostic tools and the like) < 1413144621 628018 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't need mtimes < 1413144632 323562 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: well sure, but mtimes would be still nice to have < 1413144643 577988 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :time for FAT-64 < 1413144651 708244 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's not that using FAT32 is required per se, it's that FAT32 is the only filesystem that a UEFI firmware is *required* to support. < 1413144653 245146 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying computers will suddenly be unbootable at that point or anything < 1413144659 382878 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, There is exfat I suppose < 1413144670 86256 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's perfectly valid for a UEFI firmware to support any number of other filesystems. < 1413144672 1962 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: right. apple's efi can read HFS+ < 1413144675 712562 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1413144688 540681 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it's a bad example, since I hear it's a jumbled incompliant specialised mix of EFI 1 and UEFI < 1413144702 156949 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: sure, but that means if you want your operating system software to work on all UEFI computers, it has to use FAT for the boot partition < 1413144702 336595 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's Apple for ya. < 1413144709 518820 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes. < 1413144720 323439 :brandons1!~SingingBo@d50-98-172-234.bchsia.telus.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1413144720 936833 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no reason to care about 2107 AD, because we'll be dead by then < 1413144725 20922 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: to be fair they deployed x86 EFI before anyone else < 1413144733 287461 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at a very wide scale < 1413144750 865209 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And strictly speaking nobody else has deployed *x86* EFI in a non-trivial scale. :) < 1413144753 326258 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ok, maybe not anyone else, but close enough) < 1413144761 755460 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, hope upon hopes, fat32 will be dead long before then < 1413144761 934931 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: but our childrens will be alive (not that I have children, but in general) < 1413144762 174965 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's pretty much all x86_64 EFI otherwise) < 1413144775 869078 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: we should hope that, yes < 1413144785 828227 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I tihnk apple was shipping 64-bit from the start too? < 1413144787 270312 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*think < 1413144789 428927 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :along with some 32-bit < 1413144798 644227 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: but if they use it not only in new cameras and cash regsiters, but also in new UEFI standards, then it will be hard to kill it < 1413144801 36820 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not < 1413144801 450827 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Yes, but their EFI implementation is 32-bit unconditionally. < 1413144817 878948 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't believe you http://www.everymac.com/mac-answers/snow-leopard-mac-os-x-faq/mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bit-macs-64-bit-efi-boot-in-64-bit-mode.html < 1413144823 743487 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.189.69.192 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413144829 879687 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, guess they changed it at some point. < 1413144832 108344 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, Actually the OS can still use something else, as long as the boot loader can be stored on FAT32 < 1413144839 644665 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember a lot of fuss many years back about 32 vs 64-bit firmware and kernel < 1413144842 363480 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Snow Leopard apparently. < 1413144843 508494 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, of course < 1413144848 951988 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't store my OS on FAT32 < 1413144856 15285 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure it's all 64 bit all the time now and all models with any amount of 32 bit in them are unsupported < 1413144860 686633 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean the kernel? < 1413144862 645144 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, yes < 1413144865 157614 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still < 1413144886 506257 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: to be fair, the kernel/initrd will probably be stored in FAT-32 a lot < 1413144892 298712 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strictly speaking the kernel doesn't have to be accessible from EFI, just some binary that eventually loads the kernel. < 1413144913 337207 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, well I went for grub.efi on FAT32 and the kernel/initramfs on ext4 < 1413144913 547038 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you don't need all the GRUB or the like machinery with UEFI, especially now that the kernel supports native UEFI booting < 1413144915 582043 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though one of the easier ways to boot Linux on EFI is just to throw EFI at the kernel) < 1413144927 79345 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can get away with a simple boot menu like gummiboot, which doesn't have any linux-specific knowledge < 1413144927 756230 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, since that is what the debian docs suggested < 1413144943 474363 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I mount the EFI parititon on /boot/efi < 1413144943 829806 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: sure, you can have any number of boot loaders between them, counting a small linux with a fs driver and kexec as a potential bootloader < 1413144948 692036 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Debian's got infrastructure for automanaging GRUB. < 1413144959 500319 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, I just would hope that lighter-weight stuff becomes more common over time, since making /boot the efi system partition is simpler and has less moving parts < 1413144961 426291 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed < 1413144979 552902 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I know. I just don't trust that. I want to manage my grub myself, and I do. < 1413144988 390171 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, well sure, but then I need to deal with the fact that my /boot doesn't behave as a proper POSIX file system with symlinks and what not < 1413144990 787672 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and since I think expecting bootloaders to be able to, like, read btrfs is a dead end < 1413144993 395822 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :And permissions < 1413145003 26115 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1413145004 403996 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sure some of them can do it but do they support compression etc.? syslinux doesn't support lzo compression on btrfs, for instance) < 1413145017 228646 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1413145023 451600 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it seems ridiculous to support these complex filesystems in the bootloader when there is a deliberately simple filesystem set aside for booting purposes already) < 1413145033 236289 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: so you put your boot loader on a FAT but your kernel on an ext or reiser fs? < 1413145044 681909 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, reiser? hell no < 1413145051 326599 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you use symlinks for your initrd? :p < 1413145057 161942 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSIX ACLs on your kernel to set who can boot it! < 1413145072 909179 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, no, but debian scripts does weird shit with the grub config < 1413145083 511455 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I agree, even if the boot loader only neads read support, and it might do some of the reading inefficiently, eg. traverse all directory entries instead of hashing the filename and descending the b-tree the right way < 1413145085 668865 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose something like deduplication could be useful in /boot. < 1413145092 779653 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for multiple kernel versions or such < 1413145096 544563 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was smart enough. < 1413145107 301673 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, anyway I *do* use mdraid for /boot < 1413145128 227524 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: even at boot time? < 1413145129 607125 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, and that metadata block is first on the parition, messing up for something like UEFI reading it < 1413145133 341883 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, what < 1413145133 557130 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right. I just don't think we should have our bootloaders be weird mini-OSes nowadays because UEFI is already a weird mini-OS < 1413145145 61004 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a good point yes < 1413145148 231609 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: as in, does the boot loader know about the raid too, or does it just read the kernel one of the mirrored copies < 1413145152 30127 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because bootloaders don't really have to be linux-specific at all these days < 1413145156 829121 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: exactly < 1413145164 695004 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like gummiboot just runs UEFI executables, because the kernel has been one itself for a while now, it's its own bootloader < 1413145201 683776 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: the kernel had been its own bootloader for a while at least if you put it on a floppy, but they dropped that part < 1413145206 519887 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is nicer than the old BIOS setup overall, even though it has a ton of cruft. < 1413145212 706201 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: heh, yeah, I remember something like that < 1413145225 925260 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1413145226 449610 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, It knows I think < 1413145257 994805 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never used that own feature, I used only lilo and loadlin and grub-l and syslinux to boot anything < 1413145263 837350 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, yep it knows, insmod raid http://sprunge.us/bJOC < 1413145278 829728 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It was fairly limited. < 1413145283 132513 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :another thing is that with secure boot you don't really want to trust a bootloader that will execute arbitrary other unsigned boot code < 1413145297 118990 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when using it to authenticate your boot) < 1413145298 729035 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC it only even worked if you dd'd it straight to floppy and compiled in command line arguments. < 1413145313 395096 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nobody wants to implement code signing stuff in a bootloader when again UEFI already handles that < 1413145314 141046 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: worse than taht actually < 1413145329 853362 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, the problem with gummiboot (which is a simple menu, much simpler than grub afaik) I read is that it doesn't work properly on all UEFI implementations < 1413145333 367719 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no command line argument, but a few bytes giving specific settings that you would normally set command line options < 1413145338 19481 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you still have to make linux do code signing for modules and some other stuff, but that's a less avoidable task) < 1413145347 71881 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: eg. a byte to set the root fs device < 1413145348 849498 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1413145359 227139 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: right... there's no real solution to that other than waiting for bad ones to get better < 1413145367 685810 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think they're a lot better than they were a few years ago these days < 1413145369 5989 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, on my specific board it is supposed to blackscreen apparently. So I didn't even try it < 1413145385 151217 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have an early UEFI < 1413145387 640868 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a little sad how UEFI exposes so many convenience APIs but they're unreliable < 1413145395 350808 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not much is going to happen with it < 1413145405 406829 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bring back open firmware? < 1413145432 984658 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, that was what the old PPC macs had right? < 1413145435 889046 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by which I mean Open Firmware < 1413145443 861370 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: many things actually < 1413145444 811368 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some sort of FORTH environment iirc < 1413145447 484299 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's common on lots of non-x86 stuff < 1413145453 128838 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally by Sun but it's an open standard, hence the name < 1413145457 944020 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, arm uses uboot iirc?= < 1413145460 34236 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=// < 1413145468 295963 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARM uses whatever the hell people feel like. < 1413145470 984027 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I mean like sparc and power and stuff < 1413145473 102431 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :arm is a mess < 1413145475 729944 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1413145481 379409 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why I'd want raid/llvm in my boot loader even if I used it in the operating system < 1413145482 590672 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :red hat are pushing for standardising on UEFI for arm < 1413145486 194244 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked into how rpi boots < 1413145491 306553 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is interesting to say the least < 1413145498 312204 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, just put the boot file system on an ordinary partition accessible without llvm or raid < 1413145499 610094 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :The GPU loads the kernel apparently < 1413145502 739446 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably better than the unstandardised mess it uses now. < 1413145503 142090 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/llvm/lvm < 1413145506 59047 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that was not a typo < 1413145506 687593 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :/g < 1413145508 367410 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I was about to say < 1413145516 558554 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :store your kernel as llvm bitcode < 1413145521 845043 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, neat! < 1413145526 767118 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "GPU" is a full CPU with some fancy firmware. < 1413145534 126168 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That happens to be well-suited for graphics. < 1413145544 727305 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ARM on it is a low-powered coprocessor. < 1413145550 865582 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: sadly bitcode isn't really portable < 1413145552 863257 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, the thing is, should one drive fail, my /boot can be mirrored back to the replacement drive < 1413145555 345708 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :No hassles < 1413145561 394393 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the point of RAID after all < 1413145565 521493 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, true < 1413145567 899933 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: UEFI does support multi-architecture stuff with a single ESP though < 1413145578 317708 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, what is ESP now again < 1413145578 739127 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Also irritating is that they're trying to get ACPI on ARM. < 1413145581 500441 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :efi system partition < 1413145584 610535 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: /boot can be mirrored anyway, only the boot loader will access only one copy < 1413145591 147311 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you had a portable bitcode sorta kernel and a few UEFI executables to compile and run it on the fly... < 1413145606 21386 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACPI is by design fairly x86-specific, and there's already a well-known solution to everything it does on ARM. < 1413145607 502070 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: right, and ARM people don't like that because they have their device tree thing? < 1413145607 655869 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and I can switch over to a second copy if the first hard drive fial < 1413145614 234200 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes, I wonder why we can't use the GPU for CPU duty on the RPi... < 1413145618 644286 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that would be neat < 1413145627 694684 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: all my info here is just from michael garrett :p < 1413145627 848232 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Yeah. Device trees are a fully-general and well engineered solution. < 1413145628 809740 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not well supported or open though < 1413145630 548901 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :er. < 1413145632 215677 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :matthew garrett < 1413145638 535161 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: doesn't linus hate them or something < 1413145641 217918 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember him whining < 1413145649 626131 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Only just that the GPU is poorly documented. < 1413145654 385850 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Yes, but he hates ACPI more. < 1413145668 71688 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, right < 1413145685 636331 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, right now I don't have any sort of mirroring or llvm or raid system, so I don't do this < 1413145687 962495 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: typical < 1413145694 290855 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what sort of GPU is it anyway... < 1413145701 253215 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if my primary hard drive failed, I'd boot from a CD and restore from backups < 1413145705 230221 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some sort of Broadcom chip. < 1413145705 383799 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the standard ARM reference one I suppose < 1413145709 762633 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ACPI does legitimately seem like the sort of huge mess that is more fuss than it is worth but it seems like we're stuck with it < 1413145711 811752 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some boot CDs ready < 1413145724 73288 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: yeah < 1413145726 652244 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, that describes a lot of the modern tech world < 1413145733 455596 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1413145734 806198 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1413145735 700541 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so true < 1413145744 338121 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, UEFI is a huge mess but I think it's probably still a net positive, for instance :P < 1413145752 802029 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1413145760 658520 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah BIOS wasn't a clean design indeed < 1413145772 447901 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :interrupts and crap < 1413145772 783951 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Design". < 1413145786 831444 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Touche < 1413145793 965367 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've become really disheartened wondering what the correct way is to, like, display some pixels on the screen or interact with some other hardware without any "legacy" stuff in 2014 and the answer goes like "well, first you have to write an ACPI bytecode interpreter" < 1413145805 961838 :nys!~nys@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :acpi < 1413145807 932144 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and put it in your kernel" < 1413145812 339236 :nys!~nys@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a Joke < 1413145828 245703 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :BIOS was somewhat sensible for the IBM PC. < 1413145838 297179 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then nobody let it die. < 1413145840 488009 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, Well shouldn't you load the proper driver too? < 1413145843 150612 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone written ACPI malware btw < 1413145854 831301 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, Where would it store itself? < 1413145860 265314 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what driver? you're writing the driver < 1413145863 366309 :password2!~password@105.233.36.245 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1413145873 791395 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some kind of firmware memory, presumably < 1413145879 318289 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1413145886 987854 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I see, the problem with the original XT BIOS is that it had a well-designed documented public API, but then everyone used the undocumented parts so every PC clone had to support those too < 1413145887 239261 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you can do a buffer overflow by crafting special invalid boot options < 1413145893 615579 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, exactly. I assume you can't just output a framebuffer in a generic way? < 1413145899 161136 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and rootkit every kernel that does ACPI < 1413145909 478510 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, but have to have separate nvidia and amd drivers < 1413145919 466531 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: And then BIOS vendors started adding random crap to it to support new things. < 1413145920 687423 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, there's like, VESA < 1413145921 919161 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :these undocumented parts include memory addresses, including odd memory addresses for two-byte words (which had no penalty on 8088) < 1413145925 935375 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, that too < 1413145930 59711 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, ah, true, forgot about that < 1413145936 701965 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, doesn't ACPI do byte code or some crap? < 1413145941 587146 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I just said that :p < 1413145954 81973 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: VESA involves bizarre 16-bit stuff in old versions and I don't know if people support the newer versions that don't? < 1413145957 315243 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a mess < 1413145965 442759 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1413145967 393281 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess s/display stuff/any other kind of hardware interaction/ since admittedly graphics are especially bad < 1413145986 695363 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was more referring to just the huge pain it is to *get* to find and talk to the hardware in a non-legacy way < 1413145993 764901 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: so, like, hard disk and cd reads? keyboard? < 1413146005 344039 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: sure < 1413146012 9746 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and serial port io < 1413146016 466320 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and network access < 1413146017 54496 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, so.. lets avoid hardware and just do software? In other words, don't write an OS < 1413146017 749773 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stuff < 1413146026 123338 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to do mouse and keyboard you have to implement USB!! < 1413146027 937310 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yaaaaay < 1413146033 47366 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mouse? who needs mouse < 1413146036 399236 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, but I still have a PS/2 port! < 1413146041 823241 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, You need to support that too < 1413146055 78452 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I use it < 1413146057 591922 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I fully "support" ripping it out < 1413146060 321095 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I MIGHT! < 1413146065 49014 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, you need to support serial, AT keyboard, PS2, and USB < 1413146076 812074 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to support AT keyboard so you can flip the A20 line < 1413146077 960879 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, the laptop next to me has a parallel port on the back. It is old admittedly < 1413146086 198022 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that another keyboard standard < 1413146095 373511 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: heh... no, you don't need that these days I think < 1413146098 898293 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, no A20 line crap, that's a nice thing about UEFI! < 1413146105 119289 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha < 1413146107 796058 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: that was needed before 386 < 1413146111 95885 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's still emulated < 1413146115 499316 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they added nicer ways to flip it off < 1413146115 652974 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: and the A20 line is not even the most important part < 1413146122 406200 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I'm fairly certain there is still an ISA bus in modern computers < 1413146128 260387 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in real mode bootloader code by default your memory is halved by repeating like that < 1413146141 668993 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, at least lm-sensors detects nct6776-isa-0290 < 1413146144 186177 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can try turning it off via a less silly BIOS call than talking to the fake keyboard controller, but on some machines that just, like, hangs < 1413146150 958756 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the more important part was that 286 couldn't switch from protected mode to real mode, so the real mode memory driver that had to access memory in protected mode asked the motherboard through the keyboard controller to reboot the cpu < 1413146151 123413 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously < 1413146160 647968 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Not an ISA bus, but some special bus that looks identical to software. < 1413146162 63398 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that hack is way worse than the A20 line < 1413146167 66841 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1413146167 220377 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.osdev.org/A20_Line < 1413146180 788049 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I still have an old computer in this room with a real ISA slot! < 1413146188 226381 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"here's three ways to do it -- the legacy way and two simpler ways. by the way, you have to try them all" < 1413146195 843011 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1413146198 116508 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also PC card, and AGP. And of course real PCI < 1413146278 87094 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at some point I used an AT slot keyboard with an AT->PS2 controller that I had to pull off and replug after any power loss (but not after ordinary turning off the machine), because apparently the motherboard wasn't tested for AT keyboards < 1413146301 657771 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a real AT keyboard, just a Compaq keyboard with AT plug < 1413146314 266626 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, must be nice to be Apple. Just a few devices to care about and test on < 1413146338 75575 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1413146343 23865 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vertical integration is a soothing thing < 1413146347 286142 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: don't they like have to support any USB device too? < 1413146360 438224 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :including idiotic ones < 1413146363 467162 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, well that is still less of a mess than supporting any chipset < 1413146370 14288 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1413146438 869663 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, Linux does a good job of supporting all kinds of old hardware generally < 1413146445 910215 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :from back when hardware came with a documented interface < 1413146452 538093 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, " Test if A20 is enabled in a loop with a time-out (as the fast A20 method may work slowly) " I love that the "fast" method might work "slowly" < 1413146479 898866 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehehe < 1413146483 888273 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, yes, i486 or newer these days I believe < 1413146484 298456 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: seriously, people who whine about UEFI being unnecessary overcomplicated cruft have never seen what it takes to boot an x86 BIOS machine < 1413146492 970182 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, true < 1413146506 983664 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's not really the cpu I'm talking about < 1413146507 332332 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, And UEFI is still overcomplicated < 1413146508 16868 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: going from the state you start out in to 64-bit with paging is like one of those movie montages going through 20 years of computing history < 1413146511 487507 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like the rest of the system < 1413146515 126985 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1413146528 663938 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix real mode to not have horribly broken memory, set up protected mode with segmentation and everything, only to arrange long mode... < 1413146529 995840 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I know < 1413146537 412782 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: yeah, or development of fetuses < 1413146543 241607 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, You need to go through segmentation? < 1413146546 360553 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: heh < 1413146553 184467 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: erm, right, no < 1413146556 970736 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I thought you just had to go to flat paged protected mode < 1413146569 73050 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but you have to set up dummy "segments" for that :p < 1413146573 324566 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh right < 1413146580 173739 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, I think you need flat unpaged. the segments are there. the page table isn't. < 1413146580 489466 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not really segmented, but... < 1413146582 512831 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, but lm still uses that, for something iirc < 1413146593 67016 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fs segment is used for offsets for something iirc < 1413146595 495870 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to set up a single segment < 1413146602 211947 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if UEFI firmwares go through that dance themselves < 1413146619 788929 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they need to be able to go back to "Welcome to 1985!" mode for CSM BIOS booting, at least < 1413146631 414540 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they have code to deliberately downgrade everything? :) < 1413146632 283094 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: some of it most likely, at least the part until protected mode, either 16 or 23 bit < 1413146641 260329 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they might not need to go to long mode < 1413146647 282769 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, To some extent I guess, probably don't need to try all ways to enable A20, they probably know which one will work < 1413146647 831200 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 64-bit UEFI is long mode < 1413146656 781361 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's the only version anyone bothers deploying (mostly) < 1413146658 166723 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can't stay in real mode because then they can't access enough memory < 1413146663 709841 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: ok < 1413146671 795101 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, they need to be able to downgrade yes I guess < 1413146682 716238 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I guess the CPU is always going to start in hell mode rather than initialising straight in long mode or whatever < 1413146691 394923 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1413146696 102448 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then how does that access 32-bit ACPI? < 1413146705 473371 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just the initial eecution mode. < 1413146709 602297 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're asking me? :p < 1413146714 114759 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: yes < 1413146716 127009 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully, I am not a firmware developer < 1413146724 567939 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's even worse than being an OS developer < 1413146738 941066 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to write code that works without any /RAM/ for a while < 1413146739 791950 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is interesting, how do BIOS access enough memory to store all the ACPI shit < 1413146747 281430 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I don't think the CPU starting in real mode is the big problem. it's more how you have to use that mode for accessing the BIOS and VESA and ACPI and maintainer mode and whatever all that stuff is < 1413146759 264822 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, they presumably use the cache for data storage? < 1413146762 898098 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes < 1413146765 780916 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, elliott, you can skip from real mode straight to long mode. < 1413146776 235348 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: to initialise everything so they can talk to the RAM < 1413146779 444783 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of amazing < 1413146788 992882 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only real difference between protected and long mode is a flag on the code and data segment. < 1413146790 264162 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, maintainer mode, which one is that now again < 1413146795 648499 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's when you sort of half set up protected mode and then cheat a little, right? < 1413146805 928550 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that actually allowed by the "spec"? < 1413146809 926917 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: do you need cache for that? I thought the memory-mapped ROM and registers were enough. < 1413146817 389416 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, pretty sure the answer is no < 1413146830 433223 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Yes. Long mode is literally just an extra flag on the segment. < 1413146836 177779 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: maybe it's called something else. some CPU mode like real mode that is used to access ACPI from long mode or some shit like that. < 1413146841 331184 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The Intel manual specifies no state transition directly from Real-Address mode to IA-32e Mode. < 1413146841 887523 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: coreboot uses cache at that stage, at least, I think < 1413146843 54925 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, ah < 1413146870 443482 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I guess motherboards and memory and everything are all fancy now and it's more complicated to set up? I know literally nothing about the process. < 1413146878 710944 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: maybe. I dunno. < 1413146880 448225 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Who said anything about IA-32e? < 1413146884 18113 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: alternatively, it's just convenient to have more RAM than registers give you < 1413146893 109495 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why not < 1413146896 921741 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: sure < 1413146907 451437 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you can do that in modern cpus < 1413146908 602954 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what does using the L1 cache for storage even /look/ like in code? I should read coreboot) < 1413146912 932628 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's what "Long Mode" is. < 1413146924 247763 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Why the hell did Intel invent a new name for it? < 1413146926 151320 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, my "BIOS", is pretty fancy, if you brick it you can make it load a backup from an USB drive in a special port on the back while holding a button on the mobo < 1413146931 797168 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously that method didn't yet exist for old cpus < 1413146932 261263 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I would not care about Intel's docs. < 1413146935 894600 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not their design. < 1413146945 299551 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, so yes I guess it is a lot more complicated < 1413146952 189441 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Not just one new name, they also called it EM64T for a while. < 1413146961 598822 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now they call it "Intel 64". < 1413146964 422263 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I just wouldn't want to rely on it when it's not much more work to go into protected mode. < 1413146970 712754 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: *shrug* < 1413146975 11040 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I call it amd64 < 1413146979 612274 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The mode is still called IA-32e.) < 1413146981 959597 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, also there is another button that checks for valid memory configurations while the system is not booted, and signals if it is ok or not using some leds < 1413147018 662396 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to find early-stage coreboot code < 1413147032 708760 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, computers are complicated these days < 1413147084 580349 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have been for a long time :/ < 1413147104 368005 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a C compiler that uses cache as storage or something < 1413147109 151556 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember hearing coreboot used that or something < 1413147112 290993 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounded incredible < 1413147163 332006 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: there's a C compiler at boot time made from TCC, but I don't think it uses cache as storage, only ordinary RAM < 1413147195 352298 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relevant (if entirely outdated) article: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.35.45 "High-Performance IP Routing Table Lookup Using CPU Caching" < 1413147196 620937 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, you know, it sure uses cache but the cpu handles that transparently) < 1413147200 358869 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember it was v. fancy. < 1413147204 45849 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right, I mean an ahead-of-time thing < 1413147211 350153 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it compiles C code to machine code that doesn't use RAM but cache < 1413147223 815365 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because... writing early-stage boot stuff in assembly is just too much of a pain, I guess? < 1413147328 176380 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://review.coreboot.org/gitweb?p=coreboot.git;a=blob;f=src/arch/x86/init/bootblock_normal.c;h=218d456ad326050aeb5ff171ab1cbb35b75934d5;hb=HEAD if (boot_cpu()) is a great bit of code (I guess this boots other CPUs in SMP or something) < 1413147376 518958 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.coreboot.org/Developer_Manual#coreboot_Overview ah < 1413147398 981721 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :romcc was what I was thinking of < 1413147399 578337 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: what? doesn't only the real OS have to boot other CPUs? < 1413147415 192103 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :To call back on the earlier topic, whether or not "x86-64" is Intel's design is pretty irrelevant to what are the legal ways of switching modes on an Intel processor (of which there are quite a few), and the Intel manual is pretty clear on that: "On Intel 64 processors, the IA32_EFER_ MSR is cleared on system reset. The operating system must be in protected mode with paging enabled before attempting to initialize IA-32e mode." < 1413147433 459563 :t1vb!~Leo@c-2ec395b5-74736162.cust.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1413147433 885186 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't know, honestly. that code doesn't seem to be part of that boot sequence on that wiki page I linked. < 1413147488 612787 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how this code works around /bugs in gas/ < 1413147499 257940 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you can't even trust your assembler... < 1413147508 855832 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: as in, actual bugs, or just no support for later extensions in older gas? < 1413147522 988490 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1413147575 354799 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bugs, or at least quirks < 1413147591 778908 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, where is that workaround? < 1413147595 696217 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :see http://review.coreboot.org/gitweb?p=coreboot.git;a=blob;f=src/cpu/x86/16bit/reset16.inc;h=33712d179911b2a4e64c5a79d98d81bdc3fc22bc;hb=HEAD and http://review.coreboot.org/gitweb?p=coreboot.git;a=blob;f=src/cpu/x86/16bit/entry16.inc;h=c82edfd93698e56acde4c1fd45e79ec25d5f2ef0;hb=HEAD < 1413147600 58135 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :are those bugs for 16 bit (real or protected) mode only? < 1413147603 64486 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :two comments about gas/binutils workarounds :) < 1413147607 558557 :tlvb!~Leo@c-2ec3bf7d-74736162.cust.telenor.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1413147614 642751 :t1vb!~Leo@c-2ec395b5-74736162.cust.telenor.se NICK :tlvb < 1413147643 139288 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : 79 * The criteria for relocation have been relaxed to their < 1413147643 292833 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : 80 * utmost, so that we can use the same code for both < 1413147643 293009 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : 81 * our initial entry point and startup of the second cpu. < 1413147648 309057 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, coreboot /can/ initialise other CPUs < 1413147654 447222 :aretecode!~aretecode@69.163.36.90 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413147655 766065 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess because it is more flexible than just doing BIOS < 1413147749 994741 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I don't think those are assembler bugs. one of them is a linker bug for 16-bit cpu mode, the other is just missing features supporting convenient syntax for segmented modes < 1413147774 697865 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the first one is a binutils bug, but only for 16 bit modes probably. < 1413147776 987454 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1413147777 553669 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1413147807 38616 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless perhaps it affects instructions with 16 bit long address override (accessing the first 64k) in 32 bit mode < 1413147823 680677 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.189.69.192 QUIT : < 1413147825 177425 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is this making me want to play with firmware code :/ < 1413147826 954432 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are rarely used, because you rarely know taht somethign is in the first 64k address space < 1413147837 172066 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the boot process looks like for other architectures < 1413147840 290690 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet it's so much less baroque < 1413147846 946632 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehehe < 1413147862 422756 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: you only don't know enough about those architectures :-) < 1413147865 370002 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1413147873 527603 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's why they're a nice fantasy :p < 1413147874 61232 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really like the 'lu li la' melody. Although I think it's inaccurate to call it a melody, each song which has it seems to be a bit different when it uses them < 1413147893 398418 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, I figure x86 has gotten more than its fair share of cruft just due to its popularity and longetivity < 1413147904 538081 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the problem with ARM is that until recently ARM machines didn't have good ways to discover the hardware configuration, because they were lots of different architectures, unlike x86 which is almost all PC < 1413147913 919482 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be interested in learning how POWER or SPARC machines or whatever boot < 1413147923 812601 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right... ARM suffers from popularity too < 1413147938 654481 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this, x86 is actually better because it has a bios, even if that bios sucks < 1413147955 806604 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously there are some non-PC x86 machines, but very few.) < 1413147960 941925 :aretecode!~aretecode@69.163.36.90 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1413147983 208980 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1413148020 903988 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's lucky there are no pre-486 machines anymore < 1413148026 3775 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fm towns! pc-98! okay, maybe you count those as PC, but they're not all that compatible < 1413148047 708153 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did not know pc-98 was 86 < 1413148066 541595 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is totally going to alter my la mulana experience or whatever < 1413148081 320058 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe I live in a sort of closed world were I don't want to consider the possibility of non-PC non-x86_64 machines < 1413148081 473515 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it got a windows port < 1413148088 740925 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm really a software guy, not a hardware guy < 1413148100 641736 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just refuse to work with such machines < 1413148108 369264 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, la mulana was about msx, not pc-98 < 1413148116 153185 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :derf < 1413148127 694590 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FM Towns Marty totally preempted the trend of x86 consoles < 1413148131 695821 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess i'll have to resort to h4xing toho then < 1413148160 32082 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :«This refers to Charles Townes, one of the winners of the 1964 Nobel Prize in Physics, following a custom of Fujitsu at the time to code name PC products after Nobel Prize winners» what... < 1413148161 782921 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wonder what /their/ firmware is like) < 1413148203 733482 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah, that's why they're a nice fantasy :p <-- ARM is messy, and not standardalized at all < 1413148211 7060 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much worse than PC in that aspect < 1413148218 5611 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, the AMD64 Architecture Programmer's Manual is pretty clear too: "Protected mode must be entered before activating long mode. A minimal protected-mode environment must be established to allow long-mode initialization to take place." < 1413148226 224104 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't we just use UEFI on Z80 or something < 1413148231 677495 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how hard can it be < 1413148232 21995 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It does seem to allow you to dispense with setting up legacy paging, which you might count as "going directly from real mode to long mode", but you do need to set CR.PE0 to 1 -- enable protected mode -- and set EFER.LMA to 1 -- enable long mode -- as two discrete steps. Admitteldy long mode will only "activate" when CR0.PG is set to enable paging.) < 1413148270 502422 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know about unreal mode, but can you do some kind of unprotected mode? < 1413148271 991587 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I think sparc is openfirmware < 1413148276 625283 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't ask me how it'd work < 1413148277 518530 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, same for power mostly < 1413148292 680319 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, not sure what happens with stuff like Cell in PS4 though < 1413148299 320014 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PS4 is x86-64 < 1413148299 694295 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1413148301 149577 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :PS3 < 1413148303 565802 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I meant < 1413148324 403790 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Management_Mode oh, the NSA have actually done rootkits with this < 1413148371 389392 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like their codenames < 1413148375 284681 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, SMM is a mess when doing real time systems I know that < 1413148384 727424 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see the nsa still uses the cia cryptonym school of naming < 1413148397 278031 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, which is one reason we don't use off-the-shelf hardware at work < 1413148398 685957 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOUFFLETROUGH! SCHOOLMONTANA! DEITYBOUNCE! IRONCHEF! wait, /iron chef/? < 1413148425 149648 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do they work on those without cracking up < 1413148432 535138 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ah yes, I was just treaking the... souffle trough" < 1413148436 585180 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tweaking < 1413148446 74601 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you never really needed paging, as in 32 bit protected mode always worked without paging too, only that didn't get much use, except as an intermediate step when booting into paged 32 bit mode < 1413148483 216541 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you use SMM for like, running a hypervisor < 1413148488 241072 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1413148489 873914 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you skip 16 bit protected mode to set up 32 bit protected mode though? < 1413148504 138440 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, the dep of state was codenamed ODACID < 1413148510 974851 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: no, there's a separate mode for that < 1413148516 918835 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also supported by the cpu < 1413148521 188551 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yeah but that's less fun < 1413148524 791754 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ODENVY: Federal Bureau of Investigation" you stupid assholes < 1413148534 82745 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I think this supervisor mode is for ACPI stuff < 1413148537 605358 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1413148541 130135 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and rootkits < 1413148541 731763 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1413148550 979777 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: You could argue that the 32-bit compatibility submode of long mode is an "unprotected mode", based on how unreal mode lets "real mode" code access beyond the segment limits, and the compatibility submode lets 32-bit code run. Though that breaks down if you look too closely at the details. < 1413148577 339140 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: kind of dull, though < 1413148597 994425 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, SMM uses unreal mode, great < 1413148615 964258 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the desert of the real mode < 1413148627 52842 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :look I'm just going to do everything in vm86 mode from now on and cry < 1413148632 255817 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1413148652 534766 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, are there any hacks you can do to get at vm86 mode from long mode < 1413148653 82538 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, you can't do vm86 if you are in long mode I think < 1413148661 529009 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, maybe sort of partially sort of exiting long mode so you can get at it < 1413148667 517117 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, well you could reset the CPU I guess < 1413148670 501106 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would work < 1413148673 738355 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I mean less dramatically :p < 1413148677 498779 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the overhead would be terrible < 1413148712 194466 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is VIA still around btw? < 1413148722 595433 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it just Intel and AMD making x86 CPUs these days < 1413148729 242732 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're still around < 1413148733 786993 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also Cyrix and Transmeta I guess < 1413148744 113689 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, they still make x86? < 1413148749 697279 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1413148750 452214 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, < 1413148754 509579 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck < 1413148756 440919 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cyrix and transmeta are dead < 1413148764 967883 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :via acquired cyrix in '99 < 1413148775 41112 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :std::string::size_type can be a signed integral type? < 1413148776 250555 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like via even does quad cores now < 1413148777 789909 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The process of leaving long mode is there in the manuals, at least. < 1413148779 406000 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it woudl be always unsigned < 1413148782 793953 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me ask ##c++ < 1413148800 651871 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, really huh < 1413148810 848089 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1413148818 957682 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have pretty fancy processors, for being bad, slow x86 < 1413148836 998277 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1413148839 445901 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :crypto acceleration, 3d graphics, H.264 < 1413148881 917137 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, speaking of which, how does TPM work? And how does it work when you don't have secureboot? < 1413148888 201829 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are they even related < 1413148893 68148 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it has anything to do with secure boot < 1413148895 946224 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1413148898 282398 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it for then < 1413148900 561735 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a piece of hardware you can talk to < 1413148913 518713 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will do crypto on some keys it has for you < 1413148915 51569 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know my thinkpad has it, but it is pre-EFI < 1413148926 330624 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is all? Okay < 1413148939 405151 :aretecode!~aretecode@69.163.36.90 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413148940 12539 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module < 1413148941 435609 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it would be useful for hard disk encryption maybe < 1413148943 31112 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus some other misc. stuff < 1413148947 342235 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes bitlocker uses it for that < 1413148963 210954 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can do some kind of hardware authentication stuff too it seems < 1413149023 376503 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1413149025 914400 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds the market for old game consoles to have gotten really confusing < 1413149027 687624 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_x86_manufacturers < 1413149036 171674 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like intel, amd and via are the only people still running < 1413149044 206573 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? < 1413149046 466202 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should write an open source vhdl/verilog implementation of x86-64 or something < 1413149051 87861 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be fun slash horrible < 1413149080 688906 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The NES is only slightly cheaper than the damned AV Famicom. < 1413149084 639843 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1413149089 496551 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, that's just general purpose manufacturers < 1413149097 322678 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the Twin Famicom. < 1413149107 447849 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zet.aluzina.org/index.php/Zet_processor cooool < 1413149115 649749 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, aren't they the same but PAL vs whatever the US used? < 1413149116 453254 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This project is quite complex and is in a very early stage of development. Only the 16-bit part (ie. the 8086/80186) is supported, see Zet status for more information. It can boot successfully MS-DOS 6.22, FreeDOS 1.1 and run Microsoft Windows 3.0 and other MS-DOS games. < 1413149120 422853 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!! < 1413149127 10625 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, somebody actually went through the effort < 1413149128 243232 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: They're both NTSC! < 1413149133 462570 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's that work legally? < 1413149143 974588 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then what is the difference < 1413149153 197880 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cartridge slot. < 1413149153 933922 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex86 linux supports this I guess? < 1413149163 795552 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cartridge slot is physically different. < 1413149175 948189 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: well, how did amd work legally? you're allowed to create compatible CPUs < 1413149178 676350 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Electronically* they are utterly the same. < 1413149195 79726 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: yeah, that's what i'm wondering, i mean i don't know if amd has to license something or what. < 1413149197 831715 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Same ports? < 1413149204 53514 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: AMD has a long-standing license. < 1413149204 551227 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1413149206 91194 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then what is the difference? < 1413149213 181190 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: they didn't originally, did they? < 1413149225 392837 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think as long as you are sufficiently clean-room about it there is not much case for it being infringing. < 1413149237 56906 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: They had a license way back in the day too. < 1413149242 629393 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1413149249 69326 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: At the time of the IBM PC, IBM required second-source providers for all the chips. < 1413149262 417513 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Intel licensed the 8086 design to other manufacturers, most notably AMD. < 1413149263 434984 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, well intel probably has a license from AMD for x86-64. Probably since they both depend on each other there, they don't pay each other anything < 1413149267 995491 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: mm < 1413149294 689868 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System#mediaviewer/File:NES-Console-Set.jpg vs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System#mediaviewer/File:Famicom-Console-Set.jpg < 1413149297 716181 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a little sad that architectures are things subject to licensing and such < 1413149327 734455 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1413149334 800082 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw2-50de97-172.dhcp.inet.fi NICK :J_Arcane < 1413149434 365840 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The freaking Twin Famicom being cheap is just really weird though. It was a very short-lived obscure version of the Famicom that had the Famicom disk system builtin. < 1413149484 94802 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet the famicom has a nice simple boot process < 1413149488 112149 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1413149491 809454 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It starts running code. < 1413149504 36181 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, intel and amd have licences both ways, while they still treat each other as enemies < 1413149512 77080 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well they are different physically < 1413149512 354890 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and try to screw with each other all the time < 1413149515 231838 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, region locking? < 1413149553 561211 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, naturally < 1413149554 699642 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The NES has a (easily gotten around) lockout chip, which the Famicom does not have. < 1413149587 497419 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what does that chip lock out exactly? < 1413149603 189003 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It prevents a cartridge that is not approved by Nintendo from booting on the NES. < 1413149613 562679 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1413149705 639822 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, just going over to a Japanese marketplace makes it nutsier. < 1413149707 218108 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z80, when reset by the RESET signal, disables interrupts, clears the I and R registers, and starts executing code at address 0000. Oh, and switches the interrupt mode to IM 0 (out of the three existing ones). < 1413149722 356580 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could literally have a Famicom imported from Japan for less than an NES would cost. < 1413149745 264293 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Or you could run a cycle perfect emulator I assume < 1413149749 785704 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes. < 1413149760 720822 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would be cheaper < 1413149765 21559 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm merely noting that this is a stupidly anomalous market. < 1413149777 689019 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Btw, are there drivers for PS4 controllers on PC yet? < 1413149786 58814 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you don't need drivers < 1413149788 692642 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just works, has since day 1 < 1413149792 314615 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :via bluetooth or usb < 1413149792 573957 :pikhq!~pikhq@deagol.pikhq.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially as NES to Famicom adapters are pretty cheap. < 1413149793 881840 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, even on Windows? < 1413149795 69791 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: to 0000? seriously? < 1413149795 937903 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1413149803 403304 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works perfectly < 1413149807 231709 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, nice, a step up from PS3 controllers then < 1413149812 871777 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, what about for android? < 1413149815 897348 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pairing it via bluetooth can be a little tricky since you need to press the buttons in some fussy way but whatever < 1413149821 608673 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know about android. I think it works via usb on android? < 1413149826 943573 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik it just presents itself as a very normal usb device < 1413149830 667221 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nice < 1413149836 908924 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, yeah my PS3 controllers works with android with a special app < 1413149840 996490 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, I think you usually put ROM down at the start of the address space. I mean, that's where all the zero-page RST instruction go to, too. < 1413149843 390308 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that needs root) < 1413149848 358322 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :over bt that is < 1413149856 227018 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, anyway, what about the touchpad? That works too? < 1413149857 18841 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i've successfully written an assembly language interpreter in an assembly language, feelin pretty g- *looks at conversation* < 1413149861 413567 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use it with games designed for xbox controllers if you have a program for that, too < 1413149865 99923 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've played spelunky like that < 1413149870 742356 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very nice < 1413149873 469556 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: idk < 1413149876 795338 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as a pointing device last I tried < 1413149882 122564 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but probably you can write code that works with it < 1413149883 587432 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like the triggers on the PS3 controller that I have < 1413149887 326573 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pressing it down might do something < 1413149888 222264 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very nice otherwise < 1413149891 274648 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the touchpad is kind of useless and silly. < 1413149900 698866 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm just surprised because 6502 and the original 86_16 have the boot code near the top of their address space, and that's where itnerrupts in 6502 jumpt too < 1413149904 466953 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and RST in 6502 < 1413149930 90726 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes sense, because you want the zero page to be a RAM, it's inconvenient to put the bootup ROM there < 1413149942 899121 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to bank switch it out after bootup, and couldn't write it during < 1413149954 715997 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Well, the Z80 doesn't have any cheaper zero-page addressing modes. < 1413149958 875017 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you don't want to consume zero page space with jump instructiosn anyway < 1413149974 469999 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah, I guess that's the difference < 1413149983 958376 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains why 6502 has the interrupt stuff at top < 1413150002 490508 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :About the only instructions for which the zero page is special are RST 08h, RST 10h, ..., RST 38h which perform a call to $0008, $0010, ..., $0038 which make sense to be (cheaply callable) ROM routines. < 1413150039 702395 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the "IM 1" interrupt mode has the interrupt handler at $0066. < 1413150050 901755 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think GameBoy (which is a variant of Z80) has a $FFxx addressing mode for a few instructions. < 1413150074 820687 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :The TI83+ has a Z80 right? < 1413150098 354735 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes. < 1413150109 687670 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I see < 1413150113 973355 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, So I have x86, x86-64, PPC, ARM, MIPS and Z80 in this room then. Not bad. < 1413150125 95885 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :no ALPA or SPARC :/ < 1413150138 371546 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: heh < 1413150140 876229 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also that switch might have something < 1413150151 12954 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what cpu does your keyboard have? < 1413150151 210951 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :My router is MIPS I know, but the switch I have no clue < 1413150164 572696 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, I have no idea. It is a MS egronomic one < 1413150168 307195 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ergonomic* < 1413150181 938408 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what room is that? home? work? work server room? < 1413150186 890909 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, home < 1413150201 537215 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the record: IM 0 "handles" interrupts by executing an instruction directly from the data bus; the interrupting device is supposed to put it there. IM 1 was just a reset to $0066. And IM 2 reads byte X from the data bus (theoretically from the device), forms a 16-bit address from the I register (high half) and X, and performs an indirect jump to the address given at that location in memory. < 1413150218 495655 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :frankly I have no idea what cpu my nokia mobile phone has < 1413150223 573833 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: also, PS4 controller is very nice handfeel wise, if you haven't used one < 1413150226 373749 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this pc has x86_64 of course < 1413150234 762149 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I have not < 1413150247 79627 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's really awkward, because in many real systems (like the TI-8x calculators, and the speccy) you don't really have any control over what's on the data bus, and it doesn't zero the lowest bit (even though the manual says it has to be 0). < 1413150248 692002 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PS3 was a little awkward to hold in comparison to e.g. the 360 controller but I prefer the PS4 controller to both < 1413150253 822144 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have three calculators of which at least one might be 6502 but I don't really know for sure < 1413150267 304666 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they did change the triggers :p < 1413150277 741121 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, I have some old computers, including a first generation ibook (PPC and x86). And RPi, a phone and a tablet (ARM). A TI83+ (Z80). A netgear router (MIPS). A modern laptop and a desktop (x86-64) < 1413150288 74464 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you need to fill 257 bytes (with the start position aligned to 256) with e.g. $ab, point I at that area, and put your own interrupt handler in $abab. < 1413150291 334516 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the radio probably has a cpu, but I've no idea what < 1413150313 855031 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think phones/tablets have another CPU hiding on there < 1413150317 95917 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe another ARM but maybe something else < 1413150323 160033 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the mobile radio stuff < 1413150339 202728 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, well that is true, for the phone at least. The tablet is wifi only though < 1413150343 484559 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also your computers probably have non-x86 CPUs on the motherboard or cards < 1413150353 987203 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a camera (other than the phone) in the room right now < 1413150357 546185 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, indeed, I assume my disk controller runs something for example < 1413150360 620112 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what else can have a cpu? < 1413150363 695206 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, but I listed the CPUs I knew of < 1413150368 716546 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and network card type stuff I think < 1413150373 305893 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, my keyboard most likely has some microprocessor or microcontroller < 1413150375 73168 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, yep < 1413150381 81074 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, my mouse too < 1413150392 280518 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :The PS3 controller as well < 1413150394 142008 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the mouse too, yes, especially because it's optical < 1413150399 306346 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed < 1413150401 656096 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long until I can get an x86 implanted so that I, too, can have a shitty overcomplicated boot process every time I wake up in the morning < 1413150411 494362 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I already do < 1413150419 787122 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1413150421 360913 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, :D < 1413150422 602637 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: you wouldn't boot up when you wake in the morning < 1413150433 170120 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I know < 1413150444 646958 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you think I'd want the kind of heat consumption x86s have while under blankets like that? < 1413150452 190497 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta shut it down for bed < 1413150458 319438 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, not consumption. < 1413150461 518440 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I still have two old unused mobile phones in the room, and maybe a wristwatch too < 1413150463 65501 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, my laptop battery charging controller probably has a CPU too. Of some sort < 1413150463 901363 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heat consumption would be a very nice thing for a processor to have < 1413150467 683907 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :or microcontroller at least < 1413150471 162051 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :use your CPU to cool your GPU < 1413150484 262431 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: you'd lower the power consumption, but won't need a full cold boot < 1413150486 243505 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.189.69.192 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413150495 930797 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you have clearly not seen me in the mornings < 1413150507 123217 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh come on, you still need a cpu while sleeping < 1413150510 936049 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case an emergency comes up < 1413150516 910775 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, try a warm water bottle < 1413150524 696443 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: If you have any sort of printer, it probably has a CPU too. < 1413150527 404167 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might as well be running TCCBOOT with how long it takes me to be active < 1413150527 894351 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok ,maybe you'd have multiple cpus in you and some of them power down so you boot those < 1413150531 293156 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno < 1413150536 386319 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh yes I have a printer with a scanner built in < 1413150542 673147 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so it can copy stuff too < 1413150544 390390 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the printers certainly do, but those are not in the same room < 1413150551 992439 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and my monitors have menu systems < 1413150559 618416 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: true, that too < 1413150564 859310 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the monitor < 1413150565 517741 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The CPUs I know around here (if the basement counts) are really quite similar -- x86 (old PC), x86-64 (several), PPC (two old iBooks), ARM (as you; RPi, phone, tablet), MIPS (three consumer networking devices and a SGI Indy), SPARC (SparcStation 5 in the basement), 8502 (C128), Z80 (C128 and TI-86), and I think that's it. The rest don't advertise themselves. < 1413150573 418581 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, plural. I have two in front of me < 1413150579 347973 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. I have only one here < 1413150585 575317 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this room taht is < 1413150590 598000 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I am jealous of your old hardware < 1413150597 671998 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1413150601 915367 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :more jealous of the mips and sparc than the c128 < 1413150616 972789 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I haven't even booted those old Unixy things in maybe 5 years. *sad* < 1413150617 927932 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you count other rooms too, there's at least the washing machine < 1413150627 841963 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'll pay for shipping < 1413150628 706836 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, SGI Indy, nice < 1413150630 254495 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably more < 1413150642 160256 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The Indy was retired from university classroom use, got it for free. < 1413150651 31011 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1413150662 489205 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I might be migrating to UK from around the start of next year, incidentally. < 1413150667 355458 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does an USB memory have a CPU? < 1413150669 911973 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a SparcStation... wow < 1413150671 891438 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: whoa, like, permanently? < 1413150674 674281 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I have a 2 GB USB stick here < 1413150679 546317 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: probably like a microcontroller at least < 1413150686 150394 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, whaat < 1413150701 819539 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's a dangerously critical mass... is it time for an #esoteric meetup < 1413150718 900169 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, my god, there is digital logic everywhere < 1413150733 866344 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: migrating to the UK? nice < 1413150741 325379 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you tell which part of UK? < 1413150752 931893 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: "For the time being", at least. But it's not entirely certain yet, should be clearer in the next week or two. < 1413150766 341243 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what prompted this? < 1413150774 761286 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: If it happens, it would be London. < 1413150775 391394 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a job I guess < 1413150778 517639 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ok < 1413150800 402480 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A job indeed. I'm getting dangerously close to graduating, had to go find something to do afterwards. < 1413150812 325566 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, I assume the desk at work with buttons to raise and lower it has a micro controller, because it moves slower near the bottom and top to prevent a jolt when it hits the stop. And if the power goes you have to reset it by running it to the bottom position and then back to the top, to calibrate it. < 1413150813 635635 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well, if you happen to sadly end up with no space to store your sgi indy or sparcstation I am graciously willing to relieve you of them < 1413150815 214591 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck with that < 1413150815 368175 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very strange < 1413150815 577764 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might end up in Germany, though; applied to two places, both are still doing the rounds. < 1413150850 195894 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't have such a desk, but ok. well, the chair at the dentist is probably like that. < 1413150861 626915 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, It is a pretty nice desk < 1413150904 598889 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one is too, I just have to adjust the height mechanically and only when there's nothing on the desk, but I've adjusted the height only once so far. < 1413150913 126395 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Also the SparcStation cost something like <100 EUR, there is (was?) a company specializing in old Sun hardware (and "server-class" PCs) who did these "sell something by auction every now and then" deals. < 1413150915 26238 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many UK #esotericers would that make? like five? < 1413150919 257821 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the height adjustment isn't the nice part < 1413150922 158017 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, six even < 1413150935 259111 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that it's custom made in a shape that I can't buy anywhere < 1413150939 727468 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally finland will fall < 1413150950 694065 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, I like switching between sitting and standing for health reasons < 1413150963 82969 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had it actually working as an OpenBSD router box for maybe a year or two, but it was horribly noisy. < 1413150978 259885 :Hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1413151013 559123 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I used to switch between sitting on a chair and on a ball for a while, but didn't adjust the table for that. now I have that simplified to chair at home and ball at office. < 1413151020 290765 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :comfy chair. < 1413151025 914454 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone snailmailed me an extra SBus NIC and all. < 1413151046 410533 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a comfortable chair at work and a comfortable chair at home too < 1413151057 772792 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sbus? < 1413151074 500670 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's like the SPARCStation version of PCI. < 1413151081 498961 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1413151098 492095 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, any idea how loud water cooling is? Is there a need for fans on the radiator? < 1413151102 12156 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Except all the devices have Forth-based drivers built in, so you don't need any special OS support necessarily. < 1413151119 333973 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: depends on how big your radiator is :P < 1413151123 157358 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: note that the pump makes noise, too < 1413151123 310715 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1413151129 29523 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that is neat < 1413151129 371092 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can certainly make very quiet water cooling setups < 1413151149 733808 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think water cooling makes much sense these days though, it's such a fuss compared to just using huge heatsinks and big quiet fans. < 1413151155 539128 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, one that is quiet, not super-costly and not larger than the computer itself? :P < 1413151170 817759 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you really want a super xxxtreme quiet setup use liquid immersion cooling < 1413151179 916340 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, that might be a bit too far < 1413151192 111277 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I just want a desktop that is as quiet as a idling laptop < 1413151192 264559 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, I retired the box when I moved to the university campus, because it only had 10M Ethernet, and 100M SBus cards were quite rare/expensive. (Sun switched away from SBus to PCI even for SPARC hardware later.) < 1413151203 618436 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :an* < 1413151205 257856 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you could use a house's heating radiators for watercooling < 1413151214 308810 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just turn on your computer to warm up the room < 1413151228 162379 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I have electric radiators sadly < 1413151239 501290 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: then probably just buy aftermarket big, quiet fans and gigantic heatsinks for CPU and GPU? < 1413151245 444821 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1413151248 851654 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never done watercooling. < 1413151255 516990 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's scary. < 1413151257 358633 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the card could only do 100??? < 1413151277 88817 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :err sorry misread < 1413151291 903299 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read it as the campus having 10M ethernet < 1413151324 544180 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, right, my case have premade holes for water cooling though < 1413151327 747820 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, no, the other way around. < 1413151363 378392 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :These days they have gigabit Ethernet to the apartments, and I'm pretty sure there are no gigabit SBus cards, I doubt the bus even has enough bandwidth for that. < 1413151373 775555 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1413151383 860831 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that the 75 MHz µSparc or whatever it had would probably deal with that either. < 1413151389 726277 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is neat to have forth firmware though < 1413151391 428017 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hope you're prepared for underwhelming internet here btw :p < 1413151422 781206 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I've heard underwhelming things about it, yes. < 1413151445 990200 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, Surely there are exceptions? My linode in london runs just fine < 1413151455 31421 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess datacenters are better though < 1413151456 138086 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I did not know swedes live in data centres < 1413151465 160111 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :truly let me call up level 3 and ask them for a DSL link < 1413151474 463804 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, how else did you think we got our good internet speeds? < 1413151492 678164 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, You didn't think we all lived in normal houses right? < 1413151505 519801 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh we managed to fool you? Still? After how many years!? < 1413151518 336112 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, Vorpal. swedes have not managed to fool the world into thinking they're normal. < 1413151524 15899 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even slightly. < 1413151525 190223 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: We only have 10M/10M here at home these days (because it's ~free), and that seems perfectly survivable. < 1413151529 51748 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, damn < 1413151535 379975 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh, yikes, my condolences < 1413151554 426489 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, you'll certainly get better as far as download goes, but probably not upload) < 1413151563 660803 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, anyway I have ADSL (24/2), meaning actually 12-14/1.5-1.7 < 1413151567 788923 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(cable and fibre-to-the-cabinet are pretty widely available and quite decent, though) < 1413151573 911213 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have sane internet at home, and superb internet at the university, but very sucky internet at the office. < 1413151597 710212 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I know people who have 100/100 fibre though < 1413151610 503756 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So sucky I'm considering to just buy a cheap mobile internet account and try to route some of the low bandwidth traffic (like irc access) through that. < 1413151626 426941 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They'd bump it up to 100M/10M if we paid a bit extra, but haven't really seen the need for that so much. Can't push very much more than that through dirty old phone lines, anyway. (There's fibre to the basement telecoms room of this building, but the last hundred metres or so are still old copper.) < 1413151656 521135 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, 10M is enough usually if it's reliable enough < 1413151673 662769 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my animes :( < 1413151686 374334 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Based on speed tests, it's actually 12M/6M for some reason.) < 1413151694 997555 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, not really, Try a family with several people streaming video at the same time < 1413151703 791157 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: load them in advance, rather than real time streaming, or load time from office or something and take them home on a disk. < 1413151714 178469 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, 1080p of course < 1413151717 148000 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even 4k < 1413151719 673396 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the 6M part is reasonable, since that's around what the VDSL2 box reports as maximum attainable, but I'm slightly unsure why the download link is faster than what we pay for. < 1413151723 988992 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :offended that you'd assume I'm talking about streaming :p < 1413151726 277450 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's compensating. < 1413151756 596753 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: if you control the router, it doesn't matter for you what other people stream. < 1413151763 731313 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, hah < 1413151771 136005 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: with previous ISP's hardware, the very same VDSL2 modem reported a maximum attainable upload rate somewhere in the 50M-60M range. < 1413151773 709611 :mlilenium_!~mlilenium@178.251.136.142 JOIN :#esoteric < 1413151774 425076 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, the router is some crap provided by the ISP < 1413151782 951758 :mlilenium_!~mlilenium@178.251.136.142 PART :#esoteric < 1413151785 587326 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: connect another router to it < 1413151789 107610 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, "Thomson Speetouch" iirc < 1413151790 677776 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to its only output port < 1413151792 946951 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speedtouch* < 1413151797 495110 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this new one hasn't enabled the 30a profile or something. < 1413151798 742059 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, don't connect anything else directly < 1413151803 273263 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you control the second router < 1413151810 204987 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, well sure < 1413151811 663536 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I may have to ask about ISP opinions at some point, though. < 1413151813 179581 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't be happy until ten petabits of data beam into my literal microwave skull which boots an x86 processor for every packet that comes in, constantly, never stopping, always, forever < 1413151838 974906 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :here I don't have an ISP owned router, only an ISP owned modem that has only a single eth output. < 1413151848 507389 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the router is ours. < 1413151852 883069 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, the modem has a built in router < 1413151860 598815 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(routers. there's more than one actually.) < 1413151865 682374 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl, night < 1413151868 115400 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I haven't used http://aaisp.net.uk/ but they're very well-regarded (and will do FTTC/FTTP if available). virgin media do 100 mbit cable and aren't that bad for a big isp; all the other "mainstream" options are very questionable. < 1413151871 397807 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, getting too late < 1413151888 903141 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a formerly ISP-owned router from the previous ISP, because the router provided by the current ISP was randomly flaky. < 1413151892 66692 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: hmm < 1413151915 58252 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.zen.co.uk/ too. them and AAISP both do IPv6 unlike practically everyone else :p < 1413151924 693295 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: sounds nice < 1413151945 430600 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: as in, IPv6 without having to pay extra for it, right? < 1413151951 626057 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, the new one actually used the passwords you set via the web-interface for the telnet-interface, unlike the old one, into which you have to log in with user "ztedebug", pass "ztedebug". (If you couldn't guess, it's made by ZTE.) < 1413151983 973778 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, good night now < 1413151991 76637 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: UK internet is just a mess though. government pressuring for mandatory in-your-face "wanna enable a bad internet filter??" options, awful speeds if you're far from the exchange... < 1413151992 823099 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes < 1413151992 976466 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bb in the morning < 1413152020 508911 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1413152029 945481 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it worse than Australia? < 1413152036 539349 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, probably not < 1413152038 913531 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be an achievement < 1413152050 482037 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1413152061 913243 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should be sleepy too, have to wake up around 7am for a listening test, some people at the university were all "please come help Science and all of humanity". < 1413152064 429946 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you like kicking so you can get to bed? :p < 1413152082 980216 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And it's past 1am here, what with the zones of time.) < 1413152133 565918 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's something to do with research about tinnitus, and they were all "oh no, not at all, don't worry about it" when I checked whether the experiment will, in fact, cause that. < 1413152172 986935 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you get a free "this is how good your hearing is" score out of it, which is maybe interesting. -> < 1413152195 830904 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless it's the number "your ears suck", in case it might be more depressing than interesting.) < 1413152237 219239 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favourite number < 1413153810 283047 :tlvb!~Leo@c-2ec395b5-74736162.cust.telenor.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1413153864 63708 :Hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1413154333 331286 :tlvb!~Leo@c-2ec3b5ab-74736162.cust.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1413154565 952196 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1413154597 69695 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley JOIN :#esoteric < 1413155630 913156 :Hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1413155889 263177 :Hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1413155920 785339 :^v!~notnot^v@2601:4:4500:e15:91e8:857d:257b:899a JOIN :#esoteric < 1413156284 153647 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40599&oldid=40596 5* 03AndoDaan 5* (+37) 10Added Burlesque's "Hello, World!" < 1413156716 469781 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40600&oldid=40599 5* 03AndoDaan 5* (+2406) 10Added Verbose's "Hello, World!" < 1413156807 707905 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.189.69.192 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, 'minor'... < 1413157194 341282 :Hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1413157888 31786 :thekey!~qwertyo@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net JOIN :#esoteric