00:06:02 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:06:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:55:43 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:58:21 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 01:00:52 -!- aretecode has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:15:08 -!- aretecode has joined. 01:20:17 How much truth is there to the Apple claim that only allowing their hardware lets them focus on it? I mean, it seems to make sense to me, anyway, just very few sets of drivers to develop and maintain 01:21:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 01:25:11 Also, when people say Macs are overpriced... by how much? I can live with a few hundred extra... not a few thousand extra though 01:41:57 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:07:42 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep). 02:14:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:20:50 -!- conehead has joined. 02:24:10 -!- realzies has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:26:52 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:29:55 -!- ^v has joined. 02:31:28 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:59:33 -!- AndoDaan_ has joined. 03:00:34 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:02:22 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:02:49 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:09:22 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:12:44 -!- ^v has joined. 03:13:10 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 03:15:51 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:17:08 -!- nys has quit (Quit: quit). 03:19:52 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:20:02 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep). 03:20:36 -!- ^v has joined. 03:32:01 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 03:32:16 -!- AndoDaan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:39:44 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 03:59:08 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 03:59:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:59:58 -!- Hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:01:36 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 04:28:23 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 04:46:41 -!- AndoDaan_ has joined. 04:47:37 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:33:56 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 05:34:29 -!- AndoDaan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:21:52 -!- AndoDaan_ has joined. 06:22:35 -!- S1 has joined. 06:23:25 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:02:23 Hyvää huomenta. 07:11:40 Hyvää iltaa. 07:16:15 -!- conehead has joined. 07:31:58 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:32:52 mroman: moi. 07:32:54 -!- brandons1 has joined. 07:34:08 -!- brandons1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:35:14 -!- brandons1 has joined. 07:36:29 -!- brandonson has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:47:33 what's this consonant gradation thing? 07:53:05 You mean the weak and strong forms? 07:53:25 yeah 07:53:27 Pitää vs. minä pidän and so forth? 07:54:06 Just more fun with Finnish, basically. It does sort of make sense, English is full of those little shortcuts, it's just trying to define a rule for it turns out to be a lot of damn rules to remember ... 08:00:35 It's a pronunciation aid in it's original form, I think, just like the vowel harmony; in normal speech a lot of those simplifications and switches roll off the tongue better, but remembering them all as a foriegner is tricky. 08:02:17 inessive is weak? 08:02:28 always or just for some kotus type thingies? 08:02:50 J_Arcane: I'm a native English speaker and trying to think of all the ways that we do that makes my head hurt 08:02:56 it's not as bad as Quebec French though 08:04:27 coppro: English is like the hardest language. XD I think the reason it survives (beyond a lot of problematic history) as a global language is because it's still largely tolerant of error. 08:04:47 You can be bad at English, really bad, and still get your point across. 08:05:24 How's english hard? 08:05:47 no cases, no conjugation, few exceptions 08:06:37 no "la/le" "der/die/das" stuff 08:06:56 (no genders) 08:07:46 english has a very difficult relationship between spelling and pronunciation, it is full of idioms that make little sense, there is parallel latin and germanic vocabulary for just about anything, etc 08:08:55 the grammatical basics are simple, but the basics are seldom enough for fluency 08:09:06 strong grade is used in the syllable, which is open (ends with vowel), weak grade when syllable is closed (ends with consonant) 08:09:09 mroman: Because there's so many exceptions and special cases, you can ignore them and pretend they don't exist, except when trying to transition from one to another. 08:09:32 English *does* have cases, and conjugation, and so forth, it's just not *taught* that way because the rules are no rules at all. 08:09:57 Instead we tend to just teach 'well you use this word for this tense, and that word for this one, etc. etc.' 08:10:09 kukasta is weak, but ends with a vowel 08:10:15 And dear god, the ambiguous prepositions ... 08:10:47 ku-kas-ta, s is a consonant 08:19:07 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1). 08:21:21 English does not have noun cases 08:21:33 except pronouns 08:21:44 (or, I should say, it doesn't have declension except for pronouns) 08:22:28 It also has verb conjugation, but there are at most five true forms for any verb other than 'be' 08:22:55 all the rest is done by auxiliaries 08:23:27 i count the 's-genitive as a noun case 08:23:40 yeah, that's fair 08:25:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:59:17 -!- brandons1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev). 09:05:05 -!- AndoDaan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:18:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:39:04 I agree, English is hard 09:39:30 but of course, Hungarian is hard too, it's just that it's not always hard in the same ways 10:02:49 coppro: compared to other languages the conjugation are very simple 10:03:02 sure, there are tenses. 10:07:18 fizzie: I'm definitely not going to say no if you're offering! I love weird old hardware. not sure how much of a fuss the logistics of getting them to me would be, I guess they're too bulky to reasonably ship off in a normal package? I have to do the sleeping thing now, though. (also, I assume this means congratulations on getting the job?!) 10:09:53 elliott: Well, I mean, I got a definite offer, but I haven't accepted it yet, since I've yet to hear from the other place I applied to. 10:10:39 `slist 10/18 10:10:40 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slist: not found 10:10:45 ? 10:11:23 mroman: yes 10:14:31 -!- Melvar has joined. 10:17:57 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep). 11:32:53 Bah. This 'highlight' tool supports all kinds of niche languages I've never even heard of ("Biferno"? "ABAP/4"? "MoonScript"? "SuperX++"?), but not Forth. 11:33:40 Sure, there's not that much syntax to highlight, but there's at least numbers, comments, and well-established parsing words like : ; ." and so. 11:36:49 MoonScript? 11:37:11 it compiles to Lua o_O 11:41:10 -!- TieSoul has left. 11:44:36 I think it sounded vaguely familiar. 11:44:41 Or at least familiarest of those. 11:44:47 That was a non-exhaustive list. 11:45:08 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 11:45:20 There's also "Not eXactly C" and "Yaiff" and "Yang" and "Zonnon", for example. 11:45:38 And "Squirrel" with file extension .nut, which sounds familiar though I can't quite place it. 11:45:38 That'd be especially bad if you were trying to use ColorForth! 11:46:26 (Wrote a BOLG POST about some golf entries; my "blog engine" uses highlight for codey bits.) 12:02:20 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:20:11 -!- nys has joined. 13:00:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:08:09 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:16:11 `revert 13:16:12 Done. 13:17:53 oerjan: I did a bit of catching up. 13:17:57 `undo 3920 13:17:58 can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you should have used the -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 324c6be2e35a -r bbeb9415a2eb bin/slist \ |--- a/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:08:30 2013 +0000 \ |+++ b/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:09:16 2013 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File to 13:18:16 can someone fix `undo please :( 13:19:41 `sed -i 's|rm bin/slist; ||' bin/slist 13:19:41 Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script- 13:19:47 `run sed -i 's|rm bin/slist; ||' bin/slist 13:19:49 No output. 13:19:58 -!- idris-bot has joined. 13:21:25 i'm sure i vaguely recall there was some joking rationale for making that file self-deleting, but my humor keeps deteriorating. 13:22:21 also, we no longer have log search. 13:22:58 `url bin/undo 13:22:58 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/undo 13:27:56 `run hg diff -c 3920 | paste 13:27:58 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.25739 13:28:53 `run hg diff -c 3920 | patch -R --dry-run 13:28:54 can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you should have used the -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 324c6be2e35a -r bbeb9415a2eb bin/slist \ |--- a/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:08:30 2013 +0000 \ |+++ b/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:09:16 2013 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File to 13:29:32 `revert 5069 13:29:33 Done. 13:29:35 oerjan: you were not involved, apparently: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-10-18 (03:01 ... 03:18) 13:29:41 `run hg diff -c 3920 | patch -R --dry-run 13:29:42 can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you should have used the -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 324c6be2e35a -r bbeb9415a2eb bin/slist \ |--- a/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:08:30 2013 +0000 \ |+++ b/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:09:16 2013 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File to 13:29:50 `run hg diff -c 3920 | patch -p0 -R --dry-run 13:29:51 can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you used the wrong -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 324c6be2e35a -r bbeb9415a2eb bin/slist \ |--- a/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:08:30 2013 +0000 \ |+++ b/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:09:16 2013 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File to patch 13:29:53 -!- TieSoul has joined. 13:29:55 (now do I want to figure out what slist was? I guess not.) 13:29:57 `run hg diff -c 3920 | patch -p1 -R --dry-run 13:29:59 patching file bin/slist 13:30:07 hm... 13:30:09 Hey guys 13:30:59 `revert 13:31:00 Done. 13:31:41 `run sed -i 's/-R/-p1 -R/' bin/undo 13:31:43 No output. 13:32:07 -!- Hjulle has joined. 13:32:18 i'm sure there's some way that will break for other files. 13:33:22 `` hg diff -c 5074 13:33:23 diff -r 5ac8a6965ce8 -r 08a929427374 bin/undo \ --- a/bin/undoSat Oct 18 13:30:29 2014 +0000 \ +++ b/bin/undoSat Oct 18 13:31:12 2014 +0000 \ @@ -1,2 +1,2 @@ \ #!/bin/sh \ -hg diff -c "$@" | patch -R \ +hg diff -c "$@" | patch -p1 -R 13:34:13 So I'm writing another Funge-98 interpreter, and I'm having some trouble with Mycology (again) 13:34:22 it gives this output: 13:34:24 GOOD: u with a positive count transfers cells correctly BAD: u with a positive count transfers cells incorrectly 13:34:40 everything else is GOOD up to that point 13:34:45 i'm particularly worried about the /dev/null case, so i hope that's special cased. 13:35:48 int-e: `slist is homestuck iirc 13:37:29 -!- atriq has joined. 13:37:36 `run cat hello.c 13:37:37 const char main[] = "AXAYAZA[A\\ATX-pppp-0```- ///P^VTXH10XP4>40PZ414>P_\x0f\x05XATASARAQAP\xc3Hello, world!\n"; 13:37:43 `slist 10/18 13:37:44 slist 10/18: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 13:37:57 `` hg diff -c 895 13:37:58 diff -r b1c3b71f6b09 -r b69bb8ef2199 quotes \ --- a/quotesThu Nov 22 23:35:11 2012 +0000 \ +++ b/quotesFri Nov 23 08:58:56 2012 +0000 \ @@ -1,4 +1,3 @@ \ - I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as 13:38:05 oerjan: good timing 13:38:32 atriq: i'm just repeating the command Sgeo did because `slist had been made self-deleting. 13:38:35 strange. I'd expect -p1 to be necessary 13:38:53 but... http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/5e1c1f3d6df7 13:38:54 int-e: um yes it is? that's what i changed. 13:40:24 int-e: i think it happens to work when the files are in HackEgo's home directory or something, since broken `undo has often strewn files there. 13:41:22 oerjan: I know, I'm looking at logs, http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-01-24#211227Gregor ff. 13:42:44 And I have no clue how a plain -R can work, even by accident. 13:43:00 elliott: Gregor: some explanation would be nice. 13:45:32 oh wait, just read the documentation. "not specifying -p at all just gives you blurfl.c" [the example path is /u/howard/src/blurfl/blurfl.c] 13:45:47 so yes it only works for files in the root directory. 13:45:58 and -p1 is clearly the right thing to do. 13:46:58 Can anyone link me an explanation of the char[] main stuff? 13:47:17 atriq: huh, in what context? 13:47:24 atriq: i think it's just machine code as a string? 13:47:47 and since C's linker isn't typed, it treats that as if it's a defined function. 13:47:51 oerjan: I'd prefer something more detailed, such as how to make one myself 13:47:55 OKAY 13:48:00 oh, there's that IOCCC entry, yes. that just defines a symbol "main" or ("_main") pointing to machine code. 13:49:37 which may or may not work; usually that code would end up in the data section and that may not be executable. 13:49:43 * oerjan not good with assembler 13:53:47 char main[]="\xc3"; ==> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 13:54:21 (0xc3 is retq, it's an empty function. but the data segment cannot be executed, hence it dumps core instead.) 13:55:45 this is on x86_64 13:56:32 perhaps the const matters? 13:56:34 the same code works on x86, apparently. 13:57:24 * oerjan not good with C whatchamacallits either 13:57:49 but i'd imagine if data is for changeable data, consts might be stored in the code segment 13:58:06 with const it'll end up in .rodata, right that helps. interesting. 13:58:49 If the linker and kernel agree that .rodata is nonexec, you'll get a segfault anyway 13:59:06 Jafet: it helps = that does work for me. 13:59:21 interesting = I wonder why. :) 13:59:36 Sometimes they disagree, and rodata is executable 13:59:49 sometimes = pretty often 14:01:34 int-e: grmbl why do you always beat me on the golfs where i think i've been particularly clever. 14:01:45 -!- nys has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:01:55 (disclaimer: confirmation bias at work) 14:02:11 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Page closed). 14:02:17 oerjan: henkma did it first. 14:02:25 STILL 14:03:26 oerjan: and I was feeling the same about hello hello world. 14:03:49 ah 14:06:25 (and actually the statistics helped me on that one) 14:06:44 right. how can you have so many fewer alphanums than me when the main (insignificant) change i can see is changing an operator to a function to get _more_ 14:07:24 oh hm 14:07:58 no, gvim, you're _not_ supposed to stupidly resize when i focus. 14:10:43 hmm, funny. I have a solution of length 85 with 52 alphanums, none with more. 14:11:33 oh wait, I can push that to 54 14:11:42 but no more :P 14:12:09 (oops. no, that doesn't work.) 14:14:36 how do you specify the result of {jorne} or {lasna}? the best I can think of is to add a {fi'o sumji} or {fi'o ve jmina} modal place 14:14:49 argh, wrong channel 14:14:50 sorry 14:15:08 that sounds perfectly esoteric 14:15:10 #lojban is thataway 14:15:16 <--- that way, yes 14:15:48 int-e: nah, it's just like perl. you can do sane things or esoteric things in it, but the esoteric stuff is funnier 14:16:43 -!- nys has joined. 14:32:29 -!- S1 has joined. 15:10:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:13:45 -!- boily has joined. 15:17:29 -!- ais523 has quit. 15:22:18 elliott: Gregor: some explanation would be nice. // I'm not sure what you're asking me to explain. 15:23:37 -!- TieSoul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:32:12 -!- drdanmaku has joined. 15:40:56 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:52:05 Gregor: how you ended up putting no -p1 in `undo, i guess. although the log linked showed some confusion about it. 15:53:15 but the answer is probably "because someone tested it without in the particular case where it actually doesn't break". 15:53:25 *accidentally 15:53:47 (someone being either you or elliott) 15:54:32 i suppose this was after something changed that made the old version break. 15:54:55 if there was an old version, maybe not. 15:57:10 `` echo $HOME 15:57:11 -!- TieSoul has joined. 15:57:11 ​/tmp 15:58:00 ah square root of minus garfield has started its birthday special sequence 15:58:34 `` echo $PWD 15:58:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 15:58:34 ​/hackenv 15:58:48 `pwd 15:58:48 ​/hackenv 15:59:13 `` env pwd 15:59:13 ​/hackenv 15:59:21 all agree, a miracle! 15:59:37 `` cd $HOME; pwd; env pwd 15:59:37 ​/tmp \ /tmp 15:59:46 are you sure it's not an evil conspiracy. 15:59:53 of course not. 16:00:19 alright guys 16:00:22 macros: good or evil? 16:00:35 I've just found my self writing an in-place-macro 16:00:44 for the sole purpose of being able to inline code generating code 16:00:44 `` ln -s tmp /mtp; cd /mtp; pwd; env pwd; rm /mtp 16:00:45 ln: failed to create symbolic link `/mtp': Permission denied \ bash: line 0: cd: /mtp: No such file or directory \ /hackenv \ /hackenv \ rm: cannot remove `/mtp': No such file or directory 16:00:53 have I gone too far? 16:01:04 int-e: what on earth are you doing? 16:01:07 `` ln -s /tmp mtp; cd mtp; pwd; env pwd; rm mtp 16:01:09 ​/hackenv/mtp \ /tmp \ rm: cannot remove `mtp': No such file or directory 16:01:32 oh, hackenv ... grr. 16:01:50 i kind of like maru's model, where a macro is just a normal function wrapped in a container that makes the evaluator and compiler do the right semantics. 16:01:51 http://dresdencodak.com/2009/09/22/caveman-science-fiction/ 16:02:13 who's maru? 16:02:32 `revert 16:02:32 Done. 16:02:46 oops 16:03:09 about five pounds! 16:03:11 huh? Done, but not done?! 16:03:21 `` ls mtp 16:03:22 ls: cannot access mtp: No such file or directory 16:03:23 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:03:52 int-e: i am not convinced you reverted the right thing 16:04:14 well it's gone, but why isn't it in codu's log... 16:04:31 oh hm 16:04:36 it was a symbolic link 16:04:50 int-e: well that's a known bug, it doesn't work well with empty files 16:05:06 ls -l / 16:05:08 `` ls -l / 16:05:09 total 32 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 dev \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 0 Oct 18 16:04 etc \ drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Oct 18 16:02 hackenv \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Oct 18 16:04 home \ drwxr-xr-x 11 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 lib \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 lib6 16:05:19 `ls 16:05:20 ​:-( \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ etc \ factor \ head \ hej \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf 16:05:25 `` ls / 16:05:26 bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr 16:05:32 `run echo test >mtp 16:05:33 No output. 16:05:36 `rm mtp 16:05:37 No output. 16:05:41 `rm mtp 16:05:42 rm: cannot remove `mtp': No such file or directory 16:05:45 hmm. 16:06:00 wait it still doesn't show up 16:06:07 `run echo mtp >test 16:06:08 No output. 16:06:25 *sigh* 16:06:27 `rm test 16:06:29 No output. 16:06:38 `ls mtp 16:06:39 No output. 16:06:54 `ls -l mtp 16:06:54 ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information. 16:07:00 `` ls -l mtp 16:07:01 lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 4 Oct 18 16:05 mtp -> /tmp 16:07:13 `rm mtp 16:07:14 No output. 16:07:17 I think the real question is why there was a commit for a change that should've been in the hackenv subdirectory 16:08:28 i think this transaction business is somewhat flaky. 16:08:28 so the repo and hackego are now out of sync. 16:08:40 no, i think they're back in sync now 16:08:43 `ls mtp 16:08:43 ls: cannot access mtp: No such file or directory 16:08:47 they're not 16:09:02 -!- TieSoul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:09:16 oh. 16:09:21 yes they are, thanks 16:09:46 anyway I still don't get what happened. 16:10:14 both symbolic links and empty files can confuse things, so the way to fix things is to turn the mess into an _ordinary_ file, then rm it normally. i think. 16:10:25 does restarting the transaction change the cwd somehow? 16:10:58 `echo abc > abc 16:10:59 abc > abc 16:11:01 ``echo abc > abc 16:11:01 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found 16:11:03 `` echo abc > abc 16:11:05 No output. 16:11:21 `` rm abc 16:11:23 No output. 16:12:01 sigh, I forget that /hackenv *is* the root of the repo. Sorry. 16:13:33 Well, that was a fun day 16:13:36 Gregor: it would be nice if `revert didn't break the repository <-> actual directory contents correspondence when empty files are involved twh 16:14:29 Gregor: so that it would be possible to see whether things are broken or fixed, like. 16:15:08 Taneb: not too many casualties, i hope. 16:16:27 oerjan, Capture-The-Flag competition run by BAE's Computer Intelligence people 16:16:34 aha 16:16:41 A lot of challenges involving cryptography and cybersecurity 16:16:46 One of which was to write brainfuck 16:17:02 Only two teams got that 16:17:06 int-e: i think the thing to do is (1) get the repository and actual directory to agree whether the file _exists_ (2) rm it properly. 16:17:09 Only one of which (me) did it properly 16:18:04 EXCELLENT 16:19:16 i'm not entirely sure how there can _be_ an actual directory if there are simultaneously running programs, though. 16:19:21 (two programs were needed to complete the challenge, one of which was to print a certain string, easy enough) 16:19:24 with transactions. 16:19:51 (the second was to read a line from input that starts with an ASCII digit, then repeat the line that digit number of times) 16:20:47 I have a language that compiles to itself. 16:21:05 mroman: how metacircular. 16:21:50 itself being? 16:22:12 I call it EchoLang 16:22:23 echo being the compiler for it 16:22:24 `echo hi 16:22:25 hi 16:22:41 ... 16:23:08 ^bf ,------------------------------------------------>,[>,]<[<]<[->>[.>]<[<]<]!3test 16:23:23 apparently not. 16:23:55 ^bf ,------------------------------------------------>>,[>,]<[<]<[->>[.>]<[<]<]!3test 16:23:55 testtesttest 16:26:13 "Superx++ is an object-oriented language that is entirely based on XML's syntactical structure. Superx++ conforms with the XML version 1.0 specification as published on the W3C web site. Programming in XML itself has great potential and Superx++ pushes the envelope!" 16:26:17 neat 16:26:27 no. 16:26:35 it's terrifying. 16:27:01 it seems someone had a bad case of XSLT. 16:27:25 * boily TITLECASE CHICKEN 16:27:32 -!- boily has quit (Quit: argh. stupid IRC.). 16:28:07 The advantage of creating esolangs based on XML is that you can easily parse it 16:28:18 like with JAXB (Java) for example 16:28:26 you essentially get XML-parsing/writing for free 16:28:33 it can even generate an XSD for it 16:32:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: lowercase allosaurus). 17:00:05 haha, superx++ has a "short" format which ... http://xplusplus.sourceforge.net/Samples/ArrTest_shx.htm ... err, looks like C++ with a couple of extra semicolons? 17:00:37 useless 17:11:24 of course it's useless 17:12:41 finally complete. It has been released on the web site of Emergent Logic LLC, the company I formed to promote Superx++ 17:12:51 he created a company to promote SuperX++ 17:13:38 although emergentlogic.com isn't a registered domain 17:14:46 http://xplusplus.sourceforge.net/FAQ.htm 17:14:50 yeah right 17:14:53 "ART PRIZE [ITALY]: Marina de Tommaso, Michele Sardaro, and Paolo Livrea, for measuring the relative pain people suffer while looking at an ugly painting, rather than a pretty painting, while being shot [in the hand] by a powerful laser beam." 17:15:03 Who wants to write SuperX++ by hand 17:15:29 (Ig Nobels are always worth looking at, and the 2014 ones were awarded relatively recently.) 17:15:47 this guy is more serious about his SuperX++ than I'm about Burlesque 17:16:54 also... if XML is so cool 17:16:59 why did he invent the C-like syntax 17:17:00 I mean 17:17:09 If XML is so cool, then why aren't you rich? 17:17:16 He kinda made SuperX++ because he thinks XML-Syntax > C-like Syntax 17:17:23 then suddenly he adds C-like syntax 17:17:34 fizzie: Why would XML make me rich? 17:18:06 That was just a "if it's so X then why aren't you Y" thing. 17:18:25 Oh 17:18:27 I see 17:18:42 But I still think it's somewhat contra his initial opinion 17:19:03 since the best benefits of SuperX++ is, that it's XML 17:24:16 oh great, this says gcc 4.9 libstdc++ has the make_unique function! 17:26:29 -!- conehead has joined. 17:32:35 If C++ is so cool then why do I not like it? 17:33:21 (probably mostly because too much line noise, references vs ptrs, you have to do your own memmgmt 17:33:37 it looks weird... 17:34:02 too much const (auto_ptr)&*std:<>>make_ptr:uniqiu_potr 17:35:06 ) 17:35:23 (that's just a rant. Not to start a discussion. Pls don't relpy to the above. thx) 17:36:59 [ __ 17:37:00 b_jonas: __ 17:37:41 [ 12 17:37:41 mroman: 12 17:37:47 [ 12 12* 17:37:48 mroman: |syntax error 17:37:48 mroman: | 12 12* 17:38:20 [ 12 * 12 17:38:21 mroman: 144 17:40:01 How infix. 17:41:33 j-bot uses [ now? And is not named jconn? 17:44:56 Is Factor dead? I do seem some development on it, but not sure if it's just a little bit 17:48:52 Sgeo: it's forks of the same bot ran by different people 17:49:11 there's like eight different names used so far by about six people running that bot 17:49:24 you can also use its full name 17:49:27 j-bot: __ 17:49:28 b_jonas: __ 17:59:35 Hmm. It occurs to me that Factor might be exactly the sort of language where if you're writing lenses, you really, really, want to be able to use native function composition 18:03:47 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Andrew Melrose * New user account 18:10:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:21:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:36:00 -!- boily has joined. 18:53:34 -!- nys has quit (Quit: quit). 19:20:55 ais523: Now I need to circumvent your spam protections 19:21:04 my language generation bot needs that 19:21:20 how many generated languages shall it publish a day :D? 19:21:33 mroman: if it's something that would seriously benefit the wiki, I can give it an exemption 19:21:58 however, if you're generating unboundedly many languages, may as well just write a page about the generator, unless they're all individually interesting 19:21:59 it wouldn't benefit anything 19:22:21 see http://esolangs.org/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL 19:23:13 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1). 19:30:06 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 19:30:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:34:22 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:35:49 -!- S1 has joined. 19:35:51 -!- S1 has left. 19:38:17 -!- copumpkin has joined. 20:03:45 -!- Bicyclidine has joined. 20:24:05 fizzie: ah, well, I suppose I'd better wish you luck in getting a better offer then :p 20:33:36 That would be counterproductive from your point of view, since the other place's in Germany, though. 20:33:55 yes, but it shows how selfless and caring I am, see? 20:34:10 Ohhh, right, I see. Of course. 20:34:30 that way if you get a good offer in germany you'll be overcome by guilt at not being able to reward my kindness, and be forced to turn it down. 20:35:03 (I like how you were bemused at either me having a non-selfish bone in my body, or possibly anyone at all having a non-selfish bone in their body.) 20:35:10 The latter. 20:39:53 As for physically moving those things, they are kind of heavy. I mean, I'm sure the post would take them, but I think it'd be at least a "Medium Parcel". 20:39:58 Though we were thinking of doing some trips to Scotland (depending on how vacations and the like happen), and I guess most of the rest of UK would be more or less on the way there. 20:40:02 Well, we'll see. This all would most likely be start of next year at the earliest. 20:40:22 -!- Slereah has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:40:39 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:41:14 fizzie: I am a little worried that this would put us at a very critical mass for a UK #esoteric meetup. 20:42:37 it's going to be a problem when you start fissioning and irradiate the place 20:42:59 sounds nice 20:44:26 it takes like a day to travel from Scotland to the south of the UK 20:44:39 although I guess Hexham's quite close to the south part of Scotland 20:44:56 make all the others travel to scotland instead then 20:45:15 Are you planning an #esoteric meetup in UK? 20:45:24 I've had enough trouble keeping track of all the Finnish people, I have no idea (a) how many UKers there are, and (b) how they've spread across the place. 20:45:47 mroman: no 20:45:50 we're scared of the possibility 20:46:09 most likely because it'd raise the chance of elliott and Taneb knowingly meeting a long way above zero 20:46:23 go team Canada! 20:46:50 (btw, where's that madbr guy...) 20:46:54 fizzie: of the people who are around these days, I think me, ais523, ph, taneb, impomatic? 20:47:14 I didn't know that impomatic was British, but in retrospect, I should have guessed 20:48:07 Is Lord British British, by the way? 20:48:19 "British / American", says Wikipedia, so I guess kinda. 20:48:36 the Lord British Postulate is hilarious 20:49:08 (basically, the defining characteristic of Lord British the fictional character is indestructability; thus, whenever he's placed in a computer game, people inevitably find some way to kill him) 20:50:34 if you meet lord british on the road, eh 21:02:15 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:21:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:29:13 elliott, impomatic is british? 21:29:25 unless I'm seriously mistaken 21:30:42 interesting, the logs about the `slist self-deletion which were linked were exactly one year ago. which caused me some confusion just now when trying to bring up today's logs from the address bar :P 21:31:03 oerjan, the gigapause was a year-long 21:31:08 Almost precisely 21:31:10 heh 21:31:41 * oerjan corrects a 3 to 4 21:33:11 Also I fear we've lost a bftxtgen 21:33:29 Taneb: hm what? 21:33:37 `? bf_txtgen hi! 21:33:37 bf_txtgen hi!? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:33:40 oops 21:33:44 `! bf_txtgen hi! 21:33:48 43 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>++++>><<<<-]>.+.>+. [187] 21:34:31 Oooh I did not know you could do that 21:34:44 we've got most of the things ported to HackEgo from EgoBot mostly working now. there probably are still exceptions. 21:35:26 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:35:37 `! help 21:35:38 ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/help: not found 21:35:44 Arguably, maybe that should do something? 21:35:49 fizzie: ok maybe not that one. 21:37:08 also, `! c still has the flaw that it no longer supports whole modules are arguments, because gcc now accepts so much junk inside main that everything tends to compile with the inside-main version first. 21:37:28 however, the `cc command does the whole module version, so it's no disaster. 21:37:36 *as arguments 21:38:12 (although it might be confusing for people who expect `cc to work as a synonym for gcc 21:38:15 ) 21:39:01 `cc b;main(a){for(;a<501;)printf("%d\\n",b+=a&-a++);} 21:39:01 ​/tmp/a.c:1:1: warning: data definition has no type or storage class [enabled by default] \ /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:1:23: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ [enabled by default] \ 1 \ 3 \ 4 \ 8 \ 9 \ 11 \ 12 \ 20 \ 21 \ 23 \ 24 \ 28 \ 29 \ 31 \ 32 \ 48 \ 49 \ 51 \ 52 \ 56 \ 57 \ 59 \ 21:39:15 I keep getting caught by the \n \\n thing. 21:39:21 oh, and HackEgo doesn't have haskell. the infrastructure for _calling_ haskell from `! is all there, just not an actually installed ghc. 21:39:34 Is it possible in Windows Vista to make a custom keyboard layout and set it for only one account? 21:39:35 what will this channel do without haskell 21:40:18 we _do_ still have lambdabot. 21:40:27 although it doesn't accept whole modules. 21:40:52 `fueue 65 H 21:40:52 A 21:41:01 `file bin/fueue 21:41:01 bin/fueue: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, BuildID[sha1]=0x917b248982ab816231581ea2110accfe9423e4ec, not stripped 21:41:26 i don't recall which fueue interpreter that was generated from. 21:41:56 oh, and of course all the `userinterps from EgoBot haven't been transferred afaik. 21:42:16 which includes some implementations of esolangs in other languages. 21:43:14 `url bin/! 21:43:14 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/%21 21:45:54 -!- nys has joined. 21:46:25 `run (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo "echo '"'The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/` for a list.') >ibin/help 21:46:26 No output. 21:46:34 `! help 21:46:35 ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/help: Permission denied 21:46:42 `run chmod +x ibin/help 21:46:44 No output. 21:46:45 `! help 21:46:46 ibin/help: 3: ibin/help: Syntax error: Unterminated quoted string 21:46:54 `cat bin/help 21:46:54 cat: bin/help: No such file or directory 21:46:58 `cat ibin/help 21:46:59 ​#!/bin/sh \ echo 'The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/` for a list. 21:47:28 `run sed -i "2s/$/'/" ibin/help 21:47:29 No output. 21:47:37 `! help 21:47:38 The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/` for a list. 21:47:43 oops 21:47:55 `run sed -i "2s/` for/ for/" ibin/help 21:47:56 bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file 21:48:04 `run sed -i '2s/` for/ for/' ibin/help 21:48:06 No output. 21:48:09 `! help 21:48:09 The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/ for a list. 21:48:17 `ls ibin/ 21:48:17 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ u 21:48:30 `url ibin/ 21:48:31 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin 21:49:29 `run sed -i '2s/ls /url /' ibin/help 21:49:30 No output. 21:50:02 I have just written the most commented brainfuck file I have ever written 21:50:07 `run url ibin/; echo hi 21:50:08 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin \ hi 21:50:18 `! help 21:50:18 The ! command calurl various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/ for a list. 21:50:23 ff 21:50:32 `revert 21:50:33 Done. 21:50:55 `run sed -i '2s/ls ibin/url ibin/' ibin/help 21:50:56 No output. 21:50:59 `! help 21:50:59 The ! command calurl various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list. 21:51:05 what now 21:51:05 nice 21:51:19 `run sed -i 's/calurl/calls/' ibin/help 21:51:20 No output. 21:51:26 fizzie: your privmsg got in the way 21:52:13 fizzie: it is not polite to do other changes while someone is trying to edit a file hth 21:52:19 https://gist.github.com/Taneb/ed9bb3db765d16bf6c3f 21:52:33 oerjan: you could just unpack a ghc/hp tarball probably 21:52:36 if there's enough disk 21:52:37 (it was for the CTF today) 21:52:40 binary tarball that is 21:52:52 (input must begin with an ASCII digit and be newline-terminated) 21:53:24 does hackego not have a ghc in it already 21:53:43 `ghc --version 21:53:44 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ghc: not found 21:53:48 :( 21:54:00 why does `! glass need a cache anyway. 21:54:31 `! help 21:54:32 The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list. 21:54:49 (only two teams solved the brainfuck challenge and the other team only solved it for some inputs) 21:54:53 Bicyclidine: thanks 21:55:12 oerjan: you can store things in it i think 21:57:16 Bicyclidine: HackEgo used to have ghc but then it moved servers. 21:57:51 what will this channel do without haskell 21:57:52 oerjan: I don't think I was at least consciously doing any changes. 21:57:59 so there are probably still broken haskell-based commands in it. unless they were all statically linked. 21:58:12 fizzie: yeah `! glass has a cache for some reason. 21:58:19 That's a nasty. 21:58:22 `! glass {M[mxA!yO!a<1>=b<0>=c<20>=/ccc*<1>xs.?=b*y(on).?" "yo.?ba*aa*b*xa.?==\]} 21:58:23 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 21:58:29 (I do like Glass.) 21:59:00 wtf 21:59:04 Even though it took me an absurd amount of attempts to get that written, as the version history shows. 21:59:18 i vaguely do seem to recall glass used to have some preserved state, yeah 21:59:25 Bicyclidine, I started learning Racket this week and I know this is shocking but I think I like it a lot 21:59:43 fizzie: put it on the wiki 22:00:09 There is already a Fibonacci sequence in the wiki, though a lot longer. 22:00:14 ah. 22:00:25 Taneb: i don't know racket 22:00:50 Arguably more proper, there's a "f" function and it uses locals instead of object-scope variables even though those involve (_x) in place of x. 22:01:09 Bicyclidine, it's like Scheme 22:01:18 i know that much 22:01:23 I think it's like Scheme in the way that GHC is like Haskell 22:01:25 and whatever gibberish sgeo comes up with 22:01:30 hm 22:01:36 i think ghc is more standards conformant than racket 22:02:04 racket kinda does its own thing, i mean it used to be "PLT Scheme" but now it ain't 22:02:25 you have to specify language r6rs or wetf 22:02:33 `run sed -i '2s/command/or interp command/' ibin/help 22:02:35 No output. 22:02:39 `! help 22:02:40 The ! or interp command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list. 22:02:51 what's the 2 for 22:02:59 to only affect the second line 22:03:06 ooh 22:03:21 Standard HAskell should just run directly with GHC, right? Standard Scheme isn't always valid Racket code 22:03:29 sort of redundant there, but i just kept editing my first version 22:03:36 Racket uses iimmutable cons cells 22:03:51 Sgeo: actually ghc deviates from the standard in some minor points. 22:04:26 and 7.10 will get far worse, although hopefully it will come with a new standard version. 22:05:11 (the main point until now is that ghc drops Eq and Show as superclasses of Num.) 22:05:57 I can understand Num not requiring Show 22:06:04 but Num not requiring Eq's a bit hard to get my head around 22:06:06 is it for things like CReal? 22:06:26 i think there is some discussion going on about exactly _how_ much 7.10 will change. someone started protesting the Prelude changes. 22:06:35 7.10 is doing AMP, right? 22:06:42 ais523: yeah and also for things like Num b => Num (a -> b) 22:06:51 adenosine monophosphate 22:07:27 how popular are non-ghc Haskell impls? 22:07:29 elliott: yeah, but there's also a plan to move Foldable and Traversable to the Prelude, which has caused controversy. i'd know more but all the golfing recently has caused my r/haskell reading to slip :P 22:07:35 popular enough for anyone to care about compatibility with them? 22:07:49 oerjan: is it just the regular "nothing should change ever" 22:07:55 ais523, nope :) 22:08:00 oh, is it because it'd make foldr more polymorphic and so errors and such? 22:08:06 Some of my friends and I were going to write one, though 22:08:16 elliott: well they're planning to change the types of foldr in the Prelude, for example. 22:08:17 Taneb: a Haskell impl? interesting 22:08:19 iirc 22:08:21 right 22:08:24 Num (a -> b) <-- what 22:08:26 Probably the best thing about Racket is the emphasis on error reporting 22:08:33 Bicyclidine: like in mathematics. 22:08:38 (f + g)(x) = f(x) + g(x) 22:08:38 Bicyclidine: pointwise addition, multiplication etc. 22:08:39 ais523, on the basis that YHC is unmaintained, we were going to make a New York Haskell Compiler 22:08:44 god. 22:08:46 Bicyclidine: f + g = \x.(f x + g x) 22:08:55 Taneb: is this purely just for the name? 22:08:59 ais523, yeah 22:09:06 And, well, we're in York 22:09:27 every passing moment i grow more and moe sure that maths notation is the world's enemy 22:09:35 If I did lenses in Factor, I'm going to need to do them in reverse 22:09:48 anyway someone define the inner product space of square integrable functions in haskell for me, thx 22:09:58 So it is /a/ York Haskell Compiler 22:10:01 Bicyclidine: my notation was verity, at least the bit past the = 22:10:04 And it's new relative to YHC 22:10:14 ais523: not that part 22:10:29 how does a lambda look in Haskell? \x -> ? 22:11:00 > (\x -> x) 4 22:11:04 4 22:11:07 guess so 22:11:20 i think i'm just grumpy because vector calculus notation is really stupid on several levels 22:11:33 btw don't use the word "grumpy" on twitter, i have two different grumpy cats spam-following me 22:11:42 I want to invent a kind of Z-machine terminal codes and then write the interpreter so that it optionally can use them. I wanted to know how to write C program that can connect to other program using its stdin/stdout and interpret them in this way. 22:11:46 > (\(id -> x) -> x) 4 22:11:48 4 22:11:52 Bicyclidine: btw the pointwise Num thing can be extended to (Num a, Applicative f) => Num (f a) hth 22:12:06 Sgeo: err, what? 22:12:10 i'm so glad we have a strongly typed language to do all our duck typing in 22:12:20 ais523: view patterns 22:12:21 you can have strong duck types 22:12:26 Sgeo: that doesn't help 22:12:50 (id -> x) is a pattern that runs id thingtomatch and then matches that against x 22:12:55 So, equivalent to x 22:12:56 Bicyclidine: lambdabot _used_ to have the Num b => Num (a -> b) instance, but it was removed, i think they must have considered it too confusing 22:13:11 > 1 2 3 22:13:14 Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a1 -> t)) 22:13:14 arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_1123’ 22:13:14 from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a -> a2 -> t), 22:13:14 GHC.Num.Num a2, 22:13:14 GHC.Num.Num a) 22:13:34 anyway where's my inner product chop chop 22:13:58 exterior product would be good too let's get this algebra motherfuckery goin 22:14:10 @let import Data.NumInstances 22:14:12 Defined. 22:14:19 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 22:14:35 -!- ais523 has quit. 22:14:52 Are these @let imports channel scoped? 22:14:57 Or user scoped? 22:15:04 Just hoping that it's not bot scoped 22:15:06 > 1 2 22:15:16 1 22:15:22 hahaha 22:15:33 so uh 22:15:37 Bicyclidine: for an inner product of (a -> b) you need your a to be a finite type, like a Bounded Enum. 22:15:42 does anyone know q? or k, i guess? 22:15:49 is that the apl thing 22:15:51 this just hit hacker news: http://www.kparc.com/$/edit.k 22:15:55 yeah Bicyclidine i think so 22:16:08 oh, yea, there was an article about that 22:16:12 apparently that file implements a "text editor", for some definition of text editor 22:16:30 oerjan: that's some weird-as calculus 22:16:32 ass 22:16:36 weird asssss 22:17:13 drdanmaku: apl is notoriously terse http://catpad.net/michael/apl/ 22:17:28 Bicyclidine: well a is just your list of coordinate indices, really 22:17:29 k is one of a few languages based on it but not using the weird fuckin character set 22:17:31 yes, i've seen it before, but i was wondering if anyone here actually knew it 22:17:39 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:17:43 i know a tiny bit. i have a copy of the book somewhere 22:17:52 we also have a bot for j 22:17:56 ) 8 22:18:01 ] 8 22:18:02 i don't remember the character, though. 22:18:04 Bot changed name and prefix 22:18:06 sgeo does. thank god 22:18:08 [ 9 22:18:08 Sgeo: 9 22:18:11 oh nice 22:18:18 [ 1 2 3 + 4 5 6 22:18:19 Sgeo: 5 7 9 22:18:31 Bicyclidine: I just saw it in use today I think 22:18:41 i think if apl used prefix or postfix notation i'd have a chance of understanding it 22:18:44 someone did bring up the point that bugs have been reliably correlated with LOC 22:18:44 as is i'm pretty lost 22:18:55 but edit.k seems...i don't know if i want to go that far *-* 22:18:55 haha did they do those studies in apl 22:18:58 here's a guess: no 22:19:15 APL is kind of like somewhat prefix. 22:19:26 yeah and that's more confusing than actually prefix, you know? 22:19:30 shachaf: it's bot scoped. 22:19:47 i had a prof once who found apl really inspiring 22:19:54 ? 22:19:59 he does automata fpgas and wrote sort in vax microcode 22:20:00 Bicyclidine: unless properly documented and commented and explained, APL is impossible to read. 22:20:00 odd dude 22:20:21 automata fpga? I fail to grasp the link between the two concepts. 22:20:37 helloily! 22:20:50 quinthellopia! 22:20:53 uh, some kind of general purpose processor based on spatially coordinated automata... i hvaen't looked at it in a while. 22:21:23 nope, not helping hth 22:21:27 boily: one of these days we'll figure out a way to be online at the same time for more than a handful of minutes, eh? 22:21:50 well, i'll look it up i guess. 22:21:54 so the k people are implementing a "kOS" with graphics and input and stuff, that is a little exciting if only for the weird factor 22:22:02 quintopia: indeed. we ought to synchronize our ircing. also, did you just canadian-eh me? 22:22:29 it's not canadian anymore! anyone can do it now! 22:22:42 multiculturalism, eh? 22:23:01 well, i cannot get online during the hours you can, so i think it is not possible 22:23:05 unless you like staying up late 22:23:31 hm, guess he moved 22:23:42 but on non-workdays we could? 22:23:45 I could be having had up stayed late, but the last few weeks were a little bit overworking. 22:23:48 Bicyclidine: who? 22:23:52 ...actually he was only there for five months, random 22:24:21 quintopia: we could. like this weekend there's nothing special, so about 9am~9pm. 22:24:38 we in trondheim don't want none of your imperialist canadianism, sjø 22:24:48 http://www.cellmatrix.com/entryway/entryway/core.html there we go 22:24:53 boily: i will probably find a period of time between those hours tomorrow 22:25:06 oerjan: sjø? is that like «tsé»? 22:25:17 um not much? 22:25:38 APL ought to be simple-ish to read since it only has two (IIRC) levels of precedence 22:25:47 it's supposedly a contraction of "ser du ~ you see", i think 22:25:54 quintopia: otherwise, I'm there Mon-Fri 6am~7am and 7pm~9pm, Sat-Sun Random~Random. 22:26:15 oerjan: tsé → tu sais → you know → y'know. 22:26:30 mao tstung 22:26:42 si seulement c'était aussi simple... 22:27:41 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 22:27:41 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:27:50 boily: ok so essentially similar 22:28:15 tsétsé fly 22:28:19 sup 22:28:40 inf 22:28:44 oerjan: that one really is spelled like that. (or with an hyphen?) 22:30:08 oh. “Tsetse include all the species in the genus Glossina, which are generally placed in their own family, Glossinidae.” 22:30:14 * boily looks at Bicyclidine 22:30:17 boily: i'm asleep 6am-7am mon-fri, and at work mon-thurs 7pm-9pm. 7pm-9pm friday would be possible if i had no social life :P 22:30:37 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:30:55 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:31:00 drdanmaku: I know some things about K 22:31:03 drdanmaku: I know J better 22:31:08 ah, social life... even Taneb yielded to having a social life. 22:31:20 sadly the HN comments on that story are the predictable boring complaints about unreadability when I saw it 22:31:43 elliott: yeah, the HN thread is useless, but i'm still interested in K 22:31:48 luckily so did this channel 22:32:05 i did find https://github.com/kevinlawler/kona/ 22:32:23 boily: if you could just get on from work :P 22:32:24 elliott: that article seemed to claim the k interpreter "outperformed" c, do you know how that could be the case? 22:32:27 drdanmaku: yes. it is difficult to play with K because everything is buried under things costing trillions of dollars or whatever. 22:32:36 * FireFly remembers a quote about K and its implementation fitting into a screenful of C (at one point) 22:33:13 also it doesn't help that the C implementation of Kona is written in the style of K 22:33:18 e.g. https://github.com/kevinlawler/kona/blob/master/src/0.c 22:33:20 and J 22:33:23 drdanmaku: because the K code and the C code would do different things, basically... you could write the equivalent C just as well but language implementations can optimise things like tight inner loops of operations and make efficient patterns idiomatic and natural for certain use-cases 22:33:34 http://archive.vector.org.uk/art10501320 mentions the C thing 22:33:35 i don't know how i'm going to learn anything about this language if even the impl is unreadable :< 22:33:44 drdanmaku: actually that code looks nothing like the true K style, imo 22:34:05 drdanmaku: http://www.nsl.com/papers/origins.htm 22:34:33 http://www.nsl.com/ is generally a nice resource 22:34:49 one character identifers ;_; 22:34:53 That snippet is also on the J page: http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Essays/Incunabulum 22:35:39 that interpreter fragment isn't actually that hard to read, you just have to spend a little bit of time familiarising yourself with the definitions it's using first 22:36:00 i still have nightmares about chaitin apl lisp, ok 22:36:07 quintopia: I am also googlehangoutable, which probably is the best way to chat with me on Monday nights. 22:36:27 (and during the day, but then you'd have to find a way to find my work e-mail address :P) 22:36:54 (which isn't very hard to find, and or reconstruct.) 22:37:16 drdanmaku: anyway, J and K have a lot of similarities (though they are by no means identical), J isn't open source but it is freely available unlike the K stuff, http://jsoftware.com/, and it has a pretty nice graphical environment with a lot of interactive-ish tutorials and good documentation 22:38:13 what's the main difference between them? i'm probably going to stick with K/Kona because it's open source 22:38:17 J is open-source actually, since 2012 IIRC 22:38:24 oh is it 22:38:28 The source-code is GPL-licensed nowadays 22:38:42 oh, huh 22:38:43 http://www.jsoftware.com/source.htm 22:39:05 drdanmaku: I wonder if Kona actually implements, e.g. the GUI stuff that many K programs use. 22:39:16 it may not be the best thing to learn K with 22:39:46 a language environment aimed at financiers is going to be hard to play with for the reasons you mentioned above, though 22:40:01 J/K don't really have that much of a language/implementation divide, so unofficial interpreters might not really be what you want 22:40:05 that's unfortunate, it looked interesting 22:40:14 drdanmaku: yeah :) you can find a copy of an older version, K3, if you poke around enough 22:40:20 J is a lot more accessible 22:40:44 There's also #jsoftware for J and other APL-family languages, by the way 22:50:57 How much discussion of APL itself is there on #jsoftware? 22:57:02 they have to find a font that supports the discussion first. 23:12:25 One of the people there knows only APL at least 23:13:18 Though most of the discussion is about J, when there is any discussion at all 23:36:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:55:59 Is it really too much to want both a well-curated app store and the option to go outside it? 23:58:30 Sgeo: Well, I think it is a good idea, at least. 23:58:54 Apple fights against option to go outside it, Android marketplace is not really well maintained