00:00:00 * Taneb goodnight 00:00:12 -!- Froox has changed nick to Frooxius. 00:00:30 * boily waves the goodnight dance at Taneb 00:27:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:27:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:39:42 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 00:39:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:40:29 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 00:59:05 -!- damio has joined. 00:59:23 -!- boily has quit (Quit: UNCOMPRESSED CHICKEN). 01:09:39 -!- elliott has joined. 01:27:26 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 01:29:55 callforjudgement: is weboflies still a thing? 01:30:07 elliott: the code still exists; I haven't worked on it for ages 01:30:35 also, it's 32-bit and doesn't compile as 64-bit because it's so level, which isn't necessarily lethal but does make it rather harder to work on 01:30:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:30:50 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 01:30:56 * elliott nods 01:30:58 "so level" :) 01:31:05 so low-level 01:31:24 I lost my copy of the code on an old hard drive (and it was probably an old version anyway) and could probably use learning some things from it now, would you mind giving me it again? 01:31:49 just trying to figure out which of these files are it and which are other things, I need a src/ folder 01:31:56 -!- damio has left. 01:34:11 hmm, one of the files here has uncertain copyright information 01:34:45 it's the return values of the KDGKBENT ioctl for all possible arguments, determined experimentally 01:35:50 sounds uncopyrightable 01:36:02 I'm not sure if it's coming from some keyboard driver, for instance 01:36:05 I'm busy looking up what it does to find out 01:36:06 but gpl at worst, I suppose? 01:36:18 at least, the reason I had to determine it experimentally was that I couldn't see any pattern 01:36:25 and it was needed for programs to run 01:37:13 the problem with ioctls is that they're almost undocumented 01:37:17 you just get one line of info on each 01:37:24 let me check the kernel source, see if that helps 01:38:45 bleh, this always takes so long to decompress 01:40:29 keep a git checkout? :) 01:40:41 considering it 01:40:44 it sort of sounds like the kind of file that'd be very easy to generate... 01:40:51 although it's nice to always have the source to your own kernel, exactly 01:41:23 looks like fun. http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/tty/vt/keyboard.c#L1783 01:41:51 ooh, I think I've found basically the same info in the Linux kernel 01:42:02 drivers/tty/vt/defkeymap.c_shipped 01:42:30 however, it's in a different format 01:42:53 tell you what, I'll ship you weboflies without ktt.c, and you can work out how to generate it yourself if you need it 01:43:24 the file can definitely be generated, that's how I got it in the first plcae 01:43:29 actually, I should just ship you the generator, if I still have it 01:43:55 "aimake.config" 01:44:01 wow, that's… an old version of aimake 01:45:02 I seem to have part of it, but the rest was probably hand-edited in Emacs 01:45:42 elliott: anyway, nethack4.org/pastebin/weboflies.c 01:45:49 let me know when you have it 01:46:12 pah, no https :) got it 01:46:21 erm, no I haven't 01:46:22 it's a 404 01:46:25 err, .tgz 01:46:34 thanks 01:47:45 ais523: nice tarbomb, btw 01:47:51 err, sorry 01:48:04 you can't expect me to package it properly when I'm busy trying to figure out which files are which in a hurry 01:48:25 really, whether a tar bombs or not should be a recipient-end setting rather than a sender-end setting, but it isn't, so sorry for setting it wrong 01:48:42 yeah, I'm not actually mad 01:49:17 when I sent violin to alt.lang.intercal, I went to a bunch of effort making sure that I didn't accidentally do anything wrong in the shar 01:49:26 because apparently, screwing up a shar even slightly gets you flamed 01:49:35 (this may not be true nowadays, but it was back when shar was written, apparently) 01:50:55 violin? 01:51:52 it's a program for working out the effect of assignment statements in INTERCAL 01:51:58 @google violin intercal 01:51:59 http://www.theviolinsite.com/music_dictionary/interval.html 01:51:59 Title: Interval - Music Dictionary 01:52:00 this is incredibly nontrivial, and all known INTERCAL interps get it wrong 01:52:09 anyway, see my recent post to alt.lang.intercal 01:52:18 err, in the presence of operand overloading 01:52:19 correcting "c" to "v" is so helpful! *admires google* 01:52:19 without, it's easy 01:52:46 @google violin "intercal" 01:52:47 https://groups.google.com/d/forum/alt.lang.intercal 01:52:52 anyway, I /finally/ managed to do addition in INTERCAL without any sort of loop, where the length of the program is O(1) on the number of bits 01:53:14 ais523: congrats 01:53:18 and without using the standard library, and without an FFI 01:53:29 hmm, I guess a 32-bit chroot is the easiest way to compile it 01:53:31 the program doesn't actually /run/ yet because I haven't linked up C-INTERCAL to violin yet 01:53:57 also, this is the first time I have ever written a single assignment statement that takes four minutes to run 01:54:25 DO :1 <- '"?.1$.2"~"#0$#65535"'$'"&.1$.2"~"#0$#65535"' is the statement 01:54:42 I bet weboflies would be a bit easier with the additional container features that've been added since 01:54:43 but it's only so slow because I previously redefined :1: DO :2 <- :1/"'"'#65535$#65535'~'"'?"'"'V"'&.4$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$.9'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~'#32767$#1'"$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#65535'"$.4'~'#0$#65535'"$.9 01:54:54 elliott: it uses most of the container features that existed at the time 01:55:15 yeah. there are some more now though 01:55:34 elliott: also, there's some debug code that makes my own homedir visible inside the container; you will probably have to remove it or at least change the username 01:55:42 heh 01:55:47 ais523: presumably once you integrate it with C-INTERCAL, if you try to do a reverse assignment which is impossible, you'll get an error like BROKEN INSTRUMENT 01:55:50 I mainly want to learn things from it, but executing it would be convenient too 01:56:05 coppro: the current error message is THE LAWS OF MATHEMATICS DO NOT DISTORT THAT FAR or something like that 01:56:07 it's a little sad how you need root 01:56:07 but changing it might work 01:56:16 for a program designed to do complete isolation 01:56:20 ais523: that's a good one too 01:56:28 ais523: but you should definitely refer to the name "violin" in at least one error 01:56:38 yes, I get disappointed when people change error messages in INTERCAL, just because the new one is good 01:56:42 but the old one is often good too 01:56:50 e.g. PROGRAM HAS DISAPPEARED INTO THE BLACK LAGOON is great 01:56:59 yeah, that is one of the more fantastic ones 01:57:06 wait, no, that one wasn't a replacement 01:57:23 nope 01:57:25 I was thinking of THE NEXT STACK RUPTURES. ALL DIE! OH, THE EMBARRASSMENT 01:57:33 which replaced PROGRAM ATTEMPTED TO EXIT WITHOUT ERROR MESSAGE 01:58:43 (BLACK LAGOON is a NEXT stack overflow, RUPTURES is a NEXT stack underflow, you can't really blame me for getting them muddled) 01:59:50 I love ERROR HANDLER PRINTED SOME SNIDE REMARK 02:00:05 coppro: right; there's actually WARNING HANDLER PRINTED SNIDE REMARK too 02:00:28 ERROR TYPE 621 ENCOUNTERED is fun too 02:00:41 I documented it as "The compiler encountered error E621 (*note E621::)." 02:01:00 although I also explained what situations cause it, after that, so as to not be completely recursively useless 02:01:21 fwiw, my favourite out of the messages I personally wrote is YOU HAVE TOO MUCH ROPE TO HANG YOURSELF 02:03:00 haha 02:05:01 INTERCAL error messaging is an art, and I don't always succeed, it's pretty hard 02:05:23 program attempted to exit without error message <-- good 02:06:01 and it isn't used anywhere right now 02:06:18 it'd be a decent replacement for PROGRAM FELL OFF THE END, actually 02:06:27 but you have the usual problems with stdlib there 02:11:36 -!- Tobor has joined. 02:12:06 hmm… if you run off the end of an asm program, do you run into the start of libc? 02:12:17 if you did, I'd imagine it would put up a big PLEASE KNOCK BEFORE ENTERING sign too 02:13:37 do any static linkers actually do that, i wonder 02:14:19 ais523: THIS SOFTWARE DOES NOT SUPPORT BACK DOORS 02:14:42 coppro: well part of the problem is, it has to start with "DO" or "PLEASE" 02:16:38 ais523: that was an error 02:16:50 ais523: incidentally, could you achieve something like weboflies by just running linux in bochs or something? 02:16:56 and patching out stuff like timers to be deterministic 02:17:39 elliott: yes; actually, weboflies was originally a project to build something like /that/ 02:17:45 via other means 02:17:57 because I thought it'd be easier to get everything deterministic that way 02:18:27 I'm not sure you were correct :) 02:18:37 as in 02:18:41 I'm not sure weboflies is easier than patching bochs 02:18:43 -!- Tobor has left. 02:19:14 it's a little unnerving that it's so hard to provide completely reproducible computations... 02:20:36 I may well have been wrong 02:27:39 why are dolook and do_look different functions 02:27:47 I really need to get clang refactoring set up 02:28:17 coppro: in what? weboflies? if not, this is probably the wrong channel 02:28:38 if NetHack 4, though, the answer is "the devteam are bad at naming things, and possibly didn't even realise there was a near-clash" 02:32:11 ais523: btw, does weboflies have, like, a license? 02:32:18 not yet 02:32:23 it's default-all-rights-reserved 02:32:47 if you want to use some of the code in something else directly, or even to finish it and make it work, we could try to agree a license 02:33:05 ais523: err, that was meant to be in #nethack4 02:33:40 * elliott nods. I'm mostly interested in seeing how certain things are done rather than lifting any code, I was mainly asking in terms of redistribution in case I wanted to talk about what it's doing with people I know 02:34:05 wow, I forgot it does graphics 02:34:09 well it was meant to be secret 02:34:23 elliott: I actually got Battle for Wesnoth to load in it 02:34:29 but never managed to actually provide input past that point 02:34:42 then decided I should probably be working on getting X working inside rather than SDL's framebuffer support 02:34:44 that's about where I stopped 02:37:12 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 02:37:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:37:28 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 02:39:40 ais523: hmm, I wonder how badly getrandom(2) breaks weboflies 02:40:16 I'd make it return a constant 02:40:20 or step through a lookup table in order 02:40:22 or something 02:40:36 I remember installing /dev/zero as /dev/null… 02:41:32 ais523: Maybe just it use a weboflies PRNG. 02:41:42 pikhq: that would be the eventual solution 02:41:45 Google is useless for weboflies 02:41:52 Well no shit. 02:41:58 although, getrandom and /dev/random are both intended for gathering seed entropy 02:41:59 ais523's brain is what we got. 02:42:08 so returning zero constantly would probably have the intended result 02:42:10 Oh 02:42:26 Sgeo: weboflies used to be called The Secret Project 02:42:31 until #esoteric managed to coax its name out of me 02:43:03 getrandom can also be used for /dev/urandom access. 02:43:22 What... is it, if I may ask? Something to make things deterministic? 02:43:40 Yes. It's intended as a TAS tool for Linux binaries. 02:44:09 Making it *really dang awesome*, if a bit frightening. 02:44:33 TAS as in tool-assisted speedrun? 02:44:36 Yes. 02:44:50 o.O 02:49:57 emacs speedrun (4m21s) 03:13:45 Funness I realized is possible just now: 03:14:11 ( :let data X = X.X 03:14:11 defined 03:14:14 > :t X 03:14:15 :1:1: parse error on input ‘:’ 03:14:19 ( :t X 03:14:19 X : Type 03:14:19 X.X : X 03:15:17 (It miscolors too for some reason.) 03:52:24 What's X.X? 03:52:41 Oh, just a constructor name 03:59:15 I love how the table listing Scala annotations and Java equivalent has scala.reflect.BeanProperty's equivalent as being... Design Pattern 04:04:30 Scala unapply is basically pattern synonyms, right? 04:25:38 -!- upgrayeddd has left. 04:53:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:53:08 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 04:53:13 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 04:53:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: ZZZ). 05:00:55 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 05:07:27 Apple's anti-jailbreak propaganda states that "Additionally, third-party apps that use the Apple Push Notification Service have had difficulty receiving notifications or received notifications that were intended for a different hacked device. " 05:07:49 If notificat... oh, for a different -hacked- device. Was going to note that that kind of implies security is really bad 05:10:37 https://discussions.apple.com/message/18740587 05:10:38 o.O 05:19:14 Does Apple rely on manual review for security things that a normal OS would provide? e.g. restricting direct access to hardware? 05:20:09 I doubt it, they may have some sort of review script 05:22:32 I meant in terms of, using a review process instead of, say, rings at the OS level 05:22:53 So that the device assumes that all code is fully trustworthy, and bad apps are blocked at the store level 05:23:11 Which would make jailbreaking and using arbitrary apps more dangerous than using Android 05:23:40 Reason I think of this is jailbreak 05:23:41 oops 05:23:48 http://www.computerworld.com/article/2491294/malware-vulnerabilities/the-pangu-jailbreak-for-ios-could-turn-into-a-sinister-attack.html 05:24:00 "Apple thoroughly reviews applications in the App Store to make sure APIs that open up access to functions like a phone's microphone or camera aren't available. But those with special certificates can allow their applications to do anything." 05:24:18 Could be inaccurate statement or me misinterpreting it 05:24:45 But it makes it sound like the APIs are only restricted by the review process, not OS level functionality 05:33:31 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 05:33:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:34:15 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 05:41:48 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 05:44:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:45:21 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 06:00:37 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 06:00:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:00:57 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 06:03:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 06:04:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:06:41 Sgeo: iOS has pretty heavy sandboxing and security 06:06:57 there's some official pdfs about it you can find 06:07:06 (of course they will always paint the rosiest picture they can) 06:07:13 (but it's definitely not "everything runs in ring 0") 06:07:33 Hmm, ok 06:09:31 ps why are you trusting computerworld.com on technical operating system details 06:09:38 like, really. 06:20:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:20:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:22:45 Does Cydia have separate sections for sandboxed and non-sandboxed apps? 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08:21:17 callforjudgement: heh, does ioctl_test have to be ran on an actual VT? 08:21:27 I guess I need qemu 08:21:34 elliott: control-alt-f1? 08:26:10 callforjudgement: well, it's a VM 08:26:16 I suppose I can log into the VM's console 08:26:41 elliott: oh, the problem is that the VM doesn't allow you to send control-alt-F1? 08:26:52 no, just that I access it through ssh 08:26:54 so it's more work :p 08:26:59 (normally) 08:31:55 I seem to have missed what was going on, but it sounds hacky. 08:32:01 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:35:07 hm? 08:36:58 -!- scarf has joined. 08:37:16 As in, are you building something in particular, or just playing around? 08:38:59 -!- scarf has changed nick to ais523. 08:39:15 fizzie: he asked for weboflies source for some unknown reason 08:39:21 and is now presumably trying to get it to work 08:39:22 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:39:55 Unknown but nefarious reason. 08:43:34 I've just had reproducible/deterministic stuff on the mind lately. 08:43:38 it reminded me of weboflies. 08:43:43 and I felt like reading it again. 08:46:57 hmm, is there any way to attach an actual tty to a weboflies program? so you don't have to send everything keys entirely from the debug menu 08:47:09 (but time is frozen between keypresess, while it's waiting, or such) 08:47:14 if not, maybe I'll try and patch it in (badly) 08:47:33 elliott: I was planning for that to be a wrapper around weboflies, eventually 08:48:49 right 08:51:54 Can't seem to mentally parse that as web-of-lies instead of web-o'-flies. 08:52:13 we-bo'-flies? 08:52:35 Fruit flies and webo flies. 08:52:46 Oh look Scala's fixity rules are simpler than Haskells 08:55:03 fizzie: nobody can 09:33:50 -!- impomatic_ has joined. 09:45:33 Scala for syntax doesn't assume >>= 09:53:24 -!- Frooxius has quit (*.net *.split). 09:53:24 -!- heroux has quit (*.net *.split). 09:53:24 -!- applybot has quit (*.net *.split). 09:53:24 -!- olsner has quit (*.net *.split). 09:53:25 -!- heroux_ has changed nick to heroux. 09:53:39 -!- heroux has changed nick to 14WAADDIM. 09:53:50 -!- Frooxius has joined. 09:53:50 -!- heroux has joined. 09:53:50 -!- applybot has joined. 09:53:50 -!- olsner has joined. 09:55:22 -!- erdic has quit (*.net *.split). 09:55:23 -!- J_Arcane has quit (*.net *.split). 09:56:07 -!- erdic has joined. 09:56:07 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 09:58:15 -!- newsham has quit (*.net *.split). 09:58:15 -!- Bike has quit (*.net *.split). 09:58:15 -!- viznut_ has quit (*.net *.split). 09:58:16 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (*.net *.split). 09:58:16 -!- TodPunk has quit (*.net *.split). 09:58:16 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 09:58:17 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 09:58:17 -!- tromp has quit (*.net *.split). 09:58:17 -!- nortti has quit (*.net *.split). 09:58:17 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split). 09:59:00 -!- newsham has joined. 09:59:00 -!- Bike has joined. 09:59:00 -!- viznut_ has joined. 09:59:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:59:00 -!- TodPunk has joined. 09:59:00 -!- coppro has joined. 09:59:00 -!- aloril has joined. 09:59:00 -!- tromp has joined. 09:59:00 -!- nortti has joined. 09:59:00 -!- quintopia has joined. 10:03:22 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 10:04:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:04:18 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 10:17:21 -!- boily has joined. 11:00:20 [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40661&oldid=40659 * Rdebath * (-131) Undo revision 40659 not very notable yet (no firsts), by [[Special:Contributions/204.154.122.227|204.154.122.227]] ([[User talk:204.154.122.227|talk]]) 11:03:49 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:04:25 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WHETTING CHICKEN). 11:28:59 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 11:29:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:36:37 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 11:46:54 -!- InputUsername has joined. 11:48:54 -!- InputUsername has quit (Client Quit). 11:51:17 -!- InputUsername has joined. 11:51:59 -!- InputUsername has left. 11:53:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:53:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:55:03 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 11:55:41 -!- scounder has joined. 12:02:10 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:02:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:17:42 -!- impomatic_ has joined. 12:20:21 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 12:20:35 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TomPN * New user account 12:21:38 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40662 * TomPN * (+4016) Musical notes is an esoteric programming language invented by Tom Price-Nicholson in 2014. 12:23:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:23:26 [wiki] [[Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40663&oldid=39452 * TomPN * (+58) 12:26:07 [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40664&oldid=40642 * TomPN * (+20) 12:26:45 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40665&oldid=40662 * TomPN * (-2) 12:27:44 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40666&oldid=40665 * TomPN * (-11) /* Syntax */ 12:27:56 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40667&oldid=40666 * TomPN * (-1) /* = Notes */ 12:29:00 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40668&oldid=40667 * TomPN * (+16) /* Line functions */ 12:34:41 Er. 12:34:58 Editing the Main Page like that seems rather unconventional. 12:36:39 ...especially for a brainfuck derivative... 12:36:56 [wiki] [[Musical-X]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40669&oldid=35550 * TomPN * (+67) 12:37:35 [wiki] [[Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40670&oldid=40663 * Ais523 * (-58) Undo revision 40663 by [[Special:Contributions/TomPN|TomPN]] ([[User talk:TomPN|talk]]): I don't think putting new esolangs on the Main Page like that is a good way to go about things 12:38:04 [wiki] [[Choon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40671&oldid=13383 * TomPN * (+60) 12:38:06 we could sensibly put a link to newpages on the main page, but recentchanges is probably better for the purpose given the nature of Esolang 12:38:36 also, wow is that page underlinked 12:38:55 I want to put {{wikify}} on it but that template doesn't exist on Esolang (and doesn't exist on Wikipedia either nowadays) 12:39:11 [wiki] [[Velato]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40672&oldid=33629 * TomPN * (+65) 12:39:27 I'll let oerjan shout at the author, oerjan's good at shouting 12:40:04 [wiki] [[Timesig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40673&oldid=16288 * TomPN * (+65) 12:40:16 I'm somewhat dubious about putting extra "see also" sections to each and every music-themed language, but at least it's not Main Page. 12:40:28 [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40674&oldid=40586 * Rdebath * (+1441) /* Performance Matrix */ 12:40:39 I think adding links to and from Velato, etc., is reasonable 12:40:47 adding them only one way is pretty like self-promotion, though 12:41:13 [wiki] [[Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40675&oldid=40516 * TomPN * (+59) 12:41:23 Category:Musical or something could exist, along the other "source format" ones. 12:41:28 I hadn't realized there's this many. 12:42:09 [wiki] [[User talk:TomPN]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40676 * Ais523 * (+495) /* Musical esolangs */ new section 12:42:16 and indeed, yes 12:42:23 this is starting to look like a good category option 12:44:17 [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40677&oldid=39198 * Ais523 * (+573) /* Musical esolangs */ new section 12:45:15 [wiki] [[User talk:TomPN]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40678&oldid=40676 * Ais523 * (+383) actually, probably this should be a category 12:45:31 "This design feature [of allowing the Chunnel to be flooded on demand] did not override the concerns of both nations' military leaders, and other concerns about hordes of undesirable tourists who would disrupt English habits of living." 12:45:43 at least Esolang still has the Orange Bar Of Doom 12:45:48 I guess drowning would have been a little too harsh even for tourists. 12:46:02 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40679&oldid=40668 * TomPN * (+115) 12:48:05 [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40680&oldid=40677 * TomPN * (+71) 12:50:47 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40681&oldid=40679 * Ais523 * (+2) style edits, typo fixes, and make this a little less tragically underlinked; move the "please create an interpreter" request to [[Category:Unimplemented]] which mostly serves that purpose 12:50:50 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40682&oldid=40681 * TomPN * (+13) /* Staff and ledger lines */ 12:51:20 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40683&oldid=40682 * TomPN * (-12) /* Staff and ledger lines */ 12:52:19 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40684&oldid=40683 * Ais523 * (-204) /* A note from the author */ move copyright note to the talkpage, it's about the article rather than being about the language 12:52:20 [wiki] [[Talk:Musical notes]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40685 * Ais523 * (+394) move copyright note to the talkpage, it's about the article rather than being about the language 12:52:43 how many of BF's categories do we put on BF derivatives? 12:53:37 oh wow, it's sub-TC 12:53:47 all loops have a fixed number of iterations 12:54:02 I think we need Phantom_Hoover for this one 12:54:19 Hey, at least you can say it's different from BF. 12:54:52 callforjudgement, which one? 12:55:03 Taneb: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Musical_notes 12:56:53 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40686&oldid=40684 * Ais523 * (+479) computational class; it bothers me how often people manage to make BF sub-TC by removing useful loops from it 12:57:38 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40687&oldid=40686 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Computational class */ fix cat names 12:57:58 oh, loops can't be nested /either/? 12:58:12 I was going to say that it was the .,<>+-()* fragment of BF 12:58:13 but it isn't even that 12:58:37 it's nowhere near as bad as ESME, but I find it rather more offensive 12:59:23 also, no accidentals rather limits the /musical/ possibilities 13:07:24 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40688&oldid=40687 * TomPN * (+120) 13:07:57 what is going on 13:08:02 that is a lot of edits 13:08:04 quintopia: see the page that's been edited a lot recently 13:08:08 or, well, recent changes 13:08:15 note: you need a high tolerance for awful BF derivatives 13:08:16 it's almost like the wiki is popular again 13:08:36 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40689&oldid=40688 * TomPN * (-408) /* Computational class */ 13:09:41 hmm, I'm still remembering the way that C-INTERCAL has entirely different semantics for ¥ depending on whether it's encoded in UTF-8 or Latin-1 13:09:56 and this actually does the right thing in all known existing cases 13:13:12 what is ¥ even supposed to do again 13:13:25 isn't it a replacement for the bookworm character 13:14:06 I mean, it sort of looks like that 13:15:16 it's a bookworm character in CLC-INTERCAL (thus unary exclusive or), and a currency symbol in C-INTERCAL (thus mingle) 13:15:24 which use latin-1 and utf-8 encoding respectively 13:15:40 ouch 13:15:43 wtf 13:15:46 so C-INTERCAL just uses the CLC-INTERCAL interpretation if the input happens to be latin-1 13:15:52 so they use the same character for two different purpose? 13:15:58 how is the bookworm encoded then? 13:15:59 b_jonas: this is INTERCAL 13:16:05 yeah yeah 13:16:12 and C-INTERCAL bookworm is normally ?, although V backspace - is accepted 13:16:32 isn't there some fancy unicode character equated with bookworm? 13:17:00 or a proposal to add it a new unicode character for it? 13:17:06 an upside-down A might or might not be permitted, I'm not sure 13:17:15 although obviously that's not quite identical to a bookworm 13:19:17 -!- drdanmaku has joined. 13:22:53 there's ⊻ which some crazy people use as a sign for 'xor', and ⊽ which is used in APL for 'nor', and I think there's a nabla with either minus or tilde through it, but I don't know of an exact match 13:23:01 if there isn't, one should be added to unicode 13:23:31 hey, TomPN deleted my section about the computational class 13:23:42 I don't want to edit war, because that would be really stupid 13:23:53 could someone else make a decision about whether it should be included or not? 13:24:21 b_jonas? quintopia? fizzie? 13:24:48 -!- callforjudgement has quit. 13:25:07 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 13:26:34 ooh, elliott's online and probably has the right opinion about this 13:26:51 first time I've come across what is probably a POV pusher on Esolang 13:27:45 um... 13:28:00 is this suppsoed to be some strange brainfuck variant described by someone who doesn't understand what he writes? 13:28:05 I'm still trying to interpret the description 13:28:11 b_jonas: yes, and someone who deleted my section on the computational class 13:28:23 because it made it clear how useless the language was 13:28:58 callforjudgement: maybe you shouldn't care too much about that... there's already lots of useless esolangs out there 13:29:25 I don't care about the esolang being useless, that much (well, this one's offensively useless, but…) 13:29:26 or it could be a work in progress or something 13:29:45 I care about the user actively making the page worse by deleting information about the language from it 13:29:56 knowing the computational class is often interesting with these languages 13:30:09 but I don't want to get into a revert war by myself 13:30:15 sure 13:30:20 I'd like you to look at the revert of my edit, and unrevert it if you agree 13:30:29 I'll try to understand the description first, as much as it's possible 13:30:34 fair enough 13:30:40 it's not a very clear description 13:30:54 basically, though, it's the subset of BF with <>+-., and ()* from BF Joust, only the ()* doesn't nest 13:31:09 oh, and you can RLE the <>+- with a separate mechanism from the ()* 13:33:28 meanwhile, I thought editing the link to the language onto the /Main Page/ of all pages was a bit much, but I just reverted that, rather than yelling 13:35:04 um... is this description tries to call bf's data tape an “instruction tape”? 13:35:45 err, yes it does 13:35:49 you could probably fix that 13:35:59 or I could, I guess 13:36:01 no wait 13:36:02 wait 13:36:30 maybe it's trying to mean that the data tape is the same as the number parts (the tenor) of the instruction tape, and is mutable, 13:36:50 and so those numbers can be changed by the program and modify how instructions work? 13:37:03 seems strange, and is probably not very workable, but still 13:37:16 maybe there's a reason it's called that 13:37:30 but I'm probably just overthinking this 13:37:30 it describes it as a tape like in BF 13:37:46 I think you have a mental bias towards believing that the language can't possibly be that bad 13:37:59 ok wait, there's another part I don't understand 13:38:10 first he says “The pitch of the note determines its function, while the value of the note (crotchet, minim etc.) determines how many times the function occurs.” 13:38:12 I mean, a version of BF where each command had a repeat count based on the position of the matching tape element would actually be interesting 13:38:22 then he talks about the notes in the tenor determining how many times the instruction occurs, or something 13:38:27 b_jonas: right, I just realised that contradicted the entirety of the rest of the page 13:38:38 um 13:39:14 what if we say it's a work in progress because it's been created today, and wait for the author to fix the description 13:39:18 maybe we should write him a msesage 13:39:22 TomPN: can you hear us here? 13:39:22 this is veering dangerously close into [[Category:Shameful]] territory 13:39:30 b_jonas: I've already written two on the talk page, about other things 13:39:45 however, I consider linking to your language from the Main Page an indication that you consider it finished 13:40:24 linking from the main page? 13:40:37 oh.. 13:40:57 ouch 13:40:59 that looks bad 13:43:11 that user seems seriously confused 13:44:17 meh, *of course* on can cheat on tetration. 13:44:37 I'm going to have to look at Esme again just to relax 13:44:49 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:45:15 callforjudgement: ugh 13:45:17 -!- augur has joined. 13:49:40 sorry for subjecting you to this 13:49:49 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:49:51 I should probably just have gotten into the edit war 13:49:56 then blocked for 3RR 13:50:12 nah, no problem 13:50:29 I've seen crazier users. 13:50:51 I hope this one can just be reverted on other pages and left alone on that one page about that “language” 13:50:58 doing that at Wikipedia would be mindbogglingly frowned on even though it doesn't violate the letter of any objective rules 13:51:07 sure 13:51:10 but this is not wikipedia 13:51:15 yes 13:51:22 it'd still be incredible admin rougeness, thoguh 13:51:30 if he gets bored and leaves, we can just delete the page after two weeks 13:51:36 ideal situation would be if they got reverted four times by four different users 13:51:41 and I'd prefer the page to exist but be accurate 13:52:02 could we just try to tell him that his description is nonsense and please try to make it clearer? 13:52:26 sure, that might work 13:52:33 more diplomatic language would be nice unless you were really annoyed 13:52:46 and tell him the three main reasons why it's unclear (the loop insns; tenor vs note length; the "instruction tape") 13:53:18 loop insns are pretty clear to me 13:54:36 no they're not, not if it claims to be a bf variant and has "([)" there. if they're useless loop structions, they at least need a note. 13:54:41 wait 13:54:48 "loops cannot be nested." just like that? 13:54:56 then it doesn't even matter how they're controlled, right? 13:55:00 I didn't notice that 13:55:10 it could do 13:55:34 no control is much more useless than unnested loops 13:55:35