←2014-10-24 2014-10-25 2014-10-26→ ↑2014 ↑all
00:04:12 <Sgeo> I really like Scala's standard trampoline, at least relative to Clojure's
00:04:27 <Sgeo> Although not needing such tricks would be better >.>
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00:06:14 <oerjan> trampolines are fun but they steal your time
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00:09:27 <Sgeo> And Chrome is not going to let me copy out of a PDF today
00:39:59 <oerjan> ...what time zone is shinh.org on, something asian?
00:40:36 <elliott> shinh is japanese
00:40:52 <oerjan> PLAUSIBLE
00:41:23 * oerjan just dislikes things not giving a timezone if it's not UTC
01:11:21 <oerjan> oh hm i must have pressed the wrong vim button for the count, i thought i'd beat them by 1 char
01:11:36 <oerjan> oh well it's a tie
01:13:59 <oerjan> it doesn't seem _that_ impossible to find a shorter expression though...
01:14:03 <elliott> oerjan: note that newlines are dangerous
01:14:44 <oerjan> not the problem, although i've never actually checked with _not_ removing the final newline on input i think...
01:15:02 <oerjan> i know the program _output_ doesn't care about trailing newlines.
01:15:50 <oerjan> elliott: or, it _may_ have been the problem in vim (not doing a full line selection), but it wasn't a problem when submitting.
01:16:22 <oerjan> because i usually select the full line and mentally subtract the newline from the count.
01:16:42 <elliott> I mean in the program
01:16:46 <oerjan> or wait perhaps it was even more stupid.
01:16:58 <elliott> they are \r\n through the web form
01:16:58 <oerjan> elliott: only at the end, in haskell, usually.
01:17:06 <elliott> \n if you upload a unix format text file
01:17:10 <oerjan> elliott: huh? never had that problem.
01:17:17 <elliott> maybe it was fixed
01:17:20 <oerjan> even if i use the form from windows
01:17:31 <elliott> you used to pay double for newlines unless you uploaded
01:17:37 <oerjan> also, this program is one line anyway.
01:17:57 <oerjan> ok
01:18:30 <oerjan> i actually, since i am on windows, used the form because i assumed if it broke it was likely to be the _other_ way :P
01:19:09 <oerjan> also i keep all my golfs in one file so it's awkward to upload.
01:24:14 <int-e> oerjan: it's much easier to find longer expression...
01:24:40 <oerjan> OKAY
01:25:01 <int-e> my favourite so far contained sum[2..a]
01:25:14 <int-e> but it was too long.
02:21:56 <int-e> okay, got "swap the characters" -- it's actually cheating!
02:22:12 <oerjan> argh
02:22:24 <int-e> but you can get to 80 without cheating.
02:30:44 <oerjan> the only possible cheat information i've found is the fact that none of the starting words have 2 chars, but i haven't found any improvement from that.
02:30:59 <oerjan> well, also there are no lines with no swap commands.
02:31:31 <int-e> I've already said more than I should.
02:31:36 <oerjan> ah
02:31:47 <int-e> good luck :)
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03:10:10 <oerjan> remarkable. i discovered i had overengineered the way to apply a single swap to a character, and now i'm down to 81.
03:10:35 <int-e> I've made some progress on Asteriks and Obeliks in the meantime :)
03:10:42 <oerjan> ah
03:13:09 <oerjan> wtf etc.
03:15:42 <oerjan> i see. you are now at exactly the length i would have had if i _didn't_ need that stupid strip-final-spaces version of ++.
03:16:27 <oerjan> or wait, not exactly.
03:16:35 <oerjan> of unwords, rather.
03:16:48 <oerjan> hm...
03:22:05 <oerjan> or well, my main function is 73 chars.
03:22:18 <oerjan> *action
03:23:23 <oerjan> which means, logically, that you probably have found a way to get that stripping for free, at least.
03:25:18 <int-e> well, not completely free.
03:26:19 <oerjan> oh hm i recall something i did in another golf recently...
03:29:07 <int-e> 10 characters, I think.
03:29:15 <oerjan> ah yes the euclidian norm one required stripping with another method.
03:30:20 <oerjan> more than 10 chars, though :(
03:44:47 <Sgeo> Is it just me or is Scala filled with things where a person -can- determine behavior statically, but it can be a bit tricky?
03:45:28 <Sgeo> Implicits in scope, but tracking all of them might be tricky... guess a good IDE could help with that, but do you really want to rely on an IDE to help read code?
03:47:47 <Sgeo> At least now I understand what's going on with https://github.com/urso/embeddedmonads
03:48:24 <Sgeo> At least why the call looks the way it does, it's just a matter of {} being a value + not needing parens + type of runOption indicating a thunk
03:48:44 <Sgeo> Not that {} is automatically a thunk, it's just the type of the called function that causes it to be
03:50:50 <Sgeo> I still don't get the cps typing though
04:18:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40696&oldid=39329 * Nthern * (+31) /* x = x == y */
04:25:54 <zzo38> Did you know, the man who designed the White House was Catholic, the man who invented double-entry accounting was Catholic, and even Hitler and Dracula were Catholic?
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04:31:04 <zzo38> You mentioned Poe's law on Conservapedia; but I found it is actually on Wikipedia too (which I consider far more trustworthy, regardless of what Conservapedia says; nevertheless is good to see the various views mentioned in various texts).
04:41:46 <coppro> zzo38: no
04:41:57 <coppro> zzo38: Conservapedia is the embodiment of Poe's Law
04:45:56 <zzo38> coppro: I suppose you may be right.
04:46:22 <zzo38> As has been mentioned before, possibly even people on there don't know how serious it is.
04:46:30 <zzo38> (I mean the people who write it!)
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05:01:21 <oerjan> zzo38: did you know that the man who invented the idea of the big bang was catholic
05:02:22 <zzo38> oerjan: Actually, yes I knew that too.
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05:10:10 <zzo38> Also, it was Christians who wrote "X" in place of "Christ" (as an abbreviation), not atheists.
05:10:20 <zzo38> (Of course now atheists do it too sometimes.)
05:10:54 <zzo38> Something being Christian is neither an argument for nor against such a thing.
05:14:25 <elliott> did you know the pope is catholic
05:14:35 <elliott> #MindBlowingCatholicFacts
05:19:55 <zzo38> I also do not completely understand the working of big bang, although perhaps I can look it up in Wikipedia.
05:21:31 <Bicyclidine> i thin if you had a good understanding of the early aftermath you'd be up for honorary doctorates
05:21:55 <Bicyclidine> or of the later aftermath, since that's now, if you think about it
05:22:01 <Bicyclidine> makes you think
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05:35:28 <Sgeo> `slist
05:35:28 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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06:56:45 <zzo38> I am still confused; is there the difference of space and time? Shouldn't spacetime be one thing?
06:59:23 <Slereah> Spacetime is one thing, yes
06:59:28 <Bicyclidine> yes, they have opposite signs in the metric signature bla bla bla
06:59:38 <Slereah> But there is a difference between timelike curves and spacelike curves
07:00:06 <zzo38> Yes, I know that, but how does it relate to big bang?
07:00:25 <zzo38> I know they have opposite signs
07:00:27 <Slereah> In the current understanding of the big bang, there is a timelike singularity
07:00:41 <Slereah> That is, you cannot extend a timelike geodesic infinitely far in the past
07:02:43 <Bicyclidine> one divided by time
07:02:46 <elliott> watch me [starts stretching a timelike geodesic with bare hands]
07:03:16 <Slereah> Noooo
07:03:21 <Slereah> But will you be able to do it
07:03:25 <Slereah> INFINITELY
07:03:37 <elliott> [arms disappear into the distance, undergo gravitational collapse]
07:03:50 <elliott> call me mr tickle
07:03:50 <Bicyclidine> rip elliott's arms
07:04:01 <elliott> mr men as creation myth
07:04:05 <Bicyclidine> twerked too hard
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07:05:10 <Slereah> You can have lots of fun with spacetimes
07:05:22 <Slereah> It is possible to have spacetimes without any future or past distinction
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07:39:45 <Sgeo> Maybe it's fair to say that Scala uses lexical scoping in letter but not spirit? With lexical scoping you expect to be able to look for identifiers textually (bad word) nearby. Not so easy in Scala
07:41:38 <Lymia> Sgeo, generally not so easy in OO
07:43:16 <Lymia> But I'm curious which feature you're referring to.
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08:00:31 <Sgeo> Implicits, which get brought into scope via import, but the name of an implicit in use may not be obvious
08:00:50 <Sgeo> (Or via other mechanisms too, actually)
08:01:36 <Lymia> Eh... IMO, the purpose of lexical scoping is that A) nothing happens that you haven't explicitly introduced, and B) you can statically determine everything in a scope.
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08:36:40 <Lymia> Hmm...
08:36:52 <Lymia> Sgeo, I'm not sure implicits should be thought of as having names, even.
08:37:00 <Lymia> They do have /types/ but not sure about names.
08:37:07 <Lymia> (Except as an implementation detail)
08:40:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Beefster * New user account
08:52:54 <elliott> Sgeo: don't, uh, /globals/ violate that?
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09:23:34 <fizzie> int-e: Well, I have a cheating first half in 17 and a workaround-prints of 15 (which times out) and 20 (which doesn't).
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09:43:52 <zzo38> Can LALR(1) grammars have states with more than one kind of reduce depending on the lookahead? Can SLR(1) grammars have?
10:16:50 <fizzie> int-e: Scratch that, I have a workaround-print of size 11 now, leading to a 28B solution. Now if I could only figure out how to make a shorter first half.
10:34:51 <fizzie> int-e: (Any tips? :) )
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13:27:08 <int-e> > length $ show $ 2^2^2^2^2
13:27:10 <lambdabot> 19729
13:29:59 <int-e> fizzie: my hint would be to try and match the Haskell solution, that's where I took the formula from...
13:31:09 <fizzie> I don't have a Haskell solution, though. (And that length sounds more relevant for the printing than the computation.)
13:31:16 <int-e> fizzie: (I have no useful hint to give)
13:31:33 <int-e> yes, I improved my printing part.
13:32:00 <fizzie> I don't think my printing needs improvement any more (it's 11B), but the front half (17B) does.
13:32:36 <fizzie> Oh well, only 12 days to wait and see. :)
13:38:33 <int-e> the part sizes are 13 (as before, the 14 included a 'p') and 11 (matching yours), fwiw.
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13:48:53 <fizzie> I don't much like dc's "all conditional stuff must go via a register" thing.
13:52:12 <fizzie> Oh, duh.
13:53:43 <fizzie> I've got the same part sizes now, but slightly different statistics.
13:57:17 <int-e> I have two versions of part 1
13:58:09 <fizzie> Just out of curiosity, do your two versions involve a different amount of ?s?
13:58:36 <int-e> hmm but they have the same statistics.
13:58:55 <Lymia> > length $ show $ 2^2^2^2^10
13:59:01 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
13:59:07 <Lymia> :(
14:00:43 <int-e> > length $ show $ 2^2^10
14:00:45 <lambdabot> 309
14:01:19 <int-e> 2^2^2^10 is already much too big to fit into memory.
14:02:21 <int-e> fizzie: no, they don't.
14:02:41 <fizzie> int-e: I was wondering whether I should try with one, but it didn't seem to help any.
14:02:48 <Lymia> > length $ show $ 2^2^2^10
14:02:50 <Lymia> Let's try.
14:02:51 <Lymia> :D
14:02:53 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
14:03:05 <fizzie> It's just 2^179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342462881473913110540827237163350510684586298239947245938479716304835356329624224137216.
14:03:26 <Lymia> Sounds reasonable enough.
14:04:21 <Lymia> > length $ show $ 1^2^2^2^10
14:04:26 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
14:05:20 <fizzie> That times log_10(2) should be about the number of digits for your earlier 2^2^2^2^10.
14:09:16 <fizzie> So (unless I miscalculated) the number of digits of 2^2^2^2^10 is a number that has around 5e307 digits.
14:11:19 <int-e> fizzie: thanks for that
14:11:37 <fizzie> int-e: For what?
14:11:59 <fizzie> (I did notice the 23B.)
14:12:24 <int-e> for the idea of playing with the second input
14:12:24 <mroman> !blsq 2 2**
14:12:24 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
14:12:27 <mroman> !blsq 2 2**
14:12:27 <blsqbot> 4
14:12:40 <mroman> !blsq 2 2 2****
14:12:40 <blsqbot> 16
14:12:46 <mroman> !blsq 2 2 2 2******
14:12:46 <blsqbot> 65536
14:12:51 <fizzie> int-e: Oh, so you used only the first one initially?
14:12:55 <int-e> yes
14:13:00 <mroman> !blsq 2 2 2 2 10********
14:13:00 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
14:13:13 <fizzie> Aw, I was hoping I could shave off a byte by trying that, after all.
14:17:23 <fizzie> Yay.
14:17:40 <fizzie> Oh, you did it too. Unyay, now I'm only #2.
14:18:26 <fizzie> I don't know why it took me that long, given that I was already using both.
14:19:58 <fizzie> (I think it's quite likely we've ended up with identical solutions by now.)
14:33:52 <Sgeo> Stared at the sun. Saw a sunspot
14:34:27 <Sgeo> (I think)
14:35:12 <int-e> don't hurt your eyes
14:36:19 <Sgeo> I was using solar glasses
14:36:28 <Sgeo> http://www.rainbowsymphonystore.com/eclipseshades.html
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14:37:33 <Sgeo> " These premium filters create a sharper ORANGE colored image of the sun. "
14:37:43 <Sgeo> Are they doing things that artificially color the image? :/
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14:40:58 <Sgeo> I guess I don't really have a way to tell if their glasses really are certified in any way
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15:03:28 <int-e> > comparing length "Eclipse Shades® Safe Solar Eclipse Glasses" "Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive sunglasses"
15:03:29 <lambdabot> LT
15:04:13 <fizzie> > length <$> ["Eclipse Shades® Safe Solar Eclipse Glasses", "Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive sunglasses"]
15:04:15 <lambdabot> [42,56]
15:04:27 <fizzie> Note first number, certainly not a coincidence.
15:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> is that encoding-dependent
15:08:03 <fizzie> > length "®"
15:08:05 <lambdabot> 1
15:08:52 <fizzie> > length <$> ["ä", "ä"]
15:08:53 <lambdabot> [1,2]
15:09:07 <fizzie> So length in terms of code points, then.
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15:45:01 <Jafet> > fromEnum (maxBound :: Char)
15:45:04 <lambdabot> 1114111
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17:11:02 <fizzie> int-e: I wrote Belgian numbers in sed, and it turned out to be 415 bytes long; I have no idea how people actually golf (numeric problems) in sed in any meaningful way.
17:11:36 <fizzie> (There's a 183B sed solution for it already.)
17:16:33 <int-e> I don't know; I'd browse previous solutions.
17:16:49 <fizzie> Sounds like work. :/
17:16:56 <fizzie> Also they might be difficult.
17:17:03 <int-e> less work than figuring out everything from scratch.
17:22:10 <Sgeo> I stared at the sun while wearing a symbol associated with a character who went blind by staring at the sun
17:23:01 <int-e> fizzie: for example, http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Multiply+long+version/tails_1334125271&sed looks like it does real arithmetic.
17:26:26 <fizzie> It looks clever.
17:28:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: What symbol and character is that?
17:31:07 <Sgeo> zzo38: http://www.whatpumpkin.com/Hero-of-Mind-Standard-Tee.html
17:31:18 <Sgeo> For http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Terezi_Pyrope
17:31:32 <zzo38> OK
17:38:12 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/doc/zterm.txt Can you please tell me if it is good, your opinion of such things? It can be one possible alternative to Glk, and is one which should be more suitable for Z-machine programming.
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18:01:27 <SignX> Hello, does Esolang also provide a forum in which the technical side of developing programming languages is discussed?
18:02:14 <zzo38> SignX: I think is probably best to just post on this channel; there was a forum but it isn't very good so just use the IRC.
18:02:39 <zzo38> Do you have specific questions about such things?
18:05:31 <SignX> So, no specific question, actually, I was just looking for resources about developing programming languages in which I could wander around and maybe learn from.
18:06:11 <zzo38> Esolang is very unusual compared to most kind of "ordinary" programming languages, but there is still something to learn from.
18:06:51 <zzo38> There are also logs of this IRC channel, and stuff on the talk pages of the wiki, which are some things to possibly look at.
18:07:22 <zzo38> Even look in Wikipedia you can see many other kind of programming languages too.
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18:07:38 <SignX> Do you know of any other resources (fora) on the internet in which a community of language developers exist for some time?
18:07:53 <zzo38> I myself don't know any.
18:08:31 <zzo38> What kind of programming language are you trying to invent? Domain-specific, domain-independent, target-machine-specific, target-machine-independent, etc?
18:09:53 <SignX> A general purpose programming language. I have writting a prototype interpreter in Java using javacc.
18:10:32 <zzo38> Well, let's see and then perhaps some questions, comments, and complaints can be made.
18:10:57 <SignX> Probably :)
18:11:16 <zzo38> Are you using a parser generator?
18:11:23 <SignX> yes, javacc
18:11:49 <zzo38> Ah, OK, I don't know that one. Is it LL or LR or something else?
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18:13:54 <SignX> Not sure what LL and LR stand for, sorry.
18:15:46 <zzo38> Wikipedia says JavaCC is LL(k). However, LR parsers are generally more powerful.
18:16:27 <SignX> You mean powerful in the sense that your syntax can be more complex?
18:17:13 <zzo38> Yes.
18:17:19 <SignX> Until now it proved powerful enough. The language itself is quite simple.
18:17:40 <zzo38> Well, LL(1) parsers are often good enough.
18:17:58 <SignX> I did not have any Compiler courses or anything, so my knowledge of the topic is not that good.
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18:20:01 <SignX> I remembered some concepts I found very interesting during my study and tried to combine them into a programming language. I am not even sure if it is Turing complete or anything. That is why I am developing this prototype in Java. To see how my ideas hold up in practise.
18:20:03 <myname> the dragon book :p
18:20:27 <zzo38> SignX: Yes, you can try and see how well it might work.
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18:54:53 <SignX> Zzo38: do you know anything about Prolog?
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19:13:24 <Sgeo> My eyes feel a bit weird, I hope it's psychosomatic
19:19:20 <Sgeo> http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/synoptic/sunspots_earth/mdi_sunspots_1024.jpg
19:19:27 <Sgeo> I think I saw that large sunspot, but not in much detail
19:19:47 <Sgeo> HMm, that image will go away soon, won't it
19:20:15 <Sgeo> For the logs: http://i.imgur.com/PBK8KLD.jpg
19:20:18 <Sgeo> For the logs: http://i.imgur.com/PBK8KLD.jpg
19:22:31 <Sgeo> I hate Quassel
19:24:27 <olsner> hmm, you stared at the sun to see some sunspots, and now your eyes feel a bit weird?
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19:27:07 <Sgeo> I was wearing solar eclipse glasses
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19:28:36 <olsner> still wearing them? :P
19:29:03 <int-e> heh
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19:44:48 <Sgeo> "One thing I didn't notice however was a warning about not looking at the sun with them on for more than 3 minutes. My husband noticed this and told me about it. It would be good to include that information more prominently, so it will be blatantly obvious - IN LARGE LETTERS - on the outside of the glasses themselves. It was printed inside the glasses on the ear piece in very small text."
19:44:50 <Sgeo> THE FUCK?
19:46:16 <Sgeo> I don't see any such notice on mine
19:46:48 <Sgeo> Oh, someone commented on that review "It sounds like someone did a bait and switch on you as the CE Certified glasses from Rainbow Symphony which are Black do not say anything like that on the inside frames. It sounds like you recevied a pair of Solar Skreens instead which are a cheaper Mylar film than the Ploymer Film used in Eclipse Shades."
19:49:26 <Sgeo> So, there are some glasses which say 3 minutes continuous use. These don't, but now I'm worried
20:06:13 <Sgeo> "Letters, which include lower case letters (Ll), upper case letters (Lu), titlecase letters (Lt)"
20:06:17 <Sgeo> Titlecase letters?
20:06:53 <fizzie> There are some two-letter "letters".
20:07:10 <fizzie> For which you have both lowercase "ab", uppercase "AB" and a titlecase "Ab".
20:07:11 <myname> i'd assume "kapitälchen" in german
20:07:17 <myname> ah
20:08:41 <fizzie> `unidecode DZDzdz
20:09:10 <fizzie> `unicode Dz
20:09:11 <HackEgo> U+01F2 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D WITH SMALL LETTER Z \ UTF-8: c7 b2 UTF-16BE: 01f2 Decimal: &#498; \ Dz (DZ) \ Uppercase: U+01F1 \ Category: Lt (Letter, Titlecase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: <compat> 0044 007A
20:09:20 <fizzie> That's a titlecase letter ("Lt" category), for example.
20:09:44 <myname> crazy stuff
20:10:13 <fizzie> "The titlecase mapping in Unicode differs from the uppercase mapping in that a number of characters require special handling. These are chiefly ligatures and digraphs such as 'fl', 'dz', and 'lj', plus a number of polytonic Greek characters. For example, U+01C7 (LJ) maps to U+01C8 (Lj) rather than to U+01C9 (lj)."
20:12:14 <fizzie> There are a total of 31 titlecase letters.
20:13:27 <fizzie> Four Latin ligatures (Dž, Lj, Nj and Dz -- that is, Dž, Lj, Nj and Dz) and 27 Greek ones.
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20:15:15 <Lymia> Why are those ligatures again?
20:15:20 <Lymia> Instead of stuff handled by kerning in the font
20:16:21 <fizzie> Lymia: "For compatibility".
20:17:23 <fizzie> "Because of the inclusion of certain composite characters for compatiblity, such as U+01F1 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER DZ, a third case, called titlecase, is used where the first character of a word must be capitalized." (Unicode 7.0.0, chapter 4.2.)
20:19:41 <fizzie> Good old round-trip convertibility design goal.
20:33:13 <Sgeo> I think I forgot about my eyes feeling weird
20:33:16 * Sgeo relaxes
20:36:22 <int-e> http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/vision/Galileo.html is interesting
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20:38:50 <int-e> and if that's too long to read, at least read the paragraph that contains the word "exploded".
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20:42:50 <Sgeo> Arguably then could inadequate filtering be worse than naked eye viewing, since pupils would be dilated?
20:42:58 <Sgeo> Hopefully the glasses are adequate >.>
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23:52:29 <oerjan> <zzo38> Can LALR(1) grammars have states with more than one kind of reduce depending on the lookahead? <-- i _think_ so, provided that the resulting symbols can only occur with those respective lookaheads.
23:53:18 <oerjan> 8 minutes to europe's yearly backwards time travel
23:53:27 <oerjan> sorry, 7
23:53:53 <oerjan> or wait
23:54:04 <oerjan> is it 2-1 or 3-2, sheesh
23:54:26 <zzo38> I do not understand your response very well?
23:55:56 <oerjan> well if you have E that can only be followed by c ever, and F that can only be followed by d ever, then you could have E and F reduce from the same thing, i think.
23:56:56 <oerjan> (this slightly adapted from wikipedia's example of an LR(1) non-LALR(1) grammar, where both E and F can be followed by c and d, but with different prefixes.
23:56:59 <oerjan> )
23:58:39 <oerjan> ah it's 3->2. so make that 1 hour 2 minutes, now.
23:59:10 <zzo38> I have seen that example, but I don't think that is my question. What I mean is if there can be different "r" actions in a single row of the table.
23:59:34 <oerjan> i didn't mean that example.
23:59:57 <zzo38> Like in this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LR(k)#Parse_table_for_the_example_grammar there is row 6 says "r3" three times, and row 7 says "r4" three times; it doesn't have both "r3" and "r4" in the same row.
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