< 1415491283 766700 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1415491316 475392 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1415492010 626730 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection timed out < 1415492932 529318 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dreamt of a new kind of handheld computer system that although it included several buttons as well as a touch-screen, many things were controlled by gestures that aren't touching it; for example to slide up a menu by sliding your finger against your fingernail. < 1415493360 760839 :nys!~nys@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :swipe tongue across roof of mouth to dismiss notification < 1415493550 608789 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the concept of a nothing-held computer is interesting. augmented reality, or holographic projection? < 1415493975 491133 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just have a projection from those mind-control satellites < 1415494076 250759 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Unfortunately, there's a radio connected to my brain" < 1415495029 967916 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1415495054 989729 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Subleq14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40814&oldid=40787 5* 03Oerjan 5* (-1) 10/* Basic */ tpyo < 1415495511 341602 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07CA-114]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40815&oldid=40792 5* 03Oerjan 5* (-3) 10fix format, grm < 1415495668 314712 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Replace14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40816&oldid=40790 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+13) 10fmt, links < 1415495909 884326 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40817&oldid=40798 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+14) 10sp, no < 1415496328 652006 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Dimensions14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40818&oldid=40812 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+8) 10links < 1415497552 862148 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1415497756 747924 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1415497953 856052 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1415499057 439260 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many bits are there in a ICBM address (including elevation)? < 1415500546 139312 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: WEREWOLF CHICKEN < 1415502583 320598 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: WERECHICKEN WOLF < 1415502880 482002 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1415503759 759574 :^v!~notnot^v@c-71-238-153-166.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1415504622 682451 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's with prescriptivists telling me not to use the word "trinary" < 1415504824 461176 :nys!~nys@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca QUIT :Quit: quit < 1415505355 912859 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why? < 1415505783 744276 :Gregor!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's Latin/Greek pedantry? < 1415514260 496691 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some things say it is requiring use of OSI-approved licenses (and other things say it requires FSF-approved licenses). But this is problem; some are only one and not the other. < 1415515025 916996 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to easily skip past a bzip2 stream without attempting to decompress it? < 1415516716 800287 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :By figuring out its length somehow < 1415516783 573489 :DTSCode!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode JOIN :#esoteric < 1415516798 256262 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I thought, but I don't know the format; the bzip2 documentation tells only the API and doesn't document the format. < 1415518951 735837 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1415518994 216611 :DTSCode!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1415519216 864094 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not updated level20.tex in a while. What footnote do you want to put next? < 1415519322 771399 :DTSCode!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode JOIN :#esoteric < 1415519354 681715 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1415519544 136727 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1415519629 588313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1415520407 537821 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could you look at http://www.bzip.org/1.0.6/bzip2-1.0.6.tar.gz to determine the file format? < 1415520454 989690 :DTSCode!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1415520494 119901 :DTSCode!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode JOIN :#esoteric < 1415520662 260634 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zwcgspeollnqciqv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1415521362 890201 :MoALTz!~no@user-188-33-211-16.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1415521442 142141 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :blsq ) %square={^^?*}9%square! < 1415521443 134792 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :81 < 1415521444 181000 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1415522233 778515 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ikusqdkjiqmjzchq QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1415522551 239451 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :centrinia: I do have the program in my computer already < 1415522600 319582 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So look at the source code. < 1415523291 256261 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :@type groupBy < 1415523292 118235 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [[a]] < 1415523411 209711 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle Eq b => (a -> b) -> [a] -> [[a]] < 1415523411 504980 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC.Exts groupWith :: Ord b => (a -> b) -> [a] -> [[a]] < 1415523411 728254 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC.Exts sortWith :: Ord b => (a -> b) -> [a] -> [a] < 1415523411 728367 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude dropWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] < 1415523466 416645 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess groupWith f == groupBy ((==) `on` f) or something. < 1415523487 504341 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, s/==/=/ < 1415523496 283189 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth is wrong with groupBy < 1415523503 921865 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf is "on" < 1415523515 463464 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@type on < 1415523516 400146 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> a -> c < 1415523525 78073 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :> groupBy (\c -> c % 2 == 0) [1,2,4,3,5,6,8,10,1] < 1415523526 431184 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type ‘a -> GHC.Types.Bool’ < 1415523526 614779 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : with actual type ‘GHC.Types.Bool’ < 1415523526 614827 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Relevant bindings include c :: a (bound at :1:11) < 1415523550 382367 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1415523551 565897 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1415523583 515194 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a version of group that allows to do that? < 1415523590 857238 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :groupBy (\c -> c % 2 == 0) < 1415523614 756058 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :should produce [[1],[2,4],[3,5],[6,8,10],1] actually < 1415523631 451209 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :@type groupWith < 1415523632 446682 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: ‘groupWith’ < 1415523653 849012 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :> groupBy ((==) `on` (%2)) [1,2,4,3,5,6,8,10,1] < 1415523655 283299 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[1],[2],[4],[3],[5],[6],[8],[10],[1]] < 1415523661 959128 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. < 1415523674 14481 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*slowclap* < 1415523679 578946 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :> groupBy ((==) `on` (`mod` 2)) [1,2,4,3,5,6,8,10,1] < 1415523681 19859 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[1],[2,4],[3,5],[6,8,10],[1]] < 1415523696 21383 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You confused me with your use of %, I blame that. < 1415523740 602959 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1415523771 624700 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and you're not you. < 1415523786 550188 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I thought it was still mroman speaking.) < 1415523799 772099 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :hu < 1415523803 611388 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's % then :D < 1415523807 324127 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src (%) < 1415523807 508166 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :x % y = reduce (x * signum y) (abs y) < 1415523811 297066 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1415523813 334846 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1415523839 248472 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do? < 1415523873 639904 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 16%6 < 1415523875 70721 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 8 % 3 < 1415523884 390377 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's that thing for those. < 1415523900 385665 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1415523916 495571 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle on < 1415523916 717005 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Function on :: (b -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> a -> c < 1415523916 901385 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Exception.Base onException :: IO a -> IO b -> IO a < 1415523916 901522 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Exception onException :: IO a -> IO b -> IO a < 1415523977 339012 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :> groupBy (\a b -> (a `mod` 2) == (b `mod` 2)) [1,2,4,3,5,6,8,10,1] -- if you want it spelled out < 1415523978 822967 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[1],[2,4],[3,5],[6,8,10],[1]] < 1415524071 410252 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :blsq ) {1 2 4 3 5 6 8 10 1}{2dv}gB < 1415524072 505279 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :{{1} {2 4} {3 5} {6 8 10} {1}} < 1415524074 924896 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go :) < 1415524528 470881 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codepad.org/qqf0pbRH < 1415524534 822374 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :^- the new Burlesque :D < 1415524899 385442 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm familiar with the concept of `on` ;) < 1415524993 121555 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I mixed names all the way up there too. < 1415525305 338474 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw: Do you have some ideas how to make parsing practical in a stack-based language? < 1415525359 700126 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a grammar called having the properties: [1] There is a finite number of possible tokens and none of them have extra information associated with them. [2] Each production has a list of zero or more action symbols associated with them. [3] When a production is matched, the list of action symbols is appended to an output buffer and does nothing else; it does not affect further input or change what is already written to the output buffer. < 1415525555 241982 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: well, some classes of parsers (e.g. LR parsers) are stack-based already, but they normally assume that the input is somewhere other than the stack < 1415526519 820666 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. < 1415527051 712398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might be able to use the Underload/Joy trick of keeping the remaining input to consume on top of the stack, and just manipulating the stack beneath it, with dip instructions < 1415527067 967034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dip in Underload is ~a*^ < 1415527148 337792 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dip"? < 1415527305 825228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, "run the given code, using the tail of the stack as the stack" < 1415527323 832718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. it basically "hides" the top stack element while running some code, and puts it back afterwards < 1415527340 684154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)(c)(d)(e)SSSSS < 1415527341 270965 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :edcba < 1415527343 876380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)(c)(d)(e)~SSSSS < 1415527344 60212 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :decba < 1415527349 159368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)(c)(d)(e)(~)~a*^SSSSS < 1415527349 343072 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ecdba < 1415527362 289789 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should give you a good idea of how dip works < 1415527393 67366 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in underlambda (which is vaporware), I use _ for dip, because it's one of the more useful and fundamental operations you can do in a stack language < 1415527397 679726 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the name "dip" comes from Joy) < 1415527411 598108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ofc you can nest dips indefinitely < 1415527419 73090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a)(b)(c)(d)(e)((~)~a*^)~a*^SSSSS < 1415527419 256750 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :edbca < 1415527918 893066 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: tha sounds like a strange operation. do you temporarily put the hidden element to the separate return stack? < 1415527956 65520 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the ~a*^ implementation basically puts a command to push the hidden element onto the stack at the end of the code you're running < 1415527979 37908 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's effectively being stored in the "program stack" (which looks like a stack if you ever look at Underload in a debugger) < 1415527988 631535 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1415528015 299051 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, the program stack can contain arbitrary data in postscript too, so that makes sense < 1415528083 180688 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I went to look for the Factor 'dip', but it's just a primitive. < 1415528097 858719 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's a definition -- : dip swap [ call ] dip ; < 1415528108 470859 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's a primitive when preceded by a literal quotation. < 1415528142 799079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, is it defined in terms of itself? < 1415528153 673313 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's defined in terms of the primitive. < 1415528162 139142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in terms of a special case of itself, then < 1415528165 244533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1415528165 428066 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1415528176 323751 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The primitive only applies if it follows a literal quotation, so the definition is only involved when it's something else than a literal. < 1415528178 953377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally I was planning to have a separate stack for working in Overload < 1415528195 178998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought I might need one in Underlambda too, but Underload is more elegant than I expected < 1415528210 400116 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :~a*^ is a really elegant and neat definition, only four characters! < 1415528440 849361 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`forth 1 2 3 4 s" swap" rot >r evaluate r> ~~ < 1415528441 347865 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ *somewhere*:-1:<4> 1 3 2 4 < 1415528445 289181 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite as elegant. < 1415528469 807559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is Forth storing the data? < 1415528479 129851 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The return stack, with >r and r>. < 1415528530 639270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, which is safe because code won't tamper with the area below where you are on the return stack without giving you a chance to run < 1415528538 239183 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like storing local variables on the stack in C < 1415528609 269432 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the rot there is logically speaking a swap, it's just that s" foo" results in two cells (address and count). < 1415528689 23720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, that Forth definition is pretty much a direct translation of the Underload, allowing for differences in culture between the languages < 1415528743 648113 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`forth : f 1 2 3 4 c" swap" swap >r count evaluate r> ; f ~~ ( alternatively ) < 1415528744 212992 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ *somewhere*:-1:<4> 1 3 2 4 < 1415528761 943118 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason s" ..." is okay in interpreter mode, but c" ..." is a compile-only word. < 1415528886 253396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder how easy it is to write an Underload interpreter using Forth techniques (or in Forth directly) < 1415528961 928818 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends. do you want garbage collection? < 1415528977 4988 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`forth 1 2 3 4 ' swap swap >r execute r> ~~ ( a lot more elegant but only for a single word ) < 1415528977 530270 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ *somewhere*:-1:<4> 1 3 2 4 < 1415529019 732423 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"evaluate" is arbitrary "read source code from string", execute just runs the interpretation semantics denoted by the xt put on stack by ' swap. < 1415529073 42063 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, gforth (I don't know if it's in ANS) has anonymous definitions. < 1415529103 419700 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`forth 1 2 3 4 :noname rot swap ; swap >r execute r> ~~ < 1415529104 7279 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ *somewhere*:-1:<4> 2 1 3 4 < 1415529168 135470 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :V. fancy. < 1415529908 763536 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1415530896 767428 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, run the interpretation semantics denoted by the xt put on stack by ' swap. < 1415530896 951190 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: " it is a very inconvenient habit of kittens ( alice had once made the remark) that, though she looked back once or fnord the riddle?' < 1415530915 698588 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fnorded a riddle once. < 1415531093 951292 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, on what x86 cpus exactly does loading 16 bytes of unaligned memory with the MOVDQU instruction carry no penalty as long as that memory is never written (it's a constant table) and it doesn't cross a 64 byte cache line boundary? < 1415531094 175402 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: " oh mocking magic watch!" i exclaimed. " human free-will is an exception to the system of fixed law. eric said something like that went on all through this fnord shall we say ' animals'? and, as my tears could never bring the friendly phantom back, it seemed impossible!" he said. < 1415531385 712092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1415531726 429721 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :carrots, fungot? < 1415531726 650936 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: " i--i didn't mean to grin. see, there are a good plan!" he said dreamily: " fnord sylvie?" bruno impatiently interrupted me. " why," said the gardener. < 1415532747 749312 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mail Merge times out today. Now I'll have to consider whether to post another challenge. < 1415533578 225347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1415533800 758895 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1415533902 125659 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1415534514 292629 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, Mail Merge Times? < 1415534532 65139 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1415534773 667893 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is that? < 1415535234 650578 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-088-078-146-232.088.078.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :( Z < 1415535234 871078 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-088-078-146-232.088.078.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :040 : 12Nat < 1415535292 835193 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1415535671 840464 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the Mail Merge Times is 0 : Nat < 1415536448 347259 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1415536461 606846 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1415537013 405219 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1415538314 825842 :impomatic_!~digital_w@235.198.208.46.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1415538384 217943 :CADD_!~CADD@12.227.104.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1415539604 165843 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila JOIN :#esoteric < 1415540805 111668 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell shachaf what's with prescriptivists telling me not to use the word "trinary" <-- from a latin viewpoint, it's about like saying "threeth" in english < 1415540805 295591 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1415540966 313555 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1415541160 965528 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1415541165 38018 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I guess groupWith f == groupBy ((==) `on` f) or something. <-- it's implemented a bit more efficiently for expensive functions, i think < 1415541335 11694 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh wait, it's actually sorting first, so not the same as groupBy ((==) `on` f) at all < 1415541423 952494 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and even sortWith isn't _actually_ using the trick to evaluate expensive functions less, hm < 1415541497 521790 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is a bit tired in the brain < 1415541625 913725 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know it sorts first. < 1415541642 914145 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither did i, but i just checked the code < 1415541654 24569 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The documentation does say. < 1415541663 861539 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The groupWith function uses the user supplied function which projects an element out of every list element in order to first sort the input list and then to form groups by equality on these projected elements." < 1415541721 908208 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't do the Python itertools.groupby thing of returning tuples that contain both the value of the projection function as well as the group. < 1415541772 27110 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i had vaguely thought that it _constructed_ the tuple list internally, but it doesn't. < 1415541788 925202 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually groupWith without sorting wouldn't need that. < 1415541807 222508 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can just pass the last f x value recursively < 1415541826 104771 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sortWith would need to construct tuples, though < 1415541836 847988 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to avoid f reevaluation) < 1415541842 624089 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run python -c 'from itertools import groupby; print(list((k, list(g)) for k, g in groupby([1,2,4,3,5,6,8,10,1], lambda x: x%2)))' < 1415541843 289788 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[(1, [1]), (0, [2, 4]), (1, [3, 5]), (0, [6, 8, 10]), (1, [1])] < 1415541939 743663 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silly amount of list()s to convert all those generator objects to something that print nicely. < 1415541957 627334 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run python -c 'from itertools import groupby; print(list(groupby([1,2,4,3,5,6,8,10,1], lambda x: x%2)))' < 1415541958 322691 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[(1, ), (0, ), (1, ), (0, ), (1, )] < 1415541967 568267 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run python -c 'from itertools import groupby; print(groupby([1,2,4,3,5,6,8,10,1], lambda x: x%2))' < 1415541968 273516 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ < 1415541989 426841 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@2a02:1205:c6b4:14e0:fce2:45f2:5153:687a JOIN :#esoteric < 1415541994 292469 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq {1 2 4 3 5 6 8 10}{2dv}gB < 1415541994 475266 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : ERROR: Unknown command: (gB)! < 1415542003 210377 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ {1 2 4 3 5 6 8 10}{2dv}gB < 1415542003 393053 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@2a02:1205:c6b4:14e0:fce2:45f2:5153:687a PRIVMSG #esoteric : {{1} {2 4} {3 5} {6 8 10}} < 1415542008 462527 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi, mroman < 1415542014 122336 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1415542030 450785 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ %var=5 %var? < 1415542030 633406 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@2a02:1205:c6b4:14e0:fce2:45f2:5153:687a PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5 < 1415542058 422383 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ %deepReverse=q)<- {{1 2}} %deepReverse! < 1415542058 605215 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@2a02:1205:c6b4:14e0:fce2:45f2:5153:687a PRIVMSG #esoteric : ) < 1415542066 336084 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ %deepReverse={)<-} {{1 2}} %deepReverse! < 1415542066 538756 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@2a02:1205:c6b4:14e0:fce2:45f2:5153:687a PRIVMSG #esoteric : {{2 1}} < 1415542808 505706 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@2a02:1205:c6b4:14e0:fce2:45f2:5153:687a QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1415544059 381929 :nyuszika7h!nyuszika7h@cadoth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I read that as [Mail Merge] [times out] < 1415544149 746271 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that's the intended meaning. < 1415544162 566370 :nyuszika7h!nyuszika7h@cadoth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah me too < 1415544187 304721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you mail out some merge times? < 1415544222 943368 :nyuszika7h!nyuszika7h@cadoth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1415544282 448165 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you're not a reporter from the Mail Merge Times. < 1415544282 762571 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1415544910 759009 :nys!~nys@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1415545446 280951 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40819&oldid=40806 5* 03YoYoYonnY 5* (-124) 10 < 1415547277 655922 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ %deepReverse={)<-} {{1 2} {3 4}} %deepReverse! < 1415547821 236746 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: ISOCELES CHICKEN < 1415548262 577775 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :magnus! < 1415548911 299870 :MDream!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDude < 1415550601 135600 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch JOIN :#esoteric < 1415550612 710895 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ %deepReverse={)<-} {{1 2} {3 4}} %deepReverse! < 1415550613 926292 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : {{2 1} {4 3}} < 1415550635 288524 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ |[1 2 3.+.+]| < 1415550635 511203 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : {6} < 1415550644 846519 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ |[1 2 3.+.+^^?*]| < 1415550645 58512 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : {36} < 1415550651 552439 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ |[1 2 3.+.+y^^?*Y]| < 1415550651 736420 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : {6 ^^ ?*} < 1415550666 857031 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ |[1 2 3.+.+y^^?*Y]|s0"0"ev < 1415550667 651620 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : ERROR: Unknown command: (ev)! < 1415550672 556268 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1415550700 630238 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ |[1 2 3.+.+y^^?*Y]|s0"0"gve! < 1415550701 448035 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : 36 < 1415550714 11877 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah < 1415550844 27363 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-thfdqbjngmxxnmdf JOIN :#esoteric < 1415550883 250497 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ %data={1 2 3} |[%data?++]| < 1415550883 477247 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : {6} < 1415550911 847801 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ %data={10ro} |[%data!++]| < 1415550912 844482 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : {55} < 1415550935 723535 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ %q={%q!}%q! < 1415550936 35548 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ain't nobody got time fo' dat! < 1415551124 152419 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ %data=5 "data"Gv < 1415551124 935838 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : ERROR: Unknown command: (Gv)! < 1415551126 964510 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsQ %data=5 "data"gv < 1415551127 271645 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5 < 1415551833 119955 :blsqbot2!~blsqbot2@227-147.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1415552370 417549 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40820&oldid=40819 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+906) 10Input Number < 1415552410 290304 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40821&oldid=40820 5* 03Rdebath 5* (-2) 10Sigh < 1415553440 485206 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1415555928 621961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1415555940 55291 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1415557294 959395 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1415558685 923319 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.189.80.24 JOIN :#esoteric < 1415558758 999084 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1415559473 60391 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.189.80.24 QUIT : < 1415560334 466995 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh no! it's multiplying < 1415560344 756125 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: TomPN has written a page about another language < 1415560358 728043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just as bad? < 1415560366 810189 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, I haven't looked yet < 1415560372 665312 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :want to see what he did with Musical Notes first < 1415560374 655537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, I saw that come up in the RC feed, but didn't notice the author < 1415560382 627108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the preview looked reasonable < 1415560406 633668 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Musical notes still says "loops cannot be nested" < 1415560496 87354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first oddity I notice about Dimensions, which is about halfway down the page, is that the command for reading a velocity set from memory is lumped in with I/O instructions for no sane reason at all < 1415560540 272150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and loops /still/ don't nest (in Dimensions, that is) < 1415560548 133939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, the non-nestting version of Dimensions loops may actually be TC < 1415560550 810776 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nesting < 1415560559 325744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because each ] matches the most recently arriving [, which may be enough power < 1415560789 804544 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: this description of Dimension seems to be unclear the same way as that of Musical Notes. is it only the data memory and data pointer that moves in a 52 dimensional array, or also the instruction pointer somehow? And what's the global topology? < 1415560814 23758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :instructions are still completely linear < 1415560818 977684 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note the unadorned "previous") < 1415560835 843798 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I currently consider TomPN to be in the category of "trying to make something beyond a BF derivative but has no idea how" < 1415560852 326708 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... < 1415560854 905977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. they don't seem to realise that adding more dimensions to the data storage simply makes programming easier, as you don't have to use them < 1415560960 123749 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should we introduce the rule that you can create a new language only if you have ascended a previously existing language? < 1415561005 608522 :nys!~nys@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i say we burn him < 1415561015 714430 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nys: no, we have to measure him to a duck first5 < 1415561034 133170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Should we introduce the rule that you can create a new language only if you have ascended a previously existing language? ← does that even make sense? < 1415561042 23057 :nys!~nys@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :touch < 1415561044 181238 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no < 1415561049 769283 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could define NetHack as a programming language, I've ascended that < 1415561057 563565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and am OK at defining arbitrary things to be programming languages < 1415561072 163993 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I'd love to make NetHack 4 TC, but can't figure out how < 1415561083 363875 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTML is a programming language! < 1415561088 176533 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't it already TC? < 1415561090 253851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, something involving rolling boulder traps dropping things between levels < 1415561101 988934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no infinite storage, and it's doubtful you can even construct a loop < 1415561110 136649 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is infinite storage in objects < 1415561137 217121 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :including nested containers < 1415561151 433653 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's probably not really infinite because you run out of address space eventually, < 1415561157 524723 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you probably don't want to change that, right? < 1415561238 982864 :nys!~nys@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :settle for turing complete with fine print < 1415561291 525312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the problem is the complete lack of comoutation < 1415561293 353207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*computation < 1415561293 545303 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for loop, I think you can, um, polymorph to a non-eating sessile monster and put on an amulet of unchanging while you still have movement points < 1415561302 124118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have one thing causing another thing to happen, directly < 1415561309 592202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only possibility I can think of is the monster AI < 1415561314 666936 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1415561316 391138 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has some Deadfish-like loopholes < 1415561323 828310 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(have you read track.c, by the way?) < 1415561331 240132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's short, and hilariously buggy) < 1415561336 812586 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we probably need some more special stuff for computation < 1415561345 144861 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I haven't read track.c and I don't plan to either < 1415561355 663059 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I want to read the monster AI, I read muse.c, that's more sensible < 1415561376 960251 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :muse.c both determines the starting inventory of items and what items monsters will use and how they use them < 1415561397 475201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :track.c determines how the monster tries to chase down the player < 1415561400 207596 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how http://trac.nethack4.org/ticket/710 came up < 1415561402 616220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is full of incorrect assuumptions < 1415561554 307420 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difficulty is that monsters don't interact with containers. they don't even pick them up, though a nymph may steal one. < 1415561589 273475 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like the player to be able to set up Dwarf Fortress-like contraptions < 1415561627 687872 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't really help computation, but I was thikning of a scroll of duplicate item < 1415561636 294749 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or a scroll effect, in any case) < 1415561648 827543 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Excess Flood < 1415561670 57947 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which lets you choose an existing item and create a cancelled copy, unless it's unique or an artifact < 1415561687 119859 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1415561690 530884 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should ticket that if I haven't yet < 1415561959 739326 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages-loud < 1415561959 923243 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan said 5h 52m 34s ago: what's with prescriptivists telling me not to use the word "trinary" <-- from a latin viewpoint, it's about like saying "threeth" in english < 1415561988 805641 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: good thing i'm not talking in latin hth < 1415562030 693179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's annoy everyone by calling it "threenary" < 1415562142 638012 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :3-nary is a reasonable name and would not annoy me < 1415562577 728144 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1415562771 853140 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1415563263 847231 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1415563296 353341 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ticketed it < 1415563329 299894 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-201-82.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, what should trinary really be called then? < 1415563357 505516 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: base three. < 1415563370 841600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ternary" is something I see quite a lot < 1415563385 709676 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, "ternary" is the usual name, but why bother, "base three" is clear enough < 1415563454 741157 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why bother with "binary"? < 1415563504 253890 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary and hexadecimal are common bases, but nobody designs ternary computers anymore < 1415563520 564742 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you make an esolang with base 3 operations, like trintercal, then sure, call it ternary < 1415563572 84535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely you mean terntercal!! < 1415563587 41579 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like a terangle < 1415563591 743996 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :threentercal < 1415563629 499664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TriINTERCAL is the official name, I believe < 1415563637 560572 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1415563675 14274 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the official name for the base 4, base 5, base 6, base 7 versions? < 1415563711 335835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also TriINTERCAL < 1415563728 130229 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you expected it to make sense, you picked the wrong language) < 1415564620 111812 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1415564629 634998 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1415564640 429743 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1415564677 339531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1415564722 188826 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.86.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1415564738 654922 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :any ideas for simple VMs that could be used for targets for compression < 1415564746 783165 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first one is just emit char + backrefs < 1415564753 868649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's being compressed here? < 1415564770 882412 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1415564774 743622 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :any binary file - of course it will only compress some of them < 1415564783 971059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean "any ideas for decompression algorithms, that I could invent matching compression algorithms for?" < 1415564799 717111 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, especially focused on making simple decompression VMs < 1415564803 659498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually was working on a compression algorithm of my own a while back; the decompressor was very simple, but the compressor quite complex < 1415564811 548562 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of thing was it? < 1415564814 349541 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it beat bzip2 but was worse than lzma, so I didn't continue using it < 1415564827 2350 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: are you compressing video? audio? text? they call for different decompression algorithms. < 1415564841 746229 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and basically, you could define a symbol as a single letter, or recursively in terms of other symbols < 1415564852 54396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the last symbol defined was the entire program < 1415564874 493377 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :straight line grammar? < 1415564881 643051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "aabaab" could be encoded as (in pseudocode, the actual compression was binary) "X=aa; Y=Xb; Z=YY" < 1415564890 361379 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see! I thoughht this was a really good approach < 1415564894 691076 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I considered adding parameters < 1415564906 675140 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. tag(T,B) = B < 1415564912 364965 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be used to compress HTML maybe < 1415564913 11930 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that sounds sort of like a compression with backreferences < 1415564925 403822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then that in turn was compressed by referring to symbols using numbers depending on how recently they'd been used < 1415564956 229328 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see, a huffman like entropy based compression is good for post processing < 1415564956 417395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, you have /huge/ scope for encoding optimizations, e.g. you can reorder symbol definitions to make the numbers smaller < 1415564972 830496 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh look, Mail Merge is now in post mortem < 1415564976 648997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the numbers themselves were "Huffman" coded, but with a fixed table based on the frequencies they normally showed up at < 1415564976 832846 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look what the people did < 1415565099 386167 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, nice! and this ruby solution doesn't even hard-code anything about this particular input instance < 1415565154 100453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: if you like I'll send you a copy of the decompressor and you can try to make a good compressor for it < 1415565207 158593 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the 0/ do in that? < 1415565209 427303 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats ok but thanks :) < 1415565214 253229 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, in the winner perl solution I mean < 1415565216 611463 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, even if you use only minimal compression on the numbers, it still beats gzip, which surprised me < 1415565233 511149 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1415565237 961157 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 0/ quits at the end < 1415565238 899451 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1415565241 780969 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that grammar based compression could be really really powerful yeah < 1415565250 906611 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice trick < 1415565254 451420 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so hard to actually find the structure in text < 1415565262 277246 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like parsing but you don't even know the AST yet < 1415565279 509930 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I also have a decompression algorithm that I need a compressor for, too. < 1415565304 475051 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Kind of) < 1415565307 31056 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: go on < 1415565337 985546 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK just a minute < 1415565347 881114 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh damn! < 1415565358 335086 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did I not notice that s///ger while doesn't need the spae < 1415565361 818967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: right; eventually I was reaching the point where compression took hours and only saved a few bytes compared to much faster encoders < 1415565367 667426 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that cost me a byte < 1415565395 497282 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.sequitur.info/ this has a linera time algorithm (not space though) < 1415565400 107727 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's meant to be quite good < 1415565403 49561 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1415565414 93038 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it targets quite restricted vm < 1415565428 134831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: linear time implies linear space unless you're doing something like using the address space as a hash table < 1415565439 376938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case, it takes non-linear time to zero the memory in advance < 1415565442 645446 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The decompressor is part of the program http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/interp/zorkmid.zip < 1415565453 913822 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not a professional golfer but I should have noticed that < 1415565456 772415 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh weird :S I guess they lie or I don't understand something < 1415565496 464989 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at the zprint() function. < 1415565512 693449 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you made a compression algorithm you could call it zzip38 < 1415565517 49849 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have already a way to encode a single string and ignoring the frequent words table. < 1415565568 77006 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, I have a collection of strings, and want to create a frequent words table for it. < 1415565596 504260 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :winzzo38 < 1415565633 339215 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently teebee used a different approach for his perl solution: no s///ger, instead printf s//%s/gr < 1415565636 306019 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1415565686 158230 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In addition, there is also suffix optimization and other stuff. Note that the frequent words table can point inside of another string as long as the other string contains no fwords itself; any call to debugger() indicates an error.) < 1415565700 129784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just me who replaces all the noneliminatable spaces in golfing submissions with unary +, because it looks linenoisier that way? < 1415565701 983279 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Calls to warn() are also errors.) < 1415565730 400343 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think I sometimes do that < 1415565747 896405 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: commas work in some cases when pluses don't < 1415565886 830511 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl 6 has a unary concat, too < 1415565937 911646 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what can you do with the space after the 0 in the block version of http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 ? < 1415565974 800107 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe you can just put that into the pack < 1415565975 975524 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try < 1415565982 137101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you have the space /before/ the 0 too, you can enclose the 0 in parens < 1415565984 270568 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you understand my problem now? < 1415565999 322278 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566000 65328 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just another Perl hacker, < 1415566001 825733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't gold, but fewer spaces < 1415566012 128858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that trailing comma is so curious < 1415566022 993841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there was a typo in an early JAPH, and everyone copied it < 1415566024 921080 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: one trick I used in that is to put one of the two newlines at an undelible space < 1415566057 361889 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,unpack+ab362,0,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566058 49547 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too many arguments for unpack at -e line 1, near "])" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors. < 1415566063 816771 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, unpack, not pack < 1415566099 898237 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so what would you do with the space after that zero? there's no space before it < 1415566106 337306 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, this isn't really golf < 1415566142 257364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I was looking at the unobfuscated example < 1415566159 713987 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does pack 'b' do? < 1415566168 209525 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack+b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y,for+0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566168 928719 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just another Perl hacker, < 1415566169 259279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a pack format for inserting zero bits < 1415566181 728635 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, all pack formats can output only bytes < 1415566187 541581 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack zb208,unpack+b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y,for+0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLBx)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566188 277098 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Invalid type 'z' in pack at -e line 1. < 1415566196 499203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack xb208,unpack+b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y,for+0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLBx)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566197 225367 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :33333333333333333333333333. < 1415566203 597801 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: b* outupts a number of bits but pads that to whole bytes < 1415566225 390698 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, and you're relying on alignment properties somehow < 1415566247 917596 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the... unobfuscated example? where? < 1415566254 372212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :earlier on the page < 1415566264 592534 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh... that's just as obfuscated, but with a saner formattingh < 1415566274 172668 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically the same with more spaces and newlines < 1415566282 660794 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there's some other punctuation difference, but I don't think so < 1415566315 397959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hmm, that 0 is an ASCII 0 (=48), rather than a binary 0 < 1415566323 588419 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can't replace it with x, which generates a byte's worth of zero bits < 1415566324 577090 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, there is, there's a prototype difference... wth does that do < 1415566348 64113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no, you're adding one bit's worth of zeroes? < 1415566351 6928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is confusing -( < 1415566353 779423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* :-( < 1415566370 537874 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, one bit. < 1415566376 63863 :DTSCode!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1415566391 511657 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: basically, it's storing a vector of GF(128) values in a string, one per byte, < 1415566407 192676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: aha, well according to the pack docs, it just checks if the ASCII character is even or odd < 1415566420 258753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,b.unpack+b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y,for+0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLBx)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566423 410734 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I shift each of those left by unpacking to bits, adding a single bit, repacking < 1415566426 341623 :DTSCode!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode JOIN :#esoteric < 1415566429 252535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,b.unpack+b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y,for+0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLBx)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566430 96306 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fb0.0.V < 1415566433 978000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1415566442 975023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what have I done wrong? < 1415566472 31211 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, it's a fragile japh, < 1415566487 629484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : `perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack+b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y,for+0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLBx)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566495 100248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack+b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y,for+0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLBx)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566495 857318 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fb0.0.V < 1415566501 549475 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, miscopied your perl-e < 1415566513 314074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLBx)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566513 975386 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fb0.0.V < 1415566522 142339 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK this is silly < 1415566527 254590 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come, when I copy-and-paste your JAPH, it doesn't work for me? < 1415566564 13121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,unpack+ab362,0,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLBx)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566564 686356 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too many arguments for unpack at -e line 1, near "])" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors. < 1415566587 353957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLBx)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566588 216666 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fb0.0.V < 1415566595 708019 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=581159 is more fragile. you can't modify it at all < 1415566612 513398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you post it again, if you can get it to work, change '0 .' to 'b.' and try again < 1415566637 393153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think you can save another space by changing $y to some unused special variable (I don't think you're using $.) < 1415566643 188860 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566643 961964 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just another Perl hacker, < 1415566656 625290 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,b.unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566657 474794 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just another Perl hacker, < 1415566660 636475 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that works < 1415566663 156109 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1415566673 229255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come, when I copy-and-paste your JAPH, it doesn't work? < 1415566675 769009 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,b.unpack+b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y,for+0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566676 540252 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just another Perl hacker, < 1415566683 686746 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: dunno, maybe you mispasted < 1415566688 262176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,b.unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLBx)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566688 957267 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fb0.0.V < 1415566704 42955 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,b.unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLBx)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566705 238014 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fb0.0.V < 1415566709 319791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's using both clipboards < 1415566714 779430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to look for differences in the log < 1415566757 995070 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, oho < 1415566765 821523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e sub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,b.unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r < 1415566766 448347 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just another Perl hacker, < 1415566785 811563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently my client was interpreting the %O as a color code, I had to escape it < 1415566790 728427 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1415566802 238689 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, < 1415566814 704234 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e eval for'for$=(2..27){$*=0;$*=($**$=+ord)%127,for/./gs;print+chr$*}'."\n#ig\\tq\24^-/v\c^l,\23\$%\3\ta2\tk\b\c\)\x18 -- ambrus" < 1415566815 356585 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​$* is no longer supported at (eval 1) line 1. \ Just another Perl hacker, < 1415566830 62597 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :be glad it's not this japh, this one basically can't be modified at all without breaking everything < 1415566836 699243 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it uses the whole string to compute the output < 1415566843 601600 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the eval for part < 1415566844 26583 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vddrvbyuuotbfwox JOIN :#esoteric < 1415566848 987168 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's from http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=581159 < 1415566861 963844 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo anything and it breaks < 1415566945 65237 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -Xe eval for'for$=(2..27){$*=0;$*=($**$=+ord)%127,for/./gs;print+chr$*}'."\n#ig\\tq\24^-/v\c^l,\23\$%\3\ta2\tk\b\c\)\x18 -- ambrus" < 1415566945 789994 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just another Perl hacker, < 1415567072 909135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -Xe eval for'for$=(2..27){$*=0;$*=($**$=+ord)%127,for/./gs;print+chr$*}' . "\n#ig\\tq\24^-/v\c^l,\23\$%\3\ta2\tk\b\c\)\x18 -- ambrus" < 1415567073 595803 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just another Perl hacker, < 1415567079 214901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree < 1415567102 632249 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you can modify the part outside the string < 1415567180 392984 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see the decompression algorithm I had and needed a compressor for? (It isn't a very good compression, but you can do better than Infocom did.) Also, for a compression algorithm that works for a single string if the frequent words table is already filled in, see http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/doc/tricky.txt under "Black-Johansen". < 1415567194 371635 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I declare it a new #esoteric tradition that when talking about a JAPH, you ensure that the word comes just before a place where you'd naturally put a comma anyway < 1415567198 703928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to leave the spelling ambiguous < 1415567209 206041 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like the original brainfuck spec never used the word at the start of a sentence < 1415567230 888382 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.86.32 PART :#esoteric < 1415567240 591342 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.86.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1415567395 352223 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have these things called quotation marks which let you write “Just another Perl hacker,” unambiguously. < 1415567457 942230 :Lymia!~fujoshi@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the fun in that/ < 1415567538 786848 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: except it doesn't work < 1415567539 969438 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't like those kind of qutation marks then you can also use ASCII quotations marks. (Assuming that you want to use quotations marks at all, which you don't.) < 1415567546 557959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e print “Just another Perl hacker,” < 1415567547 400517 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unrecognized character \xE2; marked by <-- HERE after print <-- HERE near column 8 at -e line 1. < 1415567567 324093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl-e use utf8; print “Just another Perl hacker,” < 1415567568 125893 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unrecognized character \xE2; marked by <-- HERE after f8; print <-- HERE near column 17 at -e line 1. < 1415567585 307144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e use utf8; print “Just another Perl hacker,” < 1415567586 107384 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unrecognized character \xE2; marked by <-- HERE after f8; print <-- HERE near column 18 at -e line 1. < 1415567590 363434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, weird < 1415567598 46852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe `perl is doing weird thing with encodings already < 1415567611 661096 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you had it coming by trying to run non-obfuscated Perl < 1415567635 304032 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-26-148.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1415567641 41449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: no, I expected it to fail < 1415567649 206677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't get why the error messages is the same in both cases < 1415567655 927042 :serika!~serika@unaffiliated/serika JOIN :#esoteric < 1415567698 467536 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome serika < 1415567699 273567 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :serika: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1415567719 897235 :serika!~serika@unaffiliated/serika PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi! < 1415567720 145331 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1415567828 900197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1415567853 331580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1415567859 782839 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1415567896 792142 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.86.32 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1415567998 485210 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1415568010 636571 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.86.32 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb wins, i think < 1415568022 714670 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweeeeeeeeeeeet < 1415568048 152709 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.86.32 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!blsq "hi"Q < 1415568048 375042 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric : hi < 1415568056 871311 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.86.32 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope it's blsqbot by a nose! < 1415568077 980971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (hi)S < 1415568078 165037 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1415568110 439466 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.86.32 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit. < 1415568124 403305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are plenty of other esolang bots < 1415568131 165390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has to be in an actual esolang to count < 1415568148 246668 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ hi < 1415568148 658121 :j-bot!~j-bot@li339-21.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: |value error: hi < 1415568151 895903 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1415568157 144583 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ t=.hi < 1415568157 598161 :j-bot!~j-bot@li339-21.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: |ok < 1415568160 484425 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1415568169 185408 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 'hi' < 1415568169 689673 :j-bot!~j-bot@li339-21.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hi < 1415568171 473400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! bf ++++++++++[->++++++++++<]>++++.+. < 1415568172 353037 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1415568173 902750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that < 1415568178 281633 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.86.32 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice one. < 1415568193 243386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can almost certainly be done shorter, but I was trying to do it mentally and don't have the constants table memorized < 1415568222 568192 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf8 ++[>+<+++++]>+.+. < 1415568224 828511 :EgoBot!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :gh < 1415568229 707231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops < 1415568252 293709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf8 +[->-[<]>--]>-.+. < 1415568252 811840 :EgoBot!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1415568255 581361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1415568260 162497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was actually checking the wiki < 1415568269 242840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :current shortest known hi < 1415568439 345249 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that's really short < 1415568524 617432 :AndoDaan_!~Daanando@188.188.75.226 JOIN :#esoteric < 1415568555 531940 :AndoDaan_!~Daanando@188.188.75.226 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a way to prove some bf code is the shortest for a given task without an exhaustive search? < 1415568556 835672 :DTSCode!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1415568573 372788 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AndoDaan_: in general, no < 1415568575 461991 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :AndoDaan_: no, and you can't prove even with an exhaustive search < 1415568578 4887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :halting problem and all that < 1415568582 304496 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for non-trivial tasks < 1415568583 362486 :AndoDaan_!~Daanando@188.188.75.226 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1415568586 219411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes, the answer is yes in special cases < 1415568600 420037 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, for very short programs you could be sure < 1415568617 834361 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.86.32 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1415568622 481049 :AndoDaan_!~Daanando@188.188.75.226 NICK :AndoDaan < 1415568649 226927 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course you probably have to assume a particular variant on what to allow (overflow, underflow, left from starting position) < 1415568674 483695 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said !bf8 explicitly for a reason :-) < 1415568697 917012 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does that have an infinite tape both sides of the starting point? < 1415568700 382738 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.75.226 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. I wrote a bf interpreter the other day, and so many option just for it's basic form... < 1415568703 573095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wiki currently doesn't assume that left from starting position is legal, it adds extra > if necessary < 1415568711 455930 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AndoDaan: right < 1415568718 573063 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :AndoDaan: see < 1415568722 119730 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google kolgomorov complexity < 1415568723 136444 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity < 1415568723 320745 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Title: Kolmogorov complexity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < 1415568724 481430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, did anything come of the Big BF Standardisation Vote? < 1415568768 731400 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.75.226 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've read abpit kolgomorov a couple of times, interesting stuff. < 1415568770 68510 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically an exhaustive search won't work either, since you can't prove a given partial function is implemented by a given program. math < 1415568791 629819 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: yep. that's what we were trying to say. < 1415568813 295759 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can write an search that prints out things it can't fully understand < 1415568828 239593 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been trying to figure more about kolmogorov and turbulence but the book is checke dout from the library, it sucks < 1415568830 371775 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you can then prove dont terminate or so manually or add extra features to the program < 1415568834 832560 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tao said navier-stokes might be some turing garbage, too < 1415568845 361944 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is some limit below which an exhaustive search actually does work < 1415568855 459548 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: if you assume stuff like execution time within our lifetime, sure < 1415568857 816681 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this may or may not be discoverable by exhaustive search < 1415568861 323359 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :since game of life is turing complete it's not hard to imagine navier stokes being too < 1415568872 835901 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's really much more complex since it works on real number field < 1415568886 270789 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like just given that its automatically not computable, isn't it?) < 1415568887 78453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still interested in the "what's the shortest BF program that's beyond human ability to determine whether it halts" problem < 1415568906 795864 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'd guess it's quite short < 1415568908 465726 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, me too - I have an idea to find it < 1415568909 935162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :working on reals doesn't /necessarily/ mean uncomputable, but doing anything nontrivial with them normally does < 1415568915 268814 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: no, lots of smooth operations on reals are computable < 1415568924 801996 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike, oh ok interesting! < 1415568927 792772 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like you're asking whether water is moving exactly at 5 m/s, that would be impossible < 1415568930 916519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :comparing them is particularly nasty < 1415568942 50484 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can i PM you < 1415568950 252000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: physically, yes < 1415568956 431474 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still interested in that too < 1415568960 436603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for do I want you to PM me, that rather depends on what you're PMing me about < 1415568965 536922 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I brought it up again recently < 1415568970 290969 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :finding short brainfuck programs < 1415568970 612512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's something that needs to be private, PM is fine < 1415568983 821623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's just "thing that would spam up the channel" but it's ontopic, the channel is better < 1415569004 896513 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's particularly spammy, like you're going to paste 100-line programs, we have #esoteric-blah but a pastebin is better < 1415569006 926877 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, in what? < 1415569021 974237 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: in what? < 1415569022 524065 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok ill say it in -blah if anyone wants to hear < 1415569026 90951 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm still interested in that too < 1415569027 873382 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1415569029 373629 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bf programs thing < 1415569032 83458 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1415569042 474438 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I achieved that with my bot that connects an emulated DOS machine to irc < 1415569065 626387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right, I remember that < 1415569071 201327 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I knew it's like that so I didn't even try to remember to bring it here < 1415569131 428963 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/remember to// < 1415569590 867752 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have a -blah? < 1415569600 443931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do very occasionally < 1415569609 319316 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might as well idle there too < 1415569618 574278 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea why short bf programs would not be a topic of discussion here < 1415569622 706338 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor do I < 1415569628 927743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the discussion isn't spammy enough to not hold here < 1415569637 746380 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's cosier < 1415569640 702545 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds more on-topic than most discussion that takes place in here < 1415569644 448022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cozier? how does spelling work < 1415569644 631797 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sinier < 1415569652 52209 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :sinister? < 1415569693 404091 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, if you come up with a program that can be proven to be impossible to prove the haltingness of, do share, i've never been able to understand that intuitively despite my math powerz < 1415569694 248131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "cosier" is correct; at least, my spellchecker likes it < 1415569701 810904 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cossackier < 1415569712 964279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: the problem is, the existing constructions tend to be quite complex < 1415569721 625515 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly. discuss short BF programs here unless that discussion would derail some more important discussion like one about nethack. < 1415569724 315438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically because you have to embed the entire rules of the logic you're using in the program < 1415569738 226984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: we already have #nethack4 for discussion about nethack, though < 1415569746 100706 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, something like "this program halts only if the goldbach conjecture is true", i can get that < 1415569763 921474 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, I know, I'm joined to like five nethack channels because people can't keep it together < 1415569776 505456 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess making a program that halts only if the continuum hypothesis is true doesn't make much sense < 1415569795 533519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm currently in 8 NetHack channels, and parted #interhack (which would be the ninth) to make room for #esoteric-blah < 1415569803 804907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have a "only one screenful of channels" policy) < 1415569814 549889 :DTSCode!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode NICK :dTSCode < 1415569827 83422 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric #nethack4 #nethack #nethack-dev #devnull_nethack < 1415569839 309474 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what does "one screenful" mean? < 1415569841 176085 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :#nethack-nethack, for discussion of implementing nethack in nethack < 1415569858 422786 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a program that can be proven to be impossible to prove the haltingness of" < 1415569861 167642 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me, someone who is not a programmer linked to that nethack speedrun repo ais is in < 1415569864 74045 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tripped me out < 1415569865 435525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: that it's possible to fit all the tabs in the width of my screen, without scrolling < 1415569872 147668 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong number < 1415569873 807699 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could write a proof checker for PA or so < 1415569875 539146 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1415569880 390116 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :and diagonalize over it < 1415569883 143760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: we think NetHack is sub-TC (and, in fact, unusable for programming) < 1415569886 152052 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it would be impossible to prove that halts with PA < 1415569888 584892 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's unclear /what/ the right channel for that is < 1415569891 547894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here or #nethack4, most likely < 1415569931 581852 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me that nobody's commentd on the one contribution to the esolang wiki i've actually made, so out of spite i'll just have to go back to talking about nothing < 1415569936 740690 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: The continuum hypothesis thing would amount to deriving an upper bound to counterexamples of the CH, I think. < 1415569949 997193 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: err < 1415569956 52985 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just thinking of it cos CH is independent of ZFC and all < 1415569962 281779 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore this, I'll go hide under a stone. < 1415569963 924587 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that programs use ZFC or... something < 1415569969 611626 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :you couldn't use CH I think < 1415569976 766529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: I normally don't focus on /who/ makes contributions < 1415569988 219592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the musical notes person made another language, and didn't spam it to the main page this time < 1415569991 74290 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you have a program that can be proven to halt under some axiom set but not another, well i mean of course you can < 1415569995 298197 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dumb question < 1415570005 212604 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it was a talk page thing rather than a language, is probably why < 1415570010 337920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does a decent job of trying not to be a BF derivative, while being stuck in an utterly low-level imperative mindset < 1415570013 304636 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have some esolang ideas but they'd be hard to describe sanely < 1415570015 579874 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: for some reason I was thinking of the Riemann Hypothesis, and I will not endeavour to find out why. < 1415570020 341548 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh. < 1415570025 732953 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: I was going to say "that's never stopped me" < 1415570028 125784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except, it actually has < 1415570038 399201 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language that must not be named < 1415570053 856949 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an esolang idea too, but it doesn't work out well and isn't very eso too (not that that's stopped some people) < 1415570056 991651 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainly the problem is that i don't have enough experience with auto mechanics to think of a good description language, but oh well < 1415570062 855832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll revise it to "it takes quite a while before I eventually give up, and when I do, I give up really strongly, and bind other people to never speak of the issue again" < 1415570077 906927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, I hadn't been thinking about the issue for /months/ < 1415570083 585471 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not something I want to think about right now < 1415570085 378 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, sorry i guess < 1415570087 858423 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm probably not really an eso language _create_ type of guy < 1415570094 225756 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I create other eso stuff < 1415570103 438148 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or non-eso < 1415570117 659638 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue might be that i'm more into real numbers than most people here, which is kind of a hilarious thing to say or think but oh well < 1415570128 144118 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to make a reversible logic based thing. < 1415570139 565341 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen the crabputer < 1415570147 71133 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not really related, i just want everyone to have seen the crabputer < 1415570164 278561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: anyway, anything less complex than http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snowflake should be easy to describe by comparison < 1415570165 508331 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that? < 1415570170 932266 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: linky? < 1415570174 273909 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather try to make it non-esoteric, but it might end up as such regardless. < 1415570181 880856 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749 < 1415570185 796505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the big problem now is, I need a Snowflake impl, on the basis that as far as I know, nobody else has managed to successfully read the resulting description < 1415570188 986972 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on billiard ball computers which is how i thought of it < 1415570213 807276 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :real number just don't know when to stop < 1415570218 44835 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :*numbers < 1415570225 954972 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not really a matter of complexity so much as... i guess i don't know how to constrain it in an interesting way < 1415570231 204233 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, one thing I love about Snowflake is that it's not reversible just for fun, but because the purpose of the language can only (AFAICT) be implemented via reversibility < 1415570242 173413 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: crazy < 1415570250 773678 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the idea is the "program" is a fire control computer schematic, but the problem is i can't think of a way to describe that without just having arbitrary schematics, which is just boring < 1415570256 851488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the fact that it looks vaguely like brainfuck despite having an entirely unrelated meaning is also good < 1415570258 910615 :MoALTz!~no@user-188-33-211-16.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1415570319 85384 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: does alexandroff compactification constitute stopping < 1415570334 34719 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what looks vaguely like brainfuck? befunge? < 1415570369 904057 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original (i think) paper on reversible computing is neat, btw, by landauer or whoever < 1415570375 549246 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thermo~ < 1415570387 219862 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea I have is a language that's basically a way of describing a single huge reversible function. < 1415570402 187427 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: +[+[]-[]] < 1415570404 343721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sort of thing < 1415570413 989659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly made of +-[] and the brackets match < 1415570421 508090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes it look like BF until you realise that it makes no sense as BF < 1415570435 351274 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still a valid program innit < 1415570437 749285 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a boring one < 1415570464 363483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an infinite loop as BF < 1415570474 191369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust snowflake +[+[]-[]] < 1415570476 916513 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a no-op as BF Joust < 1415570478 112059 :zemhill!bfjoust@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523.snowflake: points -30.67, score 3.72, rank 47/47 < 1415570482 850020 :EgoBot!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for ais523_snowflake: 6.1 < 1415570486 925084 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have a few basic operations, an if statement, and the ability to call functions. < 1415570506 122998 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, that looks like that strange language (not intended to be esoteric I think, but it sure looked like one) I've once seen < 1415570526 368457 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one that tried to pretend to be totalistic and Turing-complete, and pretend that lists and numbers are isomorphic < 1415570530 698635 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I doubt any other language works quite like Snowflake < 1415570532 408449 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno its name < 1415570537 892508 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude, there are reversible programming languages - you can run them backwards and forwards < 1415570538 76561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most languages are not on a quest for self-perfection < 1415570541 484388 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, I just mean the +[+[]-[]] syntax < 1415570541 668387 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: I was thinking of individual numbers and their n-ary expansion. < 1415570546 377967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ah right < 1415570546 755391 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1415570567 311490 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't "if" destroy information < 1415570576 293082 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of them have some kind of stack, though. < 1415570589 417435 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: or perhaps, rational approximations. just to clarify that rational numbers *are* nice. :P < 1415570609 586219 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than using a fixed set of memory addresses. < 1415570630 505976 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might not be turing complete if you restrict memory that much < 1415570642 510723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Snowflake's a good example of a reversible command set < 1415570649 880141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had to be very 100% reversible because of how it works < 1415570661 31873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so loops and conditionals were implemented… oddly < 1415570684 9621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most operations can only be written reliably if you know, for certain, something that /isn't/ on top of the stack < 1415570693 752215 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it won't be, unless you modify it to pretend it has an infinite repeating input structure. < 1415570697 152563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is harder than it seems, as programs have to be quite good at editing their own source code < 1415570712 72716 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or infinitely repeating structure. < 1415570723 837430 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1415570788 991765 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going more for something that can be implimented as a digital signal processor, though. < 1415570906 876823 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan Oh I didn't realize that golf.shinh.org allows omitting several trailing newlines... < 1415570907 99136 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1415570908 357805 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it'll likely be Harvard architecture, and thus unable to modify itself at all. < 1415570928 32096 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`js print(1) < 1415570930 63467 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1415570943 254511 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`js print(+[+[]-[]]) // maybe it reminded you of JavaScript? < 1415570945 364880 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1415570964 964919 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's intended to be esoteric. < 1415571063 550927 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: That's the thing. "If" statements preserve reversability by locking out any change to the conditional variable while inside it. < 1415571065 766236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO, if you're designing a new language and don't intend it to be esoteric, you don't have a sufficient grip on the problem you're trying to solve < 1415571077 469954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible exception: if you're designing it to be used by other people < 1415571137 58519 :vanila!~user@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude, that's interesting but I can't understan how? < 1415571141 268363 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's "If (A), do [function] with variables (B, C, D,... etc.)." < 1415571171 171150 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then inside the function, you only have access to the variables passed to it. < 1415571193 886713 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"for division, you multiply the list by the number you want to divide by, then cut the product down to the size of the original list, and then undo the multiplication" < 1415571220 197423 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can't make a recursive function unless it's parametric, allowing each iteration to have at least one variable less than the one calling it. < 1415571445 597424 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-30-175.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should just make diagrams, or implement the language. < 1415572221 624303 :AndoDaan_!~Daanando@188.188.94.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1415572226 757111 :AndoDaan!~Daanando@188.188.75.226 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1415572371 938682 :AndoDaan_!~Daanando@188.188.94.13 NICK :AndoDaan < 1415572600 460623 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1415573649 240173 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1415573681 18314 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1415573782 55603 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1415573818 259481 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-26-148.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1415574163 492269 :dTSCode!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1415574231 953130 :kcm1700!~kcm1700@175.117.8.72 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1415574671 350478 :kcm1700!~kcm1700@175.117.8.72 JOIN :#esoteric < 1415574890 404794 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages- < 1415574890 627322 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e said 1h 6m 23s ago: Oh I didn't realize that golf.shinh.org allows omitting several trailing newlines... < 1415574891 721357 :Vorpal_!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal NICK :Vorpal < 1415575122 352359 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well i noticed how it always leaves off the final newline when displaying output, so it seemed logical to check if that happened for any number... < 1415575150 934979 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i was inspired by HackEgo, which does that same thing < 1415575170 995877 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the < 1415575289 910468 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i didn't remember i actually did manage to use pattern guards in that one < 1415575301 944715 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED < 1415575622 333663 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1415575652 143101 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and that's where you used that "where" that i was hinting that you might improve with pattern guards, funny how it tied < 1415576497 92371 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many bits does a process ID have? < 1415576597 702145 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: 15 < 1415576614 992276 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1415576629 502906 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :posix seems to just say pid_t is a signed integer < 1415576645 718815 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well, that's typical range, don't take that a portably true everywhere < 1415576698 56847 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The clock sequence in a UUID is only 14-bits long though. < 1415576761 792297 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh: Under Linux, the maximum process ID is given by the pseudo-file /proc/sys/kernel/pid_max < 1415576793 267922 :Bike!~Glossina@stepheast-v394-wired-gw.net.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah 15 here < 1415576917 519547 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1415576998 929313 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: as an idea of how to account where the "where": length "where" == length "cycle". < 1415577025 189456 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/where/for/ < 1415577214 144784 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you send a message to IETF to tell them to add another UUID version? < 1415577217 4677 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm saying that because they serve approximately the same purpose: making the mail body available to the worker loop multiple times. < 1415577241 527616 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1415577247 189030 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone told me that a missile address is 48-bits long, so that fits in the node field. < 1415577269 615974 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However if a process ID is 15-bits long then it is one bit too long for the clock sequence field. < 1415577347 731680 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ah right, that's the part which only works because anagolf ignores trailing newlines _and_ the last @i is only followed by newlines < 1415577398 270594 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah. < 1415577427 244059 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I discarded the "cycle" idea because I didn't expect that to work ... lucky to have tied :) < 1415577450 202044 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now I can claim that my solution is better because it cheats less. < 1415577510 817682 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and once more it seems to be hard to combine any ideas to produce a smaller one) < 1415577535 472397 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :solution, that is.