< 1417997387 312297 :CakeMeat!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao NICK :Lilin < 1417997720 661627 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Quit: *bubbles away* < 1417997818 114517 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1417998302 385171 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: what was that solar flare site again? < 1417998348 243424 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the daystar is out there < 1417998522 236371 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one? http://www.tesis.lebedev.ru/en/sun_flares.html I don't recall for sure, I just googled for solar flares. < 1417998555 341636 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, perhaps BLC ought to be added to anagol < 1417998650 937731 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :may hard to sell with the "universal lambda" variant already there. < 1417998709 484187 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :“Copyright 1953-2014”. nice. < 1417998722 889599 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good point < 1417999078 314993 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks int-e < 1417999736 397945 :tromp!~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418000026 444173 :S1!~S1@p4FF93E66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: S1 < 1418000870 567973 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1418001068 416260 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1418001375 994358 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I've been reading up on turing tarpits < 1418001383 770168 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So fascinating < 1418001445 730409 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dost thou needith a hug? < 1418001499 170225 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swatteth Lilin for bad grammar -----###
< 1418001524 458164 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :How could you #-# < 1418001532 122332 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's all it takest? < 1418001540 963775 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S BECAUSE I'M A GRAMMAR NAZI < 1418001558 340141 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: is very dirty shachaf < 1418001583 831371 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :He likes to hit people < 1418001777 332969 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION lives for the hit parades
< 1418001803 412853 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I like to be hit. And yet it doesn't work out. < 1418002402 628616 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh mai shachaf thats dirty < 1418002422 647645 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if you stopped changing your nick every few days. < 1418002451 807533 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1418002467 753379 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its easier for me to lose myself < 1418002477 292312 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry < 1418002825 890342 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if P != NP why the heck can't we prove it? < 1418002889 498698 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean all you have to do is find ONE problem in NP and prove it's not in P, right? < 1418002964 769903 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and it's damn hard < 1418003018 293204 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but theres a million problems in NP. how many are not in P? < 1418003111 851684 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(how many are suspected to no tbe in P) < 1418003215 730239 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: one of the basic problems is that we don't have a real grip on how much power P itself has < 1418003269 398129 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, it is very hard to prove that something _cannot_ be done in P, if none of the simple diagonalization tricks work. < 1418003269 914735 :dianne!~diannes@unaffiliated/dianne QUIT :Read error: error:1408F119:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:decryption failed or bad record mac < 1418003310 163151 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has been proved, essentially, that diagonalization _cannot_ work to prove P != NP < 1418003394 923785 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is essentially extremely hard to prove something is not in P < 1418003434 375925 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. because of NP-completeness, we already _know_ which problems have to not be in P for it to be different. < 1418003442 375842 :dianne!~diannes@unaffiliated/dianne JOIN :#esoteric < 1418003522 14964 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we prove a subset of P? what about 'polynomial, degree below 4' < 1418003543 463582 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there is a proof that SAT cannot be linear time iirc < 1418003550 556272 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured out how to solve it, actually < 1418003565 263542 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :3x³ - 2x² != 2x < 1418003587 128147 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can tell that the polynomial doesn't equal the thing that isn't a polynomial < 1418003592 81130 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because degrees above N^5 with a reasonable constant are almost useless anyway. < 1418003594 313008 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, P != NP < 1418003607 526997 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats CrazyM4n -----###
< 1418003612 71371 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1418003679 387039 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whøarjan < 1418003684 177716 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :two swats on the same screen < 1418003691 585022 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking < 1418003707 472294 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in other words, proving that an NP-complete problem can't be solved with degree N^4 or below would have most of the same practical consequences < 1418003709 101173 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you have a big screen < 1418003731 181579 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: or small text hth < 1418003753 417572 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :my screen's resolution is so high that things break all the time :'( < 1418003765 702087 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: there's this thing i've seen mentioned - let me try to find it < 1418003886 629124 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm http://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2004/06/impagliazzos-five-worlds.html it's not as relevant to what you said < 1418003920 882381 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure the possibility of "P = NP but with high exponent" has been discussed here and there, though < 1418004078 910904 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1418004119 705256 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like for example we have prime number tests in (logn)&6 < 1418004133 383151 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(log n)^6 < 1418004270 422982 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a large constant too < 1418004551 724620 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm eggnog < 1418004762 325002 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.90.10 QUIT :Quit: bbl < 1418004905 163 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418005100 551331 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ask oerjan It hasn't been proven that SAT cannot be linear time (unless you forbid linear space) < 1418005100 730983 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1418005512 219608 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww I can't just go out and buy some Vantablack < 1418005519 825943 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is extremely dissappointed
< 1418005629 280942 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that stuff sounds cool < 1418005647 413670 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whenever you eat a chicken egg < 1418005654 444886 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are eating its period < 1418005657 796336 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1418005663 513393 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1418005696 370315 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :People always say im eating a chicken fetus < 1418005708 698431 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you are eating something worse < 1418006947 192984 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what Vantablack feels like < 1418007157 768779 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's... it's disturbingly dark. I need to buy some. < 1418008106 378907 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: ULTRAVIOLET CHICKEN < 1418008350 842020 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :goths are gonna wear vantablack dresses < 1418008603 463127 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man, it looks like a hole in the photos < 1418008659 586440 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, pretty awesome < 1418008757 80659 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1418009049 517492 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1418010683 489815 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1418012189 939826 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418012268 89691 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm trying to devise a type theory where, if a function is definable in the type theory, then the function's output length grows at most polynomially in its input length. < 1418012275 868439 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which raises a question. < 1418012299 851725 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The type theory should allow higher-order functions, whose inputs are other functions. But what's the length of a function? < 1418012361 433944 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :17 < 1418012374 378166 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.65.206 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418012377 725133 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah... I think you're right. < 1418012387 863392 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're welcome < 1418012391 240531 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obvious when you think about it < 1418012397 932172 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, right. < 1418012429 285037 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the string "a function" contains ten letters, but the largest prime number no larger than ten is seven, so you have to add seven. < 1418012540 425393 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precisely < 1418012550 171709 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conveniently, we don't have to add any more because 17 itself is a prime < 1418012563 959311 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1418012650 874680 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :More seriously, I think functions ought to be constant, because for something like concatMap the sizes you care about are the lists < 1418012756 882299 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that make sense? < 1418012765 606946 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "ought to be constant". < 1418012835 645583 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, (a -> b) has the same size as () < 1418012952 10278 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not experienced in type theory) < 1418013008 899201 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're dealing with polynomials, it doesn't matter which constant it is unless that is 0 < 1418013027 191930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(forall a b. a -> b) is uninhabited < 1418013068 487782 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I meant for arbitrary a and b < 1418013091 487932 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so (Int -> Void) should have one inhabitant? :p < 1418013106 8824 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a (() -> [()]) seems like it should have the same length as the corresponding [()]. < 1418013166 960588 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I don't think size is the same thing as number of inhabitants in this context < 1418013179 512052 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, that is a good point < 1418013186 579487 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't really look too much at the context, true. < 1418013230 682176 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe something like RHS/LHS? < 1418013251 544132 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's stupid... < 1418013269 117016 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not constant for a particular function < 1418013339 203701 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's consider concatMap. Its type is (a -> [b]) -> [a] -> [b]. < 1418013374 55978 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly if f :: a -> [b] grows polynomially, then concatMap f :: [a] -> [b] grows polynomially, too. < 1418013389 694580 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should understand the thing about groupoids having non-integer cardinality. < 1418013504 236528 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems boring enough. < 1418013522 561020 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about the church numeral c2 :: (a -> a) -> a -> a; c2 f x = f (f x)? < 1418013569 603632 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :f could be the unary natural number squaring operator unat -> unat, where unat is [()]. < 1418013592 944530 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then c2 f takes the fourth power. < 1418013600 79563 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If f takes the 10th power, then c2 f takes the 100th power. < 1418013621 419479 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There doesn't seem to be anything illegal going on here. < 1418013670 100343 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose we might be able to define "grows at most polynomially" without actually defining what length is. < 1418013704 191500 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have an expression involving c2, then it doesn't seem to be possible to make the expression grow faster than polynomially. < 1418013736 393179 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about ap :: (a -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c; ap x y z = x z (y z)? Does that "grow at most polynomially"? < 1418013803 327436 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably, I guess. It's not obvious to me how to define a function in STLC that doesn't "grow at most polynomially". < 1418013812 806144 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that, in fact, possible? < 1418013875 190786 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :\_ -> repeat 1 < 1418013886 702277 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, "repeat" in Haskell < 1418013898 154910 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, STLC < 1418013900 837243 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so? < 1418013928 522044 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I note that the number c2 c2 c2 c2 c2 is large. But c2 has a different type each time. < 1418014083 839849 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So problems only seem to come in when you allow polymorphism or dependent typing. < 1418014102 552506 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I want to know what the length of Type is. < 1418014232 782062 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lessee. A list of "a"s can be thought of as a "forall b, (a -> b -> b) -> b -> b". Presumably the length of a "forall b, (a -> b -> b) -> b -> b" should be (at most a polynomial in) the sum of the lengths of the elements. < 1418014330 789732 :singingboyo!~g8p8@deas.ugrad.cs.ubc.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1418014341 584149 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think that's inconsistent. Since c2 :: (a -> a) -> a -> a is a list, it must have constant length, like 2 or something. < 1418014384 93328 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then the function \f g -> f g, taking two Church numerals and returning their exponentiation, is illegal, isn't it? We want \f g -> f g to be a legal function. < 1418014468 376422 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. < 1418014681 630286 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forbid church numerals, or forbid applying them < 1418014718 118946 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1418014922 286048 :tswett_!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett JOIN :#esoteric < 1418014951 125389 :tswett_!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what you can't do is apply two Church numerals of the same type together. That's exponential. < 1418015025 298623 :tswett_!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :So every STLC function seems to be allowable. No STLC function takes two Church numerals of the same type and applies them together. < 1418015083 454388 :tswett_!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are STLC functions which add or multiply Church numerals of the same type. < 1418015135 964293 :tswett!~tswett@c-107-5-152-253.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1418015137 59559 :tswett_!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett NICK :tswett < 1418015514 875894 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca QUIT :Quit: quit < 1418015629 994902 :supay!sid47179@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kvgevhpjjywhvtlq QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1418015736 247842 :supay!sid47179@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-spftvzttfazixbrj JOIN :#esoteric < 1418015809 281939 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I think we get a problem if we permit the dependently typed Church numerals. If c and d are dependently typed Church numerals, then \S -> c (S -> S) (d S) is their exponentiation. < 1418015858 364581 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simply typed Church numerals, good. Dependently typed Church numerals, bad. < 1418015985 952010 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are dependently typed Church numerals supposed to mean? < 1418016090 126294 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi < 1418016293 920582 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lizxhafucifjbeao QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1418016392 500100 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett JOIN :#esoteric < 1418016452 223161 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :A dependently typed Church numeral is a function of type (a : Type) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a. < 1418016568 189286 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1418016680 678486 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418016718 443631 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1418016756 253156 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418016838 765177 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a function, mapping somthing of type a to a function, which maps functions from a to a to functions from a to a? < 1418016861 961995 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1418016901 422408 :atslash!~atslash@192.241.160.114 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418016958 275353 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :a (*(*f(a))(a(*)(a)))(a) < 1418016985 725435 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, its first argument is a type. < 1418017001 537627 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1418017029 921525 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it maps a type a to a function mapping functions from a to a to functions from a to a? < 1418017047 109396 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1418017062 757130 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is seriously demented < 1418017112 156477 :MDude!~fyrc@67.235.2.71 NICK :MDream < 1418017249 312520 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i've heard of power sets, but this is like, a meta-powerset < 1418017295 465278 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a reasonable way to do polymorphism. < 1418017308 942700 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't even need dependent types for that sort of thing, just something like System F. < 1418017374 917238 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :gyaaa... maybe if 'reasonable' is defined as 'probably will confuse more people than pointers do' < 1418017557 419932 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can take a type like that even in Haskell by using Typeable and a few other stuff, I think? < 1418017562 284926 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how weird and confusing and unreasonable to model something parameterised over types as having a type as a parameter < 1418017575 137850 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were type theorists thinking < 1418017644 684500 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :having a type as a parameter isn't confusing, returning a member of the powerpowerset of the typeis < 1418017681 984119 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> a) isn't the power set of a, if that's what you're getting at? < 1418017683 544320 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what powerset? < 1418017698 325822 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the powerset of A is A -> Bool. < 1418017725 27792 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the space of functions from a to a is the powerset < 1418017731 744452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're wrong. < 1418017740 320419 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what is it called? < 1418017745 22208 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :powerset is 2^A i.e. A -> 2 i.e. A -> Bool < 1418017755 249910 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :endomorphism of the type A, I guess? < 1418017762 458515 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever you're returning some thing of the C type < 1418017769 80418 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :church numerals represent the natural n as functions taking a function f to f^n. < 1418017777 258504 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so f has to be of type A -> A for some a. < 1418017786 37778 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's (A -> A) -> (A -> A) and it works generically no matter what A is. < 1418017790 185055 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :A (A (*)(A))(*)(A(*)(A)) < 1418017790 846149 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's (A : Type) -> (A -> A) -> (A -> A). < 1418017805 314338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, C has bad function pointer syntax, what's your point? < 1418017820 492747 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :people don't do functional programming in C. and anyway church numerals are a theoretical construct, nobody actually programs with them. < 1418017836 368870 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how is that a "reasonable way to do polymorphism"? < 1418017851 686468 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it is < 1418017892 139225 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was referring to passing types as parameters. < 1418017905 333502 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constructively (A -> Bool) and the power set are different. :-) < 1418017913 984669 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine, A -> Prop < 1418017926 945876 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: (church numerals *are* a perfectly reasonable way to represent the naturals in the lambda calculus, though) < 1418017938 270421 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :though they kind of suck type theoretically because you need parametricity to prove anything about them < 1418017967 317135 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah... < 1418017985 827035 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, does Prop behave like the Sierpinski space? < 1418018018 208353 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The polynomial-time type system should probably be designed over terms, instead of unnatural things like numbers and lists < 1418018064 273506 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are terms more natural than numbers? < 1418018077 987246 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sierpiński, apparently. < 1418018083 339160 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because one is a primitive notion in type theory and the other is something you build up < 1418018090 250414 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the size of a term in STLC has a natural definition (after full normalization) < 1418018095 314109 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1418018106 866751 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's the limitation in your abstraction thn < 1418018111 446190 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1418018114 192495 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1418018115 448322 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418018161 962766 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're taking the natural parts of your model as primitive instead of the primitive which real computers actually operate in O(1) on. < 1418018166 505916 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Existing polynomial-time languages need fiddly non-local restrictions though, I don't know if you can have a compositional type theory for lambda calculus < 1418018219 719292 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: that's because we're talking about computer science, not computers < 1418018221 396788 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to model real computers you need to insert parameters into your model which are dependent on how real computers operate < 1418018233 397796 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god shut up < 1418018250 295159 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're making even more negative contributions to this discussion than I am with my whining < 1418018254 219058 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only O(1) in real computers is circuit delay < 1418018318 978134 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :real computers can add binary numbers of fixed size in O(1) time. < 1418018347 401419 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :these numbers of fixed size come up often in real problems < 1418018355 771655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only care about finite stuff? great, let's just say everything is O(1) < 1418018359 83270 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have our type system < 1418018361 330043 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a paper on a language complete for P, but it's complicated to determine statically and I think the language was imperative < 1418018462 507328 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the size of the numeric type is fixed. the size of array types is not. you can use pragmatic principles to determine which parameters of your problem are fixed size in actual exapmles < 1418018497 378511 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're talking about irrelevant crap to criticise something you clearly don't understand at all. it's disruptive. please stop. < 1418018632 734728 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome < 1418018634 707358 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1418018707 458653 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not irrelevant to the time complexity of operations of church numbers to consider whether the church numbers are a good way of modeling your system in the first place? < 1418018722 443470 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.65.206 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1418018733 760094 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett JOIN :#esoteric < 1418018759 26506 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you even read the context? I mean I didn't at first but at least I didn't try and argue for half an hour about it < 1418018820 976338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I did, with you, but that was after I read the context < 1418018896 379574 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Client Quit < 1418018904 826006 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beta reductions can be implemented in polynomial time, so they can be considered as units < 1418018928 60381 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the context involves input lengths, but church numbers have a different length than the corresponding binary numbers. < 1418018928 994166 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As long as the intermediate terms grow polynomially) < 1418018942 859836 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :elliott > 1418018943 297630 NAMES :#esoteric < 1418018945 188418 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott KICK #esoteric oren :oren < 1418018947 464659 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott MODE #esoteric -o :elliott > 1418018947 491004 NAMES :#esoteric < 1418018968 451940 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :`emoclew < 1418018970 508796 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​(.ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .>/gro.sgnalose//:ptth< :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW < 1418019126 8751 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hddcokzflfbtupmg QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1418019144 331944 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1418019201 599442 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you define length of a function as the number of instructions in it? < 1418019252 246609 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ellio why are you so angry? < 1418019311 863272 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use binary encoding for church numerals. < 1418019321 806784 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-atdayioykuaihkbp JOIN :#esoteric < 1418019332 486158 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418019375 892387 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess but isn't that not the 'natural' encoding? I mean if a church number is a "function" should it not be encoded as code? < 1418019414 870116 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you never intend to apply it as a function? < 1418019423 170770 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: sleep to do < 1418019426 377538 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1418019432 392950 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :A polynomial-time language would probably need to distinguish between counting numbers and arithmetical numbers < 1418019461 482629 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cardinals and ordinals? < 1418019466 365750 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you use a number to determine the number of steps in the program, it would need to be in unary < 1418019480 221167 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode JOIN :#esoteric < 1418019512 592211 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah i get it now! but you do math with binary numbers of fixed size but these can't be used in loop conditons? < 1418019608 680549 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how do you determine whether a number will end up being a loop condition or not? < 1418019685 609688 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see church numbers are your loops? < 1418019764 415899 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably tswett wants a compositional type theory that allows exactly the programs requiring a polynomial number of reductions on polynomial-sized terms, which is harder < 1418019840 266532 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hcdyjovjvrlqjzxq JOIN :#esoteric < 1418019866 495308 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1418019873 981331 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary numbers are log sized while church numbers (in a natural encoding as code) would be O(N) sized < 1418019883 234722 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418020069 477270 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i wrong elliot? < 1418020222 877733 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... elliot hates me now, just for saying that church numbers are unary. < 1418020270 815414 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're making a fool of yourself < 1418020278 211962 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Church numbers do not seem to be any base I think? < 1418020357 496118 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the church number n is a function. the code for that function would apply that function n times. unless the code contains a loop, the code would be O(N) in te size of the code to appl the srgument once. < 1418020399 76369 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such a function ca be made up from other function (other Church numbers) too though < 1418020411 698337 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as applying one to the other, to make exponentiation < 1418020459 238732 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh crap. yeah it really depends on how the 'apply' operation is perforemed < 1418020498 479710 :MoALTz!~no@user-46-113-127-236.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1418020508 582632 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assumed that constructing f(g()) is done by appending the code for f to the code for g < 1418020565 366798 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the code for apply instead involves reparsing the function's code, then it is no longer O(1) < 1418020579 290489 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1418020590 472311 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@172.56.39.228 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418020637 41055 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then of course the church number n could simply be code for a loop that loops n times < 1418020687 689526 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that is one way but it is not the only way; regardless of how it is defined it can be mathematically the same function though < 1418020709 275110 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but in terms of space and time complexity it matters < 1418020711 12210 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@172.56.39.228 QUIT :Client Quit < 1418020737 269013 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the implementation does affect how efficiently it can be executed on a computer, of course. < 1418020944 430994 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if we want to create a type system that only allows polynomial space and time,then the fact that binary numbers are log(n) space allows different things < 1418020972 702950 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would a type system to only allow polynomial space and time? < 1418020994 448190 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno but that is apparently what they were talking about earlier < 1418021066 990966 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :a type system could certainly forbid exponential strcutures like trees to be built < 1418021126 960604 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you essentially forbid operations on your types, strategically... < 1418021218 999044 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it were up to elliot i think all numbers would be bignums < 1418021284 955604 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's considerate that you misspell my name when saying crap so that it doesn't ping me but unfortunately I'm reading all of this anyway < 1418021318 546002 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why do you hate me so much < 1418021351 805476 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b/c I have a crush on you (I don't hate you) < 1418021370 902912 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dislike trying to model real sytems soyou can predict real performance? < 1418021418 680059 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:16:57 So I'm trying to devise a type theory where, if a function is definable in the type theory, then the function's output length grows at most polynomially in its input length. < 1418021419 1109 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would love a compiler that tells me how long the program will take to run... < 1418021428 564011 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing you have said is relevant to what the discussion is actually about < 1418021441 4677 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :input length defined in what symbols? < 1418021457 768453 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary numbers? instructions? < 1418021459 326091 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and saying that people should be "using" fixed-size binary integers instead of church numerals doesn't even make any sense given that the reason church numerals come up was to figure out what restrictions they'd end up having < 1418021488 462450 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can define church numerals in the lambda calculus, but they allow doing too much unrestricted. it was an attempt to explore how the system would differ from more conventional type theories. I don't know why I'm explainign this to you. < 1418021492 977588 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*explaining < 1418021546 642472 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you allow higher order functions you automatically allow church numbers? < 1418021570 217182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:17:05 Which raises a question. < 1418021570 379203 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:17:29 The type theory should allow higher-order functions, whose inputs are other functions. But what's the length of a function? < 1418021604 244056 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i read that. the question still doe not have a real answer < 1418021608 132034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:01:40 Well, what you can't do is apply two Church numerals of the same type together. That's exponential. < 1418021611 139350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:02:55 So every STLC function seems to be allowable. No STLC function takes two Church numerals of the same type and applies them together. < 1418021614 144297 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:03:53 But there are STLC functions which add or multiply Church numerals of the same type. < 1418021617 152655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:15:59 Then I think we get a problem if we permit the dependently typed Church numerals. If c and d are dependently typed Church numerals, then \S -> c (S -> S) (d S) is their exponentiation. < 1418021621 153797 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:16:48 Simply typed Church numerals, good. Dependently typed Church numerals, bad. < 1418021624 136902 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just gonna paste everything said that answers the questions you're raising < 1418021672 379254 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I propose a truce: both of us stop talking < 1418021681 519396 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does the length of a functions have a legitimate answer? < 1418021729 645107 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I propose a different kind of truce which means, you can both ignore each other temporarily if you do not want to answer each other's questions. < 1418021734 6307 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:40:19 I suppose we might be able to define "grows at most polynomially" without actually defining what length is. < 1418021911 839095 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the inputs allowed to be pointers? < 1418021964 970951 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointers? in type theory? < 1418022017 257753 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. so a data structure containing duplicates doesn't include the duplicates in its length < 1418022053 885161 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :call them references. whatever < 1418022112 140852 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :a type system allowing indirection is very different from one where everything is hieracrchical < 1418022175 358972 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. consider the lisp lists cons(cons(a,a),cons(a,a)) vs. cons(a,a). < 1418022203 335670 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on encoding, the ratio of size is different between those two structures < 1418022391 456247 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :python for instance uses immutable strings, so every string is basically stored only once. < 1418022421 350378 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :while C++ copies everything every time < 1418022550 920510 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess elliott thinks this is irrelavnt because it is not math < 1418022594 320080 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1418022676 428546 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah i'll stop injecting any kind of reality. < 1418022730 973554 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mathematical model of such thing could still be defined though, but such a model won't be useful if you do not define it at first. < 1418022750 766122 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1418022785 931169 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd think #esoteric would be the last place to get "um, but REAL COMPUTERS use BINARY NUMBERS" jokers re: a discussion of type theory, but no... < 1418022813 922737 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh heh < 1418022855 736747 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :a language can be esoteric by being too real. consider subleq < 1418022886 207895 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :too... real... < 1418022887 863457 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or for that matter boolfuck < 1418022922 59083 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe real isn't the right word < 1418022926 682284 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"low-level" < 1418022950 976152 :ZombieAlive!~N3cr0naV@unaffiliated/zombiealive QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418023023 575040 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :subleq has no abstractions is my point. you have to build any abstractions up from scratch < 1418023630 143805 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1418025220 564817 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.65.206 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418025296 275498 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid JOIN :#esoteric < 1418025302 870650 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1418025315 529673 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.65.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, cluid. < 1418025322 213964 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning < 1418025623 901737 :MoALTz!~no@user-46-113-127-236.play-internet.pl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1418025945 240143 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode NICK :pokeball|dts < 1418025982 595765 :pokeball|dts!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode NICK :dts|pokeball < 1418028236 541791 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woo < 1418028455 941829 :dts|pokeball!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode NICK :dts|supersaiyan < 1418028842 209761 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1418028896 79478 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hcdyjovjvrlqjzxq QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1418029729 659234 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1418030511 851732 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-atdayioykuaihkbp QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1418031461 755087 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.65.206 QUIT :Quit: bbl < 1418033366 942161 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1418034493 892881 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG < 1418034495 568657 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BRAINFUCK < 1418034567 869902 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1418034577 718865 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should, like, feature that language or something < 1418034578 486867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1418034600 518082 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck has been featured for over a year because it's just that good < 1418034605 344526 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike all the previous featured languages which only lasted months. < 1418034765 328319 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: we can make a poll, which was your first esoteric programming language? (Brainfuck here) < 1418034781 544671 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1418034828 135156 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :<- Befunge. < 1418034879 628466 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also I completely forgot about featuring something else for a chance.) < 1418034934 330685 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i right in thinking that swapping two values in place is impossible in barinfuck? < 1418034953 350778 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*brainfuck < 1418035073 864072 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren, yes you need a third cell < 1418035171 492212 :ZombieAlive!~N3cr0naV@unaffiliated/zombiealive JOIN :#esoteric < 1418035376 454218 :Vuk!~010101001@HSI-KBW-134-3-101-131.hsi14.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1418035416 643237 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A movement of Mahler's 1st symphony played by 12 networked ZX Spectrums (FF to around 7m for the music) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiFEicJ6grM < 1418035420 285394 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though if you stretch the problem statement enough it may be possible: In Boolfuck, executing [>[[+<+x]x will end up with two neighbouring cells swapped the first time any of the 'x' is reached. < 1418035564 471978 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ZX spectrum had networking? < 1418035602 750489 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :serial ports? < 1418035624 489967 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It had a rather custom "network" of sorts, too. < 1418035629 277003 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently there was somehting called "zx net" but wikipedia has no details < 1418035630 761616 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Interface_1 < 1418035632 757044 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Interface_1 < 1418035642 821208 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Fancy, isn't it? < 1418035648 192554 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1418035720 19177 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the old ethernet networks < 1418035798 859300 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see my "serial ports" guess wasn't far off the mark though :) < 1418035799 317792 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a modern Ethernet interface for it, the "Spectranet": http://spectrum.alioth.net/doc/index.php/Main_Page < 1418035957 705943 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds really bad < 1418035966 63942 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this attempt at "music" sucks < 1418036080 992237 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a kid with a brand new trumpet < 1418036127 224565 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: surely it can't be worse than the floppy disk drive music (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEzXjJN1RH0 ) < 1418036133 614090 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds better at 8:30 tho < 1418036184 225851 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1418036186 870011 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats cool! < 1418036204 469286 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy crap how did he do taht? < 1418036225 241239 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the floppy drives tuned? < 1418036230 39969 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBpdvYkGtzs This guy makes the 1 bit speaker of the spectrum do great things < 1418036256 799489 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: step motors < 1418036259 44632 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a lot of {floppy disk,printer,3D printer,...} music around. < 1418036310 81264 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :3d printer ... of course there would be. step motors again... < 1418036376 694681 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because step motors can be run at any speed? < 1418036386 979893 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :within limits, yes. < 1418036423 534517 :Vuk!~010101001@HSI-KBW-134-3-101-131.hsi14.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1418036442 514924 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :do floppy drives have an interface providing such fine-grained control? < 1418036468 369005 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is he bypasing the normal interface < 1418036521 958589 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he hacked it < 1418036676 172343 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, but you can issue commands to the FDC to switch tracks, and you can do that at any frequency you desire as long as FDC + Floppy drive can keep up. < 1418036703 678476 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1418036787 830235 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1418036788 958261 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi NICK :J_Arcane < 1418036863 652534 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :these floppy drives have great bass < 1418037555 933353 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418037721 77492 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1418037761 246111 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages- < 1418037761 610458 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet asked 9h 4m 20s ago: It hasn't been proven that SAT cannot be linear time (unless you forbid linear space) < 1418037778 736927 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Jafet Ah. < 1418037779 150966 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1418037982 402683 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seemed more like a statement than a question. < 1418038138 304198 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm indeed. < 1418038159 383164 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also i remembered it when seeing it. < 1418038357 993363 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what a rebel hth < 1418038496 244898 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is p. much Jafet: http://i.imgur.com/1NRLSoP.jpg < 1418038616 173379 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :no smoke < 1418038750 168968 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's not obvious from the picture that he's actually inside the library < 1418038900 205847 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/firstworldanarchists/top/?sort=top&t=all is great < 1418039485 319122 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid slow web < 1418039587 879624 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sticky web? (Sticky webs slow you down, with the potential of trapping you.) < 1418039679 678584 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek < 1418039804 500077 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the /topic may be a little bit misleading, and int-e is the eviler twin. < 1418039824 504841 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :no claim was made regarding int-e's evilness < 1418039839 716416 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't you expect a correlation among twins, if anything? < 1418039868 825876 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that's from that game, isn't it < 1418039871 524347 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's it called < 1418039916 35404 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: the wisdom/ has clearly established that ørjan is the good twin. int-e is the redundant one. < 1418039941 208675 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's so redundant we're not even triplets. < 1418039949 213716 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? oerjan < 1418039951 66603 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. < 1418039954 42113 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ørjan < 1418039955 761164 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers. < 1418039960 717294 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? int-e < 1418039962 283775 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1418039972 469495 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn int-e vet jag... < 1418039975 612961 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'int-e': int-e vet jag... < 1418040076 911869 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a subtle horrible Norwegian pun? < 1418040095 981594 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint: I don't know anything about nordic languages. (this seems to be swedish?) < 1418040112 547251 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least google found https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jag_vet_inte ) < 1418040116 138190 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? shachaf < 1418040118 211589 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. < 1418040124 958483 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems that int-e is my twin < 1418040178 449830 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: basically "i dunno" in swedish... < 1418040184 610653 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :/topic Baware of the evil triplets oerjan, shachaf and int-e | Beware of ricocheting jokes | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ < 1418040193 115125 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1418040250 899207 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :baware is a license for software released by sheep < 1418040260 902392 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I have been made aware of that meaning of "inte" (on a non-IRC server that didn't like the dash) < 1418040341 786637 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know that "sheep" means "Schaf" in german? < 1418040357 333512 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :curses < 1418040363 999176 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :my /hilight is vulnerable < 1418040367 92539 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't sau so < 1418040415 325028 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Obviously I can't always avoid reading your nick that way. < 1418040447 182471 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Sorry, those Säue won't fly. The pronunciation is all wrong. < 1418040471 992703 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ikk-e" would be a good nick. < 1418040525 335862 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i was going for slight misspelling, also that's norwegian not german < 1418040586 281458 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not germane either hth < 1418040620 429282 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1418040644 422227 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :y'où dont te sais. < 1418040672 936896 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: i am looking forward to poutine hth < 1418040677 29202 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh a false friend, funny it should be another kind of animal. < 1418040715 520451 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beware of int-e's false friend oerjan < 1418040761 637593 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I hope you can appreciate the flying pigs reference anyway. < 1418040802 978764 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there's also the word "su" which means the same as the german but only farmers and crossworders know that one... < 1418040831 897322 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: also unix users hth < 1418040834 229912 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh i missed that < 1418040849 172121 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: they don't know that word, only another one that is spelled the same way hth < 1418040868 477123 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i the only one who uses su instead of sudo? < 1418040884 459428 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: same here < 1418040995 778062 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I can't explain why, except I'd rather have a root shell than a shell which might-or-might-not rememb that I just used my sudo password.) < 1418041008 885512 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :*remember < 1418041187 927089 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.codes/ < 1418041217 799589 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm waiting for your report. < 1418041236 691710 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: CONDENSED CHICKEN < 1418041378 371879 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...someone got a grant for writing an esolang blog? < 1418041604 840296 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(someone aka User:Rottytooth from the wiki) < 1418041619 65077 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that guy is Rottytooth ? < 1418041629 725598 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1418041645 993661 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :il msg you oerjan < 1418041651 46501 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you like < 1418041652 268905 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOO < 1418041661 743545 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1418041731 539648 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just looked up Light Pattern on the wiki < 1418041767 259354 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :could also have looked up his real name, it's there on his user page < 1418042041 929722 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1418042109 280227 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION prefers public chatting unless it's something actually secret.
< 1418042128 912012 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is kind of neat. http://lightpattern.info/Basics/Machine/ < 1418042279 612756 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm a bit disappointed by its use of shutter speed and aperture rather than actualy image features (beyond dominant channel in average color). < 1418042424 687008 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, really ... the corpse is actually dead and identified as Lady Selnikov? < 1418042436 891660 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1418042472 333867 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it should have 'dog' and < 1418042473 659027 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it'll explode. There must be *some* twist!!!1 < 1418042480 854862 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1418042491 278401 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :'bike' as instructions < 1418042526 106475 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIGHT. https://xkcd.com/1425/ < 1418042527 594321 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it should perform image recognition to decide the outcome < 1418042585 444236 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey it might be implable in 10 years, google have make progress < 1418042617 365961 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's implable, but you need actual imps < 1418042698 131044 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol yeah, to paint the pictures. don't run out of pink! < 1418042702 684907 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1418042775 720798 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "implorable" has a shorter editing distance to "imblable" than "implementable", hth < 1418042826 636362 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :("imps" needs no comment, I believe.) < 1418042841 574885 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i thot it would be biguated by context < 1418042936 985921 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suck at context. As you can see I can't even distinguish between "oren" and "oerjan". < 1418042949 757129 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1418042967 268656 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how cant you? it's like apples and oerjans < 1418042988 594789 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :orly? < 1418043065 960465 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1418043149 808918 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1418043151 97600 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi NICK :J_Arcane < 1418043157 648027 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1418043291 889189 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I *can* distinguish between oerjan and oerjan, but I tend to mix up the nicknames. :-> < 1418043368 509166 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks sternly at int-e
< 1418043415 836800 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1418043690 790915 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418043716 541988 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm the one from Canada hth < 1418043779 61391 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been in canada once hth < 1418043784 360881 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(toronto, even) < 1418043817 960185 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although mostly in waterloo < 1418043913 161145 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been over Canada, in a plane, if that counts. < 1418043936 897167 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming the in-flight route map was telling the truth, anyway. < 1418044067 297898 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they all lie because in reality the earth is flat hth < 1418044104 265312 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1418044195 272401 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't convince Google Maps to draw a line that wouldn't be curved with the "measure distance" option. < 1418044212 163197 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since they're perpetuating the lie. < 1418044224 660312 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1418044238 494865 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :time zones are the most elaborate part of the joke < 1418044250 67139 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :they actually had to invent time travel to make that work < 1418044267 348409 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on some eyeballing, depending on how it's flat, the direct line between Portland and Amsterdam might still cross Canada. < 1418044311 704573 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1418044472 596498 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1418044489 670647 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett JOIN :#esoteric < 1418044612 693323 :oren_!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1418044668 7553 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Client Quit < 1418044782 968723 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1418044898 945137 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1418044915 802812 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Client Quit < 1418045065 862746 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1418045124 142710 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1418045125 790958 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1418045845 708445 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.65.206 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418046197 666102 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1418046514 629220 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1418046668 266943 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1418047166 908369 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1418047510 692246 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vmshrnlhiipbxftk JOIN :#esoteric < 1418048400 671845 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.65.206 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1418048498 255186 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-34-154.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1418048536 334748 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-34-154.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1418048536 478625 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1418048739 643127 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell tswett I think a fundamental problem here is that there _is_ no measure on polynomial functions that fill allow the length of f(x) to be polynomial in the measure of f and the length of x. Because f includes the exponent which you need to apply to the length of x. < 1418048740 111552 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1418048833 8801 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell tswett And |x|^|f| just isn't going to be polynomial in |x|. < 1418048833 403118 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1418049021 533666 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell tswett Or at the very least, it seems impossible for f's with different exponent to have all the same type. < 1418049021 959186 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1418049428 150489 :MDream!~fyrc@67.235.2.71 NICK :MDude < 1418049810 900427 :S1!~S1@p4FF93904.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1418050202 859382 :atslash!~atslash@192.241.160.114 QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1418050725 637066 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41383&oldid=41366 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+0) 10Ahem < 1418050728 277105 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1418050948 231067 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1418051344 676931 :dianne!~diannes@unaffiliated/dianne QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1418052926 565777 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow the admins responded to my error report and got the patch in before breakfast! you never hear about the admins who do their jobs well... < 1418052930 128898 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do bitwise operations have any interesting algebraic properties/identities in combination with usual operations? For instance, could I reason about (x + y) xor z algebraically anyhow? < 1418052945 289725 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Seems on-topic enough for this channel) < 1418052975 753582 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm... there is that weird sqrt trick i heard about < 1418053015 478432 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean http://h14s.p5r.org/2012/09/0x5f3759df.html ? < 1418053020 624166 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that < 1418053052 419804 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there could be similar tricks involving integers < 1418053091 104021 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking more in terms of if I could solve equations involving bitwise operations by hand algebraically < 1418053100 189912 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that arx is a cryptographic primitive, probably not < 1418053109 300855 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks up arx
< 1418053117 842383 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1418053127 838369 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1418053129 51763 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well darn < 1418053153 429849 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages-lewd < 1418053153 573172 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan said 4h 16m 14s ago: Ah. < 1418053171 81143 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very lewd < 1418053178 538200 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the problem is that normal operations mix the bits while bitwise ones keep them separate < 1418053197 56698 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so reasoning is very hard < 1418053286 310604 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you omit rotations, you can propagate from the lowest bit < 1418053315 321123 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1418053350 842338 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case I have a,b,r and want to find k such that (a - k) bxor (b - k) = r < 1418053391 434986 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that k is smallish, so it's easy enough to bruteforce, but.. it'd be neat if there's a way to reason about the solution < 1418053457 554887 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :a + b = ((a & b)<<1) + (a ^ b) < 1418053483 954893 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's one identity i know < 1418053532 2130 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately + appears on both sides < 1418053663 394937 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vmshrnlhiipbxftk PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi o/ < 1418053686 673614 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1418053728 27416 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you apply the above a number of times equal to the maximum bits in k, then it may reduce < 1418053830 4949 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1418053874 763351 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1418054358 850094 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: well you can still propagate from the lowest bit < 1418054415 900250 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :first, subtracting something common from the lowest bit doesn't change the xor, so you need a xor b = r (mod 2) < 1418054437 390894 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418054493 951797 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the lowest bit of the xor < 1418054528 649684 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes sense < 1418054535 101374 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes it "a bit" easier < 1418054542 354798 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just one :P < 1418054549 645413 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed < 1418054572 740290 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also the higher bits of k don't change whether the lower ones work < 1418054654 935638 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, addition only propagates information up the bits < 1418054682 190856 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, in fact you need to choose the lowest bit of k such that it makes ((a-k0)>>1) xor ((b-k0)>>1) == (r>>1) (mod 2) < 1418054713 287396 :skarn!skarn@unaffiliated/skarn JOIN :#esoteric < 1418054744 824378 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like at each step you can either reduce, keep or increase the number of possibilities alas < 1418054804 622226 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps looking at the highest instead... < 1418054805 972812 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we only need one k that works right? not every k? < 1418054848 239357 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure but we cannot throw any away until we know they're not the only ones that work for the next bits... < 1418054948 726815 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the highest bit of k can never matter, i think < 1418055081 743001 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what matters is the carries/borrowings of the a-k and b-k subtractions < 1418055114 30996 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :at each bit, it is determined whether those must be equal or different < 1418055138 652781 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are equal to (a&(-k))<<1 < 1418055153 957096 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1418055165 92019 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the carries < 1418055202 137651 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :they happen only when the bits of a and -k are both 1 < 1418055211 526834 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no < 1418055234 146731 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right there are multiple carry rounds < 1418055334 686187 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's easier to replace k with -k overall here... < 1418055351 689837 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :addition is easier to think about than subtraction < 1418055378 596011 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well -k = ~k+1 < 1418055385 889330 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not what i mean < 1418055403 276498 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean do that afterward < 1418055421 494609 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait hm < 1418055500 733973 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the second bit, (a+b)>>1 = (a&b)+((a^b)>>1) < 1418055519 53433 :SopaXorzTaker!~ItsLuke@ipv6.lukej.ovh QUIT :Changing host < 1418055519 197144 :SopaXorzTaker!~ItsLuke@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1418055522 842531 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, thinking in terms of additions is probably easier < 1418055541 886595 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: i have possibly changed my mind < 1418055550 344354 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1418055584 587676 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :when k is small, the high bits of -k are all 1 < 1418055585 885276 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because to know whether a-k gives a borrowing, you need to know the ordering of a and k < 1418055618 101648 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no need to worry about borrows in my case < 1418055638 311190 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: with addition it's carries instead, of course < 1418055648 191248 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that means you need the ordering of a and -k < 1418055654 685396 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :does k have only one bit nonzero or something? < 1418055664 565917 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, no < 1418055690 425839 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: the borrowings tell everything about which k work < 1418055699 554936 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1418055704 676232 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, and a xor b xor r < 1418055764 53544 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, if a bit of a xor b xor r is 0, you want the borrowings from that bit to be identical for a-k and b-k < 1418055772 156601 :drdanmaku!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ioikkyrxupolcmxc JOIN :#esoteric < 1418055788 253403 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :while if it's 1, you want it to be different < 1418055828 110377 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so could you process it by shifting everything right < 1418055830 60724 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh this is of course because if x is the borrowing bits for a-k, then a-k = x xor x xor k < 1418055842 218460 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1418055849 512664 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*x xor a xor k < 1418055886 303640 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting < 1418055904 937799 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if y are the borrowing bits for b-k, then (a-k) xor (b-k) == x xor y xor a xor b < 1418055944 214562 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want to have x xor y == a xor b xor r < 1418056082 583744 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and say the 5th borrowing bit of a-k is determined by how a & 31 compares to k & 31, i think < 1418056162 802156 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want the order of a & 31, b & 31 and k & 31 to be one that gives the right bit < 1418056185 338901 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the right xor of the borrowing bits < 1418056227 632748 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this gives you a set of ranges that the bits of k need to be within < 1418056247 498442 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :More generally, since you can write addition as a big linear combination in GF(2) you can solve any problem involving addition and and and xor using linear algebra < 1418056263 347057 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is integer programming isn;t it? < 1418056274 758626 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not < 1418056350 984363 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it is possible that when you start intersecting those ranges, they split into several < 1418056441 811136 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it could be contradictory altogether, but i assume that's not your usecase since you say there will be a small solution < 1418056508 754987 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah brain < 1418056526 199086 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also noise) < 1418056531 926144 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I suppose rather that I want to know whether there's a "reasonably small" solution < 1418056538 143823 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1418056542 99838 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, finding the numerically smallest solution could be a shortest vector problem < 1418056552 579174 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the kth bit is weighted by 2^k) < 1418056587 202260 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1418056608 928706 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :would it not be faster to iterate over the integers? (given that for "reasonably small" k we operate in O(1)) < 1418056613 675262 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not sure whether Jafet is making sense or not, i'm dubious that this is really linear algebra. < 1418056627 885708 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: sadly, probably :P < 1418056631 282203 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: sure is. I mostly thought it was an interesting problem to ponder < 1418056636 184050 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's linear algebra over GF(2) < 1418056642 46541 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case "reasonably small" means, say, <50 :P < 1418056663 282408 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i thought it meant less than 2^32 < 1418056665 718250 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: i am not convinced addition of binary digits is a linear operation over GF(2). < 1418056675 702542 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*of binary numbers < 1418056692 475474 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need multiplication to get the carries < 1418056698 283069 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or xor? < 1418056703 544682 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and and. < 1418056720 113030 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :xor you have, that's the addition in GF(2) < 1418056722 698836 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you end up with nested multiplications < 1418056753 435448 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea is that I have two messages encrypted with a stream cipher using the same key, and taking the xor of those messages reveals a 32-bit field that looks suspiciously like it'd hold the message length < 1418056757 184534 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but and you only have with constants, as long as you don't use the entire _ring_ GF(2) < 1418056774 531930 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :(offset by some constant k) < 1418056776 802437 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which means you're beyond linear) < 1418056795 765691 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see... back to linear algebra II. < 1418056977 406547 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: there would always be a chance of ambiguity here, because not all bits of k always matter < 1418057046 446999 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i guess all information is good... < 1418057100 800444 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: Dance < 1418057166 232449 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Dine < 1418057231 405533 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the statement that A==B is the same as A^B == -1 < 1418057249 655185 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait zero < 1418057274 107134 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yah. A==B => A^B == 0 < 1418058176 394911 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1418058264 314829 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, you can write addition as a polynomial in GF(2) but its size seems to be exponential < 1418058772 716684 :skarn!skarn@unaffiliated/skarn QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418059165 492339 :SopaXorzTaker!~ItsLuke@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker PRIVMSG #esoteric :I propose an extension to Brainfuck! < 1418059178 469022 :SopaXorzTaker!~ItsLuke@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if this hasn't been done alreadly) < 1418059201 896325 :SopaXorzTaker!~ItsLuke@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adding direct program tape manipulation < 1418059247 271119 :SopaXorzTaker!~ItsLuke@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker PRIVMSG #esoteric :one operator for exchanging current memory cell and program at the current pointer < 1418059566 176935 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember its name, but something very much like that has surely been done. < 1418059588 474916 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.65.206 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418059620 241042 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's so many brainfuck derivatives, it's hard to find any single one. < 1418059691 585450 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Braintwist is not exactly that, but similar. < 1418059725 4515 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The instruction it adds swaps the entire program and data tapes.) < 1418059810 569153 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If MediaWiki could take unions of categories, you could take the union of Category:Brainfuck_derivatives and Category:Self-modifying. I think I did that at least once manually. < 1418060145 322168 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There are also at least four things that put the program in the data tape.) < 1418060149 964565 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-154.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant really change individual tokens of a program. as soon as you change one of [ ] you're left with nonsense < 1418060283 391390 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't really seem to be much of a problem, except slightly complicating the implementation (either rescan every time, or keep track of whether the region inside has been modified). You can just make it undefined to end up actually executing a [ or a ] that doesn't have a match. < 1418060639 111971 :dts|supersaiyan!~DTSCode@unaffiliated/dtscode NICK :dts|pokeball < 1418060694 521733 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1418060788 408495 :skarn!skarn@unaffiliated/skarn JOIN :#esoteric < 1418060804 512711 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418061056 300653 :SopaXorzTaker!~ItsLuke@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker PRIVMSG #esoteric :made a BF-like language with not--so-far nested loops and functions < 1418061530 132606 :SopaXorzTaker!~ItsLuke@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker PRIVMSG #esoteric :and btw < 1418061540 248662 :SopaXorzTaker!~ItsLuke@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker PRIVMSG #esoteric :finished my BF interpreter :DD < 1418061969 271023 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 QUIT :Quit: mihow < 1418063043 489269 :S1!~S1@p4FF93904.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: S1 < 1418063097 887620 :Lilin!uid52684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vmshrnlhiipbxftk QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1418064167 385795 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read that at some time they will make a computer program to solve FIDE chess, because "there aren't so many moves which are at all sound", but I expect you will need a mathematical proof of this in order to take advantage of it. < 1418064538 516693 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zo38: http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/hbaker/hakmem/proposed.html#item95 expects about 10**40 positions < 1418064599 784427 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw that HAKMEM < 1418064635 982600 :mihow!~mihow@108.30.58.169 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418064681 174519 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says "in most of them, one side is hopelessly lost", but that means you should determine how many of these it is as well as a mathematical proof that you really are hopelessly lost and doesn't just looks like it, as well as for a computer program intending to solve chess to identify such positions. < 1418064720 823769 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it might be possible. < 1418064739 232608 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, it's just that 10**40 might not be that far off in the future < 1418064820 66556 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: http://www.cube20.org/ is a computation with about 2**32 or 2**33 states, aggressively optimized, and before it appeared I expected it would take like ten or twenty more years of technology before it became possible < 1418064824 26405 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1418064828 239589 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :10**40, not 2**40 < 1418064830 912939 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's impossible < 1418064832 283018 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1418064841 701361 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes more sense < 1418065204 637160 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The source-codes says "They are written in a literate programming style using the CWeb system. You will need cweave to compile the programs." That isn't quite right; ctangle is needed to convert the .w into a .c to pass them to a C compiler, while cweave converts it into a .tex which can be typeset. < 1418065238 883907 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: source codes where? < 1418065266 972883 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In http://www.cube20.org/src/ < 1418065285 507101 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1418065367 667136 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, in this case they are C++ so you will need a C++ compiler; still ctangle is used to convert the .w into the .cpp file to pass to a C++ compiler then.) < 1418065418 739013 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, the makefile will do the correct things, so that's OK. < 1418065629 53773 :MoALTz!~no@user-46-113-127-236.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1418065704 252984 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1418065819 581209 :MoALTz!~no@user-46-113-127-236.play-internet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1418065891 627125 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1418065900 247516 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1418065945 295250 :MoALTz!~no@user-46-113-127-236.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1418066064 745919 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone ask a question about "At what point will humans alone be unable to devise a chess variant too complicated for computers to solve?" I expect never (until there is no human anymore, of course) because a game can be designed it isn't even possible to play this game by anyone in this universe even computer programs. That doesn't necessarily mean it cannot be solved, but suggests that it may be possible that some such games are too complicated t < 1418066152 251115 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :too long < 1418066201 254368 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1418066910 460210 :atslash!~atslash@79.104.5.158 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418067649 432960 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1418067724 534246 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think it's prudent to ask what the intended meaning of "solve" is. < 1418067768 720683 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :If solving a game means to play it better than humans then it's the standard AI question, with unclear answer. < 1418067810 29003 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :If solving means mathematically solving the game, then chess is a good candidate for a game that won't be solved. < 1418067845 345476 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me, solving a game means mathematically solving the game. To play it better than humans isn't quite good enough. < 1418067874 576450 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah but it wasn't your question. < 1418067896 285781 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is a good point though. < 1418067960 657880 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, a lot of good AI for playing chess already exists. However, time odds can be used to allow grandmasters to play against a computer program at a reasonable level of play. < 1418068131 632538 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go has seen impressive advances in the last decade. < 1418068374 62938 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but it's still completely unclear how to beat professional go players; it's not going to be solved by increased computational resources.) < 1418068501 669048 :shikhout!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1418069173 344110 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1418069303 260195 :atslash!~atslash@79.104.5.158 QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1418070412 116753 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1418072156 118568 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1418072899 609703 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1418073553 112348 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to devise a game that can't be solved -- what is interesting is whether a game can be devised so that the best way of "solving" it is for the computer to simulate a human. < 1418073589 280931 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid JOIN :#esoteric < 1418073590 904498 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1418073595 620962 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1418073627 955140 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418073653 77542 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wha'ats up? < 1418073680 825635 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing much < 1418073967 913579 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am bored, any ideas < 1418074012 40513 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could do what I'm doing < 1418074020 362469 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :build a wiimote-controlled robot < 1418074031 448074 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have been attempting to devise a language where all possible programs are polynomial time < 1418074075 82789 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on C. essentially it will be a C header < 1418074078 612590 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: like HQ9+ < 1418074137 286045 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :one idea is that instead of allowing arbitrary loop conditions, you have only the repeat(n){} loop < 1418074275 955880 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like LOOP programs, which give you primitive recursive functions. < 1418074308 263108 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The question here is, what is n?) < 1418074338 100335 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :n is an integer, evaluated only once at the start of the loop < 1418074349 563159 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can write things like m = 1; repeat(n) { m=2*m; }; repeat (m) { ... } you're way beyond polynomial time. < 1418074387 38881 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true. we need to nerf integers too i guess < 1418074479 937184 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The usual approach for this that I know is to have different kinds of variables, those you may use as loop counts, and those that you can't use that way but can do computations with. < 1418074516 511271 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha. the repeat statement needs to take a special type as input < 1418074538 818804 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just limit the data space to 2**32 bytes, and ban all IO, then it can't run for more than 2**(2**32) time. < 1418074602 80528 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is true but not useful because that is longer then the age of the computer. < 1418074622 422315 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~sacook/homepage/ptime.pdf is a restriction of primitive recursion but it's based on that principle; the recusion argument of a primitve recursive function acts as a loop count (that's how translations from primitive recursive functions to loop programs work) < 1418074661 378927 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally i would like to be able to pass a flag, which sets the maximum time complexity < 1418074678 497025 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and programs above it would not compile < 1418074776 274291 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... you start with a loop count variable representing the data length... < 1418074780 563664 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-154.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :go will not be solved, but at least it will be counted. i'm doing 18x18 right now < 1418074809 134277 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-154.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no hope of counting number of chess positions < 1418075051 220820 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1418075131 762960 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1418075440 955060 :S1!~S1@p4FF92010.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1418076686 338797 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp_: By "chess positions" do you mean those reachable from the starting position by a legal sequence of moves? < 1418076727 733174 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Go makes the reachability part easy...) < 1418076831 237627 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-154.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i mean reachable positions < 1418076856 811330 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-154.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, is White Kc3 Ba4 Black Kd1 Rb5 Bd5 reachable? < 1418077068 765572 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.65.206 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1418077109 60865 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice one. < 1418077459 352065 :oren_!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1418077459 495484 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-1-1176000251.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1418077658 78625 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh even better, since the answer is yes. < 1418077818 329170 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1418078491 709918 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-154.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But with white ka3 the asnwer is no:) < 1418078789 447276 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1418078817 743708 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1418079006 744175 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : If MediaWiki could take unions of categories, [...] <-- itym "intersection" hth < 1418079019 742948 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+s < 1418079080 844147 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp_: I wonder whether being a chess player helps or hurts in this problem < 1418079117 801497 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not, but I do know enough of the rules) < 1418079410 711198 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1418079676 667081 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-154.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to know some subtle rules < 1418079677 797347 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com) < 1418079862 341798 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/nasser/--- < 1418079871 771115 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I add this to the wiki? Maybe it is offensive to call it esoteric < 1418079893 947121 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels like a cool language which should be on the wiki, but i am not if its appropriate < 1418079900 340516 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Quit: *bubbles away* < 1418079926 298402 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cluid: is it a brainfuck clone? < 1418079935 784685 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1418079977 25693 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it is implemented in javascript rather than itself :/ < 1418079979 508418 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's at least honorary esoteric < 1418080001 964507 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language it's implemented in usually doesn't matter. < 1418080020 971491 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to wit, reference implementations of mine are in ruby or python...) < 1418080033 439179 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nas.sr/%D9%82%D9%84%D8%A8/ < 1418080075 25732 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://animalnewyork.com/2014/artists-notebook-ramsey-nasser/ < 1418080094 972173 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> The current name قلب means Heart, but is actually a recursive acronym for قلب: لغة برمجة pronounced ‘alb: lughat barmajeh meaning Heart: A Programming Language. Acronyms in Arabic are generally difficult to pull off, and قلب is the first recursive one I have seen < 1418080096 390021 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:33: parse error on input ‘,’ < 1418080131 350713 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...LISP ekil skool siht < 1418080155 38294 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418080335 108522 :MoALTz_!~no@user-46-113-127-236.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1418080357 199436 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill create it < 1418080447 335793 :skarn!skarn@unaffiliated/skarn QUIT :Killed (sinisalo.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)) < 1418080515 774439 :MoALTz!~no@user-46-113-127-236.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1418080661 826311 :nycs!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1418080965 696536 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418081076 339952 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1418081091 583726 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the fungeoid IDE Is usable < 1418081094 254413 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07قلب14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41384 5* 03Cluid Zhasulelm 5* (+968) 10created page < 1418081097 16608 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Eve14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41385&oldid=41374 5* 03Oerjan 5* (-90) 10some proofreading < 1418081108 79468 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :awsome < 1418081146 169805 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gist.github.com/CrazyM4n/d02380667be743be1310 < 1418081149 768274 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's glitchy < 1418081159 194814 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And backspace occasionally doesn't work < 1418081163 782914 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it autosaves < 1418081173 292459 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it works < 1418081217 57137 :oren!~oren@user3-218-58.wireless.utoronto.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :works for me < 1418081253 374100 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also somehow got simplefunge to compile < 1418081256 280770 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that works too < 1418081260 867209 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So everything is working out for me today < 1418081323 967442 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thhere is also http://nas.sr/godjs/ < 1418081352 700370 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure if it counts < 1418081478 705771 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to go reimplement simplefunge in python < 1418081480 916872 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WIsh me luck < 1418081482 2491 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1418081483 411648 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :JS < 1418081486 273545 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yisss < 1418081669 70763 :augur_!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1418081705 213095 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1418081981 187940 :augur!~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1418082102 960612 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1418082113 39464 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey GeekDude < 1418082239 520375 :skarn!skarn@unaffiliated/skarn JOIN :#esoteric < 1418082296 853367 :cluid!~cluid@unaffiliated/cluid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1418082438 781027 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi CrazyM4n < 1418082806 292461 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :have I shown you the latest thing I've been working on? < 1418082812 850206 :CrazyM4n!~CrazyM4n@ip70-162-52-61.ph.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/0V13wX1.png it's a funge editor < 1418083007 574141 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@50-1-63-35.dedicated.static.sonic.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1418083057 109272 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: do you like being edited? < 1418083057 468882 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: he's absolutely hilarious though. the php compiler, from the bible the fact that its totally non-idiomatic examples from me? ;p < 1418083070 26283 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a biblical php compiler? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! < 1418083147 711657 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because http://xkcd.com/224/ was not dark enough