00:02:33 -!- Froox has joined. 00:02:33 -!- Froo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:06:21 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1). 00:07:34 -!- Froo has joined. 00:07:35 -!- Froox has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:14:02 -!- Froox has joined. 00:14:03 -!- Froo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:14:53 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 00:18:36 -!- Froo has joined. 00:21:42 -!- Froox has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:27:01 -!- scounder has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:28:13 I'm trying to refine my documentation 00:28:20 In BF 00:28:38 When you input a char, does it take from the STDIN of the whole runtime? 00:28:40 -!- Decensum|Zzz has changed nick to Decensum. 00:28:44 Or does it just specifically take one char 00:28:57 -!- Frooxius has joined. 00:29:14 Question? 00:29:37 As in, if you were to do ",,", and the first time type ab, and the second time type c 00:29:37 What is the document you are trying to refine 00:29:45 Would you get "ab" or "ac" 00:30:02 (it's my esolang's doc I'm trying to refine) 00:30:08 Oh 00:30:16 Isnt skilled at bf 00:30:54 -!- dts|pokeball has joined. 00:31:17 "ab" 00:32:20 Does it take in newlines? 00:32:26 Ok so Void linux is pretty good 00:32:34 -!- Froo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:33:21 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 00:34:04 depends on version but i assume it does take newlines. 00:34:12 Yeah, but I think you have to pick specifically 10 or... 00:34:19 what oren said. 00:34:41 -!- mihow has joined. 00:34:46 Er, I mean as in if you did ",," and just typed "a" and pressed return 00:35:06 Would the second comma give back an \n or would it ask for more input 00:35:10 That'd be a\n 00:35:28 How convenient 00:37:58 except on windows it might give instead \r\n... 00:38:07 depending on implementation 00:38:38 text files are still not standard.... stupid unix 00:39:04 *stupid windows 00:39:19 when ascii came out it was supposed to be \r\n but unix wanted to save one char 00:39:32 A char saved is a char earned :P 00:39:37 for web data it is also \r\n by standard 00:39:40 Really? 00:39:43 TIL 00:39:52 yes 00:40:00 Part of HTTP I think … 00:40:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newline 00:40:26 (that sounded really sarcastic. that wasn't supposed to be sarcastic) 00:40:47 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:40:57 Melvar: it's standard for network protocols in general 00:41:00 as is big endian 00:41:11 they managed to standardise on the exact things nobody uses 00:41:17 because on line printers, \r moves to the beginning of line, and \n moves down one line 00:41:36 (ok, windows uses \r\n, but not big endian. I doubt there are many big endian \r\n environments in production right now.) 00:41:44 So *that's* why it's called carriage return 00:42:00 yup it comes from carriages on a typewriter 00:42:25 and in TTML i'm using the same convention 00:42:33 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 00:44:06 btw, \f is "form feed" and it means "next page" 00:46:57 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:47:59 -!- scounder has joined. 00:54:38 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 01:05:15 -!- hjulle has joined. 01:09:12 -!- shikhout has joined. 01:12:08 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:19:25 \v is a vertical tab, and good luck having it do anything useful anywhere. 01:19:51 it goes down half a line in TTML: good for writing sub/superscripts 01:20:19 do we have any tab? 01:21:00 not in ttml but you could extend it when we get 3d wed environments like is ghost in the shell 01:21:00 you could consider pages the third axis, since you stack them 01:21:05 trefunge-98 does 01:21:20 so then \f is the third axis 01:22:33 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 01:23:24 -!- idris-bot has joined. 01:26:58 -!- ^v has joined. 01:27:05 -!- ^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:39:04 -!- boily has quit (Quit: BIPEDAL CHICKEN). 01:42:07 the expression ((c%32+15)%23+8)%16 converts an ascii hex character c to its hex value 01:43:14 might be doable in only one mod, add cycle but not sure how 01:43:39 oren: I think it's 10 instead of 8 01:43:55 try it? 01:44:15 ((65%32+15)%23+8)%16 == 8, expected 10 01:44:52 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:45:57 hmmm.... 01:46:27 oren: (c|32)%39-9 would work 01:47:51 right! i knew it must be doable in one mod add cycle (not quite but i'll take it) 01:49:46 in fact if you only want lowercase then you don't need the |32 02:01:49 -!- _AndoDaan has joined. 02:13:44 [wiki] [[Ttml]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41403&oldid=41382 * Orenwatson * (-46) we don't need hyphens when the format doesn't support autowrapping anyway. 02:15:22 oren: why only green, red and blue (and possibly purple or gold/amber)? 02:15:58 because in old days having colors meant printing the page once for each color 02:16:13 ah, backstriking? 02:16:27 move back and overstriking* 02:16:35 hmm 02:16:49 shouldn't that be cyan, magenta and yellow then? 02:17:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: nite). 02:18:22 not exactly. each time youprint a page, the page would be printed in a slightly different place. if you printed the page in both red and blue, you'd get two slightly-off letters, with the overlap in purple 02:19:01 you don't use green, red and blue ink though 02:19:05 you use CMYK 02:19:58 depends on the printer, as i said old printers you had to physically change the ink cartridge manually for each new color (and change the typeball for each alphabet) 02:20:46 if you used color mixing you'd hae registration problems due to the teletype's mechanicla tolerances 02:20:49 ...but it's still subtractive colour, right? 02:21:51 not exactly. each color has its own ink. you don't mix colors at all due the problems of getting the teletype to strike the exact same place twice 02:22:08 (on two different print runs no less) 02:23:23 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 02:26:05 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:27:42 thus it makes sense to only stock inks of the most used colors, especially red and green 02:28:14 (for financial data, y'know) 02:29:25 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 02:30:25 fair enough 02:31:06 this is designed to be retro -- not to the 1980's, the 1960's! 02:32:02 so it has arbitrary limitations 02:59:19 -!- ZombieAlive has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:25:22 So I realized my implementation for something i wrote a long time ago was wrong 03:25:34 I looked back at the incorrect code 03:25:41 http://i.imgur.com/SxFaEhw.png 03:25:51 mfw http://i.imgur.com/CcKQTXg.png 03:27:02 it isn't one indexed? 03:27:49 drop is 0 indexed, dropFromIndex was some hacky function I made that is one indexed for whatever reason 03:28:17 so you are TRWTF? 03:28:51 yes 03:29:01 the sad part is that that ended up breaking everything 03:33:07 ... I just can't stop breaking things today 03:33:47 sometime you have to break the bone before you can set it 03:34:22 I just re-factored some other code a ton just to realize my other implementation worked correctly and this doesn't work because the stack is being popped when I don't want it to be popped 03:34:33 You're right 03:36:08 There we go, heh 03:36:48 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:44:31 -!- dts|pokeball has changed nick to dts. 03:44:55 -!- dts has changed nick to dts|pokeball. 03:52:00 -!- bb010g has joined. 04:03:18 http://snag.gy/wFFiC.jpg 04:03:48 is this worse or better than using comic sans? 04:07:41 this is the densest font i was able to find that supports japanese 04:08:08 so do you have a preference for dense fonts? 04:08:11 http://slbkbs.org/ser.html -- Ctrl-F and type something in Chrome 04:09:37 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:09:56 -!- nys has quit (Quit: /quit quit). 04:10:41 paul2520: yes i want more code on my screen (contrary to the picture i usually have like 5 terminals open) 04:11:04 shachaf: how the heck is it doing that? 04:12:44 makes sense 04:15:25 -!- esowiki has joined. 04:15:28 -!- glogbot has joined. 04:15:29 -!- esowiki has joined. 04:15:30 -!- esowiki has joined. 04:16:44 If only web browsers had a feature where you could look at how web pages do what they do. 04:17:36 <_AndoDaan> ... 04:17:40 just because i can see the code doesn't mean i can understand it, shachaf 04:20:20 there should be a comedy sketch where neo can see the code, but he doesn't know the matrix's programming language 04:20:40 Looks like chrome leaks data somewhere 04:20:41 -!- _AndoDaan_ has joined. 04:20:47 Try scrolling with the scroll bar 04:20:56 it somehow also works in firefox though 04:21:06 Webkit? 04:21:08 <_AndoDaan_> The actual find text input tabby thingie gets hidden too? 04:21:17 -!- shachaf has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 04:21:21 in firefox it doesn't 04:21:30 -!- shachaf has joined. 04:21:32 Nor on chrome, for me 04:21:40 but the text you look for still appears 04:21:59 http://slbkbs.org/sel.html is a version that works only with Firefox. 04:22:00 -!- _AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:22:37 http://i.imgur.com/OGpgqvZ.png in some weird generic Ubuntu Web Browser 04:22:52 (doesn't have a find menu, happens when scrolling) 04:23:33 what the hell that is a serious security hazard 04:24:13 could it target your history/other tabs and send it back? 04:24:23 No, gets the current selection 04:24:29 Press ctrl-a to freeze firefox 04:24:43 Not sure about the chrome one 04:25:12 -!- trn has quit (Quit: quit). 04:25:59 -!- trn has joined. 04:30:46 -!- _AndoDaan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:38:59 -!- password2 has joined. 04:40:37 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 04:49:49 -!- _AndoDaan has joined. 04:54:57 -!- Decensum has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:00:41 -!- password2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:03:09 -!- indiagreen has joined. 05:10:09 `relcome indiagreen 05:10:10 ​indiagreen: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 05:11:45 I'm not sure relcome is valid for anyone except relrod. 05:12:13 -!- CrazyM4n has quit (Quit: "sleep"). 05:14:54 -!- shikhout has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:16:10 GAAAAA burned once again by C's precedence rules!!!! 05:16:30 and people wonder why i don't like ALGOL dialects 05:17:47 -!- password2 has joined. 05:18:08 -!- password2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:20:33 oh, but it's great that you can write x=a*b+c>>d&~e|f,y=x; in place of x=(((a*b+c)>>d)&~e)|f); y=x; 05:21:05 very useful in golfing 05:21:21 that is the opposite of great. bitwise ops should be below math 05:21:54 (asuming you view the parse tree as reaching down) 05:22:43 (I have to say that, when it is useful in golfing, it is normally useless for other jobs.) 05:23:31 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 05:24:05 that is why scrip7 does not even have a parse tree 05:24:36 so there is less to memorize 05:27:04 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:27:11 well also because it is easier for me to write an implementation ifi don't need to build a parse tree 05:29:01 -!- b_jonas has joined. 05:30:17 `slist 05:30:18 slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 05:35:55 [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41404&oldid=41296 * Orenwatson * (+67) uploaded super unstable release 05:37:30 [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41405&oldid=41404 * Orenwatson * (-26) updated example for super unstable version 05:41:46 [wiki] [[Scrip7]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41406&oldid=41405 * Orenwatson * (+0) updated literals 06:02:27 My prescription glasses are a gimmick 06:02:35 They're effectively 3D glasses for the real world 06:08:49 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: ,). 06:26:33 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:27:00 -!- scounder has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:03:50 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:08:46 -!- scounder has joined. 07:26:24 -!- Patashu has joined. 07:40:19 oooh slist is a thing that is happening 07:40:23 Although looking at the list you mayswell just ping me 07:41:36 no, it's the past 07:47:57 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 08:22:29 shachaf: ;) 08:31:47 http://www.introducingcarrot.com/ 08:32:37 lololol! 08:32:55 generic marketing words 08:34:49 https://twitter.com/jaden_coding 08:39:11 I want carrots now. 08:40:06 ha! i don't eat any real vegetables, only fried potatoes and onions 08:41:09 "want C's safety and BF's readablity? then look no further than scrip7!" 08:44:14 actually, scrip7 seems quite readable compared to BF 08:44:19 so it's a middle ground 08:58:47 hollerith notation is now implemented 08:58:59 cause quotes suck 08:59:26 13"Hello, World! 09:00:07 that doesn't look LR(0), oren 09:00:27 how is it not? it reads once from left to right? 09:00:51 there is no backtracking 09:01:15 well, ok. 09:01:18 what are your number literals like? 09:02:28 for integers 1234, for floats 1343.2231, for hex 4%ff = ffffffff. the space at the end of a hex literal is mandatory 09:03:51 Parsing such Hollerith notations would require to know what is previously parsed in order to decide what to do next (actually, I suppose it could be done without but then the parsing table would need to be infinite). 09:04:32 no it just allocates n bytes and then memcpys the next n bytes into the string 09:04:50 it does not detect end of code or anything. 09:05:25 it will copy the next n bytes of memory after the " into the string 09:05:52 Yes I know that 09:06:09 it is effectively one token 09:06:37 It means the parser needs to read the entire number first to know how to do and cannot use an ordinary parsing table or regular expression or anything like that 09:07:35 Actually, I am not entirely sure. Let's see if a LR parsing table can actually do it by itself. 09:08:44 (note that the interpreter i wrote does not have a lexer or a parser or anything, it is just a ream of ad-hoc code, and therefore things like LR(0) don't really even apply) 09:08:59 Despite this, a manual parser/lexer shoudn't be too difficult to parse this. 09:09:54 oren: what I mean is that in 123456789"q you don't know whether the 1 starts a string or number literal until you see the H. 09:09:57 er, the ". 09:10:47 oren: Perhaps it doesn't apply to your implementation (and as you say, it shouldn't!), but still it is meaningful to say whether or not it is LR(0) or whatever, as well as to say token or the byte stream 09:11:59 hmm can you not define-- string_lit ::= integer_lit '"' binary_data 09:12:39 no, the lexer needs to be too complex 09:13:05 and that isn't LR(0). 09:13:10 You are correct that implementation won't work of course. 09:14:38 hmmmm i don't think hollerith strings are LR(0) which essentially means that the "conceptual complexity" is higher than the "real complexity" because real computers are arbitrarily focused on integers... 09:15:37 and have primitives for integers that don't appear in regular expressions or general parsers. 09:20:13 the "real complexity" of parsing a hollerith string involves pointer arithmetic and the expression i=i*10+c-'0' neither of which are primitive to a symbol-based computing environment like a regex 09:26:13 In a combinator parser it might look like: hollerith = (integerLiteral <* quotationMark) >>= thisManyCharacters; See the ">>=" is involved which means it involves "impure action symbols". 09:26:36 oren: what 09:26:58 nothing you said made much sense 09:27:18 you're way too focused on details of machine representation when talking about something in the realm of theory... 09:28:28 ummm... is it wrong to say that regexes work on symbols while real computers in general work on numbers? 09:28:43 never mind 09:29:38 Real computers in general work on bits, isn't it? So, you cannot actually use numbers too large to fit in the memory. 09:31:38 that is a major difference but the difference salient to the problem at hand is that a real computer can compute the value of "43" as an integer and use that to tell how long the string is, while a regex can't (at least not easily). 09:32:09 so a lexer implemented as general code can do this easily while a lex lexer can't 09:33:06 that is all i'm saying: regex engines do not have arithmetic 09:33:17 O, that's all, then OK 09:34:40 I still wonder if such a thing would be actually possible though in the unbounded way using such mathematical models as regex or LR or whatever else; another model is Ligature Machine and I wonder if any variants of the Ligature Machine are capable of such thing. 09:46:08 [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41407&oldid=41402 * TomPN * (-35) /* Syntax */ 09:47:29 [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41408&oldid=41407 * TomPN * (+52) 09:48:40 [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41409&oldid=41408 * TomPN * (+107) 09:56:08 in terms of ligature machine, i think key question is given a number in decimal N, can we produce the string of N symbols? 09:56:39 converting decimal to unary would help considerably 09:57:38 [wiki] [[IDTM]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41410 * TomPN * (+629) Created page with "'''IDTM''', or Infinite Dimensional Tengwar Meltdown, is an esoteric programming language written by Tom Price-Nicholson in 2014. IDTM draws together ideas from his earlier pr..." 09:59:05 tengwar are awesome but they are not easily distinguishable... 10:01:21 [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41411&oldid=41410 * TomPN * (+294) 10:02:13 "the tengwar language from Lord of the Rings" -- youv'e got to be trolling me, aaaaaaa 10:06:00 [wiki] [[Talk:IDTM]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41412 * Orenwatson * (+125) blahg 10:09:37 [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41413&oldid=41411 * TomPN * (+912) 10:17:55 [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41414&oldid=41413 * TomPN * (+484) 10:38:21 [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41415&oldid=41414 * TomPN * (+1979) 10:39:11 [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41416&oldid=41409 * TomPN * (+65) /* See also */ 10:39:53 [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41417&oldid=41415 * TomPN * (+100) 10:40:13 [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41418&oldid=41396 * TomPN * (+67) /* See also */ 10:40:30 [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41419&oldid=41397 * TomPN * (+42) /* See also */ 10:40:44 [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41420&oldid=41394 * TomPN * (+42) /* See also */ 10:41:28 [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41421&oldid=41398 * TomPN * (+11) /* I */ 10:42:13 [wiki] [[User talk:TomPN]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41422&oldid=41399 * TomPN * (+10) /* Other esolangs */ 10:44:10 [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41423&oldid=41417 * TomPN * (+0) /* The Tehtar */ 10:44:19 [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41424&oldid=41423 * TomPN * (+0) /* Instructions */ 10:49:53 [wiki] [[User:TomPN]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41425 * TomPN * (+354) Created page with "Also know as Tom Price-Nicholson. I have created a bunch of esolangs. Here is a list in chronological order: * [[Musical notes]], 2014 * [[Dimensions]], 2014 * Quantum Dim..." 11:08:55 <_AndoDaan> ...And here I am endlessly agonizing over what my first esolang should be. 11:09:23 -!- cluid has joined. 11:10:33 zemhill, help 11:11:01 <_AndoDaan> cluid, what was your first esolang? 11:12:51 I don't know 11:13:27 i wish i knew, it's probably just boring old brainfuck though 11:14:01 <_AndoDaan> I mean, language that you authored. 11:14:51 I haven't created any esolangs 11:15:46 have y0ou? 11:15:55 I've tried, but I didnt come up with something original yet 11:16:18 <_AndoDaan> Ah, sorry. I would have guessed that you had. 11:16:33 this shame consumes me 11:16:47 <_AndoDaan> I'm in the same boat. 11:17:03 we could coauthor one 11:17:35 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 11:17:51 -!- _AndoDaan has quit (Quit: Bye). 11:18:35 hmm, that could be interesting. At the very least it would help knock some ideas around. 11:26:09 http://esolangs.org/wiki/McCulloch%27s_second_machine 11:26:11 I want to solve this too 11:27:33 Yeah, I saw that earlier. By solve, you mean " User:b_jonas would like to see a proof..." 11:27:37 ? 11:27:39 yes 11:27:43 it looks far too difficult though 11:31:22 So if the machine is TC equivalent, that would mean it is not possible. 11:31:44 yeah 11:35:17 hmm, it feels like a 3x+1 function. 11:35:38 Collatz, I mean. 11:36:46 yeah 11:36:58 If you could code a 3x+1 style iteration into it that would be very interesting 11:38:33 I don't remember what my first esolang was 11:38:38 it's not on the esowiki 11:38:40 -!- mroobmoobn has changed nick to mroman. 11:38:51 not burlesque? 11:41:25 I know what my first esolang was, and I believe the spec has been lost 11:45:57 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:51:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:51:58 argh the driver died _again_... no wait it suddenly showed up. 11:52:02 whew 11:53:00 except it had an exclamation mark for a moment... and now i'm having trouble with its menu. 11:53:48 AndoDaan: http://codepad.org/Xd33Oy5f 11:53:49 ok seems to be working. 11:53:50 oerjan, what 11:53:55 it was more like something like that 11:54:15 No, Burlesque wasn't my first esolang by far :D 11:54:55 Taneb: i have a driver for my touchpad that sometimes dies after hibernating the computer and then my touchpad gets very annoying to use (no scrolling), and the only way i've found to fix it is to reboot windows entirely. 11:55:08 Oooh, I thought you meant like a bus driver 11:55:24 Taneb: no. in fact i rarely take the bus. 11:55:29 I just invented an esolang: tree-Brainfuck 11:55:46 it has two new operators, PUSH and POP which let you manage a tree of tapes 11:55:55 it is much easier to program in than brainfuck 11:56:56 if the tape head is here: 0101010101[1]010111 then when you push do stuff and pop, anything left of [] will be retained, but anythig right of [] will be deleted 11:57:00 I mean reverted 11:58:35 cluid: is this your rite of passage 11:59:15 it could be called brainstacks 12:00:26 oerjan: I parsed it as if it was about a person, too. 12:00:52 fizzie: ARE YOU SAYING PERSONS ARE DYING INSIDE MY COMPUTER TDNH 12:01:05 hey oerjan have you thouht about mchullochs second machine? 12:01:16 yep, in fact i think i've nearly solved the problem 12:01:38 oerjan: That's what makes it run. 12:02:03 fizzie: always knew computers were fiendish, but... 12:02:33 i think my only remaining case is when there are no 3's and exactly 2 5's 12:02:52 (and whatever 2's and 4's) 12:03:25 b_jonas: ^ 12:04:06 damn!! 12:04:08 nice workk 12:05:24 the remaining case is somewhat complicated though, e.g. 5252 is immortal but 2525 is not 12:08:14 hm i think 2442 as a substring is equivalent to 2 12:08:42 oh wait 12:09:00 no, not necessarily 12:09:26 the first 2 could be prefixed by a 5 say 12:10:02 5244252 -> 4425244252 -> 5244252 oh hm that case works 12:12:54 425245 -> 5425 -> 55 hm 12:15:03 42252245 -> 542252 -> 252252 --> 252252 so it can be immortal even if the second 5 is last 12:16:15 at this point, it's the 4's that seem to complicate matters 12:17:03 anyway, any string iterates either to this stage or to one which is obviously mortal or obviously immortal 12:17:20 oerjan: ok 12:17:26 awesome! 12:17:37 i wonder how you found that out 12:17:55 and yes, the 4 definitely complicate the matters, it's the twist. 12:19:37 cluid: the first thing to notice is that if you have a string of the form x ++ y ++ z, then in less than length(x)+length(z) iterations it will either die or get to a string that starts with y or reverse(y) 12:20:16 that's how you prove that strings with digits other than 2,3,4,5 cannot be immortal, for one thing 12:20:21 oerjan: um, no, you need some more restrictions to make that precise 12:20:36 b_jonas: are you sure? 12:21:02 oerjan: x=3, y=2, z=3 is a counterexample, it is immortal but never iterates to a string that starts with y or reverse(y) 12:21:18 oops 12:21:43 -!- prontotest has joined. 12:21:44 -!- prontotest has left. 12:21:52 oh 12:22:07 right it's imprecise. 12:23:06 it's that m() will be applied to something of that form 12:23:28 -!- dianne has joined. 12:24:12 -!- drdanmaku has joined. 12:24:39 but it can possibly happen as part of the rule calculating a prefix 12:25:36 so it will start with something of the form [345]* ++ y or [345]* ++ reverse(y) 12:26:05 hopefully that is correct. 12:28:05 anyway, after getting digits outside [2345] out of the way, you can note that if there are 3's in the string, it will get to [345]*3 ++ s. if m(s) doesn't contain 3, then all 3's die; if m(s) _does_ contain 3, then this case is immortal. (because anything of the form ...3...2...3... is immortal) 12:29:05 *all 3's disappear 12:29:54 now the remaining case has only [245] 12:31:16 we count the number of [45]+ blocks in it. if there is just one, it is mortal. if there are three or more, it's immortal. (there's a ...5...2...5...2...5... rule similar to the ...3...2...3... one) 12:32:44 oh hm 12:32:51 -!- S1 has joined. 12:32:58 * 5[45]+ blocks 12:33:04 needs to have at least one 5 12:33:04 -!- S1 has left. 12:36:02 after a few steps of executing these blocks, you either will have merged the result blocks to one (thus mortal), expanded to more than two (thus immortal), or the two remaining blocks can only have one 5 each. 12:37:29 and now it depends a lot on the surrounding pattern of 2's and 4's what happens, it seems. 12:37:53 which i haven't solved yet. 12:51:37 hm i guess this case is hardest precisely because it _doesn't_ blow up trivially. 13:12:17 [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41426&oldid=41421 * TomPN * (+25) /* Q */ 13:14:37 [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41427&oldid=41416 * TomPN * (+2) /* Adding tehtar to form instructions */ 13:18:32 -!- GeekDude has joined. 13:18:36 -!- GeekDude has quit (Changing host). 13:18:36 -!- GeekDude has joined. 13:19:07 [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41428&oldid=41427 * TomPN * (+10) /* Syntax */ 13:27:25 [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41429&oldid=41424 * TomPN * (+33) /* Instructions */ 13:28:07 [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41430&oldid=41429 * TomPN * (+0) /* Entropy */ 13:40:49 unsafe { sgeo.attemt_to_get_through_day_without_phone(); ] 13:40:52 } 13:41:06 :( 13:41:52 hmm. 13:42:27 is that a phone-to-be-called-and-call-people-with, or a phone-with-gps-to-know-where-you-are? 13:42:42 Both 13:43:07 which of those is causing you to suffer? 13:43:16 Although the former is more signficant day to day, latter is going to be significant Friday 13:43:28 Just in a feeling of safety way 13:43:44 I don't necessarily use it all the time to keep safe, but like knowing it's there 13:44:16 is it an ipod? 13:44:19 apple phone 13:44:41 no 13:45:01 It is a phone with what I am guessing is a damaged USB port 13:45:09 use a spare phone 13:45:45 Looked for my old phone, couldn't find it 13:46:31 AFK 13:58:26 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 14:16:37 How did Gosper discover the glider gun? 14:16:53 I know that he used an oscilloscope to display/animate GOL 14:20:21 -!- indiagreen has left. 14:22:04 wow, he did? 14:22:07 that's so cool 14:25:01 I don't think so 14:25:08 I think that's earlire 14:25:25 oscilloscope was used to animate GoL, but only for simple constructs like the glider 14:25:28 the gun is later 14:28:27 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:29:01 -!- augur has joined. 14:33:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:38:20 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:39:17 -!- GeekDude has joined. 14:40:00 -!- GeekDude has changed nick to GeoDude. 14:44:30 -!- scounder has quit (Changing host). 14:44:31 -!- scounder has joined. 14:50:41 -!- GeoDude has changed nick to GeekDude. 14:53:50 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:59:28 -!- AndoDaan_ has joined. 15:02:32 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:02:42 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:02:57 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpgA2oCQj9o 15:03:14 computing pi in game of life 15:25:52 -!- ZombieAlive has joined. 15:30:30 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 15:40:47 -!- hjulle has joined. 15:45:50 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:54:15 -!- Decensum has joined. 15:55:45 -!- augur has joined. 16:00:52 If the Finnish border isnt called the Finnish line im done with life 16:01:09 Also C worked thanks for telling me to use that 16:03:03 The joke is that finnish line sounds like finish line 16:03:11 prety good 16:04:41 Yeh 16:19:38 I can't find a download for Martin Gardner scientific american :( 16:21:43 Torrent it 16:21:49 Or use deepweb 16:22:19 how do I do that? 16:23:24 VPN+t0r i think 16:23:32 Or go torrent it 16:23:52 Idk what Martin garder is so ask someone here 16:24:56 OK 16:25:08 Decensum, where do i get martin gardner scientific american? 16:25:41 The joke is that technically you are someone here, even though its already clear you dont know the answer 16:26:46 Then why ask me? 16:27:42 the joke. 16:28:16 I see now 16:28:40 :I 16:41:35 Decensum: you're allowed to type "tor" 16:41:57 I hear sirens. 16:43:50 it was crated by the US naval research laboratory and the department of state is a major source of funding, talking about it is unlikely to produce any sirens in the US at least :p 16:44:00 *created. *developed, even, whatever 16:44:23 elliott: stop correcting yourself so fast i was going to make an indiana jones joke 16:45:11 oerjan: sorry, OCD refuses to cooperate with that request :p 16:45:15 darn 16:47:14 -!- ocharles_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:47:14 -!- supay has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:47:15 -!- mihow has joined. 16:48:21 -!- bb010g has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:48:25 -!- Decensum has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:48:46 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:08:03 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:08:34 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:11:57 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 17:17:32 -!- axelcsep has joined. 17:23:54 -!- shikhin has joined. 17:35:30 -!- axelcsep has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:43:24 -!- drdanmaku has joined. 17:45:12 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:46:15 -!- Vorpal has joined. 17:46:15 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 17:46:15 -!- Vorpal has joined. 17:48:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:59:07 -!- bb010g has joined. 18:04:17 -!- ocharles_ has joined. 18:05:59 -!- oren has quit (Quit: conexion taimd aut). 18:09:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:21:23 -!- supay has joined. 18:23:04 -!- augur has joined. 18:25:31 -!- Decensum has joined. 18:34:28 -!- oren has joined. 18:37:40 any tips on what i'll forget during an algorithm design exam? 18:39:20 -!- dario has joined. 18:42:00 hi 18:42:34 -!- GeekDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:43:13 hi 18:44:10 how are you? 18:44:37 great! 18:45:35 -!- GeekDude has joined. 18:49:33 brainntree: BF on infinite tree of cells ratger than a tape 18:49:54 braingraph 18:50:08 that actually sounds kind of interesting :/ 18:50:25 maybe add some way to tie the graph up circularly and then restrict loops somehow 18:50:34 would need a way to specify the topology of graph 18:50:56 (in informal sense of "topology") 18:51:42 like how many edges each vertex has, how many vertices it loops at, ets 18:51:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:52:21 I was assuming you'd change the graph structure dynamically as it executes 18:52:34 reify control into it 18:53:15 oh! then the [ statement would be a fork in the graph 18:53:27 with a zero and nonzer edge 18:53:52 well, I was rather thinking that you'd only get a simple restricted (not TC on a tape) control structure 18:53:59 and you'd have to make it TC by tying the graph up appropriately 18:54:32 like, only "balanced" loops, but you can change the edges dynamically during the loop 18:55:43 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:00:35 -!- augur has joined. 19:09:44 -!- shikhout has joined. 19:10:04 -!- shikhin has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:10:09 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin. 19:10:23 -!- S1 has joined. 19:11:14 which NPC problems are good for reducing problems to? 19:12:56 *reducing problems from... 19:20:36 Throw a 21-sided die, pick result from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karp%27s_21_NP-complete_problems 19:22:40 cool. i'll write those down and that will be my aid sheet for algorithms/computability 19:23:18 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 19:23:49 everything else in the course is simple, i just need to know which famous problems are actually known to be NPC 19:23:54 i reduce this problem to deckard cain being trapped in tristram hth 19:24:18 @google which famous problems are actually known to be NPC 19:24:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NP-complete_problems 19:24:19 Title: List of NP-complete problems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 19:25:14 so i can write their names and descriptions down on my aid sheet for the exam. it's lucky that i get to make an aid sheet... 19:26:54 ooh, subset sum! i forgot that one! 19:27:37 sokoban 19:28:30 sokoban is pspace-complete, so too hard. 19:29:30 :O 19:29:42 :B 19:30:05 what about the binary puzzle. 19:30:34 I noticed there don't seem to be many solvers for those, but perhaps it's just a case of no one knowing about them or bothering. 19:32:01 (like Pousse) 19:35:54 -!- oren has quit (Quit: lunchtaim). 19:50:28 -!- dts|pokeball has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:50:51 -!- dts|pokeball has joined. 19:51:21 -!- axelcsep has joined. 20:02:34 -!- dts|pokeball has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:02:59 -!- dts|pokeball has joined. 20:04:47 -!- dario has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:05:47 -!- nycs has joined. 20:07:17 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:18:54 -!- Patashu has joined. 20:24:50 -!- jose__ has joined. 20:26:01 it's really big the portal, is there some esoteric social network in existence? 20:26:58 Just IRC, I think 20:27:08 is anyone good at derivatives of data types? 20:27:34 cluid: What question do you have about it other than that? 20:27:35 i got an AAAA+++++ on my derivatives of data types course 20:27:45 (it was on ebay) 20:28:36 zzo38, I'm not sure how to write movement functions for data T a = Branch (T a) a (T a), I have already got data Z a = ZL (Z a) a (T a) | M T T | ZR (T a) a (Z a) 20:29:59 I am not quite sure either 20:30:42 Although the term "M T T" in your definition look like wrong to me, it is the wrong kind, isn't it? 20:31:01 -!- Decensum has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:31:22 thank for the correction, I've changed it to M (T a) (T a) now 20:32:25 ah I thinkn that I have it now 20:34:59 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:35:42 Now it does look correct to me 20:58:07 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:59:53 -!- nycs has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:00:22 -!- nycs has joined. 21:00:47 -!- drdanmaku has quit. 21:02:47 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 21:08:40 -!- jose__ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 21:15:51 my brainfuck interpreter doesnt work :( 21:17:51 nvm it does 21:22:00 I need to find a silly D&D game so I can get this character :( 21:23:22 how do I read all the input in haskell? 21:23:27 What character is it exactly? 21:23:43 cluid: You can use "getContents" although that is using lazy I/O 21:23:59 thanks 21:24:56 (Lazy I/O makes the IO monad to be impure, I think.) 21:25:31 (The way some kinds of errors are trapped also makes the IO monad to be impure.) 21:26:56 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1). 21:27:45 I have implemented a new brainfuck derivative 21:27:59 i have to try to write some programs with it that couldn't be done in brainfuck 21:32:44 What are the new features though? 21:33:19 Brainfuck is Turing complete, so it can do any function computable in a Turing machine when using the standard I/O model and not others. 21:33:45 zzo38, instead of being based on a right infinite array of cells, it is based on a infinite binary tree 21:34:04 so instead of < and > , we have ^ (back) and < > to traverse down left or right branches 21:36:33 any idea for an esolang that would help children to toy around without a computer? 21:36:50 bitwise cyclic tag> 21:37:35 hmm 21:38:25 http://lpaste.net/116196 21:38:29 Here's an example of this 21:38:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:38:51 I can swap two cells by using a third 'outside' one 21:38:59 this is not possible in brainfuck 21:40:17 "Not possible" is an awfully heavy statement. You can alternate the tape between "data" cells and spare cells, and do the same. 21:40:49 I don't think what im saying is contraversial 21:42:39 It depends on what you mean when you say it, of course. But "not possible" kind of makes it sound like you'd be saying you couldn't e.g. write an interpreter for your thing in brainfuck. 21:42:42 Using such a binary tree may make it far more suitable for some things, although its computation class isn't affected by such. 21:43:02 you can write an interpreter for this in brainfuck 21:43:22 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:43:25 Proof: I've implemented it in haskell 21:46:06 -!- FreeFull has joined. 21:58:28 -!- dts|pokeball has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:58:44 -!- augur has joined. 21:58:52 -!- dts|pokeball has joined. 21:59:32 -!- dts|pokeball has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:00:19 -!- dts|pokeball has joined. 22:00:54 I will try to find some things that you can progarm in it shorter than you can do in brainfuck, or other interesting ways it beats brainfuck 22:01:47 -!- dts_ has joined. 22:02:08 -!- dts_ has left. 22:03:46 -!- axelcsep has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:05:15 [wiki] [[ABC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41431&oldid=33852 * BCompton * (+48) /* Interpreters */ dead links 22:08:04 http://esolangs.org/wiki/ABC 22:08:10 could it be marked as sub-turing? 22:13:04 That sounds relatively safe. If we had a category for that in general, and not just more specific things? 22:13:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:14:22 (If you even meant a category by "marked", as I assumed.) 22:16:10 -!- augur has joined. 22:20:46 What would "invert the accumulator" meam exactly? 22:22:23 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:31:01 -!- nys has joined. 22:34:38 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 22:49:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:51:18 -!- AndoDaan_ has changed nick to AndoDaan. 22:59:33 -!- CrazyM4n has joined. 23:04:34 [wiki] [[User:CrazyM4n]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41432 * CrazyM4n * (+89) created page 23:05:40 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:06:17 -!- augur has joined. 23:06:26 the other day being a slow day at work, I got going making a fungot style for our commit messages 23:06:27 olsner: he wrote the scheme plugin for irssi? without indentation support and such? compared to windows 23:06:39 fungot: nah 23:06:39 olsner: there can be no side effects; they _must_ have happened earlier, and maybe scheme48, though i'm not personally aware of them, i'm afraid. 23:11:47 The main thing that my brainfuck lets you do is encode temp varibales in bianry (>><><>) rather than unary (>>>>>>>>>>>>) 23:12:00 but it has potentially more power, just very hard to use.. 23:13:53 haven't gotten to try running a fungot instance (lacking an IRC server etc), but oddly enough the instructions in the repo seem to work 23:13:53 olsner: 14:25:48 rj: no such file or directory." just like that.) thanks for the tip jonnay 23:16:06 its not just temp variablesthough.. you can get a new infinite tree at any point, i dont know how to use that though 23:16:34 olsner, heh, dthey didn't work for fungot 23:16:34 Taneb: what about it?) in bingen that are even cheaper... so i might as well 23:18:14 what are some programs very hard to write in brainfuck? maybe I can find simple implementations in this 23:18:23 that would justify it 23:18:37 Taneb: fungot probably can't follow simple instructions 23:18:37 olsner: that's where i learned to trigger a page load. ( filename.ss), 23:20:31 https://archive.org/ is doing a wikipedia style fundraiser 23:21:08 does anyone have an archive of "Keymaker's many brainfuck programs"? http://www.73b.org/ 23:23:49 -!- cluid has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:29:05 olsner: I was sure I had still in the instructions the "I have to eat now, I'll document this later" comment, but seems that I only had that online for maybe four years before fixing it. 23:29:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:29:55 (I see it's still missing Appendix A.) 23:30:34 I noticed that, but I didn't see any references to Appendix A 23:30:42 If cluid comes back, I found https://github.com/johanvanl/Brainfuck-Interpreter/tree/master/examples/73b 23:30:54 what was it meant to contain? 23:30:56 olsner: Step 5, "For format specification, see Appendix A of this document." 23:31:02 olsner: Not terribly crucial, perhaps. 23:31:05 ah, that 23:31:45 (Also VariKN's new home is https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN and it's up to a 1.1 release.) 23:32:41 iirc, the instructions explicitly mentioned 1.0.2 though 23:32:51 They do, but not for any particular reason. 23:33:03 and it seems to need an old version of gcc to compile 23:33:03 It was the newest version when the instructions were written, is all. 23:33:43 The ARPA n-gram model format is quite standard, chances are a modern VariKN version would work as well. 23:34:38 Also there's some theoretical reason I can't possibly remember why, if the -E option is x, the -D option should be... er, maybe x/2. Or possibly vice versa. Or maybe it was some other factor than 2. But there's a relationship there. 23:38:01 one thing I had a problem with was running into the 2 million token(?) limit in the fungot format 23:38:02 olsner: as if thats going to be 23:38:11 [wiki] [[Simplefunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41433&oldid=40413 * CrazyM4n * (+228) 23:38:47 * oerjan finally remembered to find the file for the flaky driver while it was still running 23:38:52 olsner: Yes, you may need to prune rare words. 23:38:56 I guess the fnording happens at the last step and the model includes all the singleton tokens? 23:40:26 olsner: Actually, there's no fnording in the model construction if you follow the instructions literally. 23:41:31 olsner: VariKN has vocabulary prune options ("-f N" keeps only the N most common words, and "-d N" drops all words that occur less than N times) that you can use. 23:41:36 to fnord, or not to fnord, that is the question 23:42:09 olsner: From what I recall, though, it actually drops all ngrams where OOV words occur, rather than mapping them to a single OOV token. You'd have to do some manual processing to fnord. 23:42:33 Oh, that's probably not true. 23:42:40 is that strictly less than? i.e. -d 1 does nothing and -d 2 removes tokens that only happen once? 23:42:55 Because there's also a -N option that will "remove n-grams containing OOV words". 23:42:58 So I believe. 23:43:11 Maybe I should just try. 23:45:15 I think the token count got below the limit after unifying integers, splitting on dashes and underscores and some other mangling 23:45:18 (there were something like 100k unique bug numbers referenced) 23:45:37 It seems to be <= instead of <, unlike what the documentation implied. 23:45:49 So "-d 0" will do nothing, and "-d 1" will drop singleton words. 23:47:11 Given the Zipfian distribution you usually get, probably "-d 1" is often enough. 23:48:36 Zipf is a pretty good name to have when having things named after yourself 23:50:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:51:25 After some empirical testing, I'd say both the -f and -d options actually do fnord the model. 23:51:35 (hmm, wonder what the worst name for that is... like, the name that has the most different things named after it) 23:52:11 Gauss is pretty bad, though often someone else's name gets included to disambiguate. 23:52:15 Still, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_things_named_after_Carl_Friedrich_Gauss 23:53:22 -!- oren has joined. 23:56:01 Alternatively, Euler. There's a [[List of things named after Leonhard Euler]], and the general [[Category:Lists of things named after mathematicians]], and its higher-level generalizations (apparently mathematicians are scientists are people). 23:57:54 -!- boily has joined. 23:57:57 due to a theorem of euler, ... 23:59:57 -!- axelcsep has joined.