00:00:22 <oerjan> (with the same name, that is)
00:01:15 <oerjan> hm i guess the problem here is that you want to temporarily change the reader to use that symbol for parsing x
00:01:43 <oerjan> so you would need to be able to mutate the usual symbol lookup table
00:02:09 <oerjan> none of this seems impossible to implement, but i don't know if anything supports it
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00:03:02 <zzo38> And then if you have (~~x 'x) is another thing meaning where whenever it is expanded/executed it becomes a new token if you have two tildes, always called "x" though, rather than only when it is being read.
00:03:57 <oerjan> hm not sure what you mean there that isn't already implied by the reader case
00:05:46 <oerjan> the way i understand it, once read as a different symbol it wouldn't be turned into the usual symbol by anything other than turning it into a string and back again
00:07:11 <zzo38> It is what I mean; if it is turned into a string and back again then it becomes the usual symbol.
00:08:56 <zzo38> Another command can be ~( ... ) which creates a block without any name resolving at all (also defers some other things) and then one command that reads it does resolving; in that case you can have ~x inside and it become a new ~x token every time it is expanded by the command to do so; same with anything else in the block, it is completely opaque until it is expanded.
00:09:04 <oerjan> hm if (~~x ...) first reads the ... part, and then turns into a macro that wraps the result expression into using the different symbol table...
00:09:16 <oerjan> this sounds like the kind of thing call/cc might mess up :P
00:10:40 <oerjan> (because the symbol table would probably not be lexically scoped itself)
00:10:45 <zzo38> Well, actually I would intended that while first reading the ... part it is treated as if it says ~x instead, before turns into a macro that wraps the result expression into using the different symbol table (which also does it using another new "x")
00:11:32 <oerjan> um two different new "x"es?
00:12:35 <zzo38> Yes the first one is at reading time, the expansion then replaces the first new x with the second one; it makes a new second one for each instance of the macro, although the first one is the same every time.
00:14:04 <zzo38> Maybe it is a bit confusing what I meant; it also isn't entirely clear how useful it is compared to other ways
00:16:29 <oerjan> i don't quite see the use either, except that this might be useful to _implement_ hygiene of macros.
00:16:57 <zzo38> It is what I thought of too
00:24:38 <oerjan> @ask Jafet <Jafet> How devious; implementing eode efficiently requires nondeterminism <-- do you mean eodermdrome?
00:30:18 <oerjan> int-e: that GG wallpaper may be the silliest tyrannosaurid i've seen. also i see the foglios are up to date with the latest dinosaur feather theories.
00:34:42 <oerjan> @tell int-e i wonder if agatha is crazy enough to try and get the beast to take them to paris
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01:02:48 <oerjan> (can you tell i'm running out of portmanteaus)
01:03:08 <boily> (not a problem. the inspiration will strike one day.)
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01:07:06 <boily> oerjan: how are the holidays on your end?
01:07:10 <lambdabot> CYQB 270000Z 25011G16KT 15SM OVC035 02/M01 A2999 RMK SC8 SLP159
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01:08:03 <oerjan> damn you tvtropes, putting subpages on a menu so it's impossible to open them in a new tab...
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01:10:16 <oerjan> technically all the subpages also had buttons _except_ the one i wanted to visit.
01:11:13 <boily> just wait; tvtropes has a kickstarterredesign...
01:11:51 <oerjan> well this is a new "feature"
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01:23:22 <elliott> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tvtropes/the-tv-tropes-revitalization-project the fucking image...
01:38:25 <zzo38> I don't go on TV Tropes in my opinion All The Tropes is better anyways so I use that one.
01:50:53 <coppro> all the tropes is on wikia
01:52:30 <boily> why the hate against wikia?
01:54:25 <Solace> (1) ye to yes as why the hate against wikia (2) ;0; is an emoji
01:54:30 <coppro> wikia is not very friendly
01:54:52 <coppro> uh, let me try to remember the issues nethack had
01:55:13 <coppro> I think they changed the theme in such a way that the NH folks a) didn't like it and b) couldn't change back
01:55:32 <boily> Solace: what is it an emoji of?
01:55:42 <coppro> ais can explain it all better
01:56:41 <elliott> I know like six wikias that moved off wikia because wikia is horrible
01:56:53 <elliott> and then wikia kept their old site up and scrubbed it of all references to the new one
01:57:07 <elliott> and those sites still live in as dormant, badly out of date zombies that still snatch up google rankings
01:57:15 <elliott> those sites as in the wikia ones
01:58:12 <Solace> i still have fond memories of when i first joined the internet
01:58:37 <coppro> yeah, wikia does not appreciate you trying to move off their servers
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01:59:09 <coppro> apparently the only way to kill a wikia wiki is to slowly vandalize it, in such a way that the admins don't notice and can't figure out when to restore it to when they do
02:00:05 <Solace> how do you vandalize it?
02:01:14 <coppro> make changes that only someone in the field would realize are wrong
02:01:22 <coppro> for instance, in wikihack, you could change a bunch of stats of monsters to make them wrong
02:02:04 <coppro> if you do it carefully enough, the wikia admins won't know when to revert it to
02:02:31 <coppro> if you just try to delete things, even as the wiki's admin, wikia will step in and revert
02:02:36 <coppro> because all they care about are visits
02:05:14 <zzo38> All The Tropes is on Orain, not on Wikia
02:05:24 <coppro> I wonder if there's any way to poison the pages' pagerank
02:05:25 <zzo38> (Although there is a Wikia version too; I use the Orain version)
02:08:51 <elliott> Anime Boobs Wiki - A wiki where the various women of anime/manga are classified by their bust sizes and their measurements are listed for fans of those characters. They use content from our forks that was removed by TV Tropes thanks to their advertisers.
02:09:07 <zzo38> It uses a compatible license so it is possible to move from the Wikia version to the Orain version and vice-versa.
02:10:05 <zzo38> People who use both versions can therefore synchronize them; I use Orain version but agree to put my contributions as public domain therefore they can be used on anyone.
02:17:14 <oerjan> i read a claim that wikia's license is copyright infringement because they unilaterally changed it at one point
02:18:29 <zzo38> Yes, which is one reason why they made All The Tropes
02:19:39 <oerjan> i also recall that of the two forks, only one of them did _not_ have a copyright problem
02:19:40 <coppro> zzo38: actually you can't port content onto tvtropes unless it's original
02:20:04 <coppro> at least, if everything they say is to be believed
02:20:14 <coppro> because they ostensibly require you to assign copyright of your contributions to them
02:20:17 <oerjan> coppro: zzo38 wasn't speaking about tvtropes i think
02:20:21 <zzo38> Only stuff from before the license of TV Tropes has been changed is copied into All The Tropes.
02:21:48 <Sgeo> coppro: has this happened? Successfully killing a wikia, I mean?
02:22:43 <coppro> Sgeo: ais seems to think ithas
02:23:28 <oerjan> i have noticed such vandalism on wikipedia before, so it may happen just due to attrition once a wiki gets abandoned...
02:24:05 <coppro> oerjan: yeah, it happens on wikipedia too
02:24:17 <coppro> I remember one time when some famous guy died
02:24:38 <coppro> someone clever got news before most of the press and edited a bunch of fake stuff into his page on wikipedia
02:24:42 <coppro> then all the news sources cited it
02:24:57 <coppro> then when it was called as citation needed, he used the eulogies as proof
02:25:28 <oerjan> i wasn't referring to general vandalism, but to specifically changing little numbers that are awkward to check
02:26:29 <zzo38> I have a user space in All The Tropes (the Orain version) too.
02:26:33 <Sgeo> Incidentally, is Peter the Great's birthday on Wikipedia correct or incorrect
02:26:43 <Sgeo> I remember a decade ago seeing someone change the date by one
02:27:04 <zzo38> Did they forget what timezone it is in?
02:27:21 <Sgeo> Or maybe it was someone else, I thought they changed it from 3 to 4 or 4 to 3
02:28:11 <oerjan> i once helped change a wrong date on a frenchman's biography, turns out they'd got month/date order wrong, and then it had partly copied _to_ the french wikipedia version
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02:28:52 <oerjan> took a couple iterations by me and others to finally get both wikis right
02:29:53 <oerjan> but that wasn't vandalism
02:30:23 <oerjan> zzo38: they didn't have timezones in peter the great's days
02:31:23 <oerjan> this just makes it more important to have citations
02:31:27 <zzo38> oerjan: That is why someone got confused.
02:33:27 <oerjan> Sgeo: the article's dates contain neither 3 nor 4...
02:33:58 <Sgeo> I noticed. It might have been someone else. Or maybe there were two vandalisms. Or maybe the current version is wrong.
02:36:41 <oerjan> but then it's semi-protected
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06:32:52 <oren> the wiki is dead...
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06:43:39 <oren> it seems to me that gzip is misused a lot. tgz files are typically compressed once and then downloaded and uncompressed N times. but gzip is a stream compression! for this use, shouldn't we have a compressor that takes more time during compression to compress it even smaller, and perhaps to optimize the decompression?
06:45:09 <glguy> I think people use gz because it's ubiquitous, not because it's well-suited
06:47:44 <oren> actually, why aren't there more non-stream compressors that go over the data N times?
06:49:18 <glguy> "Go over the data N times?" Compressed data tends to not compress well
06:50:15 <oren> glguy: but why not use a more expensive data analysis step
06:50:34 <oren> to optimize the compression code?
06:51:28 <glguy> Xz typically compresses more than gz and also requires more processing time and memory
06:54:06 <oren> when compressing an archive, you have random access to the whole file. this is qualitatively different situation from compressing a data stream...
06:56:07 <oren> doesanywell-known algorithm take advantage of this capability?
07:28:02 <Jafet> @ask oerjan Yes. (Interestingly, "eode" is K_3 but there is no prefix that is a K_4.)
07:30:13 <oerjan> Jafet: i think that's because K_{odd_n} is eulerian but K_{even_n} isn't
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07:34:57 <oerjan> since eodermdrome itself is a eulerian circuit, no subpath can repeat edges, thus no subpath can be K_4
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07:38:15 <Jafet> oren: video compressors have B frames, which are predicted from a past and a future frame
07:42:32 <Jafet> Trying to compress an entire string in one go is pointless because it will probably be NP-hard
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08:59:41 <fizzie> elliott: Ping pong, the sport of kings.
09:00:07 <elliott> ping esolangs.org, for that matter
09:00:10 <fizzie> Yeah. Let's re-ping Gregor, since the server doesn't answer to ssh either.
09:00:41 <fizzie> (And I don't have any accounts to the cloud-at-no-cost-but-no-service-either's web thingies, or whatever they have.)
09:01:10 <elliott> it's almost like one-off pricing isn't a viable business model for an ongoing service
09:01:23 <elliott> CloudAtCost delivers quality, security, value and unlimited scalability to customers using a state of the art hosting facility.
09:05:06 <oren> last time i saw a state of the art hosting facility it was a 2003 PC under a desk, with a "broken" sticker on it
09:06:56 <oerjan> i'd `addquote that if HackEgo were working
09:07:44 <oerjan> i suppose being present is also a prerequisite
09:07:50 <elliott> oerjan: we were just talking about esolangs.org being down...
09:08:09 <fizzie> oerjan: Hoping for a Christmas miracle?
09:08:34 <elliott> oerjan: hackego is hosted there
09:08:47 <oerjan> elliott: you seem to be assuming i am confused about something
09:09:30 <oerjan> i distinctly recall me causing you to ping fizzie in the first place
09:11:08 <Taneb> I'm confused about something
09:11:26 <Taneb> Nothing particularly relevant, though
09:11:29 <oerjan> did you know that the mcculloch 2 string 525224 can be interpreted as slowly calculating the sequence 2^n-1 in a very verbose representation
09:13:14 <Taneb> I don't even know what a mccullock 2 string is
09:13:26 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/McCulloch%27s_second_machine
09:13:57 <oerjan> i'm somewhat trying to solve the mortality decision problem mentioned there
09:14:02 <Taneb> Googling gave me garden equiptment
09:14:28 <oerjan> so i invented a more compact notation for the strings that have particularly complex behavior
09:14:59 <zzo38> I noticed HackEgo was not working as it did not respond to my `danddreclist command.
09:15:02 <oerjan> that one becomes 5 [0] 5 [1,0] which may not look very compact but it gets better as it grows
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09:17:14 <oerjan> it becomes 5 [1,0,2^n-1,0] 5 [1]
09:19:30 <oerjan> (the 5's are actual 5's from the string, the rest is a summary of the distribution of 2's and 4's)
09:20:02 <oerjan> with 4's only counting up to parity
09:21:59 <oerjan> oh this one was also nice
09:24:29 <oerjan> it settles into 5 [x] 54 [y] which has fibonacci-like development
09:24:48 <Taneb> Is it possible to reimplement n+k patterns with pattern synonyms?
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09:25:27 <oerjan> Taneb: can't you do everything by using view patterns in combination with them?
09:28:32 <Jafet> > let f 0 = 0; f 1 = 1; f (pred -> n@(pred -> m)) = f n + f m in f <$> [0..]
09:28:47 <Jafet> > let f 0 = 0; f 1 = 1; f (pred -> n@(pred -> m)) = f n + f m in f <$> [0..9]
09:29:16 <Jafet> > let f ((-2) -> n) = n in f 2
09:29:18 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (t0 -> t1))
09:29:18 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_122’
09:29:18 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (t -> t1), GHC.Num.Num t)
09:30:15 <oerjan> however n+k patterns also have a comparison test
09:30:33 <Jafet> > let f ((-(2)) -> 0) = 0 in f 2
09:30:34 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (t -> a0))
09:30:34 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘f’
09:30:34 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (t -> a),
09:30:36 <oerjan> (n+1 = 0 doesn't match)
09:30:50 <oerjan> Jafet: i said use subtract
09:31:28 <Jafet> > let f ((+-2) -> 0) = 0 in f 2
09:31:29 <lambdabot> ‘-’ (imported from Prelude), ‘++’ (imported from Data.List),
09:31:35 <oerjan> there is no way to use - as a section
09:31:38 <Jafet> > let f ((+(-2)) -> 0) = 0 in f 2
09:33:05 <Jafet> I don't like using function names that are longer than their definitions
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12:54:29 <Phantom_Hoover> so there's a field of mathematics called 'non-galoisian galois theory'
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13:23:25 <mroman> non-linear linear transforms.
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16:22:17 <lambdabot> LOWI 271550Z 27007KT 9999 FEW050 SCT070 BKN100 M02/M03 Q1000 R08/1///95 NOSIG
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16:22:33 <kallisti> for whatever reason I couldn't connect to irc.freenode.net, I had to grab a specific domain from freenode's server list.
16:25:08 <kallisti> int-e: what am I looking at right now
16:26:20 <kallisti> not quite sure if this is the esoteric that this channel is about, but I'm currently writing a GUI application with win32 API.
16:26:24 <kallisti> I think that falls under esoteric, no?
16:26:27 <int-e> kallisti: an avian weather report for Innsbruck's airport (ICAO code LOWI).
16:26:53 <int-e> google "METAR" and you shall be enlightened.
16:27:14 <kallisti> avian? so like, birds strapped with atmospheric measuring equipment?
16:28:18 <kallisti> I've always thought we should employ birds as weathermen
16:28:24 <int-e> Yeah, appealing but that's not really how it works. Airports have weather stations *for* aircrafts.
16:29:49 <kallisti> on an unrelated note, I think this is the last time I'll think to myself "hey, I should make a graphical C application for Windows in my freetime, being completely unpaid to do so!"
16:31:40 <int-e> Strictly speaking I think the win32 API does not qualify as esoteric. But don't let that stop you, we're often stretching the boundaries of this channel's topic anyway.
16:35:12 <int-e> @tell oerjan I'm not worried about getting to Paris yet. The more immediate problem is whether the engine will consume Agatha's locket.
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16:37:39 <kallisti> there doesn't seem to be very much support for passing user-defined data to window procedures...
16:37:46 <kallisti> I'd like to avoid global variables when possible.
16:39:03 <int-e> please, this is the 90s: nobody needs threads and global variables are your friends.
16:39:33 <int-e> (because you always know where they are without sacrificing one of those precious registers)
16:41:31 <lambdabot> EFHK 271620Z 34007KT 9999 BKN016 M08/M10 Q1011 TEMPO BKN013
16:42:14 <fizzie> It was supposed to get actually cold on Sunday/Monday (M20 to M30) but I think they sort of reneged on that.
16:42:50 <fizzie> http://www.foreca.fi/Finland/Espoo/15vrk suggests the daily low will just barely touch M20.
16:44:16 <fizzie> (Then it'll jump back up to "above zero during the day, below zero during the night", which -- combined with the amount of snow that's currently out there -- translates to mornings of "all surfaces are ice".)
16:46:30 <lambdabot> EGLL 271620Z 32004KT 290V360 9999 FEW026 04/00 Q1008 NOSIG
16:46:39 <fizzie> That looks quite different.
16:46:47 <int-e> Hmm, TEMPO. The clouds are getting closer to the ground?
16:47:30 <int-e> (BKN016 --> BKN013 later?)
16:47:53 <fizzie> I thought what's after TEMPO is what's currently happening, but only for a limited time.
16:49:48 <int-e> http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/407020-tempo-metar.html -- I'll go with the forecast idea
16:53:04 <int-e> But it's not a trend, it's an expected fluctuation. Subtle.
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17:36:35 <Gregor> I'll check on the esolangs server
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17:40:06 <Gregor> Idonno what was up with it, but a hard reboot solved the problem X-D
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17:46:32 <kallisti> anyone familiar with winAPI? I'm considering passing a void-pointer to the optional CREATESTRUCT parameter of CreateWindowEx so I can avoid global variable usage
17:46:46 <kallisti> any idea if this will break everything?
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17:48:01 <kallisti> I feel as though the unused wParam of WM_CREATE should specify user-defined data, and CreateWindowEx should have an optional argument to pass that information in, but that does not appear to be the case.
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17:52:30 <fizzie> kallisti: Isn't that pretty much exactly the function of the last parameter of CreateWindowEx (except special cases where it serves specific uses, like dialogs or MDI windows)? As far as I can tell from MSDN, it's an arbitrary LPVOID that you provide, and then the lpCreateParams member in the CREATESTRUCT that is passed as the lParam of the WM_CREATE message will be set to whatever you provided.
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18:12:18 <kallisti> fizzie: yeah I looked at the documentation closer and you're exactly right.
18:13:12 <kallisti> other fun things: I added a #define _CRT_SECURE_NO_WARNINGS and it still gives me an error about it
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21:28:53 <b_jonas> Somebody set up us the bomb.
21:30:27 <oren> would /// still be turing complete if there was a limit on how long the /x/y/ are allowed to be?
21:31:28 <b_jonas> oren: I think it's turing complete even if you allow only at most two characters in both the substitution and replacement
21:31:29 <oren> (i mean a relatively large limit, like 255)
21:32:45 <b_jonas> you need some way to create a long table at initialization
21:34:31 <oren> i was considering what would happen if instead of delimiters, /// had hollerith strings or pascal strings
21:35:13 <b_jonas> oren: would that make it similar to Fuun DNA?
21:35:34 <b_jonas> I think that has some data marked with a prefixed length, but I'm not quite sure
21:37:30 <zzo38> Why does the speakers in my computer making so much noise?
21:38:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: meh, my speakers outside the computer make too much noise when I turn them on, because the amplifier is a cheap bad quality one
21:38:46 <zzo38> They don't always make noise, but sometimes (somewhat often) makes all sorts of clicking, scratching, and white noises.
21:40:01 <zzo38> Interference from what? The LCD monitor? Printer? Surge protector? Keyboard? Those are the things which happen to be next to the speaker.
21:40:09 <oren> check your sound card drivers
21:40:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: dunno, maybe mobile phone, or cables next to the cable to the speaker
21:41:18 <scoofy> or problem in the sound card
21:41:46 <zzo38> The nearest mobile phone is in another room which is not adjacent to this one.
21:43:46 <oren> look under the desk at the cables, which if you are like me, entwine into a nigh-sentient crawling horror. Make sure that the speaker cables, including its power cable, are not curled around other cables.
21:45:07 <zzo38> They are near other cables but I cannot tell what's around others and not. However, it doesn't make this noise all the time; it does so less than half of the time.
21:46:03 * arjanb can hear from the speaker noise whether a lcd screen is turned on
21:46:32 <zzo38> Turning off the LCD doesn't help.
21:47:10 <oren> well next step, check your sound card drivers
21:47:10 <b_jonas> maybe try to ask someone who's good at hardware, that is, someone who just has to look at hardware to fix it
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21:59:10 <arjanb> what is a good approach for parsing in 2D? I want to try a few things with ascii art block diagram like constructs, but the only solutions i can think of are ugly hacks
22:02:34 <arjanb> parsing it in line by line first, annotated by column indices and then somehow merging lines into multiple blocks and wires
22:04:44 <oren> find upper corners
22:11:25 <arjanb> i could try that, maybe even use special tokes for corners...
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22:29:14 <oren> interesting fact: searching for a string a0,a1...an can be sped up by keeping a cache of where the string matches a prefix of itself.
22:29:38 <oren> did some math dude already discover that?
22:33:29 <oren> god damn it it's the "Knuth Morris Pratt Algorithm"
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23:56:58 <elliott> 23:56:38 <lambdabot> You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:57:02 <elliott> 23:56:42 <elliott> @messages
23:57:04 <elliott> 23:56:42 <lambdabot> hagb4rd said 14h 41m 53s ago: <elliott> also, he really hates me, and insults me to oerjan or something whenever I ban him again <- fyi: i have never talked to oerjan about you nor have i ever asked him to remove my ban. greetz hag.
23:58:27 <elliott> just some banned dude trying to convince me another op was lying to me after reading the logs
23:59:31 <zzo38> Well, everyone can read the log so you can confirm whether or not the another op really is lying, or if is just a misunderstanding somewhere, if you are reading it carefully.
23:59:45 <elliott> the lie in question would have been in /msg to me