00:01:06 Every ordinal number has a Cantor normal form, but certain ordinal numbers have non-terminating Cantor normal forms. 00:02:16 tswett: basically you get trouble once you get to something with alpha = omega^alpha 00:02:22 Right. 00:02:36 Is it possible to have, say, alpha = omega^alpha + 1? 00:02:50 i don't think so 00:03:06 omega^alpha >= alpha seems clear 00:03:26 omega^alpha >= alpha isn't obvious to me. 00:03:59 But Wikipedia does state something like that. 00:04:08 well it's true for limit ordinals if it's true for those below 00:04:21 because omega^ is continuous by definition 00:04:41 Every ordinal number has a "degree" under Cantor normal form. The degree of alpha is less than alpha, unless alpha = omega^alpha. 00:05:03 and omega^(alpha+1) = omega^alpha * omega > omega^alpha, (or so i hope) 00:05:33 Okay, so here's our notation so far. If the ordinal number is greater than its own degree, write it in Cantor normal form. Otherwise, it's a fixed point of exponentiation with base omega. 00:05:38 so omega^(alpha+1) > alpha by induction, so >= alpha+1 00:05:54 -!- adu has joined. 00:06:18 In which case it's of the form phi_1(beta) for some ordinal number beta. 00:06:40 So we can just write it like that, unless it happens that beta = phi_1(beta). 00:06:55 -!- arjanb has quit (Quit: zzz). 00:07:04 and then you make phi_alphas 00:07:22 But if that's the case, we can just write it as phi_2(gamma) for some ordinal number gamma. Unless it happens that gamma = phi_2(gamma). 00:07:31 In which case you can move on to phi_3, then phi_4, and so on. 00:08:04 and this works until you get to the sad state of phi_alpha(alpha) = alpha, or something like that 00:08:21 WP says phi_alpha(0) = alpha. 00:08:26 ok 00:08:33 At which point we choose to give up. 00:08:48 * oerjan doesn't remember all that stuff 00:09:48 So there we go. All ordinals below Gamma_0 can be written in terms of natural numbers, addition, and the phi function. 00:12:03 um is there some phi thing for getting multiplication and exponentiation? 00:12:51 e 00:13:01 Exponentiation, yeah. phi_0(alpha) = omega^alpha. 00:13:07 good 00:13:28 ah i guess you don't need multiplication because you only multiply by finite numbers 00:13:31 Multiplication by a natural number is just repeated addition. 00:13:43 And multiplication by an infinite ordinal might be exponentiation. 00:14:31 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:14:56 So it's probably easy to define arithmetic and ordering on these notations, or something. 00:15:01 yeah 00:15:48 you still have the distributive law of multiplication 00:16:08 so you just need to be able to multiply phi terms 00:16:26 -!- roasted42 has joined. 00:17:18 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:17:29 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:17:30 Well, every phi term is a fixed point of omega^. 00:17:45 So you multiply them by adding them and then omega^ing them. 00:17:49 yep 00:19:26 So gee, there definitely seems to be some regularity here. 00:20:16 also sometimes a+b simplifies to b 00:20:19 We seem to have a function fixedPoints : (Ord -> Ord) -> Ord -> Ord, which enumerates the fixed points of a function on the ordinal numbers. 00:21:07 Obviously, not every function on the ordinal numbers has fixed points. 00:21:39 the "continuous" ones do 00:21:59 continuous increasing 00:23:01 and enumerating fixed points of a continuous increasing function gives another one such iirc 00:23:03 And doesn't continuousness have some really simple definition? Like, a function is continuous iff the image of a limit is the limit of the images? 00:23:21 yeah 00:23:39 -!- GeekDude has changed nick to GeekFood. 00:24:52 where all the limits are usually increasing in practice, which means it's also just supremum 00:24:58 Right. 00:25:34 i think it's an ordinary topology except for the part of not being a set... 00:26:16 Let V_kappa be a model of ZFC. 00:26:17 Continue. 00:28:01 basically, open intervals are open. and non-limit ordinal singletons are open because {alpha} = (alpha-1, alpha+1) 00:28:41 Right, it's the order topology. 00:30:33 Hm. So, ordinal numbers below epsilon_0 have a certain obvious way to obtain a natural number by substituting a natural number for omega. 00:30:41 Just write it in Cantor normal form and then substitute. 00:31:51 Can you extend that to the Veblen functions in an obvious way? 00:37:00 There's definitely a sort of correspondence between defining large ordinal numbers and just defining large natural numbers. 00:37:19 Of course, every natural number, in principle, has a definition. 00:40:51 -!- boily has joined. 00:41:08 no results for "metacircular microsoft excel interpreter" 00:41:57 -!- skj3gg has joined. 00:47:09 I'd like to come up with a theory of arithmetic whose axioms are precisely those statements which are obviously true. 00:47:15 But there's a problem with that idea. 00:47:27 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:47:32 Suppose you have a theory T, whose axioms are precisely those statements which are obviously true. 00:47:55 T is obviously sound, meaning that T is obviously consistent, meaning that "T is consistent" is an axiom of T. 00:48:08 -!- roasted42 has joined. 00:48:23 And so T is inconsistent. Crap. 00:48:48 At least, that's the informal paradox. 00:49:34 actually the way around that is simply: T obviously has an infinite number of axioms 00:50:02 thus you cannot formulate "T is consistent" hth 00:50:24 Well, you can formulate "T is consistent" if T is definable, right? 00:50:44 now turn this around to a proof that T isn't definable hth 00:51:01 Right. 00:51:06 Now... 00:51:14 What's the smallest ordinal number that isn't arithmetically definable? 00:51:31 wilbur hth 00:53:30 12 and a quarter 00:53:54 12 and a quarter is the smallest ordinal number x such that x * 4 = 49. 00:54:06 the ordinality of the set of all microsoft excel programs 00:56:30 Oh, someone had already computed a bunch of base 2,3 palindromes but didn't submit them to the OEIS. <-- those bastards! 00:57:01 @tell Jafet Oh, someone had already computed a bunch of base 2,3 palindromes but didn't submit them to the OEIS. <-- those bastards! 00:57:01 Consider it noted. 00:59:34 -!- GeekFood has changed nick to GeekDude. 01:04:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:10:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:16:10 Night o/ 01:21:43 Night? 01:24:32 -!- burper has joined. 01:24:33 -!- burper has left. 01:26:12 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:26:41 Here I go, trying to create the perfect programming language again. 01:26:59 -!- roasted42 has joined. 01:29:29 tswello. 01:30:01 what is the most important feeling you want to achieve in that programming language? 01:30:45 an inclusion of colon 01:31:04 -!- roasted42 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:31:20 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…). 01:32:01 -!- roasted42 has joined. 01:33:28 are there collective nouns for punctuation symbols and syntactic features? a décalage of indentations? a surprise of exclamation marks? 01:34:04 i am pretty sure english collective nouns are just a kind of inside joke. 01:35:29 a weirdness of Norwegians... :P 01:35:38 (mainly because norwegian has no such ridiculous proliferation of specific-to-specific-nouns ones) 01:36:30 Ahoily. 01:36:44 we're pretty happy to use "flokk" for almost any kind of bird or mammal 01:37:30 I want to be able to write anything clearly and concisely. 01:37:38 insects do get "sverm" instead, i guess. 01:37:54 So far, this language looks so wonderful. 01:37:58 Here's a sample: 01:38:30 boily: are you implying that french has a similarly ridiculous collection? 01:38:40 {{ List <:> Set -> Set {{ empty <:> forall A : Set , List A ;; cons <:> forall A : Set , A -> List A -> List A ;; }} ;; }} 01:38:48 It'll probably look better in the future. 01:39:00 Hopefully. 01:39:14 All those <:>s are bound to get obnoxious. 01:39:59 So far this language is just Coq with worse syntax. 01:40:23 oerjan: never heard of any. we have the usual «troupeau», «cheptel» and similar. I'd say there are probably some weird cases, but then they are even more obscure than English ones. 01:40:50 good, good 01:40:57 * oerjan is forgetting to eat again 01:40:59 * boily stumbles upon the <:>es. 01:41:12 * boily had a hamburger. 01:41:36 (my dad was de passage in Montréal tonight. we had a beer and a hamburger each. it was good.) 01:42:26 oerjan: ah, there's a «banc de poissons», «horde de caribous», «envolée de castors»... 01:47:33 Quick! Give me a very complicated Algebra equation 01:48:08 e^x = x 01:48:28 * Lilax dies 01:50:01 * boily mapoles Lilax 01:50:19 no dying in this chännel. it is bad form! 01:50:33 This equation is rediculous! 01:51:37 * boily mapoles Lilax again 01:51:46 no mocking equations' feelings! 01:52:07 1/(x-1)+1/(x-2)+1/(x-3)=1/(x-4)-1 01:53:21 I wonder 01:53:28 > 1/(x-1)+1/(x-2)+1/(x-3)=1/(x-4)-1 01:53:30 :1:24: parse error on input ‘=’ 01:53:33 nop 01:53:42 I can't lambda the bot 01:57:03 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:58:37 -!- roasted42 has joined. 01:59:02 @metar CYUL 01:59:03 CYUL 150100Z 34005KT 15SM SKC M17/M20 A3029 RMK SLP261 02:01:03 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:04:00 -!- Tritonio has joined. 02:04:05 -!- burper has joined. 02:04:06 -!- burper has left. 02:04:07 I want to talk about Dark matter , Strange matter and other stuff at school but no one knows what I'm talking about 02:06:00 Lilax: the joke is that e^x = x has no solutions hth 02:06:01 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 02:06:24 * oerjan now wonders about complex numbers 02:06:28 I know 02:08:38 Lets solve for x 02:08:45 Of that equation 02:09:15 tricky 02:11:17 I'm trying 02:11:24 * Lilax overheats 02:11:43 -!- skj3gg has joined. 02:16:14 a+ib=e^a*cos(b) + i*e^a*sin(b) 02:16:57 a/e^a = cos(b), b/e^a = sin(b) 02:18:13 oerjan: dude, don't you know that one theorem? 02:18:27 The function f(x) = e^x - x takes on every value except for at most one. 02:18:28 i may have known it at one time 02:18:36 well that yes 02:18:51 You just have to show that the excluded value isn't 0. 02:18:53 problem is, 0 could still be that one 02:19:03 or there could be _no_ excluded value 02:19:14 Of course, if there's no excluded value, then there's a root. 02:19:56 I guess I have no idea how to show that the excluded value isn't 0. 02:20:01 So is there really no answer? 02:20:10 e^x - x has exactly two roots, if I remember right. 02:20:20 Lilax: there is no answer for real numbers, because e^x > x always 02:20:31 x^e = e 02:20:35 euh 02:20:40 tswett: well they would have to be in pairs 02:20:47 Right. Complex conjugates. 02:21:03 Lilax: e isn't a variable, it's the number 2.718281828... 02:21:09 x^e = e means x is the eth root of e. 02:22:15 oh hum 02:22:31 er no 02:22:37 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:22:57 Yes the e is a number variable in that sense 02:23:01 -!- boily has quit (Quit: MITIGATED CHICKEN). 02:23:06 > exp(exp(-1)) -- that one is easily solved anyway 02:23:08 1.444667861009766 02:23:15 http://i.imgur.com/kP3Wn2W.png This is what happens when you leave me in charge of mandelbrot generating :( 02:23:35 CrazyM4n: THE FOOLS 02:23:39 SHOW THEM ALL 02:23:54 * oerjan should check if girl genius has updated 02:24:15 -!- roasted42 has joined. 02:25:50 oh still another paper doll 02:30:30 Paper doll? 02:30:48 http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php 02:33:11 they're doing an intermission between volumes with paper dolls of several characters, which is a little annoying since the last volume ended on a cliffhanger 02:33:14 -!- mitchs has quit (Quit: mitchs). 02:34:44 reminds me of Kisekae set system. 02:35:33 omg cats 02:36:16 well there's only one cat character, but he's getting all of today's page 02:43:38 -!- mitchs has joined. 02:44:42 http://i.imgur.com/puFdPvr.png some fractal geek would probably be able to tell me what happened :P 02:45:27 hmm 02:45:43 Well, geek is my name 02:45:59 What happened there is called rasterization 02:48:46 i don't think he's referring to that, GeekDude 02:49:14 well he did summon geek 02:50:20 CrazyM4n: showing your code might have better odds hth 02:50:32 (i do know what the formula for mandelbrot _should_ be) 02:50:34 https://gist.github.com/CrazyM4n/5f1f962a39486f3e2baa 02:50:42 ignore the defines 02:50:52 they are irrelevant lol 02:50:58 argh C++ 02:51:08 it's gross I know 02:51:51 I can't, for the life of me, figure out the problem. it should work, but it just *doesn't* 02:52:09 I guess it's still really cool tho so I'm not too mad 02:53:13 >=2? isn't the standard >4? 02:53:51 CrazyM4n: the last thisComplex in thisComplex = lastComplex * lastComplex + thisComplex; should be the _starting_ thisComplex hth 02:54:07 oh damn you're right 02:54:40 so this is like a mandelbrot fractal with an evolving seed. coooool 02:54:54 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:55:44 CrazyM4n: that's like the fibonacci of mandelbrots :P 02:56:59 -!- roasted42 has joined. 02:57:06 GeekDude: it's real^2 + imaginary^2 >4, but abs also takes square root 02:57:36 which btw is a little inefficient 02:57:57 a^2 + b^2 == c^2, and sqrt(4) is 2, so... 02:58:02 it checks out 02:58:18 and I have some optimizations to make to my assembly ¬_¬ 02:58:44 wait, because of this? 02:59:13 woohoo it works now 02:59:18 thanks oerjan :D 02:59:18 yay! 02:59:23 oerjan: I wrote a mandelbrot renderer in assembly 02:59:35 now I have a darn off-by-one error to fix somewhere 03:01:16 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:09:40 -!- CrazyM4n has quit (Quit: i'll be back). 03:19:31 -!- dts|pokeball has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:28:29 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:42:39 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:44:13 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:45:56 -!- roasted42 has joined. 04:16:29 oerjan: http://i.imgur.com/RY9wjd2.png (Not my assembly version) 04:16:46 That was a mandelbrot render where I redid one of the constants (I forget which) 04:17:11 Reminds me vaguely of some kind of animal 04:18:49 the red fuzzy two-headed toad 04:19:44 -!- dianne_ has joined. 04:19:52 -!- dianne has quit (Disconnected by services). 04:19:54 -!- dianne_ has changed nick to dianne. 04:23:02 -!- CrazyM4n has joined. 04:23:31 -!- bb010g has joined. 04:26:32 wot 04:31:37 -!- nys has quit (Quit: quit). 04:34:16 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:35:59 -!- roasted42 has joined. 04:43:31 [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41683&oldid=41682 * Oerjan * (-17) /* External resources */ Wayback 04:49:56 i _could_ add the modern avida homepage which is in a completely different place; this won't help with the fact that the esolang's own specification is absent. 04:51:11 (and the link that once was there hasn't been preserved on wayback) 04:51:54 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 04:53:14 Mmm XML parsing documents were an absolute waste of my day 05:04:43 [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41684&oldid=41683 * Oerjan * (+335) explain sorry state; although found something in the old forum 05:07:33 [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41685&oldid=41684 * Oerjan * (+20) Some tense changes seem in order 05:15:04 gnight 05:19:02 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:20:59 -!- roasted42 has joined. 05:32:54 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…). 05:33:12 Yaay off by one errors 05:33:40 My program is really picky about when it wants to offset everything by one 05:33:46 It depends on what input you use 05:34:08 If it's not in the perfect range it spits in your face 05:35:26 is this the same program from the gist? 05:35:59 I've fixed it up a ton but yeah 05:38:26 hm wild guess could it be that floating point errors cause it to sometimes get slightly < xRight and sometimes slightly > xRight, or similar for y? 05:38:53 such that it is unpredictable whether it includes ~ xRight or not 05:39:24 See, that's what I thought originally 05:39:30 But changing it to <= doesn't help 05:39:48 And this is nowhere near the range that I should start having floating point errors on doubles 05:39:50 um it wouldn't help if you were right either 05:40:05 ? 05:40:24 or well hm 05:40:37 how do the off-by-one errors manifest? 05:40:53 https://gist.github.com/CrazyM4n/3e8214a45d89f89f79b1 This is what I have right now 05:41:11 And what happens is that occasionally it'll just generate one too little pixel per row 05:41:19 And in turn it skews the whole image 05:42:11 well that could be explained by floating point error as i said. and <= wouldn't help. 05:42:39 unless xStep is a power of 2, you _will_ get some errors. 05:42:49 If it was floating point error, it wouldn't be so reliably wrong though, would it? 05:43:03 well it would be realiable per image... 05:43:08 As in, it when it's skewed, no rows have the occasional correct pixel 05:43:11 *pixel count 05:43:33 no, that's as expected, because in each row the x variables are exactly the same 05:44:19 it's not a non-deterministic error 05:44:35 Oh, I see what you're saying 05:44:44 I get it now 05:44:47 it depends only on the relationship of xLeft, xRight and xStep 05:45:28 That's quite a problem 05:45:38 CrazyM4n: http://i.imgur.com/RY9wjd2.png 05:45:43 Goodnight 05:45:51 i suggest perhaps using an integer counter and multiplying instead 05:45:54 Also, that was a mandelbrot render gone awry ;) 05:46:00 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 05:46:08 or at least using an integer counter to test for stopping 05:46:35 oerjan: I could also go the cheap way, and just introduce the same floating point error in the xPixels 05:46:45 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:47:15 CrazyM4n: oh actually you could use the ugly trick haskell uses for floating Enums 05:47:39 real < xRight + xStep / 2 05:48:00 it is precisely for preventing this sort of thing 05:48:27 That's terribly ugly. Disgusting, even! 05:48:33 (I'm using it.) 05:48:46 -!- roasted42 has joined. 05:50:19 Aaaand still broken. This time it's generating an extra pixel though. 05:50:26 bah 05:50:33 lol 05:50:40 change + to - :P 05:51:17 haskell ranges are meant to be inclusive 05:51:21 I don't get how that'd work but whatever, I'm trying it anyway 05:51:49 Oh... wow 05:52:11 It worked perfectly 05:52:16 yay 05:52:29 That was such an elegantly lazy solution I'm honestly kind of taken aback 05:54:21 I'm going to go to sleep, thanks for that though :P 05:54:28 you're welcome :) 05:54:59 Gnight 05:55:04 -!- CrazyM4n has left ("aaaa"). 06:04:25 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 06:10:56 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:30:31 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:31:45 -!- roasted42 has joined. 06:34:12 [wiki] [[ComeFrom]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41686&oldid=35584 * DDR * (+207) Added note about ComeFrom 2. 06:38:39 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:43:11 -!- vanila has joined. 06:46:36 -!- roasted42 has joined. 06:54:23 -!- roasted42 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:57:23 [wiki] [[ComeFrom2]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41687 * DDR * (+1524) Added a very brief page on CFL2. 07:23:31 -!- Lilax has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:30:29 Oh I forgot about Krosp... will there be a real comic this week? 07:31:49 well krosp _was_ the last character to have a role in the play 07:32:36 oh hm 07:32:43 the stepmother 07:33:10 (played by gkika i think) 07:33:23 -!- zzo38 has joined. 07:33:39 nah, she was done before the daughters 07:34:27 wait no 07:35:13 * int-e is confused about the number of characters now. 07:37:54 you're right, of course. 07:38:46 and how could I forget the quilting bees 07:38:50 heh 07:42:35 i think she's the only major character left 07:43:26 unless they're going to do clanks and servants 07:44:19 I hope not 07:44:30 we might not see a new story arc till next year... 07:44:40 -!- qwertyo has joined. 07:45:12 fiendish 07:59:47 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:01:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: ZZZZ). 08:08:07 -!- glguy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:13:50 -!- glguy has joined. 08:24:37 -!- shikhin has joined. 08:24:40 -!- shikhin has quit (Changing host). 08:24:40 -!- shikhin has joined. 09:10:13 -!- qwertyo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:15:30 I have several ideas about programming language to make up rule of Magic: the Gathering and other stuff, which now I think can be called RULECARD. You can tell me if it look OK to you, if you have other idea about it, etc. One thing would be: You do not need to declare a string to add it to a pool; it is added automatically if used where a string belonging to that pool is expected, but the pool itself must still be declared. 09:17:52 When defining a data type, you can declare it as final. If declared as final, all declarations of that type must be equivalent; otherwise they don't have to be and all are put together, however in such a case none of the declarations of the type are allowed to be final. String pools are never final, the integer type is always final, and some but not all built-in types are final. 09:19:20 Host types should also always be final. 09:20:01 zzo38: I've wondered about such a language before. 09:20:35 It's hard to figure out what you mean without some context about yoru idea for the language. 09:21:47 Host types would be definable using host macros, and are opaque to everything else in the program. Host macros can be defined in an external file, and are not considered a part of the rules of the game, and are only needed to implement the game on a computer. If you are playing the game without a computer, host macros are unimportant and are not needed. 09:24:26 shachaf: Well, I don't have a lot of context really, but I would think it would resemble a kind of strongly typed Lisp. 09:28:18 http://darksky.slac.stanford.edu/simulations/ds14_a/ wat 09:29:44 shachaf: What things are you saying is hard exactly, what question you have, I can try to answer it more specifically? 09:40:17 -!- APic has joined. 09:41:13 31TB? Must be heavily compressed 09:41:32 Hi 09:41:53 Is there already a C-to-Brainfuck-Compiler out there? 09:42:01 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:42:19 (/g 58 09:42:21 ww 09:42:33 c2bf compiles a little bit of C. 09:45:54 -!- Lymia has joined. 09:45:57 Ok, so probably it would be worth writing an LLVM-Backend like Emscriptem 09:46:09 I will add that to my .plan 09:46:28 (Could take some Months/Years until i get to it, but hey… better than no Plan ;-)) 09:46:35 * APic structured Procrastinator 09:57:44 ais523 had a gcc backend for it 09:57:51 `relcome APic 09:58:04 ​APic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 10:01:11 I have heard that LLVM doesn't optimize brainfuck codes particularly well because it wasn't designed to do so. Additional optimizers might be written though, that would allow codes compiled from brainfuck to work better, possibly. 10:03:37 hthere was a good blog post about brainfuck optimization 10:03:46 their idea was to add new bytecode instrucitons to handle optimizations 10:04:06 I think that's a good start, then trying to go higher level by doing analysis of the code 10:09:27 elliott: Thanks 10:40:26 -!- mihow has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:42:38 -!- mihow has joined. 10:55:24 How to make the program to optimize a .XM music file by combining, splitting, rearranging, and changing patterns in the file? 10:59:30 First it should unroll all loops and put all rows into one large list, with a song repeat point somewhere inside of the list, and then what next? 11:12:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:15:15 -!- boily has joined. 11:43:36 I wonder if it’s a thing to create a pipe and then forkexec with an arg that points the program at the relevant pipe fd to grab its output, when that must stay independent of stdout and stderr. 11:43:41 -!- hjulle has joined. 11:48:32 Melvar: yes, that is a thing 11:48:46 Melvar: you can use either a filename or a file descriptor name 11:49:22 Melvar: just make sure to keep your close-on-exec flags straight and close unnecessary handles in the parent process, or else you'll leak file descriptors which can cause undesirable side effects like missing EOFs or worse 11:49:37 [ 'hello' 11:49:38 b_jonas: hello 11:49:42 I was thinking like passing /proc/self/fd/42 . 11:49:51 Or whatever fd you happen to get. 11:49:52 Melvar: if it helps, j-bot here ^ passes a file descriptor number 11:49:55 ^prefixes 11:49:55 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot ! 11:50:47 from the bot parent process to each interpreter process, in a command-line argument 11:51:15 I meant without the child process being set up to do this. 11:51:33 Melvar: you can try it even without 11:51:54 Melvar: recent versions of bash actually have some helping syntax for this: 11:51:56 Just using /proc/self/fd/ to point it at a file descriptor one has made sure to leave open. 11:52:23 `` echo <(echo Hi!) 11:52:24 ​/dev/fd/63 11:52:41 `` cat <(echo Hi!) 11:52:42 Hi! 11:53:00 Oh, that actually does that. Nice. 11:53:05 instead of explicitly giving file descriptor numbers like ( someprogram --magical_fd=6 6 `` help coproc # hmm 11:56:14 coproc: coproc [NAME] command [redirections] \ Create a coprocess named NAME. \ \ Execute COMMAND asynchronously, with the standard output and standard \ input of the command connected via a pipe to file descriptors assigned \ to indices 0 and 1 of an array variable NAME in the executing shell. \ The default NAME is "COPROC 12:07:53 -!- Tritonio has joined. 12:19:10 -!- boily has quit (Quit: MALIGNANT CHICKEN). 12:36:15 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:16:46 -!- drdanmaku has joined. 13:32:01 -!- TieSleep has changed nick to TieSoul. 13:32:08 hi 13:34:40 hi 13:39:39 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 13:59:07 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:04:56 -!- Lilax has joined. 14:05:15 OK so calculus 2 end of course exam today 14:05:21 I am going to fail 14:06:47 why?? 14:08:36 Because I only know calc 1 14:08:50 and the second course is a lot harder 14:09:09 I didn't Take that class but still they make me ;-; 14:10:17 Also it starts at 7 in the morning so I'm gonna be half dead 14:13:07 get to bed early] 14:13:39 Its 6 am right now and I'm on the bus 14:13:48 Headed towards school 14:13:54 oh no :*( 14:14:01 Anyways 14:14:15 Atleast multiple choice is an option 14:15:08 Anyways 14:15:20 Bye o/ 14:15:49 bye] 14:28:41 GL 14:30:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:50:43 -!- FreeFull has joined. 14:57:07 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:57:22 $ ghc -ignore-dot-ghci -XSafe Unsafe.hs -e "uc 'a' :: Int" 14:57:25 97 15:02:50 shachaf: tell me more? 15:21:51 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:22:12 -!- GeekDude has joined. 15:28:32 shachaf: this is not fair. I *know* that unsafeCoerce is sufficient for unsafePerformIO so I need to know whether this works in lambdabot. 15:29:11 int-e: Not sure if I should tell people details right away since it's a security bug. 15:29:21 But I guess you'd be one of the people affected... 15:30:26 I'd be happy to know whether this relies on some particular extension or library that I could disable. 15:31:38 or whether it comes down to pulling the plug on @run 15:31:56 I thought the whole thing was in a sandbox anyway? 15:32:39 It's a VPS that nothing else is running on. I'm not too keen on reinstalling that from scratch. 15:32:51 I wonder whether anyone other than lambdabot relies on SafeHaskell. 15:36:21 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: brb). 15:36:27 there may be some web services 15:40:51 -!- lambdabot has joined. 15:42:59 And I guess you're right, I should add an actual sandbox layer. 15:43:20 run lambdabot inside HackEgo hth 15:45:02 `` ghc --version 15:45:03 bash: ghc: command not found 15:49:25 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:51:09 -!- GeekDude has changed nick to GeekAfk. 16:10:33 -!- GeekAfk has changed nick to GeekDude. 16:33:31 -!- Lilax has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 16:40:44 -!- SopaXorzTaker has changed nick to r820t. 16:40:59 -!- shikhin has joined. 17:02:34 -!- r820t has changed nick to SopaXorzTaker. 17:02:52 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:13:54 -!- Tritonio has joined. 17:24:25 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 17:28:29 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:39:48 -!- S1 has joined. 17:49:08 -!- aloril_ has joined. 17:49:49 -!- S1 has changed nick to S0. 17:51:57 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:57:27 -!- woe has joined. 18:00:05 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 18:03:42 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:06:22 -!- Tritonio_ has changed nick to Tritonio. 18:13:41 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:17:21 -!- woe has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:19:28 -!- woe has joined. 18:24:36 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 18:26:27 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:27:12 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:31:23 -!- Tritonio_ has changed nick to Tritonio. 18:32:23 -!- S0 has changed nick to S1. 18:55:45 when creating a new language article on the wiki, should one use the year the language was designed or the current year (year it was first published)? 19:14:49 -!- MoALTz has joined. 19:18:27 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:51:14 <`^_^v> as someone who has used the wiki upwards of 5 times, i would say "who cares" 19:54:03 I say you should put the year in unix time 20:10:44 -!- ^v has joined. 20:15:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:22:48 "head is a mistake! It should not be in the Prelude. Other partial Prelude functions you should almost never use include tail, init, last, and (!!). From this point on, using one of these functions on a homework assignment will lose style points!" 20:23:00 O_o That's an ... interesting assertion. 20:25:30 -!- bb010g has joined. 20:31:24 lol 20:32:08 i dont know how people expect to use total functions all the time in a language wthout dependent types or similar 20:32:32 you can't express enough in the haskell type system to stick to that doctrine 20:42:04 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 20:42:45 J_Arcane: that sounds a bit dogmatic 20:46:08 > init . tails $ [1,2,3] 20:46:10 [[1,2,3],[2,3],[3]] 20:46:17 -!- nys has joined. 20:46:19 > init . tails $ [] 20:46:21 [] 20:46:43 > tails . init $ [1,2,3] 20:46:45 [[1,2],[2],[]] 20:47:23 vanila: well I was trying to make a point that "init" and "tail" can be used as building blocks of total functions. 20:47:46 > tail . inits $ [1,2,3] -- there's this counterpart, too. 20:47:47 [[1],[1,2],[1,2,3]] 20:48:02 > inits . tails $ "qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm" 20:48:04 [[],["qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm"],["qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm","wertyuiopa... 20:48:32 > (>>= init . tails) . tail . inits $ [1,2,3] 20:48:33 [[1],[1,2],[2],[1,2,3],[2,3],[3]] 20:48:38 haha 20:48:39 cool 20:49:45 I would agree that (!!) tends to be a special purpose operator 20:50:29 > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1) !! 10 20:50:30 55 20:50:47 > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1) 20:50:51 [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,... 20:52:15 (mainly because when find yourself using !! a lot, lists are probably the wrong data structure to use) 21:10:02 Bugger it. I am too fucking braindead to do this homework right now. My brain keeps running in circles. 21:14:38 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 21:14:51 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 21:14:59 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TrudyWordzvqxsgm * New user account 21:15:03 [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Abuse filter * blocked [[User:TrudyWordzvqxsgm]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Automatically blocked by abuse filter. Description of matched rule: first edit is to user page and contains spambot-like use of br tag 21:20:25 br tag?? 21:20:38 I know my rights and the BR tag is one of hem 21:28:44 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1). 21:31:11 oh lord, I see by a peek ahead to HW4 that my friend the binary tree comes back to visit again. 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http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41688&oldid=41687 * DDR * (+2892) Added missing list of operators. 23:19:38 -!- Effilry has joined. 23:21:14 -!- Effilry has quit (Changing host). 23:21:14 -!- Effilry has joined. 23:21:41 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 23:21:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:22:10 -!- variable has joined. 23:22:10 -!- variable has quit (Changing host). 23:22:11 -!- variable has joined. 23:22:32 -!- boily has joined. 23:22:50 -!- Effilry has changed nick to FireFly. 23:23:32 -!- paul2520 has joined. 23:23:49 -!- paul2520 has changed nick to Guest36177. 23:27:51 -!- heroux has quit (Changing host). 23:27:51 -!- heroux has joined. 23:28:42 -!- supay has quit (Changing host). 23:28:42 -!- supay has joined. 23:40:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:40:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit). 23:40:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:40:34 when creating a new language article on the wiki, should one use the year the language was designed or the current year (year it was first published)? 23:40:56 year of design obviously, brainfuck's in [[Category:1993]] rather than 200whatever 23:55:37 -!- LordCreepity has joined. 23:56:13 -!- LordCreepity has quit (Client Quit).