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00:12:02 <Tritonio> http://www.spoj.com/SHORTEN/problems/MB2/
00:12:13 <Zefphex> Ah yes gmail the only email I only ever bother checking every other decade
00:12:29 <Zefphex> next time I check it will be when I'm 20
00:12:51 <Tritonio> can someone tell me how this can be solved with 12 chars when just to create the constant number 10 you need 10 chars?
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00:14:50 <elliott> you don't need to care about 10
00:15:08 <Tritonio> but the input ends with that char and if you "," after the end of input it just hangs.
00:15:45 <elliott> most bf implementations don't behave that way
00:16:01 <Tritonio> they return chr(0)? i'll try again with that assumption.
00:16:27 <elliott> I just solved it in 10 in vim.
00:16:36 <mitchs> you can look at the source of bff ( http://swapped.cc/#!/bff ), or there are other ways to find out too
00:16:59 <Tritonio> thanks i'll check the source and see how it behaves.
00:17:20 <mitchs> also, ideone uses most of the same language versions, so you can do tests there
00:17:44 <elliott> actually maybe my solution is 11, but whatever.
00:18:18 <mitchs> if you want me to tell you the EOF behavior, i also don't mind just saying it :p
00:18:58 <Tritonio> mitchs no thanks I'll figure it out. :-) Cheers elliott and mitchs. :-)
00:19:26 <elliott> mitchs: is that 10 byte solution yours?
00:19:58 <elliott> mitchs: if yes, how do you deal with gur arrq gb fxvc gur ynfg vachg olgr, naq gur (cerfhzrq) arrq gb abg eha bss gur yrsg bs gur gncr?
00:20:38 <mitchs> i am confused, but pleasantly so
00:20:51 <elliott> I didn't want to spoil Tritonio.
00:21:31 <Tritonio> I'll get out for a moment elliott. brb in 10 min or so. ;-)
00:21:43 <Tritonio> first of all there are pm's lol
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00:21:57 <Tritonio> and secondly you said "didn't".
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00:22:05 <mitchs> aha, you meant you wrote it using vim, not that it's a vim solution like on anagol, of course
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00:22:41 <mitchs> well lots of poeple are tied for first place with 12 bytes, which is dictated by the EOF behavior
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00:23:54 <elliott> I forgot that Tritonio said 12 chars.
00:26:44 <mitchs> also, the standard judge on spoj works like your_output.split() == expected_out.split()
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00:54:17 <Tritonio> is it using int sized cells??? so overflows don't happen at 256? https://github.com/apankrat/bff/blob/master/bff.c
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01:00:59 <int-e> huh, why is it using -1 for eof in one case (getc for reading from stdin) and 0 in another (getc_ext for readinf from a file)?
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01:02:14 <int-e> Tritonio: it may be enough to change the type of 'v' and the math in grow()
01:03:11 <Tritonio> int-e nah I don't need an interpreter. I just wanted to see how the one in spoj.com behaves...
01:03:35 <int-e> is that the one they're using?
01:14:14 <Tritonio> solved it with 13. lets see how i can get to 12
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01:22:35 <int-e> ah, that's the trick.
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01:27:03 <int-e> and spoj is horrible with all those banners. (I usually use Adblock but I tried that site with fresh profile...)
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01:35:34 <Tritonio> int-e just found the solution too. spoj was counting the emptyspace too apparently... :-)
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01:57:49 <Zefphex> Tritonio: I do indeed with one of the bots had a regex replacer
02:00:15 <boily> fungot: do you even replace?
02:00:16 <fungot> boily: i mean, hell: making a really simple idea, but unpractical with the fnord
02:00:18 <zzo38> Have you written a program to compile SQL codes into native codes or any other VM codes?
02:00:27 <boily> Tritonio: too impratical. it has fnord.
02:01:20 <zzo38> SQLite can compile into its own VM codes if the schema (and possibly analysis data) is known, therefore other program could use the EXPLAIN command in SQLite to use a partially compiled code to compile into something else.
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04:45:19 <Elizaveta> The chat... *dramatic pause* ... HAS DIED!
04:46:22 <zzo38> I am not quite so sure.
04:50:26 <zzo38> I wanted to make up some Magic: the Gathering cards based on some stuff in my "level20.tex" story, and related things I have done; I already have "Kjugobe's Timer".
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04:51:24 <zzo38> Then you must learn. How many things have you failed to heard of?
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05:08:16 <Elizaveta> Imagine if the newtons laws of motion went like this every thing has an equal and unequal reaction So if you punched a wall it would push you back with the force of a speeding truck
05:09:07 <elliott> "Imagine punching somebody so hard that they turned into a door. Then you found out that’s where ALL doors come from, and you got initiated into a murder club that makes doors. The stronger you punch, the better the door. So there are like super strong murderers who punch people into Venetian doors and shit."
05:10:30 <Jafet> Nonsense. One does not simply punch into more doors.
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05:47:00 <Lilax> Did you just explain the Door Lords from Adventure Time?
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05:49:03 <Lilax> maybe that's another power they have
05:49:05 <Lilax> And since each door comes with a key, all the magic keys they have are from doors they made by punching people
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06:00:49 <Lilax> There are probably really powerful ones out there with a huge bounty on their heads because of how many people they've taken down and how much they've stolen, and they have crazy, hard to open doors
06:01:32 <elliott> just be sneaky by punching people into trap doors
06:01:37 <elliott> also, what a great line for oerjan to join on
06:02:14 <Lilax> they're the real door lords
06:02:22 <Lilax> and nobody can catch them
06:02:31 <Lilax> Because they are door lords
06:02:33 <elliott> beats pan lords, I suppose
06:03:18 <Lilax> I'm sorry for doing this to you oerjan
06:03:29 <oerjan> 's ok i mostly blame elliott
06:04:34 <Lilax> So like how was your day All persons available
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06:59:23 <oerjan> @tell boily -!- boily has quit (Quit: TRIGOTILLECTOMIC CHICKEN). <-- that's not a word, now you're just cheating tdnh
07:06:37 <oerjan> <Zefphex> J_Arcane_: is your nick registered if so Set enforce and the ghost anyone using it <-- usually it's not someone else using it, but themselves disconnecting and reconnecting, and the old nick not being released fast enough
07:07:09 <oerjan> tl;dr: some people have crappy connections
07:08:01 <Jafet> `` sed -i 's/M/Trigotillectomic M/' wisdom/boily
07:08:04 * oerjan suspect "themselves" is ungrammatical in that sentence but doesn't know a better way
07:08:13 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
07:13:17 <elliott> oerjan: it parses okay to me
07:13:21 <elliott> a little awkward maybe but eh
07:13:29 <elliott> okay I should sleep actually
07:14:19 <oerjan> it seems i and elliott are currently maximally out of phase
07:15:23 <oerjan> which means my sleeping schedule is currently "normal"
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08:01:39 <Lilax> How's your day goin'
08:02:47 <oerjan> you do not have clearance for that information hth
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08:07:07 <AndoDaan> oerjan, when somebody uses the /// here, does that automatically corrected in the log?
08:08:48 <Lilax> [/1] then [//2] for the 2 / that are displayed
08:09:09 <Lilax> I used three /'s to make 2
08:09:20 <AndoDaan> I'm just wonder if there's any functionality to using on here ///, or if it's just visual.
08:10:27 <Lilax> it shows // instead of ///
08:10:45 <Lilax> the [/1] is the command / for irc
08:11:03 <Lilax> and its not listed in logs since its only pinging the server from your client
08:11:16 <Lilax> so nah it only shows //
08:11:44 <Lilax> [/]// makes the first one invisible to logs
08:12:36 <AndoDaan> Just to make sure, I mean the http://esolangs.org/wiki//// sense of ///
08:14:43 <Lilax> the s/word/replace/
08:14:52 <Lilax> Ye don't most bots have that
08:15:01 <Lilax> Except everybot here
08:15:15 <AndoDaan> Yeah. Your "probably not" probably still stands.
08:15:46 <Lilax> Well if we had something to test it
08:16:07 <Lilax> Doesn't fungot have one?
08:16:07 <fungot> Lilax: obviously there's the business of writing out let but in a different language to allow it to render outside the box? totally awesome.
08:16:13 <zzo38> I don't think [/1] is a IRC command?
08:16:56 <Lilax> which results in //
08:17:44 <zzo38> Once I was on some IRC that did automatically correct people who typed s/whatever/whatever/ but it annoyed both me and whoever I was trying to communicate with; he had control over that bot so he disabled it.
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08:19:32 <Lilax> s/example/example/r/ on the bot I used replaced everything and would litterally spam all replaced words for that month
08:19:43 <AndoDaan_> I just thought maybe it could allow a user to make a quick ninja edit to mispelled sent chat line.
08:19:52 <Lilax> I used litterally and probably spekt it wrong
08:20:37 <Lilax> you mean a replacer bot?
08:20:44 <zzo38> I don't like the automatic fix (especially raw logs shouldn't automatic fix) it can cause problems if used improperly and that stuff
08:20:52 <oerjan> AndoDaan: no, the bots do not.
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08:21:21 <Lilax> s/stuff/thing bot: Lilax meant to say Things and stuff
08:21:28 <AndoDaan_> Alright. I don't know why these type of questions pop in my mind.
08:21:45 <oerjan> Lilax: we had such a bot here a while ago.
08:22:06 <oerjan> it wasn't related to the logs, though.
08:22:13 <Lilax> Is that what you meant?
08:22:33 <Lilax> Or do you want a bot that corrects misspellings in the logs
08:22:43 <Lilax> that would be improbable
08:23:01 <Lilax> atleast almost impossible
08:23:37 <oerjan> only the logging bot itself could do that. also we have (at least) two of those.
08:24:13 <Lilax> Since if I were to say sinfe the bot would have to figure out how many times I want that sinfe to be since then what would it do if I said sinfe two times but wanted it to correct it once
08:24:14 <zzo38> You could also download it and then use a local program to perform the corrections
08:24:29 <Lilax> but that takes tiiiime
08:24:59 <oerjan> and it would in any case not change the fact that everyone actually present will have _already seen the original_
08:26:12 <AndoDaan_> It might be cool to write something at would tried to interpret any and all possible esoteric code snippits found in the chat.
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08:34:29 <zzo38> I want to write IRC bot using C and SQLite. I don't have time right now but may do with in a week. Do you like this, or do you hate this, or both or neither? What is your opinion what you would want such thing doing? What question/complaint please?
08:36:02 <Lilax> Its your choice we Support ye
08:36:16 <zzo38> Yes I know, but I also just wanted to know if other people have opinion about it.
08:36:48 <zzo38> The money is not required; I do it for free.
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08:39:01 <zzo38> If the database contains no triggers then it would just send the NICK/USER/PASS/JOIN/MODE commands at the start and then make a log of everything it receives in the database (with one record per message received), but if you add triggers then you can make it to do different kind of stuff instead of or in addition to logging, such as to make up a chess game.
08:39:33 <zzo38> Does this seems like properly to you?
08:42:15 <AndoDaan> Anything other than logging would have to be implemented by you. The user couldn't do anything then set and send triggers?
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08:47:07 <zzo38> Triggers would be included in the database schema; that is how SQL works.
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08:53:39 <Andodaan> Any risk of memory leakage, or unsanitary data with using C SQLite?
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09:24:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: probably like, but I probably want to make an irc but myself eventually, to rewrite my ugly bots to a sane structure.
09:25:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: i have a mostly sane proof of concept implementation that handles all that server extension stuff that lets me follow who is logged in as what nickserv account,
09:25:43 <b_jonas> which I'll eventually need when I rewrite the cbstream bot (I use the codename "cbvapor" for the rewrite)
09:26:39 <b_jonas> but I want to rewrite that initial implementation because it sucks, especially the way it's hardwired to work only with SASL login.
09:27:06 <b_jonas> plus I want to make the framework work (with reduced functionality) on irc networks other than freenode.
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10:15:52 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/i8YO5Bpq
10:16:42 <b_jonas> does ARM still count as a RISC cpu by the way? I knew it started as RISC, but since then they've added all kinds of nonsense extra instructions and modes that I'm not sure it still is one
10:17:08 <b_jonas> mind you, it still seems to have fewer hindering historical cruft on it than x86
10:17:32 <Jafet> That's because it's accumulating the historical cruft right now
10:17:44 <Jafet> Be patient and give it another ten years
10:18:00 <b_jonas> x86 had more of a head start (it started with z80 and whatever that other cpu is)
10:18:17 <b_jonas> ARM certainly has at least _some_ historical cruft too
10:18:42 <b_jonas> some of it quite similar to x86 actually: a flags register that has both arithmetic result status flags and processor mode control flags
10:19:17 <b_jonas> why does that always have to be the same register?
10:20:16 <Jafet> Why would you use more than one register for that
10:20:23 <b_jonas> (maybe so that it can be saved on the stack together in interrupt routines, but still, there's probably less need for that in ARM)
10:20:50 <jameseb> b_jonas: would you rather they kept the flags in the program counter like they used to in older versions of ARM?
10:20:56 <b_jonas> Jafet: because it leads to nonsense like that writing (restoring) the flags register is a privilaged instruction even though you want to do it just to restore arithmetic flags
10:21:38 <b_jonas> jameseb: I don't know really.
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10:22:17 <mroman_> /0>\ is obviously probably the simplest program
10:22:22 <jameseb> I can see your point though, having access to arithmetic flags would make sense
10:22:30 <b_jonas> Jafet: and you can't just write a new value to the status register usually, but only by modifying an existing value, because it has flags you mustn't modify
10:22:34 <Jafet> The ISA lets you set the arithmetic flags directly as well.
10:23:12 <b_jonas> I'm not giving an opinion now on whether there should be an arithmetic status flags register in first place, I'm just saying, if there is one, it should be separate from control flags
10:23:47 <b_jonas> just look at the MOS 6502 which does it right:
10:24:18 <b_jonas> there's an interrupt disable flag, but it's not in the status flags register
10:25:32 <Jafet> It doesn't really matter since it's not a real register anyway, it's just a bunch of bits that happen to be listed in one register for convenience
10:25:33 <mroman_> (besides /\ which just idles around)
10:25:46 <b_jonas> and given how on ARM, fewer instructions modify the flags register, and it has shadow registers for modes like the z80, it wouldn't even be essential to save it automatically when entering an interrupt
10:26:14 <b_jonas> unlike in the x86 where most instructions mess up the flags
10:26:28 <mroman_> //>\0\ should scan until it reaches a non zero cell, set it to zero and continue
10:36:10 <Jafet> .oO( Ubuntu 2025 "Faulty Fly" for armeb64, now with Jazelle-accelerated systemd! )
10:42:26 <b_jonas> mroman: so wait, what's this?
10:42:50 <Jafet> Er, s/Faulty Fly/Perfidious Pinworm/
10:43:05 <b_jonas> mroman_: is this something like bfjoust but with a way more powerful instr set?
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10:51:46 <mroman_> you have to trick your opponent into executing NUL
10:52:58 <mroman_> and programs are actually on the tape
10:53:18 <mroman_> so you can write self-replicating programs even
10:57:28 <mroman_> but I'm thinking of adding an extra cost to loops
10:57:35 <mroman_> i.e. if the jump is taken it costs you an extra cycle
10:57:40 <b_jonas> mroman_: um, is there a more complete description?
10:57:47 <mroman_> b_jonas: Not yet, but soon :)
10:58:19 <b_jonas> why aren't there proper goto/comefrom instructions, whether with immediate label or computed, rather than these stupid loops only?
10:59:02 <mroman_> because it's brainfuck like?
10:59:10 <mroman_> or supposed to be at least
10:59:50 <mroman_> suggestions are welcome If you have any
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11:57:33 <mroman_> b_jonas: technically because these just use the stack you can do computed jumps too
11:58:26 <mroman_> but it might mess up forward jumping :)
12:00:29 <boily> what was it again...
12:00:35 <lambdabot> oerjan said 5h 1m 11s ago: -!- boily has quit (Quit: TRIGOTILLECTOMIC CHICKEN). <-- that's not a word, now you're just cheating tdnh
12:01:18 <boily> @tell oerjan of couse I'm cheating! never let orthograph get in the way of a good sounding word, I say.
12:02:14 <boily> http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/S/scrozzle.html
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12:46:12 <mroman_> is there no fucking image viewer for linux that lets you display multiple images in the same window
12:46:23 <mroman_> Debian probably has 5 image viewers pre-installed and none seem to be able to do that
12:49:27 <mroman_> http://i.imgur.com/CSYstxV.jpg
12:49:32 <mroman_> I got inspired to play with image filters
12:49:47 <mroman_> but there no good image viewer has been found so far to make side-by-side comparisons
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13:04:19 <mroman_> although this filter here takes hours for 640x480pix images
13:14:47 <mroman_> jesus christ it's so slooow
13:16:44 <fizzie> mroman_: It's probably because you're supposed to do it the Unix way, and make up some sort of pipeline calling ImageMagick to put your images side-by-side.
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13:38:21 <mroman_> otherwise it's even taking too long for 256x128
13:47:57 <Jafet> Just create a HTML file with the layout you want.
13:49:20 <mroman_> now my filter runs on 8 cores
13:49:43 <Jafet> Although, debian has at least five web browsers and probably none of them have proper colour handling (then again, do any of the image viewers?)
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13:57:52 <jameseb> vanila: lambdabot works over (or did earlier)
13:58:31 <jameseb> must be just #haskell that has lambdabot broken
13:58:32 <vanila> it does not respond to #haskell
14:00:04 <mroman_> Math.pow(x,2); is apparentely faster than Math.pow(x,1)
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14:05:57 <mroman_> http://i.imgur.com/BBN78m8.png <- anyway. After minutes that what my filter did to the image
14:09:30 <mroman_> but it's somewhere in O(N^4)
14:16:40 <mroman_> for regular blur maybe, yes
14:25:38 <mroman_> but yes, Math.pow(x,2); is faster than Math.pow(x,n); for n = 1..10\2;
14:25:54 <mroman_> i.e. for Math.pow(x,n) for n = 1..10; n = 2; is the fastest one
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14:26:36 <mroman_> and by faster I mean *really faster*
14:28:18 <int-e> mroman_: what does the filter look like? I believe the standard approach for this is to do 2D FFTs, and then it should become O(log(wh)wh)
14:28:33 <int-e> that is, if you can't decompose things into box filters
14:28:44 <int-e> (which are O(wh) each)
14:29:19 <int-e> but that assumes linear filters which are shift-invariant. maybe yours isn't
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14:35:13 <mroman_> vanila: http://codepad.org/uGxDOc8L
14:35:39 <mroman_> that's how much faster Math.pow(x,2) really is
14:36:08 <vanila> i guess it's using base 2
14:39:27 <mroman_> well, using a for loop to pow is actually way faster :)
14:39:41 <mroman_> if n is an integer using a for loop is way faster than calling Math.pow
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14:40:54 <fizzie> It looks pretty clear there's a special-case for x^2.
14:43:02 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/5MZBlUjm
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14:43:53 <mroman_> well, n=4 and n=8 also take 10s
14:44:17 <mroman_> so looks like a special case for x^2
14:44:51 <int-e> perhaps there's a java benchmark that does stuff like sqrt(pow(x,2)+pow(y,2))
14:45:22 <fizzie> Aw, "public static native double pow(double a, double b);"
14:45:27 <vanila> could you try comparing pow(pow(x,2),2) against pow(x,4) ?
14:46:02 <fizzie> Java_java_lang_StrictMath_pow(JNIEnv *env, jclass unused, jdouble d1, jdouble d2) { return (jdouble) jpow((double)d1, (double)d2); } /* hmm */
14:46:29 <fizzie> Can't tell where "jpow" comes from, at least immediately.
14:46:49 <b_jonas> try to make it call a real optimized hypot
14:50:20 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/6u1ZCdYg
14:50:28 <fizzie> Don't see the ^2 special case there, but it's quite possible I missed something while skipping through.
14:50:29 <mroman_> ^- this is the fastest way to do pow so far I have found
14:50:32 <mroman_> it even beats the for loop
14:50:40 <vanila> mroman_, I have a rqeuest for compare
14:50:44 <vanila> if you can benchmark it
14:50:57 <vanila> btw I know a slightly faster algorithm for power
14:51:02 <vanila> you can use the binary expansion
14:51:20 <mroman_> Math.pow is probably not optimized for int
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14:51:54 <fizzie> Oh, right, there it is.
14:52:08 <fizzie> /* special value of y */ if(hy==0x40000000) return x*x; /* y is 2 */
14:52:11 <vanila> x^1011 = ((x^2)^2*x)^2*x
14:52:18 <mroman_> vanila: And what would that request be?
14:52:22 <vanila> could you try comparing pow(pow(x,2),2) against pow(x,4) ?
14:52:36 <vanila> rather than just pow(x,2) against pow(x,4)
14:52:51 <vanila> so the result numbers will be equal
14:53:03 <fizzie> mroman_: There's also a special case for x^0.5 to do sqrt(x). And there *should* also be a special case for 1.0, I don't know why you didn't observe that.
14:54:46 <int-e> horrible, horrible code.
14:55:21 <fizzie> It seems to be inherited from Netlib.
14:55:30 <fizzie> http://www.netlib.org/fdlibm/
14:55:59 <fizzie> Or maybe it's the other way around, I don't know. That still has Sun's copyright notices in there.
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15:00:22 <mroman_> Math.pow(Math.pow(x,2),2) := 33ms
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15:01:36 <int-e> oh my... http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/plain/src/system/libroot/posix/glibc/arch/x86/e_pow.S
15:02:03 <int-e> (hmm, why did I find a haiku link first for a glibc file, but who cares)
15:02:51 <vanila> i thought it migth just be sfaster because of smaller numbers
15:04:14 <mroman_> but yeah, generally instead of writing Math.pow(x,3); you might as well just write x*x*x instead
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15:22:55 <mroman_> either use some fancy algo or at least for loops :)
15:23:01 <mroman_> that's what I've learnt today from Math.pow
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15:46:54 <J_Arcane> http://eighty-twenty.org/2015/01/25/monads-in-dynamically-typed-languages/
15:47:37 <mroman_> how can you use such a pure concept in such an impure environment.
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15:49:08 <J_Arcane> the article demonstrates how. ;)
15:50:33 <vanila> you can use monad anywhere
15:50:53 <int-e> stacking monads on top of other things
15:51:02 <vanila> it's very intersting in scheme actually
15:51:11 <vanila> since you have SHIFT/RESET delimited continuations
15:51:16 <vanila> you can write monadic code in direct style
15:51:26 <mroman_> I like that people here still believe that I actually know what I'm talking about :p
15:51:45 <mroman_> I know the formal definition of a monad though
15:51:58 <J_Arcane> vanila: Yes, Heresy uses continuations to implement monad-like pure for/do loops.
15:52:24 <J_Arcane> I'm rather proud of them, because they are evil.
15:53:01 <mroman_> and that Functors preserve isomorphism.
15:53:08 <mroman_> I really should continue reading that book
15:53:59 <J_Arcane> I'm trying to work through REal World Haskell now, but I can't concentrate on anything. I had to close the main #haskell IRC too because every time I looked at it I just got self-conscious and depressed. XD
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16:18:45 <mroman_> J_Arcane: Yeah, #haskell is kinda that way :)
16:18:54 <mroman_> all that functor talk in here
16:19:00 <HackEgo> Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
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16:24:14 <J_Arcane> mroman_: I don't mind here, because it's not so bad as all that.
16:24:34 <vanila> does anyone recommend some simple logic programming thing which I could try?
16:24:42 <vanila> i want to have a neat example code
16:24:47 <vanila> and this logic language supports =/=
16:25:46 <J_Arcane> Watching #haskell though is like to give the impression that the only way to actually get anything done in Haskell is to have a CS Ph.D and spend all your time hacking hypermorphic pseodological type combinators of type Z-alpha-6 to work with Lenses.
16:33:39 <int-e> J_Arcane: does it? you seem to be filtering the channel differently than I do
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16:37:12 <elliott> it really isn't, unless #haskell got a lot more advanced since I left.
16:37:38 <elliott> I think you're projecting your existing preconceptions onto the channel.
16:38:15 <elliott> in my experience #haskell is 90% easy beginner questions, maybe it changed
16:38:57 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: that's wrong. you have to get a maths PhD degree. a PhD degree in CS is worthless.
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16:39:38 <J_Arcane> I see a lot of walls of theoretical talk and high-level type wizardry and so forth; really that's what I see most of the time.
16:39:48 <J_Arcane> #nothaskell is a little better, I find.
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16:40:48 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: but really, just because we talk about high-level type wizardy on the channel sometimes doesn't mean you have to know all that to write programs in haskell
16:41:06 <b_jonas> and the channel is friendly and usually helps you if you ask actual questions
16:45:58 <J_Arcane> I think it psyches me out a bit sometimes is all; I *am* in fairness a bit self-conscious about feeling 'behind' when it comes to programming in general, and with Haskell in particular that gap can be very, very apparent.
16:46:43 <vanila> J_Arcane, Why do you feel like you are behind in programming?
16:46:54 <elliott> tbf the haskell community is elitist and awful in my extensive experience
16:47:00 <vanila> yes I agree with elliott
16:47:34 <mroman_> the reverse 3-minute egg is coming
16:47:45 <J_Arcane> vanila: Because I'm 34 years old, haven't coded anything for over a decade until just within the past year. I'm effectively a newbie with a grown man's problems. :/
16:47:51 <mroman_> "ustralian chemists have figured out how to unboil egg whites"
16:48:15 <elliott> J_Arcane: at last you weren't embarrassing yourself on IRC from age 11 onwards
16:49:07 <J_Arcane> Heh. I actually stayed away from programming for years because I'd largely convinced myself I wasn't good enough on the one hand, and also hated the languages that were most popular on the other. :P
16:49:20 <J_Arcane> Also, I was a BASIC coder. So. There's that.
16:49:31 <mroman_> All popular languages suck. -- mroman
16:49:48 <elliott> one day I will destroy the #esoteric logs
16:49:55 <elliott> and nobody will remember teenage me
16:50:23 <mroman_> Aren't you technically still one?
16:51:17 <elliott> for a few more months yeah
16:51:37 <mroman_> (That was an xkcd pun btw.)
16:52:01 <elliott> oh. well. I don't care about xkcd :p
16:52:38 <mroman_> I'm gonna unboil me some eggs.
16:53:04 <vanila> all laws of physics are reversible aren'tthey
16:53:07 <J_Arcane> Growing up with your favorite language being considered a pariah only barely elevated above that of COBOL by 'serious programmers' probably leaves some scars. XD
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16:53:31 <vanila> J_Arcane, its a shame becuase its not even like other languages are any better
16:53:51 <vanila> some people mosty just repeat what they hear rather than think about it
16:54:08 <J_Arcane> Djikstra's paper casts a large shadow which many coders indeed have largely repeated verbatim for decades.
16:54:21 <vanila> I don't notice that at all
16:54:31 <vanila> i think everyone uses and recommends goto
16:54:41 <J_Arcane> Which is not to say that BASIC doesn't have some pretty large problems, just that I've been hearing about them for almost 20 years at this point ...
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17:23:57 <mroman_> I have a very good classification schema for programming languages
17:24:05 <mroman_> a.) the length of the array is part of the type
17:24:11 <mroman_> b.) the length of the array is not part of the type
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17:30:30 <mroman_> man fuck flow/float-out website menus
17:30:56 <mroman_> does CSS3 address those btw?
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17:31:39 <J_Arcane> mroman_: So, doesn't that mean both C and BASIC are equally terrible? ;)
17:32:48 <b_jonas> mroman_: what if both is possible?
17:33:09 <b_jonas> like, you know, in Haskell or C++
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17:45:25 <J_Arcane> http://worrydream.com/#!/MeanwhileAtCodeOrg
17:45:53 <vanila> I wish people did not use #!/
17:46:02 <elliott> http://worrydream.com/MeanwhileAtCodeOrg/
17:46:04 <vanila> i know im in for some web 4.0 shit
17:47:06 <elliott> "code literacy"/"everyone should program" is such an awful concept
17:47:19 <elliott> mroman_: "talking about him" is probably smoother? what' the context?
17:47:37 <mroman_> hm yeah. about sounds better. Thanks.
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18:10:44 <Melvar> mroman_: How do you classify languages which don’t have arrays?
18:11:10 <mroman_> obviously they are not languages
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18:14:13 <int-e> oh great. first they make the web unusable, then they notice that they make the web invisible to crawlers, then they "fix" it, now I just have to wait for noscript&co to catch up. https://developers.google.com/webmasters/ajax-crawling/
18:16:48 <mroman_> ah. to use the html snapshots etc?
18:17:19 <int-e> Right, just turn the #!-stuff into ?_escaped_fragment_= like google would
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18:18:00 <Melvar> mroman_: How about, arrays have the length in the type, but it is trivial to wrap them so it disappears?
18:18:25 <int-e> what about C which has some lengths in array types?
18:20:51 <elliott> int-e: tbf people have moved away from #! now that there are actual history APIs for javascri
18:21:01 <elliott> I think that google #! thing is basically a deprecated stopgap
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18:21:08 <elliott> because twitter used #! for a while or whatever and it was a disaster
18:27:18 <mroman_> obviously you should use framesets
18:27:53 <mroman_> framesets are actually exactly that
18:27:58 <mroman_> they prevent reloading the whole page
18:28:12 <mroman_> because you can just reload the content frame when you click on a link inside it
18:28:34 <mroman_> does html5 even have framesets :D?
18:29:00 <mroman_> I say we try to make CoolHTML a standard
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19:32:38 <myname> also: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6163683/cycles-in-family-tree-software
19:36:45 <int-e> I'm sure there's a perfectly innocent explanation for this.
19:37:28 <int-e> how about a) tracking historical lineages in aristrocratic families. or b) tracking lineages in a computer game.
19:45:16 <glguy> genealogical software isn't about awarding points for the best looking trees, just tracking reality. It's surprising that it didn't occur to someone writing that kind of software to handle that case
19:45:43 <glguy> but other than that it's just a zombie post
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19:52:34 <int-e> well it did occur to them
19:54:07 <int-e> Ah, English, how I hate thee.
19:55:22 <int-e> Of course "someone writing [...]" meant that particular someone, not any someone (like Bert Goethals below who clearly did consider all these things)
19:56:55 <glguy> Yeah, otherwise I'd have gone with "anyone"
19:58:31 <int-e> It's a matter of emphasis to me, and ASCII sucks at transporting that. Oh and English is not my native tongue.
19:59:55 <glguy> Also, Bert's existence ruled out the "anyone" interpretation ^_^
20:01:31 <int-e> Anyway... oh look! A butterfly!
20:04:39 -!- Patashu has joined.
20:06:38 <int-e> http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/naturelibrary/images/ic/credit/640x395/l/la/large_blue_butterfly/large_blue_butterfly_1.jpg
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20:56:27 <mroman_> I will make an ESOSC draft for CoolHTML
20:57:25 <mroman_> and maybee CoolStylesheets
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21:05:15 <mroman_> And by cooler I mean more user friendly
21:05:32 <mroman_> and by user I mean people like me
21:05:36 <nortti> and by more user friendly, you mean esoteric?
21:05:38 <mroman_> and by friendly I probably mean friendly
21:06:14 <mroman_> First of all no flash, no javascript
21:06:36 <mroman_> It's HTML focused on content
21:06:56 <nortti> how about a scripting language that only allows scripts that can be formally proven to terminate. proof has to be attached?
21:07:05 <int-e> mroman_: make sure it has a blink tag.
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21:16:13 <J_Arcane> i had the idea eaarlier while in the WC of a virtual machine built around the idea of 'everything not false is true' a la Scheme.
21:20:24 <int-e> (the blink tag should be aperiodic, to make it cool.)
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22:03:13 <mroman_> int-e: blink isn't content, so... no
22:04:47 <int-e> mroman_: you could have it display a message in morse code
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22:13:34 <int-e> oh great, that's what has been tripping me up. "`electric-indent-mode' is now enabled by default."
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22:16:44 <elliott> int-e: oh, that's an emacs change?
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22:18:56 <int-e> and I'm used to breaking lines by placing the point (^) in front of a space, "abc^ def", and then pressing enter and delete... resulting in "abc\nef" with electric-indent-mode.
22:19:33 <int-e> (of course I should rely on auto-fill-mode instead... oh well)
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23:47:35 <Sgeo> shikhin: https://www.reddit.com/r/Prismata/comments/2trg0q/in_approximately_60_minutes_at_5pm_est_well_have/
23:47:43 <Sgeo> err where's shachaf
23:49:38 <zzo38> What exactly would CoolHTML do? Might it be better to just support pod?
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