< 1422748827 343588 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it is impossible to force order in general unless your string starts with a special position marker. < 1422748832 34011 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.82.56 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah... I see. < 1422748860 821002 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.82.56 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like my BF or MNNBFSL thue interpreter would by necessity be deterministic. < 1422748879 570552 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.82.56 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't think of that at all. < 1422748887 622350 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1422749027 691908 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.82.56 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great! then I can use a deterministic implementation of Thue to implement my Markov Alg BCT code. < 1422749341 976207 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1422750936 217274 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :AndoDaan: You could classify a (deterministic) Turing machine to be a deterministic string-rewriting thing, if you consider the tape as a string (with the position of the head indicated as a special symbol, carrying the state along), and the transition function a set of rewrite rules. < 1422750945 724628 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, you have state set Q and tape alphabet T, so think of rewriting a (Q union T)*, and if there's a transition (q, t) -> (q', t', Right) then let there be a rewrite rule from "q t" to "t' q'" and so on. < 1422750950 350056 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Add some seasoning to make the tape grow as necessary.) < 1422751125 68796 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.82.56 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. Watching the code running, it looks like it too. The whole sweeping back and forth looks familiar too. < 1422751234 210390 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.82.56 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I first thought that Tag systems were closer to what string wrting is, but I'm realizing that's wrong. < 1422751365 623818 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.82.56 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now I'm realizing that I still won't be able to extend the esointerpreters chain. < 1422751395 875267 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.82.56 PRIVMSG #esoteric :DDammit, what dthe hell is Zetaplex anyway? < 1422751518 235202 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1422753439 593750 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1422753657 186181 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`danddreclist 62 < 1422753658 10168 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :danddreclist 62: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex < 1422754148 266081 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.189.82.56 QUIT :Quit: Off to find the mythical clitoris. < 1422755037 949565 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1422755038 94457 :nisstyre!~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1422755038 913041 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1422755039 57443 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54f81c-109.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1422755039 201854 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1422755040 454387 :q3k!~q3k@q3k.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1422755040 687512 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1422755041 134221 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1422755042 870384 :MDream!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1422755043 785276 :oerjan_!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1422755044 360648 :oerjan_!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no NICK :oerjan < 1422755044 864379 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ping < 1422755045 11974 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1422755045 12112 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :something tells me glogbot isn't quite well < 1422755045 683365 :olsner_!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1422755132 339458 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54f81c-109.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1422755134 876900 :q3k!~q3k@q3k.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1422755135 62884 :nisstyre!~yourstrul@li611-52.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1422755179 79792 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422755437 73719 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1422755437 832343 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1422755438 168872 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1422755438 964913 :nortti_!nortti@nano.smar.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1422755803 283502 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: How is that? < 1422755850 301752 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the log wasn't up to date < 1422755860 917140 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1422755939 936270 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1422756800 837552 :MDream!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDude < 1422757145 923593 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1422757336 937922 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1422758265 750837 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Najt < 1422758711 517121 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1422759738 786461 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca QUIT :Quit: quit < 1422762391 808193 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Bradenbest 5* 10New user account < 1422764146 171924 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Totally Accurate Malbolge14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41783 5* 03Bradenbest 5* (+1670) 10Created page < 1422764213 801627 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Bradenbest14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41784 5* 03Bradenbest 5* (+58) 10started user page < 1422764405 93335 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41785&oldid=41563 5* 03Bradenbest 5* (+43) 10/* General languages */ < 1422766039 457131 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Totally Accurate Malbolge14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41786&oldid=41783 5* 03Bradenbest 5* (+14) 10added name < 1422769172 636850 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1422779973 160001 :int-e_!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de NICK :int-e < 1422779990 416559 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-ugzfemvowfcrlpje JOIN :#esoteric < 1422780319 220447 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :*.net *.split < 1422780319 634781 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1422780319 858106 :TieSleep!~quassel@86.89.119.147 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1422780320 271745 :mitchs_!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia QUIT :*.net *.split < 1422780320 416123 :j-bot!~j-bot@li339-21.members.linode.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1422780320 729543 :blsqbot!~blsqbot@fmnssun.ibone.ch QUIT :*.net *.split < 1422780320 940268 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :*.net *.split < 1422780321 472875 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-pdkvvwhxhapdkdbg QUIT :*.net *.split < 1422780321 816899 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan QUIT :*.net *.split < 1422780322 290692 :dianne!~diannes@unaffiliated/dianne QUIT :*.net *.split < 1422780322 435215 :EgoBot!dlopen@libdl.so QUIT :*.net *.split < 1422780323 361414 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-ugzfemvowfcrlpje NICK :heroux < 1422780435 705457 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1422780488 876123 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1422780550 658839 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1422780632 392054 :EgoBot!dlopen@libdl.so JOIN :#esoteric < 1422780658 802814 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1422781361 64630 :TodPunk!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1422781384 338979 :TodPunk!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1422781476 851291 :weissschloss!~viskestel@li607-220.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1422781509 348539 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 275 seconds < 1422781614 672794 :weissschloss!~viskestel@li607-220.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1422783048 657323 :nortti_!nortti@nano.smar.fi NICK :nortti < 1422783130 789127 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi everybody. Noob question about halting problem. Am I right that it's easy to detect infinite loops in TM LBA using TM LBA with bigger tape (just to write down all states and find out if one is repeating)? If so, does it mean that halting problem exist only for TM with infinite tape? < 1422784204 58676 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1422784221 962193 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely < 1422784228 522526 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no LBA that determines whether any LBA halts, so in another sense, no < 1422784238 518808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1422784244 5784 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok by precisely I meant close enough < 1422784253 179243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :need to read questions more closely in future :p < 1422784260 643350 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Clearly, an unbounded Turing machine can determine whether any LBA halts.) < 1422784403 368393 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :This page irritates me. See if you can guess why by about half way down the page. http://www.stencyl.com/ < 1422784568 58066 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, like Scratch < 1422784782 435710 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: but bigger LBA with sufficient tape? why not? if we've got toy-level CPU with tiny registers and memory, it's easy to detect infinite loop in it and stop < 1422785076 61287 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's easy to run something on that toy CPU and wait for halt or for infitie loop detection and all that in finite time. if to track toy CPU state on the CPU with larger RAM. < 1422785368 714932 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: scratch is cool, but it's totally coding ... < 1422785382 304186 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :J_Arcane: yeah but coding is a scary word < 1422785391 869233 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doing drag-drop fill-in stuff is nothing like the typical conception of "writing code" < 1422785407 674764 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's fine. it's making it accessible to people who would be turned off by the idea of coding < 1422785559 561066 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are probably just annoyed because it's ripping off tried-and-true visual programming interfaces seen in LabView, Alice and other highly successful and productive systems < 1422785665 714630 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naw, it was just the 'Make games with no coding!' then pictures of code. < 1422785743 834608 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :PinealGlandOptic: usually the halting problem is phrased as: is there one machine M that determines whether any (suitably encoded) input machine halts < 1422785789 211018 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since there is no single LBA that works for all LBAs, this version of the halting problem is unsolvable < 1422785924 656718 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could add more memory to your LBA after you know the input size, but that just turns your LBA into a sort of Turing machine, so it's not very interesting < 1422786187 776312 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that "writing down all states" doesn't work since it doesn't use linear space, but you can probably use Floyd's or Brent's cycle detection methods. < 1422786695 443239 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Non-profit organisation name of the day http://www.astronauts4hire.org < 1422786699 920613 :^v^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1422786724 270796 :^v^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422786768 91302 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-27-51.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1422787677 35011 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1422787763 638539 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1422788584 156781 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-27-151.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1422788636 633337 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-27-151.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1422788636 777768 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1422788971 652512 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1422789022 977559 :EgoBot!dlopen@libdl.so QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1422789034 182910 :EgoBot!dlopen@libdl.so JOIN :#esoteric < 1422790904 230298 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1422791448 252828 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1422791611 953168 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hi everybody. Noob question about halting problem. Am I right that it's easy to detect infinite loops in TM LBA using TM LBA with bigger tape (just to write down all states and find out if one is repeating)? If so, does it mean that halting problem exist only for TM with infinite tape? < 1422791721 682972 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell PinealGlandOptic If you consider how that interacts with the proof of the halting problem, that is the essence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_hierarchy_theorem < 1422791721 827764 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1422791758 119774 :mitchs_!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia JOIN :#esoteric < 1422791858 13748 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell PinealGlandOptic basically, since a TM with (enough) more space can decide the halting problem for one with less, they cannot be the same computational class. < 1422791858 158633 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1422791959 411832 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1422791967 883499 :mitchs!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1422792826 710908 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422793259 176667 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and darths & droids are right right back at confounding reader expectations again < 1422793265 286593 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-right < 1422793299 943086 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-092-072-143-251.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: Terminated < 1422793358 841428 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yep < 1422793374 344072 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-092-072-143-251.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1422794407 347486 :Qfwfq!~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1422794770 176095 :Qfwfq!~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving JOIN :#esoteric < 1422795195 254523 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422796618 573816 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1422797937 979464 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-24-43.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1422797957 263053 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1422797974 235262 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-24-43.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1422797974 380219 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1422798450 713462 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: But it's possible to write a program that might use infinite space for certain inputs < 1422798469 602602 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Examples of Winter Sports activities not covered are: -- Use of Skeletons" < 1422798504 650903 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: well, duh? < 1422798519 245943 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not about arbitrary programs. < 1422798599 375357 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1422798674 264682 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1422798695 241117 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as the space is finite, it is decidable < 1422798713 867981 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the time would be exponential/superexponential probably < 1422799049 942890 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1422800332 118010 :shikhin_!~shikhin@120.57.228.224 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422800336 672861 :shikhin_!~shikhin@120.57.228.224 QUIT :Changing host < 1422800336 817589 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1422800512 605461 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1422800670 425990 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell shachaf mission accomplished *MWAHAHAHA* < 1422800670 570619 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1422800696 928451 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ghc 7.10 is being delayed, partly due to the bugs we found) < 1422800793 531841 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having a new Prelude sounds interesting < 1422800805 324222 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1422800945 991823 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still hoping for the AMP to be in full effect. < 1422800972 643463 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think the AMP is in much question < 1422801018 225083 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the removel of the haskell2010 and haskell98 packages show, it had to be done entirely or not at all. < 1422801021 815739 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a < 1422801096 149180 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ramovel. < 1422801107 143199 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+s < 1422801114 10003 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rasmovel. < 1422801130 347808 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure that means something in russian. < 1422801164 259001 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it's actually pronounced like rasmavyel < 1422801223 824173 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably. GT isn't very helpful hth < 1422801250 50622 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, we're overdue for a new Prelude. < 1422801290 537091 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the Prelude gets refactored, is that gonna obsolete what few good guides are already out there for Haskell? < 1422801311 161560 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it suggests растовел but has no actual meaning for it < 1422801369 270772 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :J_Arcane: probably, but many of them were obsolete already. < 1422801386 65242 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is true. I know RWH is getting a bit long in tooth already. < 1422801390 314676 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the BBP is supposed to be pretty backwards-compatible except for some type ambiguities. < 1422801447 105963 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like that the neighbor's dog is occasionally barking again. < 1422801460 219957 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not _constantly_ like the first months, but still... < 1422801480 432744 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope it's not the start of a slippery slope < 1422801492 660374 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a well oiled dog barks best. < 1422801527 314819 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, the BBP has been so well designed to be backwards compatible that many of the suggestions for how to partially backpedal on it will break _more_ code than it. < 1422801566 469561 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also, as edwardk has repeatedly mentioned, a _lot_ of packages have already been adapted to it. < 1422801645 663908 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's definitely in "even if it went too far in one step, going back is now even worse" territory. < 1422801780 148704 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1422801809 186398 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this BBP? < 1422801884 570288 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the Burning Bridges Proposal, implemented in the upcoming 7.10 release candidate, adds Foldable and Traversable to the Prelude and generalizes most functions in the Prelude to the functions of the same name in Data.Foldable and Data.Traversable < 1422801896 190453 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi NICK :mhi^_^ < 1422801900 142734 :mhi^_^!nortti@nano.smar.fi NICK :nortti < 1422801925 840349 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah! < 1422801944 874788 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t mapM < 1422801945 867290 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b] < 1422801955 167268 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t Data.Traversable.mapM < 1422801956 256343 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b) < 1422801971 205415 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know they made Monad dependent on Applicable now < 1422801976 527188 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even functions like sum and product are affected < 1422801983 594685 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1422801996 329726 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they have type defaults that default to list? < 1422802022 261183 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, that's possibly the main non-backwards-compatible issue < 1422802038 737816 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1422802100 552961 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure if the ghc defaulting mechanism supports * -> * kind defaults < 1422802137 823895 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: even if it doesn't no, maybe they'll change that? I mean, they're extending the type system all the tiem < 1422802276 479286 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1422802343 937044 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does seem like something that shouldn't be too hard to do < 1422802591 611769 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :So < 1422802600 79197 :Lymia!~lymia@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it called the Burning Bridges Proposal < 1422802723 747185 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it changes a lot of the haskell Prelude module, which is usually considered part of the language itself. < 1422802790 275248 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's sort of a "we're already modifying the Prelude incompatibly by making Applicative a superclass of Monad, why not go all in" < 1422802877 533483 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original proposal was supposedly even more radical, in a less backward-compatible way < 1422802897 997557 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e.g. in the end they did not merge map and fmap) < 1422803550 963047 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, like changing (.) to be an alias to fmap ? < 1422803567 270303 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and (++) to, um, mplus or whatever it is? < 1422803589 465819 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they wouldn't change (.) to that, seeing as Control.Category uses it in a way incompatible to fmap < 1422803599 982027 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe ++ was considered < 1422803609 992123 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1422803625 812858 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (Control.Category..) < 1422803626 694140 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Category cat => cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c < 1422803694 932603 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the generalization of ++, mappend, has the alternative name <> now. < 1422803707 201417 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for quite some time) < 1422803755 951192 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm they probably also included Monoid in the Prelude, it's needed for Foldable to be defined. < 1422803779 666329 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monoid is pretty much harmless. < 1422803787 509064 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1422804513 666537 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh right, mappend < 1422804941 721827 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: SPECIFIC CHICKEN < 1422805288 939049 :MDream!~fyrc@pa-67-235-2-71.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDude < 1422805307 391990 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1422805762 970744 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1422805824 303733 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1422806605 126020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422807100 202007 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1422807270 960989 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422807453 136439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1422807459 608809 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1422807499 209312 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Honestly? The Prelude is just the set of stuff in scope by default. If the entire prelude consisted of one function that drew an ASCII fish and nothing else, I could live with that." < 1422807609 714401 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-143-251.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :( :t (++) < 1422807609 958426 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-092-072-143-251.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :09Data.HVect.(++) : 12HVect 13ts -> 12HVect 13us -> 12HVect (13ts 09++ 13us) < 1422807610 103134 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-092-072-143-251.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :09Prelude.List.(++) : 12List 13a -> 12List 13a -> 12List 13a < 1422807610 103300 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-092-072-143-251.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :09Prelude.Strings.(++) : 12String -> 12String -> 12String < 1422807610 103376 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-092-072-143-251.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :09Data.VectType.Vect.(++) : 12Vect 13m 13a -> 12Vect 13n 13a -> 12Vect (13m 09+ 13n) 13a < 1422807728 716131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: depends on what said function is named < 1422807738 546140 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it has a name that's likely to clash with other things, I might be annoyed < 1422807757 155760 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, because you can do import Prelude () < 1422808075 990092 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :god this low frequency noise from somewhere in the neigbors' apartments is annoying < 1422808142 288314 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's of course strongest precisely where i'm sitting. < 1422808457 421680 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1422810529 367657 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on what type of fish < 1422810577 913790 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, whether it's one of those crypto-fish in fashion back when the US had those export regulations about software < 1422810602 35233 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would get very old fast and show how out-dated language Haskell was < 1422811904 658789 :j-bot!~j-bot@li339-21.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1422812753 561631 :Qfwfq!~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1422812877 394183 :Qfwfq!~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving JOIN :#esoteric < 1422813949 165061 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1422814059 969579 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1422814192 351877 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1422814709 736163 :arjanb!8259aa3c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.89.170.60 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422815185 353717 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lord help me, I think I kinda like JavaScript. < 1422815312 674149 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1422815635 445930 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1422815645 960098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422815726 792466 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1422816014 118587 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why should anything be in scope by default? < 1422816129 316262 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any language? < 1422816270 223023 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generality suggests keeping the base language minimal (like C). Ease of use suggests having lots of default stuff (like Perl). < 1422816338 914008 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a good middle ground is to have a "import basic stuff" line at the top of programs < 1422816506 203921 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is what they did in C++ with "using namespace std" < 1422816732 207640 :arjanb!8259aa3c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.89.170.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say import nothing by default, and let an IDE do most of the importing for you < 1422816812 723170 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :J_Arcane: It's not worse than PHP or C++... < 1422816859 44561 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: I think maybe it's also just refreshing to deal with after C# ... < 1422816986 180074 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# has some... problems with syntax < 1422817043 459778 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is better than C++ < 1422817130 297652 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I'd rather do C# than C++ or Java, but it's still a question of degrees ... < 1422817260 912181 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: oh come on, import basic stuff is just four lines in C++ < 1422817275 445241 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok wait, twenty lines of #include and THEN four lines < 1422817467 959016 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :#include \ #include \ #include \ #include \ #include \ #include \ #include \ #include \ #include \ #include \ #include \ #include \ < 1422817535 84525 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :using std::cerr; using std::abort; using std::swap; using std::move; using std::min; using std::max; using std::abs; using std::sqrt; using std::exp; using std::log; using std::sin; using std::cos; using std::atan2; using std::array; using std::vector; using std::string; using std::unique_ptr; // and that's about it < 1422817614 726478 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not really long, it is? < 1422817641 718162 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you need ten more lines of task-specific includes for what you actually want to do < 1422818463 997215 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be a #include <> <> <> <>... statement < 1422818572 676986 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently there was some sort of important handegg game recently < 1422818659 306379 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: and a using std::cerr, std::abort, std::swap, std::move, std::min, std::max; statement < 1422818687 724240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dear god: for 2k15, please make "showing off how little you [pretend to] know about sports" not be the top form of nerd brag any more < 1422818710 215995 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, how little do you know about sports? < 1422818710 400128 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: alice did not like shaking my head requires more power but the computer, fnord of the fnord here, so i don't see big contradiction: if soviets created < 1422818770 433491 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I know a lot about HOCKEY, the only IMPORTANT sport. < 1422818786 450723 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's easier here, because we don't have to pretend we know nothing of american football, baseball, basketball and hockey ( http://www.xkcd.com/1107/ ), but only of soccer, handball and water polo. < 1422818855 374993 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Canada that chart would only include hockey and, in the city, football. < 1422818857 918512 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now water polo is played mostly underwater so even the judges know nothing about it and have to guess (but they have to pretend they know everything anyway), and soccer is played on such a large field you and the judges have no hope to see everything, it's not hard to pretend you can't follow them. < 1422819068 553923 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hockey is interesting because it's dominated mostly by American teams, which consist mainly of Canadian players. < 1422819117 477054 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: how does that make it interesting or different from other sports? < 1422819124 861531 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have crowds of Canadians cheering on Russians as they beat up Canadians < 1422819185 539416 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas in football the teams consist of citizens of the country they represent < 1422819307 615871 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: no, that's only the national teams in the championships, and there's one of those only every two years. the normal teams which participate in the leagues are made mostly of foreigner players who can make more of a carrier abroad. < 1422819342 819784 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: and that's not even counting people in national teams that are granted citizenship easier just so they can be part of the national soccer team. < 1422819387 837429 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well, that's less interesting.... < 1422819390 770331 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't have many Chinese in European soccer teams yet, but only because they prefer other sports. < 1422819432 749447 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what about south americans? < 1422819443 612284 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: A fair few, I think. < 1422819465 353814 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: dunno, I don't really follow sports, I'm not the right person to ask about the details < 1422819477 353005 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only follow hockey < 1422819515 420611 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone wants a Brazillian player in soccer. Some of the Brit clubs have paid non-trivial sums to get one ... < 1422819594 345114 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know a Brazillian-English bodybuilder by way of my former language class, and he said he was more or less told he could sign up to just about any club he wanted, because, essentially, racism. ;) < 1422820979 463500 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1422821498 410288 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1422821970 615343 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1422822156 108299 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1422822179 666212 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if people describing an algorithm with code and equations used the same variable names in both,rather than expecting me to guess < 1422822185 869669 :shikhin_!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin NICK :shikhin < 1422822349 380514 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1422822457 907444 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, how many substitutions do I need? < 1422822458 95657 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins were in truth, and everything in readiness for fnord. under these is concerned, the use of " coup" here is one that only takes predicates and has not named a < 1422822466 939920 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1422822548 902729 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1422822554 641405 :nys!~nysnamovo@blk-215-85-138.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1422823051 948574 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Ominous. < 1422823052 132109 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i just wrote :p ( what was i thinking there.... :d), i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped! < 1422823075 983714 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1422823076 168075 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube < 1422823085 629205 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 'ct' style is well-represented in the overall 'fungot' style. < 1422823085 773870 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going to use funge-93 because tusho said i well, bully hector? < 1422823689 484479 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1422823854 678824 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`8-ball is it wise to you for financial advise and predicting the stock market? < 1422823855 241697 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Signs point to yes. < 1422823878 928896 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`8-ball is it wise to you to predict the result of big sport events? < 1422823879 416451 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reply hazy try again. < 1422823906 205344 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, how much do you know about sports? < 1422823906 350289 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1422823915 409113 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1422823929 731271 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did he figure that? < 1422823935 155418 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, do you like handball? < 1422823935 433612 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: his birthday is in the same as the word " crazy" " not exactly the daycare-place i was just about to do it when i wake up long lol < 1422823963 366765 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, do you like waterpolo? < 1422823963 511249 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: is that something you know and and the cases that required to actually mutate the original ( sorted, perhaps, it may be said that particularly here, parliament will give a single instance, < 1422824068 501352 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, can you control the path of meteorites?" < 1422824068 646248 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: if that is not used commonly and carries with it an array subscript was too easy heh one time i figured if it's possible, notify the notary. < 1422824092 546589 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: ok, then direct this one to the shores of Greenland < 1422824169 454319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1422824173 790885 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422824283 539934 :olsner_!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se NICK :olsner < 1422824884 608192 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1422824896 735258 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422825329 268176 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-44c2aebc.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Please check back here on February 1st for an update on our study, and on LessWrong for a ProveItForReal.org update on March 1st." < 1422825631 443953 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't decide on an algorithm for rotating the digits of a number (24983 becoes 32498), but I don't even need it to be fast. I'm just indecisive < 1422825668 429803 :^v^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 NICK :^v < 1422825682 840017 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just do the stupid thing < 1422825689 29745 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1422825691 117269 :scarf!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422825722 919752 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is base 10 log, followed by a mod, division and addition < 1422825881 672235 :scarf!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1422825897 919782 :scarf!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422826073 765522 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. JavaScript's object model seems a lot like Heresy's ... < 1422826198 263624 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric < 1422826209 271713 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422826238 350984 :AndoDaan!~AndoDaan@188.188.82.98 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422826274 767981 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zaksjfoletqikomh JOIN :#esoteric < 1422826455 866033 :scarf!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1422827317 310268 :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :using katakana in equations feels liberating, because there are so many < 1422827333 228518 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1422827505 831220 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :65% through the codecademy JS course now ... XD < 1422827530 778737 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422827533 552826 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1422827821 792521 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: it's only liberating if you can actually tell different katakana apart :P < 1422828051 438495 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ut-oh. I was just shutting down the server at home (in preparation for the move) when it dawned on me that I haven < 1422828054 685622 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :'t moved fungot yet. < 1422828054 860490 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff that makes me even)) x sort ( filter procedure, but maybe i will when i start fixing it rather than having arbitrary bf, as if it wasn't. holy cow, i never claimed that the victim) subject:re: `which fnord echo < 1422828069 743422 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, apparently it's even more complex than that. < 1422828311 493741 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Do you think I should do something to keep you online, or do you want to take a holiday of few weeks? < 1422828311 638498 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ( ( ( a()**)a*:a*)(a()**)a*:a*)((x1)(x2)(x3)) ...out of time! don't let " persons" be added to the actual standard being sane) scheme implementations but guile is my fnord' doggie than a dozen tales, of the whole fnord range of the ' ' ' delete a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there < 1422828323 256113 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1422828333 89500 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how to interpret that. < 1422828406 768078 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1422828533 899566 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@81.174.175.133 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422828536 686902 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@81.174.175.133 QUIT :Changing host < 1422828536 833212 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1422828576 715051 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-24-43.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1422828590 496813 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :J_Arcane: the prototypal object model is pretty straightforward (although JS's in particular is a bit messy) < 1422828612 724634 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-24-43.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1422828612 895254 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1422828673 252810 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: Yeah, I noticed the syntax gets a little ambiguous when you're iterating over object fields. < 1422828687 544443 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ambiguous? < 1422828689 771580 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1422828715 325599 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi QUIT :Quit: BEEP BOOP TIME TO TAKE A BREAK < 1422828733 907929 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enjoy your break, fungot < 1422828783 341317 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: Well, unclear at least. When doing for (var x in obj), I'm a little unclear what's actually in x. Ie. is it thus a string, and thus you must do obj[x], or can obj.x work safely, that kinda thing. < 1422828786 308266 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1422828797 313419 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1422828817 295424 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's pretty straightforward. foo.bar is basically just sugar for foo["bar"] < 1422828862 409976 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Heresy, you can do (for (x in (Obj 'fields)) ...) and x will contain a valid symbol for calling a field in Obj, such that you can then do (Obj x). < 1422828893 133910 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1422829056 533785 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a similar idea though, Heresy objects are basically just a lambda wrapped round an association list, so you can do fun stuff like that pretty easily. Need to decide what, and if, I'm gonna do with it I think. < 1422829143 73110 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does heresy have the concept of prototypal inheritance, where if you look up a property in an object and the property is missing, it'll try to look it up in the prototype instead? < 1422829201 792742 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`8-ball Does heresy have the concept of prototypal inheritance? < 1422829202 902391 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask again later. < 1422829262 323247 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: Depends how it was declared. I'm a little fuzzy on the inheritance feature, because 1) it's new, and 2) I didn't write it. < 1422829355 474384 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pkg-build.racket-lang.org/doc/heresy/index.html#%28form._%28%28lib._heresy%2Fmain..rkt%29._describe%29%29 < 1422829525 171488 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds similar < 1422829692 404141 :nisstyre!~yourstrul@li611-52.members.linode.com QUIT :Changing host < 1422829692 548901 :nisstyre!~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1422830124 256939 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1422830721 258698 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh. echo '#social-share-button { display: none !important }' >> .mozilla/firefox/default/chrome/userChrome.css < 1422830733 770664 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :firefox continues to add useless crap < 1422830761 177713 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i believe we've successfully delayed ghc by a month hth < 1422830785 498810 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1422830878 701354 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :No new comments on the ticket, hmm. < 1422830896 492893 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a ghc-devs post linked from reddit < 1422830924 731295 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm not subscribed to ghc-dev, perhaps I should be... < 1422830937 127374 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: great < 1422830958 410157 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.haskell.org/pipermail/ghc-devs/2015-January/008189.html < 1422831259 933361 :^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1422831283 170822 :^v!~^v@2601:4:680:104c:50d3:dc3f:9f09:d861 JOIN :#esoteric < 1422831550 163682 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just hope the BBP discussion does not take advantage of this delay. I mean I don't really care about the BBP as such, but going forth and back on this seems like a big waste of effort (mostly hvr's) < 1422831765 669404 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am somewhat wondering if they manage to implement this in such a way that no type signatures need to be changed to use anything Kindable-like < 1422831963 147845 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. To me it seemed that a proper solution would involve tracking Typable instances for polymorphic kinds, much the same way they have to be tracked for polymorphic datatypes. So we'd have things like (Typeable k, Typeable t) => Typeable (Proxy (t :: k)) < 1422832007 916276 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that would indeed change some type signatures. < 1422832008 879982 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i was thinking that too, although that (1) would require changing type signatures (2) cannot be done with current ghc types < 1422832038 341833 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since there is essentially a function dependency from type to kind... < 1422832042 309620 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*functional < 1422832048 893640 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-27-51.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1422832054 377170 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh man this Black Mirror ep is weird ... < 1422832080 826297 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are they delaying 7.10 < 1422832083 26881 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the bug in 7.8 too < 1422832091 781418 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not going to make things any less vulnerable < 1422832107 327765 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It would mean getting a fix out sooner < 1422832110 970710 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes but spj _really_ doesn't like Safe Haskell completely broken, i think < 1422832135 253468 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it's only theoretically ever sound < 1422832143 420271 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, yeah, SPJ's opinion carries some wait here. < 1422832150 693065 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*weight < 1422832155 636004 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1422832188 868236 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate those phonetically correct typos. < 1422832233 134124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but you could just release 7.10.1 quickly < 1422832239 87598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the point is that nobody wants to upgrade twice in quick succession < 1422832243 929328 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: does your typefamily method avoid needing anything for kinds in the signatures? < 1422832252 157772 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wouldn't it require changing the type signatures to the _correct_ signatures from the wrong ones? < 1422832276 338351 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the old signatures aren't wrong per _se_ < 1422832285 523036 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a type always implicitly includes its kind < 1422832289 839393 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah right, because ghc still breaks binary compatibility of all modules you've compiled with it at every point release! < 1422832290 300200 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's easier to explain breaking code (and I'm still not convinced that that won't happen) with a full release than with a point release. < 1422832298 46348 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sn't that the basic problem? < 1422832317 826581 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so people can't just upgrade as lightly as with most other software < 1422832355 56196 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So what I'm trying to say is, I'm not sure whether this should be left for 7.10.1 or 7.12.1, but I don't think it can be done in a 7.10.x, x>1, release. < 1422832414 612116 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i fear that if you have a typeable instance which depends on a kind variable, then ghc will do its instance resolution in such a way that it _needs_ an explicit context for the kind as well, which is what seemed to happen for my experiments < 1422832417 536722 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I may be wrong and this won't break any code at all. < 1422832437 840141 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :... but as already indicated, I don't see how. < 1422832476 240233 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seriously, that's what really shows it's a research language) < 1422832482 997339 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :_if_ they can manage to avoid the kind separating from the type in a sense, then the signatures wouldn't need to change. or so i think. < 1422832525 377336 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1422832525 698903 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand int-e's type family version enough to say if that does it < 1422832532 188237 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I suggested leaving this for 7.12 mainly because there have already been two RCs, so breaking code now *will* cause some upset. < 1422832584 188505 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What it is supposed to accomplish is that you don't need explicit Typeable contexts for monomorphic kinds. < 1422832637 872714 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh. i thought my method did that as well, or could, at least. < 1422832736 727005 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that you cannot actually write Typeable k for a kind k afaik, except possibly in goldfire's branch, seems to be a problem. < 1422832739 12586 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hmm, you may be right. But the type family also covers the (Typeable a, Typeable b) => (Typable (a b)) instance, where with MPTCs you run into the open world assumption problem < 1422832815 922641 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does? as i said there is essentially a functional dependency. < 1422832850 368814 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i was going to test something... < 1422832887 220255 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can you have Typeable contexts for kinds? < 1422832890 582962 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a "open world assumption problem"? Also what is goldfire's branch? < 1422832935 252412 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, nope, you cannot define a type synonym with a kind parameter either :( < 1422832986 507040 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you supposed to? < 1422832990 52655 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you cannot, currently, but it would seem the most obvious way of getting a reified kind to put in the Typeable instance for a polykind type < 1422833050 115326 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: goldfire's branch is a branch where he is removing the distinction between types and kinds, in order to prepare for a dependent types extension < 1422833073 345650 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(am i remembering the nick correctly, hm...) < 1422833125 735582 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "open world assumption" is the rule that instance resolution for a class never assumes anything based on which instances are _not_ in scope < 1422833159 800849 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, you may be right. Perhaps the real trick is that in my code, only *some* Typeable instances have a "Kindable (Proxy :: k -> *)" (= Typable (KindRep (Proxy :: k -> *))) context. < 1422833206 248031 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "problem" then is that it can sometimes be hard to convince ghc to use the one you want < 1422833224 681247 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the problem of getting from Kindable (k1 -> k2) to Kindable k1 and Kindable k2 doesn't crop up. < 1422833226 642415 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe you should need support for defining automatic classes and for defining closed classes. Typeable can then be made into a automatic class; you don't need deriving(Typeable) and can't define an explicit instance but for polymorphic functions you will still need a Typeable context if you want to use its type information. < 1422833264 886496 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes that's the way SPJ is heading < 1422833336 125711 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1422833352 650732 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the changes for 7.10 are big enough that several people have suggested that it should be numbered 8.0 instead. but then they don't really affect the _internals_ of ghc as much as the libraries. < 1422833372 476092 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure how the syntax should be for defining automatic classes, but Typeable would be built-in anyways so it doesn't matter in this case. < 1422833400 68959 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not much wrong with bumping base to 5.0 without bumping the ghc version... < 1422833417 413122 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it would help to make up a syntax and capability for these kind of things, as well as to define the new kind of macros so that do-notation and list-syntax can be made into macros that are defined in the Prelude instead of being built-in. < 1422833423 512830 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but everything is wrong with bumping the base version, I have upper bounds 5 almost everywhere ;0 < 1422833426 518823 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1422833449 830200 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1422833496 717461 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91-rdmsoft [XULRunner 32.0.3/20140923175406] < 1422833521 375521 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@dsl-trebrasgw1-50dff2-22.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1422833644 312152 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there aren't that many other classes than Typeable that really _can_ be automatic in a user-definable way, because you want to support abstract data types by allowing not exporting constructors and deriving classes that expose internal structure. The information in Typeable is afaict about everything that _cannot_ be hidden this way. < 1422833817 328178 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coercible is also automatic, but it _checks_ whether the constructors are exposed. < 1422833834 429951 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that; you would somehow need macros if you can have user-definable automatic classes at all, since the macro then needs to use the stuff it is capable of using. This might result in the instances of such classes being different in different modules. But another way might be automatic classes based on instances of other classes. Other details would be names of types as strings. < 1422833859 437821 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i suppose there could be a mechanism for that, but then you'd have the same weirdness as Coercible in that the instance isn't necessarily inherited < 1422833944 808538 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: aeson has default methods for some its classes based on Generic, not quite automatic but close. < 1422833950 75190 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*some of its < 1422834003 508126 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm there _was_ a suggestion of allowing deriving any class by using its default methods... < 1422834027 675419 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it was even in 7.10 RC < 1422834057 320291 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean like: data A = B | C deriving(Eq, default D, default E); < 1422834095 3398 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So that you would have to explcitly specify you are deriving by defaults.) < 1422834106 886993 :arjanb!8259aa3c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.89.170.60 QUIT :Quit: . < 1422834112 748605 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But can't you just use instance without defining the methods, in such case, instead? < 1422834168 991462 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hm i don't think there was an explicit keyword, just (Eq, D, E) < 1422834200 583740 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :however it _would_ be good to be able to at least specify explicitly if you want GND or defaults < 1422834212 480629 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your module has both extensions < 1422834230 725520 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes for newtype instead of data it would help to explicitly specify "default" in this case at least; for data it isn't needed < 1422834260 484517 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might even want to able to overrule that for base classes, so you could do newtype MyType = MyType Int deriving (newtype Show) < 1422834265 905791 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to be able < 1422834282 571274 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that too I agree < 1422834299 416200 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be better, and I think more useful than deriving defaults < 1422834469 157164 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did they add "\case" syntax instead of my "\of" suggestion? (Which I think is probably same except for the words in use; "\of" would probably simplify the parser both for layout and nonlayout) < 1422834472 219923 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the syntax deriving (newtype Show, default JSON) is pretty much vacant? < 1422834474 946570 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1422834502 606141 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :both because they're keywords, and because they're lower case < 1422834516 610975 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: re-using existing language keywords for new meanings? I see you're learning from us C++ers. Very good. < 1422834518 102296 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes that is why I suggested using the keyword "default" < 1422834594 357075 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In SQLite although new keywords are sometimes added, they are never reserved words; only a few keywords are reserved words. Therefore it doesn't cause problem if your name of a column or table or whatever is now a keyword. < 1422834640 690076 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i also liked \of better than \case for logical grounds, although i actually preferred "case of". but someone (spj) vetoed \of on the grounds it was too lightweight < 1422834655 566946 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hehe, "only a few" < 1422834663 999801 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sqlite.org/lang_keywords.html lists more than there are in C++ I think < 1422834667 338741 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*(spj?) < 1422834676 851661 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, although most of those aren't reserved. < 1422834727 172996 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked again and actually I forgot how many are reserved < 1422834728 967690 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :funnily that list doesn't include COVERING < 1422834732 102445 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, a lot of them aren't reserved. < 1422834752 138515 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And any new ones added also won't be reserved. < 1422834768 245351 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they promise that? < 1422834781 243164 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that page actually says “SQLite adds new keywords from time to time when it takes on new features.” < 1422834783 24254 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they do implicitly although it doesn't say so. < 1422834797 800084 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, perl says that too but they don't add new keywords anymore < 1422834812 17268 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is true they add new keywords, but from my experience as well as for backward-compatibility reasons, the new keywords won't be reserved. < 1422834851 971877 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl has used like three different solutions to avoid adding new reserved words < 1422834868 858050 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :my arguments for "case of" were (1) it doesn't need a new layout keyword (2) it leaves out the expression, so you can think of it as a case section < 1422834885 879565 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely, (1) putting important core functions to modules rather than builtin functions, (2) adding a weak keyword, (3) adding a keyword that is active only if you specifically allow it with "use feature" < 1422834894 199677 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :((2) was done only once) < 1422834921 415806 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have made a list of the reserved words. There are 58 reserved words, which is almost half of all of the keywords in SQLite. < 1422834954 976414 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of the new keywords in Objective-C also aren't reserved and can be used as the names of ordinary C stuff without a problem. < 1422834983 711584 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Therefore, any C program is also a valid Objective-C program.) < 1422835087 409951 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1422835122 647301 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :WITH and WITHOUT aren't reserved words in SQLite; nor is RECURSIVE. < 1422835185 889361 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-58-35.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes those are my reason too. I don't use the layout mode but many people do, and regardless of this it makes the parser more sensible. Either "case of" or "\of" is better to me than "\case".