00:01:41 konboilyha 00:05:14 -!- Lilax|away has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:05:36 borensoir! 00:05:48 お元気ですか 00:07:10 はい、元気です! 00:09:22 オォォォォッ!あちらも日本語IMEで書けています!すごい! 00:09:27 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 00:10:43 天気はどうですか ここにはもっとも寒い(>_<) 00:12:01 ここも寒い。冬はもうおわんない 00:12:33 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:13:09 そうですね 00:13:26 i think this channel may have entered the matrix, there are all these strange symbols 00:13:52 hellオrjan! 00:14:36 unless this is zalgo, see today's sromg (NSFL) 00:14:52 what's a sromg? 00:15:05 square root of minus garfield 00:15:14 oh. 00:16:11 mezzacotta / david morgan mar's collaborative garfield parody comic 00:17:31 ギャアア!その漫画は怖いよ!  00:17:34 he just added a dinosaur comic collaborative fan comic, so now i'm reading that without reading dinosaur comic itself... 00:17:58 *+s, possibly 00:18:05 oren: 何を読んでいますか 00:18:42 how much better is the fan comic than the original? 00:18:55 そのSROMG漫画を読んでいます 00:18:57 obscure webcomics are obscure for a reason. 00:19:05 I've been trying to find dinosaur comics funny for some time now 00:19:20 They aren't that funny 00:19:24 olsner: hm, in that case probably a lot 00:19:55 oren: わかります 僕は読まないんだよ 00:20:24 olsner: hellolsner. they were supposed to be funny? 00:20:38 boily: what else could they be supposed to be? 00:20:56 i thought today's fan comic was funny, anyway 00:21:35 my favorite webcomic (in English) is "Basic Instructions" 00:21:38 olsner: philosophical? reflective? introspective? 00:21:51 s/web// 00:22:12 boily: dinosaurs 00:22:29 I'm still a thorough fan of xkcd. 00:22:46 olsner: a fortunate incident. 00:23:21 `quote dinosaur 00:23:23 No output. 00:23:53 `quote strosaur 00:23:53 No output. 00:23:59 bin wéyons... 00:24:09 `? oerjan 00:24:09 `quote boily 00:24:10 Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. 00:24:10 918) boily: the man eating chicken is just a normal man, it's quite common to eat chicken in some parts of the world \ 919) ~eval 1+2 Error (127): this is a great bot boily i love it \ 928) not only there is no God, but try to find an APL keyboard on Sunday. \ 931) ais523: I'm not sure my 00:24:33 `? lystrosaur 00:24:35 The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic. 00:24:36 (huh. I thought there were l[iy]strosaurs somewhere in oerjan's `?...) 00:24:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:24:43 oerjan: thoerjan. 00:25:00 boily: i guess you just associated on "evil" hth 00:25:15 oerjan: naturally. 00:25:39 * oerjan denies being a lystrosaur recently awakened from stasis 00:25:52 oerjan is an evil overlord, lystrosaurs were evil and took over the world => became overlords, everything matches up 00:26:06 denial doesn't make it not so 00:26:11 i hear elizabeth II might be one, though 00:26:33 lizzy the lizard 00:27:31 i suppose lystrosaurs were also antediluvian 00:27:57 and roald dahl wrote books about defeating evil monsters, so they'd naturally hate him. 00:28:10 yeah, a surprising amount of matches there 00:52:14 -!- ais523 has quit. 00:57:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:17:34 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Quit: Going, going, gone.). 01:17:36 -!- Tod-Autojoined has changed nick to TodPunk. 01:43:23 -!- oren has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:44:18 -!- oren has joined. 01:44:33 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:54:33 home again home again jiggity jig 01:56:27 quinthellopia! :D 01:57:25 in real life i'd still be at work 01:57:51 and you'd already be in bed half an hour from now when i got home 01:59:14 real life is an illusion. and besides, this chännel entered the matrix a few hours ago. 02:01:02 so you're back home? have you enjoyed your trip? 02:01:10 i dunno, the strange symbols seem to have disappeared 02:01:26 the pain of spain 02:01:50 is mainly in the plane 02:04:55 huh, apparently I shouldn't try to send email during a distro upgrade 02:05:09 the email editor in Evolution has no send button 02:05:16 and when I try to close the compose window 02:06:11 it puts up a dialog box with an information icon and no text 02:07:36 oerjan: don't worry. the next swarm will strike when you least expect it. 02:07:44 ais523: which distro? 02:08:07 Ubuntu 02:09:54 strange... 02:17:46 the trip was good 02:17:55 never got to try orxata tho 02:18:04 not a winter thing, they say 02:30:09 such is winter... 02:30:37 'night all! 02:30:49 -!- boily has quit (Quit: MOXIBUSTIVE CHICKEN). 02:31:03 @wn moxibustive 02:31:04 No match for "moxibustive". 02:31:15 @google moxibustive 02:31:16 No Result Found. 02:31:29 HE'S JUST PLAYING WITH US 02:31:38 ugh, the distro upgrader seems to have crashed 02:32:12 @wn moxibustion 02:32:13 No match for "moxibustion". 02:32:23 @google moxibustion 02:32:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxibustion 02:32:24 Title: Moxibustion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 02:32:40 @wn word 02:32:41 *** "word" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 02:32:41 word 02:32:41 n 1: a unit of language that native speakers can identify; 02:32:41 "words are the blocks from which sentences are made"; "he 02:32:41 hardly said ten words all morning" 02:32:43 [24 @more lines] 02:32:56 my response was to kill dpkg, it seems to be continuing now, at least 02:33:07 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 02:33:18 I've restored Ubuntu from a broken distro upgrade before now 02:33:22 but prefer it when I don't have to 02:33:43 let's hope that whatever package it didn't install isn't essential for the computer to boot 02:39:44 -!- Lymia has joined. 02:47:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:57:45 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:59:05 -!- adu has joined. 03:44:53 OK, about to reboot into the new distro 03:45:01 I've done the best I can to manually fix things 03:45:05 here goes... 03:45:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: rebooting). 03:45:28 r.i.p. 03:48:13 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Quit: Going, going, gone.). 03:49:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 03:50:21 ooh, I think it worked 03:50:48 huge number of crash reports, but I think all of them were either caused by a bug in ocaml-doc, or indirectly from my kill -9 dpkg during the upgrade 03:53:05 famous last words 03:54:02 nah, famous last words would be me before the reboot 03:54:48 i cannot help it, i'm reading the tvtropes untwist page 03:55:40 famous first words 04:02:41 oh, hmm, the unity dash still has terrible performance 04:02:44 but not quite as bad 04:02:51 it only takes like 5 seconds to open rather than like 15 04:05:23 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:07:47 s/terrible/triple/ 04:13:04 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 04:15:13 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Client Quit). 04:16:04 -!- rodgort has joined. 04:25:37 ais523: that's why I switched to Xubuntu 04:26:47 well, also because I like windows and hate mac, and i hate how everyone wants to be an iphone now 04:30:41 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:34:32 i don't want to be an iphone hth 04:35:15 i also don't want to be a lumberjack. (nothing wrong with lumberjacks, they're okay.) 04:35:49 -!- Eolus has joined. 04:35:55 Muahah 04:35:58 heolus 04:36:14 what evil plans dost thou laugh about 04:38:30 I truly don't know 04:39:14 We had a headache earlier and I dun know maybe I'm just wantin' to laugh 04:39:56 well it is good to practice one's evil cackling 04:41:31 -+- 04:41:38 So how's you 04:41:58 still addicted to 30x30 Bridges 04:42:38 yay 04:42:58 Ok, So I made a self modifying encryption key for my bot 04:43:04 and I am proud of me self 04:43:17 Although it breaks every other day ;--; 04:43:48 oerjan: I'm soooo sorry. 04:43:58 Did someone die? 04:44:12 you have to make it _remember_ that you modified it hth 04:44:27 no, the 30x30 Bridges is int-e's fault 04:44:42 ya 04:44:46 makes sense 04:45:13 oerjan: you did retaliate however, by pointing me to yet another webcomic. 04:45:28 lol webcomics and oerjan 04:45:56 wait, which one 04:45:58 (namely, Rice Boy) 04:46:00 ah. 04:46:11 well i learned about rice boy on this channel, i think 04:47:07 -!- rodgort has joined. 04:49:09 -!- rodgort has quit (Excess Flood). 04:49:22 oh mai 04:50:19 you mai wat 04:50:37 OH MAI 04:50:42 that's wat 04:51:08 kom mai du skjønne milde 04:51:59 Non 04:52:25 http://puu.sh/fxhxd/9833c39b67.gif 04:53:20 wat 04:53:42 :3 04:56:01 yy/mm/dd 04:56:51 Eolus: You're so || close to failing the Turing test. 04:57:57 What 04:58:07 * Eolus pats int-e 04:58:16 I have no idea who you are ^_^ 05:03:28 neildegrasse_ok_well.gif 05:08:47 int-e: wait are you saying Eolus has been a bot all along 05:13:44 osaka_oh_mai_gaa.m4a 05:16:00 oerjan: no, of course not. stop reading between the lines! 05:17:24 -!- rodgort has joined. 05:17:54 int-e: well i have to do it to keep passing the turing test 05:18:27 Eolus: the correct format for dates, btw is YYYY-MM-DD 05:18:44 or maybe YYYY.MM.DD 05:19:04 actually it's yy/dd/mmmm 05:19:15 happy 15/06/0002 05:19:50 https://xkcd.com/1179/ 05:20:33 Although, there should be a standard for where and how to put the weekday 05:21:26 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 05:21:33 One idea is to do 2015-02F06 05:22:06 With letters MTWRFSU for the weekdays 05:22:29 i agree that it is one idea. 05:23:42 oerjan: ISO has that. 05:23:42 2015-02-06 is 2015-W05-5 05:23:51 2015-W06-5 05:23:51 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:23:57 are you sure 05:23:59 wikipedia says W06 05:24:17 *oren: 05:24:17 Hmm. In japan they do Y年M月D日(W) 05:24:22 orgh. 05:24:27 `` cal 1 2015 05:24:28 elliott: thanks, you're right. 05:24:28 ​ January 2015 \ Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa \ 1 2 3 \ 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 \ 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 \ 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 \ 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 05:24:37 `` date +%Y-W%V-%u 05:24:38 2015-W06-5 05:25:01 date has a few too many of those week number and day of week format strings. 05:25:43 hm so it includes the short week? 05:26:18 which is officially a week of the previous year 05:26:29 oh wait no 05:26:44 yes. note that the ISO week is from Mo to Su, so that's 4 days in 2015. 05:26:48 it starts listing on Su 05:26:55 who said I was doing dates? 05:26:58 I didn't 05:27:06 Eolus: so you prefer figs? 05:27:08 Eolus: this channel isn't about you. 05:27:32 Go to your cupboard 05:29:17 Eolus: please be more polite. 05:29:22 oh, %Y is also wrong. 05:29:32 * Eolus pats oerjan 05:29:37 ok, sir 05:29:51 `` date +%G-W%V-%u -d2016-01-01 05:29:52 2015-W53-5 05:36:08 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:37:11 `` LC_TIME=jp_JA.utf8 ; date 05:37:11 bash: warning: setlocale: LC_TIME: cannot change locale (jp_JA.utf8): No such file or directory \ Fri Feb 6 05:37:09 UTC 2015 05:37:21 `` LC_TIME=jp_JA ; date 05:37:21 bash: warning: setlocale: LC_TIME: cannot change locale (jp_JA): No such file or directory \ Fri Feb 6 05:37:19 UTC 2015 05:37:29 bah 05:42:12 `` TZ=Japan date 05:42:16 Fri Feb 6 14:42:14 JST 2015 05:42:18 Anyway the japanese notation has the advantage that each part of the date is clearly labeled, making an order irrelevant 05:43:14 2015年2月6日(金) 05:44:38 05:45:47 Effectivley the advantage is the same as assigned arguments for a function call 05:47:47 -!- rodgort has joined. 05:48:38 -!- rodgort has quit (Excess Flood). 05:58:10 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 06:18:33 -!- rodgort has joined. 06:29:56 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:31:26 oren: you are clearly missing Chinese. 06:31:41 in Chinese the weekday is numbered 06:36:05 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joined. 09:58:25 -!- rodgort has joined. 10:03:43 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:13:29 [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41854&oldid=40843 * Elboza * (+213) /* Notable implementations */ 10:15:26 [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41855&oldid=41791 * Elboza * (+213) /* Normal implementations */ 10:16:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:21:26 writing mutation feels so wrong now ... 10:38:18 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:43:29 [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41856&oldid=41854 * Ais523 * (-213) Undo revision 41854 by [[Special:Contributions/Elboza|Elboza]] ([[User talk:Elboza|talk]]) this shouldn't be on both lists, and this one is the wrong one 11:02:26 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 11:02:26 -!- Patashu_ has joined. 11:09:25 -!- hjulle has joined. 11:15:37 -!- ^v^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:16:05 -!- ^v^v has 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*.split). 12:19:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (*.net *.split). 12:19:10 -!- intgr has quit (*.net *.split). 12:19:10 -!- elliott has quit (*.net *.split). 12:19:10 -!- incomprehensibly has quit (*.net *.split). 12:19:10 -!- rsal has quit (*.net *.split). 12:19:11 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split). 12:20:58 -!- perrier has joined. 12:20:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:20:58 -!- intgr has joined. 12:20:58 -!- rsal has joined. 12:20:58 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:20:58 -!- elliott has joined. 12:20:58 -!- incomprehensibly has joined. 12:20:58 -!- quintopia has joined. 12:22:45 -!- boily has quit (Quit: THERAPEUTIC CHICKEN). 12:34:33 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 12:37:24 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:38:16 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin. 12:43:18 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 13:00:14 Officially learnt about the "Fundamental Theorem of Linear Transformations" today 13:00:45 It seems very similar to what I know as the "Fundamental Theorem of Group Homomorphisms" 13:01:08 Both are S/Ker(phi) ~= Im(phi) 13:01:12 Is there something deeper going on? 13:03:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:04:28 -!- rodgort has joined. 13:04:29 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:05:10 -!- rodgort has quit (Excess Flood). 13:05:30 Taneb: sure, a vector space is a group, and all vector space homomorphisms are group homomorphisms as well (but not the reverse) 13:05:43 but that's not really "something deeper" I guess 13:05:52 b_jonas, but a vector space has more conditions than a group 13:05:59 Taneb: yes, so? 13:06:12 And not all group homomorphisms end up as linear transformations 13:06:32 sure 13:06:57 Oh wait 13:06:58 Yeah 13:10:37 -!- Frooxius has joined. 13:10:53 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:17:01 -!- TieSoul_ has changed nick to TieHomework. 13:22:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:27:33 -!- Koen__ has joined. 13:30:35 -!- GeekDude has joined. 13:47:09 Taneb: I was under the impression that that was what category theory was for, though I don't know enough category theory to verify that 13:49:22 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar. 13:50:50 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:51:25 -!- Tritonio has joined. 13:54:16 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 14:15:54 -!- spiette has joined. 14:29:35 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:37:30 -!- Lymia has joined. 14:42:00 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 15:00:35 -!- skj3gg has joined. 15:15:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:17:03 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:45:55 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…). 15:55:21 Hang on 15:55:26 I've just reread the end of IWC backwards 15:55:39 * oerjan cannot quite stop quibbling about the Typeable bug 15:56:10 -!- skj3gg has joined. 15:56:39 Taneb: so it's about several groups of people falling from prosperity, through great disaster, and into a continued life of trouble and chaos? 15:57:02 oerjan, it made me realise that Choking may in fact be DMM 15:58:11 wat 15:58:21 Or... hang on 15:58:26 DMM's body and Hitler's brain 15:59:10 http://irregularwebcomic.net/3147.html http://irregularwebcomic.net/3158.html http://irregularwebcomic.net/3165.html 15:59:54 ooh 16:00:46 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:01:18 -!- ais523 has quit. 16:01:35 that _does_ look deliberate indeed. 16:03:48 -!- adu has joined. 16:04:16 I need to reread IWC 16:10:59 -!- mihow has joined. 16:12:38 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 16:13:31 what? no way 16:13:42 DMM is present as a self-insert in IWC and he's not the same as Choking 16:13:55 he time travels and almost kills himself or something 16:20:46 b_jonas: it's actually hitler who is the same as choking 16:20:49 hth 16:21:04 also, there's not "almost" about it. 16:21:08 *-t 16:23:11 are you all regular fans of iwc? 16:23:26 definitely 16:23:31 yes 16:23:58 it was the first webcomic i read, and i learned about it on this channel. 16:24:24 Taneb and b_jonas traveled in the opposite direction :P 16:26:26 Yeah, it was my first webcomic, and eventually got me into esolangs and actually CS as a whole 16:26:29 I used to like IWC but got bored around the 2700 strips mark. 16:27:09 Is there something deeper going on? <-- yes. there are versions of those theorems for universal algebras. 16:27:18 the first webcomic I read was StickManStickMan, now at http://stickman.qntm.org/index.php , which was already completed when I first read it 16:27:21 Universal... algebra? 16:27:33 heh 16:28:03 Taneb: think of groups, monoids, rings, vector spaces etc. as all being special cases of operations on a set 16:28:37 oerjan: do you mean K-vector spaces for a particular fixed field K? 16:28:45 b_jonas: well yeah 16:28:55 if _some_ of the operations give you a group, then you have kernels, and the theorems have essentially the same form. otherwise you need to use "congruences". 16:29:42 but otherwise it's quite analogous regardless of the type of algebra. 16:30:20 oerjan: ok, and how much extra do you need for the form on finitely generated vector spaces, where you can also claim that the dimension of of the source space is equal to the dimension of the kernel plus the dimension of the image? 16:30:51 b_jonas: ouch. that doesn't even hold for modules i think, so quite specific. 16:31:05 modules aren't always free and so don't have a basis. 16:31:28 oerjan: yes, it's specific for vector spaces, but quite important 16:31:47 I'm not sure what happens in infinite dimensional spaces 16:31:58 i think it may be summarized as "all vector spaces are free" 16:32:07 although i'm not sure if that's enough 16:32:13 -!- S1 has joined. 16:32:45 in fact there's probably a module counterexample about free submodules of free modules behaving nicely 16:33:08 my memory of that stuff is old 16:33:18 you don't really have a sane dimension in modules 16:33:37 not even when finitely generated 16:34:27 Infinite vector spaces supposedly have a basis and so they have a dimension, though I've never tried to understand the proof for this. It's an axiom of choice thing. 16:34:44 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…). 16:34:52 I take it on faith. 16:35:04 int-e: you seem to have become bored about when dmm started wrapping things up for the finale... 16:35:51 -!- skj3gg has joined. 16:35:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:37:03 I'm not sure what happens in infinite dimensional spaces <-- i think it still holds as long as you sum cardinalities. of course you cannot subtract then. 16:37:12 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 16:37:57 b_jonas: yeah it's basically about using zorn's lemma to increase your independent set until it generates everything. 16:38:12 nothing complicated, actually. 16:38:55 just it needs the big cannon 16:40:21 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 16:40:27 Meh, the zorn lemma isn't the big cannon. 16:40:30 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Client Quit). 16:40:34 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:40:51 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 16:40:57 Not when the calculus guys use basic theorems whose proofs are really complicated, unlike that of the zorn lemma. 16:40:58 well then there's nothing complicated at all :P 16:41:09 oerjan: yeah maybe he should've done that sooner then *ducks* 16:41:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:41:38 * oerjan swats int-e -----### 16:42:41 well, http://mathoverflow.net/a/99568/5340 states zorn lemma is big guns in the sense I claim it's not 16:46:22 Taneb: anyway, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isomorphism_theorem#General 16:46:47 also, aren't there two or three fundamental theorems? 16:47:08 three, see link 16:47:57 the one discussed here is the first 16:48:27 ok wait, I don't think I want to do universal algebra directly, so let me look at the group ones, those I'll probably recognize 16:50:00 Yes, I think I've heared of these for groups. 16:50:49 And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rank%E2%80%93nullity_theorem is the one about vector space dimensions 16:51:28 -!- aretecode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:52:20 -!- oren has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:53:11 i was about to link that 16:55:20 to get an intuition for the general, you need to understand that kernels/normal subgroups/ideals are all specific ways of encoding a congruence 16:55:25 `? isomorphism theorem 16:55:27 isomorphism theorem? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:55:31 `? algebra 16:55:32 algebra? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:56:11 oerjan: yes, that's true 16:56:35 you need that to understand normal subgroups and ideals in rings in first place 16:57:19 oerjan, at least in the first case that's just stating the standard definition with slightly different terms 16:57:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:57:39 i dunno about the second and third because, well, who actually gives a shit about the second and third isomorphism theorems 16:57:39 or maybe right ideals 16:57:49 Phantom__Hoover: what? they're useful 16:58:12 even my galois theory lecturer didn't actually know them 16:58:33 that's not an excuse 16:58:39 -!- GeekDude has changed nick to }{FISH}. 16:59:09 also, defining a congruence as a subalgebra of A x A may be elegant, but maybe not the most pedagogic way. 16:59:35 also, i agree with both of you, they're useful but i can only remember the first :P 17:00:21 without straining my brain, anyhow 17:00:43 I mean, you use them all the time without referring to them explicitly 17:00:44 the second and third are useful properties of algebraic quotients; the first fundamentally encapsulates what algebraic quotients are 17:00:57 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…). 17:01:21 anyway, should be going -> 17:01:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:01:47 i remember when i saw the thing about short exact sequences and quotients in hatcher it seemed like witchcraft, even though it's fairly simple 17:01:52 which is the usual way algebra works 17:02:09 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:07:33 b_jonas: you can actually do a lot of things with ideals without understanding they have anything to do with congruences 17:08:06 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:09:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:13:35 (I know that because I didn't) 17:14:31 -!- oren has joined. 17:14:53 random thought: why are there so many brainfuck derivatives and so few Turing-machine derivatives on the wiki? 17:17:09 They're basically the same thing, technically. 17:17:59 Brainfuck with an endless tape is just a specific kind of turing machine, as is P''. 17:18:03 well that's my point! but Turing-machines are historically more relevant, and in my opinion, more fun 17:21:07 It is very easy to compile brainfuck or P'' into Turing machines as each instruction would easily correspond to one state, although sometimes you can merge states 17:22:30 I'm just saying 17:24:55 -!- rodgort has joined. 17:30:09 Brainfuck is easier to derive something from 17:30:51 -!- }{FISH} has changed nick to GeekDude. 17:31:12 I just mean the reverse is also true. 17:31:38 Any turing machine could be described in a way that makes it look like a Brainfuck derivative. 17:31:46 People just go with BF b/c rude. 17:32:05 Also brainfuck is easy to understand for nonmathy people 17:32:52 because it is the ultimate simplification of the imperative, structured paradigm 17:33:43 P" is actually simpler. 17:33:50 true. 17:35:06 Though it does require that epople write ?. 17:35:13 but turing machines involve symbols and states and rules, where BF has numbers and characters in the code 17:35:20 Which as you can see isn't even an ASCII character. 17:35:59 `unidecode ? 17:36:00 ​[U+003F QUESTION MARK] 17:36:16 ummmm... 17:36:19 It's a lambda. 17:36:45 this is a lamda: λ 17:37:57 You can make the P'' version with ASCII though 17:39:23 Hm... Is it P" or P'' 17:39:49 or P`` 17:39:59 it's P~~ 17:40:04 or P^^ 17:40:06 or P|| 17:40:07 or P++ 17:40:09 or P-- 17:40:12 or P// 17:40:17 \o/ 17:40:17 | 17:40:17 | 17:40:17 |\ 17:40:17 /< 17:40:18 "nonmathy people" know what a decision tree is, and that looks exactly like an automaton 17:40:39 nonmathy people probably don't care about this stuff 17:40:40 whereas ++++[-] doesn't look like much 17:40:50 a very good point 17:42:01 Koen: I mean people who are qualified to take Game Development 101 but not Game Theory 101 17:42:07 demathification 17:42:22 (also by decision tree I probably meant flow chart) 17:42:29 yeah 17:43:09 I don't think so? 17:43:27 A flow chart would more complex than a simple automaton. 17:43:32 Although I annoy the hell out of my dad by incessantly referring to my game development course as "Game Theory" 17:44:10 heh 17:48:39 With the course naming problems at UofT, the course that should be named "Operations Research" is named Algorithm Design, Analysis, and Complexity 17:48:56 So I might not have been wrong 17:54:42 To be fair, Operations Research sounds like a course where you research military operations. 17:58:05 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:01:24 -!- ^v^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:01:50 -!- ^v^v has joined. 18:12:29 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 18:15:31 -!- skj3gg has joined. 18:17:02 -!- FreeFull has quit. 18:17:10 -!- arjanb has joined. 18:24:20 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:32:26 -!- Koen__ has quit (Quit: Koen__). 18:34:43 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 18:37:12 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to Beself. 18:37:29 -!- shikhin has quit (Disconnected by services). 18:37:36 -!- Beself has changed nick to shikhin. 18:40:00 -!- rodgort has joined. 18:40:04 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…). 18:41:03 -!- skj3gg has joined. 18:42:08 -!- skj3gg has quit (Client Quit). 18:42:28 -!- bb010g has joined. 18:44:23 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1). 18:46:06 -!- rodgort has quit (Excess Flood). 18:52:47 -!- rodgort has joined. 18:54:26 -!- rodgort has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:57:34 -!- skj3gg has joined. 19:06:43 -!- oren has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:15:55 Is it possible to make up an orthodox Magic: the Puzzling where player 1 has a way to gain any amount of life, but only once, and they win if they can set their life total to a Collatz counterexample? 19:20:22 (And otherwise they cannot possibly win) 19:22:21 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 19:23:35 -!- oren has joined. 19:24:22 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 19:25:40 -!- `^_^v has joined. 19:34:02 -!- oren has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:42:17 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: welp, see you later.). 19:51:52 -!- rodgort has joined. 19:56:59 [wiki] [[Wct]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41857 * Mihip * (+1672) Created page with "Wct is hex numeric system analog, but fully consists entirely of the letters. WARNING! Writing a program on it will blow your mind. Wct editor - machine code editor for Wct. =..." 19:58:39 [wiki] [[Wct]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41858&oldid=41857 * Mihip * (+4) /* Notes */ 20:12:43 -!- monotone has joined. 20:13:45 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:16:25 -!- mihow has joined. 20:18:51 [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41859&oldid=41809 * Mihip * (+10) /* W */ 20:23:28 -!- rodgort has joined. 20:50:03 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:55:36 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 20:58:31 -!- `^_^v has joined. 21:24:16 -!- Froox has joined. 21:27:54 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:33:20 -!- TieHomework has changed nick to TieSoul. 21:33:40 -!- oren has joined. 21:40:04 -!- oren has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:51:52 -!- oren has joined. 22:08:06 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 22:13:57 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:16:13 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:18:09 -!- adu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:19:02 -!- oren has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:24:46 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:37:52 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 22:38:41 -!- nys has joined. 22:45:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:47:09 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:50:19 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:50:23 -!- adu has joined. 22:51:26 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 22:55:55 http://bertfreudenberg.github.io/SqueakJS/ 23:02:42 heh. I was just thinking about writing a library for .js strings and then clicked here and now there's Squeak. 23:09:18 -!- FreeFull has joined. 23:09:31 Nice. 23:13:11 I thought about implementing string specific versions of the usual first-class functions, you know. So you could do like "string".map().filter() or whatever. 23:16:45 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 23:17:54 -!- mihow has joined. 23:17:54 -!- Froox has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:17:57 -!- Froo has joined. 23:18:02 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:19:54 I'm sure someone's already written that, but it would be a fun learning project. 23:30:04 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:30:48 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 23:34:58 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:36:22 -!- Froox has joined. 23:36:27 -!- Froo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:37:05 -!- Lymia has joined. 23:38:39 -!- Froo has joined. 23:42:15 -!- Froox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:42:51 -!- bb010g has joined. 23:47:31 zzo38: if the collatz counterexample can be one which grows indefinitely rather than looping, and if the win condition has to be detected in finite time, then i don't see how you can possibly distinguish that from a number that just takes a very long time to reach 1 23:48:05 (i say this knowing very little about MtG) 23:48:42 @tell zzo38 if the collatz counterexample can be one which grows indefinitely rather than looping, and if the win condition has to be detected in finite time, then i don't see how you can possibly distinguish that from a number that just takes a very long time to reach 1 23:48:43 Consider it noted. 23:53:29 -!- AndoDaan has joined.