←2015-02-14 2015-02-15 2015-02-16→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:09:45 -!- yorick has joined.
00:10:08 -!- yorick has changed nick to Guest20901.
00:13:56 -!- Guest20901 has quit (Client Quit).
00:14:22 -!- augur has joined.
00:14:48 -!- yorick_ has joined.
00:15:11 -!- yorick_ has changed nick to Guest64625.
00:16:22 -!- Guest64625 has quit (Client Quit).
00:16:52 -!- yorick__ has joined.
00:20:20 -!- yorick__ has quit (Changing host).
00:20:21 -!- yorick__ has joined.
00:21:33 -!- yorick__ has changed nick to yorick.
00:29:21 <Taneb> I seem to be going to Edinburgh the weekend after next
00:29:39 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, why are train tickets to Edinburgh like twice as expensive as train tickets to Hexham?
00:29:50 <Taneb> Is it because Edinburgh is, in fact, twice as far away from here as Hexham?
00:29:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i think it's something to do with that, yeah
00:30:16 <Phantom_Hoover> of course there's also the customs duty on importing englishness
00:30:59 <Taneb> Am I allowed to protest that I am in fact only 50% English?
00:31:17 <zzo38> Is that relevant?
00:31:26 <Taneb> I do not know
00:31:30 <zzo38> I suppose you can ask
00:32:34 <Vorpal> Taneb, price is generally roughly correlated with the length of travel yes. In most parts of the world at least.
00:33:34 <oerjan> god, google map's ui has got annoying
00:33:38 <Phantom_Hoover> the trains tend to be so empty after newcastle it wouldn't be unexpected if they charged less, though
00:33:54 <Taneb> Vorpal, I was mostly surprised at the price because I've ended up with an instinct for train ticket prices entirely based on the York <-> Hexham route
00:34:04 <oerjan> all i want to do is pan in such a way that i can see edinburgh, hexham and york simultaneously :(
00:34:25 <Taneb> oerjan, Hexham is precisely the midpoint of the two cities
00:36:06 <oerjan> no GM, when i double click on the map i _don't_ want you to zoom out to the whole UK
00:38:24 <oerjan> what is the point of showing a smooth zooming if i cannot _stop_ it at an intermediate point
00:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm more familiar with the edinburgh-midlands routes
00:38:50 <Phantom_Hoover> which, if you've been very good this year and said the appropriate prayers, might be slightly under £60
00:44:20 <Taneb> `quote cage
00:44:20 <HackEgo> No output.
00:44:32 <Taneb> @help quote
00:44:32 <lambdabot> quote <nick>: Quote <nick> or a random person if no nick is given
00:44:48 <Taneb> Bah, I think the quote I am after is on lambdabot and I do not know how to search
00:48:32 <oerjan> @quote cage
00:48:32 <lambdabot> No quotes match. And you call yourself a Rocket Surgeon!
00:48:51 <oerjan> oh
00:49:01 <oerjan> @quote monoid
00:49:01 <lambdabot> thermoplyae says: <thermoplyae> someone finally pointed out to me that a monad is an monoid-object in an endofunctor category <thermoplyae> i have no idea how i've never seen that before
00:49:07 <oerjan> definitely not just nicks
00:51:14 <Taneb> Actually, no, it was on HackEgo
00:51:27 <Taneb> Something about a cage with a lambda underneath used as a trap
00:51:30 <Taneb> `quote trap
00:51:34 <HackEgo> 225) <Gregor> !bfjoust furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls http://sprunge.us/eKWa * Sgeo had no idea that Gregor was hetero
00:51:48 <Taneb> ...
00:52:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:53:11 <Jafet> @quote cage.?
00:53:11 <lambdabot> No quotes match. I am sorry.
00:53:17 <Jafet> @quote cage.*
00:53:17 <lambdabot> No quotes match. :(
00:53:25 <Jafet> @quote .*cage
00:53:25 <lambdabot> No quotes match. I am sorry.
00:59:29 <oerjan> `quote lambda
00:59:33 <HackEgo> 103) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough \ 332) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs. \ 410) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later
00:59:50 <oerjan> `` quote lambda | tail -10
00:59:51 <HackEgo> 103) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough \ 332) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs. \ 410) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later
01:00:04 <ais523> `` quote lambda | tail -1
01:00:05 <HackEgo> 1203) <Bike> scheme doesn't have any control structures, you can make them yourself out of call/cc, lambdas, and arrogance
01:00:07 <oerjan> `` quote lambda | tail -5
01:00:08 <HackEgo> 410) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace \ 497) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell \ 525) <Taneb> I think this
01:00:21 <ais523> `pastequotes lambda
01:00:29 <oerjan> `` quote lambda | tail -2
01:00:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.9373
01:00:30 <HackEgo> 892) <shachaf> FOUR SIMULTANEOUS TYPE SYSTEMS IN A SINGLE ROTATION OF THE LAMBDA CUBE \ 1203) <Bike> scheme doesn't have any control structures, you can make them yourself out of call/cc, lambdas, and arrogance
01:00:41 <oerjan> `` quote lambda | tail -3
01:00:55 <HackEgo> 525) <Taneb> I think this has taught us one thing. We can't teach itidus20 lambda calculus by comittee \ 892) <shachaf> FOUR SIMULTANEOUS TYPE SYSTEMS IN A SINGLE ROTATION OF THE LAMBDA CUBE \ 1203) <Bike> scheme doesn't have any control structures, you can make them yourself out of call/cc, lambdas, and arrogance
01:00:58 <Taneb> Whatever happened to itidus
01:01:06 <Taneb> Like, after he left the channel
01:01:43 <ais523> 497 is still one of the best quotes ever
01:01:47 <oerjan> he probably transcended to a higher plane of confusion
01:02:37 <Vorpal> <oerjan> god, google map's ui has got annoying <-- website? app?
01:03:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, you could also try openstreetmap maybe?
01:03:40 <oerjan> website.
01:03:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, Hm yeah it doesn't do smooth scrolling fully afaik
01:04:06 <oerjan> well it was like, linked from the google result page for "york"
01:04:12 <zzo38> Is it possible to import openstreetmap data into SQLite?
01:04:54 <Vorpal> zzo38, probably, but oh god the performance?
01:04:54 <Vorpal> Check their wiki
01:05:32 <Vorpal> iirc they use postgresql + postgis as their backend for vector data
01:06:45 <Vorpal> `quote 497
01:06:49 <HackEgo> 497) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell
01:07:09 <zzo38> Write a RVTP server for PostgreSQL so that it can access with RVTP client, and then write a RVTP client for SQLite.
01:07:10 <Vorpal> ais523, yeah that is pretty good
01:07:23 <Vorpal> zzo38, wtf is rvtp?
01:07:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:08:04 <zzo38> Some protocol I made up but isn't implemented yet; it is short for "Remote Virtual Table Protocol"
01:08:21 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services).
01:08:21 -!- Patashu_ has joined.
01:08:34 <Vorpal> Well whatever, I'm not sure anybody cares about importing gigabytes of map data in sqlite.
01:09:02 <Vorpal> And frankly I don't see the point. OpenStreetMap has some good query tools written for it already
01:09:47 <Vorpal> http://overpass-turbo.eu/ for example
01:10:56 <Taneb> `quote kmcbait
01:10:57 <HackEgo> 951) <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, are you just trying to post kmcbait... * Fiora imagines a cardboard box propped up by a stick with a pile of monads inside. <elliott> Fiora: that is actually what Haskell is.
01:11:00 <Taneb> FOUND IT
01:11:46 <zzo38> Still it is using a webpage and then you might want to access by command-line
01:26:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
01:43:24 <zzo38> Do you know anything about Turtle RDF formats?
01:43:30 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:54:20 -!- boily has joined.
02:06:04 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ABOLUTIVE CHICKEN).
02:09:56 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:04:21 -!- sebbu has joined.
03:04:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
03:04:59 -!- sebbu has joined.
03:14:25 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:20:18 -!- oren has joined.
03:24:05 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
03:24:49 -!- ^v^v has joined.
03:27:53 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:00:59 -!- lokita23 has joined.
04:01:36 -!- ^v has joined.
04:01:36 -!- lokita23 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:17:27 <zzo38> A virtual table in SQLite could have read-only fields, write-only fields, and compare-only fields.
04:20:28 -!- not^v has joined.
04:23:18 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:24:34 -!- not^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:25:23 -!- not^v has joined.
04:27:53 -!- bb010g has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:29:08 -!- nyuszika7h has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:30:16 -!- not^v has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
04:30:42 -!- nyuszika7h has joined.
04:38:29 -!- bb010g has joined.
04:54:19 -!- nyuszika7h has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:55:48 -!- skarn_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:56:02 -!- nyuszika7h has joined.
04:56:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:56:13 -!- fractal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:56:21 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:56:29 -!- arjanb has quit (Quit: .).
04:57:39 -!- skarn has joined.
05:01:48 -!- fractal has joined.
05:04:19 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
05:46:10 -!- not^v has joined.
05:46:20 -!- ^v has joined.
05:46:24 -!- ^v has quit (Client Quit).
05:47:48 -!- not^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:57:23 -!- ^v has joined.
06:10:04 -!- oren_ has joined.
06:10:25 -!- oren has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:11:28 <oren_> I recieved an awesome book today. Nelson's Japanese-English Character Dictionary. It is a bit outdated, but beautiful and easy to look kanji up in.
06:16:04 <ais523> hmm, this reminds me
06:16:14 <ais523> some of the art contributed to NetHack 4 contains what are apparently Chinese characters
06:16:21 <ais523> and I want to make sure that they don't say anything rude or out-of-place
06:16:37 <zzo38> You should try to learn what it does mean anyways
06:17:40 <ais523> yes
06:17:46 <oren_> Isn't nethack a text-based game?
06:18:28 <zzo38> I think you can do icon-mode too though?
06:18:41 -!- not^v has joined.
06:19:19 <oren_> zzo38: googled it, yeah apparently there is a mode with actual graphics
06:20:19 <ais523> oren_: I'm implementing both multiple graphical modes, and multiple text modes
06:20:36 <ais523> anyway, here it is: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/unknown-chinese.png
06:20:53 <ais523> I'd put it into Google Translate or the like, but I don't know how to translate the image into ideograms
06:21:27 <ais523> especially given how small the image is
06:21:30 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
06:21:40 <zzo38> I suppose multiple text mode can be ASCII mode, PC mode, VT100 mode, and Unicode xterm mode, and also colors or monochrome, and there are some other kind of details too I think; would that be it?
06:21:44 <ais523> anyone have ideas for an OCR that works on Chinese?
06:22:20 <zzo38> I don't have any OCR, but I know there is servers to look up by radicals and other methods that you can pick from the form
06:22:28 <ais523> zzo38: well, currently the user specifies what characters they want; there are two implemented modes for this, one selection uses only characters that exist in ASCII, the other uses only characters that exist in codepage 437
06:22:36 <ais523> and then the game engine works out how to render it
06:22:39 <oren_> last character is 少 meaning "small" not sure about the other two
06:22:52 <ais523> no I don't think it is
06:23:00 <ais523> the top-left stroke is sloping top left to bottom right
06:23:05 <ais523> not bottom left to top right
06:23:20 <ais523> (also flavour implies that this is Chinese rather than Japanese)
06:23:24 <zzo38> You also have to look if it is Simplified Chinese or if it is Traditional Chinese
06:23:31 <ais523> I don't know, is the answer
06:23:35 <ais523> it may well be meaningless
06:23:41 <ais523> I just don't want it to be meaningful in an offensive way
06:24:21 <zzo38> (My opinion is that Traditional Chinese is better; however, inside of China it is usually Simplified is used)
06:24:52 <zzo38> What are those Chinese icons used for anyways?
06:24:57 <ais523> zzo38: I think the majority use is different between mainland China and Taiwan, isn't it?
06:25:00 <ais523> and they decorate a wall
06:25:04 <ais523> in the tileset called "Chinese wall"
06:25:10 <ais523> which is why I think it's meant to be Chinese
06:26:04 <zzo38> OK
06:26:38 <zzo38> ais523: As far as I understand, Simplified is used in China, and Traditional is for everywhere else in the world
06:27:08 <oren_> Japan has its own less simple simplifications
06:27:24 -!- v^ has joined.
06:27:42 <oren_> they are called 新字体 (shinjitai)
06:28:06 <zzo38> oren_: Yes I know that too, and theirs aren't as difficult understanding as Simplified Chinese, I think.
06:28:50 <oren_> zzo38: I can see that. In my new book the traditional version is listed beside each character and they are usually barely different
06:29:44 -!- ^v^v has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
06:30:03 <oren_> one of the bigger chages is 竜 from 龍
06:31:30 <oren_> but most of the time it is just changing whether strokes are connected or not, or whether they cross another stroke or not
06:32:19 -!- ^v has joined.
06:35:22 -!- not^v has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
06:37:17 <ais523> hmm, now I'm halfway though character map looking for them
06:37:19 <oren_> I tried linedict.com but I can't find anything that looks like the first two characters
06:39:07 <ais523> I guess the first one could be 牜?
06:39:11 <ais523> `unicode 牜
06:39:17 <HackEgo> U+725C CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-725C \ UTF-8: e7 89 9c UTF-16BE: 725c Decimal: &#29276; \ 牜 (牜) \ Uppercase: U+725C \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
06:39:29 <ais523> probably not though
06:40:30 <oren_> That's like a halfwidth version of 牛 which means cow
06:41:05 <ais523> the second one is pretty hopeless, I agree
06:41:42 <oren_> It could be 夶
06:42:01 <oren_> but it doesn't really work
06:42:03 <ais523> I don't think there's a great match for the third one either
06:42:22 <ais523> `unicode 夶
06:42:24 <HackEgo> U+5936 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5936 \ UTF-8: e5 a4 b6 UTF-16BE: 5936 Decimal: &#22838; \ 夶 (夶) \ Uppercase: U+5936 \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
06:42:34 <oren_> in general chinese characters don't often have a shape like < in them
06:42:52 <ais523> yep, many of the shapes there are quite different from anything I'm seeing in the Unicode list
06:43:18 <ais523> if we go by slope directions of the lines (which are very clear in the third shape), the only option is 氵
06:43:29 <ais523> but I have a feeling that would have been drawn differently
06:43:32 <oren_> If those are chinese characters then they are pixelated out of recognition
06:43:37 <ais523> yep
06:43:49 <ais523> in that case, I'm probably OK with them, although perhaps we should actually spell something appropriate
06:43:51 <ais523> or at least amusing
06:44:31 <ais523> and 氵 is crazily common, at least, and not particularly awkward
06:44:41 <ais523> (it was nice of Unicode to give definitions)
06:44:43 <oren_> that is the water radical
06:44:52 <ais523> yep
06:45:35 <ais523> in retrospect, this doesn't actually look very much like a CJK language at all
06:45:41 <ais523> and perhaps is failing to perform its function due to that?
06:47:29 <oren_> most recognizable characters would become orange blocks at that scale...
06:51:18 <oren_> take 街道 which means street for example...
06:54:06 <ais523> isn't that two ideograms?
06:54:07 <ais523> but yes
06:56:45 <oren_> yes two. In chinese Jiēdào. In japanese it is pronounced kaidou and means highway
06:58:11 <ais523> hmm, how cross-intelligable are written chinese and japanese?
06:58:59 <oren_> only a little.
06:59:18 <ais523> like french and italian?
07:00:14 <oren_> the japanese-chinese words are mostly ones from the middle ages, so their meanings have shifted, and Mandarin has evolved in the meantime. Japanese and Classical Chinese are much closer
07:00:31 <ais523> so yes, pretty much exactly like french and italian then
07:00:52 <oren_> More like italian and english
07:01:20 <oren_> because japanese has a superstrate of chinese over a japanese substrate
07:01:22 <ais523> sometimes I play computer games set to a foreign language, for fun
07:01:56 <oren_> like english has a latinate superstrate over a germanic substrate
07:03:57 <oren_> ais523: yeah that can be fun
07:07:03 <oren_> The most annoying thing my parents used to do is speak in italian french or spanish, depending on their mood, in order so I couldn't tell what they were saying.
07:08:20 <oren_> it was really annoying to 8 year old me
07:10:14 <oerjan> is that why you learned japanese twh
07:10:54 <oren_> oerjan: It may be why I practice it with my best friend in my dad's office
07:11:53 <oren_> きゃははは、お父さん、分からないか?
07:13:59 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/Akc6r.gif).
07:14:51 <oren_> nice gif
07:15:20 <ais523> wait, you follow random links in people's quit messages?
07:15:26 <ais523> that's almost like clicking on spam
07:15:47 <oren_> ais523: I do that too
07:16:38 <oren_> I have noscript, adblocker, and this computer is total crap anyway
07:18:05 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:18:29 <oren_> It's like my dad agressively driving in a 15 yearold ford focus
07:20:01 <oren_> Aww no gif
07:27:40 <oren_> Why can't I smelt cobalt from cobaltite
07:56:06 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
08:18:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Because of the kobolds hth).
08:35:21 -!- shikhin has joined.
09:19:30 -!- naturalog has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
09:20:06 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
09:21:26 -!- tromp__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
09:21:26 -!- jameseb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
09:26:06 -!- glogbot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
09:26:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:26:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:26:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:27:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:27:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:27:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:27:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:27:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:27:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:28:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:28:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:28:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:29:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:29:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:29:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:30:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:30:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:30:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:31:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:31:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:31:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:32:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:32:04 -!- glogbot has joined.
09:32:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:32:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
09:33:35 -!- aloril has joined.
09:38:19 <zzo38> I found some papers on which I have written several kind of chess variants. One is a complex dimensional chess variant.
09:38:41 <b_jonas> what
09:39:09 <zzo38> There is also one where the bishops are now beavers and the king can use a shotgun but only if he has a license.
09:40:02 <b_jonas> you can find lots of chess variants on the internet.
09:40:08 <b_jonas> some of them are crazy.
09:42:07 <zzo38> I know and many I have put in too.
09:44:31 <zzo38> There is also "Bland Chess" from my brother; no diagonal moves are allowed (although knights can still move normally).
09:45:21 <zzo38> This means that pawns cannot capture, queens are same as rooks, bishops cannot move at all, and the king moves only one space orthogonally.
09:48:10 <zzo38> There is also a game "Chess With Checkers Added" that both me and my brother have simultaneously invented independently; we both invented the same game. At first he just put the checkers in front of the pawns as a joke but then we both made up the same rules for the game that is set up like that.
09:51:43 <zzo38> Do you make up chess variant too?
09:59:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: hehe, "bland chess" reminds me to two variants Smullyan mentions: one where every piece can move only in a way that it stays on the same colored square that it starts from, so pawns can only move double or (non en-passant) capture,
09:59:23 <ais523> and knights are just stuck?
09:59:26 <b_jonas> and the less restricted version where knights can't move but other figures aren't restricte.
09:59:30 <b_jonas> yes, knights are stuck.
10:00:20 <ais523> clearly we need Evil Chess where the pieces sometimes explode when you move them, and arbitrary time limits are placed on you every now and then, and the rules aren't what you think they are, and there are cutscenes
10:01:04 <b_jonas> cutscenes!
10:01:06 <b_jonas> hehehe
10:01:17 <zzo38> Another idea if something I wanted to learn how to make up is the chess variant where the commands of INTERCAL are included.
10:01:32 <b_jonas> lol
10:01:38 <b_jonas> chess with intercal commands
10:02:01 <b_jonas> (d4) DO COME FROM d2
10:08:12 -!- CrazyM4n has joined.
10:09:27 -!- naturalo1 has changed nick to naturalog.
10:09:30 <zzo38> Is it possible to make a C header file with macros having mangled names so that it can interface with C++ programming?
10:10:29 <ais523> zzo38: not macros, but you can do wrapper functions by using a separate C++ object file
10:10:47 <ais523> which basically has a bunch of C++ functions that call counterparts declared with extern "C"
10:11:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: it depends on the architecture
10:11:51 <zzo38> I wanted to do it without wrapper functions so that the function pointer is the same as the C function
10:11:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: on some compilers or systems, C++ symbols mangle to names that aren't valid in C because they contain weird characters
10:12:26 <b_jonas> wait, let me look up the specifics
10:12:32 <zzo38> On which systems are they? Is it possible with GNU C?
10:12:58 <b_jonas> a moment, I don't know off the top of my head, I just let the compiler and debugger deal with this stuff
10:13:42 <CrazyM4n> So I've been messing around with trying to reverse engineer /dev/input/mice for fun
10:13:47 <CrazyM4n> Did I miss anything? https://gist.github.com/CrazyM4n/553379cf3fa93721664f lol
10:13:51 <b_jonas> the MS compiler use @ signs in mangled names
10:14:05 <b_jonas> and ? signs too
10:14:26 <b_jonas> all C++-mangled names start with a ? sign
10:14:45 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
10:15:23 <b_jonas> on GNU C, it might be possible because it uses only alphanumeric and underscore characters in mangled names
10:15:47 <zzo38> But the C++ code might be compiled with a different compiler even though I am using GNU
10:16:21 <b_jonas> but of course such a thing might be somewhat fragile and dependent on the version of compiler and libstdc++ you're targetting, not because of the name mangling, but because of the other stuff like representation of library stuff and exceptions and other horrible things
10:16:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
10:16:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and?
10:16:58 <zzo38> I don't actually know what compiler and libc++ and stuff they are using
10:17:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: why don't you use the normal solution, that is, write the wrappers in C++?
10:17:38 <b_jonas> oh wait, wrong channel for that
10:17:56 <zzo38> Like I said maybe it is a different compiler, for one thing
10:18:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: anyway, if you wanted for MSVC, you could try writing in assembler directly
10:18:06 <b_jonas> rather than C
10:18:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, if you don't know the compiler then you can't compile C++ interfaces.
10:18:53 <b_jonas> you have to know the compiler type and version and architecture.
10:20:33 <zzo38> I believe their files are Microsoft but my files are GNU and I want to be able to interface them, preferably only the header file needs to change and the main file can be keep the same one even when interfacing with other C++ programs with other compilers and versions and architectures.
10:21:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: could you make C interfaces for your code, compiled with gnu, and a thin C++ wrapper for it, compiled with MSVC, possibly header-only with inline functions?
10:21:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: for MSVC, if you don't do this and you want to generate the mangled stuff yourself, you might also have to depend on which version of MSVC
10:22:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: if this is not esoteric stuff, then don't do that, and just write a wrapper they have to compile or include
10:22:47 <b_jonas> you can probably make the wrapper portable enough C++ and test it by compiling (including) it in a C++ program compiled with gnu C
10:23:10 <b_jonas> but even then, you can be burned by the various idiocies of the MS compiler regarding C++
10:24:27 <zzo38> I don't even know if I have MSVC, and if I do, I don't know what versions and other stuff
10:25:52 <zzo38> Also it is interfacing with a DLL
10:26:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but the DLL can have a C interface
10:26:43 <b_jonas> if you give them a thin wrapper they include or compile, then it can be mostly portable among compilers
10:26:51 <zzo38> The program expects to load a DLL file with C++ codes
10:27:09 <zzo38> But I want to write the DLL file with C codes
10:27:11 <b_jonas> well, a DLL with C++ interface can almost never be portable among multiple versions of MSVC, or among gcc and msvc
10:27:26 <b_jonas> so if you want to do that, then you'll have to ask what compiler they're using
10:28:04 <b_jonas> you also have to know the operating system type (windows or linux etc) and the CPU (x86 or x86_64)
10:32:53 -!- skarn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
10:33:09 -!- skarn has joined.
10:40:23 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
10:44:56 <ais523> oh no, I just realised
10:45:08 <ais523> the current realtime-viable glitch to the credits in Super Mario World
10:45:13 <ais523> spells out shellcode /using shells/
10:45:25 <ais523> why is this not an observation that I've seen elsewhere
10:47:48 <b_jonas> you mean koopa shells?
10:48:10 <ais523> yep
10:49:31 -!- Lymia has joined.
10:51:33 <b_jonas> nice
10:54:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MuEncy12345 * New user account
10:54:42 <ais523> ooh, those digits are in sequence
10:54:45 <ais523> probably not a spambot
10:58:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MuEncy12345/Island]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41902 * MuEncy12345 * (+785) Created page with "[[User:MuEncy12345/Colloquial|Colloquial]] abbr|eviation of [[User:MuEncy12345/island mu-molecule|Island mu-molecule]], or of User:MuEncy12345/island mu-unit|island mu-un..."
10:59:41 <ais523> oh no, it's a spambot
10:59:55 <ais523> and it looks like a copyright-infringing one, too
11:00:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:MuEncy12345/Island]]": copyright-infringing spam
11:00:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:MuEncy12345]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled): copyright-infringing spambot
11:00:55 <ais523> I have a feeling that it was planning to make a bunch of pages, all cross-linked
11:01:56 <ais523> "11:00, 15 February 2039"
11:02:03 <ais523> yay, they fixed the Y2038 bug
11:02:04 <vanila> http://mrob.com/pub/muency.html
11:02:14 <ais523> vanila: isn't that the link that was being spammed?
11:02:40 <ais523> why did you post it to the channel
11:04:15 <ais523> or, hmm
11:04:20 <ais523> definitely copyright infringement
11:04:27 <ais523> less sure on the spam, though, because it links to source
11:04:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] unblock * Ais523 * unblocked User:MuEncy12345: maybe not a spambot
11:05:07 -!- CrazyM4n has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:06:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:MuEncy12345]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41903 * Ais523 * (+568) warning
11:07:37 <vanila> http://mrob.com/cc-license.html
11:07:42 <vanila> you are free to copy and reuse any of this work as long as you tell people where it is from
11:08:23 <ais523> vanila: and it's noncommercial
11:08:35 <ais523> and you preserve copyright notices
11:08:50 <ais523> the wiki's copyright status outright claims a different copyright on everything posted there
11:09:00 <ais523> that is, that anything there can be reused for any purpose, no attribution required
11:09:13 <int-e> almost. "Content is available under CC0 public domain dedication unless otherwise noted."
11:10:06 <int-e> at least the way I'm reading that I could post an article under some other CC license (for example) if I explicitely state that in the article.
11:10:26 <ais523> that's just boilerplate that a wiki upgrade put on there
11:10:41 <ais523> the edit prompt requires a CC0 license
11:11:24 <int-e> ah. it's been a while.
11:11:42 <ais523> yep, bad MediaWiki default
11:11:51 <ais523> you can't go around changing the wiki's copyright status like that!
11:12:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Copyright]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41904 * Ais523 * (+30) a MediaWiki apparently put a bad (lack of) copyright notice on here; fixing that
11:12:27 <ais523> OK, fixed
11:12:46 <b_jonas> scary
11:12:56 <vanila> is solar power enough to keep a drone in the air
11:13:20 <ais523> vanila: I believe so, but it has to have a very weird form factor to make enough room for the solar panels
11:13:57 <b_jonas> probably no. if it was, birds would just eat the plants (moss, lichens) grown on their backs and wings rather than actively seeking out food
11:14:12 <vanila> haha
11:15:32 <vanila> what's new in esoland
11:16:29 <b_jonas> this shellcode with shells is a good enough joke that maybe you should ask the tasvideos guys to edit it into the description
11:16:41 <ais523> most people don't know what "shellcode" means
11:16:49 <ais523> and the TASvideos route doesn't use that method of setup
11:16:52 <vanila> oh the mario thing
11:16:54 <ais523> rather, it uses the controller ports
11:17:06 <b_jonas> oh
11:17:16 <b_jonas> do "most people" watch tases?
11:17:32 <vanila> Did you see a guy perform the exploit by hand?
11:17:35 <ais523> I think speedruns are more popular
11:17:38 <vanila> on a real SNES
11:17:40 <ais523> vanila: yep, it's been done by hand
11:17:45 <ais523> different setup, though
11:17:53 <ais523> there's actually a video explaining all the steps on YouTube
11:18:14 <vanila> I wonder how to find similar code exec type things in NES and gameb oy games
11:18:26 <b_jonas> oh, you said realtime-viable glitch
11:18:30 <b_jonas> that's much scarier
11:19:16 <b_jonas> I mean, it's not like GB pokémon where you can just edit memory in real time
11:19:36 <b_jonas> or Zelda OOT where they do memory corruption with items in real time
11:19:52 <b_jonas> but then
11:20:15 <b_jonas> apparently the GB Super Mario Land 2 memory corruption has been performed in real time too
11:20:25 <b_jonas> so I shouldn't be surprised by any of this anymore
11:22:23 <vanila> very interesting :))
11:22:43 <b_jonas> these real time speedrunners are crazy
11:23:07 <b_jonas> they find their way to perform glitches in real time
11:23:14 <b_jonas> develop very crazy techniques
11:23:23 <ais523> b_jonas: I do realtime speedrunning too
11:23:25 <ais523> in Neverwinter Nights
11:23:41 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, but how glitched?
11:24:10 <ais523> wall clips and item duping and exploiting broken scripts, mostly
11:24:12 <b_jonas> mind you, a not very glitched real time speedrun can be also amazing when the player demonstrates good technique
11:24:24 <b_jonas> I enjoy both kinds
11:24:28 <vanila> do you pull the scripts out of the game and study them?
11:24:40 <ais523> yes, there's a level editor that can read them
11:24:45 <vanila> cool :D
11:24:48 <ais523> although you can only use it on levels you've already completed
11:25:05 <ais523> (unless you just rename the files to make them think they're custom)
11:25:39 <b_jonas> on what console or operating system do you speedrun that?
11:25:50 <ais523> Windows 8.1
11:25:52 <b_jonas> (I think you mentioned this once already when I asked about silence spells)
11:25:53 <b_jonas> ok
11:26:05 <b_jonas> (but it could have been a different game)
11:37:16 -!- Tritonio has joined.
11:37:25 <J_Arcane> I think curly brace syntax might be ergonomically bad for me, at least on a Finnish keyboard. AltGr in general is a problematic key.
11:38:00 -!- TieSoul has changed nick to TieSchool.
11:38:10 -!- TieSchool has changed nick to TieSoul.
11:39:50 <vanila> ive made it so the [/{ and ]/} keys input ( and ) for me
11:39:52 <vanila> that makes lisp easier
11:39:57 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
11:41:19 <J_Arcane> vanila: Yeah, in DrRacket I have Å mapped to automatically output the () or [] pair I need for the context; but right now I'm doing JavaScript tutorials on codecademy; which doesn't even do auto-pairs.
11:52:14 <oren_> I think keyboards in general need more keys. I would put a few more rows above the number row
11:54:09 <oren_> although maybe that wouldn't help if you're a touch-typist
11:54:44 <oren_> I type with two fingers
11:56:18 <ais523> J_Arcane: () or [] are a little easier to type than Å (capslock shift-a a for me)
11:57:00 <J_Arcane> ais523: å, rather, which is a plain key on a Finnish keyboard.
11:57:06 <J_Arcane> Just to the right of p.
11:57:25 <ais523> that's where [ is already on a UK keyboard
11:57:55 <ais523> also UK keyboards have exactly two altgr keys, it used to be one
11:58:11 <ais523> one of them is a second |; on some OSes, it looks different from the original |
11:58:20 <ais523> and the other, added quite recently, is €
11:59:26 <oren_> å
11:59:37 <oren_> for me it is &aa
12:01:19 <ais523> I don't like my compose key to be a key that's otherwise useful
12:01:31 <ais523> caps lock's intended function is the least useful on the keyboard
12:01:34 <ais523> even pause is useful more often
12:02:11 <int-e> I use caps-lock for WM interaction.
12:03:26 <oren_> Caps lock is useful if you use it for IME switching
12:04:22 <int-e> (slightly perversely, I use the left windows key for äöüÄÖÜß...)
12:05:16 <oren_> Ι υσε
12:05:51 <ais523> super is a generally useful key, though
12:06:01 <ais523> also I use alt+super for WM interaction
12:06:03 <ais523> a single key tended to get typoed too often
12:06:18 <b_jonas> I use alt for WM interaction,
12:06:28 <b_jonas> but not all alt+key and alt+mouse combos are that, only some of curse
12:06:30 <oren_> That's what happens when you look at the screen instead of you keyboard
12:07:46 <b_jonas> alt plus any of (the function keys, escape, space) (possibly with other modifiers at the same times); alt plus right or middle drag; and alt plus control plus arrows and edit keys and numpad keys
12:08:36 <b_jonas> but I should refine the specific, in particular, I should make a system where shift isn't used for any WM function so I can reserve it as a modifier to act on a WM nested inside a VNC session
12:08:47 <b_jonas> does that sound crazy?
12:09:12 <int-e> b_jonas: no, I've run into that nesting problem myself
12:09:39 <oren_> I've never found a need to interact with a window manager with my keyboard... What would the point be?
12:09:51 <int-e> oren_: the mouse is so far away
12:10:10 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but is the particular desire to have two full sets of shortcuts (rather than either a limited set of shortcuts in the nested WM, or switch with numlock, or act on the nested stuff only when it's full screen) normal?
12:10:13 <oren_> It is in the centre of my kyboeard
12:10:17 -!- skj3gg has joined.
12:10:29 <b_jonas> hmm, actually switching with numlock might be an option
12:10:29 <int-e> oren_: well, mine isn't. I hate those knobs or touchpads.
12:12:10 <oren_> touch typists tend to hit the touchpad with their wrists but my typing style never has that problem
12:12:11 <int-e> (they don't have the same accurace and speed as a proper mouse, for me)
12:12:17 <int-e> *accuracy*
12:13:01 <oren_> well yeah for games I use an actual mouse
12:14:27 <oren_> i type in a position resting my fingers on the cdwq and mkop keys
12:14:41 <b_jonas> oren_: I interact with a mouse too sometimes, or with a combination of the keyboard modifiers and mouse
12:14:54 <oren_> well sort hovering over that area anyway
12:14:56 <b_jonas> oren_: I have set it up so I can do almost any function with either the keyboard or the mouse,
12:15:04 <Phantom_Hoover> oh good grief
12:15:14 <b_jonas> (well, not really, the window managers are like that by default, I've just modified the settings a bit)
12:15:19 <Phantom_Hoover> all this time i'd thought the david mitchell who wrote cloud atlass was the comedian
12:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> *atlas
12:15:35 <b_jonas> except of course restoring a full screen window, which you have to do with the keyboard because there's no WM area left on
12:16:02 <b_jonas> but I rarely full screen windows, only for games or watching movies, when I don't want to interact with the WM for a while
12:16:42 <b_jonas> I have, however, spent some time to be able to make the WM are very small so it doesn't waste vertical screen estate
12:21:08 -!- oren_ has changed nick to oren.
12:22:57 <oren> Phantom_Hoover: whatver. I only recently found out that "led zeppelin" is not the name of a guitarist
12:24:46 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined.
12:25:01 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…).
12:30:50 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
12:33:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: buying lunch).
13:07:20 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:08:17 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
13:11:00 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
13:16:28 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:18:35 <ais523> so, I started working on azip again
13:19:04 <ais523> and found a really elegant algorithm for "find all substrings that appear more than once in a given string" that runs in O(n log n log n) time
13:20:22 <ais523> now I'm wondering where to start looking to see if it's already known
13:23:28 <vanila> that sounds really interesting!!
13:24:49 <ais523> I'm planning to use it to make the new version of azip
13:24:55 <ais523> or maybe just a better zlib encoder
13:26:07 <ais523> azip is a compression algo Iwas working on a while back
13:26:25 <ais523> it's about comparable with bzip2 (and much better than gzip)
13:28:50 -!- AnotherTest_ has joined.
13:28:57 <ais523> oh, it assumes that the input string can be indexed in O(1), which might or might not be true in practice
13:29:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
13:29:27 -!- AnotherTest_ has changed nick to AnotherTest.
13:29:32 <ais523> otherwise, you'd have to build a binary tree out of the input string for indexing it, and get O(n log³ n) performance
13:30:37 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: rebooting).
13:34:22 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:40:50 <int-e> Karp, Miller, Rosenberg ""
13:40:51 <int-e> Rapid identification of repeated patterns in strings, trees and arrays
13:41:03 <int-e> 1972, looks relevant
13:41:29 <int-e> Though old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffix_array#Construction_Algorithms has a couple more references.
13:42:47 <int-e> (The Karp, Miller, Rosenberg one is based on the idea of first identifying equal letters, and then doubling the match lengths iteratively, in O(n) steps per doubling. So it'll actually be O(n log n) total for what you need, I think.)
13:44:30 <ais523> int-e: my algorithm is basically that, with some extra tricks to also figure out the lengths
13:47:02 <ais523> oh, hmm, the algo there is a) not the same as mine, b) solves a subset of the problem
13:47:22 <ais523> theirs looks for matches at length n, mine finds all lengths n for which there are matches (together with the matches themselves)
13:48:21 <int-e> Actually...
13:48:58 <int-e> if you have "aaaaaa", how what does the output of the algorithm look like? Do you only look for longest matches?
13:50:21 <int-e> (with a^n as input, listing all occurrences of a^k for k<n is clearly not doable in sub-quadratic time)
13:50:36 <ais523> it finds a single match at each of the lengths 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, because it doesn't directly find matches that are prefixes of other matches (but those are trivial to add to the output if you need them, but that obviously gives you O(n²) performance worst-case)
13:51:23 <ais523> also the output's hierarchical in a sense
13:52:23 <ais523> ah no, right, that paper is basically the same algo as mine
13:52:34 <ais523> just with less information retained between iterations
13:52:47 <ais523> I thought it would be unlikely to be new
13:53:59 <ais523> anyway, 1972 is over 25 years ago
13:54:04 <int-e> Mainly I was trying to suggest suffix arrays and trees as starting points for finding related work.
13:54:06 <ais523> meaning no patent concerns even if you're American
13:54:28 <int-e> Then I looked at the Karp paper and wondered how close it was to what you actually did.
13:54:36 <ais523> a suffix array is the form which my output takes
13:55:04 <ais523> except that it also knows the longest common prefix of any two consecutive lines
13:55:41 <int-e> (I should write Karp et al.)
13:56:16 <ais523> aha: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCP_array
13:56:20 <ais523> this is what I was looking for
13:57:15 <ais523> apparently it was done in O(n) (!) in 2003
13:57:39 <ais523> actually 2001
13:58:26 <ais523> also there's an O(n²) algo that's faster in practice, asymptotic performance can be weird sometimes
13:59:32 <int-e> linear time suffix tree construction has been known since 1973.
14:00:45 <Taneb> ꙮ_ꙮ is my favourite emoticon
14:01:05 <int-e> (That's not an LCP yet, of course.)
14:01:35 <int-e> 14 eyed horror
14:01:42 <Taneb> Mostly because my housemate's terminal can't render it
14:01:47 <int-e> (20 in some fonts)
14:02:18 <int-e> my terminal doesn't render it either
14:02:42 <ais523> int-e: yes, linear time LCP is what I was surprised at
14:02:43 <int-e> but cut&paste work
14:02:59 <ais523> it's even been done with only enough memory to hold the inputs plus the outputs
14:03:40 -!- GeekDude has joined.
14:04:22 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:04:45 <ais523> wow, Springer are trying to sell the paper about the fastest known LCP algorithm for £20
14:05:23 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
14:06:22 <int-e> Fun. Do you need a copy?
14:06:59 <ais523> it's not in this University's subscriptions, directly
14:07:06 <ais523> I'm going to check for preprints and the like
14:07:09 <ais523> or other versions
14:07:44 <ais523> yay for preprints: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1101.3448.pdf
14:17:39 -!- boily has joined.
14:42:28 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
14:53:56 <ais523> "All programs were compiled using the same compiler options (-ffast-math -O9 -funroll- loops -DNDEBUG)."
14:54:04 <ais523> wow, those are some compiler options
14:55:25 <ais523> I don't think -O normally goes up to 9
15:03:55 <boily> I thought you had -Os, -O0, -O1 and -O2?
15:04:08 <Phantom_Hoover> -O3 too, isn't there?
15:05:27 <boily> perhaps. for me -O2 is already dangerous, and can cause many miscast effects...
15:06:25 <boily> (that is to say: nothing above 0 when programming µC. also, I may be playing DCSS at the moment >_>'...)
15:07:24 <ais523> yay, I am currently first on an anagolf problem: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?utf8+to+unicode
15:07:40 <ais523> -O3, also -Ofast exists for some reason
15:08:15 <ais523> ah, apparently -Ofast is -O3, plus optimizations that violate the relevant standards
15:08:43 <ais523> (in the case of C, it's equivalent to "-O3 -ffast-math" in the gcc I have installed)
15:21:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:22:28 -!- kapil__ has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
15:32:13 -!- boily has quit (Quit: EQUIVALENT CHICKEN).
15:59:55 -!- Tritonio has joined.
16:02:23 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
16:38:08 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:41:02 -!- ^v has joined.
16:51:34 -!- not^v has joined.
16:53:18 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:01:18 -!- skj3gg has joined.
17:11:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NeilK * New user account
17:13:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41905&oldid=41887 * NeilK * (+17) HeartForth added
17:14:23 <int-e> clever bot. or perhaps, a human ;)
17:24:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * NeilK * uploaded "[[File:HeartForth Factorial.png]]": A screenshot of HeartForth, an Emoji stack language.
17:28:58 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined.
17:31:07 -!- ais523 has quit.
17:31:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:31:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HeartForth]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41907 * NeilK * (+782) Initial page for HeartForth
17:32:50 <vanila> :grinning::boom:0:revolving_hearts::point_right::two_hearts:1:heavy_minus_sign::two_hearts:1:pray::+1::point_right::couple_with_heart:0:pray::+1::revolving_hearts::broken_heart::wink:
17:34:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HeartForth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41908&oldid=41907 * NeilK * (-2) /* Examples */
17:35:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HeartForth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41909&oldid=41908 * NeilK * (+0) /* Examples */
17:36:01 <int-e> "Clean visual separation between program and data."
17:37:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:NeilK]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41910 * NeilK * (+45) contact info
17:38:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HeartForth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41911&oldid=41909 * NeilK * (+2) /* Disadvantages */ bulleted to match
17:41:07 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
17:51:16 * int-e idly wonders whether the use of those emoji constitutes fair use
17:52:15 -!- skj3gg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:55:42 -!- skj3gg has joined.
18:01:49 <elliott> unicode is public domain, right
18:01:58 <elliott> "or whatever"
18:02:06 <elliott> oh I see
18:02:09 <elliott> the graphics themselves
18:02:14 <elliott> why don't we just inline the actual emoji
18:02:25 <elliott> we can't do fair use anyway
18:02:27 <elliott> since the wiki is meant to be pd
18:02:45 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…).
18:03:26 <fizzie> pgcc had up to -O6, I think.
18:04:01 <fizzie> Or egcs or whatever. Some GCC fork anyway.
18:12:40 <int-e> elliott: AFAIUI, fair use allows incorporation of copyrighted work into other works, which can then be relicensed as a whole.
18:13:33 <int-e> (IANAL, etc.; also I'm not actually operating the wiki, so it's not my call to make anyway.)
18:16:48 <fizzie> This mobile network is strange. SSH works nice and fast, and web browsing was okay for an hour there, but then suddenly stopped. With the exception of Google searches.
18:16:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:17:40 <fizzie> Perhaps I should set up some sort of a VPN thing, in case it's some traffic shaping stuff.
18:17:42 <int-e> fizzie: so use ssh -D to set up a socks proxy and use that?
18:18:19 <fizzie> int-e: I'm on Android. I don't know how to do that here.
18:18:40 <int-e> ah. neither do I
18:18:57 <fizzie> But I know this has some VPN settings in the network stuff.
18:21:42 -!- not^v has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:21:57 <fizzie> Apparently port forwarding in general is also a "pro" (aka paid) feature in this SSH client (JuiceSSH).
18:22:01 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:26:10 <int-e> "pro"
18:26:24 * int-e feels like an expert ;-)
18:27:17 -!- FreeFull has joined.
18:38:08 <dulla> Join the 10$ Crew, int-e
19:03:42 -!- Tritonio has joined.
19:08:31 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
19:11:32 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:18:00 -!- ais523 has quit.
19:23:33 <int-e> wtf
19:24:34 <oerjan> nih
19:27:20 <int-e> oerjan: Are you a knight or is that a lower-case "not invented here"?
19:29:25 <oerjan> por que no los dos
19:29:31 <oerjan> *-
19:30:33 <oerjan> no wait
19:30:36 <oerjan> *-*-
19:37:38 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
19:37:40 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
19:38:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:42:48 <int-e> oerjan: ?¿;՞؟፧᥅⁇⁈⁉⍰❓❔⳺⳻⸮꘏꛷︖﹖
19:44:59 <oerjan> are those all question marks
19:45:15 <int-e> yes. no, I don't think so.
19:45:24 <int-e> (they all are; but I doubt that the list is complete)
19:45:44 <oerjan> oh and bidirectional text that causes irssi/putty to show the time in reverse
19:45:50 <int-e> (and the ?! and !? ones are cheating.)
19:46:03 <int-e> does it? nice!
19:46:13 <int-e> (it doesn't do that for me)
19:46:33 <oerjan> i saw 24:02 int-e> ...
19:46:50 <int-e> odd.
19:47:10 <oerjan> it's happened before as i recall
19:47:21 <oerjan> oh tmux is also included
19:47:58 <int-e> Hmm, the stack here is xterm/ssh/screen/irssi... so that's a bit different.
19:48:58 <oren> here i don't have reversed anything. gnome terminal/irssi
19:49:15 <int-e> oerjan must be special.
19:49:40 <oerjan> obviously.
19:50:02 <int-e> Ørjan
19:50:24 <oerjan> `unidecode Ø
19:50:34 <oerjan> ONE CAN NEVER BE SURE
19:51:19 <oren> `unidecode 〇◯○●◎
19:51:23 <oerjan> suddenly i'm getting an "Ørjan, is that really my name" experience
19:51:46 <int-e> oerjan: I don't find mixing up that letter with symbols for the empty set funny anymore.
19:52:01 <oerjan> that's called mathematical maturity hth
19:52:12 <oren> That's how I write my zeros
19:52:25 <oerjan> by hand?
19:52:30 <oren> yeah, on paper
19:52:46 <oerjan> you norteamericanos are weird
19:53:32 <oerjan> (we fight back with 1 and 7)
19:54:00 <oren> I write 1 like | and 7 like an unclosed 9
19:54:30 <oerjan> we cross out our 7's
19:54:39 <oerjan> so they don't look too similar to the 1's
19:55:17 * oerjan has been reading the language construction kit
19:55:30 <int-e> `unidecode ౸
19:55:31 <oerjan> (still is, i guess.)
19:55:40 <int-e> sounds quite specific :)
19:56:17 <oerjan> you'd think
19:57:32 <oren> I like base 60
19:59:05 <int-e> `unidecode ꘠↉
19:59:24 <int-e> there are 60+ zero digits in unicode...
19:59:46 <oerjan> > ꘠
19:59:47 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: lexical error at character '\42528'
20:00:06 <oerjan> disappoint, i thought haskell did unicode
20:00:51 <oren> maybe it only supports some characters. I know perl allows $か as a variable name
20:01:00 <int-e> > generalCategory '꘠'
20:01:02 <lambdabot> DecimalNumber
20:01:13 <int-e> > generalCategory '↉'
20:01:14 <lambdabot> OtherNumber
20:01:26 <oerjan> > let x꘠=0 in x꘠
20:01:27 <lambdabot> 0
20:01:33 <oren> `perl $か = 3; print $か
20:01:36 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "$か = 3; print $か": No such file or directory
20:01:40 <oerjan> variable names are fine
20:01:54 <oerjan> but that should, of course, be a number
20:01:55 <int-e> `runperl
20:01:56 <oren> `perl -e '$か = "foo"; print $か;'
20:01:56 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: runperl: not found
20:01:56 <HackEgo> No output.
20:01:57 -!- Patashu has joined.
20:02:06 <oerjan> oren: `perl -e
20:02:20 <int-e> ``perl -e '$か = "foo"; print $か;'
20:02:20 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `perl: not found
20:02:27 <int-e> hah
20:02:28 <oerjan> by coincidence, you don't need `` for it
20:02:29 <int-e> `` perl -e '$か = "foo"; print $か;'
20:02:30 <HackEgo> Unrecognized character \x81; marked by <-- HERE after $<-- HERE near column 3 at -e line 1.
20:02:46 <oerjan> int-e: use `perl -e without ``
20:03:06 <int-e> oerjan: why does that work?
20:03:22 <oerjan> i leave that as an exercise hth
20:04:05 <int-e> oh.
20:04:15 <int-e> `perl -e$か = "foo"; print $か;
20:04:17 <HackEgo> Unrecognized character \x81; marked by <-- HERE after $<-- HERE near column 3 at -e line 1.
20:04:23 <int-e> fair enough
20:04:46 <oren> `` perl -e 'use utf8; $か = "foo"; print $か;'
20:04:50 <HackEgo> foo
20:05:10 <int-e> `perl -e use utf8; $か = "foo"; print $か;
20:05:10 <HackEgo> foo
20:05:26 <int-e> that's what oerjan meant.
20:05:45 <oerjan> `run ls bin/perl*
20:05:57 <HackEgo> bin/perl-e
20:06:08 <oerjan> that also exists if you're too confused :)
20:06:15 <int-e> `perl-e print 123
20:06:16 <HackEgo> 123
20:06:16 <oren> `` perl -e 'use utf8; $夢 = "foo"; print $夢;'
20:06:17 <HackEgo> foo
20:06:27 <int-e> fiendish, as oerjan would say.
20:08:01 <oerjan> `interp perl use utf8; $か = "foo"; print $か;
20:08:05 <HackEgo> foo
20:08:18 <oerjan> the modular version
20:08:45 <oerjan> `! perl use utf8; $か = "foo"; print $か;
20:08:46 <HackEgo> foo
20:09:11 <int-e> `pl
20:09:14 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pl: not found
20:09:32 <oren> `` perl -e 'use utf8; $∀ = "foo"; print $∀;'
20:09:34 <HackEgo> Malformed UTF-8 character (unexpected end of string) at -e line 1. \ Unrecognized character \x88; marked by <-- HERE after e utf8; $<-- HERE near column 12 at -e line 1.
20:10:00 <oren> nandatoooo!?
20:10:26 <oerjan> the telugu number pages i checked don't seem to mention that character.
20:13:45 -!- ^v has joined.
20:14:12 -!- AndoDaan has joined.
20:20:43 -!- skj3gg has joined.
20:21:44 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:24:21 -!- MDude has joined.
20:24:22 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:30:45 -!- SignX has joined.
20:40:17 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:40:48 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:47:54 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…).
20:51:12 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:53:10 -!- TieSoul has changed nick to TieSleep.
21:06:56 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated).
21:07:54 -!- idris-bot has joined.
21:08:56 -!- vanila has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:18:40 -!- skj3gg has joined.
21:32:51 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
21:34:51 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…).
21:35:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:42:28 -!- contrapumpkin has joined.
21:42:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:55:13 <zzo38> Strange Item {2} Artifact :: Cumulative upkeep--{1} or discard a card :: {T}: Put a token copy of ~ into play tapped and phased out.
21:56:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: phased out and cumulative upkeep? are you trying to do an Old Fogey?
21:56:26 <zzo38> No, I just like those abilities
21:56:38 <b_jonas> phasing scares me a bit
21:56:43 <b_jonas> phase out too
21:56:58 <zzo38> I suppose a token phased out won't work anyways
21:57:14 <b_jonas> why not?
21:57:27 <zzo38> The rules say it doesn't for some reason
21:57:39 <b_jonas> huh... ok
21:57:49 <zzo38> {T}: Put a token copy of ~ into play tapped. If ~ is a card, it phases out.
21:59:31 -!- qlkzy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:59:45 <zzo38> Steal Summoning {3UU} Instant :: Manifest target spell. Do you like that one?
22:00:29 -!- SignX has quit (Quit: Page closed).
22:00:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm... how does that work? does the manifested object come into play under your control? and what happens if you target a copy of a spell?
22:01:28 <zzo38> I think it does come into play under your control. If it is a copy of a spell then it doesn't.
22:02:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, but what happens if it's a copy of a spell? nothing? or does the spell disappear? or moved to another zone and then disappear?
22:03:43 -!- adu has joined.
22:04:02 <zzo38> Actually I fixed my alternative rules now and now the copy can come into play as a token (previously I wrote it not to work with objects that come into play face-down, but I changed that)
22:04:40 -!- qlkzy has joined.
22:04:43 <b_jonas> hmm
22:05:34 <zzo38> This rule doesn't affect any official cards as far as I am aware.
22:06:02 <b_jonas> I'm still not sure I know how manifest works
22:06:03 <zzo38> (Also this alternative rule doesn't affect non-card objects that come into play from a zone other than the stack)
22:06:19 <b_jonas> and this might confuse it further
22:07:18 <zzo38> I believe manifesting an object means you put the object into play face-down under your control, and then it becomes allowed to be turned face-up for its mana cost if the front face is a creature.
22:07:45 <zzo38> If a instant or sorcery tries to turn face up for any reason, it is revealed but then remains face down.
22:07:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and there's some extra rules, like on what happens when you try to bounce a manifested non-permanent (it remains exiled)
22:08:14 <zzo38> That's implied by other rules and has nothing to do with manifest.
22:08:32 <zzo38> Any instant or sorcery that tries to come into play for any reason whatsoever instead remains where it is.
22:08:55 <b_jonas> so what if I try to target a face down spell with Steal Summoning? does it get revealed as it is put onto the battlefield, or only when it leaves the battlefield?
22:09:28 <zzo38> Only when it leaves the battlefield, although you can look at it right away.
22:09:43 <b_jonas> ok
22:10:14 <zzo38> (Well, not until Steal Summoning resolves; you can't look at it before then if it isn't your spell.)
22:11:19 <b_jonas> “Steal Summoning” sounds like the name of that nonexistant instant that gets you to control a spell, which is why I find this a bit disappointing
22:11:44 <zzo38> I think if a face-down permanent turns face-up and the front face is a Aura, that it would be discarded right away, but that if it is exiled and comes back, then a target for the Aura can be chosen.
22:12:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that sounds about right
22:13:02 <b_jonas> I think the face down spell should probably be revealed when Steal Summoning resolves though
22:13:22 <zzo38> Why? I don't see any reason why it should have to?
22:13:42 <b_jonas> Because it leaves the stack in a way other than the normal way.
22:13:45 <zzo38> Does the rule about revealing them apply to spells too?
22:13:53 <zzo38> If it does, then yes it does get revealed.
22:14:01 <b_jonas> I hope so
22:14:18 <b_jonas> it has to, to make sure you can't cheat by casting a non-morph spell face down
22:14:32 <b_jonas> this is so that M:tG in principle doesn't require an independent judge to play
22:14:40 <b_jonas> as long as you know the rules perfectly
22:15:50 <b_jonas> I'll check the rules, but that is definitely a goal the rules are trying to keep
22:17:24 <zzo38> Probably it is then
22:17:44 <b_jonas> “707.9. If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as he or she moves it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all players as he or she moves it.
22:17:52 <b_jonas> If a player leaves the game, etc”
22:18:05 <b_jonas> So that means it wouldn't be revealed, because it's moved to the battlefield.
22:18:40 <b_jonas> This means if you Scroll of Cryptic Runes a face down spell, it's also not revealed.
22:18:42 <zzo38> O, OK then it isn't revealed, and in fact doesn't need to anyways
22:19:00 <zzo38> Yes OK
22:19:23 <b_jonas> though as this situation doesn't exist in official M:tG, you could change that rule for this
22:19:58 <zzo38> I don't want to change rules that I don't believe should be changed
22:20:32 <b_jonas> sure, it's fine
22:21:10 <b_jonas> I wonder if putting a copy of a spell into play as a face down token could lead to any strange situations, but it's probably fine
22:21:48 <b_jonas> it's face down, can't be turned face up in any way because its face is a sorcery or instant, and it disappears after it leaves the battlefield
22:22:57 <zzo38> One other rule I made up is that an effect is allowed to prohibit conceding in a subgame, but the outer game can always be conceded regardless of any effects, including during the subgame
22:23:38 <b_jonas> hmmm...
22:24:22 <b_jonas> that might work rules-wise, but I think it might be a bad idea
22:24:44 <b_jonas> because it could make subgames take too much real time
22:25:09 <zzo38> For example the effect that creates the subgame might say that conceding is not allowed. In such case the outer game can still be conceded, and subsubgames still can be conceded if those aren't prohibited too. If a continuous effect says "Conceding is not allowed" then it has no effect if this effect isn't played inside of the subgame.
22:25:33 <b_jonas> would you also make the rules about infinite loops not apply to the subgame directly as well?
22:26:01 <zzo38> So far I didn't and am not sure about that one yet
22:27:27 <zzo38> An effect that only says you can't lose doesn't prohibit you from conceding though.
22:27:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: what if it says you can't lose and your opponents can't win?
22:28:42 <zzo38> Still doesn't prohibit conceding.
22:28:50 <b_jonas> and aren't subgames basically deprecated anyway, with all cards creating subgames currently banned in all formats, even Vintage?
22:29:22 <b_jonas> sort of like Ante, only newer
22:29:51 <int-e> . o O ( "unban target card" )
22:30:49 <zzo38> Maybe although I made up one new card that creates a subgame. Also I wrote a few new rules for ante and sideboard; one effect is that all effects that cross games begin no earlier than the beginning of a match and end no later than the end of a match. Therefore anted cards are always returned at the end of a match.
22:31:10 <b_jonas> int-e: like a backwards Look at Me, I'm the DCI?
22:32:12 <int-e> Oh, nice flavour text on that one.
22:33:24 <zzo38> As far as I know "unban target card" should only work if the card was already unbanned at the beginning of the current game; even if it said "name a card" it still is
22:33:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: or at least at the beginning of the match
22:33:57 <dulla> subgames?
22:34:47 <zzo38> I would think that banned cards cease existing even in a sideboard though?
22:35:12 <zzo38> And you wouldn't be allowed to name a banned card.
22:35:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, they definitely cease existing in the sideboard. the remainder text of Look at Me is clear in that
22:36:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think it probably moves the banned cards to the same zone as AWOL
22:36:25 <b_jonas> even from the sideboard
22:37:15 <b_jonas> (or like Blacker Lotus)
22:37:32 <b_jonas> (I mean Chaos Confetti)
22:39:18 <zzo38> I would also make the assumption that cards with no valid RULECARD representation are automatically banned regardless of anything
22:39:40 <b_jonas> what's "RULECARD"?
22:40:09 <zzo38> Some programming language I partially made up but not much yet
22:40:54 <b_jonas> um, then maybe the card doesn't have a representation because you just haven't implemented it yet?
22:41:18 <zzo38> It is hypothetical for now of course.
22:42:20 <b_jonas> anyway, the relevant rule is “100.2. To play, each player needs his or her own deck of traditional Magic cards,” and “108.2. When a rule or text on a card refers to a “card,” it means only a Magic card.”
22:42:54 <b_jonas> and the tourn't rules I guess
22:43:21 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
22:54:41 -!- skj3gg has joined.
23:04:59 -!- skj3gg has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…).
23:07:54 <zzo38> I got the Famicom working now.
23:08:35 <zzo38> After cleaning up the cartridge
23:19:11 <zzo38> Tell people who made PDJSON that I fixed the bug and interfaced it with SQLite.
23:19:56 -!- hjulle has joined.
23:21:06 -!- adu has joined.
23:23:20 <zzo38> (I don't know how to tell them by myself)
23:23:20 -!- oren has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
23:23:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:24:59 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit).
23:37:09 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:45:19 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:50:05 -!- AndoDaan has joined.
23:58:05 -!- skj3gg has joined.
←2015-02-14 2015-02-15 2015-02-16→ ↑2015 ↑all