←2015-03-14 2015-03-15 2015-03-16→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:07:32 <oerjan> boillo
00:17:13 <boily> bonsoerjan.
00:18:17 * oerjan was vaguely hoping for oerjour but guesses it's too late
00:19:26 <boily> tomorrow morning! don't lose faith!
00:20:13 <oren> 今ボイリは
00:21:29 <boily> すみませんが、ちょっと違います。「ボアリ」です。
00:22:20 <ais523> oren: actually I was reminded of TCP quite a bit
00:22:29 <ais523> sequence numbers and checksums and all that
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00:58:42 <oerjan> i may eventually have to learn japanese just to keep up with the channel.
01:05:31 <oerjan> also, i'm with oren on the ip over tmuxxers.
01:06:59 <ais523> I'm calling this program tmuxip, although it isn't duplex
01:09:22 <boily> oerjan: this chännel's lingua franca should be some Norwegian-Japanese pidgin crossover.
01:10:24 <oren> NoxJp is this channels OTP
01:11:54 <oerjan> there used to be a norwegian-russian pidgin but i don't think there's a norwegian-japanese one.
01:15:51 <oren> Ooh, norwegian has retroflex consonants, cool!
01:16:18 <boily> these have to be sacrificed for the greater good.
01:16:41 <oerjan> jeg wakarimasu for lite japansk til å lage en god eksempelsetning desu ka.
01:17:09 <oren> both norwegian and japanese have pitch accents, interesting
01:17:27 <oerjan> i read that in the language construction kit recently
01:17:51 <boily> Noxjp is definitely this chännel's OTP. incomprehensible, sounds like some Necronomicon juice extract, and has a few å sprinkled in.
01:18:25 * boily is glad to see zompist.com is still alive and as ugly as ever ^^
01:18:53 <oerjan> boily: many norwegian dialects (including mine) also have a weird kind of retroflex l, i'd say that cannot be sacrificed hth
01:19:36 <oerjan> especially if we use that for both r and l
01:20:40 <boily> tdnrh, but for the sake of good international relations I'll let it go.
01:20:57 <oerjan> verly good
01:21:17 <oren> holy crap norwegian also has adjectives that change like verbs
01:21:29 <oerjan> oren: um where did you read that
01:22:14 <oerjan> i don't think that is true in any meaningful sense
01:23:12 <oren> oh, I see, your verbs don't change by gender but your nounds do?
01:23:18 <oerjan> well duh
01:23:19 <oren> adjectives I mean?
01:23:37 <oerjan> yes, gender is for nouns and adjectives
01:23:43 <oerjan> as is definiteness.
01:24:09 <oerjan> hungarian btw, inflects verbs for the definiteness of the object.
01:24:48 <oren> the verbs don't even change for plurality? even english does that
01:25:04 <oerjan> no, we lost person and number on verbs long ago
01:25:31 <oerjan> a century or more
01:25:47 <oren> but somehow you kept gender agreement on adjectives...
01:26:03 <oerjan> _and_ developed definiteness agreement hth
01:26:10 <oerjan> oh and number too
01:27:22 <oerjan> although it's sort of wishy-washy in that for most adjectives, all forms are the same except for the singular indefinite ones
01:28:37 <oerjan> although "liten" (little, small) has kept an unusual variety of forms, which includes cognates of both en:little and en:small
01:29:31 <fizzie> We don't inflect words too much either. *whistles unconvincingly*
01:29:48 <oerjan> OKAYSSÄ
01:30:21 <fizzie> The vowel disharmony made my left eye hurt.
01:31:30 <oerjan> * boily is glad to see zompist.com is still alive and as ugly as ever ^^ <-- good content doesn't need modern web design. in fact no one does.
01:31:45 <boily> oerjan: which case is it again?
01:32:09 <boily> fizzie: ÖKÄYSSÄ?
01:32:34 <fizzie> boily: I guess that's all right.
01:32:36 <oerjan> fizzie: i was divided on whether to use -A or -Ä at the end
01:32:42 <oerjan> boily: inessive iirc
01:33:01 <fizzie> Yes.
01:33:05 <boily> into the okay? I guess I could go with that.
01:33:14 <oerjan> no, in
01:33:19 <boily> aaaaaaaaaaaurgh.
01:33:20 <oerjan> into would be illative
01:33:26 <oerjan> also iirc
01:33:54 <boily> all those cases always confuse me. people should stick with verb conjugations; that's much simpler and easier.
01:34:03 <oerjan> mind you i use inessive because it's the one finnish case ending i can easily remember
01:34:47 <fizzie> The Finnish locatives are (I think) generally taught as two groups of three: inessive, elative, illative (the internals) and adessive, ablative, allative (the externals).
01:34:56 <oerjan> norwegian doesn't have much in the way of verb conjugation. certainly even less than english.
01:35:15 <oren> blarh I hated french because they have all these conjugations but never bother to actually SAY them, so why do they still WRITE them!?!?!?
01:35:30 <oerjan> fizzie: hungarian has those + an extra group for surfaces hth
01:35:58 <boily> oren: we do say them hth
01:38:10 <oerjan> that is, in hungarian you have to decide vaguely whether you're dealing with a point, a surface, or a volume before you choose locative cases. iirc.
01:38:36 <oren> je parl tu parl ii parl nu parlaw vu parlay ii parl
01:38:49 <oren> only two are in any way differnet
01:38:51 <oerjan> oren: *il
01:39:03 <oren> the l isn't actually pronounced
01:39:14 <oerjan> wait, it isn't?
01:39:20 <boily> oren: eh???
01:39:41 <boily> also, your “ii” is suspiciously québécois...
01:39:53 <oren> I'm from canada...
01:39:55 <oerjan> also the -aw should be nasal
01:40:05 <oren> parlaw~
01:40:32 * boily glares at oren
01:40:52 <boily> parlons! with a «on» sound! tsé, messemble, c'pas compliqué! quand même, là là...
01:41:34 <oren> In france do they actually say the n?
01:42:07 <oerjan> saying the n isn't the same as using a nasal vowel
01:42:11 <boily> their «on» is actually the same. there are differences with «an», and they have mostly merged «in» and «un» together.
01:42:25 <oerjan> un bon vin blanc
01:42:50 <oren> u~ bo ve~ bla~
01:43:28 <oerjan> en god hvitvin hth
01:44:29 <boily> /œ̃bɔ̃vɛ̃blæ̃/ vs. /ɛ̃bɔ̃vɛ̃blɑ̃/.
01:44:49 <fizzie> oerjan: Apparently we have a third group of locatives for "state" (translative, essive and exessive, for entering, residing and exiting a particular state), but the exessive only exists in some dialects, and anyway I don't think our Finnish grammar classes really grouped them.
01:45:16 <fizzie> oerjan: Also I think we have some remnants of the Hungarian stuff, applicable to some particular words. Or something like that.
01:45:21 <oerjan> ic
01:45:32 <oren> naruhodo
01:46:06 <boily> je vois ça.
01:46:30 <oerjan> well i recall reading that the common ancestral language had a lot fewer cases than both hungarian and finnish, so it's not clear what is a "remnant" there...
01:47:15 <oerjan> (something like 6/7, which is about as many as protoindoeuropean i think)
01:47:52 <oerjan> which reminds me that i was going to look up the consensus number of cases in PIE
01:48:20 <oren> We should have a holidy called PIE day for confusion purposes
01:48:31 <oerjan> oren: fancy
01:49:24 <oerjan> boily: wait you canadiens say /blæ̃/ ?
01:50:38 <fizzie> Yes, we should have that on the 53rd day of August, because π*e = 8.539734...
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01:51:05 <boily> oerjan: yes?
01:51:07 <fizzie> (And the de-facto π day already follows the ridiculous American month/day/year conventions.)
01:51:29 <boily> > exp pi
01:51:30 <lambdabot> Ambiguous occurrence ‘pi’
01:51:30 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘L.pi’, defined at L.hs:161:1
01:51:30 <lambdabot> or ‘GHC.Float.pi’,
01:51:46 * boily mapoles lambdabot
01:51:46 <boily> > exp GHC.Float.pi
01:51:46 <oren> oerjan: my dad does. I learned in school to say blaw but my dad corrected me with bleh
01:51:46 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘GHC.Float.pi’
01:51:49 <fizzie> That would be the EPI day, I think.
01:51:52 <oerjan> boily: fancy
01:51:55 * boily mapoles lambdabot again
01:51:58 <oerjan> @undef
01:51:58 <lambdabot> Undefined.
01:52:00 <oren> s/eh/ah
01:52:03 <oerjan> > exp pi
01:52:04 <lambdabot> 23.140692632779267
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01:52:13 <boily> > pi ^ (exp 1)
01:52:14 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Real.Integral b0)
01:52:14 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘GHC.Real.^’
01:52:14 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Float.Floating a)
01:52:19 <boily> > pi ** (exp 1)
01:52:20 <lambdabot> 22.45915771836104
01:52:37 <boily> hmm... which was it again, the one that hit about 19.999...
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01:52:48 <Koen_> > exp (exp 1 * (ln pi))
01:52:49 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘ln’
01:52:49 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
01:52:49 <lambdabot> ‘n’ (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
01:53:06 <fizzie> > exp pi - pi
01:53:07 <lambdabot> 19.999099979189474
01:53:17 <boily> `thanks fizzie
01:53:18 <HackEgo> Thanks, fizzie. Thizzie.
01:53:29 <fizzie> boily: I just googled the corresponding xkcd, to be honest.
01:53:56 <fizzie> (Second hit for "xkcd floating point library".)
01:55:57 <oerjan> rand()*(exp pi - pi), aka 80
01:59:41 <oerjan> also as for days, beware the ides of march
02:00:44 <oren> I generally just use a text editor, not an ide, so i'm safe
02:00:51 <AndoDaan> Beware your own desire to become kind, I'd say.
02:01:02 <AndoDaan> become King*
02:01:17 <AndoDaan> become King*
02:01:25 <AndoDaan> Damn keyboard.
02:02:55 <oren> my mouse has begun malfunctioning, which is annoying when it's my method to see if my display has frozen again
02:03:06 <boily> mechanical keyboards forevaaaaaaaah!!!!!1!!one!!!11!!
02:07:26 <AndoDaan> I bought a new mousepad a couple of days ago. It had "works with optical lasers Mice" on it's packedging, all proud and shit.
02:08:29 <oren> lol
02:08:29 <AndoDaan> What are actually the benefits of a mechanical keyboard?
02:09:25 <boily> nice solid keys with a long tracking, a keyboard that feels solid beneath your fingers, and snobby hipsterness :P
02:10:16 <boily> (also, annoying your coworkers with loud clicks and clacks :D)
02:10:50 <AndoDaan> Good selling points.
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02:30:32 <oren> They also can stand up to my rough fingers without breaking
02:31:02 <oren> Usually the keyboard breaks first on my laptops, this is unusual
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03:11:46 <ais523> so this is what I came up with: http://sprunge.us/IebA
03:11:50 <ais523> rather inefficient but it seems to work
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03:14:21 <callforjudgement> so this is what I came up with: http://sprunge.us/IebA
03:14:23 <callforjudgement> rather inefficient but it seems to work
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03:54:18 <zzo38> You posted twice as it turns out
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04:02:25 <quintopia> what is that for ais523
04:02:45 <ais523> zzo38: I wasn't sure if it went through the first time
04:02:59 <ais523> quintopia: communicating binaries through a terminal multiplexer
04:03:42 <quintopia> to what end?
04:04:48 <ais523> communicating files to non-networked systems
04:05:01 <ais523> when the only connection you have goes through both screen /and/ tmux
04:06:27 <Sgeo> Is tmux good? I love screen but I only use it for its 'don't die if I lose connection' properties
04:07:20 <ais523> Sgeo: it's very similar to screen in most respects
04:07:24 <ais523> probably the interface is a bit nicer
04:07:41 <ais523> however, going through both screen and tmux is by far easier than trying to go through screen or tmux twice
04:08:01 <pikhq> Though it's not a fair comparison (the only time I used it was a pretty old version), tmux's terminal emulation when I used it was craaap.
04:08:17 <quintopia> i cant imagine such a connection
04:08:22 <quintopia> sounds absurd
04:09:53 <ais523> quintopia: yes, but I came across one
04:10:02 <ais523> and asked #esoteric because it was an interesting problem
04:10:14 <ais523> it's possibly an avoidable problem – we could probably change the setup
04:10:31 <ais523> but seeing if it was possible without changing the setup captured my interest
04:11:07 <Sgeo> Why is it going through both screen and tmux?
04:11:41 <ais523> it's using tmux as screen, and screen as a serial connection parser
04:12:07 <quintopia> what an idea
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04:16:11 <Sgeo> I feel like I understand screen even less than I did before
04:18:04 <oren> I should learn to use screen.
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04:32:24 <zzo38> Why does my speakers sometimes make extra noise that it isn't supposed to (but usually it doesn't)?
04:34:53 <pikhq> Could be one of a few different things.
04:35:23 <pikhq> Are you in the presence of a strong magnetic field?
04:35:41 <zzo38> I don't think so, but I don't know
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04:53:36 <g2watson> screen is working ok!
04:53:49 <g2watson> whoops name wrong
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04:56:50 <oren> Hmm. I'm not familiar with any other programs which use control A as a command, thats convenient
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04:59:04 * Sgeo is in the presence of a few magnetic fields, h2
04:59:05 <Sgeo> h2h
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05:07:59 <Sgeo> A bit late to post this, but http://www.cadaeic.net/cadenza.htm
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05:30:32 <g2watson> /quit
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06:05:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Condit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42127&oldid=23186 * * (-20) /* External resources */ remove "no longer working" since the link is valid
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06:16:34 <g2watson> that's rare, for a link to start working again
06:22:45 <g2watson> normally when a link goes dead either the server is gone or the website has been reorganized
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06:27:35 <zzo38> Well, my link is also broken, but not due to any reorganization or server is gone, but because the DNS is pointing to the wrong address.
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06:31:25 <b_jonas> hello, all
06:32:04 <oerjan> b_jó napot
06:33:17 <zzo38> oerjan: What does that mean?
06:33:37 <zzo38> Can you figure out all of my three Magic: the Puzzling so far?
06:33:47 <oerjan> zzo38: b_good day
06:34:57 <b_jonas> no, I think I only solved the first one
06:34:59 <b_jonas> are there even three?
06:35:07 <zzo38> Yes, I made three
06:35:26 <b_jonas> the first one is the one with that sea monster, one is the subgame Sharcantspell one
06:35:43 <zzo38> and puzzle.2 and puzzle.3
06:36:11 <b_jonas> wasn't it at http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/
06:36:25 <zzo38> O, yes, that's correct; I gave the wrong address
06:36:29 <zzo38> Thank you
06:36:50 <zzo38> Although the DNS is broke so type and so on
06:38:20 <zzo38> See if you can figure even a little bit about the second and third one
06:39:06 <b_jonas> I think I figured a little bit, namely that the Wishes are probably used from the subgame.
06:39:42 <zzo38> Yes, but now you have figure it out more
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06:59:41 <Sgeo> Are there any processes on Windows that renames files to m and then a number?
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07:26:45 <zzo38> Someone else did figure out all of my puzzles
07:26:49 <zzo38> But now see if you know too
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08:53:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck bitwidth conversions]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42128&oldid=40652 * Rdebath * (-3) Sigh
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10:03:15 <int-e> fungot: hmm
10:03:16 <fungot> int-e: creates a vector of that length would be kept alive for running the whole scheme image, not when they are
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10:32:24 <boily> @tell oerjan Good moerjaning!
10:32:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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10:52:13 <elliott__> good moaning
10:53:59 <boily> bon melliottin!
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10:54:55 <elliott__> melliottin sounds like some kind of substance
10:56:08 <int-e> "The word 'mellow' wandered around in his mind in search of something to connect with."
10:56:39 <boily> bint-e matin?
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13:13:34 <b_jonas> what
13:14:01 <b_jonas> Terry Pratchett? but he was so young
13:15:24 <int-e> Surely you must have heard of his Alzheimer's disease.
13:16:02 <b_jonas> yes, but still
13:16:26 <b_jonas> sad
13:17:13 <b_jonas> he's going straight to my list of Notable deaths of this century, right now, no waiting time needed for me to consider if he's significant enough in this case
13:18:41 <b_jonas> done. he's 20th.
13:19:00 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Notable_deaths_of_this_century
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14:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, though it didn't seem bad enough to kill him
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14:38:47 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: Who knows. I've read that it was an atypical form of Alzheimer's which affects the back of the brain (and hence, motor skills) first; it's also closer to the pons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pons that regulates breathing...
14:39:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess
14:39:41 <b_jonas> meh, I don't do distance medical diagnosis. I'm just sad he's passed.
14:40:47 <Phantom_Hoover> well it's significant because he was very vocal about his intention to die on his own terms, before the disease took his mind
14:40:53 <int-e> It's not a diagnosis, it's speculation.
14:41:23 <Phantom_Hoover> but according to his publisher it wasn't suicide, assisted or otherwise
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15:36:16 <oren> b_jonas: the list of "redirects from given names" on wikipedia seems to contain a lot of japanese names
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17:07:25 <fizzie> Says something about the cost of public transportation here: my bank's fraud detection systems declined my purchase of an annual ticket due to the "suspiciously high value".
17:10:08 <J_Arcane> Where you at?
17:15:52 <fizzie> London.
17:16:10 <fizzie> London, UK, to be more precise. I guess there are a lot of Londons in the states? There usually are.
17:17:33 <FreeFull> There is a London in Canada
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17:27:17 <oren> London england is better than the one in canada tho
17:27:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hardiholpus * New user account
17:31:36 <quintopia> how much is an annual pass?
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17:34:44 <fizzie> quintopia: For zones 1-2, it's 1284 GBP.
17:34:59 <fizzie> (Around $1900 in American terms.)
17:39:39 <quintopia> hmm. not that bad really...
17:40:18 <quintopia> so anyone have any idea why i can't open a chrome browser window. i can see in the task manager it is running, but there is no visible window. reinstalling doesn't help.
17:43:02 <fizzie> Well, it's worse than in Finland; an annual "local" ticket ("zone 1") is only 546.80 EUR, and even the entire metro area is just 1086.40 EUR. (The London one goes up to 3336 GBP for zones 1-9, but to be fair it's a much bigger system.)
17:43:27 <AndoDaan> Do you have a two/tree screen set up quintopia?
17:43:52 <quintopia> not that i know of, though i'm not sure how to check
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17:44:52 <AndoDaan> Nah, if there's only one screen in front of you then you probably have just the one screen setup then.
17:46:53 <AndoDaan> There pver a thousand people in #Haskell... how is that possible?
17:48:13 <int-e> maybe it's a strange attractor.
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17:48:37 <int-e> it's also a very functional IRC channel
17:48:56 <AndoDaan> ....
17:50:21 <f|`-`|f> ???
17:50:28 <quintopia> int-e: i don't know if i'd put it in that category
17:51:00 <int-e> Despite the pun, I'm serious. The people there are helpful and overall very resistant to being trolled.
17:53:52 <elliott__> no they're not
17:54:09 <elliott__> unless it's gotten a lot better recently
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18:00:21 <int-e> obviously this worked better when there were only 300 people
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18:11:26 <J_Arcane> This is the most idiotic piece of sycophancy I have ever read. http://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2015/03/14/tim-cook-apple-changing-the-world/
18:12:31 <elliott__> thanks for linking it! now we can all feel that way too
18:13:28 <elliott__> haha okay this is great though
18:13:37 <elliott__> god bless the usa
18:20:18 <f|`-`|f> isn't the latest line of apple products more overpriced and underperforming than the last line up?
18:20:42 <coppro> elliott__: you pronounced murrica wrong
18:20:53 <elliott__> idk, let me get my objective apple flamebait calculator out
18:20:53 <f|`-`|f> It doesn't take a Jobs to understand the necessity of basic iteration
18:21:11 <elliott__> back. it says if this is a discussion that ends up happening I'll hate everyone
18:21:18 <int-e> . o O ( What does Apple sell? At a fundamental level, Apple sells change. -- Small and smaller change... shiny coins... )
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18:43:26 <oren> blah, they're changing the world, except Japan, where I didn't see a single Apple product the entire time I was there
18:44:30 <pikhq> Japan is a magical land, where features phones still live.
18:44:39 <coppro> features phones?
18:45:35 <oren> non-smart phones, with like, buttons
18:48:14 <oren> Essentially japan is supposed to be famouse for their technology, but their use of technology is very... conservative, as it were.
18:49:23 <oren> They use windows XP a LOT, flip phones, fax machines, and CASH!
18:50:12 <oren> I paid for my hotel with a giant wad of Yen, apparently that is the normal way
18:57:04 <int-e> paying for bus tickets was too much for me.
18:57:08 <oren> Also I paid for some other stuff with a wire transfer. A *wire transfer*. The people at my bank were kind of... amused
18:57:46 <int-e> I like cash. But it's all reversed; paying when leaving the bus, taking care of one's own change...
18:58:47 <int-e> Odd devices that eat both tickets and cash.
19:00:08 <int-e> (From what I could see, the coins get sorted, while the tickets are shred to pieces.)
19:00:57 <coppro> this is interesting to me, given I'm visiting Japan in May
19:02:53 <oren> To even take out cash, your cards most likely will only work at 7/11 or at the post office (yuubinkyoku)
19:03:13 <int-e> hmm last time they didn't work anywhere at all
19:04:03 <elliott__> thanks for the translation. that will help me with my upcoming plan (keikaku)
19:04:12 <oren> Also, only Visa really works...
19:05:15 <int-e> " All Maestro-branded EMV cards issued outside of the Asia/Pacific region are able to withdraw currency at Seven Bank and AEON Bank ATMs" -- this seems to be new.
19:05:51 <oren> Oh? Hmm, seems they are improving the system
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19:08:24 <oren> elliott: keikaku doori. muhuhahahaha
19:09:38 <int-e> (I lied. The last time I was there, AEON bank would accept the card, but their ATMs were hard to find and I didn't make use of them.)
19:11:51 <int-e> http://www.mastercard.co.jp/personal/atm-notification.html looks official enough, but is there a date?
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19:29:55 <zzo38> I think also in Japan a lot of compressed archives are .lzh although I can still use them on my computer because 7-Zip can open such file.
19:32:24 <b_jonas> oren, int-e: we here also use cash, and some people like me also use phones with buttons that let me type without having to look at the screen constantly
19:32:52 <b_jonas> and that don't require me to pay attention to software updates and disabling internet use and all kinds of nonsense I don't need to just, you know, phone people
19:33:20 <b_jonas> but yes, getting up the bus on the back and getting off at the front and paying when getting off is crazy
19:33:26 <b_jonas> that would never work here
19:34:08 <zzo38> I also prefer to use cash when paying for stuff, as much as possible; I don't have any credit card
19:34:39 <b_jonas> I mix cash and debit card. But in many places here, you can't pay with a card at all.
19:35:05 <b_jonas> Whereas in Sweden you can pay with a card basically _anywhere_
19:41:02 <fizzie> I've used cash here in London exactly twice now, in the about 2.5 months I've been here.
19:41:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: I see
19:41:59 <fizzie> Once when opening a bank account, to give it a nonzero balance, though I guess there was no particular reason for that; and the other day when I couldn't remember the PIN for the debit card, because of jetlag and not having used it at all during the two weeks in the states.
19:42:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: has there been anything you didn't buy because you didn't have enough cash with you, or that you asked someone else to pay for you with cash?
19:42:34 <fizzie> No.
19:42:38 <b_jonas> ok
19:43:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck bitwidth conversions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42129&oldid=42128 * Rdebath * (+3663) Some expansion and alternatives.
19:43:41 <b_jonas> I was in Sweden only for a week. I've seen only one place that required cash (as opposed to card), namely some public toilet. My brother is living there and he says that's true in general.
19:44:18 <fizzie> I think vending machines in general in Finland at least used to be cash-only. Though maybe that has changed. And there aren't that many of them.
19:44:39 <fizzie> Last time I was at the Helsinki Airport, I did buy a drink from an airport vending machine with a credit card.
19:44:48 <fizzie> But airports are special.
19:44:53 <int-e> Of course for vending machine operators, cash is a burden.
19:45:13 <fizzie> You can pay with a mobile phone (by sending a SMS) in many things there these days.
19:45:19 <b_jonas> possible
19:45:19 <fizzie> But I think that generally costs more than cash.
19:45:32 <int-e> So from what I can see here (Austria), there are more vending machines that accept cards but not cash than vice versa.
19:45:53 <fizzie> If memory serves, the soda vending machines at the university took something like 1.60 EUR in coins, or 1.89 EUR with SMS.
19:46:11 <b_jonas> Most vending machines here are cash only, and more than half are coin only. There are some new ones that also accept card, most importantly the new ones that sell public transport tickets and passes, when they work.
19:46:27 <fizzie> Also I feel strange for not paying anything for food at work.
19:46:58 <int-e> Many places accept both debit cards and cash; credit cards are somewhat less popular. And some places (bars, a few small shops) don't accept debit cards either.
19:47:20 <fizzie> AIUI, in Finland it's not even taxationally possible to offer completely free lunches. Or at least very difficult.
19:47:30 <b_jonas> There used to be a few vending machines that worked with phone cards, as an experiment, but they disappeared as most phones accepting phone cards have disappeared. Strantely, there are and were no public payphones that accept both coins and cards here.
19:48:25 <b_jonas> I think there may be some vending machines that work with SMS, I'm not sure. You can buy parking tickets with SMS though.
19:48:57 <int-e> I've never paid anything by SMS.
19:49:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm
19:49:16 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't think I have either. I have paid with phone card a few times.
19:49:39 <b_jonas> For soda.
19:50:18 <fizzie> My wife's place had subsidized lunch prices in the company cafeteria, and you could "pay" with the employee badge and it'd auto-deduct from salary, which I think was a reasonably common policy.
19:50:37 <int-e> that's okay-ish.
19:51:07 <fizzie> And probably almost every workplace cafeteria has a separate (cheaper) employee price. But from what people have told me, the price can't be 0.
19:51:16 <int-e> (-ish because the employer shouldn't really know how much I pay in the cafeteria)
19:52:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: cheaper employee price makes sense
19:52:47 <fizzie> I wonder what Google does in Finland. They've got that data center, and I think a tiny sales office in Helsinki.
19:53:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: could they just ask a very cheap nominal price instead of zero? or is that also banned?
19:53:52 <b_jonas> for employees I mean
19:53:59 <fizzie> I don't know. All I know about this is hearsay.
19:55:42 <b_jonas> or, say, sell a monthly dinner subscription to employees for chea
19:55:49 <zzo38> I don't know if it can be zero, but probably it shouldn't be zero, although it shouldn't be a problem to just decrease the price for employees.
19:56:00 <b_jonas> (a horn of plenty (0:30))
19:56:13 <b_jonas> ((0:31) in some months)
19:56:35 <int-e> YAFGC ... "whoops" indeed. (Tee hee!)
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20:11:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turing Script]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42130&oldid=42117 * * (+57)
20:14:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turing Script]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42131&oldid=42130 * * (+22)
20:16:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turing Script]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42132&oldid=42131 * * (+1)
20:17:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turing Script]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42133&oldid=42132 * * (+0)
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22:41:49 <zzo38> Is it possible that the clock set incorrectly causes HTTPS to stop working sometimes?
22:44:00 <Vorpal> zzo38, if it is way off you could get certificate validation errors. You would need at least several days off, but it would still be rather unlikely. If it is years off (especially in the future) you will run into issues yes
22:44:50 <Vorpal> If we are talking about seconds or minutes: then no
22:45:01 <Vorpal> not as far as I know at least
22:45:50 <zzo38> I am about ten minutes off
22:46:18 <Vorpal> Well, you should sync your clock still, but even so I don't think that would cause issues with https no
22:46:26 <zzo38> Some wikis force HTTPS even though I don't want it, and this causes some problems
22:46:44 <Vorpal> It would break running irc servers (which need to be synced within seconds)
22:47:19 <zzo38> My IRC server isn't part of a larger IRC network, so isn't as much problem
22:47:37 <Vorpal> Still, why run it 10 minutes off?
22:47:48 <Vorpal> Why not just sync with ntp?
22:48:09 <fizzie> TLS handshake includes timestamps (in seconds) from both ends, but I don't think minutes should really break it.
22:48:23 <fizzie> (Also apparently the TLS 1.3 draft drops those.)
22:48:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, it does? To prevent replay attacks?
22:48:51 <zzo38> I will fix the time
22:49:04 <fizzie> Could be. Although I think it has enough nonces in order to not need time.
22:49:09 <Vorpal> Hm
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22:49:35 <zzo38> But, what is the correct time anyways? What daytime server may I connect to?
22:49:50 <Vorpal> pool.ntp.org is the usual ntp server
22:50:02 <Vorpal> daytime server I don't know what you mean by
22:50:46 <fizzie> Daytime is the thing that runs in port 'daytime'.
22:51:49 <fizzie> Sends out an ASCII date in an abritrary format when connected to.
22:52:18 <fizzie> "There is no specific syntax for the daytime. It is recommended that it be limited to the ASCII printing characters, space, carriage return, and line feed. The daytime should be just one line." (RFC 867)
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22:52:58 <zzo38> I found one
22:53:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, That is the most underspecified crap of a non-joke RFC I have seen
22:53:25 <Vorpal> Worse than the IRC RFC
22:53:53 <fizzie> It's kind of meant for humans.
22:54:25 <fizzie> RFC 868 describes the machine-readable counterpart.
22:55:20 <Vorpal> I don't get why zzo38 isn't just using ntp though?
22:55:32 <fizzie> I'm not surprised, really.
22:55:35 <zzo38> There are also other chat protocols tham IRC but I have looked and don't like it much, and I think IRC is more better
22:55:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: I don't have a NTP client, also apparently they require a password?
22:56:31 <Vorpal> Err no?
22:57:08 <Vorpal> Even windows has a built in ntp client I believe in the time and date settings
22:57:26 <zzo38> I just used the TIME command to set the time though
22:57:31 <Vorpal> It doesn't work very well (it syncs quite rarely), but it is still something
22:58:49 <fizzie> Good thing you talked about NTP, though, made me realize I should drop off the former ISP's time server from the list.
22:59:29 <Vorpal> heh
22:59:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, I used ptp recently, because ntp didn't keep the clocks in sync well enough
23:00:04 <fizzie> The router-modem my current ISP gave me has uk.pool.ntp.org and time.nist.gov configured as time sources by default.
23:00:19 <Vorpal> I just switch to pool.ntp.org normally
23:00:32 <Vorpal> uk.pool.ntp.org should work too
23:00:50 <Vorpal> I believe pool without any country prefix is geodns-ed anyway
23:02:12 <Vorpal> Hm how do I see what kernel module is handling a certain network interface?
23:02:20 <Vorpal> lspci doesn't help, it is not a PCI device
23:02:35 <Vorpal> Nor does lsusb help of course (not an USB device)
23:02:41 <fizzie> I'm guessing sysfs.
23:02:49 <fizzie> Something in /sys/class/net/$interface/ maybe.
23:03:58 <Vorpal> xen:vif apparently
23:04:00 <Vorpal> Okay
23:04:13 <Vorpal> So ethtool probably won't work
23:04:48 <fizzie> Apparently the source of the official UK time (the National Physical Laboratory) runs public NTP servers (ntp[12].npl.co.uk) too.
23:05:12 <Vorpal> Hm my desktop network interface support PTP hardware clock
23:05:13 <Vorpal> cool
23:05:22 <Vorpal> Don't have a use for it though
23:06:29 <fizzie> I almost ended up connecting two devices with three parallel Ethernet links the other day, for really stupid reasons.
23:09:34 <int-e> thtahttah tad tod eodseonse'nst'n t's tos uosnuodnu dnt dot oot oob oab dabdad
23:10:14 <Koen_> it looks like we're breaking up I can hardly make out what you say
23:10:25 <fizzie> It wouldn't have been for anything smart like load-balancing/bundling.
23:10:32 <int-e> > let s = "that doesn't sound too bad" in concat $ transpose [s,' ':s,' ':' ':s] -- I didn't actually type that.
23:10:33 <lambdabot> "t ht ahttah tad tod eodseonse'nst'n t's tos uosnuodnu dnt dot oot oob oab ...
23:10:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, what was it for then?
23:11:42 <int-e> or perhaps I should write it as concat . transpose . take 3 . iterate (' ':) $ s.
23:12:20 <Koen_> int-e: kinda reminds me of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine#Glypho
23:12:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'll try to make a long story short. My new ISP gave me a /29 IPv4 subnet, and a router with an integrated modem; they talk PPPoE over PTM-mode VDSL2. The "standard" configuration of having their router-modem terminate the PPPoE works, but they use some proxyarp stuff (because the PPP link negotiates a public IP inside the /29, and the router has to forward stuff to the rest of the ...
23:12:44 <fizzie> ... hosts), and initially it seemed like it'd require distinct MAC addresses for any distinct IP's. Since my own Linux router-box had four Ethernet interfaces, plugging three of them into the router-modem was one of the workarounds I was considering.
23:13:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: Later it turned out that it doesn't require distinct MACs, and I was probably just messing something else up.
23:13:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could also solve that using some bridges and promisc mode perhaps?
23:14:02 <fizzie> Or macvlan devices.
23:14:22 <Vorpal> I'm not familiar with those, but sounds reasonable based on the name
23:14:31 <int-e> thtahta td odeosens'nt' ts osuonudn dt otoo ob abdad -- I guess the two list version is already bad enough.
23:14:37 <fizzie> The setup I *wanted* to make was to have the router-modem in pure "bridged" mode, and have the Linux box terminate the PPPoE connection, but for some reason I've just been unable to make that work.
23:15:18 <fizzie> It's one of these "real Busybox shell is too dangerous so we'll just provide a custom CLI" devices, so I can't peek into how they've configured PPPoE.
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23:15:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm with macwlan doesn't the interface still need to run in promisc mode?
23:16:10 <Vorpal> To not filter the mac addresses at hardware levek
23:16:12 <Vorpal> level*
23:16:15 <fizzie> I guess, but I think that happens automatically.
23:16:40 <Vorpal> Right
23:16:59 <fizzie> Back in Finland I kinda-sorta used the "some bridges" mode to solve a different but analogous problem.
23:17:28 <fizzie> (The ISP there allocated all addresses strictly over DHCP, and you need distinct MACs to get multiple IPs requested out of a DHCP server.)
23:21:09 <fizzie> Now I'm not sure whether I should debug the "Linux server as PPPoE endpoint" issue more, since what I have now mostly works, and the only drawbacks seem to be slight feeling of inelegance, and the fact that one public IP is "wasted" on the router-modem. (But I don't need that many anyway.)
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23:28:35 <tswett> I 'I m'I m'g mog iogniogni gnt got ott oat latkla kll kil kileki ekt eht ihtsih sie sxe cxelcxulcsulisuvisevilevyle ylf yrf orfmor mon mon won woo wno .no.n.
23:29:40 <tswett> Nah, I can do better.
23:29:44 <tswett> I I'I'm'm m g gogoioiningng g t toto o t tatalalklk k l lilikikeke e t ththihisis s e exexcxclclulususisivivevelelyly y f frfroromom m n nonowow w o onon.n..
23:31:39 <int-e> nice.
23:31:42 <fizzie> Annoying thing: "adb shell ls ..." for some reason uses "\r\n" as the newline.
23:32:04 <oerjan> @messages
23:32:48 <oerjan> @tell boily And a good boiling to you
23:32:48 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:33:02 <int-e> chicken soup?
23:33:12 <oerjan> POSSIBLY
23:33:34 <boily> PERHAPS
23:33:43 <boily> @clear-massages
23:33:43 <lambdabot> Messages cleared.
23:33:57 <boily> hellørjan hth
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23:34:21 * boily mapoles tswett back into a coherent reality
23:34:24 <oerjan> k/ /ki ikc bananananasty ststswewettttt
23:35:44 <int-e> ITYM / /k/kikicickckbkbabanan n n nanasaststyty y t tstswswewetettttt HTH
23:36:05 <oerjan> int-e: i dunno, no one told me the rules
23:36:21 <int-e> > let s = "some rules" in concat $ transpose [s,' ':s,s]
23:36:22 <lambdabot> "s sosomomeme e r rurululelesess"
23:37:34 <tswett> > let s = "nonmonogamous" in concat $ transpose [s,' ':s,s]
23:37:36 <lambdabot> "n nonononmnmomonononogogagamamomouoususs"
23:37:36 <int-e> sosomo-meme
23:37:48 <tswett> > let s = "onomatopoeia" in concat $ transpose [s,' ':s,s]
23:37:49 <lambdabot> "o onononomomamatatotopopopoeoeieiaiaa"
23:38:09 <oerjan> f fafanancncycyy
23:38:33 <tswett> O ononono momamata totopopopo eoeiei aiaa.
23:38:55 <Vorpal> good night
23:39:09 <int-e> I I I r reregegrgreretet t n nonotoththihiningng.g..
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23:50:44 <boily> Old McDonal had a farm, O ononono momamata totopopopo eoeiei aiaa ♪
23:53:10 <boily> > let s = "O ononono momamata totopopopo eoeiei aiaa." in concat $ transpose [s,' ':s,s]
23:53:11 <lambdabot> "O O O o ononononononononono o m momomomamamamamatatata a t tototototopopopo...
23:53:20 <boily> meh. too long.
23:53:29 <oerjan> Was there, perchance, on this farm, a c cocowoww ?
23:54:52 <boily> probably a c chchickicknenn?
23:57:50 <fizzie> Oh, right, this is even channel-relevant.
23:57:51 <fizzie> As seen in the Computer History Museum, their big programming language timeline poster: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20150315-intercal.jpg
23:59:27 <oerjan> clearly that is missing Feather
23:59:31 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20150315-intercal_full.jpg is the whole thing.
23:59:41 <fizzie> It's missing many things. I think INTERCAL was the only esolang that made the cut.
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