←2015-03-30 2015-03-31 2015-04-01→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:11:55 <zzo38> Probably, although RDF files are often plain text so you can read them anyways
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00:23:31 <FireFly> I learned that relatively recently. It seems suspiciously TeX-like--do you know if there is any relation between the two?
00:23:45 <FireFly> Wait, sorry, was thinking of RTF
00:33:50 <olsner> iirc RDF is suspiciously HTML-like
00:34:35 <olsner> e.g. XML but with bendy rules
00:34:43 <shachaf> hellolsner
00:38:03 <orin> .quit
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01:07:54 <coppro> Melvar: Konsole, like all of KDE, uses UCS2
01:08:29 <coppro> an astral character may display correctly, but it counts as two for various things
01:16:23 <pikhq> coppro: Ugh.
01:16:34 <pikhq> UCS2 of all things...
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01:38:35 <quintopia> :/
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01:56:07 <FireFly> I found that out when I wanted to try to fix KCharSelect not supporting codepoints outside the BMP
01:56:40 <FireFly> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qchar.html I don't think it'll change anytime soon :\
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02:45:17 <zzo38> olsner: No, RDF isn't specifically XML; XML is one format to store RDF data, but another is Turtle.
02:45:36 <zzo38> My own FOAF file also stores RDF data, but it is Turtle rather than XML.
02:45:37 <zzo38> See?
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02:57:28 <quintopia> which is better?
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04:10:03 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, I prefer to use Turtle, but some prefer XML. For a simple (but not very good for writing by hand and reading manually either) format, there is N-Triples. Any N-Triples document is a valid Turtle document though; N-Triples is a subset of Turtle.
04:11:16 <zzo38> (Therefore any Turtle parser also parses N-Triples. The SQLite extension I wrote can convert Turtle into N-Triples.)
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07:48:51 <mroman> Hm.
07:49:00 <mroman> so...
07:49:08 <mroman> I'll invent a religion that is offended by taxes
07:49:16 <mroman> then I move to indiana, stop paying my taxes
07:49:36 <Taneb> I don't think that law is enforced if your religion is not christianity
07:49:41 <mroman> :(
07:49:44 <mroman> darn.
07:49:51 <Jafet> You may need to pay the politicians instead.
07:50:26 <Jafet> Apparently \sum_{k=0}^n k \binom{n}{k} = n 2^{n-1}.
07:50:42 <mroman> but I could sell my religion as a sub-group of christianity
07:50:52 <mroman> there are lots of christian churches with slightly different beleives out there.
07:51:03 <mroman> possibly believes.
07:51:09 <Jafet> Or you could just join that religion
07:51:23 <mroman> No way!
07:51:33 <mroman> I wana be a pope.
07:51:37 <mroman> Of my own christian church.
07:51:41 <Taneb> The word you want is beliefs
07:51:44 <Taneb> Believes is a verb
07:51:50 <mroman> I like the fancy dresses I could wear then.
07:52:35 <mroman> although not all christian churches have popes.
07:52:39 <mroman> I guess it's just the catholics?
07:53:15 <Jafet> Oh, the proof of that identity is obvious
07:53:17 <mroman> It's funny that protestants and catholics more or less have the same beliefs but protestants kinda see the pope as a phony.
07:54:04 <mroman> fungot: What are your beliefs?
07:54:04 <fungot> mroman: who is yome? arcus? gnomon? are you using ubuntu 5.10?)
07:54:10 <mroman> fungot: Debian.
07:54:11 <fungot> mroman: there's two of them touch when using framebuffer
07:54:19 <mroman> fungot: What?
07:54:20 <fungot> mroman: i used the c subset for the most part, its going to be
07:55:31 <mroman> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/parents-could-be-reported-to-police-if-children-play-violent-video-games-like-call-of-duty-and-grand-theft-auto-10141697.html
07:55:34 <mroman> What a shame.
07:55:48 <mroman> Everybody knows that you have to start playing these games at 14 years old to become a pro by 18
07:56:04 <mroman> then slowly decay until you completely suck at age 24 because you're eyes aren't fast enough anymore.
07:56:10 <mroman> *your
07:56:13 <FireFly> fungot: A C subset? Sounds pretty limited
07:56:13 <fungot> FireFly: i would simply use midi
07:56:27 <FireFly> fungot: so you're into music-based esolangs
07:56:27 <fungot> FireFly: what is /dev/ random, but there's no message, window creation just silently errors out :)
07:56:37 <mroman> Is C without pointers still turing complete?
07:59:10 <coppro> yes
07:59:16 <coppro> well, uh
07:59:20 <coppro> can you still use arrays?
07:59:22 <coppro> if so, yes.
07:59:39 <coppro> if not... yeah, you have recursion
07:59:44 <Jafet> Since C isn't turing complete to begin with...
07:59:57 <b_jonas> coppro: recursion isn't enough
08:00:07 <mroman> Jafet: True.
08:00:10 <coppro> b_jonas: you have recursion and branching
08:00:11 <b_jonas> but in any case, you can use files and seeks
08:00:23 <b_jonas> coppro: even still, that just makes a stack automaton
08:01:09 <mroman> coppro: aren't arrays just pointers?
08:01:25 <mroman> a[b] is defined as *(a+b) or something
08:01:34 <mroman> also a[b] == b[a]
08:02:04 <b_jonas> no wait, without pointers you can't open a file
08:02:07 <b_jonas> damn
08:02:10 <b_jonas> then I dunno
08:02:49 <mroman> but let's forbid array neveretheless for fun
08:02:54 <mroman> no arrays. :)
08:03:16 <mroman> & * and [] are disallowed.
08:03:37 <coppro> Jafet: it's useful to talk about C being "turing-complete" in a slightly less strict sense
08:04:19 <coppro> while C, by definition, has finite memory, we can easily pretend it has unbounded memory, or you could make logical or actual shims to get around this
08:04:37 <coppro> (e.g. "compile this code with N bit pointers, if it runs out of memory, compile with 2N bit pointers, etc."
08:05:11 <coppro> mroman: http://c-faq.com/aryptr/aryptr2.html
08:06:49 <ais523> coppro: there is file access in the C standard
08:07:03 <ais523> and nothing in the standard restricts an impl from providing infinitely large files
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08:08:56 <mroman> coppro: That's why I added "let's forbid array nevertheless" :)
08:11:52 <coppro> ais523: true, but that's not reliable either
08:12:11 <coppro> but I suppose that it does let you get around the inherent boundedness
08:12:18 <coppro> it's more interesting to do as I described though :
08:12:19 <coppro> :)
08:12:42 <ais523> also there's the weird case of forming a PDA using register variables and recursion
08:12:51 <ais523> I don't believe anything in C prevents that being possible
08:14:02 <coppro> anyway, b_jonas might have it right. I'm having difficulty convincing myself you can do better than a DPDA, since the memory you have access to at any given point is finite
08:15:29 <ais523> well, exploiting UB you have other options
08:15:41 <ais523> like longjmp /into/ a function, which is totally illegal
08:16:03 <ais523> but which does normally work in practice if you're jumping back to the function you just came from with no function calls in between
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08:16:13 <coppro> again, let's not assume that works
08:16:18 <ais523> actually, is that TC?
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08:22:20 <coppro> callforjudgement: I odn't think so
08:22:50 <callforjudgement> I'm trying to figure out what our assumptions are
08:23:01 <callforjudgement> you have a stack, and a pointer into that stack
08:23:08 <callforjudgement> the pointer can be moved downwards, or to the top
08:23:12 <callforjudgement> and you can push and pop things on the stack
08:23:18 <callforjudgement> oh, it is TC
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08:23:26 <ais523> that gives you enough control to use the stack as a queue
08:23:31 <ais523> and one queue is enough
08:23:56 <ais523> admittedly, the construction I'm thinking of contains a memory leak, but that doesn't matter for TCness
08:24:29 <coppro> it can't be moved arbitrarily anywhere
08:24:39 <FireFly> How is it moved to the top of the stack?
08:24:46 <coppro> oh, I see what you're thinking of
08:24:49 <ais523> FireFly: by longjmping to yourself
08:24:51 <coppro> yes, I think that works
08:25:08 <FireFly> oh.
08:27:08 <b_jonas> ais523: you can't longjmp without pointers either
08:27:18 <b_jonas> ais523: longjmp takes a pointer argument
08:27:28 <b_jonas> or doesn't it?
08:27:41 <ais523> b_jonas: it takes a jmp_buf argument
08:27:43 <ais523> which is opaque
08:27:44 <b_jonas> oh, it doesn't
08:27:46 <b_jonas> great
08:27:57 <b_jonas> hmm
08:28:11 <ais523> admittedly you could make the point of "a jmp_buf must be finitely large, so you can use memcpy to look at the individual bits"
08:28:29 <ais523> however, it could be implemented as offsets into a jump table with finitely many keys, but unboundedly large values
08:38:23 <elliott> is jmp_buf allowed to fail?
08:38:36 <ais523> jmp_buf is a type
08:38:43 <ais523> I don't think setjmp is allowed to fail, but I'm not sure
08:39:07 <ais523> it isn't
08:39:14 <ais523> I happen to have a C11 draft open
08:39:18 <ais523> so I quickly checked
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09:21:35 <cpressey> hello
09:25:25 <cpressey> http://divisbyzero.com/2014/08/27/tangent-lines-to-the-sine-function-with-rational-slope/ <- I am very suspicious. I don't think this is right.
09:25:44 <cpressey> trivially, m=0 is also rational and also a tangent of the sine curve
09:26:30 <cpressey> less trivially... surely if a and c are irrational and b is rational and a < b < c and there is a continuous curve from a to c, it passes through b?
09:26:35 <cpressey> that one i'm less sure of
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09:44:42 <cpressey> "...and a similar proof holds for the sine and cosine functions. Thus," <-- SLOPPY
09:45:27 <cpressey> The "similar proof" seems to be "if α is a nonzero algebraic number then sin(α), cos(α), tan(α) are transcendental"
09:46:16 <cpressey> what if α is nonzero, but non-algebraic, i.e. rational?
09:46:44 <cpressey> am I the only one awake here right now? :)
09:47:08 <Taneb> cpressey, I am looking at it
09:47:23 <Taneb> I think all rationals are algebraic
09:47:49 <cpressey> Taneb: yeah, technically that's true
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09:49:30 <Taneb> Because a/b is a root of bx-a = 0
09:49:53 <cpressey> But then how can you say simple things like "slope = dy/dx = tan(theta)"? if tan(theta) is transcendental, then it's irrational, and cannot be expressed by dy/dx !
09:51:19 <cpressey> I suspect there's some subtlety lurking in "transcendental" vs "irrational"
09:52:01 <Taneb> dy and dx are not integers, or indeed rationals
09:52:14 <Taneb> So dy/dx is not a rational
09:52:21 <mroman> höhö. Real Time Ad Bidding
09:52:26 <mroman> What a genius idea
09:52:52 <cpressey> ok; then you can only say "dy/dx = tan(theta)" if either dy or dx or both is irrational
09:54:04 <cpressey> so weird, because it seems to be the equivalent of saying there is no theta such that tan(theta) = 1/2
09:54:08 <Taneb> I believe dy and dx are both infinitismals
09:54:32 * cpressey backs away in fear
09:54:42 <Taneb> (in the context of derivatives)
09:54:46 <Taneb> Calculus is not my strong suit
09:54:56 <Taneb> However I agree that the conclusion of that blog post seems wrong
09:58:15 <cpressey> Taneb: calculus is *definitely* not my strong suit; this is actually the first thing lately in it that has piqued my interest. thanks for looking at it...
10:00:06 <Melvar> < coppro> an astral character may display correctly, but it counts as two for various things – Well, for what things? I need some kind of testcase to subject candidate recommendations to.
10:02:34 <cpressey> maybe the theta in tan(theta) = 1/2 is BEYOND TRANSCENDENTAL!!!
10:03:11 <cpressey> ok, unlikely
10:03:31 <cpressey> my word, this coffee is awful
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10:16:11 <Taneb> cpressey, that theta is certainly transcendental
10:18:53 <Taneb> Aha!
10:19:10 <Taneb> It's not asking whether there are any lines with rational gradient that are tangent to sin(x)
10:19:32 <Taneb> It's asking whether there are any lines with rational gradient that also go throw the origin that are tangent to sin(x)
10:22:43 <cpressey> ah. ok, that eliminates m=0
10:22:58 <cpressey> yeah, he didn't say y=mx+b, he just said y=mx
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10:25:21 <cpressey> so that kind of reduces it to... what kind of number is arctan(1/2)? because, if tan(theta) is transcendental for theta != 0, ...
10:25:55 <cpressey> which could be reduced to "inverses of transcendental functions, how do they work?"
10:26:45 <cpressey> is the range really restricted to irrational numbers (and we just fudge it for practical purposes?)
10:27:17 <cpressey> s/range/domain/
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10:29:52 <cpressey> you know, it might actually *be* "beyond transcendental"
10:30:18 <cpressey> an uncomputable real (or at least, inexpressible as a transcendental)
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10:38:05 <oerjan> <shachaf> scow <-- so what's "scow" in hebrew
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10:55:51 <oerjan> <mroman> but I could sell my religion as a sub-group of christianity <-- tricky, i'm afraid that biblical jesus explicitly answered the question of whether to pay taxes.
10:56:46 <mroman> oerjan: he did?
10:57:43 <mroman> that capitalist.
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10:59:05 <oerjan> matthew 22:17-21
10:59:22 <oerjan> actually the english seems to use "tribute"
11:00:03 <oerjan> although it *may* be a bit confusing with us dollars, they have *both* a picture of a president and "in god we trust" on them.
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11:02:02 <cpressey> oerjan: so what kind of number is arctan(1/2) anyway
11:02:15 <oerjan> > arctan (1/2)
11:02:16 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘arctan’
11:02:16 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘atan’ (imported from Prelude)
11:02:23 <oerjan> > atan (1/2)
11:02:24 <lambdabot> 0.4636476090008061
11:02:28 <oerjan> > atan (1/2) / pi
11:02:30 <lambdabot> 0.14758361765043326
11:02:40 <mroman> well
11:02:41 <cpressey> because if theta != 0 then tan(theta) is transcendental, and 1/2 is not transcendental
11:02:46 <mroman> I can't give my money back to the guys that are on the bill
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11:02:49 <mroman> because they are dead
11:03:20 <oerjan> cpressey: erm presumably theta must be rational or algebraic or the like for that to be true.
11:03:38 <cpressey> algebraic, yes. and 1/2 is algebraic
11:04:27 <cpressey> er -- not that 1/2 being algebraic is very relevant.
11:04:33 <oerjan> atan(1) is pi/4 iirc
11:04:36 <cpressey> (i think. easy to get confused)
11:04:43 <oerjan> > atan 1 / pi
11:04:44 <lambdabot> 0.25
11:06:49 <cpressey> oerjan: you can see the log for context, but: a "slight variation" on Lindemann–Weierstrass theorem says that if a is algebraic and != 0, sin(a) is transcendental. so... if sin(a) is 1/2, it's not transcendental, so... is a not algebraic?
11:06:56 <cpressey> a is transcendental
11:06:58 <cpressey> i guess
11:07:13 <oerjan> oh sin is easier
11:07:19 <oerjan> > asin(1/2)/pi
11:07:21 <lambdabot> 0.16666666666666669
11:07:26 <cpressey> well, any transcendental function would suffer from this it seems
11:07:33 <oerjan> it's pi/6
11:07:45 <cpressey> ok ok i don't care about the values
11:07:51 <oerjan> which is indeed not algebraic
11:07:56 <cpressey> let me try the other tack
11:08:08 <oerjan> cpressey: but yes, that does imply a is not algebraic.
11:08:08 <cpressey> surely if a and c are irrational and b is rational and a < b < c and there is a continuous curve from a to c, it passes through b?
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11:08:32 <oerjan> yes, that's the intermediate value theorem.
11:08:52 <cpressey> oerjan: then how what why http://divisbyzero.com/2014/08/27/tangent-lines-to-the-sine-function-with-rational-slope/
11:09:31 <cpressey> surely there will be SOME slope that passes through a rational as the slope varies as you "slide" up and down the sine curve
11:10:05 <oerjan> yes. and this is a problem how?
11:10:11 <cpressey> OH
11:10:21 <cpressey> through the ORIGIN
11:10:24 <cpressey> oh jeez
11:10:31 <cpressey> ok n/m
11:10:39 <cpressey> that result seems ultra-trivial now
11:11:01 <oerjan> um that link does not speak about the origin?
11:11:08 <cpressey> yes, it does
11:11:57 <cpressey> just reading comprehension fail on my part -- even after Taneb pointed it out (i was thinking y-axis for some reason)
11:13:07 <cpressey> I still think there's some right weirdness about transcendental functions
11:13:14 <cpressey> but it's much less weird than it seemed earlier
11:13:57 <Taneb> oerjan, US dollars tell us to trust God when He says give to Washington what is Washington's or something
11:14:48 <oerjan> Taneb: fiendish
11:15:22 <Taneb> Is Washington even on US currency?
11:17:31 <cpressey> until they replace the $1 bill with a coin, like all the SANE countries have done, i think he is
11:17:54 <cpressey> or is that someone else? don't really rememebr
11:18:07 <oerjan> it is washington
11:18:10 <Taneb> I haven't been to the US since I was 3
11:18:14 * oerjan was just looking it up
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11:27:47 <cpressey> i get it now; flipside of Lindemann–Weierstrass; if f(a) is rational, and f is a transcendental function, then a must be transcendental
11:28:45 <cpressey> well, or at least for sin/cos/tan; there may be other, weirder functions
11:29:46 <oerjan> <cpressey> I NEED SOMETHING TO ENTERTAIN ME WHILE I OPTIMIZE QUERIES THROUGH THE GAUZE OF AN ORM <-- this gets so much better if you use the norwegian meaning of ORM
11:30:30 <oerjan> or rather, the norse meaning, which sort of includes dragons
11:31:56 <oerjan> cpressey: i'm not sure that "transcendental function" has a very exact meaning
11:32:03 <Melvar> “wyrm”?
11:32:12 <oerjan> Melvar: that's cognate, yes
11:32:31 <oerjan> also to "worm", naturally.
11:33:20 <Melvar> Yes, but given the inclusion of dragons, “wyrm” seemed more appropriate to ask.
11:34:03 <oerjan> cpressey: if you define it simply as "not algebraic", then it would include fairly trivial counterexamples.
11:34:12 <Melvar> And then there’s the Zamonian Orm, which is … writer’s divine inspiration, I guess?
11:34:28 <oerjan> i think "wyrm" may be just the old plural of "worm"?
11:35:03 <Melvar> @ety wyrm
11:35:03 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TemplateHaskell is not enabled
11:35:22 <Melvar> … huh.
11:36:14 <oerjan> @ety
11:36:14 <lambdabot> Define what?
11:36:44 <oerjan> int-e: bug ^
11:37:00 <int-e> are you sure?
11:37:16 <int-e> ety has editing distance two from let...
11:37:27 <oerjan> aha
11:37:59 <oerjan> my brain somehow saw "Define what?" and thought "ok, that sounds like a dictionary command"
11:38:26 <int-e> (Yes this auto-correction can be very confusing. But that's a different matter.)
11:39:02 <oerjan> ok "wyrm" isn't plural, just an older form
11:39:45 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/worm
11:40:32 <Melvar> An older form for an older sense, to a degree. Neat.
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11:41:27 <cpressey> Wonderful Object-Relational Mapper (with heavy sarcasm on the "wonderful")
11:43:37 <int-e> As in Pandora's box of wonders?
11:45:03 <int-e> . o O ( Though perhaps that analagy is too optimistic; there was hope in *that* box. )
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11:46:12 <Melvar> In German, the more general sort of worms has mostly only survived in compounds like “Lindwurm” and “Tatzelwurm”.
11:47:07 <oerjan> <Taneb> I believe dy and dx are both infinitismals <-- that is if you are giving them separate meanings at all; in elementary calculus definitions dy/dx is not really decomposed into dy and dx, but is more like a notation for a higher-order function
11:48:51 <oerjan> there's also an option of considering dy and dx as differential forms
11:49:12 <oerjan> which means they're still not numbers
11:49:25 <b_jonas> oh, we're at wurms and worms and wyrms?
11:49:35 * cpressey backs away in even more fear
11:50:27 <oerjan> cpressey: dy/dx is leibnit?z's intuitive notation, which works if you know what you're doing.
11:51:22 <oerjan> no t, apparently
11:51:40 <oerjan> (although at least one website got it wrong)
11:56:15 <cpressey> oerjan: and here i thought slope was just "rise over run"
11:56:40 <cpressey> who knows who put that phrase into my head
11:56:49 <cpressey> some math teacher, way back when
11:56:57 <oerjan> that's the average slope
11:57:08 <oerjan> but if you want slope at a point, you must take the limit of that
11:57:17 <cpressey> yes, i suppose you must
11:58:04 <cpressey> and then it gets all ugly
11:58:59 <oerjan> not necessarily uglier than when you don't take the limit
11:59:45 <oerjan> the limit allows you to toss away many of the error terms
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12:12:10 <cpressey> well... philosophically ugly?
12:13:14 <cpressey> "infinitesimals"
12:13:49 <cpressey> some will wave their hands, others will attempt to build a workable basis under it
12:15:15 <cpressey> still others will shout "NO!", perhaps
12:15:27 <oerjan> the definitions in introductory calculus don't use infinitesimals.
12:16:26 <cpressey> indeed, you don't need to, but you can, and then they call your system of analysis "non-standard" for some reason
12:16:40 <oerjan> that's just an alternative approach which takes some really heavy stuff to get consistent, and which also happens to be what people hand-waved *before* they learned how to define calculus properly.
12:17:23 <cpressey> fine. i'm a finitist. i only believe in finitesimals. of course, i'm only taking this position in order to intentionally make it ugly
12:19:40 <cpressey> wikipedia does not have a page for Finitesimal
12:19:44 <cpressey> their loss
12:22:57 <cpressey> and yet... https://www.wordnik.com/words/finitesimal
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12:42:22 <cpressey> actually, i wonder if i AM a finitist
12:43:02 <cpressey> i'm certainly not an ultrafinitist. that's just silly.
12:43:41 <cpressey> i believe the definition of infinite sets is valid, even though they can never be concretely realized
12:45:11 <cpressey> huh, it's kind of like how aesthetic philosophers can say that a picture of a unicorn has a null denotation, because unicorns don't exist
12:45:19 <cpressey> (as if they know unicorns don't exist)
12:54:06 <cpressey> would an ultrafinitist assert that 2↑↑↑6 - 2↑↑↑6 cannot be shown to be 0, on the grounds that 2↑↑↑6 is just too darn big?
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12:55:13 <oerjan> maybe sufficiently big numbers are susceptible to bit errors
13:01:27 <int-e> . o O ( Please stand by while we evaluate that difference... )
13:03:50 <int-e> Please convince me that 2↑↑6 is a natural number. I already have trouble fitting 6^6^6^6 into my (computer's) brain...
13:03:59 <int-e> ...
13:04:49 <int-e> Sorry that has nothing to do with it. But indeed 2^2^2^2^2^2 is too large for my computer. :)
13:04:54 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Esenin-Volpin#Mathematical_work
13:05:05 <oerjan> box quote
13:06:38 <int-e> yeah.
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13:07:09 <int-e> oerjan: I think I anticipated this in my "Please stand by" remark.
13:08:05 <oerjan> anticipation is the sincerest form of imitation
13:09:10 <int-e> From a different perspective, math is about anticipation: I anticipate that 2↑↑↑6 - 2↑↑↑6 is zero.
13:09:18 <int-e> s/is/will be/
13:10:15 <oerjan> what is the ratio of anticipation to perspiration
13:10:43 <int-e> Ooh, infinity?!
13:11:03 <int-e> I mean I actually anticipate that n-n = 1 for any natural number n.
13:11:10 <int-e> ...
13:11:14 <int-e> spot the typo.
13:11:18 <cpressey> 2 is a natural number, 6 is a natural number, and and arrowarrowarrow maps pairs of natural numbers to natural numbers
13:12:22 <int-e> (I have no excuse for that. I simply should not think about n/n while typing n-n...)
13:12:29 <cpressey> actually, i don't know what i am, because in some sense i believe 1/0 - 1/0 = 0, too
13:12:55 <myname> https://youtu.be/g10DqPbbUuw that combination of video and music disturbs me
13:13:05 <int-e> cpressey: Right, there's some grounds for doubting that 2^^^6 is a natural number.
13:13:59 <oerjan> i used to be an infinitist, but then i took an arrow to the knee
13:14:00 <cpressey> int-e: i don't see them, though (unless they lie in the area of doubt about the validity of structural induction)
13:14:02 <int-e> I'm pretty sure that 1/0 is not a natural number, as a matter of anticipation: Such a natural number d would have to satisfy d*0 = 1, but I anticipate that d*0 will always be 0 instead.
13:14:28 <oerjan> (today's retro-meme sponsored by coca-cola (TM))
13:14:33 <int-e> (I also anticipate this discussion getting out of hand.)
13:16:06 <Taneb> oerjan, 2012 is retro!?
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13:16:53 <oerjan> isn't it older than that
13:17:56 <Taneb> Skyrim came out in November 2011
13:18:01 <Taneb> So yes, but not by much
13:19:04 <oerjan> of course the first thing i heard about the meme was people being sick of it
13:21:55 <cpressey> i also think I believe there are more natural numbers than there are even natural numbers
13:22:20 <cpressey> yes, i know those two sets have the same cardinality
13:22:57 <mroman> hm.
13:23:08 <mroman> I'd say that the set of natural numbers should be bigger than the set of even/odd numbers
13:23:14 <mroman> since only every second number is even/odd
13:23:15 <mroman> so
13:23:16 <Taneb> I believe that the weather is terrible here right now
13:23:22 <Taneb> ~metar EGNT
13:23:26 <mroman> the set of natural numbers should be twice as large.
13:23:55 <cpressey> that only seems intuitive. and, as we all know, in mathematics, intuition reigns
13:24:08 <mroman> Afterall
13:24:17 <mroman> every number except 1 should be the same size as every number except 2
13:24:33 <mroman> and smaller then the set of every number
13:24:34 <mroman> *than
13:24:39 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
13:24:40 <lambdabot> ENVA 311320Z 25005KT 210V290 9999 FEW040TCU 05/M03 Q0982 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 33003KT
13:24:46 <Taneb> @metar EGNT
13:24:47 <lambdabot> EGNT 311320Z 28024G35KT 9999 FEW015CB 07/01 Q1000
13:24:49 <mroman> At least that's my intuition as a sucker at math.
13:26:21 <mroman> 1/n for n -> infinity is infinity too
13:26:30 <mroman> eh
13:26:33 <mroman> 1/n for n -> 0 is infinity
13:26:52 <mroman> which suggests that infinity * 0 may be 1!
13:27:22 <mroman> which doesn't make sense :)
13:28:11 <cpressey> 1/n for n -> infinity is 0 (according to many people)
13:28:48 <mroman> yep
13:28:52 <mroman> i meant -> 0
13:31:25 <cpressey> just because 1/0 - 1/0 = 0 (in my current madness) doesn't mean that 1/0 = infinity, i should note
13:32:26 <cpressey> it's more that 1/0 is "poorly defined" but - is able to operate on things that are poorly defined
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13:36:36 <cpressey> i would have to work this out in detail, but "how many [even] natural numbers" are also "poorly defined", but again, > is able to operate on them
13:37:08 <cpressey> i'm just kind of hoping someone here sees my madness as says "oh yes, i've seen that before, that's ____ism"
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14:40:07 <cpressey> you may well ask what i believe 0 * 1/0 to be.
14:40:11 <cpressey> it's very simple.
14:40:23 <cpressey> 0 * 1/0 contains a race condition, and should not be used in production mathematics
14:41:00 <coppro> Melvar: in a terminal emulator, it will sort of occupy two columns
14:41:02 <coppro> sort of not
14:41:19 <coppro> if you backspace it, you only delete the second surrogate and not the first also
14:48:20 <cpressey> another option is that 0 * 1/0 = {0, 1}. why should square root have all the fun of being multi-valued?
14:50:16 <Taneb> cpressey, 0*x = 0, so {0, 1} = 0 * 1/0 = (0*x) * 1/0 = 0 * (x * 1/0) = 0 * (x/0) = x???
14:52:01 <Melvar> coppro: I’ve never noticed any such errors in either gnome-terminal or xfce4-terminal, fwiw.
14:53:21 <Taneb> cpressey, I am suggesting that the set of values 0 * 1/0 is the set of values multiplication is defined for and remains associative
14:54:37 <cpressey> Taneb: yes, well. race conditions are nasty
14:56:30 <cpressey> I believe I will retreat to either 0 * 1/0 = 0, or 0 * 1/0 = 0/0 (which is also "poorly defined")
14:57:04 <myname> it could also be 0 * 1 * 0^(-1) = 0 * 0^(-1) * 1 = 1, no?
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14:58:38 <cpressey> I have definitely not defined ^ yet
14:58:51 <cpressey> And what is it with all this so-called "algebra"
14:59:16 <oerjan> 0 * 1/0 = 0/0 holds in wheel theory, anyway.
15:00:02 <coppro> Melvar: yeah
15:00:11 <coppro> Melvar: but how configurable and nice are they?
15:00:15 <coppro> can I get rid of all the window decoration?
15:03:52 <cpressey> if wheel theory can make the guts of this madness consistent, i'm all for it
15:04:03 <lifthrasiir> https://github.com/aheui/aheui.aheui
15:04:26 <cpressey> awesome
15:04:32 <cpressey> https://github.com/aheui/aheui.aheui/blob/master/aheui.aheui
15:04:41 <cpressey> possibly even more awesome if you can read hangul
15:04:48 <cpressey> because then it sounds like something instead of just looks like something
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15:07:54 <lifthrasiir> cpressey, even to native speakers, this is *really* weird sounded. :)
15:08:06 <cpressey> :)
15:11:14 <Melvar> coppro: I am rid of the window decoration by dint of using xmonad, don’t know how one would remove it if something chooses to draw it in the first place; the menu bar is hideable. In general, probably less configurable than konsole, just by a rule of thumb.
15:11:23 <mroman> Hm.
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15:19:05 <cpressey> yeah, no, yeah, wheel theory isn't going to help this
15:23:13 <cpressey> oh great, now i'm listening to bjork singing about lucky nights "when 1 + 1 = 3." this isn't helping
15:25:01 <cpressey> i don't see why my multiplication *has* to be commutative
15:25:25 <cpressey> it's just more useful that way
15:25:56 <int-e> matrix multiplication is not commutative and still useful
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15:29:26 <myname> does anybody know if there was anything about two-dimensional languages of interest in "real science" besides PLAN2D?
15:30:23 <int-e> do 2D cellular automata qualify?
15:30:48 <cpressey> whoa. i had not heard of PLAN2D.
15:31:05 <cpressey> 1974.
15:31:31 <cpressey> 2d ca's should totally qualify if you are talking about computation, maybe not so much if you are talking about programming
15:31:47 <myname> i am talking about programming
15:31:54 <cpressey> flowcharts
15:31:55 <myname> i know there are a bunch of formal languages
15:32:31 <cpressey> myname: flowcharts, seriously
15:33:05 <myname> cpressey: well, yeah, but you don't compile flowcharts
15:33:49 <cpressey> myname: you have to be specific about your constraints. 2-dimensional, programming, compiled...
15:34:09 <myname> that's it basically
15:35:05 <int-e> I wonder whether Plankalkül qualifies as a 2D language (it specifies functions as tables that can be nested)
15:35:17 <cpressey> int-e: i would say yes
15:35:34 <cpressey> "but you don't compile plankalkuel"
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15:37:06 <int-e> http://zuse-z1.zib.de/simulations/plankalkuel/compiler/plankalk.html ... uses a linearized input format :/
15:37:56 <int-e> Oh I had not found http://www.catb.org/retro/plankalkuel/ yet...
15:38:47 <cpressey> 2-dimensional, programming, compiled, ... and DOES NOT ADMIT A LINEARIZED INPUT FORMAT
15:38:51 <cpressey> check and mate
15:38:57 <int-e> cpressey: impossible
15:40:01 <int-e> oh well you must know that.
15:53:03 <cpressey> myname: will you accept "interpreted" as well as "compiled"?
15:53:16 <myname> cpressey: name it
15:53:23 <cpressey> spreadsheets
15:53:55 <myname> that is indeed an interesting approach
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16:58:12 <cpressey> http://www.philforhumanity.com/Zero_Times_Infinity.html "This is the definition of undefined."
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17:08:57 <cpressey> 0 * ⊥
17:10:24 <cpressey> if your turing machine is going to loop forever, it might as well do something useful while it's looping forever, for example, search for a proof that it loops forever
17:10:38 <coppro> +++
17:10:39 <edirc> ?
17:10:53 <cpressey> coppro: NO CARRIER
17:11:32 <coppro> +++ DIVIDE BY CUCUMBER ERROR +++
17:11:32 <edirc> ?
17:11:33 <int-e> +++ATH0
17:11:33 <edirc> ?
17:11:40 <coppro> +++ PLEASE REINSTALL UNIVERSE +++
17:11:40 <edirc> ?
17:11:57 <int-e> +,p
17:11:58 <edirc> heavier
17:12:08 <int-e> ominous
17:13:41 <int-e> +,d
17:13:50 <int-e> +!cal -m
17:13:50 <edirc> ?
17:14:06 <int-e> +r !cal -m
17:14:06 <edirc> ?
17:15:18 <int-e> +e /etc/passwd
17:15:19 <edirc> ?
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18:02:52 <Zefphex> Do you ever get that feeling when you see a car you're just like please hit me
18:03:32 <int-e> no
18:03:46 <Zefphex> Really
18:03:51 <Zefphex> Not once?
18:05:56 <Zefphex> So what you been doin' lately int-e
18:06:36 <int-e> I avoided being hit by cars, among other things.
18:08:13 <Zefphex> No but like never an internal feeling of like hit me car I dare you
18:08:16 <Zefphex> Just me ok
18:09:10 <Zefphex> I guess its a youngin' thing int-e is to old to wish to be hit directly with a speeding chunk of steel
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18:13:56 <Zefphex> ©_
18:14:55 <Zefphex> How do you calculate the infinite curvature of a tomatoe using polynumerals
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18:23:39 <Zefphex> x^2+4y+ 2(x^2+8xy^3)
18:23:42 <Zefphex> Found it
18:23:47 <Zefphex> Polynomials*
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18:28:01 <Zefphex> > x^2+4y+ 2(x^2+8xy^3)
18:28:03 <lambdabot> Ambiguous occurrence ‘y’
18:28:03 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘L.y’, defined at L.hs:143:1
18:28:03 <lambdabot> or ‘Debug.SimpleReflect.y’,
18:28:08 <Zefphex> Ah yes
18:28:19 <Zefphex> I forgot I cant code
18:29:06 <int-e> @type L.y
18:29:07 <lambdabot> Foo
18:29:17 <int-e> @undef
18:29:17 <lambdabot> Undefined.
18:29:34 <oren> does Java enforce capitals on type names
18:29:55 <oren> C++ doesn't
18:30:44 <Zefphex> I don't think so but I haven't been on a computer in 3 years to find out
18:30:54 <zzo38> I don't know how Java does, but in C and C++ the type names are just like any other name; in Haskell you can indicate that it is a type or constructor by capitalizing it.
18:32:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rottytooth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42243&oldid=41898 * Rottytooth * (+22) added Time Out
18:34:38 <oren> Ok... Apparently Java allows me to make classes with any "letters" including unicode
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18:35:52 <oren> So I can have separate classes named Αpple, Apple, apple, and Аpple
18:36:44 <Taneb> What is wrong with that?
18:37:02 <Taneb> Or surprising
18:38:35 <oren> It is surprising because in general languages tend to be ascii, except in strings and comments. It is bad, because there are many characters which are visually identical
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18:40:09 <Taneb> I am not sure about that first point
18:40:13 <Taneb> I know at least Haskell isn't
18:40:24 <int-e> with great power comes great responsibility
18:41:43 <shachaf> oerjan: not sure hth
18:42:31 <Taneb> Hmm, C seems to be ASCII
18:43:50 <zzo38> I do agree that only strings and comments should be allowed to use non-ASCII characters.
18:44:41 <oren> I was only aware of unicode names being allowed in Perl.
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18:47:06 <oren> another problem could be invisible names: https://www.snip2code.com/Snippet/54187/Unicode-special-space-characters-as-ruby
18:47:20 <oren> which apparently Ruby allows
18:48:56 <zzo38> If non-ASCII names are allowed, you will allow such things like that too, generally.
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18:50:51 <zzo38> Some formats are required to allow non-ASCII names. RDF Turtle does, although my implementation simply allows all bytes 128-255 and all escape codes wherever any escape code or non-ASCII character is allowed. This is one way to do such an implementation without confusion, but still I would recommend, don't use non-ASCII characters outside of string literals and comments.
19:02:05 <Zefphex> >ㄲ
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19:41:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42244 * Rottytooth * (+2646) adding new language
19:42:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42245&oldid=42244 * Rottytooth * (-3) /* Language Overview */ formatting, adding how programs end
19:44:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42246&oldid=42245 * Rottytooth * (+25) /* External resources */
19:45:02 <fizzie> Just so you know, there'll be a planned fungot outage soonishly.
19:45:02 <fungot> fizzie: ( which is added to make it recursive... so that it could be
19:45:16 <fizzie> fungot: No, not a recursive outage. How would that even work?
19:45:16 <fungot> fizzie: a real schemer when i use fnord for underlambda, .ul for underload
19:45:53 <cpressey> Warning! Recursive outage ahead!
19:46:38 * cpressey does not know how that would even work, but finds it immensely entertaining to consider
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19:54:53 <oren> Wouldn't a recursive outagebe one where an outage of one server causes another to fail, for multiple levels?
19:54:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42247&oldid=42246 * Rottytooth * (-1) /* Hello World */ helloworld was wrong
19:56:54 <Zefphex> bye
19:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Time Out]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42248 * Rottytooth * (+244) call for comments
19:57:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42249&oldid=42247 * Rottytooth * (+0) /* Language Overview */ fixed forth link
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20:03:16 <cpressey> oren: something like that; my first thought was an outage on one level causing an outage on "the underlying level", whatever that might mean exactly
20:03:28 <cpressey> a software outage causing a hardware outage causing a reality outage
20:03:39 <zzo38> cpressey: Do you like Magic: the Puzzling???
20:03:54 <cpressey> zzo38: I have never tried Magic: The Puzzling
20:04:22 <zzo38> I have the book, but I also wrote some by myself too.
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20:10:50 <zzo38> Maybe you should try, too
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20:48:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42250&oldid=42249 * Rottytooth * (+197) /* Hello World */
20:49:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42251&oldid=42250 * Rottytooth * (+27) /* Hello World */
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20:55:33 <zzo38> Do you know anything about algorithm for optimizing the frequent words table of a Z-machine file?
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21:00:38 <zzo38> It seems complicated to me, because of possibility of overlapping, as well as the possibility that they will change the optimal shift sequence of other strings.
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21:14:02 <zzo38> However, maybe a good approximation is easier.
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21:27:47 <fizzie> Whoops.
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21:54:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42252&oldid=42251 * Rottytooth * (-81) /* Concept */
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23:43:06 <coppro> http://docs.idris-lang.org/en/latest/effects/introduction.html I approve of the footnote
23:48:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42253&oldid=41715 * * (+1) /* if (x) { code1 } else { code2 } */ fix Daniel Marschall's solution. It would never end.
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