←2015-05-04 2015-05-05 2015-05-06→ ↑2015 ↑all
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00:07:21 <Sgeo> `slist Tavros
00:07:22 <HackEgo> slist Tavros: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:27:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IanO]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42788&oldid=25203 * IanO * (+127) I <3 Forth!
00:29:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HeartForth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42789&oldid=41911 * IanO * (+19) I <3 Forth! (correct year, categorize)
00:33:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HeartForth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42790&oldid=42789 * IanO * (+48)
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00:40:41 <oerjan> elliott!
00:40:53 <elliott> yes
00:41:10 <elliott> ostensibly, anyway
00:41:40 <oerjan> in reality it's evilott, elliott's evil twin
00:41:50 <elliott> precisely
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02:35:51 <oren> my knowledge of trees is inadequate
02:36:14 <oren> is a cedar edible?
02:38:39 <ais523> I wouldn't recommend trying to eat most parts of most trees
02:39:59 <shachaf> presumably you know a lot about pine trees hth
02:40:47 <oren> shachaf:Well I know they aren't edible
02:42:12 <oren> Actually, are they? I mean it would be *hard* to eat a pinecone, but I dunno if it would hurt you...
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02:42:46 <oren> maybe you can make like, pinecone soup
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02:47:35 <shachaf> aren't pine nuts more straightforward
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03:34:23 <oren> Giant Otters look like trees running around the map
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08:38:03 <izabera> i just watched dbza and realized that it's not finished yet
08:38:09 <izabera> how could they do this to me
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09:59:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Vriskanon]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42791&oldid=42655 * Vriskanon * (+16) /* Original Languages */ Added CalScript
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10:19:44 <Jafet> Meanwhile... "there is no evidence neither that the emblem of the Red Cross was not formed by reversing the colours of the Swiss flag."
10:21:03 <mroman> I'm actually not surprised at all about this "Social Experiment - Child Abduction"
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10:29:37 <b_jonas> fungot, are you surprised about this "Social Experiment - Child Abduction"?
10:29:38 <fungot> b_jonas: robot, fnord) dogface rather than dogface_ pings the wrong client.
10:31:09 <nvd> Sgeo, I think the only people on slist and this channel are me and you, and I'm using a different nick
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11:01:50 <FireFly> Which one is that, anyway?
11:02:14 <FireFly> `` head -n 1 bin/slist
11:02:14 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
11:02:24 <FireFly> `? slist
11:02:24 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
11:02:27 <FireFly> ah
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11:03:08 <FireFly> Oh it's a Taneb.. I didn't recognise the nick
11:08:53 <nvd> FireFly, yeah, I switched to it recently
11:09:12 <b_jonas> fungot, are you fungal?
11:09:12 <fungot> b_jonas: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/ node/ 29/ fnord, how come uncommenting the two lines with ellipses in the following september
11:09:57 <elliott> nvd: are you like rms or like esr
11:11:55 <nvd> I'd hope I'm more like nvd
11:12:22 <nvd> Especially as the v is part of my surname and not a middle initial
11:12:24 <callforjudgement> well, it didn't take me long to expand the initials
11:12:34 <callforjudgement> with esr it's harder because I don't know what the s stands for
11:12:41 <callforjudgement> ditto with rms and the m
11:12:57 <callforjudgement> I suppose the titlecase version is NvD?
11:13:51 <FireFly> I considered doing the initials thing at one point, but 'jcwh' doesn't really look that good to me
11:14:30 <nvd> callforjudgement, yeah
11:15:27 <FireFly> I think part of why I didn't connect nvd immediately is the switch from titlecase to lowercase. For some reason people tend to stick to one or the other
11:16:34 <elliott> callforjudgement: in esr the s stands for S.
11:17:03 <nvd> elliott, like Ulysses S Grant?
11:17:13 <elliott> no, more like eric s. raymond
11:19:16 <boily> FireFly: FirelloFly. jcwh?
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11:19:48 <boily> mine are only 'ab'. no middle names, not even the spectre of a letter.
11:19:48 <FireFly> Yeah, that would be my initials in lowercase
11:19:55 <FireFly> (two middle names)
11:21:18 <elliott> is your surname actually boily
11:21:27 <boily> it is.
11:21:38 <FireFly> Huh
11:21:39 <elliott> what if other family members want to use irc
11:21:44 <elliott> what nick do they use
11:22:12 <nvd> boily2
11:22:23 <FireFly> What if other elliotts want to use irc?
11:22:33 <boily> it's easy, elliott is unique.
11:22:40 <callforjudgement> my initials are a5
11:22:41 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
11:22:50 <FireFly> Oh, one of them singletons
11:23:14 <elliott> FireFly: then I will quit IRC for them
11:23:25 <elliott> (not true)
11:23:34 <elliott> I have a long-standing rivalry with at least one other person who wants this nick.
11:24:44 <b_jonas> hehe
11:25:23 <b_jonas> I chose b_jonas because nobody else wants it. Some people use jonas (and I still own that nick in a few places), but these days I start with b_jonas or variations of it rightaway.
11:26:06 <FireFly> See, if I'd use my first name as my nick I'd have to fight with b_jonas
11:26:40 <int-e> right... nicks should be obscure :)
11:26:48 <ais523> elliott: also with various misspellings, right?
11:27:16 <int-e> :t (.*)
11:27:17 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘.*’
11:27:18 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
11:27:18 <lambdabot> ‘.’ (imported from Data.Function),
11:27:20 <int-e> :t (.:)
11:27:21 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘.:’
11:27:21 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
11:27:21 <lambdabot> ‘.’ (imported from Data.Function),
11:27:27 <FireFly> int-e: I realised that after I had decided upon a nick.. this one tends to be taken unfortunately
11:27:41 <elliott> ais523: hmm?
11:27:45 <FireFly> I got lucky with Freenode
11:27:54 <ais523> I seem to remember there was an elliot or an eliot or something
11:29:15 <ais523> possibly both!
11:29:20 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, there's an elliot on freenode
11:29:43 <ais523> I seem to remember this channel frequently misspelled it back years ago
11:29:46 <ais523> but we're all used to it by now
11:30:04 <int-e> FireFly: I guess "Serenity" would've been about as popular...
11:30:05 <elliott> I used to get annoyed at people misspelling my name but now I am old and wise.
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11:30:54 <ais523> I find the person who most commonly misspells my name is me (normally as ais532)
11:31:04 <ais523> because I have to type it in, but everyone else can tab-complete
11:31:14 <elliott> you can probably tab complete it to
11:31:18 <elliott> *too
11:31:26 <ais523> not when I'm doing /nick or the like
11:31:44 <ais523> same reason you can't tab-complete a mkdir or the target of a mv
11:31:47 <ais523> (both of which annoy me)
11:32:11 <FireFly> sh(1) needs more DWIM
11:32:21 <ais523> I'm a bit more disappointed that you can't tab-complete random hard-to-spell English words, which at least needs less mind-reading skills
11:32:37 <ais523> FireFly: sh(1) is mostly intended for batch use, I think
11:33:01 <elliott> ais523: some clients do that
11:33:06 <ais523> there are shells like bash(1) and zsh(1) for interactive use
11:33:08 <elliott> some operating systems do that, even
11:33:13 <FireFly> Well, okay, fair
11:33:16 <ais523> tab-complete hard-to-spell words?
11:33:16 <elliott> OS X does it with ctrl-esc
11:33:29 <elliott> er, opt-esc
11:33:35 <elliott> ais523: yes
11:33:39 <elliott> also easy-to-spell ones
11:33:49 <ais523> the easy-to-spell ones often have more options, though
11:33:50 <elliott> also it's not tab
11:34:13 <ais523> I guess it doesn't /have/ to be tab
11:34:23 <ais523> tab's just convenient and traditional
11:34:43 <elliott> opt-esc is neither
11:34:49 <elliott> which is part of the reason why I never use that feature
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11:36:00 <ais523> where's opt on a mac keyboard anyway?
11:36:10 <elliott> fn ctrl opt cmd
11:36:11 <ais523> I actually don't know the mac key X Bindings
11:36:11 <elliott> it's alt.
11:36:14 <ais523> aha
11:36:19 <elliott> well
11:36:21 <ais523> opt = alt, ctrl = ctrl, cmd = super?
11:36:21 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, I misspell my name because I always try to type it _fast_
11:36:22 <elliott> actually it's windows
11:36:24 <elliott> cmd is where alt usually is
11:36:54 <elliott> command is the general shortcut key, opt is the random grab bag of character input/modifiers/etc. stuff that alt is
11:37:05 <elliott> ctrl is a modifier and used in terminals and some shortcuts
11:37:24 <elliott> cmd is in a nicer place for its function than where ctrl usually is on PC keyboards.
11:37:29 <ais523> I actually like the consistency of ctrl in OS X
11:37:39 <ais523> it gives you shellish-emacs bindings in everything
11:37:41 <elliott> and I like being able to do the normal "ctrl+c" stuff in a terminal without giving up actual ctrl
11:37:44 <elliott> yeah
11:37:54 <elliott> I use ^A/^E a bit
11:37:59 <elliott> sadly it doesn't have ^U
11:38:01 <ais523> last time I used a Mac, I gave up trying to figure out where home and end were
11:38:02 <elliott> which is what I use most often in irssi
11:38:12 <ais523> and just went full Emacs
11:38:18 <elliott> ais523: cmd+left/right is probably what you want
11:38:24 <elliott> or cmd+up/down
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11:38:30 <elliott> for line vs. document
11:38:32 <ais523> elliott: I did actually know that, I just suck at typing it
11:38:37 <elliott> right
11:38:41 <b_jonas> my name is among the words I mistype very often. other words are image (I type imgae) and any word with -io- or -oi- in it (I type the other)
11:39:01 <elliott> and pgup/pgdn are fn+left/right
11:39:07 <ais523> b_jonas: to be fair, your name only makes sense in Hungarian
11:39:10 <elliott> I like it.
11:39:21 <b_jonas> ais523: no, it doesn't make sense in Hungarian either
11:39:28 <ais523> fn hardly does anything on this laptop
11:39:29 <elliott> it beats the "awkwardly jam the extra keys in somewhere" laptop paradigm
11:40:17 <ais523> it gives me media keys, volume controls, brightness control (all of that is useful)
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11:40:33 <ais523> also Pause (which is sensible), and Insert (for some reason)
11:40:42 <FireFly> This laptop has home/end/pgup/pgdn on fn+directional keys as well
11:40:49 <ais523> it also took me a while to figure out where sysrq was
11:41:01 <ais523> turns out it's alt+prtsc, just like on a typical desktop keyboard
11:41:23 <FireFly> I don't think mine actually has either of those :\ at least it isn't printed on the keyboard
11:41:24 <ais523> hmm, probably I should upgrade Ubuntu, because they got rid of upstart in favour of systemd
11:41:35 <ais523> I originally didn't mind upstart
11:41:50 <ais523> but got furious when I tried to REISUB and found that upstart completely sabotages the intent of the E and the I
11:42:05 <b_jonas> huh?
11:42:08 <b_jonas> what's REISUB?
11:42:26 <b_jonas> oh, you mean sysrq codes?
11:42:33 <ais523> b_jonas: standard emergency reboot code on Linux, yep, sysrq-based
11:42:39 <b_jonas> what does R do?
11:42:42 <ais523> some people use different orders for the letters but that's the only one that makes sense to me
11:42:55 <ais523> R forcibly resets the terminal settings for the current VT to sane defaults
11:42:59 <b_jonas> I thought it was SESISUSO
11:43:01 <ais523> makes it possible to see what you're doing, sometimes
11:43:04 <elliott> tbf systemd may not be your thing if you dislike things that sabotage the intent of traditional methods
11:43:14 <ais523> systemd reminds me of NitroHack
11:43:24 <b_jonas> heheheh
11:43:33 <elliott> (this isn't intended as systemd flamebait.)
11:43:41 <b_jonas> (I heared people complain about systemd)
11:43:48 <elliott> :p
11:43:51 <elliott> I'm not really complaining.
11:44:00 <ais523> I'm willing to give it a chance
11:44:01 <ais523> or maybe them
11:44:08 <elliott> my opinion on systemd is roughly "please calm down, everyone"
11:44:12 <ais523> referring to systemd in the singular doesn't really make much sense given how many things it is
11:56:14 <nvd> I don't know much about systemd
11:57:04 <ais523> nvd: I suspect most people who have strong opinions about it don't
11:57:08 <oren> I know REISUB but I didn't know upstart doesn't do it right?
11:57:15 <ais523> oren: the problem is when you hit the E
11:57:32 <ais523> it terms all processes other than PID 1 (which is upstart in this case)
11:57:39 <ais523> then upstart busily tries to start them all again
11:57:45 <ais523> then the same thing happens again on the I
11:58:26 <oren> why does it try to start them????
11:58:53 <ais523> presumably it thinks that's its job
12:00:10 <elliott> well, it is
12:00:13 <oren> ethey need to at least add a key to stop respawning...
12:00:22 <elliott> the kernel isn't in charge of that.
12:00:49 <elliott> ais523: there's a reason the init system is involved in the shutdown proess
12:00:54 <elliott> it's precisely things like that
12:01:11 <ais523> elliott: I thought it was because it made sense to place the code for starting things and stopping things in the same place
12:01:35 <elliott> you need some kind of cooperation when you have a service manager
12:01:45 <elliott> even if it's just sending it a certain signal to tell it to stop respawning things
12:02:13 <ais523> well, there are a bunch of potential solutions
12:02:22 <ais523> e.g. PID 1 can be your zombie killer, and PID 2 can be your service respawner
12:02:29 <elliott> sure
12:02:51 <elliott> it should just send the signal to process 1 too or whatever :P
12:03:12 <b_jonas> ais523: I was thinking it should be two processes, but it's not the service respawner that I think should be split off. it's the runlevel changer.
12:03:29 <ais523> b_jonas: I'd agree, except that "runlevel" isn't a concept that most of the init replacements like supporting
12:03:46 <elliott> it's more like they support superset s of that concept I guess
12:04:04 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, so it would change whatever concept it supports then.
12:04:30 <elliott> "changing runlevel" is just telling your service manager that you want it to keep a different set of services up
12:04:33 <elliott> rather than the current one
12:04:52 <elliott> e.g., "keep gdm up, rather than gettys"
12:05:15 <elliott> so that is pretty much fundamentally tied to the thing managing and (re)spawning the services
12:06:07 <b_jonas> elliott: maybe, but there's also a set of scripts it needs to run when the runlevel is changed
12:06:26 <elliott> no there isn't
12:06:41 <elliott> (I'm following on from your reply to ais523)
12:07:15 <elliott> in systemd I guess you could have your graphical-desktop-thingy service depend on a one-shot service that runs some script and that would achieve the same thing. but again that'd be driven by the service manager.
12:07:23 <elliott> (this is not a systemd-specific thing, just an example.)
12:07:49 <elliott> "runlevel" is not really a terribly useful concept when you have more fine-grained service management.
12:08:00 <b_jonas> elliott: oh, so those scripts are "one-shot services"? ok
12:08:07 <elliott> sure
12:08:10 <oren> What does puppy linux use?
12:08:13 <elliott> well, a one-shot service is one that runs a script when you start it and then just sits there
12:08:29 <b_jonas> and of course, it can be more fine-grained than just runlevels
12:08:34 <elliott> you can implement that concept in a system that deosn't support it by having it run a "daemon" that just does something and then sits there forever, I guess
12:08:37 <elliott> not sure the semantics are totally identical
12:08:48 <elliott> I'm just saying that there is no distinct "runlevel/managed-services changer"
12:08:59 <elliott> since it's fundamentally just tellign the existing service manager to manage a different set of services
12:09:06 <elliott> which is also basically all you can tell a service manager to do
12:09:48 <elliott> (whether that's accomplished by modifying the filesystem and then sending the service manager a signal, or using some fancier IPC or whatever, doesn't matter much)
12:10:17 <b_jonas> elliott: ok
12:11:04 <elliott> (you can "shutdown" by, e.g. telling your service manager that the new set of services you want it to manage is {shutdown}, where shutdown is a service that just shuts down the computer when started.)
12:11:43 <elliott> (so it'll cleanly stop all the running services, shutting dependencies down after the services that depend on them, and then turn the computer off.)
12:11:57 <elliott> (for instance.)
12:12:12 <b_jonas> yep
12:12:28 <elliott> (of course you can also just tell it to manage the set {} and then do the shutdown yourself, assuming the process telling it to stop managing things arranges to survive past the mass shutdown.)
12:12:45 <elliott> (I think the traditional killall5/shutdown stuff does some tricks to handle that?)
12:13:25 <elliott> a reasonable behaviour for a service manager when told to kill is to cleanly shut down all the services it manages and then quit, so indeed ais523's two-PID solution works fine there
12:13:47 <elliott> I forget, what signals can't you send to pid 1?
12:13:50 <ais523> I believe systemd uses something similar to the two-PID solution, but don't know the details
12:14:00 <elliott> maybe you can send any of them but some of them will cause a kernel panic...
12:14:05 <ais523> I believe you can only signal PID 1 with a signal that it explicitly installed a signal handler for
12:14:09 <elliott> right
12:14:37 <ais523> yep, just checked the man page to confirm
12:14:40 <elliott> so basically I think that it's sysrq in the wrong here, and it should just include PID , and then if everything else is written how I'd write it, it'd work out fine :P
12:14:43 <elliott> *PID 1,
12:14:54 <ais523> hmm, is it legal to install a handler for sigkill, even though it wouldn't run?
12:15:18 <ais523> I think there might be problems with a system with no init
12:15:29 <ais523> although if there are no other processes either, maybe not?
12:15:45 <ais523> I wrote a minimal init impl for web of lies
12:15:58 <elliott> what as that in reply to? the line "I think there might be ..."
12:15:59 <elliott> *was
12:16:05 <ais523> yes
12:16:08 <elliott> I mean
12:16:11 <elliott> what was the line mentioned in reply to
12:16:37 <ais523> oh, that was in reply to killing all the processes including PID 1
12:16:54 <ais523> (Linux actually has a PID 0 too, or at least used to, but that's an implementation detail)
12:17:45 <elliott> okay yeah I guess the problem is that it'd exit
12:17:56 <elliott> tbh, my objection to the two-pid sysem is just that it makes pstree uglier.
12:18:31 <ais523> you have two separate trees, one for processes that started indirectly as a result of the boot process
12:18:37 <ais523> the other being processes that started for other reasons
12:18:46 <ais523> and with systemd technology, that might not be an empty set
12:19:23 <elliott> I do not believe systemd uses two pids.
12:19:33 <elliott> everyone gets upset at systemd putting so much stuff in PID 1 :P
12:20:55 <ais523> elliott: from what I've seen that's misinformed, in that it puts most of that stuff in other single-digit PIDs instead
12:20:57 <ais523> or, well
12:21:06 <ais523> this sort of flamewar is basically never well-informed :-(
12:21:11 <elliott> I don't remember my pstree always being two-deep when I ran systemd.
12:21:22 <elliott> yes there are auxiliary systemd-* things that run too though
12:21:28 <elliott> anyway I could be wrong
12:21:38 <elliott> but that's my recollection
12:21:47 <ais523> perhaps PID 1 does the process-starting
12:21:52 <ais523> but other PIDs do other things
12:21:58 <elliott> sure
12:22:03 <elliott> but that doesn't help for your REISUB scenario
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12:22:20 <ais523> indeed :-(
12:22:52 <elliott> I would expect more flamewars if REISUB didn't work with systemd, but then... it not working with upstart sort of surprises me because ubuntu is kinda popular so I'd have expected to see complaints
12:24:03 <oren> Um... I appear to have both upstart and systemd.
12:24:18 <ais523> ditto according to man pages
12:24:22 <ais523> but they can't both be init
12:24:36 <elliott> ubuntu has pulled in some parts of systemd for a long while now I think
12:24:44 <elliott> because stuff depends on those parts
12:24:58 <elliott> or, well, I guess they used a fork of logind?
12:25:05 <elliott> I'm not sure what it'd be installed for.
12:25:09 <elliott> wait, oren, don't you use arch?
12:25:14 <elliott> upstart on arch is very weird
12:25:52 <oren> I'm using an xubuntu system with a ton of stuff I don't need removed
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12:26:07 <elliott> ah, that must be why your system is so reliable
12:26:15 <oren> lol
12:27:01 <oren> the software is pretty reliable... the problem is that my hardware is total crap
12:28:10 <oren> but yeah for example I removed everything to do with compositing, and k-anything, and most of the g-things
12:28:39 <elliott> compositing is about more than wibbly shadow effects, y'know
12:30:34 <oren> yeah it also allows transpoarent terminals. but that is done on my client anyway
12:31:27 <oren> My monitor stopped working, so I'm using a 1GB machine as a client to talk to it
12:31:33 <elliott> it's more than that too
12:31:42 <elliott> compositing has benefits entirely unrelated to eyecandy
12:32:27 <elliott> it tears/flickers less and should be just generally smoother/faster
12:33:59 <oren> i'll keep that in mind. I'm looking at a $800-1000 range for my new laptop
12:34:33 <oren> hopefully with that I can run DF and firefox and skype at the same time
12:35:23 <elliott> compositing is basically just "hardware-accelerated window management"
12:35:38 <elliott> it's just that that's also what lets you do the fancier stuff
12:36:03 <elliott> (though it will suck if you have really bad graphics drivers of course)
12:38:36 <oren> Now this is annoying. doesn't anyone sell laptops that weigh more than 30 grams anymore?!!
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12:40:21 <ais523> this one's almost certainly more than 30g
12:40:42 <ais523> I decided to get a powerful one rather than a lightweight one, although note that I have a pretty underwhelming definition of "powerful"
12:40:42 <oren> hmm looks like dells are still sturdy
12:40:54 <ais523> it was mostly just "I want another core", but I couldn't buy a laptop with less than four :-(
12:42:42 <b_jonas> oren: "hopefully with that I can run DF and firefox and skype at the same time" -- nah, that won't work. firefox (and webpages) and skype are both such things that are always slow, no matter fast your hardware is. people just add more resource-intensive stuff to them if they run fast enough.
12:42:54 <oren> It appears in order to get a sturdy laptop from best buy,you have to spend _less_
12:43:09 <b_jonas> what? 30 grams? that's riddiculously light
12:43:24 <oren> It was hyperbole
12:43:40 <oren> But I want some heft
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12:44:04 <ais523> DF is also always slow
12:44:37 <b_jonas> I don't play DF so I can't comment on that one.
12:44:44 <nvd> ais523, how many dwarfs do you have?
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12:48:24 <ais523> nvd: I don't play it
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13:08:27 <oren> I have 3 left after my latest scheme involving zompies went wrong
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13:32:35 <b_jonas> question. if a programming language has infix operators with precedence syntax similar to C (C and perl are examples), and you want to add infix min and max operators, what precedence should those operators have?
13:33:00 <b_jonas> oren: zombies? wasn't it were-elephants?
13:33:06 <b_jonas> or was that someone else?
13:33:15 <FireFly> Hmm, that is a good question
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13:33:55 <elliott> I feel like a + b min c should be a + (b min c), but have no particular justification for that.
13:33:59 <mroman> b_jonas: probably just above >,< and >=, <=?
13:34:52 <FireFly> elliott: weird, I intuitively felt the opposite
13:35:02 <b_jonas> mroman: you mean so that you could use them as boolean logic? dunno, that would seem strange to me, though I can't definitely say it's wrong
13:35:15 <elliott> FireFly: it may be Haskell bias. or, wait, how does a + b `min` c actually parse?
13:35:17 <b_jonas> oh wait
13:35:26 <elliott> min is and, max is or
13:35:27 <b_jonas> you mean _above_ comparisons
13:35:28 <b_jonas> um
13:35:29 <b_jonas> sorry
13:35:35 <mroman> yeah
13:35:39 <elliott> so clearly use && and || as the operators
13:35:46 <elliott> 2 && 7 = 2
13:35:46 <mroman> oh wait
13:35:49 <elliott> 2 || 7 = 7
13:35:58 <b_jonas> mroman: so below the shifts? yes, that might make sense
13:36:23 <FireFly> elliott: I.. kinda like that
13:36:45 <b_jonas> I was thinking higher precedence perhaps between multiplication and addition, or even above multiplication, I dunno
13:36:47 <mroman> 5 + 5 min 3 * 3 < 5 max 6 should parse as ((5+5) min (3*3)) < (5 max 6)
13:36:48 <elliott> FireFly: me too. I like it about as much as I hate it
13:36:53 <mroman> but I have no particular justification for that.
13:37:10 <b_jonas> elliott: that wouldn't work, 2 && 7 already has two meanings, we can't add a third
13:37:17 <b_jonas> (one in C and one in perl)
13:37:19 <elliott> b_jonas: it just has to case on type!
13:37:23 <FireFly> Having min/max in-between the arithmetic operators would feel very weird to me
13:37:43 <FireFly> What is the perl semantics for (&&)?
13:37:45 <mroman> min/max for booleans would be fun too
13:37:49 <b_jonas> elliott: yes, but it already has a defined meaning for two ints
13:37:57 <mroman> min is just and and max is just or
13:38:09 <b_jonas> FireFly: in perl, (2 && 7) results in 7
13:38:18 <b_jonas> FireFly: in C, it results in 1
13:38:41 <mroman> what?
13:38:50 <mroman> oh wait
13:38:53 <mroman> 7 is true in perl
13:38:53 <FireFly> Oh, so the same semantics as in JS I guess
13:39:01 <FireFly> Well, truthy
13:39:12 <mroman> hm
13:39:16 <mroman> I suspect python might return 7 too
13:39:27 <mroman> yeah
13:39:38 <elliott> actually python returns SyntaxError: invalid syntax
13:39:43 <mroman> use "and"
13:39:55 <mroman> && is "and" in Python
13:40:08 <FireFly> In JavaScript || is relatively often (in)famously used to fall back on null to a default value
13:40:43 <mroman> Perl or die.
13:46:47 <FireFly> Interesting, I didn't know there's a conference on Go: http://pasky.or.cz/iggsc2015/cfp.html
13:48:06 <b_jonas> (I'm also not sure what spelling those operators could use in C and C++)
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13:51:38 <FireFly> I can't think of any reasonable ASCIIfication of the usual min/max syntax
13:51:44 <FireFly> er wait
13:51:46 <FireFly> disregard that
13:52:49 <b_jonas> FireFly: /\ and \/ are the usual asciifications
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13:53:40 <b_jonas> /\ is a bit dangerous because it can conflict with existing syntax
13:54:09 <Jafet> `multicode maxim
13:54:12 <HackEgo> U+1D1B6 MUSICAL SYMBOL MAXIMA \ UTF-8: f0 9d 86 b6 UTF-16BE: d834ddb6 Decimal: &#119222; \ 𝆶 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
13:54:15 <FireFly> In C? Or in C-derived languages in general?
13:54:20 <Jafet> `multicode minim
13:54:21 <HackEgo> U+1D1BB MUSICAL SYMBOL MINIMA \ UTF-8: f0 9d 86 bb UTF-16BE: d834ddbb Decimal: &#119227; \ 𝆹𝅥 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 1D1B9 1D165 \ \ U+1D1BC MUSICAL SYMBOL MINIMA BLACK \ UTF-8: f0 9d 86 bc UTF-16BE: d834ddbc Decimal: &#119228; \ 𝆺𝅥 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
13:54:31 <Jafet> `multicode minimu
13:54:32 <HackEgo> No output.
13:54:42 <b_jonas> FireFly: in C and C++ specifically
13:55:20 <b_jonas> \/ is safe but only because the backslash character is barely used for anything
13:55:38 <FireFly> What /is/ it used for, outside of string literals?
13:55:55 <b_jonas> it's quite hard to invent a reasonable digraph for C and C++ that doesn't conflict with _some_ existing syntax actually
13:56:16 <b_jonas> FireFly: line joining, and these days as an escape for extended identifiers too
13:56:35 <FireFly> Oh, I guess /*"*/\x20" would be anoter conflicting case
13:56:44 <FireFly> Wait hm, that's not right
13:57:14 <FireFly> another*
13:57:33 <b_jonas> (also can be part of include filenames, for crazy windows people)
13:57:40 <FireFly> @ isn't used a whole lot in C
13:58:05 <FireFly> Is it used in C++?
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13:58:32 <b_jonas> no, @ and ` are unused
13:58:41 <b_jonas> which is exactly why people are reluctant to give it meanings
13:58:58 <b_jonas> they're useful as escapes outside C or C++ because they're not used in C or C++
13:59:12 <FireFly> That makes sense
13:59:49 <b_jonas> something like ^| might work but it's a bit ugly
14:00:52 <mroman> just use >| and <| or something like that
14:01:14 <mroman> or ><, <>
14:01:21 <b_jonas> mroman: no, >| conflicts with C++ syntax
14:01:37 <mroman> why?
14:01:54 <b_jonas> the > can be the closing delimiter of the template parameters of a variable template
14:01:55 <FireFly> >< and <> would be annoying.. I'm not sure which would mean what, and <> is sometimes used to mean "different from"
14:01:59 <Jafet> <> is an empty template list
14:02:11 <b_jonas> >< also wouldn't work, for the same reason
14:02:18 <mroman> oh. I thought you said C
14:02:19 <b_jonas> <| might work... hmm
14:02:25 <FireFly> I like the idea of using < and > to allude to "less of" and "greater of"
14:02:27 <b_jonas> mroman: I would like one that works in both C and C++
14:02:46 <mroman> I refuse C++.
14:02:49 <b_jonas> but not necessarily in perl or ruby or javascript or java or c-sharp or all the other languages copying their syntax partially
14:02:52 <FireFly> I guess that's the idea behind J's <. >. as well
14:03:31 <FireFly> (in addition to APL using the floor/ceil operators for min/max, and thus J doing that too)
14:03:47 <b_jonas> hmm, would => and =< work?
14:05:13 <b_jonas> hmm no, I think those conflict too
14:08:10 <b_jonas> basically anything involving angle brackets can conflict with template syntax
14:08:54 <b_jonas> oh, let's use (| and (, that would confuse everyone!
14:09:09 <b_jonas> or maybe (^ and (,
14:09:21 <b_jonas> (^ for the ceiling sign and (, for the floor sign
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14:11:16 <FireFly> Do ceiling and floor have any link to max and min?
14:13:49 <nvd> max(a, ceiling(a)) = ceiling(a)
14:15:21 <b_jonas> FireFly: yes, the link is that they have the same notation in traditional APL
14:15:33 <b_jonas> (the left floor and left ceil bracket respectively)
14:15:53 <FireFly> Yeah, but that doesn't really count
14:16:27 <b_jonas> then no
14:31:41 <oren> Why can't we use └ and ┌
14:34:16 <mroman> Because we might as well use APL then .
14:34:49 <mroman> which I'm sure sounds worse than it actually is.
14:34:50 <oren> except those chars are much more commonly supported than the apl symbols
14:35:10 <oren> they are the box drawing lines
14:35:36 <oren> supported by e.g. common terminal fonts
14:36:47 <mroman> Sorry. I already used the APL argument. I can't take that back now.
14:37:47 <oren> My objections to APL are unrelated to its weird symbols
14:38:39 <mroman> It's like Godwin's Law.
14:38:44 <mroman> Just for programming languages and with APL.
14:38:53 <mroman> At some point somebody will mention APL.
14:39:02 <oren> The main problem is that the weird symbols are composed with overstrike
14:40:38 <ais523> so INTERCAL isn't unique at that?
14:40:43 <mroman> `? APL
14:40:43 <HackEgo> APL? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:40:52 <oren> nope
14:42:55 <nortti> `learn APL stands for Algorithmic Language
14:42:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'apl': APL stands for Algorithmic Language
14:43:27 <mroman> :(
14:43:35 <mroman> that's wrong
14:43:43 <mroman> `learn APL stands for Algorithmic Programming Language.
14:43:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'apl': APL stands for Algorithmic Programming Language.
14:44:03 <nortti> `? ALGOL
14:44:04 <HackEgo> ALGOL? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:44:07 <nvd> Austrian Potato League
14:44:22 <nortti> `learn ALGOL stands for A Programming Language
14:44:24 <HackEgo> Learned 'algol': ALGOL stands for A Programming Language
14:46:11 <mroman> Algol 68 should have 68 reserved words
14:46:13 <mroman> not just 61
14:47:57 <mroman> There are too many damn programming languages
14:48:19 <mroman> and more research should be put into Language interoperability
14:48:56 <mroman> There should be some kind of standard way of doing that
14:49:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Theriel * New user account
14:55:21 <mroman> Frege
14:55:44 <mroman> That time could have been better spent by having a jvm bytecode backend for ghc
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15:50:56 <oren> Algol is like, every programming langugae
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17:03:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Clue (Keymaker)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42792&oldid=37836 * Theriel * (+2757) /* Probabilistic musings */
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17:45:31 <FireFly> mroman: isn't the standard way of doing language interopability called C?
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20:47:00 <nvd> Help, I am vaguely tempted to vote for a minor party in the election on Thursday
20:48:55 <oren> not like anyone's vote makes a difference
20:50:35 <nvd> oren, I'm actually three thousand two hundred and nineteen people
20:51:48 <FireFly> oh wow, that sounds like a severe split personality disorder case
20:51:51 <oren> Oh, well in that case...
20:52:06 <coppro> nvd: http://www.threehundredeight.com/p/alberta.html
20:52:39 <nvd> coppro, I am not sure how that is relevant, I am in York
20:52:55 <coppro> nvd: you can watch this trainwreck election and forget about yours for a while!
20:53:24 <nvd> Well, I found out this evening that I'm actually in a different constituency to the one I thought I was in
20:54:14 <FireFly> They should rename York to Old York
20:55:20 <oren> Yeah. Especially what with North York and Yorkdale confusing matters
20:55:34 <nvd> FireFly, we're making a new Haskell compiler because YHC sort of stopped
20:55:43 <nvd> We're calling it the New York Haskell Compiler
20:55:56 <FireFly> Excellent
20:56:00 <oren> (both are in toronto, previously known as York)
20:57:10 <oren> My vote in particular is worthless because they put me in a gigantic riding
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21:53:18 <oren> pkill -9 firefox
21:53:22 <oren> SH*IT
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22:00:24 <ornn> would nicing firefox make it so that other programs (like my window manager) get higher access to memory as well as cpu?
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22:02:43 <ornn> Hmmm. I guess whichever process has more time on cpu can put out more page faults to increase its resident set
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22:56:42 <boily> @metar CYUL
22:56:42 <lambdabot> CYUL 052200Z 25014G23KT 30SM FEW065 BKN210 20/M03 A3018 RMK CU1CI6 CU TR SLP220 DENSITY ALT 400FT
22:56:46 <boily> @metar ENVA
22:56:46 <lambdabot> ENVA 052250Z 06008KT 030V090 9999 -DZ FEW040 BKN090 10/06 Q0997 RMK WIND 670FT 13012G23KT
22:57:00 <boily> darn. the difference is diminishing.
22:58:00 <oerjan> we actually had a heat wave today. don't worry, it's supposed to pass.
22:58:36 <shachaf> what's the best @metar for berkeley, ca twh
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23:01:08 <boily> shachaf: wunderground recommends KOAK.
23:01:11 <boily> @metar KOAK
23:01:11 <lambdabot> KOAK 052253Z 26012KT 10SM FEW017 SCT200 16/08 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP136 T01610078
23:01:34 <shachaf> @metar KSJC
23:01:34 <lambdabot> KSJC 052253Z 32014KT 10SM FEW018 SCT200 19/08 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP128 T01890078
23:01:44 <shachaf> i've moved to the cold climates of the north
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23:02:14 <shachaf> oerjan: everyone knows writing software is the path to maximal fame hth
23:02:51 <oerjan> i may not be maximizing that function hth
23:03:21 <oerjan> berkeley berkeley KOAK KOAK
23:03:56 <FireFly> oerjan: over here it was all foggy during the day
23:03:58 * boily is tempted to mapole some sanity into oerjan, but rescinds
23:04:10 <FireFly> and not particularily warm, I think
23:08:30 <oerjan> boily: do you have a scientific study to prove mapoling adjusts sanity in the correct direction twh
23:09:33 <shachaf> perhaps oerjan will require a hungusprod hth
23:09:44 <oerjan> wat
23:10:01 <shachaf> http://lparchive.org/Zork-Grand-Inquisitor/Update%2017/
23:10:09 <shachaf> sigh, it's not the same
23:10:37 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FiRhbWP7To#t=6m57s
23:10:39 <shachaf> hth
23:12:00 <boily> oerjan: empirical evidence supports mapoling hth
23:13:57 <FireFly> oerjan: do /you/ have any evidence supporting swatting?
23:15:16 <oerjan> i am not making claims of health benefits from swatting
23:15:34 <FireFly> Fair point
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23:57:05 <olsner> doesn't all evidence (or lack thereof) always support swatting?
23:57:51 <olsner> I also think mapoling is isomorphic to swatting
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