00:07:19 -!- spatterworthy has joined. 00:07:21 `slist Tavros 00:07:22 slist Tavros: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 00:27:59 [wiki] [[User:IanO]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42788&oldid=25203 * IanO * (+127) I <3 Forth! 00:29:33 [wiki] [[HeartForth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42789&oldid=41911 * IanO * (+19) I <3 Forth! (correct year, categorize) 00:33:22 [wiki] [[HeartForth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42790&oldid=42789 * IanO * (+48) 00:40:14 -!- elliott has joined. 00:40:41 elliott! 00:40:53 yes 00:41:10 ostensibly, anyway 00:41:40 in reality it's evilott, elliott's evil twin 00:41:50 precisely 00:55:27 -!- GeekDude has joined. 00:56:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Appointment tomorrow. You know, the drill.). 01:11:13 -!- scoofy has joined. 01:13:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:23:54 -!- spatterworthy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:37:12 -!- bb010g has joined. 02:35:51 my knowledge of trees is inadequate 02:36:14 is a cedar edible? 02:38:39 I wouldn't recommend trying to eat most parts of most trees 02:39:59 presumably you know a lot about pine trees hth 02:40:47 shachaf:Well I know they aren't edible 02:42:12 Actually, are they? I mean it would be *hard* to eat a pinecone, but I dunno if it would hurt you... 02:42:14 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 02:42:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 02:42:33 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 02:42:46 maybe you can make like, pinecone soup 02:47:21 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:47:35 aren't pine nuts more straightforward 02:56:56 -!- Froox has joined. 03:00:17 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:02:05 -!- rodgort has joined. 03:34:23 Giant Otters look like trees running around the map 04:34:28 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:43:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:43:49 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 04:48:25 -!- password2 has joined. 05:19:25 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 05:35:32 -!- password2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:48:02 -!- Froox has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 06:20:46 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 06:40:33 -!- AndoDaan_ has joined. 06:43:50 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:47:36 -!- AndoDaan_ has changed nick to AndoDaan. 06:58:04 -!- zadock has joined. 07:20:17 -!- Soni has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:21:22 -!- Soni has joined. 07:23:31 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:51:25 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 07:51:33 -!- ais523 has quit. 07:51:47 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 08:27:56 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 08:28:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 08:28:28 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 08:38:03 i just watched dbza and realized that it's not finished yet 08:38:09 how could they do this to me 08:45:11 -!- Patashu has joined. 09:10:16 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:51:57 -!- rodgort has joined. 09:59:28 [wiki] [[User:Vriskanon]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42791&oldid=42655 * Vriskanon * (+16) /* Original Languages */ Added CalScript 10:03:04 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:11:19 -!- rodgort has joined. 10:19:44 Meanwhile... "there is no evidence neither that the emblem of the Red Cross was not formed by reversing the colours of the Swiss flag." 10:21:03 I'm actually not surprised at all about this "Social Experiment - Child Abduction" 10:22:46 -!- boily has joined. 10:29:37 fungot, are you surprised about this "Social Experiment - Child Abduction"? 10:29:38 b_jonas: robot, fnord) dogface rather than dogface_ pings the wrong client. 10:31:09 Sgeo, I think the only people on slist and this channel are me and you, and I'm using a different nick 10:38:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:38:36 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 10:52:41 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:01:50 Which one is that, anyway? 11:02:14 `` head -n 1 bin/slist 11:02:14 echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit 11:02:24 `? slist 11:02:24 Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck. 11:02:27 ah 11:02:35 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:03:08 Oh it's a Taneb.. I didn't recognise the nick 11:08:53 FireFly, yeah, I switched to it recently 11:09:12 fungot, are you fungal? 11:09:12 b_jonas: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/ node/ 29/ fnord, how come uncommenting the two lines with ellipses in the following september 11:09:57 nvd: are you like rms or like esr 11:11:55 I'd hope I'm more like nvd 11:12:22 Especially as the v is part of my surname and not a middle initial 11:12:24 well, it didn't take me long to expand the initials 11:12:34 with esr it's harder because I don't know what the s stands for 11:12:41 ditto with rms and the m 11:12:57 I suppose the titlecase version is NvD? 11:13:51 I considered doing the initials thing at one point, but 'jcwh' doesn't really look that good to me 11:14:30 callforjudgement, yeah 11:15:27 I think part of why I didn't connect nvd immediately is the switch from titlecase to lowercase. For some reason people tend to stick to one or the other 11:16:34 callforjudgement: in esr the s stands for S. 11:17:03 elliott, like Ulysses S Grant? 11:17:13 no, more like eric s. raymond 11:19:16 FireFly: FirelloFly. jcwh? 11:19:43 -!- rodgort has joined. 11:19:48 mine are only 'ab'. no middle names, not even the spectre of a letter. 11:19:48 Yeah, that would be my initials in lowercase 11:19:55 (two middle names) 11:21:18 is your surname actually boily 11:21:27 it is. 11:21:38 Huh 11:21:39 what if other family members want to use irc 11:21:44 what nick do they use 11:22:12 boily2 11:22:23 What if other elliotts want to use irc? 11:22:33 it's easy, elliott is unique. 11:22:40 my initials are a5 11:22:41 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 11:22:50 Oh, one of them singletons 11:23:14 FireFly: then I will quit IRC for them 11:23:25 (not true) 11:23:34 I have a long-standing rivalry with at least one other person who wants this nick. 11:24:44 hehe 11:25:23 I chose b_jonas because nobody else wants it. Some people use jonas (and I still own that nick in a few places), but these days I start with b_jonas or variations of it rightaway. 11:26:06 See, if I'd use my first name as my nick I'd have to fight with b_jonas 11:26:40 right... nicks should be obscure :) 11:26:48 elliott: also with various misspellings, right? 11:27:16 :t (.*) 11:27:17 Not in scope: ‘.*’ 11:27:18 Perhaps you meant one of these: 11:27:18 ‘.’ (imported from Data.Function), 11:27:20 :t (.:) 11:27:21 Not in scope: ‘.:’ 11:27:21 Perhaps you meant one of these: 11:27:21 ‘.’ (imported from Data.Function), 11:27:27 int-e: I realised that after I had decided upon a nick.. this one tends to be taken unfortunately 11:27:41 ais523: hmm? 11:27:45 I got lucky with Freenode 11:27:54 I seem to remember there was an elliot or an eliot or something 11:29:15 possibly both! 11:29:20 ais523: yes, there's an elliot on freenode 11:29:43 I seem to remember this channel frequently misspelled it back years ago 11:29:46 but we're all used to it by now 11:30:04 FireFly: I guess "Serenity" would've been about as popular... 11:30:05 I used to get annoyed at people misspelling my name but now I am old and wise. 11:30:12 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SAGITTAL CHICKEN). 11:30:54 I find the person who most commonly misspells my name is me (normally as ais532) 11:31:04 because I have to type it in, but everyone else can tab-complete 11:31:14 you can probably tab complete it to 11:31:18 *too 11:31:26 not when I'm doing /nick or the like 11:31:44 same reason you can't tab-complete a mkdir or the target of a mv 11:31:47 (both of which annoy me) 11:32:11 sh(1) needs more DWIM 11:32:21 I'm a bit more disappointed that you can't tab-complete random hard-to-spell English words, which at least needs less mind-reading skills 11:32:37 FireFly: sh(1) is mostly intended for batch use, I think 11:33:01 ais523: some clients do that 11:33:06 there are shells like bash(1) and zsh(1) for interactive use 11:33:08 some operating systems do that, even 11:33:13 Well, okay, fair 11:33:16 tab-complete hard-to-spell words? 11:33:16 OS X does it with ctrl-esc 11:33:29 er, opt-esc 11:33:35 ais523: yes 11:33:39 also easy-to-spell ones 11:33:49 the easy-to-spell ones often have more options, though 11:33:50 also it's not tab 11:34:13 I guess it doesn't /have/ to be tab 11:34:23 tab's just convenient and traditional 11:34:43 opt-esc is neither 11:34:49 which is part of the reason why I never use that feature 11:35:52 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:36:00 where's opt on a mac keyboard anyway? 11:36:10 fn ctrl opt cmd 11:36:11 I actually don't know the mac key X Bindings 11:36:11 it's alt. 11:36:14 aha 11:36:19 well 11:36:21 opt = alt, ctrl = ctrl, cmd = super? 11:36:21 ais523: sure, I misspell my name because I always try to type it _fast_ 11:36:22 actually it's windows 11:36:24 cmd is where alt usually is 11:36:54 command is the general shortcut key, opt is the random grab bag of character input/modifiers/etc. stuff that alt is 11:37:05 ctrl is a modifier and used in terminals and some shortcuts 11:37:24 cmd is in a nicer place for its function than where ctrl usually is on PC keyboards. 11:37:29 I actually like the consistency of ctrl in OS X 11:37:39 it gives you shellish-emacs bindings in everything 11:37:41 and I like being able to do the normal "ctrl+c" stuff in a terminal without giving up actual ctrl 11:37:44 yeah 11:37:54 I use ^A/^E a bit 11:37:59 sadly it doesn't have ^U 11:38:01 last time I used a Mac, I gave up trying to figure out where home and end were 11:38:02 which is what I use most often in irssi 11:38:12 and just went full Emacs 11:38:18 ais523: cmd+left/right is probably what you want 11:38:24 or cmd+up/down 11:38:27 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 11:38:30 for line vs. document 11:38:32 elliott: I did actually know that, I just suck at typing it 11:38:37 right 11:38:41 my name is among the words I mistype very often. other words are image (I type imgae) and any word with -io- or -oi- in it (I type the other) 11:39:01 and pgup/pgdn are fn+left/right 11:39:07 b_jonas: to be fair, your name only makes sense in Hungarian 11:39:10 I like it. 11:39:21 ais523: no, it doesn't make sense in Hungarian either 11:39:28 fn hardly does anything on this laptop 11:39:29 it beats the "awkwardly jam the extra keys in somewhere" laptop paradigm 11:40:17 it gives me media keys, volume controls, brightness control (all of that is useful) 11:40:29 -!- rodgort has joined. 11:40:33 also Pause (which is sensible), and Insert (for some reason) 11:40:42 This laptop has home/end/pgup/pgdn on fn+directional keys as well 11:40:49 it also took me a while to figure out where sysrq was 11:41:01 turns out it's alt+prtsc, just like on a typical desktop keyboard 11:41:23 I don't think mine actually has either of those :\ at least it isn't printed on the keyboard 11:41:24 hmm, probably I should upgrade Ubuntu, because they got rid of upstart in favour of systemd 11:41:35 I originally didn't mind upstart 11:41:50 but got furious when I tried to REISUB and found that upstart completely sabotages the intent of the E and the I 11:42:05 huh? 11:42:08 what's REISUB? 11:42:26 oh, you mean sysrq codes? 11:42:33 b_jonas: standard emergency reboot code on Linux, yep, sysrq-based 11:42:39 what does R do? 11:42:42 some people use different orders for the letters but that's the only one that makes sense to me 11:42:55 R forcibly resets the terminal settings for the current VT to sane defaults 11:42:59 I thought it was SESISUSO 11:43:01 makes it possible to see what you're doing, sometimes 11:43:04 tbf systemd may not be your thing if you dislike things that sabotage the intent of traditional methods 11:43:14 systemd reminds me of NitroHack 11:43:24 heheheh 11:43:33 (this isn't intended as systemd flamebait.) 11:43:41 (I heared people complain about systemd) 11:43:48 :p 11:43:51 I'm not really complaining. 11:44:00 I'm willing to give it a chance 11:44:01 or maybe them 11:44:08 my opinion on systemd is roughly "please calm down, everyone" 11:44:12 referring to systemd in the singular doesn't really make much sense given how many things it is 11:56:14 I don't know much about systemd 11:57:04 nvd: I suspect most people who have strong opinions about it don't 11:57:08 I know REISUB but I didn't know upstart doesn't do it right? 11:57:15 oren: the problem is when you hit the E 11:57:32 it terms all processes other than PID 1 (which is upstart in this case) 11:57:39 then upstart busily tries to start them all again 11:57:45 then the same thing happens again on the I 11:58:26 why does it try to start them???? 11:58:53 presumably it thinks that's its job 12:00:10 well, it is 12:00:13 ethey need to at least add a key to stop respawning... 12:00:22 the kernel isn't in charge of that. 12:00:49 ais523: there's a reason the init system is involved in the shutdown proess 12:00:54 it's precisely things like that 12:01:11 elliott: I thought it was because it made sense to place the code for starting things and stopping things in the same place 12:01:35 you need some kind of cooperation when you have a service manager 12:01:45 even if it's just sending it a certain signal to tell it to stop respawning things 12:02:13 well, there are a bunch of potential solutions 12:02:22 e.g. PID 1 can be your zombie killer, and PID 2 can be your service respawner 12:02:29 sure 12:02:51 it should just send the signal to process 1 too or whatever :P 12:03:12 ais523: I was thinking it should be two processes, but it's not the service respawner that I think should be split off. it's the runlevel changer. 12:03:29 b_jonas: I'd agree, except that "runlevel" isn't a concept that most of the init replacements like supporting 12:03:46 it's more like they support superset s of that concept I guess 12:04:04 ais523: sure, so it would change whatever concept it supports then. 12:04:30 "changing runlevel" is just telling your service manager that you want it to keep a different set of services up 12:04:33 rather than the current one 12:04:52 e.g., "keep gdm up, rather than gettys" 12:05:15 so that is pretty much fundamentally tied to the thing managing and (re)spawning the services 12:06:07 elliott: maybe, but there's also a set of scripts it needs to run when the runlevel is changed 12:06:26 no there isn't 12:06:41 (I'm following on from your reply to ais523) 12:07:15 in systemd I guess you could have your graphical-desktop-thingy service depend on a one-shot service that runs some script and that would achieve the same thing. but again that'd be driven by the service manager. 12:07:23 (this is not a systemd-specific thing, just an example.) 12:07:49 "runlevel" is not really a terribly useful concept when you have more fine-grained service management. 12:08:00 elliott: oh, so those scripts are "one-shot services"? ok 12:08:07 sure 12:08:10 What does puppy linux use? 12:08:13 well, a one-shot service is one that runs a script when you start it and then just sits there 12:08:29 and of course, it can be more fine-grained than just runlevels 12:08:34 you can implement that concept in a system that deosn't support it by having it run a "daemon" that just does something and then sits there forever, I guess 12:08:37 not sure the semantics are totally identical 12:08:48 I'm just saying that there is no distinct "runlevel/managed-services changer" 12:08:59 since it's fundamentally just tellign the existing service manager to manage a different set of services 12:09:06 which is also basically all you can tell a service manager to do 12:09:48 (whether that's accomplished by modifying the filesystem and then sending the service manager a signal, or using some fancier IPC or whatever, doesn't matter much) 12:10:17 elliott: ok 12:11:04 (you can "shutdown" by, e.g. telling your service manager that the new set of services you want it to manage is {shutdown}, where shutdown is a service that just shuts down the computer when started.) 12:11:43 (so it'll cleanly stop all the running services, shutting dependencies down after the services that depend on them, and then turn the computer off.) 12:11:57 (for instance.) 12:12:12 yep 12:12:28 (of course you can also just tell it to manage the set {} and then do the shutdown yourself, assuming the process telling it to stop managing things arranges to survive past the mass shutdown.) 12:12:45 (I think the traditional killall5/shutdown stuff does some tricks to handle that?) 12:13:25 a reasonable behaviour for a service manager when told to kill is to cleanly shut down all the services it manages and then quit, so indeed ais523's two-PID solution works fine there 12:13:47 I forget, what signals can't you send to pid 1? 12:13:50 I believe systemd uses something similar to the two-PID solution, but don't know the details 12:14:00 maybe you can send any of them but some of them will cause a kernel panic... 12:14:05 I believe you can only signal PID 1 with a signal that it explicitly installed a signal handler for 12:14:09 right 12:14:37 yep, just checked the man page to confirm 12:14:40 so basically I think that it's sysrq in the wrong here, and it should just include PID , and then if everything else is written how I'd write it, it'd work out fine :P 12:14:43 *PID 1, 12:14:54 hmm, is it legal to install a handler for sigkill, even though it wouldn't run? 12:15:18 I think there might be problems with a system with no init 12:15:29 although if there are no other processes either, maybe not? 12:15:45 I wrote a minimal init impl for web of lies 12:15:58 what as that in reply to? the line "I think there might be ..." 12:15:59 *was 12:16:05 yes 12:16:08 I mean 12:16:11 what was the line mentioned in reply to 12:16:37 oh, that was in reply to killing all the processes including PID 1 12:16:54 (Linux actually has a PID 0 too, or at least used to, but that's an implementation detail) 12:17:45 okay yeah I guess the problem is that it'd exit 12:17:56 tbh, my objection to the two-pid sysem is just that it makes pstree uglier. 12:18:31 you have two separate trees, one for processes that started indirectly as a result of the boot process 12:18:37 the other being processes that started for other reasons 12:18:46 and with systemd technology, that might not be an empty set 12:19:23 I do not believe systemd uses two pids. 12:19:33 everyone gets upset at systemd putting so much stuff in PID 1 :P 12:20:55 elliott: from what I've seen that's misinformed, in that it puts most of that stuff in other single-digit PIDs instead 12:20:57 or, well 12:21:06 this sort of flamewar is basically never well-informed :-( 12:21:11 I don't remember my pstree always being two-deep when I ran systemd. 12:21:22 yes there are auxiliary systemd-* things that run too though 12:21:28 anyway I could be wrong 12:21:38 but that's my recollection 12:21:47 perhaps PID 1 does the process-starting 12:21:52 but other PIDs do other things 12:21:58 sure 12:22:03 but that doesn't help for your REISUB scenario 12:22:16 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:22:20 indeed :-( 12:22:52 I would expect more flamewars if REISUB didn't work with systemd, but then... it not working with upstart sort of surprises me because ubuntu is kinda popular so I'd have expected to see complaints 12:24:03 Um... I appear to have both upstart and systemd. 12:24:18 ditto according to man pages 12:24:22 but they can't both be init 12:24:36 ubuntu has pulled in some parts of systemd for a long while now I think 12:24:44 because stuff depends on those parts 12:24:58 or, well, I guess they used a fork of logind? 12:25:05 I'm not sure what it'd be installed for. 12:25:09 wait, oren, don't you use arch? 12:25:14 upstart on arch is very weird 12:25:52 I'm using an xubuntu system with a ton of stuff I don't need removed 12:26:05 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:26:07 ah, that must be why your system is so reliable 12:26:15 lol 12:27:01 the software is pretty reliable... the problem is that my hardware is total crap 12:28:10 but yeah for example I removed everything to do with compositing, and k-anything, and most of the g-things 12:28:39 compositing is about more than wibbly shadow effects, y'know 12:30:34 yeah it also allows transpoarent terminals. but that is done on my client anyway 12:31:27 My monitor stopped working, so I'm using a 1GB machine as a client to talk to it 12:31:33 it's more than that too 12:31:42 compositing has benefits entirely unrelated to eyecandy 12:32:27 it tears/flickers less and should be just generally smoother/faster 12:33:59 i'll keep that in mind. I'm looking at a $800-1000 range for my new laptop 12:34:33 hopefully with that I can run DF and firefox and skype at the same time 12:35:23 compositing is basically just "hardware-accelerated window management" 12:35:38 it's just that that's also what lets you do the fancier stuff 12:36:03 (though it will suck if you have really bad graphics drivers of course) 12:38:36 Now this is annoying. doesn't anyone sell laptops that weigh more than 30 grams anymore?!! 12:39:52 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:40:21 this one's almost certainly more than 30g 12:40:42 I decided to get a powerful one rather than a lightweight one, although note that I have a pretty underwhelming definition of "powerful" 12:40:42 hmm looks like dells are still sturdy 12:40:54 it was mostly just "I want another core", but I couldn't buy a laptop with less than four :-( 12:42:42 oren: "hopefully with that I can run DF and firefox and skype at the same time" -- nah, that won't work. firefox (and webpages) and skype are both such things that are always slow, no matter fast your hardware is. people just add more resource-intensive stuff to them if they run fast enough. 12:42:54 It appears in order to get a sturdy laptop from best buy,you have to spend _less_ 12:43:09 what? 30 grams? that's riddiculously light 12:43:24 It was hyperbole 12:43:40 But I want some heft 12:43:52 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:44:04 DF is also always slow 12:44:37 I don't play DF so I can't comment on that one. 12:44:44 ais523, how many dwarfs do you have? 12:44:59 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:48:24 nvd: I don't play it 13:06:02 -!- ais523 has quit. 13:06:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:08:27 I have 3 left after my latest scheme involving zompies went wrong 13:13:31 -!- GeekDude has joined. 13:32:35 question. if a programming language has infix operators with precedence syntax similar to C (C and perl are examples), and you want to add infix min and max operators, what precedence should those operators have? 13:33:00 oren: zombies? wasn't it were-elephants? 13:33:06 or was that someone else? 13:33:15 Hmm, that is a good question 13:33:25 -!- zadock has joined. 13:33:27 -!- `^_^v has joined. 13:33:55 I feel like a + b min c should be a + (b min c), but have no particular justification for that. 13:33:59 b_jonas: probably just above >,< and >=, <=? 13:34:52 elliott: weird, I intuitively felt the opposite 13:35:02 mroman: you mean so that you could use them as boolean logic? dunno, that would seem strange to me, though I can't definitely say it's wrong 13:35:15 FireFly: it may be Haskell bias. or, wait, how does a + b `min` c actually parse? 13:35:17 oh wait 13:35:26 min is and, max is or 13:35:27 you mean _above_ comparisons 13:35:28 um 13:35:29 sorry 13:35:35 yeah 13:35:39 so clearly use && and || as the operators 13:35:46 2 && 7 = 2 13:35:46 oh wait 13:35:49 2 || 7 = 7 13:35:58 mroman: so below the shifts? yes, that might make sense 13:36:23 elliott: I.. kinda like that 13:36:45 I was thinking higher precedence perhaps between multiplication and addition, or even above multiplication, I dunno 13:36:47 5 + 5 min 3 * 3 < 5 max 6 should parse as ((5+5) min (3*3)) < (5 max 6) 13:36:48 FireFly: me too. I like it about as much as I hate it 13:36:53 but I have no particular justification for that. 13:37:10 elliott: that wouldn't work, 2 && 7 already has two meanings, we can't add a third 13:37:17 (one in C and one in perl) 13:37:19 b_jonas: it just has to case on type! 13:37:23 Having min/max in-between the arithmetic operators would feel very weird to me 13:37:43 What is the perl semantics for (&&)? 13:37:45 min/max for booleans would be fun too 13:37:49 elliott: yes, but it already has a defined meaning for two ints 13:37:57 min is just and and max is just or 13:38:09 FireFly: in perl, (2 && 7) results in 7 13:38:18 FireFly: in C, it results in 1 13:38:41 what? 13:38:50 oh wait 13:38:53 7 is true in perl 13:38:53 Oh, so the same semantics as in JS I guess 13:39:01 Well, truthy 13:39:12 hm 13:39:16 I suspect python might return 7 too 13:39:27 yeah 13:39:38 actually python returns SyntaxError: invalid syntax 13:39:43 use "and" 13:39:55 && is "and" in Python 13:40:08 In JavaScript || is relatively often (in)famously used to fall back on null to a default value 13:40:43 Perl or die. 13:46:47 Interesting, I didn't know there's a conference on Go: http://pasky.or.cz/iggsc2015/cfp.html 13:48:06 (I'm also not sure what spelling those operators could use in C and C++) 13:51:10 -!- nszceta has joined. 13:51:38 I can't think of any reasonable ASCIIfication of the usual min/max syntax 13:51:44 er wait 13:51:46 disregard that 13:52:49 FireFly: /\ and \/ are the usual asciifications 13:53:39 -!- nszceta has quit (Client Quit). 13:53:40 /\ is a bit dangerous because it can conflict with existing syntax 13:54:09 `multicode maxim 13:54:12 U+1D1B6 MUSICAL SYMBOL MAXIMA \ UTF-8: f0 9d 86 b6 UTF-16BE: d834ddb6 Decimal: 𝆶 \ 𝆶 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) 13:54:15 In C? Or in C-derived languages in general? 13:54:20 `multicode minim 13:54:21 U+1D1BB MUSICAL SYMBOL MINIMA \ UTF-8: f0 9d 86 bb UTF-16BE: d834ddbb Decimal: 𝆹𝅥 \ 𝆹𝅥 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 1D1B9 1D165 \ \ U+1D1BC MUSICAL SYMBOL MINIMA BLACK \ UTF-8: f0 9d 86 bc UTF-16BE: d834ddbc Decimal: 𝆺𝅥 \ 𝆺𝅥 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) 13:54:31 `multicode minimu 13:54:32 No output. 13:54:42 FireFly: in C and C++ specifically 13:55:20 \/ is safe but only because the backslash character is barely used for anything 13:55:38 What /is/ it used for, outside of string literals? 13:55:55 it's quite hard to invent a reasonable digraph for C and C++ that doesn't conflict with _some_ existing syntax actually 13:56:16 FireFly: line joining, and these days as an escape for extended identifiers too 13:56:35 Oh, I guess /*"*/\x20" would be anoter conflicting case 13:56:44 Wait hm, that's not right 13:57:14 another* 13:57:33 (also can be part of include filenames, for crazy windows people) 13:57:40 @ isn't used a whole lot in C 13:58:05 Is it used in C++? 13:58:20 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 13:58:32 no, @ and ` are unused 13:58:41 which is exactly why people are reluctant to give it meanings 13:58:58 they're useful as escapes outside C or C++ because they're not used in C or C++ 13:59:12 That makes sense 13:59:49 something like ^| might work but it's a bit ugly 14:00:52 just use >| and <| or something like that 14:01:14 or ><, <> 14:01:21 mroman: no, >| conflicts with C++ syntax 14:01:37 why? 14:01:54 the > can be the closing delimiter of the template parameters of a variable template 14:01:55 >< and <> would be annoying.. I'm not sure which would mean what, and <> is sometimes used to mean "different from" 14:01:59 <> is an empty template list 14:02:11 >< also wouldn't work, for the same reason 14:02:18 oh. I thought you said C 14:02:19 <| might work... hmm 14:02:25 I like the idea of using < and > to allude to "less of" and "greater of" 14:02:27 mroman: I would like one that works in both C and C++ 14:02:46 I refuse C++. 14:02:49 but not necessarily in perl or ruby or javascript or java or c-sharp or all the other languages copying their syntax partially 14:02:52 I guess that's the idea behind J's <. >. as well 14:03:31 (in addition to APL using the floor/ceil operators for min/max, and thus J doing that too) 14:03:47 hmm, would => and =< work? 14:05:13 hmm no, I think those conflict too 14:08:10 basically anything involving angle brackets can conflict with template syntax 14:08:54 oh, let's use (| and (, that would confuse everyone! 14:09:09 or maybe (^ and (, 14:09:21 (^ for the ceiling sign and (, for the floor sign 14:10:29 -!- rodgort has joined. 14:11:16 Do ceiling and floor have any link to max and min? 14:13:49 max(a, ceiling(a)) = ceiling(a) 14:15:21 FireFly: yes, the link is that they have the same notation in traditional APL 14:15:33 (the left floor and left ceil bracket respectively) 14:15:53 Yeah, but that doesn't really count 14:16:27 then no 14:31:41 Why can't we use └ and ┌ 14:34:16 Because we might as well use APL then . 14:34:49 which I'm sure sounds worse than it actually is. 14:34:50 except those chars are much more commonly supported than the apl symbols 14:35:10 they are the box drawing lines 14:35:36 supported by e.g. common terminal fonts 14:36:47 Sorry. I already used the APL argument. I can't take that back now. 14:37:47 My objections to APL are unrelated to its weird symbols 14:38:39 It's like Godwin's Law. 14:38:44 Just for programming languages and with APL. 14:38:53 At some point somebody will mention APL. 14:39:02 The main problem is that the weird symbols are composed with overstrike 14:40:38 so INTERCAL isn't unique at that? 14:40:43 `? APL 14:40:43 APL? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:40:52 nope 14:42:55 `learn APL stands for Algorithmic Language 14:42:58 Learned 'apl': APL stands for Algorithmic Language 14:43:27 :( 14:43:35 that's wrong 14:43:43 `learn APL stands for Algorithmic Programming Language. 14:43:46 Learned 'apl': APL stands for Algorithmic Programming Language. 14:44:03 `? ALGOL 14:44:04 ALGOL? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:44:07 Austrian Potato League 14:44:22 `learn ALGOL stands for A Programming Language 14:44:24 Learned 'algol': ALGOL stands for A Programming Language 14:46:11 Algol 68 should have 68 reserved words 14:46:13 not just 61 14:47:57 There are too many damn programming languages 14:48:19 and more research should be put into Language interoperability 14:48:56 There should be some kind of standard way of doing that 14:49:08 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Theriel * New user account 14:55:21 Frege 14:55:44 That time could have been better spent by having a jvm bytecode backend for ghc 15:06:46 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Quit: Going, going, gone.). 15:32:07 -!- mihow has joined. 15:37:57 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 15:45:54 -!- hjulle has joined. 15:50:56 Algol is like, every programming langugae 16:00:01 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 16:12:36 -!- ais523 has quit. 16:16:15 -!- spiette has joined. 16:38:11 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 16:41:07 -!- mihow has joined. 16:57:55 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 17:02:43 -!- mihow has joined. 17:03:05 -!- mihow has quit (Client Quit). 17:03:29 [wiki] [[Talk:Clue (Keymaker)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42792&oldid=37836 * Theriel * (+2757) /* Probabilistic musings */ 17:09:02 -!- spatterworthy has joined. 17:23:01 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:23:34 -!- atrapado has joined. 17:35:31 -!- password2 has joined. 17:36:00 -!- password2 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 17:38:25 -!- password2 has joined. 17:38:48 -!- password2 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 17:43:16 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:45:31 mroman: isn't the standard way of doing language interopability called C? 17:46:00 -!- spatterworthy has quit (Quit: Page closed). 17:46:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:59:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:00:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 18:00:19 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:04:38 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:11:58 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 18:50:32 -!- hjulle has joined. 19:02:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:27:44 -!- nycs has joined. 19:29:25 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:37:08 -!- kline has changed nick to ayylmao. 19:54:45 -!- zadock has joined. 20:05:56 -!- hilquias has joined. 20:09:03 -!- APic has joined. 20:40:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:47:00 Help, I am vaguely tempted to vote for a minor party in the election on Thursday 20:48:55 not like anyone's vote makes a difference 20:50:35 oren, I'm actually three thousand two hundred and nineteen people 20:51:48 oh wow, that sounds like a severe split personality disorder case 20:51:51 Oh, well in that case... 20:52:06 nvd: http://www.threehundredeight.com/p/alberta.html 20:52:39 coppro, I am not sure how that is relevant, I am in York 20:52:55 nvd: you can watch this trainwreck election and forget about yours for a while! 20:53:24 Well, I found out this evening that I'm actually in a different constituency to the one I thought I was in 20:54:14 They should rename York to Old York 20:55:20 Yeah. Especially what with North York and Yorkdale confusing matters 20:55:34 FireFly, we're making a new Haskell compiler because YHC sort of stopped 20:55:43 We're calling it the New York Haskell Compiler 20:55:56 Excellent 20:56:00 (both are in toronto, previously known as York) 20:57:10 My vote in particular is worthless because they put me in a gigantic riding 21:02:36 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:19:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:19:40 -!- atrapado has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:19:56 -!- nycs has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 21:22:00 -!- atrapado has joined. 21:25:35 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:53:18 pkill -9 firefox 21:53:22 SH*IT 21:53:51 -!- oren has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:57:35 -!- ornn has joined. 22:00:24 would nicing firefox make it so that other programs (like my window manager) get higher access to memory as well as cpu? 22:02:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:02:43 Hmmm. I guess whichever process has more time on cpu can put out more page faults to increase its resident set 22:07:36 -!- APic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:25:05 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Quit: Going, going, gone.). 22:26:21 -!- clog_ has joined. 22:27:23 -!- boily has joined. 22:27:36 -!- Tod-Autojoined has joined. 22:28:54 -!- tromp___ has joined. 22:29:12 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:29:21 -!- Vorpal_ has joined. 22:29:35 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:29:35 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:29:35 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:29:36 -!- tromp_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:30:35 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:30:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:38:12 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 22:56:42 @metar CYUL 22:56:42 CYUL 052200Z 25014G23KT 30SM FEW065 BKN210 20/M03 A3018 RMK CU1CI6 CU TR SLP220 DENSITY ALT 400FT 22:56:46 @metar ENVA 22:56:46 ENVA 052250Z 06008KT 030V090 9999 -DZ FEW040 BKN090 10/06 Q0997 RMK WIND 670FT 13012G23KT 22:57:00 darn. the difference is diminishing. 22:58:00 we actually had a heat wave today. don't worry, it's supposed to pass. 22:58:36 what's the best @metar for berkeley, ca twh 22:58:46 -!- fractal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:59:37 -!- hilquias has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:01:08 shachaf: wunderground recommends KOAK. 23:01:11 @metar KOAK 23:01:11 KOAK 052253Z 26012KT 10SM FEW017 SCT200 16/08 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP136 T01610078 23:01:34 @metar KSJC 23:01:34 KSJC 052253Z 32014KT 10SM FEW018 SCT200 19/08 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP128 T01890078 23:01:44 i've moved to the cold climates of the north 23:01:56 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:02:03 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 23:02:14 oerjan: everyone knows writing software is the path to maximal fame hth 23:02:51 i may not be maximizing that function hth 23:03:21 berkeley berkeley KOAK KOAK 23:03:56 oerjan: over here it was all foggy during the day 23:03:58 * boily is tempted to mapole some sanity into oerjan, but rescinds 23:04:10 and not particularily warm, I think 23:08:30 boily: do you have a scientific study to prove mapoling adjusts sanity in the correct direction twh 23:09:33 perhaps oerjan will require a hungusprod hth 23:09:44 wat 23:10:01 http://lparchive.org/Zork-Grand-Inquisitor/Update%2017/ 23:10:09 sigh, it's not the same 23:10:37 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FiRhbWP7To#t=6m57s 23:10:39 hth 23:12:00 oerjan: empirical evidence supports mapoling hth 23:13:57 oerjan: do /you/ have any evidence supporting swatting? 23:15:16 i am not making claims of health benefits from swatting 23:15:34 Fair point 23:25:14 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it). 23:30:42 -!- fractal has joined. 23:39:38 -!- AndoDaan has joined. 23:42:21 -!- fractal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:57:05 doesn't all evidence (or lack thereof) always support swatting? 23:57:51 I also think mapoling is isomorphic to swatting