←2015-05-07 2015-05-08 2015-05-09→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:00:47 <quintopia> helloily
00:00:47 <oerjan> hm or wait there's a PIE reconstruction *marǵ-
00:01:21 <quintopia> PIE IS DELICIOUS
00:02:17 <oerjan> oh margin is via the latin version
00:02:56 <oerjan> the different meanings may have been borrowed back and forth
00:03:23 <oerjan> quintopia: argh need to eat
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00:31:30 <quintopia> boily: wanna play game. i feel like game.
00:36:02 <FreeFull> The Polish for a square is kwadrat
00:37:13 <quintopia> makes sense
00:37:18 <oerjan> FreeFull: i'm sorry, the only correct spelling is "kvadrat" hth
00:37:41 * oerjan finally realizes polish is just norwegian with funny spelling hth
00:37:59 <FreeFull> Polish doesn't even have v as a letter
00:38:23 <FreeFull> oerjan: How about this: yellow is żółty
00:38:41 <oerjan> FreeFull: ok that's a really horrible misspelling of "gul"
00:39:31 <oerjan> i recall an old norwegian encyclopedia that didn't bother giving w its own letter ordering
00:39:41 <FreeFull> Red is czerwony
00:39:51 <FreeFull> Blue is niebieski
00:39:58 <FreeFull> (niebo is sky)
00:40:12 <FreeFull> (or heaven)
00:40:24 <oerjan> i'm afraid we're pretty close to english there, "rød" and "blå".
00:43:33 <shachaf> * oerjan finally realizes polish is just norwegian with funny spelling <-- norwegian's spelling is much funnier hth
00:43:40 <boily> quintopia: I would feel like game if I weren't going to be embedding myself deep on my mattress in a few minutes :(
00:43:49 <oerjan> shachaf: wøt
00:44:17 <oerjan> matrix embedding
00:44:28 <boily> diagonalisation.
00:44:29 <shachaf> oerjan: you didn't fall for my trap :'(
00:44:33 <quintopia> boily: then take le nap, but DEN PLAY ZE GAME
00:45:45 <quintopia> oerjan: norwegian is good but it just n3eds a little more...polish. hth.
00:46:14 <oerjan> shachaf: wąt trap
00:46:19 <FreeFull> oerjan: czerwony comes from a bug that red dye was made from
00:46:38 <oerjan> OKAY
00:47:30 <shachaf> oerjan: the idea was that you would notice the missing hth and think "oh, i forgot to double-hth", but then you'd think "wait, but it's /me, so i don't need to double-hth", and then you would become confused, and check the logs, and finaly swat me
00:48:10 <oerjan> shachaf: fiendish hth
00:48:44 <oerjan> shachaf: your error was to assume i would remember whether i had used hth or not
00:50:27 <shachaf> finally
00:51:06 <shachaf> `` echo bath | h
00:51:07 <HackEgo> bahth
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01:05:42 <spatterworhty> ... what does hth mean?
01:06:46 <shachaf> `? hth
01:06:48 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
01:06:58 <shachaf> It means "hope that helps" or "hope that helped" or something like that.
01:08:14 <spatterworhty> Ah. The way that it was constantly used made me question that interpretation hth
01:08:44 <shachaf> It might be "hope this helps".
01:08:49 <shachaf> "hope this helped" doesn't make much sense.
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01:51:26 <fowl> its only used sarcastically in this channel haha
01:53:31 <oerjan> what a fowl thing to say tdnh
01:57:06 <spatterworhty> I'm suprised that nobodies used htththh
01:57:28 <spatterworhty> Hope that this hope that helps helps
01:58:07 <shachaf> we're not nobodies here!
01:58:19 <spatterworhty> It can, of course, be nested arbitrarily deep. htththhthth
01:58:34 <shachaf> i'll have you know oerjan's twin published respectable maths papers about ergodicity or something
01:59:28 <spatterworhty> Ok, so you're even lower than nobodies, neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirds
02:00:03 * oerjan feels this slight twitching in his power abuse finger
02:00:32 <shachaf> is that the one connected to the swatter
02:00:40 <shachaf> or are you saying i should stop
02:01:15 <spatterworhty> I think he means me
02:01:22 <spatterworhty> * cowers in fear
02:01:57 <oerjan> ^ul (h)S((h)(t))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
02:01:57 <fungot> htththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhtthhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtthhtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhtthhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtthhtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhtthhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtthhtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhthtth ...too much output!
02:02:17 <oerjan> deep enough?
02:02:56 <oerjan> (this sequence is dense in a nice uniquely ergodic system hth hth)
02:03:01 <oerjan> oops
02:03:23 <oerjan> *the orbit of
02:03:53 <shachaf> did you quadruple hth to type that
02:04:39 <oerjan> shachaf: the swatter doesn't work against people calling people nerds, tru fax
02:04:54 <shachaf> wait, you actually did publish papers on ergodic theory
02:04:59 <shachaf> i thought i was misremembering that
02:05:12 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHAHA*
02:05:55 <fowl> Ergodic theory (ergon work, hodos way) is a branch of mathematics that studies dynamical systems with an invariant measure and related problems. Its initial development was motivated by problems of statistical physics.
02:06:24 <shachaf> and apparently i have to pay $45 to read it tdnh
02:06:48 <oerjan> fancy
02:06:49 <shachaf> did you become the evil twin by selling your soul to publishers?
02:06:57 <oerjan> MAYBE
02:07:03 <oerjan> i don't think i got paid
02:07:28 <shachaf> did you get a degree
02:07:33 <oerjan> i did
02:07:43 <shachaf> that's basically money
02:07:48 <oerjan> OKAY
02:10:17 <spatterworhty> It's like one of those lotteries that advertise money for life, really
02:18:28 <fowl> lol
02:26:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42811&oldid=42630 * Esowiki201529A * (+43)
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06:13:39 <FireFly> <oerjan> ...but archaic ← Yeah, only used in "i gengäld" ("in return") today, I think
06:20:08 <FireFly> I didn't realise what the etymology was before now, though
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06:58:40 <mroman> Is there a branch of mathematics that studies the impact of mathematical studies on society?
06:59:35 <b_jonas> mroman: I'm not sure such a thing would be a branch of mathematics
07:05:35 <mroman> :-(
07:14:59 <mroman> According to xkcd everything is a branch of mathematics.
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08:29:17 <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ england what the fuck
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08:36:10 <FireFly> Not a fan of tories?
08:44:10 <mroman> why does hIsEOF block?
08:44:45 <myname> mroman: is stdin at eof if the user didn't type yet?
08:46:08 <mroman> i'm not using it on stdin
08:47:03 <mroman> hIsEOF *may* block
08:47:05 <mroman> what is this
08:47:50 <mroman> so
08:47:58 <mroman> how do I know when reading is finished?
08:48:45 <mroman> hIsReady throws an error when EOF is reached
08:48:52 <mroman> so you should check for EOF before hIsReady
08:49:05 <mroman> but hIsEOF blocks infinetily
08:54:34 <myname> could you provide some more context? if you can pass stdin, it makes perfect sense that it may block
09:13:25 <mroman> I'm using it on a handle of another process
09:13:28 <mroman> launched with shellCmd
09:16:43 <mroman> which uses shell and createProcess
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09:18:21 <mroman> for example with netcat hIsEOF on stdout of it seems to block
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09:19:50 <nvd> Phantom_Hoover, I think in the long term a Tory majority is good because either their supporters are right and they somehow do a good job, or, without the lib dems to blame things on, they get largely discredited
09:19:57 <nvd> Although this is just wishful thinking, I admit
09:20:27 <mroman> http://codepad.org/wgxqfHgF but you can't really make use of that :)
09:21:05 <Phantom_Hoover> nvd, very, very wishful
09:21:22 <nvd> What can I say, I am an optimist through and through
09:21:28 <Phantom_Hoover> if there's one thing this election's proven it's that the english public--
09:21:42 <nvd> Although I voted for the only party that deserved to win, Yorkshire First
09:21:46 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry, the swing voters in english marginals who actually decide who the country's run--
09:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> have an unlimited capacity to believe obvious, utter bullshit
09:23:16 <nvd> (and I could choose to vote in either a tory safe seat or a labour safe seat)
09:26:06 <Phantom_Hoover> in the long tory tradition of 'fuck you, i've got mine' it's vaguely hopeful that they've promised more devolution as a sop to the scots
09:28:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i want to get a degree and go home, i've seen enough of england
09:28:27 <fizzie> Hey, they didn't even let me vote. "Blah blah British citizen blah." (Perhaps a wise decision.)
09:29:41 <nvd> fizzie, I thought resident EU citizens could vote?
09:29:59 <fizzie> Not in this election.
09:30:11 <nvd> Resident commonwealth citizens can
09:30:18 <nvd> So you should have been from Malta
09:30:24 <fizzie> "Additionally, the following cannot vote in a UK general election: EU citizens resident in the UK (although they can vote at elections to local authorities, devolved legislatures and the European Parliament)"
09:30:44 <nvd> Huuuuh
09:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i have the 'fuck off back to eton' song stuck in my head
09:33:02 <fizzie> I think it's the same in Finland: non-Finnish citizens can't vote in the presidential or parliamentary elections, but the rules for the local and EU parliament ones are different. (The former is open to citizens of EU countries, Norway and Iceland, and anyone who's been resident for 2 years or more; the latter to EU only.)
09:34:22 <fizzie> Also: if I vote at the local EU parliament elections, I can't vote at the Finnish one.
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10:47:16 <FreeFull> EU citizens can become UK citizens though
10:49:22 <b_jonas> FreeFull: not easily
10:49:31 <fizzie> And it's not exactly limited to EU citizens.
10:49:57 <fizzie> You'll ("usually") have to live here for 5 years, at the very least.
10:50:13 <FreeFull> Yes
10:50:38 <FreeFull> I've lived in the UK since 2006
10:53:52 <fizzie> I understand there's a test, too.
11:01:10 <boily> the UK is a nice place. they even have the same Queen as ours!
11:05:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gemooy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42812&oldid=40956 * Chris Pressey * (-64) Update link to GEMOOY project NOTES
11:16:57 <FreeFull> boily: Well, she is the Queen of a lot of places
11:18:25 <nvd> She's like both my queens
11:21:31 <boily> nvellod. both your queens?
11:21:46 <nvd> boily, I'm dual national UK/Australia
11:23:32 <boily> tdh.
11:25:15 <FreeFull> She's just one of my Queens (Queen of England)
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12:42:57 <oren> what's the difference between 赤 and 紅?????
12:43:36 <oren> they both mean red but in different contaxts
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12:46:16 <int-e> . o O ( red socks )
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14:39:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42813&oldid=42811 * Esowiki201529A * (+37)
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18:48:25 <nvd> Ugh
18:48:47 <nvd> My principles of programming languages module states, roughly, "all languages are turing complete"
18:49:14 <oerjan> "roughly"
18:49:45 <shachaf> oerjan: been a long time since the last olist, hasn't it?
18:49:54 <oerjan> shachaf: several hours!
18:49:55 <nvd> oerjan, I'm paraphrasing
18:50:10 <oren> Well write the author
18:50:18 <oren> and send him a correction
18:50:21 <oerjan> nvd: well that means i cannot judge whether you're misreading or not, doesn't it.
18:50:31 <nvd> The slides say "All languages are computationally equivalent: Turing Completeness"
18:50:50 <shachaf> are the slides actually a comic strip
18:50:53 <int-e> !!!!1
18:51:01 <shachaf> or is there another reason for the gratuitous bolding
18:51:20 <nvd> shachaf, it's italics but I don't know how to do that in IRC
18:51:32 <int-e> Fun, so there are non-(programming language)s that are used for programming.
18:51:48 <oerjan> Hm is this it
18:51:50 <oerjan> nope
18:52:00 <oerjan> What about this
18:52:03 <shachaf> this might be your best approximation hth
18:52:04 <int-e> oerjan: that's a tab
18:52:27 <oerjan> int-e: yes, but it's not irc uses tab for anything else...
18:52:28 <oren> just write the professor
18:52:32 <oerjan> *+like
18:52:39 <shachaf> oerjan: it's used for tab completion hth
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18:52:58 <nvd> Trying key combos is not working well
18:53:12 <int-e> oerjan: of course it's not displayed as a tab... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/I.png
18:53:25 <oren> I can moke bold like *bold*
18:53:44 <oerjan> shachaf: that's not part of irc itself, but your client.
18:53:51 <oren> I dono how to make other stuf
18:53:52 <shachaf> int-e: My underlining didn't show up?
18:53:58 <nvd> "All that is needed to make a language Turing Complete is a way of specifying what to do
18:53:58 <nvd> next on the basis of the current state of the ‘universe’. In other words, all that’s needed is a
18:53:58 <nvd> ‘conditional branch’!"
18:54:00 <int-e> shachaf: I'm filtering colors.
18:54:13 <oerjan> bold is easy
18:54:14 <oren> !!
18:54:14 <EgoBot> How exciting!
18:54:23 <oren> ?!?!?!?
18:54:23 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
18:54:46 <shachaf> oerjan: was unaware my irc client was doing the tab completion tdh
18:54:54 <oren> I am pretty damn sure you need more than a conditional brANCH
18:54:57 <int-e> shachaf: I've found that it keeps me saner. You'll notice that my irssi scheme isn't very colorful either :)
18:55:00 <oerjan> nvd: congratulations, you've entered the "knows more than your teacher" zone hth
18:55:18 <int-e> s/scheme/theme/
18:55:30 <nvd> oerjan, I do not like this
18:55:38 <nvd> Because I have an exam on this in less than a week
18:56:01 <oren> Write the head of CS department
18:56:04 <shachaf> (1) Are all languages computationally equivalent? [y/n]
18:56:45 <int-e> Oh yeah, knowing more than your teachers... When you know everything, you can get a Bachelor's degree. When you realize that you know nothing, you can get a Master's. And when you realize that Professors also don't know anything you can get a PhD.
18:57:13 <oerjan> int-e: wow your irssi theme is even more subdued than mine
18:57:20 <int-e> (Now if I could remember where I've read that...)
18:57:22 <nvd> It's really annoying because this actually contradicts another module I'm doing
18:57:30 <oren> IRSSI has themes??
18:57:49 <int-e> http://www.irssi.org/themes
18:57:54 <shachaf> nvd: pick the contravariant one hth
18:58:06 <oerjan> or maybe not entirely, i don't bold nicks
18:58:12 <shachaf> (because everyone knows that only right modules are contravariant)
18:58:27 <oerjan> oren: i use the clean theme
18:58:35 <shachaf> like, whoa, dude
18:58:42 <oren> I am currently using whatever the defoult is
18:58:45 <shachaf> if i stopped saying "like, whoa, dude" so much, would that make me subdude?
18:58:49 <int-e> oerjan: there's a bit of red in there, too.
18:58:54 <nvd> shachaf, what if I'm doing a module over the ring of differential operators?
18:59:01 <shachaf> `? nvd
18:59:02 <HackEgo> nvd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:59:36 <nvd> `learn nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional.
18:59:37 <int-e> nutritional value decomposition
18:59:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'nvd': nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional.
18:59:51 <nvd> `? d-module
18:59:52 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
19:00:01 <shachaf> `? tanebventions
19:00:03 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, and this sentence.
19:00:24 <shachaf> `? persistence
19:00:27 <HackEgo> Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since.
19:00:41 <quintopia> i like that one
19:00:42 <nvd> Oooh, that's a new one
19:01:25 <quintopia> `? automatic squirrel feeders
19:01:26 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them.
19:01:27 <shachaf> tell me about your siblings, nvd
19:01:29 <shachaf> how many bros persist?
19:01:36 <nvd> shachaf, one, thus far
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19:01:59 <nvd> Whence the "neb" in Taneb
19:02:26 <oren> neb is two?
19:02:31 <quintopia> `? this sentence
19:02:32 <HackEgo> This sentence was invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
19:03:04 <oerjan> oren: the default when i started using irssi was dark background i think so i got rid of it as soon as possible
19:03:33 <quintopia> `? torus
19:03:34 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
19:03:57 <oren> A video game map is usually a torus
19:04:11 <quintopia> usually?
19:04:16 <quintopia> i disagree
19:04:28 <quintopia> `? go
19:04:29 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
19:04:33 <oren> I think Civilization uses a cylinder
19:05:02 <nvd> oren, many video games use a rectangle now
19:05:06 <quintopia> i think pretty much all first person 3d games...do not use any of those things
19:05:53 <oren> All the FF's and Chrono Trigger use toruses. tori?
19:05:56 <shachaf> I'm surprised Taneb isn't a Tanebvention.
19:06:07 <quintopia> there was that one game that used a hyperbolic projective space
19:06:11 <quintopia> or something
19:07:28 <quintopia> this thing http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/HyperRogue it's just an infinite hyperbolic plane
19:08:01 <oren> Apparently it is tori
19:08:12 <int-e> oerjan: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cOlOr.png is as colorful as it gets, I guess.
19:08:30 <nvd> shachaf, my parents worked together to invent Taneb
19:08:54 <shachaf> nvd: are you going to icfp
19:09:18 <nvd> shachaf, no, I will be in Italy at the time
19:09:28 <nvd> Also I don't think I can easily afford a trip to Vancouver
19:10:03 <int-e> the theme is http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/inverse.theme if anybody cares.
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19:10:35 <oerjan> @ping
19:10:35 <lambdabot> pong
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19:11:06 <oerjan> `? cis
19:11:07 <HackEgo> The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
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19:11:18 <oerjan> hth
19:11:27 <int-e> constant irritation
19:11:56 <nvd> oerjan, that's... closer to the truth than I like
19:12:01 <shachaf> `` grep -l '\. ' wisdom/*
19:12:02 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°​_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/atrix \ wisdom/brick \ wisdom/burlesque \ wisdom/ci \ wisdom/finnish \ wisdom/gaspacho \ wisdom/gazpacho \ wisdom/htdh \ wisdom/irrelevant info \ wisdom/norway \ wisdom/oerjan_ \ wisdom/spam \ wisdom/sweden
19:12:02 <myndzi> |
19:12:02 <myndzi> o/`¯º
19:12:06 <shachaf> hm
19:12:36 <nvd> A lot of my character development since 2007 wouldn't have happened without the CIs
19:12:36 <oerjan> <oren> I think Civilization uses a cylinder <-- going north of the north pole doesn't quite make sense...
19:13:53 <oren> a sphere with two holes would be equivalent to a cylinder
19:13:56 <int-e> stupid non-toroidal planets.
19:14:39 <oerjan> nvd: exactly as planned hth
19:14:48 <int-e> oerjan: if that was an objection I didn't get the point.
19:14:54 <nvd> For a start, I wouldn't be in this channel
19:15:16 <nvd> I wouldn't have heard of computer science, let alone be doing half a degree in it and be an active member of my uni's computer science society
19:15:42 <nvd> I wouldn't have made a quite large number of friends
19:15:55 <oerjan> int-e: that's a very mysterious channel, #fooooo
19:16:09 <int-e> oerjan: I needed a quiet place to test :P
19:17:39 * int-e still hasn't got the closing > after hilighted nicks right...
19:19:01 <oerjan> int-e: objection to what
19:19:58 <shachaf> #FOOOOOD
19:20:04 <int-e> oerjan: to civilization using a cylinder
19:20:11 <oerjan> shachaf: sorry, i just ate hth
19:20:27 <oerjan> int-e: it was an explanation not an objection hth
19:20:36 <shachaf> you ate a hairy toe?
19:20:55 <oerjan> shachaf: thanks, now i have to eat again
19:20:55 <int-e> oerjan: Ok then.
19:20:59 <oerjan> (not really)
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19:21:17 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm sure you could get a second helping hth
19:21:30 <oerjan> shachaf: well i do have ten of them
19:22:06 * oerjan vaguely recalls biting his toe nails when he was very small
19:22:28 * shachaf vaguely recalls stapling his thumb when he was very small
19:22:51 <oerjan> ouch
19:22:51 <shachaf> I was sure it wouldn't hurt.
19:23:01 <shachaf> I told everyone that it wouldn't hurt, and then put the stapler on my thumb and pushed.
19:23:07 <shachaf> i was wrong hth
19:23:11 <int-e> a tough lesson
19:23:27 <int-e> But valuable, I suppose. I trust there was no permanent damage?
19:23:40 <shachaf> hard to say
19:24:10 <shachaf> hmm, i took to biting my thumb maybe 10-15 years after that
19:24:25 <shachaf> there's probably some permanent damage from that
19:24:47 <shachaf> but not from the stapler
19:25:32 <shachaf> `? htdh
19:25:33 <HackEgo> HtDH is a classic text on How to Design Hotdogs or possibly Hogprams. It is all about functional condiments, and was co-authored by Herence Tao and Don Ho.
19:25:36 <nvd> "Since everything in a programming language consists of sequences of characters" excuse you, Principles of Programming Languages, Piet is a thing that exists
19:26:14 <oren> I don't consider apl to consist of character either
19:26:16 <shachaf> nvd: a language is defined as a set of strings hth
19:26:41 <nvd> shachaf, but a programming language isn't
19:27:01 <oren> Apl uses overstrike, so it isn't a sequence so much as an arrangement
19:27:29 <oren> Similarly, befunge can't really be said to be a "sequence"
19:27:44 <oren> It is a "grid"
19:28:42 <oerjan> "everything can be encoded as a string so we won't bother to distinguish everything from a string" hth
19:29:02 <shachaf> everything can be encoded as a unary string hth
19:29:14 <oerjan> shachaf: that has some overhead tdnh
19:29:46 <shachaf> so does every encoding hth
19:30:10 <oerjan> lisp is sort of not string-based either
19:30:24 <shachaf> now you're stretching it
19:30:30 <shachaf> if lisp isn't string-based, what is?
19:30:45 <oerjan> it's AST based
19:31:05 <oren> uh. sed
19:31:19 <oerjan> sed seems string-based all right hth
19:31:28 <shachaf> oh, that reminds me
19:31:44 <shachaf> if you have two total orderings on a finite set, they determine a permutation on that set
19:32:04 <shachaf> but what if the set is infinite? a total ordering doesn't uniquely determine a permutation, but what sort of ordering does?
19:32:13 <shachaf> maybe a well-ordering?
19:32:44 <oren> a total ordering plus a given starting point would
19:33:03 <oren> wait uh no
19:33:13 <oerjan> shachaf: a well ordering does, yes
19:34:04 <quintopia> since building pattern constructors and such in CGoL is not "programming" because it doesn't use a "programming language", what is it?
19:34:40 <oerjan> that's an interesting question, is there an ordered set with no non-trivial monotone automorphism that is neither well-ordered nor the reverse?
19:35:07 <oerjan> *nor reversely well-ordered
19:36:32 <oerjan> (that's basically equivalent to your question, i think)
19:37:26 <oerjan> shachaf: oh wait the two orderings must be isomorphic to start with to give a permutation
19:37:47 <oerjan> so e.g. omega and omega+1 cannot be used
19:38:03 <oerjan> so it must be the _same_ ordinal, if a well-ordering.
19:38:59 <oerjan> but once you have that, it becomes equivalent
19:45:27 <oerjan> shachaf: oh hm \{ 1/n | n \in Z, n \neq 0 \} is neither well-ordered nor the reverse, but has that property
19:46:07 <oerjan> i.e. the naturals followed by the naturals in reverse.
19:46:46 <oerjan> oh to have the property every subsegment must also have it
19:47:06 <oerjan> (property: no non-trivial monotone self-bijection)
19:50:30 <oerjan> oh hm find a subsegment with the property of minimal cardinality
19:50:58 <oerjan> wait
19:51:04 <oerjan> _without_ the property.
19:57:24 <shachaf> help, you said all sorts of things
19:59:03 <shachaf> anyway well-ordering is just one idea, presumably there are other orderings
19:59:49 <oerjan> well i did find one
20:00:11 <oerjan> but i'm wondering if well-ordering + reverse well-ordering covers all
20:01:06 <oerjan> + = followed by
20:01:57 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suslin%27s_problem seems possibly irrelevant hth
20:03:49 <shachaf> dth?
20:04:49 <shachaf> i don't even know hth
20:04:49 <oerjan> well it's just a problem about orderings that's independent of ZFC
20:05:19 <shachaf> anyway the original motivation for thinking about this was the thing with finite sets where there's no natural isomorphism between total orderings and permutations
20:05:19 <oerjan> but it says nothing about uniquely determined permutations (and indeed R doesn't have them...)
20:06:10 <int-e> O-kay, I fixed the > coloring ...
20:06:41 <shachaf> where defining a "base ordering" to go between permutations and total orderings seemed analogous to defining a basis to go between linear maps and matrices
20:06:57 <shachaf> so i was wondering about the infinite case
20:07:37 <shachaf> and since "every vector space has a basis" and "every set can be well-ordered" are equivalent, i was thinking about using a well-ordering rather than just a total ordering
20:07:46 <int-e> Finally, after 5? 8? years...
20:08:03 <oerjan> wait are they equivalent again
20:08:23 <shachaf> well, both equivalent to the axiom of choice
20:08:30 <shachaf> aren't they? twnh
20:09:24 <oerjan> ok wikipedia claims so...
20:11:54 <oerjan> it's probably the boolean prime ideal theorem confusing me again
20:12:05 <shachaf> "2000 Toril Aalberg and Ørjan Johansen"
20:12:07 <shachaf> is that you twh
20:12:28 <oerjan> as this thing that's _almost_ about bases in a sense, yet weaker than AoC
20:12:35 <oerjan> shachaf: doubtful
20:12:50 <shachaf> which thing is almost about bases?
20:12:59 <oerjan> the boolean prime ideal theorem
20:15:12 <shachaf> What are examples of "basis"-type things other than the two I mentioned?
20:16:47 <oerjan> well "every boolean algebra is isomorphic to a boolean algebra of sets"... would be the one i'm alluding to here...
20:17:07 <oerjan> oh and what's this thing again...
20:19:00 <oerjan> the subdirect representation theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdirectly_irreducible_algebra
20:19:31 <oerjan> it includes at least the vector space and boolean algebra things as special cases
20:19:48 <oerjan> oh hm
20:20:01 <oerjan> well it's not exactly basis
20:31:25 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, regarding the ordering problem, could something like this work? http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cantor.png The idea is to add one isolated point in the first removed interval; then two each in the two intervals removed next, and so on... those added points are the only ones that have both a successor and a predecessor in the order, and they can be used to approach all points in the cantor...
20:31:27 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated).
20:31:31 <int-e> ...set by a cauchy sequence... so I don't see how the order has any automorphism besides reflection (which could easily be ruled out by adding yet another isolated point to one side)
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20:35:15 <oerjan> int-e: ah that's something like what i was trying to think of, except i didn't realize you could use just finite sets as "tags"
20:36:10 <Melvar> Today:
20:36:15 <Melvar> ( let foo = "world" in interpolate "Hello, ${foo}!"
20:36:15 <idris-bot> "Hello, world!" : String
20:36:31 <oerjan> probably because i was still thinking of well-ordered sets as the thing to start with
20:38:17 <oerjan> Melvar: some day soon it'll turn out idris has become entirely equivalent to perl in power
20:38:52 <int-e> oerjan: Ah, tag, good term. How many tags do we need? Is there a cute aperiodic way of labeling a binary tree that would let us get away with just two different tags?
20:39:24 <Melvar> ( let foo = "world" in interpolate "Hello, ${bar}!"
20:39:24 <idris-bot> When elaborating argument x to function Melvar.Interpolate.interpolate:
20:39:25 <idris-bot> No such variable bar
20:39:41 <oerjan> int-e: i don't think that is wise because the cantor set _itself_ can easily be transformed
20:39:57 <oerjan> so you don't really have the tree stable
20:40:40 <int-e> oerjan: Yes, basically I'm wondering how weird the resulting tree rotations can become.
20:42:06 <int-e> (abusing the term "tree rotation" -- a tree rotation is a transformation of a tree that doesn't change the order of the leaves)
20:42:24 <int-e> err leafs.
20:50:04 <oerjan> int-e: i suspect a finite number of tags is impossible, by an explicitly constructed isomorphism
20:50:31 <oerjan> that is, assume that between any two tags all the others must be represented
20:50:56 <oerjan> (if not, pass to a subtree)
20:51:41 <oerjan> and assume two trees use the same set of tags
20:52:06 <oerjan> then i think you can construct a rotation that identifies the tags
20:53:30 <int-e> plausible.
20:57:23 <oerjan> argh weekend neighbor party
21:05:42 <fizzie> Heh, Wikipedia.
21:05:59 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensionless_physical_constant "A common example is the fine-structure constant α, with approximate value Expression error: Unexpected < operator.[1]"
21:06:17 <fizzie> Admittedly that seems quite dimensionless.
21:06:44 <oerjan> that's just a sign that we're doomed hth
21:08:43 <fizzie> I'd report a bug, but I've forgotten my account. If it's even the sort of account the bug reporting thing accepts. (It speaks of a "Wikimedia unified account".)
21:09:19 <oerjan> they recently unified all the accounts
21:09:35 <fizzie> I'm sure someone else will notice and report, in the time it would take for me to figure this out.
21:12:32 <FreeFull> It's {{physconst|alpha|round=auto|after=.}}
21:12:39 <FreeFull> I wonder where the bug is
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21:16:19 <fizzie> Well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Physconst examples are all also Expression error: Unexpected < operator.
21:16:45 <fizzie> Wait; all under "examples", yes, but only a subset under the "available constants" list.
21:17:04 <oerjan> *all except one
21:17:13 <fizzie> Oh, yes, G.
21:17:22 <fizzie> And the fine structure constant on that page is not broken.
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21:17:42 <oerjan> heh
21:17:56 <oerjan> that page itself hasn't changed since 2012
21:18:12 <FireFly> Looking at the source, I'm going to guess it's an unmatched comment <!-- --> somehow
21:18:33 <int-e> oerjan: btw, yes, the freefall police chief is on top of things
21:19:04 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!).
21:20:37 <fizzie> I can't see any obvious reasons why some work and some don't, but I guess it could always be something caching-related.
21:21:09 <fizzie> Physconst/data was changed semi-recently (May 5), but if it had been broken that long, I would assume someone would have noticed.
21:21:22 <fizzie> (I mean, what do people use Wikipedia for if not physical constants?)
21:22:18 <FireFly> Maybe someone could bring it up in their IRC channel
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21:26:19 <zzo38> A lot of stuff, I expect, you can use Wikipedia for.
21:37:54 * oerjan tried subst'ing the template parts in his sandbox but it only grew larger and suddenly the error message changed
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21:40:04 <fizzie> Perhaps it's becoming sentient.
21:40:12 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have an expert opinion on that?
21:40:12 <fungot> fizzie: it's not defined
21:40:18 <fizzie> Oh, I see.
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21:49:15 <FireFly> Explains why it's erroring, at least
21:49:30 <FireFly> fungot: so how do we deal with that?
21:49:31 <fungot> FireFly: expressions are function calls, but never grow the stack.
21:49:56 <oerjan> fungot: i am not sure we're talking about the same language here...
21:49:56 <fungot> oerjan: well i wasnt assuming that thered be some response other than booleans." fnord
21:50:32 <oerjan> fungot doesn't seem to like elaborate criticism.
21:50:32 <fungot> oerjan: there's a whole bunch of boys and girls sleep together? how romantic.
21:51:08 <fizzie> Uh.
21:51:28 <oerjan> fungot: i don't think fizzie wants you to know about such stuff
21:51:28 <fungot> oerjan: guile was my first
21:52:30 <FireFly> Well well
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22:25:07 <oren> guile from street fighter? i mean, beauty is subjective, but still... i don't see it.
22:28:37 * oerjan keeps seeing webcomics mentioning TCAF is this weekend so points oren at it
22:32:07 <shachaf> terminal constant applicative form?
22:32:30 <oerjan> toronto comic arts festival
22:33:00 <oerjan> also is that a term, i know what a CAF is, sort of
22:33:03 <zzo38> Now I wrote document of xurn:pokemon: URI scheme
22:33:11 <shachaf> no i made it up hth
22:33:15 <oerjan> darn
22:33:47 <shachaf> a caf is a young cow
22:33:58 <shachaf> or a young scow?
22:34:14 <oerjan> if you don't haf a better pun than that...
22:34:36 <oren> there seem to be many words with silent l
22:35:15 <oerjan> could be
22:35:17 <oren> calf half should
22:35:49 <oren> would could
22:41:28 <shachaf> golf
22:44:05 <shachaf> salmon yolk walk talk milk calm
22:44:32 <oerjan> l in milk is silent?
22:45:15 <shachaf> it's the same as golf hth
22:45:37 <oerjan> i have doubts about golf too
22:46:31 <oren> milk definitely has a l when I say it
22:46:40 <shachaf> pillow
22:46:52 <shachaf> colonel
22:47:13 <oren> pillow has at least one l when I say it
22:47:18 * oerjan swalts shachaf -----###
22:48:18 <shachaf> this doesn't work very well on irc where people can just look things up
22:48:31 <FireFly> I didn't realise 'calf' has a silent l.. I don't think I've ever really pronounced it
22:48:46 <shachaf> but a game i play is using nonsense words in a conversation with a non-native speaker
22:49:00 <shachaf> and hoping they figure them out from context and add them to their lexicon
22:49:11 <FireFly> you are evil tdnh
22:49:43 <shachaf> actually i've only done that with "scow" and a few words like that
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23:02:02 <oren> Although, some words I pronounced weirdly when I was qa kid. Psychic had a ps in it for example. (I knew that word from pokemon) I also sometimes still say write different from right
23:03:05 <oren> psai-tshik
23:03:52 <oren> I really need to learn IPA
23:05:41 <oerjan> psick pronunciation
23:06:55 <oren> It's kinda hard to explain how write differs. it sort of had a short u at the start before th r
23:07:29 <oren> the vowel from book
23:07:42 <FireFly> I pronounced the p in psychic as well initially
23:08:06 <FireFly> also due to pokemon
23:08:55 <oren> I think all my friends did too, so it was a feature of the schoolboy-dialect
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