00:11:06 <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ i can't even into first isomorphism theorem
00:11:47 <oerjan> or grammar.
00:15:25 <orin> gramer is teh suxxors
00:18:26 -!- aretecode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:20:20 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, OK fuck's sake
00:20:40 <Phantom_Hoover> is (x^2+1) prime in Z[x] or not?
00:20:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oh right, yeah it is
00:22:05 * oerjan vaguely recalls some rule...
00:22:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I is prime iff R/I is a domain
00:23:15 <Phantom_Hoover> p. obvious when you actually think about it but i've just been frantically copying theorems to force myself to read them
00:23:26 <oerjan> oh wait ideals argh
00:26:23 <orin> HOLY CRAP
00:26:33 <orin> Tomorrow is my birthday!
00:26:57 <orin> I forgot and no-one said anything
00:27:09 <Phantom_Hoover> what's confused and continues to trouble me is that i thought the prime ideals of Z[x,y] were all of the form (x-a,y-b) and i now have no idea what their significance actually is
00:27:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ah, they're maximal
00:28:02 <oerjan> perhaps if you replace Z by a field
00:36:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Gibberish/JavaScript]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42828&oldid=42819 * Esowiki201529A * (-42) Blanked the page
00:57:13 <FreeFull> orin: That could have been "Yesterday was my birthday!"
00:59:21 -!- hilquias has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:00:27 -!- hilquias has joined.
01:34:15 -!- adu has joined.
02:29:36 -!- hilquias has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:41:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:43:25 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
02:46:14 -!- rodgort has joined.
02:52:50 -!- hjulle has joined.
02:57:30 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
03:05:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
03:11:11 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
03:41:53 -!- Decim has joined.
03:42:03 <Decim> @bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++<<<-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++>>>-----.--.++++++++++.------.
03:42:03 <lambdabot>   cake
03:42:06 <Decim> Yes
03:42:22 <Decim> Finally I have made lambdabot say cake
03:42:24 <Decim> Muahah
03:50:01 -!- ckard has joined.
04:00:00 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:00:49 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
04:01:32 <zzo38> The iron in two cards would have different position/momentum/configuration/etc so if you just switched all iron from one car with another instantaneously somehow, I think it would be explosive? Even if not, aren't the fermions anticommutative, and can the state have different quantum entanglement?
04:26:28 <zzo38> I think ICAO codes are much better than IATA codes isn't it? They should change all of their systems into ICAO codes
04:35:25 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)).
04:56:07 -!- Decim has changed nick to Zelecra.
05:34:14 <zzo38> This is messy http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stapler
05:44:16 <zzo38> Is some other people on today too?
05:51:58 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
05:52:03 -!- ckard has quit.
05:52:10 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services).
05:52:10 -!- Patashu_ has joined.
06:15:00 -!- adu has joined.
06:15:14 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit).
06:31:34 -!- Zelecra has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:54:37 * izabera throws a pie to zzo38
07:14:31 -!- teakey has joined.
07:29:52 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
07:32:47 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:46:31 -!- teakey has joined.
07:49:05 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:55:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Orenwatson]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42829&oldid=42124 * 123.113.125.251 * (+0) 
08:02:23 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:13:18 -!- teakey has quit (Quit: Leaving).
08:21:38 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
08:52:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, now
08:53:09 <b_jonas> hello
09:10:16 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
09:13:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
09:18:57 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:38:04 -!- zadock has joined.
09:38:22 -!- Tritonio has joined.
09:39:44 -!- ineiros has joined.
09:49:15 <mroman> hello
09:49:20 <mroman> fungot: hi
09:49:20 <fungot> mroman: it's used in one of the last
09:54:23 <olsner> one of the last what, fungot?
09:54:24 <fungot> olsner: i don't think it's a bad title initself, could be easily ported, though :) i'd like a fnord
09:56:29 <mroman> we'd all like a fnord.
10:03:26 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:04:38 -!- Tritonio has joined.
10:05:49 -!- impomatic_ has changed nick to impomatic.
10:13:26 -!- MoALTz has joined.
10:26:38 -!- Patashu has joined.
10:52:18 <izabera> `` echo $PATH
10:52:22 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
10:53:01 <izabera> `` echo echo code injection > /bin/0; chmod +x /bin/0; echo x | mapfile -c1 -C ''
10:53:09 <HackEgo> bash: /bin/0: Read-only file system \ chmod: cannot access `/bin/0': No such file or directory \ bash: line 1: 0: command not found
10:53:14 <izabera> fuck
10:53:26 <izabera> `` echo echo code injection > 0; chmod +x 0; PATH=.; echo x | mapfile -c1 -C ''
10:53:34 <HackEgo> code injection
10:57:17 <int-e> `` pwd
10:57:18 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv
10:59:36 <int-e> `` echo x | mapfile -c1 -C echo
10:59:37 <HackEgo> 0 x
11:04:04 -!- nszceta has joined.
11:04:08 <mroman> fungot: What would you do with a fnord?
11:04:08 <fungot> mroman: don't assume stupidity, do like me and can't be bothered tracking back to find fnord
11:04:20 <mroman> Well I like you.
11:04:38 <int-e> wow
11:05:03 <int-e> admonished by fungot.
11:05:03 <fungot> int-e: filter bj ( class bjblaz)... view bj....! does it return f
11:05:20 <int-e> fungot: no it does not
11:05:20 <fungot> int-e: you have to access locals, and there arrives an infinite number of ways to emulate functions ( but not their values) and defines its methods.
11:28:50 <mroman> wtf
11:29:25 <mroman> parasites that infect snails, control their brain to make them crawl to open spaces so they can be eaten by birds
11:29:41 <mroman> which is the goal of those parasites so they can infect the bird
11:29:47 <mroman> that's creppy
11:29:57 <mroman> fungot: are you a cordycep?
11:29:57 <fungot> mroman: sigh. so if you collect everything into a string? for example,
11:30:20 <mroman> fungot is a fungi that infects IRC users and takes over their minds.
11:30:21 <fungot> mroman: if working by hand, just returns the constant. besides, those take awfully long time to start solving this problem
11:30:31 <olsner> parasites that control behavior are awesome
11:31:04 <mroman> from an evolutionary standpoint yes
11:31:10 <mroman> they essentially hack other species
11:31:58 <mroman> I'm pretty certain there are parasites than can do that to humans
11:32:07 <mroman> but probably not so sophisticated as for insects
11:34:01 <mroman> There's rabies
11:34:05 <mroman> which causes hydrophobie
11:34:09 <mroman> *hydrophobia
11:34:37 <mroman> which means it affects behaviours of humans
11:34:42 <mroman> *effects
11:34:58 <mroman> but that's a virus, not a parasite
11:35:04 <olsner> my impression is that we overestimate how complicated these behaviors are, and how hard it is to modify them
11:36:25 <olsner> apparently rabies causes excessive salivation and pain on swallowing, and that causes the hydrophobia
11:36:26 <b_jonas> duh. most parasite can modify your behavior. some fungus infections cause you to itch and scratch, so you spread them further on your skin.
11:37:09 <b_jonas> some other infections cause you to have high fever and take days off work and stay home in bed.
11:38:35 <mroman> toxoplasma gondii apparentely alters rats brains 
11:39:02 <mroman> or some chemistry in it
11:39:39 <mroman> and there's some correlation between toxo and schizophrenia
11:39:50 <mroman> but that's just a correlation as of current research
11:41:36 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving).
11:45:03 -!- hjulle has joined.
11:45:27 <mroman> "For example, previous estimates have shown the highest prevalence of persons infected with T. gondii to be in France, at 84%"
11:45:35 <mroman> that certainly seems to get creepy
11:47:22 <mroman> "We found that among all patients the additional diagnosis of a personality disorder was significantly associated with TG infection."
11:50:20 <mroman> "In particular, T. gondii seroprevalence has been associated with suicide."
11:52:42 <mroman> and they seem to infect amygdalas more than other brain regions
11:52:54 <mroman> that makes sense since a lot of personality disorders are linked to amygdala abnormalities
11:54:53 <b_jonas> mroman: sure, but you also have to consider that a lot of those research is nonsense. they're invented deliberatey by people who want to prove that certain people are wrong and have a behaviour disorder that have to be cured.
11:55:44 <mroman> Personality disorders are very subjective yes.
11:55:54 <b_jonas> because, like, it's easier to convince a parent that they should give medicine to their child for their alleged behaviour disorders if they show laboratory tests with numbers circled on them to show that their child is wrong.
11:55:58 <mroman> but Schizophrenia shouldn't be hard to correctly diagnose
11:56:09 <int-e> I hope you're not practicing light dinner conversation
11:56:15 <izabera> :D
11:57:13 <mroman> b_jonas: According to recommendations PDs shouldn't be diagnosed pre-adulthood
11:57:18 <b_jonas> int-e: do you know how some people running European countries, and schools in particular, are trying very hard to steal all bad ideas from America and their school system? 
11:57:49 <mroman> but that of course doesn't count for other disorders such as BP and BP-subtypes, mood orders in general
11:57:56 <b_jonas> it's not easy, because there's so many differences, but they're trying.
11:57:59 <mroman> schizophrenia, ocd, schizoaffective and the like
11:58:12 <mroman> *mood disorders
11:58:19 <elliott> I believe that schizophrenia is often diagnosed as autism in childhood, since they present similarly before adulthood?
11:58:46 <b_jonas> mroman: the same thing can apply to adults too, where it affects fewer people but probably more dangerous for them
11:58:51 <mroman> elliott: they are overlapping yes
11:58:58 <mroman> but I think autism doesn't have positive symptoms
11:59:18 <mroman> but schizophrenia doesn't neccessarily have to come with positive symptoms
11:59:25 <elliott> right, not in the schizophrenia sense per se. though it is more than just the negative symptoms of schizophrenia, of course
11:59:35 <elliott> but schizophrenia's positive symptoms don't usually show up until adulthood, afaik
11:59:47 <mroman> also manic states can have positive symptoms that resemble schizophrenia
11:59:58 <mroman> and then there's schizoaffective and schizotypal
11:59:59 <b_jonas> um, what does “positive symptom” mean?
12:00:00 <mroman> and schizoid
12:00:09 <mroman> b_jonas: hallucinations and the like
12:00:17 <b_jonas> I don't know much about psychiatry, luckily
12:00:24 <mroman> things that aren't there
12:00:39 <b_jonas> I see
12:00:41 <mroman> positive symptoms is roughly "stuff that is added" and negative symptoms is "stuff that is taken away"
12:00:45 <mroman> like reduced affect
12:00:46 <mroman> that's a negative symptom
12:01:17 <mroman> also there's paranoid schizophrenia, disorganized schizophrenia, schizophrenia simplex
12:01:33 <mroman> It's a big ugly mess with these disorders
12:01:50 <mroman> which is why you can constantly argue that some disorders don't exist or some disorders are actually the same disorder
12:02:11 <b_jonas> yeah, it's a mess
12:02:36 <mroman> or whether something attributed as a criteria to some disorder is actually another disorder
12:02:39 <mroman> like self-injury
12:02:42 <orin> the most bullshit disorder is ODD (oppositional defiant disorder) which is just a doctor's long ass way to say your kid is too stubborn
12:03:08 <orin> and won't listen to his teachers
12:03:19 <mroman> you can argue that self-injury behaviour is a separate disorder
12:03:56 <mroman> i.e. the DSM only lists SI as a symptom of BPD where it is already known that other disorders present with SI as well
12:04:06 <elliott> diagnoses are more subjective overlapping clusters of criteria than any true reflection of inherent structures of minds, and a lot of what constitutes a pathologised diagnosis vs. normal variation is very much socially driven.
12:04:30 <b_jonas> elliott: hehe, nice hard to understand sentence. but true.
12:04:30 <elliott> (this should not be interpreted as a rant against claimed over-diagnosis or the use of psychiatric medication.)
12:04:42 <int-e> b_jonas: That's a better topic indeed :D But I'm not in the mood. (I also would have to google which Bertelsmann subsidaries I'm particularly pissed at :P)
12:04:49 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined.
12:05:02 <elliott> b_jonas: *shrugs* it's the words that came out of my head in the order they came out
12:05:22 <elliott> I suppose I type on the pretentious side of things sometimes...
12:05:33 <int-e> And how to spell "subsidiaries".
12:05:45 <mroman> also why's ODD not a PD?
12:06:36 <mroman> ODD sounds very ego-syntonic
12:07:18 <b_jonas> what does "ego-syntonic" mean?
12:07:22 <b_jonas> is it a kind of drink?
12:07:25 <mroman> no
12:07:49 <mroman> it means it is in harmony with your ego/personality
12:07:57 <mroman> meaning: You are not aware you have a PD
12:08:14 <mroman> because your behaviours (that are wrong to others) aren't wrong to yourself
12:08:26 <orin> Well my teachers claimed I had ODD, but that stopped when my parents stopped spoiling me so much
12:08:32 <mroman> OCD for example is ego-dystonic
12:08:49 <mroman> since sufferers are aware of it and that it's "unreasonable"
12:08:59 <orin> Ah.
12:09:01 <mroman> OCPD (which is not the same as OCD) is ego-syntonic
12:09:11 <b_jonas> hmm
12:09:16 <b_jonas> ok
12:09:27 <mroman> mainly because the obsessive/compulsive part of OCPD is part of the personality itself
12:10:00 <b_jonas> ( #esoteric is a strange channel)
12:10:01 <idris-bot> (input):1:1: error: expected: ":",
12:10:01 <idris-bot>     dependent type signature,
12:10:01 <idris-bot>     end of input
12:10:01 <idris-bot> #esoteric is a strange channel)<EOF> 
12:10:01 <idris-bot> ^                                    
12:10:02 <mroman> the thing is that we humans specify what is a disorder and what not ;)
12:10:13 <mroman> and it depends on culture.
12:10:22 <orin> So OCPD is a doctor's long way of saying "too anal"?
12:10:23 <b_jonas> mroman: yep
12:10:28 <mroman> being afraid of aliens is a disorder
12:10:33 <mroman> being afraid of the devil is not
12:10:37 <mroman> see the difference there?
12:10:46 <elliott> (indeed, largely those who do not meet the diagnostic criteria of more or less any disorder specify what a disorder is.)
12:10:52 <int-e> mroman: I don't.
12:11:27 <Jafet> The devil has a much chance of existing than aliens, mroman
12:11:27 <mroman> lots of PDs are underdiagnosed
12:11:31 <int-e> mroman: perhaps more to the point, what if the person is an Atheist? Or a scientologist?
12:11:49 <mroman> because given the right circumstances and the right people around a person with a PD the PD might not show up
12:12:10 <orin> related: http://funnyexam.com/answers/54514
12:12:12 <mroman> if you constantly provide narcissistic supply for an NPD he won't have any problems with it.
12:12:58 <mroman> int-e: I think atheism is accepted
12:13:02 <mroman> and not listed as a disorder
12:13:06 <mroman> unlike fetishism
12:13:09 <mroman> which is a disorder
12:13:12 <Jafet> (related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Christs_of_Ypsilanti)
12:13:34 <int-e> mroman: No, I meant, what if the person who's afraid of the devil is an Atheist, or the one being afraid of aliens is a Scientologist?
12:13:35 <mroman> and ego-dystonic homosexuality 
12:13:37 <mroman> and HSDD
12:13:39 <mroman> and... many more
12:13:57 <mroman> int-e: ow. That would be weird :)
12:13:59 <mroman> well
12:14:01 <mroman> or not
12:14:06 <mroman> atheists don't believe in god?
12:14:12 <mroman> does that mean they don't believe in the devil as well?
12:14:49 <orin> right
12:14:56 <mroman> HSDD is probably mostly a disorder because people expect you to have sex
12:15:02 <int-e> I'd expect they don't believe in supernatural entities at all, normally.
12:15:06 <mroman> well
12:15:16 <mroman> Does the flying spaghetti monster count as supernatural?
12:15:27 <int-e> Anyway, musing, I don't expect an answer.
12:15:29 <orin> er, i guess usually? It doesn't really make sense for the Devil to exist with no god opposing him
12:16:52 <int-e> If you believe in the FSM, you're not an Atheist in my view (wow, I must be an atheist fanatist). If you use it for making a point that believing in the FSM is just as sensible as believing in another God, you still might be.
12:17:06 <mroman> no.
12:17:10 <mroman> the FSM doesn't have a good history
12:17:12 <mroman> I mean
12:17:17 <mroman> no ancient texts have been found
12:17:22 <int-e> who cares!
12:17:24 <mroman> as for the bible
12:17:29 <mroman> you can trace it back thousands of years!
12:17:35 <mroman> that must make it truer than FSM
12:17:50 <mroman> also
12:17:54 <orin> Well some parts are known to be true, 
12:17:55 <mroman> no wars have been fought for FSM yet
12:18:00 <b_jonas> mroman: that's a temporary situation. in a thousand more years, the difference will no longer be significant
12:18:06 <int-e> they were written on lasagna plates; turns out stone plates, pergament and paper are more durable ;)
12:18:07 <mroman> so that indicates people believing in the FSM aren't very serious about it
12:18:18 <b_jonas> mroman: well duh, that's because the FSM would really rather you don't fight wars for him
12:18:40 <mroman> I don't take religions without religious wars serious
12:18:46 <mroman> lack of dedication
12:19:03 <mroman> lack of craziness
12:19:12 <orin> Also~, lack of death threats forcing anyone to take it seriously
12:19:16 <b_jonas> what? not crazy enough?
12:19:30 <b_jonas> orin: same thing. the FSM would rather you not do that.
12:19:32 <mroman> well
12:19:40 <int-e> I like the IPU better anyway.
12:19:44 <mroman> who is more "serious" about his religion
12:19:45 * elliott considers the flamebait of positing that many atheists beleve in supernatural entities without admitting it, and decides that sleep and a meta message is the superior option.
12:19:54 <mroman> one who kills other people for it or one who doesn't?
12:20:08 <nvd> mroman, how does HSDD differ from, like, asexuality?
12:20:31 <mroman> nvd: If you are not distressed then it's asexuality
12:20:34 <mroman> otherwise it's HSDD
12:20:44 <mroman> meaning "I have no desire for sex and that depresses me" -> HSDD
12:20:54 <mroman> "I have no desire for sex and I'm cool with it" -> asexuality
12:21:14 <nvd> That seems...
12:21:15 <elliott> well, it also had "I am gay and that distresses me" in before it was removed for being homophobic, too.
12:21:15 <int-e> elliott: where do you draw the line? I do curse inanimate objects a lot :P
12:21:15 <nvd> Off
12:21:30 <mroman> "I'm gay and that distresses me" is ego-dystonic homosexuality
12:21:32 <mroman> which is a disorder
12:21:45 <mroman> according the clinicians.
12:21:54 <elliott> the question, of course, is how much the diagnoses actually corresponded to personal distress of the diagnosed, and also, how much of that distress was internal as opposed to a side-effect of societal homophobia. hence its removal.
12:22:05 <int-e> Ah. http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Anoia :)
12:22:25 <nvd> What about "I have no desire for sex and the pressure I receive sex makes me feel like I have something wrong with me and that depresses me"
12:22:27 <mroman> nvd: the criteria for HSDD includes "must cause marked distress and interpersonal difficulties"
12:22:33 <elliott> mroman: not in the DSM, at least?
12:22:34 <elliott> "HSDD has garnered much criticism, primarily by asexual activists. They point out that HSDD puts asexuality in the same position homosexuality was from 1974-1987. Back then, the DSM recognised 'ego-dystonic homosexuality' as a disorder, defined as having sexual interest in the same sex and it causing distress. Despite the DSM itself officially recognizing this as unnecessarily pathologizing homosexuality
12:22:40 <elliott>  and removing it as a disorder in 1987,[5]"
12:22:47 <mroman> elliott: ICD still has it I think
12:22:51 <elliott> ok
12:23:02 <mroman> it's also funny ICD vs. DSM
12:23:13 <mroman> having disorders in the DSM not in the ICD and vice-versa
12:23:18 <elliott> well, pathologising the attraction along with the associated distress is not necessarily politically neutral.
12:23:21 <mroman> and having different criterias for disorders.
12:23:49 <mroman> but technically if you're asexual and a clinicians diagnoses you with HSDD you have HSDD
12:23:50 <orin> Once I heard a story where God likes atheist activists, because at least they actively think of Him all the time.
12:24:13 <mroman> for paper matters at least
12:24:34 <elliott> also, the criteria for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_sexual_arousal_disorder do _not_ include associated personal distress
12:24:44 <mroman> obviously
12:24:51 <elliott> you may reflect on the implications of the gender-specificity of that diagnosis
12:25:02 <mroman> if a female doesn't want sex there must be something wrong
12:25:08 <mroman> no matter if she feels distressed by it or not
12:25:12 <mroman> because the male wants sex
12:25:17 <mroman> and most clinicians are probably male
12:25:19 <b_jonas> orin: I think Smullyan mentions the idea that maybe God likes atheists because they don't believe in things they can't prove
12:25:43 <mroman> oh wait
12:25:47 <mroman> that's an arousal disorder
12:25:49 <mroman> that's something else
12:25:54 <mroman> asexuality isn't an arousal disorder
12:26:08 <mroman> arousal != desired
12:26:12 <mroman> *arousal != desire
12:26:30 <mroman> arousal is a "physical reaction"
12:26:41 <mroman> if you lack a physical reaction you're supposed to have it's a disorder
12:26:45 <nvd> I can tell you from personal experience that they are different
12:27:08 <elliott> mroman: look at the DSM-5 criteria.
12:27:09 <mroman> asexuals don't generally have problems with arousal
12:27:12 <elliott> "Absent/reduced interest in sexual activity"
12:27:12 <orin> Well it was beacuse a lot of people, even people who are nominally religious, never really think about god
12:27:12 <mroman> just a lack of desire
12:27:19 <elliott> it's clearly not solely about arousal in that sense
12:27:35 <mroman> oh it includes "interest"
12:27:45 <elliott> and even "Absent/reduced sexual/erotic thoughts or fantasies"
12:27:52 <elliott> in fact I find the DSM-IV criteria *less* objectionable!
12:28:11 <mroman> is there a male arousal disorder?
12:28:16 <mroman> probably not
12:28:21 <mroman> that would probably be called impotence?
12:28:25 <b_jonas> what have I sparked
12:28:29 <orin> Uh... yeah. 
12:28:54 <mroman> b_jonas: you know what you were getting yourself into
12:28:57 <mroman> hm
12:28:59 <mroman> *you knew
12:29:06 <b_jonas> yes, I know
12:29:09 <orin> U NEW
12:29:10 <elliott> mroman: well, there's erectile dysfunction
12:29:14 <mroman> I have a certain reputation to pick up on these kind of conversations.
12:29:25 <elliott> rather dissimilar criteria from the DSM-5 one I linked, presumably
12:30:16 <b_jonas> and this is with certain channel regulars absent because week-end
12:30:23 <mroman> "The term is often used in the diagnosis of women (female sexual arousal disorder), while the term erectile dysfunction (ED) is often used for men."
12:30:56 <mroman> b_jonas: In other words: Science is fun :p
12:31:06 <mroman> even if it's mostly pseudo-science
12:31:09 <mroman> but it's still science
12:31:32 <mroman> pseudo-science is probably even more fun than the old school regular science
12:31:36 <b_jonas> sometimes it's not fun, but still useful
12:33:10 <mroman> nvd: btw. there are also clinicians who say "asexuality == depressed"
12:33:19 <mroman> because "lack of libido is a hallmark sign of depression"
12:33:37 <nvd> -_-
12:33:52 -!- boily has joined.
12:34:08 <nvd> I am fairly sure I am not depressed
12:34:14 <b_jonas> Oh, on how it's subjective what counts as a disorder, this strip is slightly related: http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1995#comic
12:34:31 <mroman> nvd: I'm fairly sure I am not constantly depressed
12:35:11 <mroman> 1200$ spending sprees isn't really a symptom of depression I guess
12:35:15 <elliott> that comic only makes sense if you actually believe everyone can walk
12:35:25 <elliott> which... god news for you there
12:35:27 <elliott> *got
12:35:45 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
12:36:27 <mroman> unless you have some sort of disease affecting muscels
12:36:33 <mroman> or muscle control
12:37:37 <mroman> or!
12:38:09 <mroman> osteomalacia
12:38:17 <mroman> which makes your bones so week they bend
12:38:20 <mroman> *weak
12:38:52 <b_jonas> no, I don't believe everyone can walk. I only believe that most people can walk.
12:39:17 <b_jonas> I know there are many that can't, because of various defects or injuries or accidents
12:39:22 <mroman> "healthy people"?
12:40:55 <elliott> and how do you define healthy? :)
12:40:57 <mroman> Mental disorders depend on what is expected and accepted. And there really isn't any other way of running it
12:41:01 <Jafet> The Hark-a-vagrant version of that comic would be "You'd better start walking right now, or that surgeon there is going to diagnose you with polio."
12:41:03 -!- nszceta has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com).
12:41:08 * elliott decides that's enough wood on the fire, and actually goes to sleep.
12:41:12 <mroman> :)
12:41:29 <mroman> I should get back into researching T.gondii
12:41:43 <mroman> or toxoplasmosis
12:42:01 <b_jonas> Jafet: not polio. polio is like http://www.xkcd.com/1520/
12:43:04 <mroman> I'm gonna diagnose him with Isaacs Syndrome
12:43:17 <b_jonas> what's that?
12:44:12 <mroman> some nerve hyperexcitability
12:44:37 <mroman> causes cramps, twitching, stiffness etc.
12:46:16 <mroman> looks like an exclusion diagnosis
12:48:55 <mroman> Being lately reading lots of medicine books and articles my respect for doctors is growing
12:50:10 -!- teakey has joined.
12:50:14 <mroman> And I wonder if GPs even know about these rare conditions
12:50:16 <mroman> probably not
12:50:21 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:14:47 -!- zadock has joined.
13:22:59 -!- tromp_ has joined.
13:42:00 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
13:44:50 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:52:38 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
13:52:39 <oerjan> <zzo38> I think ICAO codes are much better than IATA codes isn't it? They should change all of their systems into ICAO codes <-- the problem is that ICAO codes are incomprehensible to non-nerds hth
13:53:53 <oerjan> ("ENGM"? wtf is that? "OSL"? oh of course that's oslo)
14:01:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
14:02:02 <boily> YUL. obviously it's YULontréal.
14:02:10 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
14:02:10 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
14:02:56 <oerjan> ok so northern americans managed to mess up IATA too, no surprise there.
14:03:06 <izabera> i thought i was a nerd but i never heard of icao codes
14:03:09 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
14:03:18 * izabera totally non nerd
14:03:26 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
14:03:26 <lambdabot> ENVA 101350Z 29013KT 9999 FEW045TCU SCT050 10/M00 Q1017 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 30013KT
14:04:02 <boily> izabera: being a nerd is good. embrace you inner geek. exchange with fungot.
14:04:02 <fungot> boily: maybe next year, as they become necessary in your games
14:04:07 <boily> @metar CYUL
14:04:07 <lambdabot> CYUL 101300Z 22010KT 15SM FEW020 FEW080 SCT110 SCT180 22/17 A3003 RMK CU1ACC1AC3AC1 CU TR ACC TR SLP169 DENSITY ALT 700FT
14:04:16 <izabera> what is @metar ?
14:04:22 <oerjan> @help metar
14:04:22 <lambdabot> metar <ICAO airport code>
14:04:22 <lambdabot> Look up METAR weather data for given airport.
14:04:40 <izabera> and why are you doing it?
14:04:43 <izabera> looks totally useless
14:04:49 <boily> contrariwise!
14:05:02 <boily> detailed weather information is of utmost importance.
14:05:04 <oerjan> izabera: it's the nerd equivalent of talking about the weather, of course
14:05:13 <izabera> ok, looks 97% useless
14:05:14 <oerjan> except we naturally optimize it
14:05:26 <boily> also, it proves it's warmer here than at oerjan's :D
14:06:04 <boily> (and stormy weather here. CU1ACC1AC3AC1 CU TR ACC TR...)
14:06:30 <izabera> @metar LIMF
14:06:32 <lambdabot> LIMF 101350Z 02003KT 310V090 CAVOK 25/10 Q1023
14:06:36 <izabera> is that good?
14:06:45 <izabera> i can't read that output
14:07:06 <oerjan> the important part is the 25/ hth
14:07:15 <izabera> please explain
14:07:23 <oerjan> that's temperature in celsius
14:07:40 <b_jonas> LIMF is the location, 101350Z is the time of the measurement
14:07:49 <izabera> LIMF is close to me
14:07:53 -!- GeekDude has joined.
14:08:06 <izabera> 101350Z == ?
14:08:48 <oerjan> 10th, 13:50 UTC
14:09:02 <izabera> 10th what?
14:09:08 <oerjan> current month
14:09:08 <izabera> oh may
14:09:30 <izabera> ok what about the rest?
14:09:40 <izabera> what should i google to know more?
14:10:14 <oerjan> /10 is dew point, temperature at which dew forms, says something about dryness
14:10:28 <oerjan> for the rest i defer to boily 
14:10:49 <b_jonas> is 1023 the air pressure?
14:11:15 <oerjan> izabera: metar, probably
14:11:34 <izabera> makes sense
14:11:53 <oerjan> some of the websites explain the codes iirc
14:11:59 <izabera> ok now i know all about it
14:12:05 <izabera> 96% useless
14:12:08 <oerjan> you read fast
14:12:18 <izabera> i type fast too
14:12:19 <oerjan> BUT THE 4% IS ESSENTIAL
14:12:22 <b_jonas> which part is the wind?
14:14:18 <oerjan> the 003KT part, i think
14:14:52 <b_jonas> also which part is the air pressure history?
14:15:19 <oerjan> air pressure is the Q part
14:15:35 <oerjan> see here http://en.allmetsat.com/metar-taf/norway-sweden-finland.php?icao=ENVA
14:15:41 -!- perrier has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:18:13 <oerjan> the "Current weather observation" is a breakup
14:18:37 -!- perrier has joined.
14:30:04 <oerjan> <Jafet> The devil has a much chance of existing than aliens, mroman <-- i think someone snipped your comparative, although whether it was the devil or aliens i'm not sure until you tell what it should have been hth
14:31:58 <boily> fungot: do you exist, and if so, are you the Devil or an alien?
14:31:58 <fungot> boily: i started that practice after accidentally typing rm one time too often, so they can release it at the head
14:32:05 <boily> the Devil it is.
14:32:30 <int-e> I swear fungot is getting more coherent every day
14:32:30 <fungot> int-e: so how do i dump and load images? cool. what's the tz diff between roc and jp? i'm guessing you don't have uniform representation can't be totally hidden
14:33:04 <int-e> well, there's still some room for improvement :)
14:33:29 <b_jonas> int-e: I think he's quoting me there
14:33:41 <izabera> fungot
14:33:41 <fungot> izabera: thr r6rs-discuss alias is quiet... too quiet." " fnord" a bit with smalltalk and wanted to go to class with like 2-3 hours of sleep have you had
14:33:52 <orin> @metar CYYZ
14:33:53 <lambdabot> CYYZ 101400Z 36008KT 12SM OVC075 19/16 A3010 RMK AC8 SLP191 DENSITY ALT 900FT
14:33:53 <olsner> fungot: do you or the devil have a much chance of existing?
14:33:53 <fungot> olsner: whether the code has nothing to do with what we know now. three done.)
14:33:56 <b_jonas> fungot, do you and Santa Claus both exist?
14:33:56 <fungot> b_jonas: or i could be wrong, but sarahbot is speaking tongue-in-cheek, of course. in my particular case i'm thinking specifically of chicken, so i was a sex-starved manicurist found dead in the bronx!! i want my byte-vectors and string to be a
14:33:57 <oerjan> int-e: no he just wants you to help with his media interaction
14:34:20 <olsner> int-e: it could be that the rest of the world is just getting less coherent
14:34:46 <b_jonas> fungot: is the rest of the world getting less coherent?
14:34:46 <fungot> b_jonas: http://rafb.net/ fnord impromptu play! i'll get right on implementing it. it's built into the interpreter
14:34:48 <oerjan> i'm with olsner 
14:35:06 <int-e> oerjan: the problem is just, I'm pretty sure that fizzie has not retrained any of the language models...
14:35:09 <orin> Well yeah, law of thermodynamics, I forget which one
14:35:30 <b_jonas> int-e: I think the mode that quotes irc continuously uses new sentences
14:35:34 <b_jonas> like,
14:35:44 <olsner> orin: the one about fungot and coherence? that'd be the fnordth law
14:35:44 <fungot> olsner: c would basically work on everything tex works now.) what time is it
14:36:03 <b_jonas> y0KXJGaiquc5M8Iqf oCsSgFRCedys9kQsq9gzZA
14:36:09 <b_jonas> fungot: y0KXJGaiquc5M8Iqf
14:36:09 <fungot> b_jonas: don't think so. if the binary distribution runs from /bin /lib and /include and /bin
14:36:11 <int-e> fizzie: you could solve this mystery, do you have some sort of cron job that updates the IRC model?
14:36:15 <b_jonas> hmm
14:36:26 <boily> I wonder if fungot will ever become a CHICKEN practicioner.
14:36:26 <fungot> boily: do you suppose ebcdic mappings would be a little bit like scythe... i am
14:36:40 <int-e> b_jonas: I've heard that it's not even context sensitive.
14:36:41 <b_jonas> which model is he using now?
14:36:58 <b_jonas> int-e: maybe I was dreaming?
14:36:59 <b_jonas> ^model
14:37:04 <int-e> b_jonas: so it's all our brains fooling ourselves (or at least my brain fooling itself)
14:37:04 <b_jonas> um
14:37:05 <b_jonas> ^dict
14:37:16 <b_jonas> ^corpus
14:37:22 <b_jonas> ^vocabulary
14:37:27 <b_jonas> ^markov
14:37:32 <b_jonas> ^help
14:37:32 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
14:37:38 <b_jonas> ^style
14:37:39 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:37:43 <b_jonas> hmm
14:37:44 <b_jonas> dunno
14:37:56 <b_jonas> maybe it was some other bot?
14:38:46 <orin> I should make a bot that uses a markov chain to imitate particular people
14:39:11 <orin> Then when they're not online, we can still act like they are
14:39:47 -!- int-e has left ("MARKOV CHICKEN CHICKEN CHICKEN CHICKEN").
14:39:47 -!- int-e has joined.
14:42:02 <oerjan> int-e: fungot needs no updating he learns through synchronicity hth
14:42:03 <fungot> oerjan: wow.....you are very polite. umm......do you like the weather in atlanta? you seem uncertain. do not use notepad for small things
14:42:30 <oerjan> fungot: i don't use notepad for pretty much anything
14:42:31 <fungot> oerjan: news to me that postfix fits to standard english usage better than scheme.
14:43:33 <oerjan> fungot: well postfix doesn't fit scheme at _all_, so...
14:43:33 <fungot> oerjan: i've gotten to the metacircular evaluation chapter? for as much as any other variable in plof... my english is bad for you. :)
14:43:34 <int-e> fungot: well, standard scheme doesn't transport email nearly as well as postfix does
14:43:34 <fungot> int-e: csc mailbox.scm -o3 -fv -lambda-lift -unsafe-libraries -d0 -b/ usr/ src/ fnord fnord fnord
14:44:09 <oerjan> plof, now that's ancient
14:44:34 -!- int-e has set topic: <fungot> oerjan: i've gotten to the metacircular evaluation chapter? | Vǫwël Cøntınùům | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
14:44:52 <oerjan> from the time when Gregor actually had time to esolang
14:45:06 <oerjan> well except plof wasn't an esolang.  but still.
14:46:28 <int-e> "my english is bad for you. :)" <-- finally fungоt admits the inconvenient truth.
14:47:17 -!- Tritonio has joined.
14:47:39 <orin> Is there a formula for how many symbols in base b can store N symbols in another base d?
14:48:16 <orin> I think it must use logarithm...
14:48:35 <int-e> d^N <= b^M
14:49:37 <orin> Oh, yeah. So I take the log(b,d^N) and round up.
14:50:46 <orin> I'm making a convertor back from binary to CSV
14:51:10 <orin> My program produces results as binary but I can't read binary
14:51:50 <int-e> oerjan: oh I saw a cute problem on ##math: show that A_n = sum_{i=1}^n sin(n)sin(n^2) is bounded.
14:52:01 <int-e> err
14:52:08 <int-e> sin(i)sin(i^2)  under the sum.
14:55:04 <oerjan> eep
14:56:13 <orin> Lesee... sin(i) and sin(i^2) have the same sign if (i^2-i)/(PI/2) is near an  odd number, opposite if it is near a even number
14:57:06 <orin> and typically it will have magnitude < 1
14:57:27 <orin> Actually, always.
14:58:06 <oerjan> oh bounded, not converging. hm.
14:59:12 <orin> yeah. |sin(i)| is <1 for all integers
14:59:36 <oerjan> well that much is obvious and doesn't immediately help.
15:00:23 <orin> Wait.  Oh... we need to prove there are roughly equal numbers of positive and negative and their magnitudes are on avergae equal
15:01:31 <int-e> oerjan: fwiw, that was my initial reaction as well.
15:02:04 <oerjan> it's pretty obvious it cannot be converging
15:02:24 <oerjan> (you can always adjust n to get a term close to 1)
15:02:38 <oerjan> er i
15:05:09 <oerjan> this probably needs some trick i cannot guess.
15:05:57 <orin> (i+1)^2-i-1 = i^2+2i+1-i-1 = i^2+i
15:06:29 <orin> So the difference between the things is 2i
15:06:58 <oerjan> if it were just sum_{i=1}^n sin(i) i could see how to do the "roughly equal" thing.
15:07:21 <oerjan> orin: "the things"?
15:07:55 <orin> The thing you take mod pi/2 of to tell if a term is positive or negative
15:08:09 <orin> i^2-1
15:08:13 <orin> i^2-i
15:08:18 <oerjan> i suspect that's not going to help you.
15:09:03 <oerjan> and that some actual trigonometry is needed
15:09:09 <orin> It doesn't look jhopeful
15:14:09 <int-e> yeah the surprising bit is that actual trigonometry actually helps
15:14:55 <int-e> you can use sin(n)sin(n^2) = 1/2(cos(n-n^2) - cos(n+n^2)).
15:15:25 <orin> Aha!
15:17:18 <orin> and n+n^2 =  (n+1)^2-(n+1)
15:18:12 <int-e> Right, I should've written cos(n^2-n) - cos(n^2+n)
15:18:17 <orin> Which we can use to relate each term to previous term
15:19:52 <orin> e.g. in term i, we have -cos(i^2+i) and in term i+1 we have cos(i^2+i)
15:20:35 <int-e> the English call this a telescoping sum (Wikipedia says "series"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescoping_series
15:21:00 <orin> Which means that the sum is (1/2)cos(0) - (1/2)cos(n^2-n)
15:21:18 <int-e> which is bounded :)
15:21:24 <orin> yah
15:21:45 <orin> I think i may have something backwards,but basicall that's it
15:22:44 <oerjan> next, prove/disprove that it still holds with basically arbitrary polynomials instead hth
15:23:48 <oerjan> i.e. sum_{i=1}^n sin(p_1(i)) ... sin(p_k(i))
15:24:02 <oerjan> probably need to be non-constant at least
15:24:13 <oerjan> well, at least one of them
15:25:27 <oerjan> (disclaimer: i don't actually know the answer and when i tried to type that my hunch is it still holds, i got a hunch not to type it hth)
15:26:33 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
15:43:27 <int-e> oerjan: well in any case it's unlikely to be "cute".
15:52:17 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:53:12 <oerjan> OKAY
15:54:55 <int-e> oerjan: are you disagreeing with my sense of cuteness?
15:55:08 <oerjan> heaven forbid
16:03:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:08:00 <int-e> Oh, one for elliott (who should be asleep): I have this irrational belief that all phenomena we observe have, in principle, a logical explanation (this is weaker than it may sound, because it includes chaotic systems like actual people making decisions, which are based on the laws of physics (great term) but which cannot be predicted in practice even though they, too, are governed by some...
16:08:06 <int-e> ...unknown laws of physics.)
16:09:22 <int-e> stupid redundancy (using irssi means I'm editing this in a 80 character wide line editor (minus prompt), so I never see it all at once...)
16:33:04 <orin> Suika Ibuki on Keith Olbermann
16:33:17 <orin> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIq9f3kW1cA
16:33:28 <orin> 3:10
16:36:08 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:48:15 -!- MoALTz has joined.
16:56:49 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SWEDISHISH CHICKEN).
16:57:12 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
16:59:41 -!- aretecode has joined.
17:00:01 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:01:27 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Client Quit).
17:21:15 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
17:35:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
17:44:53 <zzo38> Do you know answering my other questions? You didn't quite answer all of them.
17:45:21 <shachaf> Which questions?
17:45:59 <zzo38> This is messy http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stapler
17:46:59 <zzo38> The iron in two cars would have different position/momentum/configuration/etc so if you just switched all iron from one car with another instantaneously somehow, I think it would be explosive? Even if not, aren't the fermions anticommutative, and can the state have different quantum entanglement?
17:47:58 <zzo38> I read some book says that "d^2x" isn't consistent if d^2y/dx^2 is a second derivative; I did try to calculate myself (assuming that d^2x means d(dx)) and I did get a different more complicated answer that agrees with one in the book.
17:48:06 <zzo38> Isn't it?
17:57:45 <b_jonas> hello, zzo38
17:58:52 -!- MoALTz has joined.
17:59:17 <shachaf> zzo38: What is d?
18:02:19 <zzo38> I mean d is used for derivatives
18:02:29 <zzo38> Like dy/dx for derivative of y with respect to x
18:03:53 <shachaf> Yes, but what does it actually mean? What's d^2?
18:04:07 <orin> I have a book that attemps to use infinitesimals to put the d/dx notation on a good grounding
18:04:16 <orin> lemme get it one sec
18:04:51 <shachaf> There are lots of ways to do infinitesimals.
18:04:58 <shachaf> I think hyperreals are probably not the best way.
18:06:24 <orin> yeah so dy = f'(x)dx, where dx is an infinitesimal
18:06:49 <shachaf> "infinitesimal" can means lots of different things.
18:06:50 <zzo38> A d^2 is apparently nothing in the normal way, but the new way has d^2x meaning d(dx) so it is the "d" operator applied twice
18:07:22 <zzo38> Something like dx and dy are just derivative operators on x and y that act in certain ways by mathematically.
18:07:42 <shachaf> What's the new way?
18:08:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:08:01 <orin> dx is defined to be an infinitesimal that is "infinitely small" _as compared to_ x
18:08:03 <zzo38> I told you what is the new way
18:08:24 <zzo38> orin: That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I see it is often defined like that
18:08:42 <shachaf> You haven't even said what "infinitesimal" means. Is it a hyperreal?
18:08:54 <orin> Shachaf: yaehg
18:09:25 <orin> The book is "Foundations of infinitesimal calculus" by H Jerome Keisler
18:09:45 <orin> 1976
18:09:52 <zzo38> To me it is just a "derivative operator"; it doesn't look like any amount of "small" or anything like that; but, if the result is the same regardless then it is just as much correct.
18:11:01 <shachaf> zzo38: There's the exterior derivative operation, which is called d. But for that operation d^2 = 0
18:11:20 <zzo38> I am not talking about the exterior derivative operation
18:11:56 <shachaf> So what's the derivative operator?
18:12:39 <zzo38> It is an operator with certain mathematical properties.
18:12:48 <shachaf> What does it operate on?
18:14:50 <zzo38> It operates on however the derivative is figured, such as  d(x^2) = 2xdx  and so on.
18:14:58 <Phantom_Hoover> what
18:15:05 <Phantom_Hoover> that sentence doesn't even make sense
18:15:16 <shachaf> What is dx?
18:15:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: can you show that irc logging to sqlite database stuff you've made? I'm not going to use it as is, but now I'm curios and might learn from it
18:16:03 <zzo38> b_jonas: http://sprunge.us/BMbX
18:16:16 <b_jonas> thanks
18:19:26 <b_jonas> you use \r\n instead of just \n as the line terminator for commands? are there irc servers that don't like \n ?
18:21:02 <zzo38> The RFC specifies that \r\n is used as the line terminator. (I think this is common of many internet protocols.)
18:21:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's what the rfc says, and servers send you \r\n
18:22:01 <b_jonas> but at least freenode allows receiving just \n fine, and if you do that, you get one more bytes from the 512 byte line length limit, though that rarely matters
18:22:30 <b_jonas> I mean, you can send one more payload byte that way
18:23:07 <zzo38> But the protocol is supposed to use \r\n even if most (all?) servers accept just \n
18:23:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: the rfcs are old, and I'm using other extensions too
18:23:50 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know where I can read about the meaning of the d operator?
18:24:14 <zzo38> shachaf: Try on Wikipedia? I don't know
18:24:46 <shachaf> Which page?
18:24:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: static int buffer_length_max=2992; => I use 3040 for some reason, but I think that's not the precise limit
18:25:03 <b_jonas> but both are close
18:25:07 <b_jonas> it's not much higher
18:26:19 <b_jonas> ah, but apparently it's overridable
18:26:22 <b_jonas> that's why you didn't declare it const
18:26:37 <fizzie> int-e: No, none of the models is (yet, at least) automatically updated.
18:26:46 <fizzie> int-e: Arguably, I should do that.
18:26:51 <zzo38> Yes, if a SQL code calls the IRCCONFIG function it can override the buffer_length_max
18:27:24 <fizzie> int-e: Although there's a bit of an issue in that the irc model was trained with a rather different algorithm, so wouldn't that be kind of like murder? It might completely change its personality.
18:28:27 <b_jonas> hmm
18:28:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: thanks for the info
18:28:48 <zzo38> fizzie: Can't you do both kinds, to make two kind of model?
18:29:11 <int-e> fizzie: I'm fine with the current state of affairs. (And indeed, you should preserve the current irc model, and perhaps have another dynirc model that's getting updated)
18:29:46 <int-e> so if the latter turns evil we can get rid of it :P
18:31:39 <b_jonas> you're calling sqlite3_prepare, rather than sqlite3_prepare_v2? strange
18:32:55 <zzo38> b_jonas: You use sqlite3_prepare_v2 in case it should auto-reprepare if the schema is changed, but the schema isn't supposed to change while it is running. If you want to allow it, change it to sqlite3_prepare_v2.
18:33:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, I just thought it was easiest to always use sqlite3_prepare_v2
18:33:28 <zzo38> (Changing the schema while running and repreparing can cause statements to reset in the middle and stuff like that, which might cause problems sometimes)
18:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, you realise that 'dx' basically doesn't have a formal definition in mathematics?
18:33:57 <b_jonas> ah
18:34:06 <b_jonas> I see
18:34:30 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: no, that's just what they say to you
18:34:30 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Are you sure? I thought it is stuff like   d(x^2) = 2xdx   and stuff like that, but that the d^2x for second derivatives doesn't have a formal definition.
18:34:45 <Phantom_Hoover> it's used in general as a suggestive hint and it has a couple of very domain-specific definitions that don't really work for all the ways the notation is used
18:35:06 <zzo38> (Unless you use the variant notation (which is more complicated) where d^2x is valid)
18:35:22 <Phantom_Hoover> well that's the 'suggestive notation' sense
18:35:49 <coppro> yes, typically it's just a notation
18:36:04 <coppro> but you can in fact formalize bits of the notation
18:36:07 <orin> d(x^2)/dx = I couldn't find any older calculus textbooks, but I do have an old physics textbook here
18:36:47 <orin> which refers vaguley to infinitesimals but doesn't formalize anything
18:37:42 <zzo38> If d^2x mean d(dx) then the second derivative is supposed to be (d^2y - d^2x dy/dx) / dx^2
18:37:57 <zzo38> You can even calculate this yourself; that's what I did.
18:38:10 <zzo38> But also the answer is in book; I came up with the same answer.
18:38:47 <b_jonas> wait, you assume the buffer is cleared if you get any PONG? so the higher levels aren't allowed to send PONGs at all?
18:38:57 <Phantom_Hoover> yes but the point is that if you try to formalise the notation like that you'll quickly run into contradictions
18:39:01 <b_jonas> um
18:39:04 <b_jonas> send PINGs
18:40:13 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know the best way? Therefore I did like that. If you make improvement you can send to me too I can fix my program too
18:40:56 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: If you are careful then I don't expect having a lot of problem? I assume to don't use any "disembodied operators" though.
18:41:51 <b_jonas> I send a PING with a specific body, "PING B\n" and only assume the buffer cleared if I get a PONG with the second argument equal to "B"
18:41:52 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What sorts of contradictions?
18:42:01 <shachaf> The d notation works so well that I'd like to believe that it can be formalized.
18:42:23 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, i honestly don't remember off the top of my hat. try making your notation work with integrals, at least
18:42:45 <shachaf> Well, half the fun is making it work with integrals.
18:43:10 <shachaf> Things like ∫ ... dy/dx dx = ∫ ... dy
18:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a reason the two main formalisations of calculus use either epsilontics or a much more nuanced set-theoretic description of infinitesimals that the 'dx' notation can't express
18:43:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, wait, do you assume that your nick can never change?
18:43:37 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: You're talking about hyperreals?
18:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
18:43:49 <b_jonas> the server can change your nick by sending a "NICK" statement, and it does this when there's a nick collision after a netunsplit
18:44:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes. I didn't add all the stuff in yet, but perhaps it should be added in.
18:44:07 <shachaf> What about synthetic differential geometry?
18:44:22 <shachaf> If that's the thing I'm thinking of.
18:44:34 <zzo38> As I said, if you make improvements I will merge them in (as long as they are compatible with public domain; CC0 and Unlicense are also OK)
18:45:17 <b_jonas> and knowing your nick is useful because it lets you tell if a KICK statement is kicking you from a channel or someone else, though I just chose the simple solution that if the server changes my nick, I make the bot exit
18:45:46 <shachaf> Smooth infinitesimal analysis.
18:45:47 <shachaf> That thing.
18:46:33 <zzo38> b_jonas: Clearly doesn't seems the best solution, but you can do that by adding triggers (even if proper nick change handling is added into the program)
18:49:33 <orin> Damn. I was hoping I had a calculus textbook from before the move to limits reached classrooms, but I don't
18:49:53 <orin> I have 
18:50:16 <orin> "A School Geometry" from 1933 but that isn't calculus
18:51:54 -!- bb010g has joined.
18:55:51 -!- idris-bot has joined.
19:01:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, the proper solution would be ghosting the user using my desired nick, then nicking back to it
19:01:17 -!- hilquias has joined.
19:01:46 <b_jonas> and at the same time following what my current nick is while that happens
19:03:23 <b_jonas> and giving up only if I can't get my original nick back in a few attempts of ghosting.
19:04:52 -!- scoofy has joined.
19:19:47 <nvd> Aaaaaah why does anything exist
19:22:19 <orin> because Eru Illuvatar. 
19:22:36 -!- hilquias has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:25:15 <orin> because Armok
19:26:51 <b_jonas> nvd: nothing actually exists. the Monkey is just imagining everything that you think exists very carefully, because he's bored otherwise.
19:29:31 -!- hilquias has joined.
19:51:38 <pikhq> Hum, funky. HTTP specifically mentions the notion of an HTTP proxy being used for purposes of translating between protocols.
19:52:12 <nvd> I have decided that reality exists because it is mathematically consistent and thus were it to be simulated the simulation of me would experience the same perceptions I do
19:52:26 <pikhq> e.g.: GET gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/world HTTP/1.1 is a perfectly reasonable request.
19:52:26 <nvd> And thus as a mathematical model this universe must exist
19:52:43 <pikhq> An implementing proxy would of course translate that Gopher menu to HTML.
19:54:56 <pikhq> Or (more useful but also more bizarre): GET ftp://ftp.gnu.org/ HTTP/1.1
19:57:31 <zzo38> I suppose it is valid for a HTTP server to do that (although <gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/world> means to request the selector "orld" of type "w"; for a menu the type should be "1")
19:58:07 <pikhq> Sorry, I was incorrect in the URL.
19:58:23 <pikhq> gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/world is the actual URL.
19:58:48 <pikhq> But yes, it appears both valid and intended for an HTTP proxy to function in that manner.
19:58:58 <nvd> In C, if a pointer dereferences to a value, is it guaranteed that it will always dereference to some value?
19:59:30 <pikhq> nvd: No, it is possible for system state to change such that that pointer is invalid.
19:59:41 <nvd> As in, crash the program invalid?#
20:00:18 <pikhq> (the most obvious ways are for a free() call to invalidate the pointer or for the object the pointer points at to go out of scope)
20:00:22 <pikhq> Yes.
20:01:03 <nvd> OK
20:01:15 <pikhq> char *foo(void) {char a = 'f';return &a;} /* This returns an invalid pointer. Dereferencing it is invalid. */
20:02:19 <nvd> Thanks
20:11:01 -!- teakey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:16:14 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:19:50 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
20:22:46 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:23:15 -!- MoALTz has joined.
20:24:34 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:27:16 -!- TieSoul has changed nick to TieSoul_.
20:27:23 -!- TieSoul_ has changed nick to Tiesoul.
20:27:27 -!- Tiesoul has changed nick to TieSoul.
20:37:32 <orin> Note that a null pointer isn't the same thing as an invalid pointer. Dereferencing a invalid pointer *may* still work, it is just not defined by language standard. For example, on an NES, you might do: short *BRKVEC = 0xFFFE; to access the address of the break interrupt handler. But that behaviour isn't part of the language standard/
20:40:39 <orin> IOW, in some code, you might see stuff that seems to be totally invalid, becuase such code is written for a specific hardware where the behavour is known
21:02:53 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
21:03:03 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Changing host).
21:03:03 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
21:05:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:17:15 -!- thirds has joined.
21:20:57 <thirds> ohhai
21:21:57 <elliott> `relcome thirds
21:22:00 <HackEgo> ​thirds: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:22:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
21:30:09 <thirds> haha thank you elliot
21:45:54 <int-e> . o O ( coming back for seconds? )
21:46:35 <zzo38> No! You need to coming back for thirds! It says right there!
21:52:47 <Sgeo> Is IE supposed to make sense?
21:53:20 <Sgeo> Hmm, it's fixed in 11
21:54:51 <pikhq> orin: In both cases it's explicitly undefined behavior by the *spec*.
21:55:06 <pikhq> orin: It just so happens an implementation may decide to define undefined behavior.
21:55:33 <pikhq> e.g. a NES C compiler could just define that UB pointer accesses go to the RAM address corresponding to the pointer and all is well.
21:56:31 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:56:55 <zzo38> There is such a C compiler to target NES but I don't know what it does in that case, although only $0000-$1FFF is RAM (and most of it is mirrored)
21:59:44 <zzo38> So address 0 is also RAM
21:59:52 <zzo38> Because in 6502 it is zero-page.
22:00:38 <zzo38> How can you number the forms of each pokemon which is having multi forms with different attack/stat/etc?
22:00:56 <notfowl> Psh
22:01:07 <notfowl> The og 151 don't have alternate forms 
22:02:19 <zzo38> I know
22:02:24 <zzo38> But, some do
22:02:56 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:13:11 <int-e> . o O ( start at 1, and come back when you run out of natural numbers... ) 
22:22:27 <zzo38> I mean to use the numbers which are universal in any program which deal with such thing. I mean to have first the pokemon number and then another field is the form number (zero if it doesn't have alternate forms)
22:22:30 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:27:29 -!- SirCmpwn has changed nick to SirCmpwnTest.
22:27:37 -!- SirCmpwnTest has changed nick to SirCmpwn.
22:32:25 <elliott> pikhq: is *((int *)((intptr_t)1234)) = 123; actually UB
22:32:37 <elliott> I feel like it's only UB if that pointer isn't okay, which it might be
22:34:26 <elliott> thirds: have you been here before? kinda half-recognise your name
22:39:33 <oerjan> formerly known as twothirds
22:41:28 <int-e> . o O ( There is no such nick nth )
22:41:53 <oerjan> there' nthern on the wiki iirc
22:41:57 <oerjan> *+s
22:43:29 -!- boily has joined.
22:44:04 <boily> @metar CYUL
22:44:05 <lambdabot> CYUL 102200Z 04014KT 15SM BKN023 OVC040 15/12 A3010 RMK SC6SC2 SLP194
22:47:01 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:47:59 <oerjan> CYULLO
22:48:25 <nvd> I should get my local weather thing into an IRC bot...
22:48:40 <nvd> I think I can scrape http://weather.elec.york.ac.uk/liveOutput/vaisala/current.html to get it
22:54:04 <boily> hellørjenva.
22:54:31 <boily> nvellod. I had a bot. it was phagocyted by lambdabot.
22:55:11 <shachaf> @metar KOAK
22:55:11 <lambdabot> KOAK 102153Z 25006KT 10SM FEW010 SCT016 SCT200 15/08 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP179 T01500083
22:55:18 <nvd> I am writing (slowly) a bot written in Agda
22:55:26 <nvd> Which seems to be the worst language to write a bot in
22:55:53 <boily> therefore it's the best language to write a bot in.
22:57:58 -!- thirds has left ("Leaving").
23:01:40 <oerjan> our channel fractionally diminished
23:02:03 <shachaf> don't worry, they'll be back
23:02:06 <shachaf> they already came back for seconds
23:03:19 <nvd> boily, that is why I am writing a bot in it!
23:03:30 <nvd> However I don't think I'll do much work on it until exams are over
23:10:54 -!- SirCmpwn has changed nick to SirCmpwnTest.
23:11:03 -!- SirCmpwnTest has changed nick to SirCmpwn.
23:16:38 <fizzie> Vaisala, that's a Finnish company.
23:17:31 <fizzie> (It should be "Väisälä", but...)
23:17:57 <nvd> fizzie, they have something to do with the weather station atop my uni's electronics department!
23:18:22 <fizzie> Yes, they do measurement stuff.
23:18:23 <shachaf> fizzie: Should it? They seem to spell it with 'a's in English.
23:18:43 <fizzie> shachaf: Well, I mean, yes, it's "Vaisala" officially. A different sort of "should".
23:18:59 <fizzie> shachaf: It's named after Vilho Väisälä.
23:19:03 <shachaf> I see.
23:19:07 <fizzie> (The founder.)
23:19:46 <shachaf> At what point should you decide to transliterate?
23:20:06 <shachaf> I don't know that ä is used in any English words.
23:20:08 <fizzie> Possibly as soon as you have global ambitions.
23:20:17 <oerjan> tränsliteräte eärly, tränsliteräte öften
23:21:29 <shachaf> örj̈än
23:21:29 <nvd> shachaf, I think it might be in some loanwords from German?
23:21:41 <shachaf> nvd: Maybe a few lone words.
23:22:43 * orin tries to like DiGiTAL WiNG on facebook
23:22:50 <orin> 6 people like this
23:23:05 * orin flips table
23:25:20 <fizzie> nvd: Anyway, the page looks like something they really should publish in JSON or XML or ASN.1-BER or protobufs or...
23:27:40 <nvd> Yeah, I know...
23:27:53 <fizzie> We used to have a fancy weather page at the radiolab's home page, but it seems to no longer exist. Although I don't think it was very open-data-friendly either.
23:28:30 <fizzie> And admittedly the remaining http://outside.aalto.fi/ is even less scrapable.
23:28:50 <fizzie> Oh, http://outside.aalto.fi/data.txt
23:29:06 <fizzie> I retract my complaint. Although they could actually link to that.
23:30:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Velato]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42830&oldid=41716 * Rottytooth * (-3) if we're going to have a "see also" section, makes sense to put Fugue there as well
23:31:22 <nvd> One of my friends once caused an impressive bot loop in another channel
23:31:39 <nvd> There were two bots, one which printed the title of links posted, the other which could evaluate brainfuck
23:32:14 <nvd> He spent about a day writing a brainfuck program which printed a URL, and making it short enough to not get cut off
23:32:48 <nvd> And then set the page at that URL's title to be the the command to make the bot execute that program
23:34:16 <oerjan> @google i don't see how that could possibly work
23:34:18 <lambdabot> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DoTheSimplestThingThatCouldPossiblyWork
23:34:18 <lambdabot> Title: Do The Simplest Thing That Could Possibly Work
23:34:33 <oerjan> darn Title: prefix
23:34:50 <nvd> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~lordaro/bf.html
23:35:11 <oerjan> !bf http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~lordaro/bf.html
23:35:16 <EgoBot> ​.............
23:35:48 <nvd> EgoBot can do a URL?
23:36:24 <nvd> By which I mean, EgoBot can read the title of a page, unescape it, and execute it as though it were brainfuck?
23:36:26 <oerjan> yes, although apparently not unescape html entities
23:36:36 <oerjan> um no
23:36:44 <oerjan> it reads the page source, obviously
23:37:07 <nvd> !bf ++++[>++++++<-]>[>++>++++>+++++<<<-]>>++++++++.++++++++++++..----.<++++++++++.-----------..>++.+++.-------.-----------.++++++.++++.------------.+++++++++++++.<-.>------.-------.++.++++++++.++++++++.----.------------.<.>++++++++++++.+++.-----------.<+.>>++++++.<+++++.+++.+++.--------------.---.+++++++++++++++++.---.<.>-------------.++++.<-.>++.++++++++++++.-------.-.
23:37:07 <EgoBot> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~lordaro/bf.html