←2015-06-16 2015-06-17 2015-06-18→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:00:00 <nys> apparently arbitrary limits can be constructed from products and equalizers
00:00:07 <nys> so i'd just need to figure out how to do equalizers
00:01:08 <shachaf> Sure. But Haskell doesn't have equalizers, for instance.
00:01:31 <nys> yeah, maybe some types could be.. equalizable?
00:01:41 <shachaf> Easier with dependent types. :-)
00:01:54 <nys> :s
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00:32:39 <zzo38> When parsing a multipart/form-data block is it necessary to consider base64 and quoted-printable encodings?
00:36:07 <pikhq> Yes, it explicitly may be encoded as such.
00:36:22 <pikhq> (RFC2388)
00:37:53 -!- trout has changed nick to constant.
00:38:01 <zzo38> At least cURL seems to only use binary encodings when sending data
00:38:42 <zzo38> But, I can try to detect it anyways, if I can write a C code to decode base64 encodings.
00:39:12 <pikhq> It will be stated in the headers of the multipart/form-data block.
00:39:18 <pikhq> (content-transfer-encoding)
00:39:26 <zzo38> Yes I know it is mentioned there
00:40:20 <zzo38> Before reading the data, it is necessary to figure out the transfer encoding, field name, and if applicable the MIME type.
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01:47:03 <shachaf> `` mv bin/mk{e,x}
01:47:05 <HackEgo> No output.
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02:38:46 <oerjan> `? piet
02:38:46 <HackEgo> Piet is a really colorful programming language.
02:43:25 <izabera> `` type ?
02:43:25 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: 0: not found
02:43:43 <izabera> wtf...
02:43:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Don't bother clicking here.]]": Vandalism: content was: "I did actually fucking bother. #firstworldanarchism" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/|]]")
02:45:13 <izabera> `` type "?"
02:45:14 <HackEgo> ​? is /hackenv/bin/?
02:45:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:]] with an expiry time of 1 month (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Why isn't "Vandalism" listed as a block reason?
02:45:33 <izabera> `` file /hackenv/bin/"?"
02:45:35 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/?: POSIX shell script, UTF-8 Unicode text executable
02:45:41 <izabera> `` cat /hackenv/bin/"?"
02:45:42 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
02:46:20 <izabera> can it export to a pastebin?
02:46:48 <fowl> sh scripts
02:46:56 <fowl> the original esoteric language
02:46:57 <oerjan> `cat bin/pastewisdom
02:46:59 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ echo http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
02:47:26 <oerjan> hm that's nonmodular
02:48:00 <oerjan> `` sed -i '2curl wisdom' bin/pastewisdom
02:48:02 <HackEgo> No output.
02:48:06 <oerjan> `pastewisdom
02:48:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom
02:49:03 <oerjan> izabera: see also wisdom.pdf in topic
02:49:06 <izabera> there's a 48 byte zork :o
02:49:10 <izabera> ok
02:49:12 <izabera> thanks
02:52:18 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/unlambda*
02:52:19 <HackEgo> wisdom/unlambda
03:00:55 <tswett> Today's interesting neural net quote:
03:00:59 <tswett> 19:39:12: <zemhill> mroman_.(the post the the other the esoteric and international out out around on wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other th other and design esoteric information, the international hub wiki: <http://esolangs.org/> (watching ", expected prefixible for type crapped and probably obviously)" index. <= <-- you could many bit on the point of expression
03:00:59 <tswett> of scope: (general vocale constructor script to the top of what the manipulate "know" and better for lambdabot ...)) \ command \ std
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03:20:35 <augur> tswett: what was your nick before tsweet? i forget
03:21:06 <tswett> ihope. But dang, that was a long time ago.
03:21:17 <augur> oh yes ihope
03:22:07 <tswett> The corresponding greeting is, of course, "ihellope".
03:22:34 <augur> lol
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03:25:03 <shachaf> `wisdom
03:25:04 <HackEgo> bird/bird bird bird bird
03:25:32 <shachaf> `wisdom
03:25:33 <HackEgo> footnote 8/Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
03:25:36 <shachaf> `wisdom
03:25:36 <HackEgo> right/Right is not two wrongs but three lefts.
03:28:16 <tswett> `? footnote 1
03:28:17 <HackEgo> footnote 1? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:28:36 <tswett> `` ls wisdom/footnote*
03:28:37 <HackEgo> wisdom/footnote 8
03:28:47 <tswett> Mmhmm.
03:28:53 <shachaf> `wisdom
03:28:53 <HackEgo> kmc/kmc ran the International Devious Code Contest of 2013
03:28:58 <shachaf> `wisdom
03:29:00 <HackEgo> ​ /  is a space, unless you're hackego and don't understand wide characters.
03:29:03 <shachaf> `wisdom
03:29:04 <HackEgo> color/Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulh
03:29:08 <shachaf> `wisdom
03:29:09 <HackEgo> tdh/tdh is the past tense of a successful hth. hth.
03:29:26 <shachaf> tdnh
03:29:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> It's a little broken due to canary trouble lately. <-- i think possibly `revert has trouble with reverting file creation? and that it may be unrelated to the canary.
03:30:04 <shachaf> Did we have canary errors before that fateful day?
03:30:11 <oerjan> not that i recall.
03:30:56 <shachaf> you're either wisdom or againsdom
03:31:27 <oerjan> the error is pretty consistent with someone doing rm canary.orig and not expecting that some fool may have turned it into a directory.
03:32:38 <shachaf> `wisdom
03:32:39 <HackEgo> olist/Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick.
03:33:25 <tswett> `` echo uuu >> wisdom/color
03:33:28 <HackEgo> No output.
03:33:30 <tswett> `? color
03:33:30 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
03:33:37 <tswett> Wait.
03:33:44 <tswett> `cat wisdom/color
03:33:44 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
03:33:54 <tswett> Did my echo do anything at all?
03:34:13 <oerjan> tswett: (1) we do _not_ >> into wisdoms. (2) it's actually just a cut off line.
03:34:23 <oerjan> `revert
03:34:24 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:34:39 <oerjan> `` tail -c +10 wisdom/color
03:34:40 <HackEgo> 0olor is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
03:34:56 <shachaf> oerjan: why do you hate newlines twh
03:34:57 <oerjan> erm
03:34:58 <shachaf> `? newline
03:34:59 <HackEgo> Newlines are le/rn's \ biggest weakness.
03:35:04 <oerjan> `` tail -c 10 wisdom/color
03:35:05 <HackEgo> hu.
03:35:23 <oerjan> shachaf: because they make wisdoms ugly.
03:36:01 <shachaf> do you hate wisdom/newline
03:36:29 <tswett> Does >> add a newline at the beginning of the appended stuff?
03:36:42 <oerjan> tswett: no, there's already a newline at the end
03:37:12 <oerjan> also, `learn_append
03:37:13 <shachaf> maybe wisdoms shouldn't have a newline at the end hth
03:38:14 <tswett> oerjan: right, right.
03:38:41 <shachaf> i'm tempted to alter learn and le/rn and so on to use echo -n and remove newlines from all the wisdoms
03:38:51 <oerjan> poor boily
03:39:02 <shachaf> but that would modify the culprits list
03:39:05 <shachaf> which is scow
03:40:07 <oerjan> shachaf: the thing is, it will _still_ not help with people doing >> because _they_ aren't going to know about removing newlines from what they add.
03:40:30 <shachaf> sure, but other people can use echo -n >>
03:41:02 <shachaf> rather than learn_append which maybe doesn't work for entries with spaces in their names and so on
03:41:15 <shachaf> and also has a scow name
03:41:21 <shachaf> `` ls bin/*_*
03:41:22 <HackEgo> bin/learn_append \ bin/learn_append2 \ bin/print_args_or_input
03:41:42 <shachaf> `cat bin/learn_append2
03:41:45 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash
03:41:48 <shachaf> `culprits bin/learn_append2
03:41:49 <HackEgo> mroman_ mroman_
03:41:50 <shachaf> useful
03:43:22 <tswett> `? scow
03:43:23 <HackEgo> scow? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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04:00:07 <shachaf> copumpkin: whoa, that picture is great
04:00:28 <zzo38> We can make RDF file which is categorizing the HackEgo wisdom files by date, user, history, arbitrary tags, etc. RDF requires strings to consist only of Unicode codepoints (with a few exceptions), but it does have a way to represent arbitrary binary data so you can use that if the file contains invalid or non-canonical UTF-8 sequences or null bytes.
04:01:25 <zzo38> However, the other problem is if the filename contains invalid UTF-8 sequences. I have a way around that too though. URIs in a RDF document that contain non-ASCII characters are *not* supposed to be percent-encoded or Punycode-encoded. If the filename contains invalid UTF-8 sequences, I suggest percent-encoding them anyways.
04:02:57 <zzo38> (My own RDF parser doesn't care about invalid UTF-8 sequences but it is possible that others will, so for compatibility reasons it must be considered.)
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04:05:37 <shachaf> The picture in question is http://i.imgur.com/6ocuQsZ.jpg
04:06:55 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
04:07:07 -!- oerjan has kicked shachaf Linking NSFL pictures.
04:07:11 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
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04:09:18 <shachaf> oerjan: I can't tell if that's serious or not.
04:09:30 <oerjan> neither can i hth
04:09:32 <shachaf> But it messed up my irssi windows, since I have it set up to reuse windows and I got a /msg
04:09:49 <shachaf> zzo38: http://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/3a1ebc/image_generated_by_a_convolutional_network/a
04:10:31 <shachaf> I mean http://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/3a1ebc/image_generated_by_a_convolutional_network/
04:10:39 <zzo38> O, it is a convolutional network. OK
04:11:22 <zzo38> What is a convolutional network?
04:11:45 <shachaf> It's an artificial neural network that has convolution layers, I think.
04:11:45 <copumpkin> shachaf: yeah! I can't stop staring
04:11:56 <zzo38> Ah, OK
04:12:44 <shachaf> A convolution layer is a layer where instead of having an affine map where you can change every weight separately, you have a small convolution matrix thing applied everywhere.
04:13:11 <oerjan> shachaf: i think this pretty much sums it up http://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/3a1ebc/image_generated_by_a_convolutional_network/cs8hsei
04:13:20 <shachaf> So it's like training a whole bunch of the network at once with the same values, I guess.
04:14:45 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know about artificial neural network and other things like that?
04:17:25 <zzo38> Not much
04:19:32 <shachaf> `wisdom
04:19:33 <HackEgo> døsthiswørk/yes
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06:02:43 <oren\n> Oh fuck demon dogs!
06:02:57 <oren\n> That's some scary stuff!
06:03:26 <Sgeo_> https://twitter.com/fuckeveryword is a thing that exists
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07:48:05 <zzo38> How do you directly build a frequency-domain of a decaying tone?
07:59:58 <Jafet> Hmm, wikipedia has disabled HTTP access
08:00:40 <Jafet> That's going to make it difficult to cache
08:01:36 <zzo38> Yes, I told them that too
08:06:45 <zzo38> Make the proxy server that uses HTTP with the client but HTTPS with the Wikipedia server
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08:18:32 <rdococ> umm... guys...
08:19:06 <rdococ> Umm...
08:19:20 <zzo38> But there is another way. They said they didn't want problems with accessing insecure connections and then someone tamper with it or steal the setting of cookie or whatever. This can be solved by using a different domain name for insecure connections.
08:19:43 <rdococ> ...cookies
08:20:40 <rdococ> so I heard about this "nullity" thing someone thought up 9 years ago... don't get me wrong, it's total BS, but it makes me think... I wonder what an esoteric language with it built in would be like...?
08:21:41 <rdococ> ... ... nevermind ...
08:21:50 <rdococ> look...umm...
08:21:52 <rdococ> ufh
08:22:16 <rdococ> is anyone here?!
08:22:47 <rdococ> wait... are you shocked? do you think I like the idea? or do you like the idea and are offended?
08:22:50 <zzo38> I am on at least
08:23:04 <zzo38> I do not quite know the answer though.
08:23:09 <rdococ> nevermind...
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08:25:38 <hppavilion1> import}io};
08:25:48 <hppavilion1> print}Hello, World!};
08:25:51 <hppavilion1> return}
08:25:51 <hppavilion1> ;
08:26:00 <rdococ> ...
08:26:07 <hppavilion1> Sorry
08:26:08 <hppavilion1> First time
08:26:18 <oerjan> we discussed nullity way back and i think we decided it was crap. although here's a more serious way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_theory
08:26:21 <hppavilion1> I always start with hello worlds when I join something new
08:26:21 <rdococ> oh!!! I know what you were doing...
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08:26:45 <rdococ> its okay... its kinda funny actually... but for a second I didn't know what you were talking about...
08:26:57 <zzo38> OK
08:27:06 <hppavilion1> Wait, are you talking to me? I doubt it, but just checking
08:27:07 <rdococ> anyway... welcome...
08:27:14 <oerjan> `relcome hppavilion1
08:27:15 <HackEgo> hppavilion1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
08:27:21 <rdococ> yes I am.
08:27:39 <hppavilion1> Yay
08:27:44 <hppavilion1> I'm welcome somewhere :P
08:28:37 <rdococ> of course you are!
08:28:48 <zzo38> Is nullity meaning a name for zero divided by zero (even though of course you cannot divide by zero)? I think I heard "nullity" meaning it once?
08:28:56 <rdococ> yeah...
08:29:46 <rdococ> http://www.bbc.co.uk/berkshire/content/articles/2006/12/06/divide_zero_feature.shtml ... don't get me wrong, 0 / 0 would equal nullity, but that's because 0 / 0 would equal anything if you let it...
08:29:56 <zzo38> I suppose it can be useful to have a name for it in some cases, even though it is not actually a possible operation.
08:29:59 <hppavilion1> I just spent the last few hours writing a Befunge Interpreter in python
08:30:09 <oerjan> there's already an esolang including nullity it's called IEEE 754 hth
08:30:35 <rdococ> a / b = c means c * b = a. applying that to 0/0, we get 0 / 0 = x means x * 0 = 0... and every number satisfies that, including nullity itself
08:30:52 <zzo38> Yes, I can see that
08:31:36 <zzo38> It isn't what I meant though; what I meant is you are explicitly dividing zero by zero. For example to figure out the percentage of questions you answered correctly on a test even though there are no questions on the test.
08:31:48 <rdococ> yeah...
08:32:10 <oerjan> i'm not sure the befunge experts are awake at the moment
08:32:18 <zzo38> It isn't a number, but rather some kind of convenient shortcut in some cases.
08:32:24 <oerjan> fungot: except you, of course!
08:32:24 <fungot> oerjan: fnord is a fetish, now is. anyway, obviously tusho's dialect forbids " got" it is? :) where would you like
08:32:45 <zzo38> You can't do any proper mathematical operations with it.
08:33:32 <rdococ> IEEE 754 might have been vandalised... there's nothing on the article
08:33:45 <rdococ> or deleted...
08:33:49 <oerjan> rdococ: on wikipedia?
08:33:56 <rdococ> no...
08:34:10 <rdococ> you said there was an esolang called IEEE 754
08:34:22 <oerjan> i was joking hth
08:34:31 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_floating_point
08:34:45 <rdococ> ik...
08:34:50 <rdococ> well, now I do
08:34:53 <rdococ> anyway...
08:35:19 <hppavilion1> Oh god
08:35:21 <rdococ> for most purposes, I would say 0 / 0 = 1.
08:35:51 <hppavilion1> I think that the Befunge interpreter is the longest thing I've ever written. At <500 lines. Which is sad.
08:36:02 <oerjan> hppavilion1: i think the standard thing to do with a new befunge interpreter around here is to get it to pass Deewiant's mycology test suite
08:36:11 <rdococ> that would be a new record for me
08:36:13 <zzo38> rdococ: I would not say any one for "most purposes"
08:36:40 <rdococ> where are you likely to see 0/0 in maths where it's not just an error on your part?
08:37:00 <rdococ> then we'll get the value we should assign to 0/0 for those purposes.
08:37:10 <rdococ> it could equal anything, so any value will do.
08:37:59 <zzo38> Whether or not anything should be assigned at all depends on the situation.
08:38:12 <rdococ> true...
08:38:29 <rdococ> Anderson provides a proof that 0^0 = 0/0. usually, 0^0 = 1 for most purposes
08:38:32 <oerjan> rdococ: l'Hopital's rule hth
08:38:44 <zzo38> Mathematically there is no proper answer that you can use
08:38:47 <oerjan>
08:39:24 <zzo38> Although I do think 0^0=1 is valid. But if you have a proof that 0^0 = 0/0 that doesn't seem valid because the "0/0" part is the not-valid part.
08:39:37 <rdococ> true...
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08:40:45 <rdococ> a long while ago I stumbled upon a question, "in a foreign country, 5 / 2 = 3. based on the same proportions, what is 10 / 3?" I immediately thought, "what foreign country would do this and why?"
08:41:15 <rdococ> I wonder if every country did that before the invention/discovery/whatever of zero.
08:41:19 <zzo38> It doesn't make sense.
08:42:52 <rdococ> it does to me... simply put, such a country denies the existence of zero in their mathematical teachings. in modern countries, x / 2 is the number in the middle of 0 and x. but when and where zero doesn't exist, x / 2 would be the number in the middle of 1 and x instead.
08:46:15 <zzo38> I was making different assumptions, in an attempt to be mathematically correct; it has nothing to do with foreign countries or whether or not zero is invented
08:53:48 <rdococ> well, of course 5 / 2 does not equal 3. I wasn't saying it does.
08:54:16 <rdococ> but in a world without 0, or in a world without fractions, division or numbers might take a different meaning
08:54:43 <rdococ> for example, someone might say 5 objects / 2 objects = 3 objects, even if the third object is only half as big as the other two
08:54:56 <rdococ> but we would say 5 / 2 = 2.5
08:54:59 <zzo38> Maybe, I don't know. But, the current mathematical way would still be possible too.
08:55:17 <rdococ> definitely
08:55:43 <rdococ> even if there's no concept of the number zero, it has no effect on the applications of division and sharing
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08:56:36 <rdococ> imagine if we could create an esolang with this alternate division
08:56:48 <zzo38> You can try
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08:58:45 <rdococ> hmm
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11:43:56 <mroman> @tell oerjan http://codepad.org/LA8kRBCM
11:43:56 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:01:26 <Taneb> Does anyone know enough about http://www.eclipse.org/epsilon/ to give me a tl;dr
12:01:55 <Phantom_Hoover> does there exist a http://www.eclipse.org/delta/?
12:02:16 <int-e> . o O ( I can do the ;dr part just fine... )
12:03:08 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, evidently not
12:12:52 <rdococ> epsilon = 1/infinity = 1/(1/0) = 0...
12:14:05 <Taneb> Hmm, the ebook documenting it is written by 4 people from this uni
12:14:12 <rdococ> omg... I have an idea...
12:15:19 <Taneb> `learn epsilon stands for Extensible Platform of Integrated Languages for Model Management (EPILMM)
12:15:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'epsilon': epsilon stands for Extensible Platform of Integrated Languages for Model Management (EPILMM)
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12:16:13 <rdococ> you know numbers, 1, 2, 3...? when you mutiply a number x by some number y and add some number z, you get a linear function with a constant derivative...? imagine a number δ you can multiply by some other number y and add another number z, where you don't get a linear function with a constant derivative...?
12:17:09 <Taneb> I do not think such language exists
12:17:11 <Taneb> *number
12:17:23 <rdococ> but imagine if there was... that'd be... interesting
12:17:35 <rdococ> more interesting than that nullity bull
12:18:33 <rdococ> also... another idea... there are minus numbers and plus numbers, why can't there be multiplicative numbers or divisional numbers? -3, +4, *2, and /6
12:19:04 <Taneb> That sounds interesting...
12:19:11 <Taneb> It would make arithmetic weird
12:19:20 <mroman> What's the system called where an operation is carried out if enough arguments are available
12:19:21 <Taneb> What is 3 times *4 for example?
12:19:24 <Taneb> Would it be 81?
12:19:30 <rdococ> 3 * *4 = 3 ^ 4
12:19:41 <rdococ> and 3 + *4 = 3 * 4
12:19:47 <mroman> meaning that 5 + 3, + 3 5 and 5 3 + are actually equivalent and are both the same expressions in that system
12:19:53 <Taneb> This makes multiplication non-commutative and non-associative
12:20:00 <Taneb> Maybe addition too
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12:21:10 <mroman> (they are semantically identical)
12:21:34 <rdococ> and, multiplicative numbers would act like δ as I said - the second derivative of δx+b isn't constant zero
12:22:29 <rdococ> which would be cool
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12:22:37 <Taneb> rdococ, would there be exponential numbers?
12:22:42 <rdococ> yes
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12:22:51 <rdococ> 3 + ^4 = 3 ^ 4
12:24:56 <rdococ> 2 - ^2 = square root of 2
12:27:29 <Taneb> What about ^3 ^ ^2?
12:29:41 <ais523> is this some sort of logarithm-based arithmetic?
12:29:58 <APic> =^.^=
12:29:58 <Taneb> ais523, it is where numbers carry operators
12:30:05 <ais523> and + is concatenation?
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12:33:13 <Taneb> I think so?
12:33:18 <Taneb> It is rdococ
12:33:20 <Taneb> 's thing
12:35:24 <Taneb> Anyway, I need to figure out what Epsilon is by Friday afternoon
12:36:58 <ais523> @message mauris you can omit the parens in a method call in Lua? you seem to do to that inconsistently, I think I'm missing what the parse rules are for it
12:36:58 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
12:37:10 <ais523> @ask mauris you can omit the parens in a method call in Lua? you seem to do to that inconsistently, I think I'm missing what the parse rules are for it
12:37:11 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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12:38:20 <b_jonas> ais523: you can omit them if the argument is a string literal or table constructor iirc
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12:38:39 <mroman> Does C11 have generics yet?
12:38:48 <ais523> mroman: it has _Generic, so no
12:38:55 <ais523> (_Generic is sort-of the opposite of generics, in a way)
12:39:07 <b_jonas> ais523: http://www.lua.org/manual/5.3/manual.html#3.4.10
12:39:43 <ais523> huh, I've never actually read the Lua spec
12:39:48 <mroman> Like node_<type>*
12:39:51 <ais523> I guess there'll be some nice bedtime reading for me :-)
12:39:59 <mroman> instead of having node_t with a void* data; pointer
12:40:00 <rdococ> hmm
12:40:12 <mroman> you could have node_<type> with a type* data; pointer
12:40:19 <b_jonas> ais523: asking here is also ok
12:40:42 <mroman> I mean I could do stuff like uhm
12:40:52 <ais523> b_jonas: that requires being oline
12:41:08 <mroman> #define list_int list_t
12:41:14 <mroman> to annotate that this list points to integers
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12:41:35 <rdococ> imagine an infinite-dimensional polynomial number plane, with units like 1, x, x^2, x^3, x^4, x^5...
12:41:38 <b_jonas> ais523: true. whereas the docs are downloadable
12:41:59 <b_jonas> and the implementation too
12:42:12 <ais523> yep
12:42:15 <mroman> or just name it foo(list_t int_list);
12:42:19 <ais523> I have a standalone Lua impl already but I rarely use it
12:42:27 <ais523> I use it for testing the algorithmic parts of Enigma levels sometimes
12:42:43 <rdococ> a Polynomial datatype, with a number for each exponentiation... 2 + 3x + 4x^2, is stored as the tuple (2, 3, 4)...
12:42:52 <b_jonas> even though I usually have internet connection, I have a lot of things downloaded that I'm not using right now but could be useful
12:42:53 <mroman> does C++ have that?
12:43:00 <mroman> I think C++ has some stuff like that
12:43:02 <b_jonas> I think as you're less often online you probably do that more
12:43:28 <b_jonas> but I have used lua to write at least one signature-length obfu
12:43:47 <mroman> template <typename T> struct node { T* data; node* next; };?
12:44:25 <mroman> I'll guess I'll use a C++ compiler then *only* for the template feature :D
12:44:27 <b_jonas> `lua -e a="for b=2,26 do c=0;for d,e in ipairs({a:byte(1,-1)})do c=(b*c+e)%127 end;io.write(string.char(c))end--$S`U$-}OPX41,@aYH\3\26Q2\23*|>"; loadstring(a) {ambrus}
12:44:28 <HackEgo> ​#wV(@yAa \ "f&`O2s~n
12:44:31 <b_jonas> nope
12:44:36 <b_jonas> but something close to that should work
12:44:48 <b_jonas> `lua -e a="for b=2,26 do c=0;for d,e in ipairs({a:byte(1,-1)})do c=(b*c+e)%127end;io.write(string.char(c))end--$S`U$-}OPX41,@aYH\3\26Q2\23*|>"; loadstring(a) {ambrus}
12:44:49 <HackEgo> lua: (command line):1: attempt to call a nil value \ stack traceback: \ (command line):1: in main chunk \ [C]: in ?
12:44:58 <b_jonas> `lua -e a="for b=2,26 do c=0;for d,e in ipairs({a:byte(1,-1)})do c=(b*c+e)%127end;io.write(string.char(c))\nend--$S`U$-}OPX41,@aYH\3\26Q2\23*|>"; loadstring(a) {ambrus}
12:44:58 <HackEgo> lua: (command line):1: attempt to call a nil value \ stack traceback: \ (command line):1: in main chunk \ [C]: in ?
12:45:03 <b_jonas> meh
12:45:26 <b_jonas> `lua -e a="for b=2,26 do c=0;for d,e in ipairs({a:byte(1,-1)})do c=(b*c+e)%127\nend;io.write(string.char(c))end--$S`U$-}OPX41,@aYH\3\26Q2\23*|>"; loadstring(a) {ambrus}
12:45:27 <HackEgo> Just another Lua hacker,
12:45:29 <b_jonas> right, that
12:45:44 <b_jonas> it's easier when it has an actual newline there
12:46:03 <b_jonas> to fit in an email sig
12:46:39 <b_jonas> this one sucks, I should rewrite it
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16:04:09 <ais523> b_jonas: is the trailing comma traditional in any language but Perl?
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16:04:25 <ais523> (actually I don't know why it's there in Perl either, I'm assuming historical reasons; maybe a typo or optimization in the very first JAPH)
16:07:35 <Taneb> Trailing comma?
16:08:02 <ais523> Taneb: the standard output of a JAPH is "Just another Perl hacker,\n"
16:08:13 <Taneb> Aaaaaah
16:08:15 <Taneb> Odd
16:08:30 <ais523> b_jonas's JALH has a trailing comma despite not being in Perl
16:08:43 <Taneb> Just A Lisp Hacker?
16:08:44 <ais523> (and the goal of a JAPH is to print that string in as bizarre a way as possible)
16:08:50 <ais523> Just A Lua Hacker
16:09:05 <Taneb> Aaah
16:09:27 <Taneb> What would be a bizarre language to write a JA*H for
16:10:08 <ais523> Python, although that's probably been done
16:10:09 <ais523> or Java
16:10:22 <ais523> basically languages which aren't meant to have weird corners
16:10:24 <Taneb> Two languages I do not know very well
16:10:28 <ais523> Prolog would be a good one too, but for a different reason
16:10:45 <Taneb> Saying that I do not know many languages very well
16:10:56 <ais523> pick one you do then
16:11:13 <ais523> oh, not Burlesque, the more obvious ways have to be readable
16:11:28 <ais523> there's not much point of doing a JAMH in Malbolge because it doesn't look visually different from any other Malbolge program
16:12:04 <ais523> (Whitespace is the extreme example of that principle, I guess…)
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16:31:03 <Taneb> I am bored I think that I will install a new OS on my laptop
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16:32:38 <ais523> wait, people get bored?
16:32:59 <ais523> sometimes I get drained of mental energy and can't do anything interesting, but there's always tons of stuff I want to do and don't have time to
16:33:30 <Taneb> ais523, I forget to write those down
16:33:54 <Taneb> And then forget what they are
16:34:45 <Taneb> Actually, I will work on my natural numbers representation
16:37:15 <Taneb> newtype Nat = Nat [Nat]
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16:40:12 <ais523> Taneb: with the second Nat there being a constructor?
16:40:17 <Taneb> Yes
16:40:22 <ais523> that seems more general than the naturals, offhand
16:40:37 <Taneb> ais523, with the restriction that the lists are finite and finitely deep
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17:10:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, i still don't get how this representation is meant to work
17:10:49 <Phantom_Hoover> like how do you represent succ
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17:14:04 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, https://gist.github.com/Taneb/f2021eab65ba59aa3693
17:14:39 <Taneb> Basically, it's a list of the offsets between the set digits, starting from least significant
17:25:16 <FreeFull> I imagine doing JA*H would work well in J
17:26:24 <ais523> now I'm trying to remember which humour article it was that claimed that C was a recursive acronym
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17:27:46 <shachaf> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2008-02-01.txt 17:22:56: <ais523> like the entry from the IAQ: "C is a recursive acronym. It stands for 'C'."
17:27:58 <ais523> ah right
17:28:18 <ais523> presumably I thought this was amusing even back in 2008
17:28:36 <coppro> IAQ?
17:28:36 <shachaf> `thanks past ais523
17:28:37 <HackEgo> Thanks, past ais523. Thast ais523.
17:28:46 <shachaf> http://www.seebs.net/faqs/c-iaq.html
17:29:00 <ais523> it's basically a parody FAQ for C
17:29:27 <APic> Nice.
17:30:17 <shachaf> `? c
17:30:18 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
17:33:51 <pikhq> Those are some delightful answers.
17:34:12 <shachaf> `wisdom
17:34:13 <HackEgo> indentity function/indentity function is the function that measures how indented source code is.
17:39:33 <J_Arcane> fn main(){for x in 1..101{match(x%3,x%5){(0,0)=>println!("FizzBuzz"),(0,_)=>println!("Fizz"),(_,0)=>println!("Buzz"),_=>println!("{}",x),}}}
17:40:08 <fowl> Rust is esoteric yes
17:40:23 <J_Arcane> :D
17:42:22 <pikhq> Now do it in valid C without headers.
17:42:33 <shachaf> `wisdom
17:42:34 <HackEgo> gazpacho/You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
17:43:08 <ais523> pikhq: is there some trick I'm missing to that (C fizzbuzz without headers)? printf seems like the hardest part but that can be declared manually
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17:43:38 <pikhq> ais523: Nah, just that most people don't realize it's legal to declare functions without using headers if you can declare them without reference to types in headers.
17:44:07 <pikhq> At least, it seems like some toolchain devs don't realize it. :P
17:44:10 <ais523> you do have to get the declaration right (unless you're using gcc, which will tell you if you've got it wrong and ignore it, IIRC)
17:44:37 <ais523> one thing many people don't realise is that you can declare things like printf /inside/ functions
17:44:41 <pikhq> Yes, but note that int foo(); is a valid declaration.
17:44:56 <ais523> actually, can't you do something like "extern int x, printf(const char *, ...);"?
17:45:10 <pikhq> Yep.
17:45:26 <pikhq> int printf(); is a full declaration of printf.
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17:46:23 <ais523> pikhq: without the extern?
17:46:31 <pikhq> Yes.
17:46:52 <ais523> hmm, now I need to try to figure out what extern actually does on functions, if anything
17:47:04 <pikhq> This behavior, BTW, means glibc's strerror_r is nonconforming. :)
17:48:12 <pikhq> (as is mingw's printf, but mingw only resembles C if you squint at it anyways)
17:48:59 <ais523> mingw's printf uses 64 to print long longs :-P
17:49:06 <ais523> *mingw's printf uses %I64 to print long longs :-P
17:49:21 <ais523> sorry, forgot that %I in Konversation is an escape for tab, which it renders as "toggle italics"
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18:17:09 <shachaf> `wisdom
18:17:10 <HackEgo> pietbot/Pietbot is the only thing that can defeat fungot.
18:17:22 <shachaf> `wisdom
18:17:23 <HackEgo> oerjan_/oerjan_ is oerjan and ørjan's chimæric clone. he shows up on irc when the network is having trouble.
18:17:42 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/oerjan_
18:17:44 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott oerjan
18:21:03 <zzo38> If your program uses SQLite, you can still use SQLite's printf functions to print long long numbers in the way compatible with other computers too
18:21:29 <b_jonas> argh
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18:22:22 <zzo38> (Another way is you can use #ifdef to check)
18:23:59 <shachaf> zzo38: One time I was playing Magic: The Gathering, and I equipped Executioner's Hood on Chromanticore, thinking it was a good move.
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18:27:24 <ais523> shachaf: hey, it's still unblockable by the eldrazi titans!
18:27:41 <ais523> (also it has flying anyway…)
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18:29:10 <shachaf> There were no Eldrazi in the game.
18:29:35 <ais523> still not a 100% useless move unless you /knew/ there were no Eldrazi in the game :-P
18:29:57 <ais523> (also, Ugin's Herald was recently printed, which is colourless because it couldn't be an artifact for flavour reasons)
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18:31:00 <shachaf> The format was "Innistrad and onward".
18:31:29 <ais523> Ugin's Herald is in Dragons of Tarkir, which is the most recent major set
18:31:41 <ais523> also, I didn't realise people still played Extended
18:31:54 <shachaf> This was last year.
18:32:06 <ais523> ah right
18:32:45 <ais523> trying to work out if there are any potential colourless nonartifact creatures under those restrictions
18:32:55 <shachaf> What is Ugin's Herald?
18:33:25 <shachaf> Oh, Scion of Ugin.
18:33:52 <ais523> ah right, I must be remembering the wrong name from somewhere
18:34:35 <J_Arcane> So this seems like a place where people are likely to know; I seem to be confused (or perhaps not and others are) on the distinction between "closure" and "lambda/anonymous function". I've been reading about Rust and Lua a lot lately, and they repeatedly refer to an anonymous function as a "closure," but my understanding was that a closure was rather a specific use of an anonymous function...
18:34:36 <J_Arcane> ...that captures some local state.
18:34:59 <shachaf> A closure isn't necessarily a function at all.
18:35:41 <shachaf> But anyway a closure is a way to implement things that "lexically close" over their environment.
18:35:45 <ais523> J_Arcane: a closure is basically some way of capturing your current local variables in scope
18:35:49 <J_Arcane> Indeed, the terms as explained to me were overlapping but not exclusive: a non-anonymous function can be a closure, and an anonymous function doesn't have to be a closure either.
18:35:49 <ais523> so that you can refer to them later
18:35:57 <shachaf> It can be anonymous or not, and in some cases it doesn't have to be a function at all.
18:36:06 <J_Arcane> I see.
18:36:09 <ais523> they're mostly only useful for nested and anonymous function definitions; I don't think it'd /technically/ have to be for a function but it nearly always is
18:36:44 <ais523> and a "lexical closure" captures lexical scope; I guess you could have a dynamic closure which captures dynamically-scoped variables
18:36:53 <ais523> but that's probably no different to making a copy
18:36:56 <shachaf> In Haskell closures are useful for non-functions.
18:38:38 <zzo38> shachaf: Whether something is a good move usually depends on the situation.
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18:41:33 <zzo38> For example unblockable by colorless eldrazi cards as mentioned above, or if you just want to unequip it from your other creature
18:42:28 <ais523> most of the cases I can think of where I'd want a creature unequipped - and I wanted to equip it in the first place - it's because something has happened to the equipment to make it hurt the creature it's on
18:42:46 <ais523> in which case, it seems unlikely that I'd have something more valuable than a chromanticore to save
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19:01:45 <ais523> (OK, so it only costs 5, but it's the most difficult 5)
19:06:27 <shachaf> The context was that I had an artifact deck with all colorless creatures, so Executioner's Hood was great.
19:06:50 <shachaf> And since all my creatures were colorless, I had land colors evenly distributed.
19:07:15 <shachaf> And since I had all sorts of land colors, I put in a Chromanticore.
19:07:52 <shachaf> Under the reasoning that it wasn't colorless but at least it was color-balanced.
19:08:42 <ais523> shachaf: fwiw, those decks which are full of colourless cards normally run colourless lands because they have nice side effects
19:08:45 <ais523> basics are cheaper, though
19:09:20 <ais523> (in Commander, you actually /have/ to run colourless lands in a colourless deck; there are actually enough even for a 100-card deck, but it can be a pain finding them all)
19:10:39 <pikhq> I wish they'd print Cave.
19:11:40 <ais523> pikhq: a basic land that generates {1}?
19:11:45 <ais523> or something else?
19:11:46 <pikhq> Yes.
19:12:01 <Taneb> I need to get more into Magic, but I am refusing to spend money on it
19:12:03 <ais523> pikhq: apparently they've been trying for literally years but it breaks too many things to add another basic land
19:12:04 <pikhq> They were *this* close at one point to printing "Cave. Basic Land - Cave."
19:12:11 <ais523> Taneb: continue not spending money on it
19:12:17 <Taneb> ais523, it is working well so far
19:12:21 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, it's a rules headache to introduce.
19:12:22 <ais523> you can do what I do, which is to read a lot of articles and not actually play
19:12:22 <Taneb> I have a few friends who lend me decks
19:12:44 <ais523> they've been trying ever since Domain was invented, which is a very long time ago in Magic terms
19:15:19 <shachaf> Taneb: I can give you a bunch of cards when you come visit.
19:15:52 <Taneb> shachaf, I may one day take you up on this offer
19:17:10 <shachaf> limited-time offer
19:17:31 <pikhq> Grrawr, impatience.
19:17:51 <zzo38> But the other reason might be if you want to force opponent to block one of your other cards then you would unequip Executioner's Hood, therefore equip to something else instead.
19:17:56 <Taneb> shachaf, if you can pay for my flights, sure
19:19:59 <pikhq> Flights from Europe? to SFO? are probably pretty pricy.
19:20:22 <ais523> I'd guess in the hundreds of pounds range
19:20:31 <ais523> (also you'd likely need to fly back the other way too)
19:20:46 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how flights compare to ferries, price-wise, over that kind of distance
19:20:54 <ais523> that's the only other viable option and it's much slower
19:21:36 <shachaf> You could fly to the east coast and then hitchhike here.
19:22:03 <ais523> shachaf: hmm, I wouldn't actually expect costs to the east coast and to the west coast to be all that different; I'd expect popular destination / unpopular destination to be more of a factor
19:22:16 <ais523> the US is very wide, and so there'll be fuel and staffing costs going from one side to the other
19:22:23 <shachaf> As I remember it it's somewhat cheaper.
19:22:32 <shachaf> But I could be wrong.
19:22:36 <ais523> but the Atlantic is also wide, and overheads in flying internationally are going to be relevant
19:22:44 <ais523> plus, of course, the standard cost of flying generally
19:22:55 <ais523> anyway, you can get cheaper flights if you're willing to be advertised at constantly en route
19:23:07 <shachaf> Usually transatlantic flights to here consist of two legs.
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19:23:23 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, also depends on when you buy the tickets and stuff like that
19:23:30 <pikhq> SFO-London is a well-established direct flight though.
19:23:31 <shachaf> But maybe that's less true for .uk than for .il.
19:23:37 <b_jonas> like, whether they guess it's a popular time or not
19:23:57 <ais523> shachaf: I would be very surprised if there wasn't a direct flight from Heathrow
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19:24:09 <shachaf> There probably is.
19:24:09 <ais523> it's got to be one of the most connected airports in the world
19:24:27 <Taneb> There is
19:24:32 <pikhq> ais523: There is, it's one of the top 10 most heavily flown flights between Europe and North America I believe.
19:24:39 <ais523> (this reminds me of Birmingham New Street, actually, the most connected train station in the UK; London doesn't have a single major train station, just lots of small ones)
19:25:17 <ais523> strangely, not all traffic to central Birmingham goes through New Street; some uses Moor Street instead, which is maybe about 200m away from it but on different physical train lines
19:25:24 <ais523> probably just due to not being able to fit all the lines into one station
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19:25:34 <pikhq> I don't think Heathrow flies direct to that *many* US airports, but SFO is a big damned airport.
19:25:37 <Taneb> > 427 + 269
19:25:39 <lambdabot> 696
19:25:40 <shachaf> Sounds like a conversation for #trains.
19:25:45 <Taneb> OK, 800 there and back
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19:26:00 <shachaf> Taneb: whoa whoa whoa
19:26:02 <Taneb> In late September, on British Airways
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19:26:10 <shachaf> You want me to pay for a flight back, too?
19:26:26 <Taneb> Well, BA there, AA back, there direct, back via Dallas
19:26:34 <Taneb> shachaf, I did say my flights
19:26:35 <pikhq> Well, customs gets pissy when you don't have a visa and don't have a return flight.
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19:26:51 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but mind you, some of that stuff was probably built when the city was smaller and is very hard to change now
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19:27:13 <b_jonas> like, in Budapest, trains can enter from three directions, somewhat corresponding to the three main railway station endpoints but not completely,
19:27:21 <ais523> b_jonas: actually, what happened with Birmingham Moor Street was, they had a reasonably large station there
19:27:39 <ais523> then decided they needed a through line, which they built a bit too far from the station, and so they made a new Moor Street station and closed the old one
19:27:49 <ais523> and then it grew enough that nowadays they use both stations
19:27:54 <ais523> and made them into one continuous building
19:28:35 <b_jonas> and this results in two big cuts in Pest cutting it to three pieces, where there's only train tracks in the cuts, and other vehicles can't cross at all, because no road can cross the trains, and even pedestrians can't go through
19:29:00 <b_jonas> so if you look at the car map of Budapest, there's basically the Danube which you can cross only on bridges, plus a smaller cut from the two mountains, plus these two big cuts
19:29:11 <b_jonas> and it's even worse by bus
19:29:45 <b_jonas> so for any place in Pest that's not in the city, the route there is obvious:
19:29:48 <b_jonas> by bus that is
19:30:20 <b_jonas> if it's near Újpest, to the north of Rákosrendező, you have to take metro 3 to the north then change to a bus;
19:30:37 <b_jonas> if it's in the middle between Rákosrendező and Keleti, take metro 2 and change to a bus;
19:30:50 <b_jonas> if it's on the south, take metro 3 to the south and then take a bus.
19:31:27 <b_jonas> all three metros don't reach far enough, so a large part of the outer town is covered by buses only from the terminus of the metro or two or three other metro stations close to the terminus
19:31:37 <ais523> b_jonas: is the metro a sort of local train line? and does it run underground?
19:31:49 <ais523> (the word "metro" is used for a huge number of different things in English)
19:31:53 <b_jonas> yes, the metro is mostly undreground,
19:32:04 <b_jonas> it does come up to the surface near some of the ends
19:32:36 <b_jonas> there's now three of them, metro 3 is the biggest and covers north and south, and is underground everywhere except the very end at south
19:33:29 <b_jonas> metro 2 covers east and comes up to above ground near the end for the last two stations,
19:33:48 <ais523> hmm
19:33:54 <ais523> London has way more than 3 underground lines
19:34:19 <b_jonas> metro 2 also goes a bit to north-Buda, which is traditionally considered the rich part of Budapest, so most people have cars, but for those who don't, the tram lines are getting somewhat improved in the future hopefully,
19:34:22 <ais523> whereas Birmingham doesn't have an underground system, but has an above-ground train system that links to pretty much all areas of the city, also one tram
19:34:31 <b_jonas> and metro 4 is new and covers south-Buda
19:35:00 <Taneb> Newcastle has a weird undergroundy overgroundy thing with poor coverage of the west of the city
19:35:03 <ais523> (some of the lines go underground very near the centre, but they're all /mostly/ above-ground)
19:35:06 <Taneb> York has nothing of the sort
19:35:27 <b_jonas> technically there's also metro line 1 which is different, it covers only the city, and isn't deep underground, but immediately below roads
19:35:54 <ais523> London's underground lines get deeper and deeper the newer they are
19:36:07 <ais523> the really old ones, they just cut the ground open, built the line, then built a roof over it
19:36:22 <ais523> the newest ones they're boring through rock
19:36:35 <b_jonas> there are also HÉVs, which are trains that _should_ ideally be continuation of the metros that cover the farther parts of the town and the agglomeration,
19:36:40 <ais523> and sometimes it takes longer to walk down to the train line, then back up again at the destination, than it takes the train to get from station to statin
19:36:47 <b_jonas> and ideally should be just the continuation of the metros,
19:36:58 <b_jonas> but there's two problems with that idea,
19:37:21 <b_jonas> one is that some of them are placed inconveniently and don't match the metros, but only trams,
19:37:46 <b_jonas> and the other is that for all kinds of stupid policy reasons they just can't be converted to get connected with the metro even where it could work.
19:40:20 <b_jonas> and they all go above ground, but they're not metro because, and they're also not train which anyone can tell from how you need different tickets, there's no toilets on the carriages, the rules for bicycles is different, and the tracks have designated directions, namely right hand side on most lines, but left hand side on the eastbound lines.
19:40:43 <b_jonas> so basically, there's metros and HÉV and trams and they're unconnectible and don't ever form a sane system.
19:42:03 <b_jonas> s/trams/trains/
19:43:19 <b_jonas> the trams are actually different
19:43:39 <b_jonas> trams work like road traffic, they often have to wait for traffic lights together with cars, or even wait for cars to pass,
19:44:29 <b_jonas> whereas road traffic always has to yield to trains and HÉV at level crossings because those can't stop.
19:44:46 <b_jonas> but the metro and HÉV situation is just stupid and traditional
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19:59:44 <FireFly> In Stockholm we have two relatively shallow lines, one deeper line behind those two, and then they're building a commuter rail tunnel that's going to go below /that/ line
19:59:59 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
20:00:05 <shachaf> You're in Stockholm?
20:00:08 <FireFly> Yes
20:00:18 <FireFly> I thought you knew that
20:00:51 <shachaf> I thought you were in .fi.
20:00:57 <shachaf> I might be confusing you with someone else.
20:00:57 <FireFly> Nope
20:01:02 <FireFly> Probably, yeah
20:01:22 <shachaf> I was in Stockholm once. Twice.
20:01:45 <FireFly> What did you do here?
20:01:54 <shachaf> I was 3 years old the first time.
20:02:05 <FireFly> I think it's a pretty boring city, but I guess that's because I'm just too used to it
20:02:07 <FireFly> Ah.
20:02:42 <shachaf> The second time we went to one or more museums.
20:02:55 <shachaf> I must've been 15 years old.
20:03:01 <shachaf> Museums aren't usually my thing.
20:03:08 <FireFly> Perhaps you saw our excellent example of engineering; a ship that broke after a couple km
20:03:17 <shachaf> That was the one.
20:03:35 <FireFly> It's probably the most popular museum here
20:03:54 <shachaf> I also met some friends and/or relations.
20:05:34 <olsner> I was also surprised about FireFly being in stockholm, but I think I was confusing you with Vorpal
20:06:21 <FireFly> I remember Vorpal being in the middle of the forest somewhere
20:06:29 <FireFly> Maybe in Värmland or something? I don't know
20:07:02 <olsner> I think he told me some time, but I don't remember where
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21:04:26 <ais523> huh, xkcd was in an esolangy mood recently: http://xkcd.com/1537/
21:04:50 <ais523> I thought those examples might be from an actual language for a while, but clearly they aren't
21:04:56 <ais523> thus, must definitely be in esolang territory
21:10:46 <nys> i think it might be a take on that javascript wat thing
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21:11:08 <ais523> or PHP
21:11:17 <ais523> many languages do that sort of thing, but not so extreme
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21:13:12 <Taneb> ais523, we had a discussion trying to figure it out
21:13:42 <ais523> I don't think there /is/ a pattern, and I think that's the point
21:14:02 <shachaf> `wisdom
21:14:03 <HackEgo> recursion/You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
21:15:07 <Taneb> ais523, [1], [2], [4], are just weird casting, [13] is just an unusual floor function
21:15:19 <Taneb> [5] I think is oddly greedy quote marks
21:15:28 <Taneb> [3] is normal
21:15:33 <shachaf> `wisdom
21:15:33 <ais523> [5] is great
21:15:34 <HackEgo> lie/Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
21:15:44 <Taneb> [10] is working out the line number + 2
21:15:51 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
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21:16:11 <Taneb> [11] add 2 to the number 2, so whenever there is a 2 in the future there is a 4 instead (see [12]^W[14])
21:16:11 <ais523> I can't explain [2] with weird cast rules though
21:16:22 <ais523> Taneb: oh, 11 is Forte-style? I missed that
21:16:58 <Taneb> ais523, I think it's casting "2" to an int, then to a list of ints, then appending the two lists, then turning the whole thing into a string
21:17:16 <ais523> Taneb: exactly, there's no reason to turn the whole thing into a string at the end
21:17:24 <ais523> other than that a string was involved to start with
21:17:30 <Taneb> I did specify weird casting rules, right?
21:17:45 <ais523> or, maybe this is an everything-is-a-string language like Perl is when it doesn't leak implementation details?
21:18:12 <Taneb> I don't really know what [6] through [8] are doing, though
21:18:21 <ais523> IMO, philosophically, in Perl, if you write (say) 10 that's really just sugar for the string "10", and the fact that it's stored internally as an int is an implementation detail
21:18:43 <Taneb> Well, [8] is making fun of IEEE floating point
21:18:46 <ais523> Taneb: in [8], the idea is that the denominator is approximately 0
21:18:54 <ais523> thus, dividing 2 by it gives you a NaN with a rounding error
21:19:08 <ais523> (although that specific example doesn't work because it's using powers of 2)
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22:30:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hppavilion1 * New user account
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22:36:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Damarok]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43214 * Hppavilion1 * (+243) Created Article (I'm so sorry)
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22:37:56 <hppavilion1> </damarok>
22:42:11 <hppavilion1> Hello?
22:45:56 <ais523> hi
22:47:42 <shachaf> `wisdom
22:48:00 <HackEgo> off by two/An off by two error is what happens when you expect an off by one error but compensate in the wrong direction
22:48:16 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/off by two
22:48:22 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott olsner
22:49:14 <shachaf> `wisdom
22:49:16 <HackEgo> mroman_/mroman_ is probably mroman but you can never be sure. (NSFW)
22:49:22 -!- monotone has joined.
22:50:04 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/culprit
22:50:07 <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
22:51:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43215&oldid=42034 * Hppavilion1 * (+403) /* Category: Libraries */ new section
22:51:47 <pikhq> It feels a bit like magic sometimes, cooking.
22:52:20 <pikhq> I mean, somehow some flour, salt, baking powder, butter, milk, and sausage turned into biscuits and gravy.
22:52:54 <hppavilion1> Oh
22:52:59 <hppavilion1> That's cool
22:53:07 <hppavilion1> It notified you whesomething
22:57:46 <hppavilion1> When something happens
22:58:18 <hppavilion1> They better have programmed that in modified BrainFuck or something
22:59:00 <pikhq> HackEgo is weird, but in a way different from what you expect.
22:59:21 <pikhq> Each command is a Linux program. It spawns a Linux kernel, runs that program, and outputs the result.
22:59:38 <pikhq> Now, if you want an esolang bot, you need look no further than fungot.
22:59:38 <fungot> pikhq: depends on the order i described it roughly earlier. have a happy fnord i am
22:59:41 <pikhq> fungot is in Befunge.
22:59:41 <fungot> pikhq: as a fnord
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23:00:48 <hppavilion1> I love befunge
23:00:51 -!- Herbalist has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:00:57 <pikhq> It's a pretty neat language.
23:01:04 <hppavilion1> I tried implementing it yesterday
23:01:12 <hppavilion1> Hello World won't work
23:01:31 <ais523> hppavilion1: -93 or -98?
23:01:32 <hppavilion1> I promised anyone reading my commits I'd get it working today...
23:01:36 <ais523> anyway, if you haven't seen it yet
23:01:37 <hppavilion1> 98
23:01:40 <ais523> get hold of a copy of Mycology
23:01:46 <ais523> it'll catch a ton of common mistakes
23:01:46 <hppavilion1> I heard about it
23:01:48 <ais523> `? mycology
23:01:49 <HackEgo> mycology? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:01:56 <ais523> why do we not have actually useful information in the learndb? :-(
23:02:12 <hppavilion1> I was reading the ideas list
23:02:45 <ais523> `learn mycology is a Befunge-98 (also -93 to some extent) testsuite that can be found at https://deewiant.iki.fi/projects/mycology/
23:02:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'mycology': mycology is a Befunge-98 (also -93 to some extent) testsuite that can be found at https://deewiant.iki.fi/projects/mycology/
23:02:55 <pikhq> Befunge-98 is kinda hard to implement.
23:02:56 <ais523> hppavilion1: definitely read that, it'll probably tell you what your interp is doing wrong
23:03:09 <hppavilion1> And stumled across an idea for a language called Darmok
23:03:13 <pikhq> Befunge-93 is not very hard, but it's also not that interesting to have an implementation for. :)
23:03:34 <hppavilion1> So I created a page for it. I apologized in the notes
23:03:44 <ais523> Befunge-98 is a great language to impl, though
23:03:51 <ais523> there are several Mycology-passing interps now I think
23:03:56 <hppavilion1> Darmok, if you aren't aware, is an episode of ST:TNG. Apparently
23:04:05 <hppavilion1> Though probably almost no compilers :P
23:04:37 <hppavilion1> In Darmok, they encouter a species that communicates completely through metaphors and references to local mythology
23:04:43 <hppavilion1> Or something like that
23:04:54 <hppavilion1> They take a while to figure it out
23:04:54 <pikhq> True. It's hard to implement, but hard to implement in interesting ways.
23:04:58 <hppavilion1> Yep
23:05:05 <pikhq> And a Befunge-98 implementation can actually do neat things.
23:05:55 <hppavilion1> "Terminate Sibling" for example, would be CAIN AND ABEL IN THE GARDEN (if "terminate sibling" is even a real command)
23:06:24 <ais523> it's actually an operation that can be done on threads that makes sense, and might potentially be slightly useful on occasion
23:06:25 <pikhq> What, though, does DARMOK AND JILAD AT TENAGRA mean?
23:06:33 <hppavilion1> Yep
23:06:41 <hppavilion1> I don't know
23:06:45 <ais523> e.g. if you're doing some sort of threaded exhaustive search and only need one result
23:06:53 <pikhq> Or, indeed, GILGAMESH AND ENKIDU AT URUK?
23:07:05 <hppavilion1> I think that Damarok the language would also only reference real mythology
23:07:08 <hppavilion1> One sec
23:07:16 <hppavilion1> I don't remember how the epic of gilgamesh goes
23:07:31 * pikhq was just referencing the episode; don't mind me
23:07:35 <ais523> the problem isn't so much finding something for your commands to do, though, but finding some way to express the commands you need
23:07:41 <hppavilion1> Yes
23:07:42 <hppavilion1> Libraries
23:07:48 <ais523> or, well, you can just add a ton of commands and hope they add up to something TC
23:07:53 <ais523> (see: initial Snowflake)
23:07:56 <hppavilion1> The problem would be that there would ALWAYS be libraries needed
23:08:04 <hppavilion1> And everyone would implement them differently
23:08:06 <ais523> actually that was awkward because I needed a pretty exact amount of computational power
23:08:41 <hppavilion1> So they'd need to implement the entirety of some libraries on their own
23:09:13 <ais523> hppavilion1: that's not so dissimilar from INTERCAL, we solved the problem by encouraging people to submit them to a centralised repo
23:09:14 <hppavilion1> I think to terminate a sibling you would type "CAIN AND ABEL IN THE GARDEN, WHERE ABEL IS <sibling>"
23:09:21 <hppavilion1> Yep
23:09:24 <ais523> so they could use each other's libraries
23:09:24 <hppavilion1> Aaaaaah
23:09:29 <hppavilion1> That makes sense
23:09:41 <ais523> (even more a problem in INTERCAL because all line numbers are global, so you need to avoid clashes between different libaries)
23:09:56 <hppavilion1> Oh :/
23:10:24 <hppavilion1> So I think that every statement would have two clauses (well, one main clause and an arguments clause), separated by the comma
23:10:33 <hppavilion1> The COMMAND clause and the WHERE clause
23:10:48 <hppavilion1> The command clause is the reference to mythology
23:11:21 <hppavilion1> And the WHERE clause is substitutions (which are needed for formality)
23:11:44 <hppavilion1> So "CAIN AND ABEL IN THE GARDEN, WHERE ABEL IS <sibling>" means to kill a process of name <sibling>
23:12:13 <hppavilion1> "CAIN AND ABEL IN THE GARDEN" alone would... I don't know... Kill the next sibling sequentially?
23:12:20 <hppavilion1> And commands are separated by newlines
23:12:21 <ais523> <Deewiant> mycology.b98 tests every fingerprint that I am aware of, apart from FNGR, SGNL, and WIND. ← it doesn't test IFFI :-(
23:13:17 <hppavilion1> Of course that doesn't account for complex statements...
23:13:23 <ais523> I think IFFI postdates Mycology, though
23:14:16 <hppavilion1> Name a famous decision from popular folklore/mythology
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23:15:29 <ais523> crossing the Rubicon? although that's more historical rather than mythological
23:15:56 <hppavilion1> Don't know what that was. Let me check
23:17:27 <ais523> Julius Caesar taking his part of the Roman Army into Italy (which was totally illegal), thus sparking a civil war
23:17:34 <hppavilion1> CEASER CROSSING THE RUBICON, WHERE CONDITION IS <condition> AND CROSSING IS:\n\t<stuff to do>
23:17:42 <hppavilion1> Or something like that
23:17:55 <ais523> hppavilion1: note that you don't really want to just design an imperative language with the keywords swapped out
23:18:06 <hppavilion1> I know
23:18:07 <ais523> because it isn't really interesting
23:18:12 <hppavilion1> This is just a prototype
23:18:12 <hppavilion1> I know
23:18:18 <hppavilion1> I hate langs like that
23:18:33 <hppavilion1> But I'm currently just creating some basic ideas
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23:20:10 <ais523> huh, there's an interesting debate about what exactly Caesar said when crossing the river
23:20:19 <hppavilion1> http://github.com/hppavilion1/Damarok
23:20:22 <hppavilion1> There
23:20:25 <ais523> although it's widely agreed how it's translated into English, there's some debate about the word order of the original and whether it was in Latin or Greek
23:20:42 <hppavilion1> That's the repo where we'll put code
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23:24:23 <hppavilion1_> I'm back
23:24:37 <hppavilion1_> Now I have an _ in my name :/
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23:26:43 <hppavilion1_> So
23:27:04 <hppavilion1_> What can we do to make it less keyword-swapout-y
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23:28:40 <hppavilion1_> Ideally it'd be able to take a set of metaphors and interpret what they mean, but that'd require a prize-winning AI that probably would lag normal computers to hell
23:29:44 <coppro> `wisdom intercal
23:29:45 <HackEgo> ​ /The final frontier.
23:30:09 <shachaf> `wisdom doesn't work that way hth
23:30:10 <HackEgo> shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj/shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj is the reason why the USA don't use the metric system.
23:30:17 <hppavilion1_> `wisdom walrus
23:30:19 <HackEgo> relevant info/The large-eyed mouse lemur is a nocturnal tree-dweller.
23:30:19 <shachaf> Should `wisdom be merged with `? ?
23:30:36 <hppavilion1_> `wisdom YOUR MUM
23:30:37 <HackEgo> fiora/Fiora is half JRPG fangirl, half SIMD dork, and all sucrose. She's a sous-chef who shushes sushi.
23:31:04 <FireFly> I'm pretty sure Fiora isn't shachaf's mum
23:31:10 <ais523> coppro: you probably meant `?
23:31:13 <hppavilion1_> `wisdom wisdom
23:31:14 <HackEgo> twh/twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
23:31:15 <hppavilion1_> I think I broke it :P
23:31:19 <hppavilion1_> No
23:31:23 <FireFly> No, it doesn't take any parameter
23:31:27 <ais523> hppavilion1_: hint: `wisdom ignores any arguments
23:31:30 <ais523> `? wisdom
23:31:31 <coppro> `? intercal
23:31:35 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
23:31:38 <HackEgo> INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market.
23:31:47 <pikhq> Huh, it's been a while since Fiora's been here, hasn't it?
23:31:49 <FireFly> `? øvrigt
23:31:49 <HackEgo> ​øvrigt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:31:56 <coppro> `? c++
23:31:57 <HackEgo> Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.
23:32:01 <FireFly> pikhq: yeah, I think she left around the time when kmc left
23:32:02 <hppavilion1_> `wisdom
23:32:03 <coppro> `? java
23:32:12 <HackEgo> java? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:32:13 <HackEgo> zork/Zork is like York, except for the first letter.
23:32:15 <hppavilion1_> `help
23:32:15 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:32:19 <pikhq> kmc left too? Nooooo
23:32:29 <pikhq> What's next, no ehird?
23:32:30 <coppro> `learn java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures
23:32:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'java': java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures
23:32:39 <hppavilion1_> `learn
23:32:40 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/learn: line 3: wisdom/: Is a directory \ Learned '':
23:33:03 <ais523> even I've been known to leave this channel for long periods of time, because it wasn't ontopic enough
23:33:06 <ais523> although it's been fine recently
23:33:15 <hppavilion1_> `learn yo mama so fat, insert joke here
23:33:17 <HackEgo> Learned 'yo': yo mama so fat, insert joke here
23:33:26 <shachaf> `revert
23:33:28 <hppavilion1_> OK
23:33:31 <hppavilion1_> I'm done
23:33:35 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
23:33:35 <ais523> shachaf: I was about to `revert but I think we might have reverted each other
23:33:44 <FireFly> alas, it's undone
23:33:54 <ais523> we /still/ have a broken canary in the system somewhere?
23:33:56 <hppavilion1_> `? java
23:33:56 <HackEgo> java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures
23:34:05 <FireFly> Yeah, it seems it messed up the history somehow
23:34:05 <hppavilion1_> `? you
23:34:08 <HackEgo> you a haskell
23:34:10 <hppavilion1_> `? yo
23:34:11 <HackEgo> yo? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:34:12 <FireFly> or rather, it's messed up because of the history, somehow
23:34:38 <hppavilion1_> `learn haskell is the most beautiful language ever invented
23:34:42 <hppavilion1_> `? haskell
23:35:02 * FireFly wonders if hppavilion1_'s client chose a nick based on the computer's name, or if it's an actual nickname
23:35:24 <hppavilion1_> I chose the nick when I was 7 and didn't want to forget my username
23:35:30 <HackEgo> No output.
23:35:33 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
23:35:33 <FireFly> I see
23:35:35 <hppavilion1_> It's usually hppavilion1, but my browser timed out
23:35:44 <FireFly> You can /nick hppavilion1
23:35:50 -!- hppavilion1_ has changed nick to hppavilion1.
23:35:54 <hppavilion1> Yay
23:35:58 <hppavilion1> I'm normal now
23:36:03 <FireFly> It annoys me that my brain lexes it as hpp|avilion|1
23:36:13 <hppavilion1> Heh
23:36:47 <hppavilion1> h-p-pavilion-one
23:37:22 <hppavilion1> `help
23:37:22 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:37:34 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/yo
23:37:36 <HackEgo> changeset: 5605:a4afa9eaa9ff \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Wed Jun 17 23:35:10 2015 +0000 \ summary: <hppavilion1_> learn yo mama so fat, insert joke here
23:37:38 <shachaf> This is interesting.
23:37:42 <shachaf> `cat wisdom/yo
23:37:42 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/yo: No such file or directory
23:37:45 <shachaf> `` hg cat wisdom/yo
23:37:46 <HackEgo> yo mama so fat, insert joke here
23:38:08 <hppavilion1> So
23:38:17 <shachaf> It seems that revert isn't actually working.
23:38:29 <shachaf> Or it isn't modifying the hg repository, even if it's modifying the working directory?
23:38:37 <hppavilion1> We're designing an EsoLang called Damarok
23:38:46 <shachaf> fizzie: what's going on twh
23:39:26 <hppavilion1> It is kewlzez
23:39:49 <hppavilion1> It uses references to mythology and metaphor
23:40:08 <hppavilion1> I have no clue how to implement it short of brute force regexes
23:40:28 <FireFly> That sounds like an inefficient implementation
23:40:35 <hppavilion1> It would be
23:40:49 <hppavilion1> Well, sorted dictionary regexes
23:41:02 <hppavilion1> Not literal brute force
23:43:14 <hppavilion1> And I suppose it would only sort #included libs
23:44:29 <hppavilion1> So it isn't TOO inefficient
23:44:39 <shachaf> FireFly: also you should set up /hilight on ireFly\b
23:45:03 <hppavilion1> It's more of a thought experiment language and something to use for mindbendingness, not for implementing stuff
23:45:20 <FireFly> shachaf: I probably should, just for you. What channel did I miss it in now?
23:45:31 <shachaf> who knows
23:45:56 <shachaf> How many are you in?
23:46:16 <hppavilion1> I just use 1 because it's soooo much easier
23:47:06 <hppavilion1> And I'm new to IRC
23:50:52 <tswett> I'm not sure that my newer SLOBOL language can be run faster than double exponential time.
23:51:16 <hppavilion1> 0.o
23:51:21 <hppavilion1> Double exponential time!?
23:51:40 * hppavilion1 DDGs double exponential time, though he's pretty sure he knows what it means
23:52:52 <shachaf> double exponential time is exponential time approximated with double-precision floating point arithmetic
23:52:53 <hppavilion1> Yup
23:52:56 <hppavilion1> Oh
23:53:07 <shachaf> `wisdom
23:53:08 <HackEgo> macabre/The Macabres have been the hereditary rulers of Lochaber for 3 centuries.
23:53:11 <hppavilion1> I thought it was x^(y^z)
23:53:31 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:53:33 <tswett> shachaf is joking.
23:53:37 <hppavilion1> Oh
23:53:48 <hppavilion1> Jokes don't go through text very well
23:53:57 <hppavilion1> For me, at least
23:54:01 <hppavilion1> At least that kind
23:54:14 <hppavilion1> That SPECIFIC joke doesn't translate
23:54:32 <hppavilion1> `walrus
23:54:33 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: walrus: not found
23:54:41 <hppavilion1> `kill
23:54:45 <HackEgo> ​ \ Usage: \ kill [options] <pid> [...] \ \ Options: \ <pid> [...] send signal to every <pid> listed \ -<signal>, -s, --signal <signal> \ specify the <signal> to be sent \ -l, --list=[<signal>] list all signal names, or convert one to a name \ -L, --table list all signal names in a nice table \
23:54:51 <tswett> If a SLOBOL program contains n points, then the easiest upper bound on the number of ways of executing the program is (3^n)!.
23:55:04 <hppavilion1> Ah
23:55:17 <hppavilion1> (3^b)! !?
23:55:28 <tswett> (3^b)!, if b = n.
23:55:29 <hppavilion1> I must now open wolfram alpha and see that graphed
23:56:01 <hppavilion1> OW
23:56:03 <hppavilion1> *Wow
23:56:38 <hppavilion1> O(70) at ~1
23:56:40 <tswett> For 0, it's 1; for 1, it's 6; for 2, it's 362880; for 3, it's 10888869450418352160768000000; for 4, it's 5797126020747367985879734231578109105412357244731625958745865049716390179693892056256184534249745940480000000000000000000; and so on.
23:57:09 <hppavilion1> Wow
23:57:16 <hppavilion1> That's slooooooooow
23:57:19 <tswett> This is just for a naive implementation, though.
23:57:20 <hppavilion1> What language did you use?
23:57:28 <tswett> I haven't actually implemented it.
23:57:30 <hppavilion1> Oh
23:57:40 <hppavilion1> What language do you plan to use?
23:57:47 <tswett> I'm not planning to implement it, either.
23:57:47 <hppavilion1> If you plan to do it
23:57:59 <hppavilion1> I guess it wouldn't be very effective :P
23:58:06 * hppavilion1 facepalms himsel
23:58:07 <hppavilion1> f
23:58:34 <shachaf> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / leave them perplexed
23:58:47 <hppavilion1> Fair enough
23:58:55 <shachaf> hm, in retrospect that could be seen as slightly rude tdnh
23:59:02 <hppavilion1> It could
23:59:04 <hppavilion1> But I'm fine with it
23:59:10 <hppavilion1> Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait
23:59:18 <hppavilion1> :P
23:59:41 <shachaf> s/leave them/be left/
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