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00:21:30 <madbr> trying to prove that chess is turing complete (given a board with an infinitely repeating periodic portion)
00:22:03 <madbr> I have this as a "conveyor belt" to force the white king to move along a path:
00:22:09 <madbr> http://pastebin.com/V8fQu11y
00:22:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Phase]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43475&oldid=43424 * Phase * (+14) /* Jackass */ I did that thang
00:22:34 <madbr> black has to check that white king every move or else he gets checkmated
00:24:04 <madbr> I also have to figure out how to do a wire crossing and a memory cell
00:24:45 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure having a side have more than one king is cheating
00:26:17 <madbr> I'm trying to figure out the easier version (with multiple checkmatable kings) first
00:26:21 <oerjan> there's some kind of proof that chess is something-big-complete with arbitrary finite boardsize, it might be possible to adapt that
00:27:51 <madbr> it's also possible that I might have to do some processing in the infinitely repeating section instead of just using it as an infinite tape
00:28:23 <madbr> mostly if processing requires something non-undoable like pawn movement (for instance if you keep the 50 move rule)
00:29:20 <Jafet> Generalised chess is supposedly EXPTIME-complete (on square boards)
00:29:29 <madbr> intuitively it has to be possible to build a turing machive out of this, if they figured out how to do it in the game of life...
00:29:34 <Jafet> Not sure what kind of generalisation it is
00:30:09 <madbr> if you invent new pieces it becomes too easy
00:30:29 <Jafet> The initial layout surely matters as well.
00:30:38 <madbr> so it's more a challenge of requiring as few extra rules as possible
00:30:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43476&oldid=43474 * Phase * (+329) more operations
00:31:13 <madbr> yeah basically the initial layout is the program
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00:38:24 <madbr> the reason for multikings is that otherwise it's really hard to keep rooks on the same line
00:49:46 <madbr> hmm, if you need non-undoable stuff like pawn movement or captures, you possibly need a 2d infinite grid instead of just a 1d infinite section
00:50:06 <madbr> to process along one dimension and store data along the other
00:52:05 <Jafet> How does a turing machine work in a competitive game, anyway
00:53:10 <Jafet> Do you fix white to play and win (or not lose) and then interpret the moves as output
00:56:25 * oerjan wonders if wikipedia has had an article as front page feature for a second time before
00:56:40 <Jafet> There's the malbolge version, I guess: the programmer gives a position, then the interpreter chooses an arbitrary optimal move for each side
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00:56:49 <madbr> not exactly sure but if the white player can force a win, the machine halts
00:56:54 <Jafet> So e.g. to make a truth machine, the programmer needs to set up a forced draw
00:57:13 <madbr> actually you can probably get a single binary output
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00:57:40 <madbr> can the white player force a win?
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00:58:00 <madbr> or can the black player force a win?
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00:59:49 <Jafet> Or designate some pieces as outputs, so any move of those pieces outputs a white or black bit
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01:01:51 <madbr> or you can designate some paths
01:02:11 <madbr> and if the king moves on the left path, outputs 1, if it moves on the right path, outputs 0
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01:02:56 <madbr> but for turing completeness I think even only halt vs non-halt is sufficient
01:03:29 <madbr> since you can put in the input program which of the output bits you want to output
01:03:35 <madbr> and make a multibit output
01:04:02 <madbr> and then in the input program you also have a bit that says if you're testing the current output bit for 0 or 1
01:04:12 <madbr> and if it matches, halt, if it doesn't match, loop
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01:04:48 <madbr> and then you race both versions against each other and the one that halts first gives you the answer
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01:18:43 <izabera> what do you do when you add a ton of code that's supposed to replace a different ton of code but when you do it everything breaks?
01:23:01 <Jafet> Such is the capricious nature of code.
01:25:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43477&oldid=43476 * Phase * (+280) /* Operation List */ More operations
01:29:20 <Jafet> There should be apprenticeships for code: young, agile code can learn a lot by working under mature code (perhaps even a "master")
01:30:17 <madbr> I guess it's a question of size
01:30:24 <madbr> maybe your problem is big
01:30:43 <madbr> and the solution is going to be messy no matter what
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02:29:11 <oren> You can apparently register a domain name in the cook islands with a .co. to get .co.ck at the end of your domain name
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02:40:09 <oren> If your code is modular, perhaps you can run both solutions, and log when the new code
02:40:22 <oren> gives an answer different from the old
02:42:05 * oerjan *so* tempted to do a "you should have used haskell" joke
02:43:26 <oerjan> its strong flexible typing makes refactoring unusually painless hth
02:43:59 <oerjan> the disadvantage is you have to learn to use it first, which is not as painless.
02:44:40 <izabera> my refactoring will be painless as soon as i fix the bug
02:44:55 <oerjan> (just use a year or three to learn haskell, and afterward refactoring will be painless.)
02:45:48 <oerjan> well type system and purity / referential transparency
02:46:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wire-crossing problem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43478&oldid=20511 * 174.109.246.19 * (+1125) /* Possible proof of planarity turing completeness? */ new section
02:46:59 <izabera> typeless languages have their merits
02:47:11 <oerjan> yes, but not for refactoring.
02:52:31 <izabera> still wondering what types have to do with refactoring
02:53:09 <oerjan> they make it likely that the compiler will complain if you move something to the wrong spot
02:55:04 <oerjan> note that in haskell you don't just type ordinary values, but also actions
02:55:21 <izabera> i'm the queen of refactoring
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03:15:59 <Sgeo_> oerjan, how about Factor? It lets you factor into smaller pieces without as much worry about types
03:16:15 <Sgeo_> Although changing things outright could still be an issue
03:21:34 <oerjan> well i don't really know factor, but concatenative with dynamic types doesn't immediately encourage me
03:22:53 <oren> why are .co.uk domains so cheap?
03:25:04 <oerjan> ooh they actually changed the /r/haskell CSS, just as i was reloading the tab about it to finish reading it...
03:28:38 <zzo38> Due to the input syntax you will not necessarily get perfect idempotency for free with RDF, although depending on what needs to be done, in some cases the schema can be defined so that it does not matter; you can also easily avoid it in the input files in the cases where it does matter, for example by using absolute URIs based on a canonical name or whatever.
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04:00:49 <oren> there. no more using stupid webhosting sites. from now on I'll just upload things to my own website
04:01:30 <izabera> http://arin.ga/X3Sh9D/raw at least one of these is wrong, can you help me find it please? >.<
04:04:32 <izabera> it's the output of my brainfuck thingy, trying to optimize the multiplication loops
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04:09:47 <oerjan> i dunno but it seems a bit useless to have more than one i adjustment in each inner loop
04:10:13 <oerjan> oh wait that's the before optimization version
04:10:30 <oerjan> right now, izabera's brainfuck compiler
04:11:20 <izabera> they all look correct to me :(
04:12:06 <izabera> my bf compiler is not working correctly, that's what's going wrong >.>
04:12:42 <oerjan> the first one does look correct...
04:12:53 <Walpurgisnacht> Well you can compile boyfriend because that's cheating that might be what's going wrong But brainfuck compilers not working are another issue
04:13:20 <izabera> is there an esoteric language called boyfriend?
04:15:23 <oerjan> second looks correct...
04:17:46 <izabera> there must be something else that's wrong
04:18:13 <Walpurgisnacht> cry into the source files throw it into a volcano and pray
04:19:54 <izabera> < (( tape[i+1] = (tape[i+1] - tape[i] * 1) & 255, tape[i] = 0 ));
04:19:58 <izabera> > (( tape[i+1] = (tape[i+1] + tape[i] * -1) & 255 , tape[i] = 0 ));
04:20:00 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:14: parse error on input ‘=’
04:23:44 <oerjan> izabera: that's not _necessarily_ incorrect
04:24:08 <oerjan> although maybe it's wrong syntax for what it tries to do
04:24:31 <oerjan> i was about to say, maybe some of those shell commands don't do what you expect them to
04:24:57 <oerjan> and i don't know shell well enough to say
04:27:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binary lambda calculus]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43479&oldid=35937 * Phase * (-7) update link
04:30:36 <Jafet> bf, the best friend language
04:34:01 <izabera> nope fixed that and it's still wrong
04:35:13 <oerjan> looked at the bash operator table and i still see nothing
04:36:03 <oerjan> are you sure you're running the right test files :P
04:37:19 <oerjan> hey it's happened to people before!
04:38:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Useless]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43480&oldid=37483 * Phase * (+91) add link to codegolf interpreters
04:42:39 <oerjan> "If subscript evaluates to a number less than zero, it is used as an offset from one greater than the array's maximum index (so a subcript of -1 refers to the last element of the array). "
04:43:08 <oerjan> izabera: how big is your tape array?
04:43:45 <izabera> up to 2*31-1 elements to the right
04:43:52 <pikhq> What a day, what a day.
04:44:07 <oerjan> well i mean, how big is it initialized to be
04:44:40 <izabera> that's fine i'm sure that this part works >.>
04:46:12 <oren> why not right a test to be really really sure
04:46:21 <oren> s/right/write/
04:46:57 <oerjan> izabera: what i'm wondering is if you're using actual negative indices at any tie
04:47:12 <izabera> i understand that, and the answer is no
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04:47:40 <izabera> jk i'm pretty sure i'm not using any negative index
04:48:04 <oerjan> to check, you could assign 0 to a large index before you start, i think
04:48:59 <oren_> the reverse dns isn't picking up my domain name
04:49:02 <oerjan> it's the only idea i've got given what i've seen so far, anyway
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04:49:29 <oren_> it shoud have said oren@orenwatson.be
04:50:46 <oerjan> are you suddenly belgian
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04:51:00 <oren> no but .be is very cheap
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04:51:44 <oren> and yet not so cheap as to make me look shady
04:52:06 <oren> like orenwatson.cx or orenwatson.me or some crap\
04:52:49 <izabera> oerjan: tried that, same problem
04:53:38 <oerjan> oren: for those who _want_ to look shady, i wonder how cheap syrian addresses are
04:54:29 <oren> .sy is so shasy their registration rules are in a .doc file
04:54:41 <oren> http://www.gobin.info/domainname/sy.doc
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04:58:40 <oren_> heh, there is noticeale latency
04:58:53 <oren> about 1/2 a second
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05:12:02 <oren_cloud> only one. I was on the channel twice before.
05:13:46 <oren_cloud> http://www.orenwatson.be/1436807488.png
05:14:59 <izabera> people still use 80x24 terminals
05:15:52 <oren_cloud> so I can read a website while typing into the temrinal
05:17:14 <oren_cloud> so when I type it goes to the router, my laptop then back to the router, then through some oher stuff to a server in Virginia and then to wherever freenode is
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05:19:00 <HackEgo> mauris__: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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05:48:29 <zzo38> Can you make messages encrypted better if you do not use consistent grammar and not necessarily even correct grammar? It might make it a bit difficult for some people to guess at a part of the plaintext; probably not much if the encryption algorithm is good, but maybe you will use a simple one I don't know
05:49:31 <zzo38> My MegaZeux compression program is now a bit better than DEFLATE
05:58:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, basically you should use good encryption that doesn't have plaintext attacks.
05:59:24 <b_jonas> if you're writing something like English text, it already has so many regularities that a bit of bad grammar won't help much.
05:59:24 <zzo38> But maybe you can't or maybe you are really paranoid (in which case a one time pad is best, but sometimes you cannot do that, and even then you may have to disguise the length of the message too)
06:00:13 <zzo38> Compressing the data first can be one thing you can do, I believe
06:00:31 <zzo38> Still it might have a known header
06:01:11 <b_jonas> If you're paranoid enough to spend time with this, then there are likely already better ways to spend that time to improve security.
06:01:42 <b_jonas> Bad grammar would just lead to misunderstandings, which can defeat your whole purpose of communication.
06:02:05 <zzo38> It doesn't have to be bad enough that it can not be understandable
06:02:13 <zzo38> Only just a little bit bad
06:03:10 <zzo38> But you can also rearrange a few sentences in a few unusual way even if not techinically wrong or difficult at all.
06:05:56 <zzo38> Or as part of the encryption, you might mix up the order of the words even before compression (so that "Dear" does not necessarily come first), it is mixed up more afterward.
06:06:35 <izabera> how do you plan to get back the original text?
06:06:58 <zzo38> You would have to do in a reversible way. You need to add a second key to the encryption in order to do this.
06:07:15 <zzo38> But if you are communicate with someone you have a DVD you can use a one time pad; maybe you use a one time pad that is also encrypted with a password so that if someone steal the DVD then it is still difficult to decrypt it because they do not know the password.
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06:09:25 <zzo38> Or use a second pad stored on the hard disk, which must be combined with the first pad on the DVD, and which in addition requires a password. The encrypted message can include a initialization vector which must be combined with the password in order to decrypt the one time pad.
06:10:14 <oren_cloud> microsd glued to the inside of the envelope of a letter
06:12:49 <rdococ> I'm bored... do you guys have any ideas?
06:17:10 <rdococ> for an esoteric programming language
06:18:42 <rdococ> no, dont ask me to see the wiki page on ideas
06:18:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wiki: not found
06:24:07 <zzo38> I don't know the idea
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07:17:43 <izabera> http://arin.ga/2TN6QZ/raw what's the difference between the commented line and the rest?
07:18:00 <izabera> the bf code they come from is [->>>>+<<[-]<<]
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07:35:19 <izabera> ah got it, in the first case tape[i+2] is zeroed out even if tape[i] is zero
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08:53:18 <mroman_> Why does Facebook want to kill Flash?
08:54:01 <mroman_> Although I'm not opposed to the idea of killing flash as long as the streaming sites switch to using something else playable in browsers.
08:54:22 <mroman_> If they switch to divx-player I'm gonna be mad.
08:54:52 <mroman_> Does the HTML5 Version of YouTube inject ads into videos?
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08:58:11 <mroman_> oh. It still gives you the javascript player
08:58:25 <mroman_> I thought the would just present the video and the browser will have some sort of player built-in.
09:11:45 <Taneb> Ooh, IOCCC announcement
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09:24:59 <mroman_> How does Rust handle multiple files o_O
09:27:40 <mroman_> this allows you to address something with just io::
09:27:51 <mroman_> is that an implicit "use namespace" or something?
09:28:08 <mroman_> apparentely sometimes you have to use mod and sometimes use
09:28:19 <mroman_> mod test; will require you to write test::fun
09:29:06 <mroman_> but you can write use test::fun; and then you can just write fun
09:29:11 <mroman_> but you'd have to do that for every function?
09:29:27 <mroman_> nvm. there's use test::*; apparentely
09:30:49 <Jafet> If you're implementing a java compiler, I wonder if you could get away with treating import commands as regular expressions
09:31:41 <mroman_> it's not allowed to have more than one public class in the same file
09:32:09 <mroman_> and how would you handle package scope then?
09:32:22 <mroman_> there's public, private, protected and default
09:32:36 <Jafet> I mean, import commands are either Foo.Bar or Foo.*
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09:33:07 <Jafet> --which are valid regular expressions.
09:33:08 <mroman_> default meaning "no access modifier"
09:33:14 <mroman_> not "the default access modifier"
09:33:20 <mroman_> for interfaces the default access modifier is "public"
09:34:01 <mroman_> Jafet: wouldn't the dot need escaping?
09:34:37 <Jafet> I didn't say the regular expression would live up to expectations.
09:35:11 <Jafet> Also, that's a different regular expression (which only matches strings like Foo.Bar....)
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10:34:23 <mroman_> Roughly one hour to go for new what if
10:36:15 <boily> mrhelloman_. what if, as in xkcd's what if?
10:37:44 <int-e> what if... it's delayed?
10:38:03 <mroman_> I'm gonna fly to america and slap Randall in the face
10:38:14 <boily> hellint-e. don't jinx it.
10:38:37 <mroman_> or challenge him to a bareknuckle fight.
10:38:39 <b_jonas> mroman_: what? isn't "What If" on a permanent on hold, with a notice that always says it will be back next week?
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10:38:53 <b_jonas> the date will change again within that hour
10:39:00 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, that's what it says now
10:39:05 <b_jonas> it will update to a week later
10:39:37 <mroman_> no, it has always been 14th of July for the last weeks
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10:42:44 <b_jonas> mroman_: hmm, maybe it updates every two or three weeks then?
10:43:15 <b_jonas> oh great! I didn't notice this book
10:44:04 <Taneb> aaaaah the IOCCC people replies to one of my tweets!
10:45:14 <boily> Tanelle. you tweet?
10:45:32 <Taneb> boily, had an account for a while, never really used it much until literally two days ago
10:45:44 <Taneb> Apologies, lambdabot
10:52:12 <Taneb> https://twitter.com/Ngevd/status/620899140835237888
10:52:41 <b_jonas> they already have a date for the next ioccc, when the programs from the previous one isn't even public yet
10:52:49 <b_jonas> and it will start... what when?
10:52:55 <Taneb> b_jonas, they were made public today I think
10:53:09 <Taneb> And I think it will start... SEVEN DAYS BEFORE THEY ANNOUNCED IT
10:54:30 <b_jonas> if it's started, shouldn't that be annoucned on http://www.de.ioccc.org/index.html
10:54:38 <b_jonas> or is the mirror out of date?
10:55:20 <b_jonas> http://www.ioccc.org/index.html has announced the start of the contest
10:55:36 <b_jonas> and they dared to make it overlap with the icfp contest, when that was announced like months ago?
11:02:04 <b_jonas> Taneb: thanks for the note
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11:02:12 <mroman_> oh. new ioccc contest is running?
11:02:17 <Taneb> You too, if you're entering, b_jonas
11:03:14 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, apparently backdated to before they even released the names of the winners of the previous one, and it shows up on only some of the official ioccc mirror sites
11:04:31 <b_jonas> The guidelines says "There are 29 reasons why these guidelines seem obfuscated." but now they're obfuscating even the fact that there's a new contest
11:08:18 <b_jonas> Taneb: and the tweet https://twitter.com/ioccc/status/620875879711780864 is from today too
11:08:45 <b_jonas> apparently they did it to get a funny timestamp or something
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12:08:56 <Jafet> http://www.ioccc.org/png/ioccc.png
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15:59:31 <Taneb> Is depending on GTK or something too much for an IOCCC program?
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16:16:24 <coppro> although actually now that I think about it
16:16:29 <coppro> they've allowed X programs in the past, haven't they?
16:17:19 <Taneb> Nothing in the rules against it
16:17:27 <Taneb> X client entries should avoid using X related libraries and
16:17:27 <Taneb> software that is not in wide spread use.
16:17:37 <Taneb> We don't like entries that use proprietary toolkits such as the M*tif,
16:17:37 <Taneb> Xv*ew, or OpenL*ok toolkits, since not everyone has them. Use of an
16:17:37 <Taneb> open source toolkit that is widely and freely available instead.
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16:18:12 <Taneb> In any case I am having second thoughts about how I want to do rendering
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16:27:08 <coppro> i mean the one with the three colored gears
16:27:27 <Taneb> That is possible to use a library?!?!?
16:38:12 <Taneb> I might even just use Xlib
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17:10:39 <oerjan> <mroman_> No, 14th of July, 7:49 <-- hm is that "coincidentally" the exact time for the new horizon flyby?
17:11:58 * oerjan looks at actual what-if
17:16:45 <oerjan> stupid google is doing that thing where it thinks i prefer norwegian wikipedia again
17:16:59 <oerjan> (and not even putting the english on the first page)
17:17:52 <oerjan> or second, for that matter.
17:19:27 <oerjan> ah wikipedia confirms 7:49 EDT, randall's on the east coast isn't he?
17:20:08 <oerjan> "On July 14, 2015 11:49 UTC (07:49 EDT), the New Horizons spacecraft flew 12,600 km (7,800 mi) from the surface of Pluto."
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17:22:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: conclusion, there was nothing random about the update time whatsoever hth
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21:41:00 <boily> @tell oerjan !najrølleh
21:41:37 <boily> @tell oerjan (please note that I would've liked the slash upon the o to be reversed, but it seems to be too much of a unicodehassle hth)
21:43:35 <lambdabot> CYUL 142100Z 29004KT 15SM BKN055 OVC090 25/19 A2954 RMK SC7AC1 SLP004 DENSITY ALT 1700FT
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21:43:59 <boily> strangely, dew point remained at 19 today instead of dutifully following the temperature.
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21:49:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Phase]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43481&oldid=43475 * Phase * (+12)
21:49:50 <lambdabot> LOWI 142120Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 NCD 19/15 Q1020
21:51:00 <int-e> oh, "no cloud detected"
21:55:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43482 * Phase * (+310) basic summary of the language
21:57:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43483&oldid=43482 * Phase * (+1311) More features of the language
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22:00:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43484&oldid=43483 * Phase * (+935) more features
22:01:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43485&oldid=43484 * Phase * (+5) fix lists
22:19:53 <boily> fizzie: fizziello! would you please reinstantiate fungot twh?
22:20:34 <shachaf> "would you please reinstantiate fungot that would help?"?
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22:21:48 <boily> shellochaf. there's a missing comma hth
22:22:04 <shachaf> Are you asking if it would help?
22:22:23 <boily> the punctuation mark at the end is also wrong.
22:22:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43486&oldid=43485 * Phase * (+1143) Explain file inputting and outputting & character pushing
22:25:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43487&oldid=43477 * Phase * (+9)
22:35:45 <b_jonas> this may be just what I wanted
22:35:49 <b_jonas> or not, depending on the details
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22:45:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43488&oldid=43486 * Phase * (+0) fix typo
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22:55:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43489&oldid=43488 * Phase * (-9) show character pushing
22:57:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43490&oldid=43489 * Phase * (+3) change link
22:57:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43491&oldid=43490 * Phase * (+3) H would be a separate object on the stack
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23:13:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43492&oldid=43491 * Phase * (+1365) lots of more information
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23:44:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43493&oldid=43492 * Esowiki201529A * (+1) /* CodeBlocks */
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23:50:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43494&oldid=43493 * Phase * (+13) /* String Manipulation */ Rename section