←2015-07-23 2015-07-24 2015-07-25→ ↑2015 ↑all
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00:16:14 <oerjan> bonnuily
00:17:08 <oerjan> wait, why isn't that one word
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00:28:37 <Sgeo_> Do the mutations that cause cancer occur on a small enough scale that quantum randomness comes into play, or is it still large enough that it's more like physically rolling a dice, hard to tell what will happen but still deterministic?
00:28:42 <oren> good eving oerjan!
00:29:11 <oren> Sgeo: I'm pretty sure it must be the latter
00:30:32 <oren> because DNA and the proteins that manipulate it are very big molecules, at high temperature
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00:32:59 <oren> and they're immersed in water too, i don't see much chance of an isolated quantum thingy forming
00:33:48 <Sgeo_> How about if it's caused by radiation? Would the radiation itself that caused the mutation likely have been random and might have missed?
00:33:49 <boily> bonsørjair!
00:34:33 <shachaf> `wisdom
00:34:35 <HackEgo> ​̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞/̼͚͇̮͕̘̳̞̤̜̯̪̘̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓
00:34:40 <shachaf> hi boily
00:34:46 <shachaf> how'z jamz?
00:35:17 <boily> hellochaf!
00:35:25 <boily> back from a free punk show downtown!
00:37:52 <oerjan> Sgeo_: radioactive radiation is definitely quantum random
00:38:21 <shachaf> boily: are you a free punk
00:38:44 <Sgeo_> But would be impossible to know if a given cancer was caused by radioactive radiation or not
00:39:07 <oerjan> well duh
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00:40:10 <boily> Sgeo_: that would imply carcinogenic cancerous radioactive radiation.
00:40:27 <boily> shachaf: only when it comes to hot-dogs.
00:41:00 <boily> (there were free hot-dogs. I had mine all dressed.)
00:41:24 <Sgeo_> So if many-worlds is correct, there would be at least some "nearby" "universes"/"branches" where some people who got cancer did not, and some people who did not get cancer did
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00:42:44 * boily drinks a can of nước yến ngân nhĩ
00:43:05 <oren> yah. but if fatalism is correct, quantum random things only seem random.
00:43:34 <shachaf> I hope fatalism isn't correct.
00:43:44 <shachaf> It doesn't sound like a good outlook.
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00:44:13 <Sgeo_> I think sometimes I use it as a coping mechanism but that might be unhealthy
00:44:39 <shachaf> It sounds fatal, in fact. That's the whole joke of what I'm saying.
00:44:39 <Sgeo_> Well, almost-fatalism, I exclude quantum random events that affect the macro world from it
00:44:52 <shachaf> Not much content to it. Not that there was much content to the channel before.
00:45:58 <Sgeo_> I think there are some true but harmful beliefs. Imagine if someone died in an accident, and you can't stop thinking about how if you just did one little thing different they might still be alive. It's probably true, but that has to be mind destroying
00:48:31 <oren> boily: viet soda?
00:48:39 <oren> or viet beer?
00:48:59 <Sgeo_> Anyway, regardless of scientific reality, I think I have a WritingPrompt idea based on this, at least, although I've never done WritingPrompts before
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00:49:13 <Sgeo_> Although maybe not
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00:50:17 <boily> oren: viet soda.
00:52:39 <boily> there also was a viet sandwich along with it, but it mysteriously disappeared.
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01:00:08 <boily> `wisdom
01:00:09 <HackEgo> banach-tarski/"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
01:05:01 <shachaf> `wisdom
01:05:02 <HackEgo> cat/Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
01:05:29 <boily> `wisdom
01:05:30 <HackEgo> supermarioperator/supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle.
01:05:44 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/supermarioperator
01:05:45 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott boily
01:05:53 <boily> ah? I wrote that?
01:06:18 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/supermarioperator | grep summary:
01:06:19 <HackEgo> summary: <boily> learn supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle.
01:06:55 <boily> so it is.
01:07:36 <boily> `wisdom
01:07:37 <HackEgo> marmite/Marmite is a group mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth.
01:14:58 <oerjan> boily: clearly someone ran banach-tarski in reverse on your sandwich and another one
01:16:18 <Phantom_Hoover> `learn supermarionation is another name for the mushroom kingdom
01:16:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'supermarionation': supermarionation is another name for the mushroom kingdom
01:18:19 <boily> I miss the Thunderbirds...
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01:20:31 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/supermarionation
01:20:32 <HackEgo> No output.
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03:07:31 <oren> welp.
03:10:30 <oren> one fifth of ottawa is cheating on their wives
03:10:59 <Sgeo_> Grammar is weird. The statement "X died" makes it sound like X did something to die, when it's most often caused by an external action
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03:39:39 <Wallacoloo> This is brilliant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_prime
03:40:20 <Wallacoloo> I mean, the title alone caught me off guard, but the idea of encoding your data as a mathematically significant prime number in order to defeat censorship is pretty clever.
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03:49:32 <ais523> I like it too
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03:52:27 <ais523> huh, turns out I've been there before in my (former) role as a Wikipedia admin
03:52:56 <ais523> someone was claiming that the page's protection status was mislabeled (which normally needs an admin to update either the protection status or the labelling so that the two match), but they were mistaken
03:53:06 <pikhq> Gregor: You'll be amused to note that one of my coworkers is a graduate of Waterloo's CS program.
03:53:19 <pikhq> And by "coworker" I mean "team mate"
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04:18:32 <ais523> pikhq: do you have opponents where you work, too?
04:18:40 <pikhq> ais523: Not to my knowledge.
04:21:58 <zzo38> I fixed my userChrome.js first I made it to fix the location bar and now I also added the codes to fix the dialog box to ask you if you want to open or save it too
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05:44:48 <Walpurgisnacht> > 17 * 10
05:44:49 <lambdabot> 170
05:45:10 <Walpurgisnacht> Darn I didn't type it out all the way
05:46:24 <Walpurgisnacht> Gosh darn 4 loops
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07:12:17 <mroman> fnurd.
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08:38:53 <izabera> stupid question
08:39:05 <izabera> what's the 5th fibonacci number?
08:39:11 <izabera> is it 5 or 8?
08:39:15 <izabera> where do i start to count?
08:39:22 <b_jonas> izabera: 5
08:39:25 <izabera> thanks
08:39:55 <b_jonas> izabera: you start to count so that fibonacci(gcd(n, k)) = gcd(fibonacci(n), fibonacci(k)) is true, and fibonacci(0) = 0 and fibonacci(1) = 1.
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08:40:55 <myname> oh
08:41:01 <b_jonas> izabera: that's the best reason
08:41:03 <myname> nice property
08:42:29 <ais523> oh, in that case the 5th fibonacci number is 3
08:42:35 <izabera> http://www.bigprimes.net/archive/fibonacci/1000/ this page counts from 0
08:42:40 <ais523> because 0 → first, 1 → second, 2 → third, and so on
08:43:19 <mroman> 0,1,1,2,3
08:43:22 <mroman> makes sense
08:45:53 * Taneb good morning
08:46:04 <mroman> morning Taneb
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09:31:33 <mroman> How many fibonacci numbers are primes?
09:32:12 <Taneb> At least 2
09:32:23 <Taneb> Conjecture: infinitely many
09:32:49 <Taneb> 2,3,5,8,13,89
09:33:04 <Taneb> 233
09:33:57 <Taneb> 1597
09:34:05 <Taneb> A small infinitely many
09:34:48 <Taneb> mroman, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_prime
09:35:43 <mroman> It's unproven as of now
09:38:09 <mroman> good
09:38:29 <mroman> so I can claim that I have a prove that will be relased upon my death
09:38:44 <mroman> but then... it is suddenly lost.
09:38:50 <mroman> but I still get mentioned on wikipedia for it :D
09:38:59 <mroman> that's how you get onto wikipedia
09:39:12 <mroman> *proof
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09:57:10 <myname> 8?
09:57:55 <myname> last time i checked, 8 was dividable by 2
10:07:12 <Taneb> myname, whaaaat?
10:07:21 <Taneb> I am not sure that you are right
10:07:26 <Taneb> Can you prove it?
10:07:41 <myname> depends on the axioms you give me
10:07:44 <Taneb> OK
10:07:50 <Taneb> I'll believe you
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10:45:59 <mroman> Depends.
10:46:02 <mroman> 2 mod 2 is 0
10:46:06 <mroman> and you can't divide by 0
10:51:20 <boily> mrelloman. don't tell me what I can't do.
10:55:04 <Taneb> > 10 / 0
10:55:06 <lambdabot> Infinity
10:55:13 <Taneb> Clearly one CAN divide by zero!
11:06:32 <fizzie> > 10 `div` 0
11:06:34 <lambdabot> *Exception: divide by zero
11:06:35 <fizzie> Only sometimes!
11:06:54 <Taneb> > 0 * (10/0)
11:06:56 <lambdabot> NaN
11:08:38 * boily feels mathematically uneasy
11:14:49 <Taneb> Hurrah for IEEE 754
11:21:08 <fizzie> > [1/0 - 2/0, (1-2)/0] -- hurrah
11:21:09 <lambdabot> [NaN,-Infinity]
11:22:11 <Taneb> > decodeFloat (0/0)
11:22:12 <lambdabot> (-6755399441055744,972)
11:22:28 <Taneb> > decodeFloat (0*(10/0))
11:22:29 <lambdabot> (-6755399441055744,972)
11:22:34 <Taneb> Huh, the same NaN
11:23:58 <boily> this is horrible. I'm leaving for saner realities.
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11:24:28 <fizzie> > [0/0, uncurry encodeFloat . decodeFloat $ (0/0)] -- wow
11:24:29 <lambdabot> [NaN,-Infinity]
11:24:59 <mroman> much wow. very float. So NaN.
11:26:47 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's GHC #3134
11:27:04 <int-e> > encodeFloat $ decodeFloat (1/0 :: Float)
11:27:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Integer’
11:27:05 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘(Integer, Int)’
11:27:05 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘($)’, namely
11:27:17 <int-e> > uncurry encodeFloat $ decodeFloat (1/0 :: Float)
11:27:19 <lambdabot> 3.402823669209385e38
11:27:20 <mroman> @type encodeFloat
11:27:21 <lambdabot> RealFloat a => Integer -> Int -> a
11:27:30 <mroman> hm
11:27:34 <mroman> are there unreal floats
11:27:38 <mroman> @type decodeFloat
11:27:39 <lambdabot> RealFloat a => a -> (Integer, Int)
11:27:55 <mroman> @type encodeFloat 5
11:27:56 <lambdabot> RealFloat a => Int -> a
11:27:59 <mroman> @type encodeFloat 5 3
11:28:00 <lambdabot> RealFloat a => a
11:28:04 <mroman> > encodeFloat 5 3
11:28:05 <lambdabot> 40.0
11:28:06 <Deewiant> mroman: Not in the Prelude at least
11:28:18 <mroman> wth does encodeFloat even do
11:28:37 <int-e> decodeFloat just blindly takes exponent and mantisssa... encodeFloat is supposd to reverse decodeFloat
11:28:39 <Deewiant> The function decodeFloat applied to a real floating-point number returns the significand expressed as an Integer and an appropriately scaled exponent (an Int). If decodeFloat x yields (m,n), then x is equal in value to mbn, where b is the floating-point radix, and furthermore, either m and n are both zero or else bd-1<=m<bd, where d is the value of floatDigits x. encodeFloat performs the inverse of this
11:28:42 <Deewiant> transformation.
11:28:47 <mroman> I see.
11:28:52 <mroman> > decodeFloat 40.0
11:28:54 <lambdabot> (5629499534213120,-47)
11:29:01 <mroman> > decodeFloat 128
11:29:03 <lambdabot> (4503599627370496,-45)
11:29:06 <mroman> hm
11:29:07 <mroman> weird
11:29:09 <mroman> > encodeFloat 2 8
11:29:11 <lambdabot> 512.0
11:29:18 <mroman> > decodeFloat 512
11:29:19 <lambdabot> (4503599627370496,-43)
11:29:21 <int-e> (the exponent is adjusted for the number of bits in the mantisssa)
11:29:37 <int-e> > decodeFloat (2^53)
11:29:39 <lambdabot> (4503599627370496,1)
11:29:52 <int-e> > decodeFloat (2^52)
11:29:54 <lambdabot> (4503599627370496,0)
11:30:18 * int-e wonders about denormals, hmm
11:30:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: Updated 7 days ago, after about 5 years of silence (modulo one extra Cc).
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11:34:36 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yep, that was amusing.
11:35:43 <Taneb> ?
11:37:27 * int-e wonders whether esolangs.org's ownership has been clarified or whether it'll expire again may next year.
11:39:25 <fizzie> int-e: I kind of half-decided I could take it, and then ask for completely optional donations to cover the costs, but nothing concrete actually happened.
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11:42:36 * int-e could take it too, but isn't too keen on another community contribution paid out of his own pocket (in addition to lambdabot).
11:43:46 <Taneb> How much would it cost?
11:44:28 <fizzie> It kind of makes sense for the person taking care of the DNS services to own the domain, just in case they need to update DNS server addresses.
11:46:19 <|f`-`|f> doing your own dns?
11:47:16 <fizzie> Yes.
11:47:47 <fizzie> Gandi's .org price is about 13 EUR/year, and I pay $16/year for another .org I have, and I think you can get cheaper but I don't really know which registrars are the good ones.
11:48:33 <|f`-`|f> oh
11:48:43 <|f`-`|f> so actually buying them
11:48:46 <int-e> $10-$15 a year? http://www.domparison.com/domain-name-price-comparison/index.php?ext=org&want=renew
11:48:51 <|f`-`|f> which seems standard fair?
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12:41:28 <oerjan> <ais523> because 0 → first, 1 → second, 2 → third, and so on <-- i once imagined a fictional conlang in which ordinals work that way (basically, you construct them with a preposition meaning "after"), i wonder if any natural languages do
12:42:05 <|f`-`|f> what?
12:42:32 <oerjan> |f`-`|f: the term for "second" would be "after 1"
12:42:41 <Jafet> Ah yes, the first ordinal, second ordinal, third ordinal, ordinal 3, and so on.
12:43:01 <|f`-`|f> so what if I did 4 first
12:43:08 <|f`-`|f> would I get fifth, or first
12:43:21 <oerjan> |f`-`|f: go ask /r/fifthworldproblems
12:43:47 <oerjan> my idea makes logical sense, unlike yours
12:44:09 <oerjan> if something is fourth in a row, then there are 3 items before it
12:44:13 <Jafet> Your ordinals are in unary?
12:44:49 <oerjan> Jafet: no. the words 1, 2, 3 etc. aren't ordinals, they are cardinals, there is no recursion hth
12:45:40 <oerjan> it's just that ordinal terms are based on an off-by-one cardinal compared to in english
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12:46:52 <oerjan> but maybe this is too unintuitive for humans, what do i know
12:47:22 <b_jonas> I usually say "of index 0, of index 1, of index 2, of index 3", but I hope we can eventually just get people to say "first, second, twoth, third"
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12:48:24 <b_jonas> or maybe "first, second, twoth, threeth"
12:49:16 <Jafet> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pamai claims that "nomai" is lojban for ordinal 0, but the link contradicts this
12:49:41 <Jafet> It probably has the same status as "zeroth"
12:49:49 <b_jonas> Jafet: yes, "nomai" means 0th
12:49:53 <b_jonas> no wait
12:49:57 <b_jonas> you mean "nomoi"
12:50:38 <fizzie> fi:"no moi" -> en:"oh, hello"
12:50:42 <b_jonas> but I for one would recommend keeping "moi" as context-sensitive and using longer words when you want to specify zero-based or one-based
12:52:37 <Deewiant> fizzie: More like en:ohai
12:52:39 <b_jonas> specifically something like "se lidnemei" for zero-based ordinal index
12:52:56 <Jafet> Actually, I believe that chinese use the same words for cardinals and ordinals, so you should be able to use 0-based counting without as much confusion
12:54:20 <Jafet> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one 一; https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/first 第一
12:55:40 * oerjan likes how romance languages use the definite article to turn comparative into superlative
12:58:59 <Taneb> ille maior
12:59:32 <oerjan> well latin didn't, afair
12:59:43 <oerjan> it didn't even _have_ articles
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13:00:29 <oerjan> and the latin superlative turned into a kind of emphasizing in italian
13:02:13 <oerjan> the original comparative still remains in a few words, maggiore being one of them
13:03:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i just love how puella is etymologically the diminutive form of puer
13:05:54 <Taneb> I think in early literature both puellus and puera were in use
13:06:18 <oren> as I understand it domain name prices vary much more by the dotword at the end than by registrar
13:07:20 <oren> Chines and japanese cont things using a counter and the word
13:08:29 <oren> for japanese, you could say 0番,1番,2番
13:10:14 <oren> note that here zero is pronounced as chinese "rei" rather than "zero"
13:10:55 <oren> so that would be 0th, 1st, 2nd
13:11:47 <oerjan> yes, but which one means the first in a row?
13:14:21 <oren> For more confusion, oftentimes the first question on a test sheet is labeled '例' which is also pronounced 'rei' but means 'example'.
13:17:16 <oren> because japanese people decided, oh, let's just get rid of these tones, noone will care
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13:50:57 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> are there unreal floats <-- there are complex numbers
13:50:57 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
13:51:08 <oerjan> :t pi
13:51:09 <lambdabot> Floating a => a
13:51:20 <oerjan> > pi :: Complex Double
13:51:21 <lambdabot> 3.141592653589793 :+ 0.0
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14:26:30 <tswett> `unidecode gardеnеr
14:26:30 <HackEgo> ​[U+0067 LATIN SMALL LETTER G] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+0435 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER IE] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0435 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER IE] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R]
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14:32:12 <b_jonas> argh stupid perl insists that I balance my }})} parenthesis because otherwise it won't figure out what ends where
14:33:50 <Taneb> That is reasonable?
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15:02:25 <oerjan> i think randall munroe messed up his graphics today
15:06:32 <fizzie> I don't know, maybe it's a stylistic choice.
15:06:37 <fizzie> It reminds me of a fax.
15:07:05 <oerjan> ...maybe it is one.
15:07:36 <coppro> it was better last night
15:07:58 <fizzie> Yeah, I didn't notice anything weird when I looked at the RSS feed.
15:08:16 <oerjan> huh
15:08:48 <fizzie> (Which I think took me to m.xkcd.com.)
15:13:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43572&oldid=41679 * LegionMammal978 * (-30) fixed spec
15:14:05 <b_jonas> argh I'm gonna be sick
15:14:10 <Taneb> b_jonas, :(
15:15:25 <oerjan> ah the forum mentions a typo that has been removed
15:15:37 <oerjan> (it originally said kevin kostner)
15:16:00 <oerjan> as well as some others that haven't.
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17:00:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DcScript]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43573&oldid=33524 * LegionMammal978 * (+9) this page could use some specs
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21:24:55 <oerjan> that was a short log section...
21:25:53 <shachaf> `wisdom
21:25:54 <shachaf> `wisdom
21:25:54 <shachaf> `wisdom
21:25:54 <HackEgo> ​αλτγρ+γ/αλτγρ+γ is the national dead pastry of Greece. Goes great with a glass of ouzo!
21:25:55 <HackEgo> _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞/_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖́̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̈̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖́̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̈̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞
21:25:55 <HackEgo> rholypoly/A rholypoly is an edible Greek species of Armadillidiidae. Goes well with garlic!
21:25:55 <shachaf> hth
21:26:25 <oerjan> `unidecode +
21:26:26 <HackEgo> ​[U+002B PLUS SIGN]
21:26:40 <oerjan> i don't think greek words generally contain that.
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21:29:51 <oerjan> what, armadillidiidae actually exist
21:31:13 <shachaf> wisdom is pretty greek today
21:31:14 <shachaf> `` rgrep -il gree wisdom
21:31:16 <HackEgo> wisdom/αλτγρ+γ \ wisdom/cow \ wisdom/rholypoly \ wisdom/catamorphism
21:31:40 <shachaf> `? cow
21:31:41 <HackEgo> A cow is an animal best served at minus zero degrees.
21:32:36 <oerjan> hm the armadillidiidae and armadillidae articles contradict each other
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21:35:04 <oerjan> what about the atrapadidae, i wonder
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21:50:37 <oerjan> argh
21:51:52 <oerjan> i thought a 45 min old unanswered stackoverflow question was reasonably safe from having someone else finish their answer before me, but noo...
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22:14:21 <oerjan> shachaf: do you know an example of a Category that's also Functor (modulo no. of parameters), but not an `Arrow`?
22:15:02 <oerjan> if so, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/31618370/is-f-fmap-f-id-always-equivalent-to-arr
22:15:21 * oerjan has been doing too much markdown
22:17:19 <shachaf> How about a Category that's a Profunctor?
22:17:27 <oerjan> that would work
22:17:36 <shachaf> I mean, not that I have one.
22:17:44 <shachaf> :t \f -> rmap f C.id
22:17:45 <lambdabot> (Category p, Profunctor p) => (b -> c) -> p b c
22:17:46 <oerjan> i was looking up profunctors but then remembered they didn't have to be categories
22:17:51 <shachaf> :t \f -> lmap f C.id
22:17:53 <lambdabot> (Category p, Profunctor p) => (a -> c) -> p a c
22:18:18 <shachaf> Usually profunctors aren't categories.
22:18:30 <shachaf> It's only in the bizarre framework of Haskell that it even makes much sense for one to be the other.
22:18:44 <oerjan> fancy
22:19:11 <shachaf> Anyway back in the day when I thought about those things I'd maybe be able to give a useful answer.
22:19:23 <shachaf> I definitely remember this lmap/rmap f id thing coming up somewhere.
22:19:26 <oerjan> hm...
22:20:07 <shachaf> Anyway, if your type is both a Category and an Arrow, then \f -> rmap f id = arr, I think.
22:20:10 <oerjan> hm no pumpkins in channel, and edwardk is long idle
22:20:32 <oerjan> shachaf: the case for when you know its an Arrow is well established.
22:20:46 <shachaf> Oh, your link talks about that.
22:21:27 <shachaf> There's probably something which is both Category and Functor but not Arrow.
22:21:39 <oerjan> yep, probably.
22:21:46 <shachaf> Why would every Category+Functor thing have products?
22:21:51 <shachaf> @src Arrow
22:21:51 <lambdabot> class Arrow a where
22:21:51 <lambdabot> arr, pure :: (b -> c) -> a b c
22:21:51 <lambdabot> (>>>) :: a b c -> a c d -> a b d
22:21:51 <lambdabot> first :: a b c -> a (b,d) (c,d)
22:21:51 <lambdabot> second :: a b c -> a (d,b) (d,c)
22:21:53 <lambdabot> (***) :: a b c -> a b' c' -> a (b,b') (c,c')
22:21:55 <lambdabot> (&&&) :: a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c,c')
22:22:03 <shachaf> That's a few lines more than I hoped for.
22:22:12 <shachaf> Anyway, no reason to expect it.
22:22:18 <oerjan> indeed, so i don't
22:22:37 <shachaf> are you hinting that i'm not being very helpful
22:22:41 <oerjan> still, i find the SO question is missing the nail in the coffin
22:23:01 <oerjan> should i use a more solid object for hinting?
22:23:22 <shachaf> i didn't realize you were equipped with a mapole
22:23:36 <oerjan> no, but i have the saucepan
22:23:59 <oerjan> also i'm sure there must be an example in one of edwardk's package, if i only knew them
22:24:03 <shachaf> my impression was that you don't cook very much
22:24:05 <oerjan> *packages
22:24:11 <oerjan> that is true.
22:24:20 <shachaf> how did you end up with the saucepan?
22:24:47 <oerjan> rule of plot relevance
22:24:51 <shachaf> has it ever been used for sauce?
22:25:07 <oerjan> hardly, ASCII characters don't hold sauce well
22:25:31 * oerjan should check if he has a physical one
22:25:35 <shachaf> you're an ASCII character
22:25:42 <mauris> `? saucepan
22:25:43 <HackEgo> saucepan? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:25:46 <mauris> help
22:26:13 <oerjan> not in this house, i think
22:26:28 <shachaf> oerjan: I found out that edwardk doesn't even have data T f a = L a | B (T f (f a)) anywhere.
22:26:41 <oerjan> shocking
22:26:49 <shachaf> Though he does have the dual.
22:27:24 <shachaf> ski: Maybe you know the answer to oerjan's question?
22:29:19 <oerjan> ski: aka, is there a Category that is Functor but not Arrow
22:32:43 <oerjan> hm ReifiedFold is an Arrow
22:33:00 * oerjan loaded Control.Lens to see what new Category instances popped up
22:33:41 <oerjan> as is Indexed i
22:34:04 * oerjan tried :info!
22:34:09 <shachaf> oerjan: remember the good old days of lens when a type like Indexed was how everything worked?
22:34:10 <oerjan> *s
22:34:22 <oerjan> i'm not sure
22:34:31 <shachaf> type Iso a b c d = forall k f. (Isomorphic k, Functor f) => k (c -> f d) (a -> f b)
22:35:10 <shachaf> type IndexedTraversal i a b c d = forall f k. (Indexed i k, Applicative f) => k (c -> f d) (a -> f b)
22:35:13 <shachaf> that thing
22:35:35 <oerjan> ...okay, whatever
22:36:22 <oerjan> Cokleisli too...
22:38:07 <oerjan> Op is not, but it's not Functor either
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22:40:08 <oerjan> something tells me Coercion isn't a Functor either
22:40:41 <oerjan> or :~:
22:40:47 <shachaf> can you just find a category which isn't contravariant in the first argument
22:41:09 <oerjan> Op works for that
22:41:31 <shachaf> and which is covariant in the secone argument, i mean
22:41:36 <shachaf> that's definitely not going to be an Arrow
22:41:51 <shachaf> wait, that makes no sense
22:42:00 <shachaf> such a thing can't exist
22:42:02 <oerjan> i don't think that's possible, actually
22:42:02 <shachaf> never mind tdnh
22:42:16 <shachaf> it's gotta be the products
22:42:21 <oerjan> because from Functor and Category you get, essentially, arr (but not the rest of Arrow)
22:42:28 <shachaf> yep
22:42:43 <oerjan> and that gives you contravariance too
22:43:29 <shachaf> yep
22:45:25 <oerjan> hm Pipes doesn't seem to define any Categories, despite being thorougly based on categories
22:45:54 * oerjan restarts WinGHCi to see how much of this depends on what packages are loaded
22:46:16 <oerjan> ok it does matter for that
22:49:37 <Sgeo_> http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/soft/ld-expl
22:49:51 <Sgeo_> "World's best exploit: ld-expl. It still works - amaze your friends!"
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22:51:35 <fizzie> Must nitpick about the complete unnecessity of having a named file for the source.
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23:13:59 * ski can never recall what the difference between "profunctor" and "difunctor" is (if there is any) :/
23:18:11 <shachaf> ski: I think they usually mean the same thing.
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23:24:06 <oerjan> so difunctor isn't the same as bifunctor?
23:24:53 * oerjan has been wondering if you could make a polykinded Functor that supported both co- and contravariance
23:25:20 <oerjan> so that all of functor, bifunctor and profunctor would just be special cases
23:25:31 <ski> if you have a small category `C', then `Hom_C : C^op * C >---> Set', so given an object `A' in `C^op', `(B |-> Hom_C (A,B)) : C >---> Set' is a (covariant) functor
23:25:44 <shachaf> oerjan: No, difunctor is as in dinatural transformation, or something along those lines.
23:25:47 <shachaf> di like diagonal?
23:25:50 <shachaf> I don't remember.
23:25:53 <ski> oerjan : i don't know the definition of "profunctor", so i can't tell
23:26:28 <ski> (a "difunctor" from `A' and `B' to `C' is a bifunctor from `A^op' and `B' to `C')
23:26:28 <oerjan> ski: um, my question is about the haskell Category, Functor and Arrow classes, specifically
23:26:30 <shachaf> The Haskell definition we're using is class Profunctor p where dimap :: (x -> a) -> (b -> y) -> p a b -> p x y
23:26:42 <shachaf> Oh, right, we're not even using a Haskell definition.
23:27:06 <oerjan> basically, to find an example of something that cannot be given an Arrow instance despite having the rest
23:27:30 <shachaf> A Category with fmap which doesn't have products.
23:27:42 <ski> oerjan : do you mean "can't be given a (valid) `arr'" definition ? or also the product structure ?
23:27:56 <oerjan> ski: no, arr can be defined from the pieces given
23:28:02 <oerjan> (fmap f id)
23:28:04 <shachaf> You can make a (valid) `arr' definition from Category and fmap
23:28:28 <ski> oerjan : i was pondering whether that would always satisfy laws (assuming a general CT setting, not just in Haskell)
23:28:30 <shachaf> So products are the whole deal.
23:28:39 <shachaf> Which is surprising given how unproductive this discussion has been.
23:29:12 <shachaf> ski: sometime i should find out about profunctors and chu spaces and things
23:29:22 <shachaf> `? chu space
23:29:23 <HackEgo> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
23:29:30 <oerjan> i suppose you _could_ even have the product structure, if you manage to find one of the examples of something that's Category + Applicative but not Arrow.
23:29:44 <oerjan> (but fails the connecting laws)
23:30:11 <oerjan> but i suspect something without product would be easier
23:33:31 * oerjan just favorites the question in case someone else answers
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23:41:11 <shachaf> oerjan: you can't give up now!!
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23:42:49 * oerjan is really good at giving up, you know
23:43:08 <shachaf> what kind of evil overlord does that make you
23:43:24 <oerjan> a failed one hth
23:45:32 <oerjan> hm what about a free construction
23:47:35 <oerjan> data Fnord t a b where Fn :: (a -> b) -> Fnord t a b; Base :: (t a b) -> Fnord t a b
23:47:51 <oerjan> oh wait, needs composition
23:48:05 <oerjan> ...but only some kinds
23:49:01 <oerjan> so is there a free category somewhere... well there are thrists
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23:50:54 <hppavilion[1]> Hi
23:51:11 <oerjan> ho
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23:52:01 <hppavilion[1]> Someone needs to implement a tangle-bracket language
23:52:02 <oerjan> hm does ocharles___ know his Categories
23:52:07 <hppavilion[1]> Or at least design one
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23:55:55 <oerjan> data Fnord t a b where Fn :: (a -> b) -> Fnord t a b; Base :: t a b -> Fnord t a b; Cons :: (c -> d) -> t (b -> c) -> Fnord t a b -> Fnord t a d
23:56:26 <oerjan> oh wait drop the Base
23:57:07 <oerjan> it's equivalent to Cons id something (Fn id)
23:57:46 <shachaf> oerjan: that's a syntax error, a type name needs to start with a capital letter hth
23:57:52 <shachaf> you can't just write the type variables
23:58:10 <oerjan> hm?
23:58:20 <oerjan> ...
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23:58:34 * oerjan hits shachaf with the saucepan ===\__/
23:58:53 <shachaf> fungot started it
23:58:53 <fungot> shachaf: but if you're dealing with unfamiliar territory, start small: test at the end
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