00:03:45 -!- scoofy has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:14:03 -!- boily has joined. 00:16:14 bonnuily 00:17:08 wait, why isn't that one word 00:23:41 -!- MDude has joined. 00:28:37 Do the mutations that cause cancer occur on a small enough scale that quantum randomness comes into play, or is it still large enough that it's more like physically rolling a dice, hard to tell what will happen but still deterministic? 00:28:42 good eving oerjan! 00:29:11 Sgeo: I'm pretty sure it must be the latter 00:30:32 because DNA and the proteins that manipulate it are very big molecules, at high temperature 00:32:15 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 00:32:59 and they're immersed in water too, i don't see much chance of an isolated quantum thingy forming 00:33:48 How about if it's caused by radiation? Would the radiation itself that caused the mutation likely have been random and might have missed? 00:33:49 bonsørjair! 00:34:33 `wisdom 00:34:35 ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚�͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞/̼͚͇̮͕̘̳̞̤̜̯̪̘̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓� 00:34:40 hi boily 00:34:46 how'z jamz? 00:35:17 hellochaf! 00:35:25 back from a free punk show downtown! 00:37:52 Sgeo_: radioactive radiation is definitely quantum random 00:38:21 boily: are you a free punk 00:38:44 But would be impossible to know if a given cancer was caused by radioactive radiation or not 00:39:07 well duh 00:40:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:40:10 Sgeo_: that would imply carcinogenic cancerous radioactive radiation. 00:40:27 shachaf: only when it comes to hot-dogs. 00:41:00 (there were free hot-dogs. I had mine all dressed.) 00:41:24 So if many-worlds is correct, there would be at least some "nearby" "universes"/"branches" where some people who got cancer did not, and some people who did not get cancer did 00:42:04 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:42:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 00:42:42 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:42:44 * boily drinks a can of nước yến ngân nhĩ 00:43:05 yah. but if fatalism is correct, quantum random things only seem random. 00:43:34 I hope fatalism isn't correct. 00:43:44 It doesn't sound like a good outlook. 00:43:49 -!- _256Q has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:44:13 I think sometimes I use it as a coping mechanism but that might be unhealthy 00:44:39 It sounds fatal, in fact. That's the whole joke of what I'm saying. 00:44:39 Well, almost-fatalism, I exclude quantum random events that affect the macro world from it 00:44:52 Not much content to it. Not that there was much content to the channel before. 00:45:58 I think there are some true but harmful beliefs. Imagine if someone died in an accident, and you can't stop thinking about how if you just did one little thing different they might still be alive. It's probably true, but that has to be mind destroying 00:48:31 boily: viet soda? 00:48:39 or viet beer? 00:48:59 Anyway, regardless of scientific reality, I think I have a WritingPrompt idea based on this, at least, although I've never done WritingPrompts before 00:49:07 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:49:13 Although maybe not 00:49:15 -!- quintopia has joined. 00:50:04 -!- tromp__ has joined. 00:50:17 oren: viet soda. 00:52:39 there also was a viet sandwich along with it, but it mysteriously disappeared. 00:55:49 -!- mihow has joined. 01:00:08 `wisdom 01:00:09 banach-tarski/"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski". 01:05:01 `wisdom 01:05:02 cat/Cats are cool, but should be illegal. 01:05:29 `wisdom 01:05:30 supermarioperator/supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle. 01:05:44 `` culprits wisdom/supermarioperator 01:05:45 oerjan elliott boily 01:05:53 ah? I wrote that? 01:06:18 `` hg log wisdom/supermarioperator | grep summary: 01:06:19 summary: learn supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle. 01:06:55 so it is. 01:07:36 `wisdom 01:07:37 marmite/Marmite is a group mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth. 01:14:58 boily: clearly someone ran banach-tarski in reverse on your sandwich and another one 01:16:18 `learn supermarionation is another name for the mushroom kingdom 01:16:21 Learned 'supermarionation': supermarionation is another name for the mushroom kingdom 01:18:19 I miss the Thunderbirds... 01:19:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:20:31 `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/supermarionation 01:20:32 No output. 01:21:34 -!- boily has quit (Quit: VOXEL CHICKEN). 01:26:43 -!- Herbalist has joined. 01:30:10 -!- Herbalist has left. 01:56:46 -!- tromp__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:04:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Z?). 02:10:59 -!- variable has joined. 02:15:04 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 02:20:14 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 02:35:55 -!- Wallacoloo has joined. 02:47:16 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:58:32 -!- mihow has joined. 03:07:31 welp. 03:10:30 one fifth of ottawa is cheating on their wives 03:10:59 Grammar is weird. The statement "X died" makes it sound like X did something to die, when it's most often caused by an external action 03:19:40 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 03:20:52 -!- mihow has joined. 03:25:34 -!- tromp__ has joined. 03:39:39 This is brilliant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_prime 03:40:20 I mean, the title alone caught me off guard, but the idea of encoding your data as a mathematically significant prime number in order to defeat censorship is pretty clever. 03:48:43 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 03:49:32 I like it too 03:50:24 -!- mihow has joined. 03:52:27 huh, turns out I've been there before in my (former) role as a Wikipedia admin 03:52:56 someone was claiming that the page's protection status was mislabeled (which normally needs an admin to update either the protection status or the labelling so that the two match), but they were mistaken 03:53:06 Gregor: You'll be amused to note that one of my coworkers is a graduate of Waterloo's CS program. 03:53:19 And by "coworker" I mean "team mate" 03:54:53 -!- tromp__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:57:39 -!- Wright_ has joined. 03:57:40 -!- Wright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:03:36 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 04:04:21 -!- mihow has joined. 04:10:58 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 04:18:32 pikhq: do you have opponents where you work, too? 04:18:40 ais523: Not to my knowledge. 04:21:58 I fixed my userChrome.js first I made it to fix the location bar and now I also added the codes to fix the dialog box to ask you if you want to open or save it too 04:38:12 -!- comodvs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:42:29 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 04:55:24 -!- tromp__ has joined. 05:00:07 -!- tromp__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:19:33 -!- Lymia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:19:42 -!- Wright_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:20:00 -!- Lymia has joined. 05:44:38 -!- Walpurgisnacht has joined. 05:44:48 > 17 * 10 05:44:49 170 05:45:10 Darn I didn't type it out all the way 05:46:24 Gosh darn 4 loops 05:52:31 -!- Wallacoloo has left. 05:59:11 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 06:02:38 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:29:43 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:55:30 -!- tromp__ has joined. 07:00:07 -!- tromp__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:00:23 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:00:29 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 07:02:53 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:12:17 fnurd. 07:15:47 -!- scoofy has joined. 07:16:15 -!- jasony has joined. 07:26:15 -!- olsner has joined. 07:31:05 -!- J_A_Work has joined. 07:32:52 -!- J_A_Work_ has joined. 07:32:52 -!- J_A_Work has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:32:52 -!- J_A_Work_ has changed nick to J_A_Work. 07:48:11 -!- Walpurgisnacht has quit (Quit: Fuck me). 08:06:30 -!- J_A_Work has quit (Quit: J_A_Work). 08:16:47 -!- white_bear has joined. 08:19:12 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:24:47 -!- jasony has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:38:53 stupid question 08:39:05 what's the 5th fibonacci number? 08:39:11 is it 5 or 8? 08:39:15 where do i start to count? 08:39:22 izabera: 5 08:39:25 thanks 08:39:55 izabera: you start to count so that fibonacci(gcd(n, k)) = gcd(fibonacci(n), fibonacci(k)) is true, and fibonacci(0) = 0 and fibonacci(1) = 1. 08:40:38 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:40:55 oh 08:41:01 izabera: that's the best reason 08:41:03 nice property 08:42:29 oh, in that case the 5th fibonacci number is 3 08:42:35 http://www.bigprimes.net/archive/fibonacci/1000/ this page counts from 0 08:42:40 because 0 → first, 1 → second, 2 → third, and so on 08:43:19 0,1,1,2,3 08:43:22 makes sense 08:45:53 * Taneb good morning 08:46:04 morning Taneb 08:51:38 -!- lleu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:52:03 -!- lleu has joined. 09:16:30 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:17:24 -!- heroux has joined. 09:31:33 How many fibonacci numbers are primes? 09:32:12 At least 2 09:32:23 Conjecture: infinitely many 09:32:49 2,3,5,8,13,89 09:33:04 233 09:33:57 1597 09:34:05 A small infinitely many 09:34:48 mroman, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_prime 09:35:43 It's unproven as of now 09:38:09 good 09:38:29 so I can claim that I have a prove that will be relased upon my death 09:38:44 but then... it is suddenly lost. 09:38:50 but I still get mentioned on wikipedia for it :D 09:38:59 that's how you get onto wikipedia 09:39:12 *proof 09:45:32 -!- tromp__ has joined. 09:50:38 -!- tromp__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:55:46 -!- lleu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:56:07 -!- lleu has joined. 09:57:10 8? 09:57:55 last time i checked, 8 was dividable by 2 10:07:12 myname, whaaaat? 10:07:21 I am not sure that you are right 10:07:26 Can you prove it? 10:07:41 depends on the axioms you give me 10:07:44 OK 10:07:50 I'll believe you 10:23:03 -!- glowcoil has quit. 10:23:14 -!- glowcoil has joined. 10:26:59 -!- boily has joined. 10:27:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:45:59 Depends. 10:46:02 2 mod 2 is 0 10:46:06 and you can't divide by 0 10:51:20 mrelloman. don't tell me what I can't do. 10:55:04 > 10 / 0 10:55:06 Infinity 10:55:13 Clearly one CAN divide by zero! 11:06:32 > 10 `div` 0 11:06:34 *Exception: divide by zero 11:06:35 Only sometimes! 11:06:54 > 0 * (10/0) 11:06:56 NaN 11:08:38 * boily feels mathematically uneasy 11:14:49 Hurrah for IEEE 754 11:21:08 > [1/0 - 2/0, (1-2)/0] -- hurrah 11:21:09 [NaN,-Infinity] 11:22:11 > decodeFloat (0/0) 11:22:12 (-6755399441055744,972) 11:22:28 > decodeFloat (0*(10/0)) 11:22:29 (-6755399441055744,972) 11:22:34 Huh, the same NaN 11:23:58 this is horrible. I'm leaving for saner realities. 11:24:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: MANAGERIAL CHICKEN). 11:24:28 > [0/0, uncurry encodeFloat . decodeFloat $ (0/0)] -- wow 11:24:29 [NaN,-Infinity] 11:24:59 much wow. very float. So NaN. 11:26:47 fizzie: That's GHC #3134 11:27:04 > encodeFloat $ decodeFloat (1/0 :: Float) 11:27:05 Couldn't match expected type ‘Integer’ 11:27:05 with actual type ‘(Integer, Int)’ 11:27:05 In the second argument of ‘($)’, namely 11:27:17 > uncurry encodeFloat $ decodeFloat (1/0 :: Float) 11:27:19 3.402823669209385e38 11:27:20 @type encodeFloat 11:27:21 RealFloat a => Integer -> Int -> a 11:27:30 hm 11:27:34 are there unreal floats 11:27:38 @type decodeFloat 11:27:39 RealFloat a => a -> (Integer, Int) 11:27:55 @type encodeFloat 5 11:27:56 RealFloat a => Int -> a 11:27:59 @type encodeFloat 5 3 11:28:00 RealFloat a => a 11:28:04 > encodeFloat 5 3 11:28:05 40.0 11:28:06 mroman: Not in the Prelude at least 11:28:18 wth does encodeFloat even do 11:28:37 decodeFloat just blindly takes exponent and mantisssa... encodeFloat is supposd to reverse decodeFloat 11:28:39 The function decodeFloat applied to a real floating-point number returns the significand expressed as an Integer and an appropriately scaled exponent (an Int). If decodeFloat x yields (m,n), then x is equal in value to mbn, where b is the floating-point radix, and furthermore, either m and n are both zero or else bd-1<=m transformation. 11:28:47 I see. 11:28:52 > decodeFloat 40.0 11:28:54 (5629499534213120,-47) 11:29:01 > decodeFloat 128 11:29:03 (4503599627370496,-45) 11:29:06 hm 11:29:07 weird 11:29:09 > encodeFloat 2 8 11:29:11 512.0 11:29:18 > decodeFloat 512 11:29:19 (4503599627370496,-43) 11:29:21 (the exponent is adjusted for the number of bits in the mantisssa) 11:29:37 > decodeFloat (2^53) 11:29:39 (4503599627370496,1) 11:29:52 > decodeFloat (2^52) 11:29:54 (4503599627370496,0) 11:30:18 * int-e wonders about denormals, hmm 11:30:42 Deewiant: Updated 7 days ago, after about 5 years of silence (modulo one extra Cc). 11:32:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:34:36 fizzie: Yep, that was amusing. 11:35:43 ? 11:37:27 * int-e wonders whether esolangs.org's ownership has been clarified or whether it'll expire again may next year. 11:39:25 int-e: I kind of half-decided I could take it, and then ask for completely optional donations to cover the costs, but nothing concrete actually happened. 11:41:12 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 11:42:36 * int-e could take it too, but isn't too keen on another community contribution paid out of his own pocket (in addition to lambdabot). 11:43:46 How much would it cost? 11:44:28 It kind of makes sense for the person taking care of the DNS services to own the domain, just in case they need to update DNS server addresses. 11:46:19 <|f`-`|f> doing your own dns? 11:47:16 Yes. 11:47:47 Gandi's .org price is about 13 EUR/year, and I pay $16/year for another .org I have, and I think you can get cheaper but I don't really know which registrars are the good ones. 11:48:33 <|f`-`|f> oh 11:48:43 <|f`-`|f> so actually buying them 11:48:46 $10-$15 a year? http://www.domparison.com/domain-name-price-comparison/index.php?ext=org&want=renew 11:48:51 <|f`-`|f> which seems standard fair? 11:52:12 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:52:27 -!- x10A94 has joined. 11:54:03 -!- zadock has joined. 11:56:21 -!- APic has joined. 12:22:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:23:30 -!- mbrcknl has quit. 12:24:05 -!- mbrcknl has joined. 12:28:32 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:30:37 -!- heroux has joined. 12:34:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:40:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:41:28 because 0 → first, 1 → second, 2 → third, and so on <-- i once imagined a fictional conlang in which ordinals work that way (basically, you construct them with a preposition meaning "after"), i wonder if any natural languages do 12:42:05 <|f`-`|f> what? 12:42:32 |f`-`|f: the term for "second" would be "after 1" 12:42:41 Ah yes, the first ordinal, second ordinal, third ordinal, ordinal 3, and so on. 12:43:01 <|f`-`|f> so what if I did 4 first 12:43:08 <|f`-`|f> would I get fifth, or first 12:43:21 |f`-`|f: go ask /r/fifthworldproblems 12:43:47 my idea makes logical sense, unlike yours 12:44:09 if something is fourth in a row, then there are 3 items before it 12:44:13 Your ordinals are in unary? 12:44:49 Jafet: no. the words 1, 2, 3 etc. aren't ordinals, they are cardinals, there is no recursion hth 12:45:40 it's just that ordinal terms are based on an off-by-one cardinal compared to in english 12:46:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 12:46:52 but maybe this is too unintuitive for humans, what do i know 12:47:22 I usually say "of index 0, of index 1, of index 2, of index 3", but I hope we can eventually just get people to say "first, second, twoth, third" 12:47:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: No route to host). 12:47:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:48:24 or maybe "first, second, twoth, threeth" 12:49:16 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pamai claims that "nomai" is lojban for ordinal 0, but the link contradicts this 12:49:41 It probably has the same status as "zeroth" 12:49:49 Jafet: yes, "nomai" means 0th 12:49:53 no wait 12:49:57 you mean "nomoi" 12:50:38 fi:"no moi" -> en:"oh, hello" 12:50:42 but I for one would recommend keeping "moi" as context-sensitive and using longer words when you want to specify zero-based or one-based 12:52:37 fizzie: More like en:ohai 12:52:39 specifically something like "se lidnemei" for zero-based ordinal index 12:52:56 Actually, I believe that chinese use the same words for cardinals and ordinals, so you should be able to use 0-based counting without as much confusion 12:54:20 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one 一; https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/first 第一 12:55:40 * oerjan likes how romance languages use the definite article to turn comparative into superlative 12:58:59 ille maior 12:59:32 well latin didn't, afair 12:59:43 it didn't even _have_ articles 12:59:44 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:00:29 and the latin superlative turned into a kind of emphasizing in italian 13:02:13 the original comparative still remains in a few words, maggiore being one of them 13:03:31 i just love how puella is etymologically the diminutive form of puer 13:05:54 I think in early literature both puellus and puera were in use 13:06:18 as I understand it domain name prices vary much more by the dotword at the end than by registrar 13:07:20 Chines and japanese cont things using a counter and the word 13:08:29 for japanese, you could say 0番,1番,2番 13:10:14 note that here zero is pronounced as chinese "rei" rather than "zero" 13:10:55 so that would be 0th, 1st, 2nd 13:11:47 yes, but which one means the first in a row? 13:14:21 For more confusion, oftentimes the first question on a test sheet is labeled '例' which is also pronounced 'rei' but means 'example'. 13:17:16 because japanese people decided, oh, let's just get rid of these tones, noone will care 13:41:54 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:50:55 -!- `^_^v has joined. 13:50:57 @tell mroman are there unreal floats <-- there are complex numbers 13:50:57 Consider it noted. 13:51:08 :t pi 13:51:09 Floating a => a 13:51:20 > pi :: Complex Double 13:51:21 3.141592653589793 :+ 0.0 13:58:52 -!- GeekDude has joined. 14:06:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:26:30 `unidecode gardеnеr 14:26:30 [U+0067 LATIN SMALL LETTER G] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+0435 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER IE] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0435 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER IE] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] 14:27:56 -!- atrapado has joined. 14:32:12 argh stupid perl insists that I balance my }})} parenthesis because otherwise it won't figure out what ends where 14:33:50 That is reasonable? 14:34:45 -!- quietello has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:36:02 -!- mauris has joined. 14:37:59 -!- quietello has joined. 15:02:25 i think randall munroe messed up his graphics today 15:06:32 I don't know, maybe it's a stylistic choice. 15:06:37 It reminds me of a fax. 15:07:05 ...maybe it is one. 15:07:36 it was better last night 15:07:58 Yeah, I didn't notice anything weird when I looked at the RSS feed. 15:08:16 huh 15:08:48 (Which I think took me to m.xkcd.com.) 15:13:16 [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43572&oldid=41679 * LegionMammal978 * (-30) fixed spec 15:14:05 argh I'm gonna be sick 15:14:10 b_jonas, :( 15:15:25 ah the forum mentions a typo that has been removed 15:15:37 (it originally said kevin kostner) 15:16:00 as well as some others that haven't. 15:19:12 -!- SopaXT has joined. 15:28:41 -!- mauris has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:29:10 -!- mauris has joined. 15:31:18 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:50:21 -!- Wright has joined. 15:55:54 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:55:58 -!- Wright_ has joined. 16:34:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:00:43 [wiki] [[DcScript]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43573&oldid=33524 * LegionMammal978 * (+9) this page could use some specs 17:11:21 -!- white_bear has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:32:47 -!- comodvs has joined. 18:26:54 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 18:30:15 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:08:22 -!- comodvs has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:17:48 -!- tromp__ has joined. 19:22:29 -!- tromp__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:45:34 -!- akam_ has joined. 19:58:00 -!- akam_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:15:25 -!- mauris has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:16:18 -!- lleu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:16:41 -!- lleu has joined. 20:16:41 -!- lleu has quit (Changing host). 20:16:41 -!- lleu has joined. 21:02:45 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:24:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:24:55 that was a short log section... 21:25:53 `wisdom 21:25:54 `wisdom 21:25:54 `wisdom 21:25:54 αλτγρ+γ/αλτγρ+γ is the national dead pastry of Greece. Goes great with a glass of ouzo! 21:25:55 _̰̆̓_�̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_͂͋͒ͧ͋�̯͙̬̬̦̯̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞/_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖́̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̈̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖́̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̈̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ 21:25:55 rholypoly/A rholypoly is an edible Greek species of Armadillidiidae. Goes well with garlic! 21:25:55 hth 21:26:25 `unidecode + 21:26:26 [U+002B PLUS SIGN] 21:26:40 i don't think greek words generally contain that. 21:27:50 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:29:09 -!- atrapado has joined. 21:29:51 what, armadillidiidae actually exist 21:31:13 wisdom is pretty greek today 21:31:14 `` rgrep -il gree wisdom 21:31:16 wisdom/αλτγρ+γ \ wisdom/cow \ wisdom/rholypoly \ wisdom/catamorphism 21:31:40 `? cow 21:31:41 A cow is an animal best served at minus zero degrees. 21:32:36 hm the armadillidiidae and armadillidae articles contradict each other 21:34:07 -!- atrapado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:34:41 -!- atrapado has joined. 21:35:04 what about the atrapadidae, i wonder 21:49:15 -!- mauris has joined. 21:50:37 argh 21:51:52 i thought a 45 min old unanswered stackoverflow question was reasonably safe from having someone else finish their answer before me, but noo... 22:13:23 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:14:21 shachaf: do you know an example of a Category that's also Functor (modulo no. of parameters), but not an `Arrow`? 22:15:02 if so, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/31618370/is-f-fmap-f-id-always-equivalent-to-arr 22:15:21 * oerjan has been doing too much markdown 22:17:19 How about a Category that's a Profunctor? 22:17:27 that would work 22:17:36 I mean, not that I have one. 22:17:44 :t \f -> rmap f C.id 22:17:45 (Category p, Profunctor p) => (b -> c) -> p b c 22:17:46 i was looking up profunctors but then remembered they didn't have to be categories 22:17:51 :t \f -> lmap f C.id 22:17:53 (Category p, Profunctor p) => (a -> c) -> p a c 22:18:18 Usually profunctors aren't categories. 22:18:30 It's only in the bizarre framework of Haskell that it even makes much sense for one to be the other. 22:18:44 fancy 22:19:11 Anyway back in the day when I thought about those things I'd maybe be able to give a useful answer. 22:19:23 I definitely remember this lmap/rmap f id thing coming up somewhere. 22:19:26 hm... 22:20:07 Anyway, if your type is both a Category and an Arrow, then \f -> rmap f id = arr, I think. 22:20:10 hm no pumpkins in channel, and edwardk is long idle 22:20:32 shachaf: the case for when you know its an Arrow is well established. 22:20:46 Oh, your link talks about that. 22:21:27 There's probably something which is both Category and Functor but not Arrow. 22:21:39 yep, probably. 22:21:46 Why would every Category+Functor thing have products? 22:21:51 @src Arrow 22:21:51 class Arrow a where 22:21:51 arr, pure :: (b -> c) -> a b c 22:21:51 (>>>) :: a b c -> a c d -> a b d 22:21:51 first :: a b c -> a (b,d) (c,d) 22:21:51 second :: a b c -> a (d,b) (d,c) 22:21:53 (***) :: a b c -> a b' c' -> a (b,b') (c,c') 22:21:55 (&&&) :: a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c,c') 22:22:03 That's a few lines more than I hoped for. 22:22:12 Anyway, no reason to expect it. 22:22:18 indeed, so i don't 22:22:37 are you hinting that i'm not being very helpful 22:22:41 still, i find the SO question is missing the nail in the coffin 22:23:01 should i use a more solid object for hinting? 22:23:22 i didn't realize you were equipped with a mapole 22:23:36 no, but i have the saucepan 22:23:59 also i'm sure there must be an example in one of edwardk's package, if i only knew them 22:24:03 my impression was that you don't cook very much 22:24:05 *packages 22:24:11 that is true. 22:24:20 how did you end up with the saucepan? 22:24:47 rule of plot relevance 22:24:51 has it ever been used for sauce? 22:25:07 hardly, ASCII characters don't hold sauce well 22:25:31 * oerjan should check if he has a physical one 22:25:35 you're an ASCII character 22:25:42 `? saucepan 22:25:43 saucepan? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 22:25:46 help 22:26:13 not in this house, i think 22:26:28 oerjan: I found out that edwardk doesn't even have data T f a = L a | B (T f (f a)) anywhere. 22:26:41 shocking 22:26:49 Though he does have the dual. 22:27:24 ski: Maybe you know the answer to oerjan's question? 22:29:19 ski: aka, is there a Category that is Functor but not Arrow 22:32:43 hm ReifiedFold is an Arrow 22:33:00 * oerjan loaded Control.Lens to see what new Category instances popped up 22:33:41 as is Indexed i 22:34:04 * oerjan tried :info! 22:34:09 oerjan: remember the good old days of lens when a type like Indexed was how everything worked? 22:34:10 *s 22:34:22 i'm not sure 22:34:31 type Iso a b c d = forall k f. (Isomorphic k, Functor f) => k (c -> f d) (a -> f b) 22:35:10 type IndexedTraversal i a b c d = forall f k. (Indexed i k, Applicative f) => k (c -> f d) (a -> f b) 22:35:13 that thing 22:35:35 ...okay, whatever 22:36:22 Cokleisli too... 22:38:07 Op is not, but it's not Functor either 22:38:10 -!- x10A94 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:40:08 something tells me Coercion isn't a Functor either 22:40:41 or :~: 22:40:47 can you just find a category which isn't contravariant in the first argument 22:41:09 Op works for that 22:41:31 and which is covariant in the secone argument, i mean 22:41:36 that's definitely not going to be an Arrow 22:41:51 wait, that makes no sense 22:42:00 such a thing can't exist 22:42:02 i don't think that's possible, actually 22:42:02 never mind tdnh 22:42:16 it's gotta be the products 22:42:21 because from Functor and Category you get, essentially, arr (but not the rest of Arrow) 22:42:28 yep 22:42:43 and that gives you contravariance too 22:43:29 yep 22:45:25 hm Pipes doesn't seem to define any Categories, despite being thorougly based on categories 22:45:54 * oerjan restarts WinGHCi to see how much of this depends on what packages are loaded 22:46:16 ok it does matter for that 22:49:37 http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/soft/ld-expl 22:49:51 "World's best exploit: ld-expl. It still works - amaze your friends!" 22:50:21 -!- mauris_ has joined. 22:51:35 Must nitpick about the complete unnecessity of having a named file for the source. 22:53:07 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:58:28 -!- `^_^v has joined. 23:02:26 -!- tromp__ has joined. 23:11:59 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:13:59 * ski can never recall what the difference between "profunctor" and "difunctor" is (if there is any) :/ 23:18:11 ski: I think they usually mean the same thing. 23:18:12 -!- tromp__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:24:06 so difunctor isn't the same as bifunctor? 23:24:53 * oerjan has been wondering if you could make a polykinded Functor that supported both co- and contravariance 23:25:20 so that all of functor, bifunctor and profunctor would just be special cases 23:25:31 if you have a small category `C', then `Hom_C : C^op * C >---> Set', so given an object `A' in `C^op', `(B |-> Hom_C (A,B)) : C >---> Set' is a (covariant) functor 23:25:44 oerjan: No, difunctor is as in dinatural transformation, or something along those lines. 23:25:47 di like diagonal? 23:25:50 I don't remember. 23:25:53 oerjan : i don't know the definition of "profunctor", so i can't tell 23:26:28 (a "difunctor" from `A' and `B' to `C' is a bifunctor from `A^op' and `B' to `C') 23:26:28 ski: um, my question is about the haskell Category, Functor and Arrow classes, specifically 23:26:30 The Haskell definition we're using is class Profunctor p where dimap :: (x -> a) -> (b -> y) -> p a b -> p x y 23:26:42 Oh, right, we're not even using a Haskell definition. 23:27:06 basically, to find an example of something that cannot be given an Arrow instance despite having the rest 23:27:30 A Category with fmap which doesn't have products. 23:27:42 oerjan : do you mean "can't be given a (valid) `arr'" definition ? or also the product structure ? 23:27:56 ski: no, arr can be defined from the pieces given 23:28:02 (fmap f id) 23:28:04 You can make a (valid) `arr' definition from Category and fmap 23:28:28 oerjan : i was pondering whether that would always satisfy laws (assuming a general CT setting, not just in Haskell) 23:28:30 So products are the whole deal. 23:28:39 Which is surprising given how unproductive this discussion has been. 23:29:12 ski: sometime i should find out about profunctors and chu spaces and things 23:29:22 `? chu space 23:29:23 A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention. 23:29:30 i suppose you _could_ even have the product structure, if you manage to find one of the examples of something that's Category + Applicative but not Arrow. 23:29:44 (but fails the connecting laws) 23:30:11 but i suspect something without product would be easier 23:33:31 * oerjan just favorites the question in case someone else answers 23:37:18 -!- atrapado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:41:11 oerjan: you can't give up now!! 23:42:41 -!- tromp__ has joined. 23:42:49 * oerjan is really good at giving up, you know 23:43:08 what kind of evil overlord does that make you 23:43:24 a failed one hth 23:45:32 hm what about a free construction 23:47:35 data Fnord t a b where Fn :: (a -> b) -> Fnord t a b; Base :: (t a b) -> Fnord t a b 23:47:51 oh wait, needs composition 23:48:05 ...but only some kinds 23:49:01 so is there a free category somewhere... well there are thrists 23:49:19 -!- tromp__ has quit. 23:49:29 -!- Wright has joined. 23:49:37 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:50:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:50:54 Hi 23:51:11 ho 23:51:33 -!- ocharles___ has joined. 23:52:01 Someone needs to implement a tangle-bracket language 23:52:02