00:01:57 -!- nisstyre has quit (Changing host). 00:01:57 -!- nisstyre has joined. 00:10:06 -!- rg_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:10:43 -!- rg_ has joined. 00:13:24 good night 00:13:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:14:27 -!- _256Q has joined. 00:16:47 -!- Wright has joined. 00:18:17 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:20:58 -!- mauris has joined. 00:25:05 -!- Frooxius has joined. 00:28:47 -!- mauris_ has joined. 00:32:27 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:34:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:41:17 -!- tromp has joined. 00:45:25 -!- mauris_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:46:12 -!- rg_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:46:47 -!- rg_ has joined. 00:54:52 -!- rg_ has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 01:04:37 -!- rg_ has joined. 01:06:56 I would want a variant of the "fixed" font that is also including the DEC technical characters, and preferably also support for PC character set and PETSCII, and possibly also the Infocom character graphics 01:16:43 -!- Aearnus has joined. 01:24:50 A new kind of Magic: the Gathering card: "At the beginning of each combat damage step, the active player chooses and taps a land he controls, and then if it is not your turn the active player draws a card." 01:28:37 s/taps a land/taps an untapped land/ 01:31:03 I need to learn MtG 01:33:51 zzo38: A real Magic: The Gathering card would say "a land he or she controls" 01:33:52 > 2 ≥ 1 01:33:53 Not in scope: ‘≥’ 01:33:56 bah 01:34:30 shachaf: Yes 01:35:21 > (\x → x) 1 01:35:23 1 01:35:32 zzo38: I'm not sure I follow that card. 01:35:42 "active player" is the same as "the player whose turn it is", right? 01:36:22 Yes. For the card drawing effect, it must be your teammate or your opponent, but the other effect includes everyone (unless that player controls no untapped lands) 01:36:47 So the card helps everyone except you? 01:37:01 I must be missing something. 01:37:02 If you have a card that lets you draw cad instead of opponent, then you will draw a card, but it still doesn't work during your own turn. 01:37:50 And if you have Underworld Dreams, then opponent will both draw a card and lose 1 life point. 01:39:58 (You can also donate it to allow you to draw a card, or steal such a card from opponent to prevent yourself from drawing a card.) 01:40:51 Drawing a card and losing a life is almost always beneficial for your opponent, isn't it? 01:41:17 I'm not sure whether there are any cards that have negative effects and require Donate to be useful. 01:41:36 Clearly it depends on the circumstances, such as their current life points, how many cards remain in their library, and effects that depend on how many cards are in some player's hand. 01:42:29 There are things like Demonic Pact. 01:48:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:51:34 OK, I can see that now too 02:01:23 Now I have all of cp-437 02:04:50 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 02:05:24 Later I'll go back and increase coverage to entire unicode blocks 02:09:52 -!- rg_ has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 02:14:25 -!- rg_ has joined. 02:15:59 -!- rg_ has quit (Client Quit). 02:18:02 LATIN EXTENDED A is done 02:19:07 Er, wait wat 02:19:36 Ok apparently there is Latin-1 then Latin-A then Latin-B. WTF 02:25:05 -!- rg_ has joined. 02:32:51 -!- _256Q has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:32:55 -!- rg_ has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 03:02:10 -!- Wright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:02:31 -!- Wright has joined. 03:04:59 -!- bb010g has joined. 03:14:21 -!- rg_ has joined. 03:17:06 * oerjan is now on windows 10 03:17:36 i sense a bit of a cognitive dissonance. i think i switched every single configuration toggle in the setup. 03:19:12 What sorts of toggles? 03:19:16 I hear the start menu is back. 03:19:50 hm looks like it 03:20:25 shachaf: everything suggesting sending information to microsoft and/or sharing data with/between apps 03:20:33 Oh, that. 03:20:37 Yep. 03:21:43 also, IE seems replaced with something new and edgy, i wonder if i can find my tabs again... 03:25:14 ok this is unacceptable hm... 03:25:52 ah there 03:26:11 Windows should really come with a dessert menu 03:27:43 "There must be no space between the #` and the opening bracket character. (There may be the visual appearance of space for some double-wide characters, however, such as the corner quotes above.) 03:27:43 " 03:27:51 That's surprisingly acknowleding of Unicodeness 03:28:02 hm typing into putty is annoyingly slow 03:28:06 But I think if Perl6 has any strengths at all, Unicode is looking like one 03:28:27 I'm thinking vararg handling might be another, but not sure yet 03:29:51 ok vim is still fast 03:34:24 * oerjan vaguely suspect this upgrade was a mistake. oh well. 03:34:47 oerjan: I've stopped being able to boot to Windows so I don't have to worry about this problem. 03:35:01 more seriously, my touchpad driver menu has disappeared again and the usual method to fix it doesn't seem to be working. 03:39:47 YEAH! now I have everything from the first 3 unicode blocks 03:40:29 Now maybe I'll do Latin B 03:43:40 why does ʼn exist? 03:44:56 -!- rg_ has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 03:45:16 `unidecode ʼn 03:45:33 ​[U+0149 LATIN SMALL LETTER N PRECEDED BY APOSTROPHE] [U+0020 SPACE] 03:46:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:46:45 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 03:48:38 -!- codergeek42 has joined. 03:48:42 -!- codergeek42 has quit (Changing host). 03:48:42 -!- codergeek42 has joined. 03:48:49 -!- rg_ has joined. 03:53:09 -!- rg_ has quit (Client Quit). 03:53:51 the touchpad scroll actually works, but in the opposite direction. 03:54:09 oerjan: Oh no, they copied Apple on that evil change? 03:55:01 well i assume it's connected to the loss of my driver menu, which i've always sort of suspected competed with MS's setup 03:55:17 -!- tromp has joined. 03:56:31 perhaps that has been removed as not working in W10, in which case i guess i need to find the actual windows menu for it... 04:07:17 * pikhq wonders if RC4 is ever going to die. 04:07:49 I mean, it *should*, but it's not already dead and there's attacks on it on the order of "individual researchers can do decryption on it in the span of a couple days". 04:08:33 It is not always used for encryption though, and even if it is sometimes various improved versions are used 04:09:39 Found another typo in a Perl 6 design doc, someone else fixed 04:10:11 It's really bad for RNG use too -- the RC4 random bit stream can be identified and in some cases predicted. 04:11:26 It's worth noting that the "arc4random" function is not necessarily using the RC4 algorithm, contrary to the name. :) 04:14:03 It can work if you don't need it to be so unpredictable and that stuff. 04:14:32 But then you may as well use a Mersenne twister. 04:16:58 Should I do Latin B next or complete the coverage of Greek? 04:32:33 * oerjan finds a touchpad upgrade download but it's horribly slow 04:33:06 oh well, at least it's progressing. shave -> 04:33:19 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:43:02 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:44:37 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:51:40 "And yes, an int1 can store only -1 or 0. I'm sure someone'll think of a use for it... 04:51:40 " 04:52:15 :) 04:53:36 There is a 1-bit integer type in LLVM, although I think it is commonly consder unsigned 04:56:29 "someone the other day made the mistake of saying the specs are specifications. I quickly corrected them of that nonsense; they're speculations." 04:58:01 All of Windows 1252 is now supported 04:58:54 Sgeo: perfectly usable for BASIC combined boolean-logical arithmetics. 04:59:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:00:16 Yes, in BASIC, as well as in Forth, it is commonly use -1 for true and 0 for false, so that you don't need separate bitwise and logical AND and OR operators. Although, at least Forth has a 0= operator. 05:00:30 -!- augur has joined. 05:34:00 -!- tromp has joined. 05:35:12 -!- quietello has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:38:02 -!- codergeek42 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 05:38:30 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:39:59 finally scroll works in the right direction again. 05:41:59 * oerjan optimistically checks out girl genius. hey it's already updated! 05:42:24 can you make olist update twh 05:43:26 sorry, just used up that spell slot 05:44:22 twhib 05:46:38 spot of the spot check, governor? 06:21:11 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:04:54 -!- Frooxius has joined. 07:17:17 -!- x10A94 has joined. 07:21:48 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:22:58 -!- x1365C has joined. 07:23:26 -!- tromp has joined. 07:23:32 -!- x16444 has joined. 07:26:00 -!- x10A94 has quit (Disconnected by services). 07:26:13 -!- x16444 has changed nick to x10A94. 07:27:06 -!- x1365C has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:27:30 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:33:08 "„I know!”, a gemstone-fascinated person would say, „We can monkey-patch IO::Socket::INET”. And then we have two problems. " 07:36:21 Heh 07:49:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: /Z/ZZ/). 08:13:03 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:13:21 my font now supports all the block elements 08:13:37 and most of the geometric shapes 08:15:26 -!- hppavilion[1]_ has joined. 08:16:45 Hellu 08:17:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Page closed). 08:17:20 -!- hppavilion[1]_ has changed nick to hppavilion[1][0]. 08:17:30 I AM NOW TWO DIMENSIONAL 08:17:33 FEAR MY WRATH 08:17:51 You still come across as kinda flat 08:19:07 And the audience boos Taneb 08:31:18 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:35:12 -!- tromp has joined. 08:35:47 750 characters! 08:36:15 -!- hppavilion[1][0] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:39:07 -!- Melvar has joined. 08:39:26 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:43:54 well I'm done for today, i'll do more tomorrow 08:43:57 http://www.orenwatson.be/neoletters.ttf 08:43:58 -!- SopaXT has joined. 08:45:38 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:45:54 -!- SopaXT has joined. 08:46:42 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 08:47:02 So here's an idea for an esoteric file system: 08:47:08 Bloom filter filesys 08:47:23 It's impossible for know for certain if a file exists 08:47:30 Though you can know for certain if it doesn't 08:51:10 It'd be easy to find files with small identifiers but harder to find files with large ones 08:51:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:55:40 -!- hooplavilion[1] has joined. 08:55:42 Dammit firefox 08:55:52 Did anyone say anything while I was gone? 08:55:54 But anway 08:56:00 Bloom Filter Filesys 08:56:10 You can only be certain if a file isn't in the system 08:56:26 And the more files you have, the less certain you can be when it si 08:56:31 s/si/is 08:59:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 08:59:48 Windows 10 Solitaire has Ads. 08:59:50 nice! 08:59:59 mroman: Don't worry, you can pay to get rid of them. 09:00:25 fizzie: Well, that's fair then. 09:00:28 It's a "freemium" operating system. 09:00:45 -!- hooplavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:00:56 Seriously, this ad bullshit has to stop. 09:01:25 mroman: what a great way for a poor corporation to get money, though 09:02:10 "An ad-free internet would cost each user at least £140 a year – a sum that the vast majority of UK web users say they would never pay, according to new research. " 09:02:13 I call bullshit on that. 09:03:21 Don't worry 09:03:28 Practically, where would the money go? To the ISP? Where would the ISP send that money? 09:03:53 Pay-per-view internet? ;-; 09:03:56 Websites could just use paypal or something. 09:04:02 or pay-per-view through micro-payment services 09:04:03 Someone will make a free and better version of Windows Solitare without ads because that's a humanitarian effort obviously 09:04:13 Pay-per-view internet 09:04:15 hppavilion[1]: There probably are already 09:04:20 NET NEUTRALITY ALERT 09:04:21 NET NEUTRALITY ALERT 09:04:27 BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP 09:04:36 NET NEUTRALITY ALERT 09:04:58 why? 09:05:06 net neutrality doesn't prohibit you from collecting money. 09:05:11 True 09:05:16 A youtube account will cost 10$ a year. 09:05:20 I was kidding 09:05:34 I'd pay that. 09:05:36 I mean, there are already websites behind paywalls 09:05:42 Why not go all the way? 09:05:50 Or you could just use Adblock 09:05:59 And subscribe to Patreons and such 09:06:07 But only for youtubers you actually like 09:06:48 Does that mean people in the UK are giving up £140 each year to ads? 09:07:06 (Make that ~£200, after overheads.) 09:07:25 I think they just calculated how much ad companies pay to show their ads. 09:07:34 and then divided that by the number of UK citizens 09:07:54 Probably 09:08:02 That's pretty much science 09:08:07 Because no UK citizens use ad block, of course 09:08:22 Well, the ads are either worth the expense (in which case the above is true) or they're not (in which case the number is meaningless) 09:08:41 I'd say if the ad companies pay that much money they are worth it 09:08:44 There's an assigned scientific variable called Ukc which stands for "Number of Citizens of the United Kindom of Great Britain and Blah Blah Blah" 09:08:54 True fact. 09:08:57 I'm pretty sure the ad companies aim for profit. 09:09:01 so... 09:09:06 Ad companies actually love adblock 09:09:11 Because that way 09:09:14 they will probably make more money than what they pay 09:09:21 They don't pay for users who would never click their ads 09:09:50 I haven't yet intentionally clicked on any ad 09:10:08 only google search results. 09:10:16 I don't click on ads becasue it is technologically impossible for me to do so :P 09:10:21 which might be skewed as well... 09:10:35 Now, it's plausible that good analytics for an affluent country like the UK can be worth £200 per person per year) 09:10:43 s/)/./ 09:13:34 I like Bloom Filters 09:14:11 I've heard ad companies pay ad block money to not block them :) 09:14:25 or at least that's still a conspiracy theory. 09:14:27 No 09:14:33 Ad Companies like adblock 09:14:38 Just think 09:14:55 Is someone who uses adblock _ever_ going to click on an ad, even without adblock? 09:14:56 No 09:15:28 https://adblockplus.org/acceptable-ads-agreements 09:15:34 Oh right 09:15:37 Acceptable ads 09:15:42 Unless it's one of those tricky "download now" ads 09:15:47 :P 09:15:50 Yes 09:15:53 Of course 09:15:59 see 09:16:04 "Download Now" ad makers should be arrested 09:16:07 they get paid for the acceptable ads :) 09:16:21 And brutally, graphically executed in public 09:17:50 Ad networks don't actually care about the minuscule expense of serving ads to users. They even use HTTPS now, so that the ads are harder to filter. 09:19:32 Dammit 09:20:46 (Amusingly, those ads can now also take much longer to load, due to the TLS handshake.) 09:23:08 -!- shikhin has changed nick to shikhi. 09:23:27 -!- shikhi has changed nick to shikhin. 09:24:07 -!- shikhin has changed nick to hikhin. 09:25:29 `hi shikhin 09:25:30 Hi shikhin. Hikhin. 09:26:00 -!- hikhin has changed nick to shikhin. 09:26:03 Hey. 09:27:40 -!- puckipedia has joined. 09:28:10 real time ad bidding 09:28:12 that's the real stuff 09:42:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Page closed). 10:01:35 -!- Froox has joined. 10:07:41 -!- AnotherTest_ has joined. 10:08:00 -!- t3cora has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:08:00 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:08:00 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:08:01 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:08:01 -!- AnotherTest_ has changed nick to AnotherTest. 10:08:16 -!- t3cora has joined. 10:13:09 -!- lambdabot has joined. 10:19:32 -!- jameseb has joined. 10:24:28 -!- tromp has joined. 10:28:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:29:04 -!- boily has joined. 11:08:59 `wisdom 11:09:00 hockey/Hockey 11:09:05 ... 11:09:15 that's not very wisdommy. 11:10:55 `le/rn hockey/Hockey is okey, but parsley is gharsley. 11:11:01 Learned «hockey» 11:18:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:26:02 `wisdom 11:26:03 el camino real/There is no royal road to analytic geometry. 11:26:50 strange. I expected Taneb to have invented it. 11:27:39 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ABROGATED CHICKEN). 11:31:08 `wisdom 11:31:09 c#/C Pound is Java's good twin. 11:31:14 heh 11:31:27 `wisdom Rust 11:31:29 find: `wisdom/*Rust*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory 11:31:33 `? Rust 11:31:34 Rust? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:32:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:37:34 `wisdom 11:37:35 irrelevant info/KHL?%y9vnkM_v46$Tn`ʋxkH2gqH;!;2F(zإ2CmXW 11:37:48 o/ 11:37:57 _o/ 11:37:57 | 11:37:57 |\ 11:38:05 b_jonas: Did You get a Level-Up and can increase Stats now? 11:38:09 *Hangman* 11:38:22 Ah, okay. 11:38:27 Had not seen the Backlog. B) 11:40:14 -!- idris-bot has joined. 11:55:39 -!- tromp has joined. 12:00:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:05:55 `? fisdom 12:05:56 fisdom? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:06:57 `learn fisdom is the domination by the feder inspection station. 12:07:00 Learned 'fisdom': fisdom is the domination by the feder inspection station. 12:07:05 `learn fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station. 12:07:07 Learned 'fisdom': fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station. 12:17:18 tswett: how big is the RNN you've been training on the logs? 12:18:44 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:25:18 -!- Frooxius has joined. 12:26:16 -!- Froox has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:26:25 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:45:14 fungot: Why would you want to do that? 12:45:14 mroman: train goes soon. in a more or less anything at random in esoteric. no sir! 12:47:51 -!- tromp has joined. 12:52:43 -!- temp has joined. 13:03:40 -!- GeekDude has joined. 13:03:45 -!- GeekDude has quit (Changing host). 13:03:45 -!- GeekDude has joined. 13:08:54 -!- `^_^v has joined. 13:15:10 -!- temp has quit (Quit: Page closed). 13:15:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:18:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:32:59 -!- ais523 has quit. 13:34:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:36:52 fungot: train to where? 13:36:52 mroman: including baby fnord. if not, will you? i chat with people on the comittee that decided that i'm not i shall rape you into submission!!! 13:37:13 It rapes you into submission 13:37:19 what.. the.. f.... 13:38:03 fungot: are you a RSO? 13:38:03 mroman: he was banned from haskell over a year ago 13:38:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 13:38:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:57:04 -!- nycs has joined. 13:59:48 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:09:55 ^style 14:09:55 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 14:10:45 <|f`-`|f> RSO? 14:12:46 Rape submission officer, presumably 14:13:35 registered sex offender 14:13:38 presumably 14:20:03 -!- nycs has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:22:01 I wonder which channel that gem is from. 14:22:29 Okay, #esoteric. Big surprise there. 14:23:14 http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2008-06-04#204157GregorR 14:25:01 <|f`-`|f> gg fizzie 14:25:15 -!- nycs has joined. 14:42:42 "The breakthrough is unlikely to see people losing their jobs to software-creating computers, Harman explains. "We want to free programmers from their shackles, not to make them redundant," he says. Instead, it will free programmers up from boring tasks." 14:42:47 yeah right 14:42:47 that's complete bullshit 14:43:30 every automation will eventually cause someone's job. 14:43:41 *to loose 14:44:53 If you make something automatic, someone can't work the same hours he used to. 14:46:05 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:46:13 If something can be done more efficiently, you don't need as much workers 14:46:21 or if you keep the same amount of workers, you need more work. 14:46:42 <|f`-`|f> alternatively 14:46:47 <|f`-`|f> with increased productivity 14:46:54 <|f`-`|f> you can keep the same amount of workers 14:46:58 <|f`-`|f> with less hours per 14:47:10 <|f`-`|f> and have them do elective/voluntary projects 14:47:11 yeah, which means less pay for the worker usually. 14:47:21 unless they also pay you more per hour. 14:47:28 <|f`-`|f> you can thank the corporate tax and benefits system for that 14:47:38 <|f`-`|f> it's why burn rates are high for small businesses 14:48:01 <|f`-`|f> and when I mean benefits I mean the "employee "benefits"" 14:48:09 technically if your productivity is up, you should earn more 14:48:13 -!- shikhin has joined. 14:48:13 and if you earn more, you can pay more 14:48:43 but in general I think you will loose jobs. 14:48:43 <|f`-`|f> the issue is that unions eat 30% employee income 14:48:57 <|f`-`|f> and payroll taxes on top of beneifts, and employee taxes 14:49:14 <|f`-`|f> just bleeds money the more you make due to regression in the graduate taxes 14:49:44 although if you make certain tasks so easy, they can be done by uneducated humans 14:49:50 you actually make the more educated humans jobless 14:50:02 while the uneducated get more "factory jobs" :) 14:50:06 <|f`-`|f> You can pay more, much like you can by raising the minimum wage, but that moves everyone on minimum wage to a new tax bracket where they get screwed 14:50:38 * mroman imagines a time where programming apps is 95% factory work where you just click things together 14:50:51 and the other 5% writes modules the factory worker can put together :D 14:51:15 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 14:52:45 put yeah, a lot of programming is just doing the same things over and over again 14:52:48 and mostly boring :) 14:52:58 like writing UI for stuff 14:53:28 they should be semi-auto-generatable from some existing source code or description 14:53:41 <|f`-`|f> Which is why pressing programming into math is helpful 14:54:47 <|f`-`|f> (Auto derivation, machine proofs, etc) 14:56:41 yeah 14:56:45 but it'll cost me my job. 14:56:57 eventually 14:57:17 I'm the one that does these boring repetitive things 14:57:28 if you automate does I have nothing left to do. 14:57:30 *those 14:58:19 Jafet: IIRC, it's 3 layers, size 700. 14:58:38 That's why one should be happy to have a boring job. Because boring pays. 14:59:46 If you do research about how to make humans useless you should also do research what to do with the useless humans :P 15:02:13 -!- Wright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:02:15 -!- Wright_ has joined. 15:09:32 -!- atrapado has joined. 15:09:42 -!- rg_ has joined. 15:11:13 15:16:51 | | 15:16:51 |\ >\ 15:30:51 how come whenever I write haskell code I feel dirty? 15:31:17 you are crazy 15:31:23 haskell is pure beauty 15:32:27 myname: I feel like my code isn't beauty enough 15:33:47 -!- augur has joined. 15:36:27 -!- augur_ has joined. 15:38:00 -!- villain_sin has joined. 15:40:29 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:50:19 -!- Froox has joined. 15:53:38 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:55:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:07:11 -!- rg_ has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 16:16:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:26:49 -!- villain_sin has left ("c ya"). 16:54:33 -!- aretecode has joined. 17:31:12 haskell is a work of art, but you can still write ugly Haskell code:( 17:36:01 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 17:36:17 -!- idris-bot has joined. 17:37:50 -!- quietello has joined. 17:42:00 What you're saying is that you can write (ugly (Haskell code)), but not ((ugly Haskell) code)? 17:48:39 ugly Haskell is an esolang 17:48:51 in much the same way that compile-time C++ is 17:50:36 ahis523 17:51:00 Can you make sense of the following Magic: The Gathering card that zzo38 proposed yesterday?: "At the beginning of each combat damage step, the active player chooses and taps an untapped land he or she controls, and then if it is not your turn the active player draws a card." 17:56:25 I can 17:56:59 When would it be a good idea to play? 17:57:15 never 17:57:40 oh wow that card is bad 17:58:13 whyyy did I nuke my code directory 17:58:14 sigh 17:58:33 also that's templated in correctly, ", and then" should just be "." 17:58:46 coppro: restore from backup? 17:59:09 ais523: I just wrote it today 17:59:15 so no backup 17:59:18 ah right 17:59:23 recovering a day of work isn't normally too bad 17:59:26 yeah 17:59:26 I understand the mechanical interpretation but not why you would ever play that card. 17:59:29 just annoying 17:59:58 shachaf: it's zzo38, there probably isn't a reason 18:00:11 he's more interested in what is possible than what is useful 18:00:44 In the past zzo38 suggested cards that I didn't understand the point of at first but did eventually. 18:00:51 But I guess this isn't one of those. 18:02:02 actually I guess it wouldn't be so bad a card in Commander 18:02:18 any card that lets everyone else draw cards tends to be good there because it makes people less inclined to kill you 18:03:07 It lets your teammates draw cards too, not only your opponents, is another thing. (That assumes you have any teammates) 18:05:03 zzo38: ah right, it's probably a useful card in archenemy? howling mine effects are pretty good there 18:05:48 But there are also various combos including Underworld Dreams, and if someone has cards with first strike then there are two combat damage steps 18:06:06 Howling Mine looks pretty odd with modern rules. 18:06:21 But I vaguely remember something about artifacts being tapped in the good old days. 18:06:43 In old rules, abilities of tapped artifacts stop working (including poly artifacts) 18:07:20 scowling mine 18:08:22 right, when the rules changed so that tapping an artifact didn't blank its rules text any more 18:08:32 some artifacts got erratad to say "as long as CARDNAME is untapped,…" 18:09:01 You also used to be able to tap artifacts without a {T} ability, or something like that? 18:09:16 shachaf: If they are mono artifacts, then you have to tap it to pay its activation cost 18:09:38 There are no longer "mono artifacts", any one that requires tapping says {T} 18:12:22 I think mono artifacts and poly artifacts were actually added in Alpha (and then removed later); before Alpha the type was just "artifact", the activation cost was listed next to the mana cost, and all activation costs required tapping unless it specified otherwise. 18:15:49 Also the modern lands with only the mana symbol in the text box was actually the original way before Alpha was released. Mana costs originally had "3RR" meaning "three manas, at least two of which are red". 18:16:02 And the Plains cards before Alpha had pictures of airplanes on them. 18:16:14 zzo38: I think that's a better system. 18:16:33 Maybe even better is to take mana apart so that {R} is a linear combination of one colorless mana and one red. 18:16:49 Rather than one red mana. 18:17:44 I have thought of a kind of "algebraic system" where it would be written as "2r+1" 18:17:53 I don't know if that system is actually better. 18:17:57 It's what Prismata uses. 18:18:22 Prismata has five resources: gold, green, blue, red, and energy 18:18:35 Gold and green persist past end of turn, the rest don't. 18:18:52 Usually something costs some amount of gold and one or more of green, blue, red. 18:19:21 But I was thinking of this system before I ever played Prismata. 18:20:03 By the way, if y'all're interested, I think I have a couple of beta invitation codes left. 18:20:11 zzo38: that'd get ugly when you get to mana with restrictions, such as the mana from the second ability of Sliver Hive 18:20:26 Yes, mtg has other things like that. 18:20:39 It also has mana that gives a creature haste if it's used to cast it. 18:21:24 b_jonas: Yes, I know of thing like that, I wouldn't use my system in Magic: the Gathering anyways; just idea for other kind of game to use something 18:21:42 `unidecode ❎ 18:21:44 U+274E NEGATIVE SQUARED CROSS MARK \ UTF-8: e2 9d 8e UTF-16BE: 274e Decimal: ❎ \ ❎ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) 18:21:58 zzo38: eg. if a Forest produces a colorless mana and a green color, you can't spend the colorless mana to Imperiosaur, and the green color (together with some colorless mana produced by Sol Ring) to a Giant Growth 18:22:03 Someone in Agora Nomic just voted ❎❎❎❎❎ a proposal. 18:22:09 they're intrinsically fused 18:23:02 I conclude that this vote is insufficiently clear to be effective. 18:23:14 I don't. 18:23:27 feel free to CFJ the eventual resolution 18:23:39 If it matters, I probably will. 18:23:40 There is some crazy mana magic in M:tG. The craziest is probably Celestial Dawn. 18:23:42 b_jonas: I don't think this system is good for representing Magic: The Gathering mana. 18:23:44 b_jonas: Yes, I know those kind of thing, but that is different from my own idea 18:23:49 That vote could easily mean either FOR or AGAINST. 18:23:50 b_jonas: I think it might be good for another game. 18:24:16 shachaf: maybe 18:24:24 A cross mark tends to mean "no", but a cross mark in a box tends to mean "this one". 18:24:48 (and False Dawn and Sunglasses of Urza. how do they even invent such cards outside of un-sets?) 18:25:07 (I don't want to even know how those combine) 18:26:39 -!- nisstyre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:27:17 (Why don't they just stick to cards that change what mana is produced, like Naked Singularity, or cards that actually recolor mana, such as Orochi Leafcaller) 18:27:36 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: AdiIRC is updating to v1.9.7 Beta Build (2015/08/03)32 Bit). 18:27:59 So, I'm thinking about tensor products of mana systems. 18:28:02 -!- GeekDude has joined. 18:28:14 IIRC, there are six types of mana: colorless, white, blue, black, red, green. 18:28:33 The mana pool always contains some natural number (including zero) of each of these types. 18:28:38 correct 18:28:44 (I think the relevant rule is 609.4.) 18:28:48 some mana has additional characteristics attached 18:28:52 tswett: A natural number isn't enough, though. 18:29:03 Right, mana isn't necessarily fungible. 18:29:03 Because each individual mana can have additional jams. 18:29:11 such as whether it's snow, any spending restrictions, and special effects 18:29:14 fungot: are you necessarily fungible 18:29:14 shachaf: and impose limit on output size 18:29:17 So I'm pretty sure that under the tensor square of this system, each mana would simply have an ordered pair of these types. 18:29:41 although technically none of that is intrinsic to the mana 18:30:03 coppro: oh, I asked about how Imperiosaur works, as in, it checks the characteristics of the object that's produced the mana at what time (what the characteristics are when you pay, when the mana was produced, etc), but I don't remember the answer. 18:30:03 What is the dual of a constraint? 18:30:08 ski suggested "endowment" once. 18:30:24 -!- variable has joined. 18:30:30 b_jonas: it is not that the mana has the property "produced by basic land" 18:30:38 but that the game rules look at the history of the mana to figure out what applies to it 18:30:50 coppro: What is the effective difference here? 18:31:15 coppro: yes, but when does the object have to be a basic land? what if the object changes to a basic land or to no longer a basic land by the time I pay with the mana? 18:31:27 ah. don't know that one off hand 18:31:37 the same applies to snow mana 18:31:50 There's now two cards that change how mana empties from your mana pool. 18:31:59 The rules should be written as a literate computer program in order to make it more clearly. 18:32:00 There used to be more, but they affected only mana burn, which doesn't exist now. 18:36:34 It is what I would do if I invented the card game, I think. If you don't understand some circumstance, put it into the computer and it will automatically calculate the answer. 18:46:06 (Although it can work even if you do not have a computer) 18:48:41 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:49:37 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:50:05 -!- Froox has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 18:50:29 -!- Frooxius has joined. 18:53:05 -!- bb010g has joined. 18:55:24 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:59:22 Suppose I have a sorcery that says, "Tap target creature. You gain 1 life." 18:59:36 Can I cast this and gain 1 life from it if there are no creatures on the battlefield? 18:59:44 tswett: no 19:00:07 Is this because it's impossible to cast a spell if it calls for a target and there isn't a legal one? 19:00:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:00:44 No, there is no valid target 19:00:47 "If Evil were Midichlorians, this moose would be equal to THREE Darth Vaders" 19:01:03 tswett: an example for a card like that is Vicious Hunger. a more extreme example is Hex. 19:01:07 But it will work if there are creaturse but only tapped creatures in play, then you can target one that is already tapped, I think 19:01:34 zzo38: right 19:03:22 zzo38: some cards require tapping creatures as a _cost_ for an activated ability, such as Springleaf Drum, those helpfully say "tap an untapped" though I think just "tap" would work technically if it's in a cost 19:03:43 because invalid actions are ignored, but invalid costs cannot be payed 19:03:51 If it is a cost then it has to be untapped at first 19:03:56 By the way, it looks like if you somehow had a card with no characteristics, and you cast it, it would essentially behave as a sorcery. 19:04:02 But costs don't target anything 19:04:18 An annoying thing about Magic: The Gathering is that some cards let you target zero or more things. 19:04:19 A spell only enters the battlefield upon resolution if it's an artifact, creature, enchantment, or planeswalker. 19:04:45 But if you target a nonzero number of things, and then they all become invalid targets, the whole spell fizzles. 19:04:52 Even though you could have targeted nothing in the first place. 19:05:00 I don't know if its mana cost would be zero or unpayable. 19:05:02 That's a scow interaction of rules if you ask. 19:05:12 tswett: no, I don't think so. I think it would behave as an enchantment. but I don't think you can get a card with no type in the stack in any way. you can only get cards with no types as permanents, or as hidden cards. 19:05:28 b_jonas: why do you think it would behave as an enchantment? 19:05:37 tswett: as in, it would resolve 19:05:52 At least I would have it come into play and do nothing 19:05:59 But the rules don't seem to really specify 19:06:28 tswett: well, probably the rules don't really say, but the rules do say that Sorceries and Instants can't enter the battlefield 19:06:30 It would try to come into play, and since it isn't an instant or sorcery, it would succeed, I think 19:06:52 I think the rules do really say. 19:06:53 One moment. 19:07:29 608.3. "If the object that’s resolving is a permanent spell, its resolution involves a single step (unless it’s an Aura). The spell card becomes a permanent and is put onto the battlefield under the control of the spell’s controller." 19:07:37 tswett: I definitely think you can get typeless cards only as permanents (where you can do it by taking away types) or as hidden objects (cards in a library, hand, exiled face down, or just drawn while you're casting a spell) 19:08:13 tswett: but I think the typeless permanents (which are actually possible) sort of make a precendent, 19:08:30 I want to see an esolang that can physically manipulate reality 19:08:35 Is that too much to ask? 19:08:45 Maybe. 19:08:48 Er. 19:08:50 b_jonas: maybe. 19:09:00 tswett: also note how all effects that copy spells specifically allow you to copy only sorceries and instants, and that nothing can add or remove sorcery or instant type on an object except by turning it face down or making it hidden or unhidden 19:09:19 tswett: I think rule 608.3 isn't really answering this strange question, because it doesn't tell you if it is a "permanent spell" or not 19:09:29 zzo38: typeless spells are by definition not permanent spells. 19:09:36 By the definition of "permanent spell", that is. 19:09:45 tswett: yes, but you can't get such a spell so it's not a problem 19:09:48 I guess the rules don't give a resolution effect for typeless cards, so my assumption would be that they don't have any resolution effect at all. 19:10:04 tswett: they'll fix the rules when there becomes a way to get such a spell 19:10:18 Then I suppose they would just act like sorceries, since they would have to get discarded 19:10:22 b_jonas: can you give me an example of how a typeless permanent would come about? 19:10:27 Or possibly they would get exiled instead, I don't know? 19:11:08 But I would have avoided these problems by writing the rules as a literate computer program 19:12:01 tswett: a way is to temporarily animate an artifact with March of the Machines, make it no longer an artifact with Neurok Transmuter, then unanimate it by removing March of the Machines 19:12:20 tswett: there's other ways involving taking away some type, but this is the easiest to see 19:12:28 I don't think any of them are significantly different 19:13:16 Huh. I think March of the Machines would mean that artifact lands are no longer lands. 19:13:44 tswett: no, there's a separate rule for "is an artifact creature" that makes it not so 19:13:47 it's crazy 19:13:52 Oh... weird. 19:14:02 205.1b (in some version of the rules) 19:14:08 yeah, #esoteric 19:14:11 On leap years, February of the Machines 19:14:31 shachaf: yeah. 19:14:33 I have made up the card that can remove all supertypes and subtypes of a spell 19:14:57 zzo38: hmm... that would be strange. let me check what are all supertypes and subtypes these days. 19:15:25 Supertypes are: basic, legendary, ongoing, snow, and world. 19:16:03 These include (but are not limited to): World, Legendary, Snow, Aura, and creature types. 19:16:32 (As well as planeswalker subtypes) 19:17:44 Subtypes are: tons of creature types, a few dozen planeswalker types, three artifact types (Contraption, Equipment, Fortification), enchantment types (Aura, Curse, Shrine), land types (five basic land types plus currently Desert, Gate, Lair, Locus (hi land mirror thingy), Mine, Power-Plant (Urza-tron), Tower, Urza's), and spell types (Arcane and Trap). 19:17:49 I think that's exhaustive. 19:17:54 I wonder what's the simplest card that would just break the game. 19:18:00 "Delete target rule." 19:18:07 That would be pretty breaky. 19:18:08 Oh no it's not, there's also plane types. 19:18:10 Well, you cannot target rules 19:18:17 Why not? 19:18:18 But other than that, yes it break the game 19:18:50 -!- rg_ has joined. 19:19:07 The rules don't make rules a valid target; a target can be a player, object, or zone, I think. 19:19:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:19:13 * tswett nods. 19:19:24 Well, then, "Choose a rule and delete it." 19:19:49 Yes, that would break the game completely 19:20:00 tswett: the simplest card that breaks the game is Little Girl I think 19:20:14 "All cards become their own controllers." Except maybe cards can't be controllers. 19:21:04 Cards can't control stuff, except with my variant rule where planeswalkers can control stuff other than planeswalkers or players. 19:21:15 that breaks either the game or a card (the Chaos Confetti way) if you try to measure its Soul's Majesty 19:21:19 Hmmmm. 19:21:47 no really, there's tons of fun un-cards that break the rule in lots of interesting ways 19:21:54 "Put all cards on the battlefield." 19:22:07 "Play all cards as written. Ignore all errata." 19:22:17 zzo38: hmm, was that an un-card? 19:22:19 -!- _256Q has joined. 19:22:19 -!- _256Q has quit (Changing host). 19:22:19 -!- _256Q has joined. 19:22:29 b_jonas: Yes. 19:22:40 zzo38: maybe even better would be "Every card's flavor text is part of its rule text." 19:22:41 ah yes, R&D's Secret Lair 19:22:56 Anyway, I gotta go see about networking. 19:23:18 I had idea about the programming language to define the effect of the cards with. 19:23:18 tswett: I don't see how that's simpler than Little Girl 19:24:06 Some stuff such as Chaos Confetti and "Choose a rule and delete it" are probably not possible to define with this programming language. 19:24:43 zzo38: Which programming language is this? 19:24:59 I wanted to invent a programming language for something like Magic: The Gathering cards, but then I decided that it was too complicated. 19:25:05 Some that isn't quite invented yet 19:25:14 zzo38: I don't see Chaos Confetti as really that bad, compared to some other un-cards 19:26:37 though there's some un-cards where I'm not sure how bad they really are, like B.F.M. and S.N.O.T. 19:27:11 You could do Chaos Confetti if it has explicit rule support, which would require a host function macro (the function does not actually have to be implemented, but you must be able to identify it) 19:28:28 zzo38: there's two ugly parts of Chaos Confetti: the Chaos Orb part which requires manual dexterity and requires that nobody moves cards on the table after it's cast, and the Blacker part which requires to destroy the underlying card 19:29:04 both of those are bad from the perspective of what kind of game M:tG wants to be (Chaos Orb is banned), but they're not really that bad rules-wise I think 19:29:35 b_jonas: Yes, that is why I say, in order to implement with this programming language to make it mathematically defined, you must make a "external host function reference" 19:29:48 I wish they updated the Oracle text of un-cards. 19:30:26 zzo38: for the Chaos Orb part, yes. for the Blacker part, possibly no, if you implement ownership of cards in the same system as the rules, which can be done in MtgO 19:30:30 shachaf: hell NO! 19:30:46 whoa whoa whoa 19:30:51 I would prefer that they deleted the Oracle text of many un-cards (keeping only the copy of the printed text); and update the Oracle text of the ones that can be use with normal game. 19:30:56 (Even though they are banned) 19:31:05 shachaf: the un-rules manager who puts out un-rules faqs and makes un-rulings of the highest levels is Marc Rosewater, and he's very bad with templating, so if they updated Oracle text, they'd be crazy bad 19:31:21 shachaf: so just no 19:31:29 I just want them to say "enter the battlefield" instead of "come into play" and so on. 19:31:41 shachaf: why would _that_ help? 19:32:04 For consistency with modern cards and rules. 19:32:19 b_jonas: Actually for ownership of cards, well, it doesn't have to MtgO, just it is remove from the sideboard too, so you cannot use it in multiple game of the match. 19:32:52 Oh, what happens with Blacker Lotus if you play a multi-game match and you tear it up in the first game? 19:32:57 (Rule support for that function is still required though) 19:32:58 You can't play a second game with a 59-card deck. 19:33:11 shachaf: Take a card from your sideboard to replace it. 19:33:18 What if your sideboard is empty? 19:33:29 Then I suppose you have to concede before the game is started 19:34:00 zzo38: I think it has to be more than the match. it's the whole tournament, because you often have to use the same deck and sideboard for the whole tournament of multiple matches. 19:34:22 Yes, there is that too, so you may have to concede the entire tournament 19:34:48 b_jonas: Wouldn't your deck be restored to the original list of cards between matches? 19:35:08 For instance at the beginning of a new match you can't sideboard, you have to start with the cards that were in your deck originally. 19:35:21 Maybe that means that your whole deck resets, Blacker Lotuses included. 19:35:23 shachaf: hmm... 19:35:26 It depends on the tournament format I think 19:35:29 maybe you replace it with a basic land? 19:35:38 in some formats 19:36:26 In some Limited formats you do not have to register the deck, and in that case it is allowed to sideboard at the beginning of a new match, I think 19:36:49 I'd say replace it with a basic land in your deck or sideboard before the start of the next game or something 19:36:50 Unhinged lands are TG. 19:36:56 (but don't replace it during a game) 19:37:18 b_jonas: Hmm, I guess the same question might come up for ante cards. 19:37:35 shachaf: the ante cards are all banned because of that 19:37:50 shachaf: there's a ruling for Un sets that after destroying blacker lotus, you get to continue with the 59-card deck 19:37:54 shachaf: there's some rule about how to "play without ante" and what ante cards do in that case I think 19:38:00 but sure, they're banned, just like un-cards are 19:39:12 well, there's Advantageous Proclamation that shows the game rules can handle smaller decks, 60 cards in constructed (40 cards in limited, 100 cards in some formats) is just the default minimum 19:40:02 -!- rg_ has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 19:40:03 however, making a deck of 40 Blacker Lotuses, destroying them in the first game against an easy opponent, and then winning with a 20 card deck would be too easy, so the rules should stop that 19:40:25 which is why I'd say you have to replace them with basic lands before starting the next game 19:40:52 Contract from Below is TG. 19:41:05 We should play with ante. 19:41:42 nopw 19:41:46 we should play without ante 19:47:33 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:51:43 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:55:52 https://github.com/birkenfeld/rick 19:57:48 You can play with ante if you want to, returning the cards to whoever you borrowed them from after a match. If one player borrowed a deck from his opponent, then all cards you must give back to opponent afterward anyways. 19:58:13 But before that you can compare the cards you start with, with the cards you end with, to make up a score 20:00:55 It is a new kind of way to play with ante, even in Limited formats. You can also make it game/set/match so that card are sometimes return in the middle of a match too but not always 20:06:14 But if I had made up the rules I would want them to be more mathematically elegant 20:06:41 York's university challenge team are VERY good 20:07:26 b_jonas: It sounds like you're not pro-ante. 20:08:08 shachaf: I'm not. It's not a good mechanic, and the cards aren't good either. They're like old bad cards that make the game worse, sort of like Divine Intervention. 20:08:20 shachaf, are you advocating upping the ante 20:08:31 Ante simply isn't a good idea in M:tG. 20:08:41 I really just wanted to say it because it sounded like "pro-anti". 20:09:04 shachaf: sorry, English puns don't always work on me, I have partial resistance. 20:09:13 I don't know enough English to appreciate them. 20:10:00 It's not perfect resistance, some of them do work quite well, such as the "bore" pun in http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1227.html 20:12:12 What cards should I put in my Bearer of the Heavens deck? 20:12:59 Island 20:13:06 Swamp 20:13:14 Mountain 20:13:16 Those cards 20:13:19 Only those cards 20:13:20 I'm not sure Island really fits. 20:13:20 shachaf: Reknit, Boar Umbra, etc 20:13:21 You can make it work 20:13:37 shachaf: regenerate a few key permanents that let you kill the opponent when he's defenseless 20:13:41 (those were the only cards I could remember) 20:13:41 b_jonas: Regenerate? Why? 20:13:44 or make them indestructible, but that's harder 20:13:47 Oh, I see. 20:13:57 Other permanents, not the Bearer. 20:14:05 I had things like Boros Charm in my old deck. 20:14:19 shachaf: Bearer of the Heavens destroys most permanents, including lands, that can leave the opponent pretty defenseless if you prepare well 20:14:20 (Which was made with Innistrad-and-onward cards.) 20:14:27 Right, that's the idea. 20:14:52 Gift of Immortality has an interesting interaction with BotH. 20:15:11 also, you may need some defense against cards like Unmake or Swords to Plowshares that exile Bearer of Heavens 20:15:14 I also had Avacyn. 20:15:19 And a bunch of reanimation cards. 20:15:36 Right, I guess there are a lot more of those in Modern. 20:15:39 shachaf: plus I guess you need some tricks to accelerate into Bearer of the Heavens and some extra spells quickly enough 20:15:54 My old deck had a bunch of reanimation. 20:16:10 Including Rescue from the Underworld, which works pretty well if you can get enough creatures for it. 20:16:28 shachaf: oh, you'll reanimate it rather than pay for it? that can work too 20:16:49 it might work even better if you can put it to play for just one turn... can that be done these days? 20:16:56 shachaf: what format and what kind of environment is this? 20:17:19 I think Modern on MTGO. 20:17:33 hehe, "I think" 20:17:34 The environment is all sorts of strange decks, probably not too competitive in general. 20:17:51 you should probably decide the format first, before you build the deck 20:17:58 The format is Modern. 20:19:12 But I don't really know much about pre-Innistrad Modern. 20:19:54 hmm... what's in the ban list of Modern? is Darksteel Citadel allowed? 20:20:09 b_jonas: IIRC darksteel citadel is allowed but not the other artifact lands 20:20:24 oh, Boros Charm? that sounds like a really good idea 20:21:18 there's apparently Terra Eternal 20:21:20 no wait 20:21:25 that won't work, it helps the opponent 20:21:26 sorry 20:21:31 I also had Tymaret, the Murder King. 20:21:33 stick to Boros Charm and maybe some regeneration 20:21:44 And some other things, I don't remember. 20:21:57 There's a reanimation card with Flashback. 20:22:04 shachaf: so what are the plans for getting Bearer of Heavens into play? how quickly do you want to do that? 20:22:17 In my previous deck it took a while. 20:22:21 But maybe Modern has more options. 20:24:25 I wonder if there's some red card that puts it onto the battlefield then destroys it 20:24:30 or sacrifices it 20:24:43 Oh, I remember a card like that. 20:24:54 Was it in the most recent set? 20:25:14 Or maybe I'm confusing it with the keyword ability that some cards have. 20:25:36 Evoke 20:26:03 wait, could you use some card that lets you sacrifice your permanents as paying for dealing damage to the opponent? 20:26:28 though it might be hard to do with your lands 20:26:30 Sure, assuming you can get it out onto the battlefield. 20:26:43 Oh, I misunderstood. 20:27:08 that would both let you fling your goats before you get everything destroyed, and sacrifice Bearer itself 20:27:17 I think a card like that would be TG. 20:27:31 If it let you turn lands into damage. 20:27:38 shachaf: sure, it can't be one card 20:27:45 animating all lands might not be worth 20:27:50 Oh, you mean a bunch of flings, or something. 20:28:02 but you could still fling your creatures, assuming you have some other creatures that are useful 20:28:07 I kind of want to put Gift of Immortality in just because it keeps destroying all permanents every turn. 20:28:18 It would be great. 20:28:36 shachaf: Goblin Bombardment 20:28:46 shachaf: do you get to attack during all this? 20:28:48 there's some others if you're willing to pay mana 20:29:03 b_jonas: Hmm, interesting. 20:29:07 ais523: During all what? 20:29:11 also, the reanimation card with flashback is Dread Return, which is banned in Modern and one of the most important cards in top-tier decks in both Legacy and Vintage 20:29:15 ais523: yes, _after_ the bearer dies, with some other creature you regenerate 20:29:18 shachaf: the recursive Gift of Immortality loop 20:29:26 I mean, attacking with the Bearer itself 20:29:38 ais523: Yes, it enters the battlefield before the beginning of your turn. 20:30:04 ais523: No, not Dread Return. 20:30:10 ais523: Unburial Rites 20:30:20 you could also use Otherworldly Journey rather than regenerating creatures 20:30:47 but yeah, Boros Charm sounds like the best 20:31:21 shachaf: well if the opponent can't ever play anything that costs more than one mana, can't keep permanents around for a turn, and you get to attack every turn 20:31:32 that sounds pretty much like a win to me unless they're running Erase or something similarly specific 20:31:48 Right. 20:32:45 oh, Dread Return sounds nice 20:33:19 no, probably not Dread Return 20:33:20 I dunno 20:36:50 b_jonas: There are also creatures like Obzedat, Ghost Council. 20:36:52 shachaf: try to search for existing deck lists with Bearer for ideas 20:37:02 I suppose I can do that. 20:37:36 hmm, it seems most cards that put something into play for one turn are careful and _exile_ it 20:37:56 some aren't, but they're harder to use, eg. Imprompty Raid 20:39:15 Oh, the card I was thinking of was Flameshadow Conjuring. 20:39:17 Which exiles. 20:39:30 And it makes a copy anyway. 20:39:35 Completely different. 20:39:45 shachaf: it costs tons of mana, but there's Kiki-Jiki which sacrifices a copy of your Bearer 20:40:06 you can save the original by eg. regenerating it or journeying it, and then you attack with it 20:40:19 regenerating is better because you get to attack immediately 20:40:38 but of course the regenerated one will just get Doom Bladed 20:40:42 b_jonas: Kiki-Jiki also sacrifices it at end of turn, which means my opponent gets an extra turn before their permanents are destroyed. 20:41:19 shachaf: um what? no? 20:41:30 shachaf: they get an extra turn _after_ their permanents are destroyed, but before you get to attack 20:41:41 which is much less of a problem 20:41:47 Kiki-Jiki sacrifices the copy of Bearer of the Heavens in the end step. 20:41:59 So its ability only destroys everything in the next end step. 20:42:08 hmm 20:42:09 ah 20:42:12 I see 20:42:13 I'm designing a protocol called Extensible Internet Chat (XIC) :) 20:42:20 shachaf: you're right 20:43:00 IRC works fine, but OK you can try other stuff too 20:44:33 It's an open protocol that, in my imagination, would replace IRC as a better chat. Probably won't, but I'm allowed to dream :P 20:44:44 Dreaming isn't allowed on IRC. 20:44:59 It's designed to introduce the IRC interface to the newer generation 20:45:15 It's like IRC, but less complicated and allowing File Transfers and such 20:45:39 # Appears as TIKI 20:46:07 there's Through the Breach which is like Kiki-Jiki 20:46:09 Oh, and it's utf8 20:46:18 Because the world has non-english speakers in it 20:46:33 Hmm, Through the Breach is interesting. 20:46:38 hppavilion[1]: IRC already allows file transfers 20:46:48 although in practice, getting a DCC through a firewall can be hard 20:46:49 Really!? 20:46:51 shachaf: it has the same problems as Kiki-Jiki. expensive, works in enx of turn. 20:46:53 Since when!? 20:47:02 But it has the same disadvantage as -- yes. 20:47:10 Oh 20:47:14 hppavilion[1]: Since about 1991. 20:47:20 Oh 20:47:31 b_jonas: It's expensive but it doesn't require a Bearer to be on the battlefield already. 20:47:34 Although you can argue on whether DCC is part of IRC. 20:47:38 Well MY file transfers don't need anything more than the ability to encode a file to Base64 20:47:51 Because THAT'S a good idea :P 20:47:53 b_jonas: And CMC 5 isn't so bad. It's the same as an average reanimation spell. 20:48:05 ais523: meh, just tunnel the file through a channel instead of a separate socket. it's ugly because you have to base-253 encode it and split it to lines and add headers before each line so it grows a lot, but still. 20:48:26 See? 20:48:29 shachaf: yeah, but now you need a way to put it to the battlefield, though that isn't too hard 20:48:34 Ugly piece of crap 20:48:43 b_jonas: ? 20:48:49 This protocol will, hopefully, be good 20:48:50 IRC is simple and powerful enough as it is, I think. Most other protocols (such as XMPP) and so on tend to be very complicated 20:48:56 b_jonas: Through the Breach puts it from your hand onto the battlefield. 20:49:03 s/battlefield/graveyard/ 20:49:04 sorry 20:49:05 And MUCH easier to implement 20:49:23 Also I don't see any good reason why to base64 if you're *not* trying to put something through a legacy thing not designed for it. 20:49:43 Me? 20:49:48 b_jonas: My old strategy was putting it in the graveyeard and reanimating it. 20:49:56 Probably a newline problem when transmitting text files 20:50:02 I played Faithless Looting and cards like that. 20:50:07 shachaf: is that something that can work in Modern? 20:50:13 Probably too slow. 20:50:22 Through the Breach is probably no worse than that strategy, though. 20:50:56 An XDCC bot with an esolang-related file archive is something we're sorely missing, but it's maybe a decare or two too late for that. 20:51:10 Decare is like a decade, but it cares more. 20:51:13 shachaf: isn't this something that you _don't_ want to reanimate in turn 3, because then you won't have enough resources to keep stuff from getting destroyed, and your opponent will be able to recover better than you? 20:51:27 I dunno 20:51:32 I'm not sure how this should work 20:51:38 Another reason I'm making this protocol: IRC has entered a declien 20:51:49 It lost 60% of users from 2003 to 2014 20:51:57 s/declien/decline 20:52:03 b_jonas: Reanimating it isn't so bad. You still have a 10/10 that your opponent doesn't want to destroy. 20:52:21 But maybe in Modern there's a lot more exile. 20:52:30 Myst III: Exile 20:52:31 shachaf: maybe 20:52:48 but he'll just chump block it forever 20:53:03 Sure, your opponent can bus. 20:53:29 But it's not a terrible position, and as soon as you draw Boros Charm or Gift of Immortality or something you can use it. 20:53:56 Gift of Immortality? 20:54:09 had you mentioned that earlier and I missed it? 20:54:48 oh, that's nice 20:55:06 It's great. You get the Bearer back every turn. 20:57:58 ok, really stupid question, what if you regenerate Barren Glory? nope, too many combo pieces, too much mana, too easy to disrupt. 20:58:20 b_jonas: not to mention that you need a convoluted mess to regenerate an enchantment in the first place 20:58:38 would be easier to make it indestructable; I think there's a single card that does that 20:58:40 ais523: convoluted mess? isn't there like Reknit? let me check that 20:58:51 Reknit 20:58:55 "Target player chooses any number not greater than X, loses that much life, draws that many cards, and then exiles the top Y cards of his/her library where Y is X minus the chosen number." 20:58:56 ooh 20:59:13 (with overload) 20:59:23 Oh, that's an interesting strategy. 20:59:26 zzo38: without overload, that's broken at XB and strictly worse than an existing card at XBB 20:59:33 But seems tricky to pull off. 21:00:01 ais523: I know that it is broken at XB but I was intending to be XBB, and with an overload ability too 21:00:09 shachaf: I don't think it works. it needs like three cards and a ton of mana, and disrupted very easily by any destroyer or countere. at that point you should have won ages ago. 21:00:12 at XBB overload 0 it still isn't very good, because you'd basically never overload it unless the opponent was low on life 21:00:18 shachaf: also like two colors or three 21:00:35 ok, two colors doesn't really matter if you have nine mana to spend a turn 21:00:36 but still 21:00:37 b_jonas: It's two colors but so is Boros Charm or Gift of Immortality. 21:00:38 in which case you'd still prefer the existing XBB card because it would outright kill them 21:00:47 so yes, that's broken at XB (target yourself), and just pointless at XBB overload 0 21:00:53 I think overload 0 is too low, it should be at least X 21:00:55 maybe if it was XBB overload draw a card ;-) 21:01:14 zzo38: overloading the card actually makes it worse, though 21:01:16 what's this with overload? 21:01:25 overload on what? 21:01:28 because exiling the top X cards of your library is not a very major effect unless X is very large 21:01:47 Overload draw a card? Maybe... 21:01:53 and your opponent gets some amount of "lose 1 life and draw a card" effects of their choice, which is normally a good ability 21:02:10 and which can't be used to kill them because they can choose not to take them 21:02:11 Yes, unless X is very large 21:02:38 I think that card would be better as "each player draws X cards and loses X life" for XB 21:02:44 much simpler, too 21:02:57 Yes, that is another kind of card 21:02:58 zzo38: if X is very large, though, you don't bother overloading it, you just aim it at your opponent 21:03:12 the existing XBB card outright kills them in that situation 21:03:16 ais523: Yes I know 21:05:03 right, just Fireball them for 20 21:05:52 Fireball is red card though 21:06:13 And if they have a lot of life points, it isn't working 21:06:29 you want blue or black? 21:06:30 Even then, depending on the cube you are playing, some cards might not even be available 21:06:49 Damnable Pact 21:06:52 b_jonas: Clearly which card you choose depend on blue or black. 21:07:04 do we have an oracle text and rules quoting bot on this channel? 21:07:08 (Or, red, green, white) 21:07:14 Not on this channel, I think 21:07:26 hmm 21:07:54 where does HackEgo listen other than on this channel? 21:08:05 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:08:25 You can still send private messages although I don't know if there are any other channels that it does. 21:08:39 it listens to private messages? that changes EVERYTHING 21:08:55 great! 21:09:13 Any writes to filesystem made by private messages are still logged though, but as far as I know reads aren't logged. 21:09:26 zzo38: it's no problem is messages are logged 21:10:00 I could upload a compressed oracle text database through private message in a few hours I think 21:10:08 or can it download straight from web? 21:11:48 I don't know. But even the existing database they use some non-ASCII characters, and still includes reminder text, so for those reasons it isn't as good as it should be (actually there are some other problems with the text too) 21:12:38 zzo38: what's the problem with non-ascii characters? 21:12:57 I have more problem with flip cards and split cards and double-faced cards which they keep messing up inconsistently 21:13:46 though my main problem is that I still haven't made my scripts work with the new new Gatherer, so my only source of up to date Oracle text is from Yawgatog's, which is actually quite consistent and fixes all the flip cards somehow 21:14:12 I should fix it but I'm lazy 21:14:19 the new new Gatherer is just very stupid 21:14:50 b_jonas: yawgatog maintains one 21:14:59 do some of you download the full oracle text database from a source independent of yawgatog? 21:15:04 coppro: yes, and that's my only source right now 21:15:31 coppro: before they created the new new Gatherer, I could use the new gatherer to download every card in a single page, and then parse it 21:15:50 I'm not sure if the new new gatherer allows that, but even if it does, I have to rewrite my scripts because they changed the format 21:16:10 I don't shy away from downloading hundreds of pages, I do that all the time, but I'm not interested enough about M:tG to do it these days 21:16:12 Yes, but even Yawgatog's has reminder text and stuff. I would prefer the format: Always {} for symbols, ~ when the card name refers to "this card", and only ASCII characters. 21:16:34 I also found a JSON version, which has the same problems. 21:16:37 -!- nycs has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:17:01 zzo38: why "~" for "this card"? doesn't it already use {} for mana symbols and tap symbols, and [] for loyalty? 21:17:22 zzo38: reminder text is a part of the Oracle text 21:17:22 But, if you do use the JSON version you can use a SQLite extension that I made up for reading JSON files 21:17:35 I don't recall if they fixed flip cards, but I think they haven't 21:17:36 coppro: Yes I know it is, but my opinion it shouldn't be 21:17:44 ASCII is not correct, because the card names do not use exclusively ASCII 21:18:12 Yes, but you can translate the card names into ASCII in a standardized format 21:18:19 yes, but you shouldn't need to 21:18:25 get out of the 20th century 21:19:27 You should use ASCII when possible. 21:19:58 no 21:20:02 you should use UTF-8 when possible 21:20:27 coppro: exactly. Scéance; Æther Figment; Ærathi Berserker (probably the craziest one); Looter il-Kor (or is it Looter il-Kor?); Kongming, “Sleeping Dragon”; “Ach! Hans, Run!” 21:20:49 the craziest is when flavor text contains unitalicized parts 21:20:57 as emphasis 21:21:11 No I believe you are wrong, you should use ASCII when possible, also converting the italics to normal texts. 21:21:33 the italics I don't mind 21:21:33 If ASCII won't do then you can use UTF-8 and other formats, but you should try to use ASCII 21:21:36 zzo38: what would be the ascii for all of those card names above? 21:21:39 but I don't know why you would prefer ascii 21:21:45 especially when ascii is demonstrably unfit for the task 21:22:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:22:17 Replace the ligature with "AE", the accented with no accents, quotation marks straight, and italic letters straightened. For foreign card names you should not use ASCII of course. 21:23:56 the fun part of en- and il- is that they're printed in italic in text boxes everywhere and in title bars of modern frame cards, but as upright in title bars of old frames 21:24:22 so it's possible that it's not actually a significant part of the card name 21:25:29 besides en- and il-, what other cards get italicized text in their names? 21:26:15 I think maybe a few Un-cards might, you should check 21:26:16 I believe there is at least one 21:26:18 ^ 21:26:18 I guess the italicization of en- and il- is probably a design detail you should ignore, like the black and white mana symbols in Mirrodin text boxes 21:26:37 as in, the italic has no rules significance, and you don't have to reproduce the italic when naming a card 21:27:08 The deck format I use requires that all card names are written in ASCII format, too 21:27:50 (They also must use the English names, even if you have foreign cards in your deck) 21:28:10 also, the Gatherer doesn't show italic in the card name or card text in the Oracle text, which shows it probably doesn't matter 21:28:47 there's also Erase (Not the Urza's Legacy One) 21:28:48 zzo38: how do you asciify Ærathi Berserker? with or without the Æ? 21:29:08 coppro: heh, yeah 21:29:11 By replacing it with "AE" 21:29:12 which has the parenthetical typset smaller in the title box, but not the text box, and the name /Urza's Legacy/ italicized in the text box, but not the title box 21:29:29 (Although it is also case-insensitive, at least for unquoted text) 21:29:49 zzo38: wait, with AE? not with Ae or nothing? 21:29:49 wtf 21:29:53 why would you use AE 21:29:55 that's ugly 21:29:59 "Ae" is also valid, as it is case-insensitive. 21:30:35 (And actually "Ae" is what I have used, but it doesn't matter as it is defined to be case-insensitive) 21:30:47 ah, ok 21:30:54 Then there's Our Market Research 21:31:00 b_jonas: please 21:31:04 full names! 21:31:27 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:31:50 coppro: yeah... the full name does fit in an irc line 21:31:52 Our Market Research Shows That Players Like Really Long Card Names So We Made this Card to Have the Absolute Longest Card Name Ever Elemental 21:37:21 although there's at least one card with rules text so long it doesn't fit in a single irc line 21:37:23 -!- ais523 has quit. 21:37:33 so a bot would have to know how to split to multiple lines 21:37:43 yes, datatog does ;) 21:38:15 Dance of the Dead and Master of the Hunt have quite long texts 21:39:00 AFAIK Ice Cauldron still holds the record 21:39:22 coppro: probably depends on how you turn to character sequences 21:39:29 it's shorter in my version 21:39:47 Are you counting Oracle text or printed text? 21:39:49 oracle 21:39:55 I think that making a RVTP server and RVTP client would help. (The server does not have to be SQLite, although it might be easier if it is. If the client is SQLite that probably also makes it easier) 21:39:59 Ice Cauldron's oracle text is too long to be printed 21:40:01 shachaf: oracle, but in my old dump that's a bit reformatted 21:40:22 coppro: Dance of the Dead's too probably 21:40:24 I think Illusionary Mask's Oracle text is longer? 21:41:22 (But SQLite does not yet support virtual table modules that can read LIMIT and OFFSET clauses) 21:41:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Page closed). 21:41:49 shachaf: my dump favors Dance of the Dead unfairly because I turn newlines to three characters 21:42:10 Dance of the Dead has three 21:42:17 also it's old, I think Illu Mask has changed since 21:42:27 It's probably fair as far as space utilization on the card goes. 21:42:29 how you treat mana symbols and such might also change stuff 21:43:12 Ice Cauldron may have changed since too 21:43:15 I dunno 21:44:39 Camouflage (which has remainder text) and Riftmarked Knight and Tombstone Stairwell are also somewhat long 21:44:45 but again, old dump 21:45:21 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:48:51 -!- rg_ has joined. 21:50:39 http://ideone.com/ZqytvO 21:55:23 -!- boily has joined. 21:57:57 -!- rg_ has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 21:58:05 -!- x10A94 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:03:57 !bfjoust neuralnet (>(+)*20>(-)*6)*5(>)*6([(+)*0[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(++++++-)*4[-]]>)*5([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1 22:04:11 ​Score for tswett_neuralnet: 6.6 22:04:20 So... how good is that? 22:04:58 Aha, here it is. http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 22:05:01 It's crap. 22:05:52 tswellott! 22:05:59 wow. haven't seen jousting in a loooong time. 22:07:09 helloily 22:07:15 So, growth2 and preparation both win the great majority of the time. There is no program that beats both. 22:07:45 Oh, what an interesting NN URL. 22:07:45 http://www.unicode: esolangs.org/list 22:08:00 b_jhellonas! 22:09:09 This one's pretty interesting too: http://www./nick.com/8018/19/100/00621 22:11:29 -!- |f`-`|f has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:11:58 I highly suspect that those aren't quite valid URLs... 22:11:59 http://ideone.com/ZqytvO <-- not that i particularly suspect you, but if you want people to visit your links, it's a good idea to speak enough to prove you're not a spammer 22:12:09 -!- |f`-`|f has joined. 22:12:21 Oops 22:12:33 Aelloarnus! 22:12:34 I just thought it was weird and wanted to share it 22:12:41 hellørjan! 22:12:53 ok i didn't notice you had spoken before i joined. 22:12:59 Hullo boily 22:13:01 Aearnus: isn't that the top link from /r/lolphp today? 22:13:15 From today? Not sure, I was looking through all time 22:13:32 Also I used to hang around here under a different name, CrazyM4n 22:14:49 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:CrazyM4n 22:15:02 looks like we never weren't there at the same time and/or spacetime combination. 22:15:44 Gregor has such an incredibly stable idleness 22:15:53 [wiki] [[User:CrazyM4n]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43679&oldid=41432 * CrazyM4n * (+71) 22:18:53 Aearnus: aha, welcome back 22:19:21 Thanks! :p 22:19:30 there's a small formatting bug in the codu logs: the nickname field isn't _quite_ wide enough if someone maxes it out 22:19:56 which doesn't happen that often, but happened today 22:20:33 and then it line wraps 22:21:11 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:22:54 Yeah, when's the last time Gregor spoke? 22:23:21 a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away 22:23:50 the 17 days whois gives _might_ be correct, or not. 22:25:34 he changed nick on the 17th of july 22:26:11 the next day i nagged him about codu's clock, which has since been fixed 22:26:32 but no actual speaking was involved. 22:26:49 cod u nag him again twh 22:27:07 shellochaf. please be aware that that was a horrible pun. 22:27:38 halexandre 22:27:53 that pun was definitely fishy 22:28:16 boihly 22:28:26 * boily mapoles shachaf and then oerjan on the rebound 22:29:41 Is a mapole a maypole? 22:29:53 * oerjan counts this as a great success 22:29:59 `? mapole 22:30:00 A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. 22:30:19 it may be 22:30:47 And then if you keep looking at the definitions, you end up getting thrown for a loop. 22:30:59 the spork and corkscrew would certainly be appropriate for festivities 22:31:31 If I ever open up a café or something, I'm very tempted to call it “The Spork & Corkscrew”. 22:32:16 Really, you wouldn't call it the Sporkscrew? 22:32:18 will it have a whistling moose figure 22:32:23 i find that difficult to believe hth 22:32:57 sporkscrews are hard to hold properly tdnh 22:35:17 `` ls wisdom/*acallit | xargs -1 \? 22:35:19 xargs: invalid option -- '1' \ Usage: xargs [-0prtx] [--interactive] [--null] [-d|--delimiter=delim] \ [-E eof-str] [-e[eof-str]] [--eof[=eof-str]] \ [-L max-lines] [-l[max-lines]] [--max-lines[=max-lines]] \ [-I replace-str] [-i[replace-str]] [--replace[=replace-str]] \ [-n max-args] [--max-args=max-args] \ [-s 22:35:25 hmph 22:35:32 `` ls wisdom/*acallit | xargs -n 1 \? 22:35:33 wisdom/thwackamacallit? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ wisdom/whatchamacallit? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:35:39 darn 22:36:18 `` cat wisdom/*acallit 22:36:19 A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole. \ A whatchamacallit is like a thwackamacallit, but less painful. 22:36:42 (probably going to have to call the place with a French name: «La cuillourchette et le tire-bouchon») 22:36:44 verycursive 22:37:07 uh, anybody know how to call a spork in French? 22:40:01 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuill%C3%A8re-fourchette hth 22:41:20 boring :/ 22:41:38 I prefer cuillourchette :D 22:43:39 from wikipedia's list, it appears that romance languages have portmanteauphobia 22:44:13 PORTMANTONS TOUTES LES CHOSES! 22:46:35 otoh i cannot recall a norwegian word for it, by analogy with swedish/icelandic it should be skjaffel 22:46:58 * boily is scared by the "skj" 22:47:13 don't let it skjewer you 22:47:46 * boily thwackamacalls shachaf 22:48:17 boily: it's pronounced approximately like english sh, although possibly more retroflex 22:48:58 it might depend a lot on dialect 22:49:48 as i mentioned earlier, wikipedia cannot agree with itself on which sh-like sound it is 22:50:01 that still haven't been resolved yet? 22:50:18 well i didn't bring it up 22:50:28 i'm not enough of a phonologist to make a decision 22:50:34 boily: oerjan doesn't like it when you bring up wikipedia issues to him hth 22:50:52 also it's on 3 different articles 22:50:54 I'll unbring the issue then. 22:51:39 i suspect it may differ between the dialects that have r-dental retroflex merging and those that have uvular r with no merging 22:52:06 also known as "uvul r" 22:52:09 time for me to saturate what passes as my brains with doubtful things and a good wash of ethylic liquefaction. 22:52:14 shachaf: ... 22:52:26 (the former may or may not consistently pronounce "rs" as the same sound. i cannot quite convince myself whether or not my own dialect does.) 22:52:26 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *THWACK* AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! 22:52:47 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FUMIGATED CHICKEN). 22:52:59 mostly due to the difficulty of finding any minimal pairs between sj and rs 22:53:48 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)). 22:53:53 -!- rg_ has joined. 22:54:03 (the former only happen at the beginning of syllables, except when used as a forced spelling on loanwords. the latter only happens at the end of syllables.) 22:54:08 *+s 22:55:21 oerjan: can there be a minimal pair involving two adjacent words/ 22:55:23 hm wait the first part isn't quite true 22:55:56 like, foo sjbar versus foors bar 22:56:14 Perl 6 keeps putting me in mind of lenses 22:57:07 b_jonas: that was what i was trying to think of. Mosjøen vs. Morsjøen, except it's not really rs in the latter 22:57:50 i think that might be as close as you get. and i cannot convince myself whether i really pronounce them differently. 22:58:27 oerjan: there's also no convincing minimal pair between "t" and "ty" in Hungarian. the best I have is "Nagyatád" vs "nagyatyád" but I'm not sure the latter is a word 22:58:44 ah 22:59:40 that's basically because "ty" is very rare 23:02:18 i recall reading that h vs. ng also have no minimal pairs, possibly goes for both english and norwegian 23:02:48 oerjan: um, in what language? 23:03:03 is that because ng goes only before a g, but h never goes before a g? 23:03:05 um i just mentioned two hth 23:03:23 it's because ng never starts a syllable and h always does 23:03:43 probably there's some compound exception there too 23:04:39 oh, that's how "h" works in English? ok 23:05:00 hm well when actually pronounced 23:05:18 I've no idea when "h" is actually pronounced in English. it seems random. 23:05:24 true 23:05:32 i guess it goes better for norwegian, then 23:05:44 but I'm quite sure "h" doesn't have to start a syllable in Hungarian (though it often does) 23:05:53 -!- aretecode has quit (Quit: Toodaloo). 23:06:51 that said, a minimal pair between h and ng might be difficult still because you'd have to find a word with "hk" or "hg" which is somewhat rare 23:07:00 we don't use it to form digraphs, either 23:07:19 and it's especially rare if you don't want it in a boundary of a compound where it would be very hard to put an ng sound 23:07:23 so it might be impossible 23:08:28 um, "h" is used to form digraphs in Hungarian, namely "ch" and "kh" exclusively in borrowings (mostly from ancient Greek or German) and "th" (in old traditional fancy spelling of noble family names) 23:09:06 i suppose we have that old fancy th too. (viz. Thue) 23:09:33 even though "ch" and "kh" appear only in borrowings but is permanent in the sense that it is kept forever no matter how hungarianized the borrowing becomes, so they're effectively real digraphs 23:09:47 in normalized spelling, ch/kh -> k, anyway 23:10:02 in norwegian 23:10:32 kiropraktor 23:11:10 "th" is not used productively, but kept in well-known old names including "Kossuth" and "Batthyány" 23:14:44 also, "h" is supposedly silent in some words where it appears at the end of the syllable, but nobody knows which words they are, basically it's silent when it'd be hard to pronounce (or by tradition or something) but that differs for everyone 23:17:43 bahtthyány 23:17:55 I think the random silent "h" is a rule made up by teachers to screw with students who have to learn it 23:18:05 fahncy 23:19:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:21:05 Do we Anglophones have a lot of silent Hs? 23:22:13 tswett: supposedly yes, but at _start_ of words, where Hungarian doesn't have any 23:22:15 it's nothing compared to gaelic 23:22:32 and it seems totally random 23:22:38 I think "honor" has a silent "h" 23:22:53 Yeah. 23:23:00 And then there's the word "herb". 23:23:02 oerjan: I think English has crazier fahncy noble family names 23:23:02 it's because it's mostly in words inherited from french 23:23:11 I want to make a Tree-based language 23:23:16 Sort of like a Stack-based language 23:23:20 BUT WITH TREES 23:24:01 English has something for silent consonants at start of words, I never understood it 23:24:26 who knows why 23:24:30 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Silent_initial_consonants has a partial list with written consonant clusters where the first letter is silent 23:24:51 but _those_ are at least consistent in that it either always happens for a letter pair or never 23:25:03 the initial "h" is apparently random, or at least I don't know the logi 23:25:23 the logic is that it's silent if it was borrowed from french that way hth 23:25:44 ah yes, the most famous English one is I think Featherstonehaugh 23:25:44 which might depend on _when_ it was borrowed, i guess. 23:25:59 oerjan: yes, and French has random logic for initial "h" too 23:26:42 i think that's because french lost it, regained it, then lost it again, or something? 23:27:12 there's also "ch", which in French is pronounced as /S/ most of the time, but sometimes as /k/ when it's borrowed from greek or something. 23:27:40 English does that worse, because it has both "th" and "ch" which are sometimes pronounced as /t/ or /k/ when borrowed from greek 23:28:08 and "chthonic" is the absolute most riddiculous combination of all that 23:28:25 gin and chthonic 23:29:22 -!- qlkzy has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:29:29 oerjan: no, it's pronounced with a /T/ or /kT/, not with a /t/ 23:29:53 wut 23:29:57 I think "th" is pronounced as a /t/ when it's borrowed from latin or french, not when it's borrowed from greek, or something 23:30:16 whereas "ch" is pronounced as /k/ when it's borrowed from greek? 23:30:17 gah 23:30:18 I don't really know 23:30:26 I think you just have to learn the individual words 23:30:56 i know that greek changed its pronunciation from /t/ to /T/ 23:31:03 so it might depend on time again 23:31:21 (technically, _aspirated_ /t/) 23:31:37 which is of course the usual for germanic languages 23:32:29 and not for hungarian afair 23:33:25 (germanic sound change was /t/ -> /t^h/ and /t^h/ -> /T/) 23:33:45 or wait 23:34:22 good eving 23:35:44 /d/ -> /t^h/ and /t/ -> /T/, i mean 23:35:56 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm%27s_law 23:36:31 th in english is pronounced as a voiceless interdental fricative, except in a very limited set of words where it is voiced 23:36:42 norwegian since turned the /T/ back into /t^h/ 23:37:28 some relevant words with the rarer pronunciation are: Thomas, echo, chameleon, chaos, character, chemistry, choir, cholera, chronic/chronicle/chronology/chronometer 23:37:46 "the", "this", "their", "then", "there", "that" are all voiced 23:37:51 or sometimes, if it had been voiced, /d/ or //, iirc 23:38:17 -!- qlkzy has joined. 23:38:59 b_jonas: i don't have any trouble with the ch ones, but i was pretty old until i fully realized the th exceptions even existed 23:39:13 this is fascinating 23:39:26 oren: other, too 23:39:37 whether 23:39:42 hither and dither 23:40:21 southern, northern, but not in south or north 23:40:22 oerjan: you probably pronounce "chronicles" with "ik" rather than "ike" 23:40:44 shachaf: wut 23:40:46 isn;t it ik? 23:40:49 that's certainly how i pronounced it until i had to learn the english pronunciations of the books of the bible 23:41:26 shachaf: argh wiktionary doesn't have the pronunciation of that 23:41:52 shachaf: I think that most english speakers say kron ik lls 23:42:06 where ll is a sylabic L 23:42:13 i used to be among those english speakers 23:43:06 etymylocially it should be kron eek lls 23:43:24 from latin 23:44:13 oren: that's not very convincing, you have to consider the great vowel shift 23:44:21 if you are doing actual etymology 23:44:46 well my oxford english dictionary has a short i 23:44:57 for "chronicle" 23:45:03 maybe that's how they pronounce it in oxford 23:45:16 * oerjan notes that google translate uses short i in its pronunciation 23:45:35 https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=define:chronicle hth 23:45:35 hello 23:46:13 that reminds me I need to add IPA to my font 23:46:15 oerjan: what do you think is the probability that a random TM is universal as states and/or symbols goes to infinity? 23:46:29 shachaf: did you know that define: doesn't work if you're using google with norwegian settings tdnh 23:46:51 https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define:chronicle hth 23:47:08 thx 23:47:35 shachaf: well that's definitely not the "ike" sound 23:47:35 I have partially fixed my gopher service now; not all files are available yet, but the server works 23:47:41 that helped xtremely? 23:47:49 oerjan: yes, i was pulling your leg 23:48:10 what are the most common exceptions for "th"? besides Thomas, there's apparently Thames, Esther, Mathias, Mathilda, plus a few words where the th is apparently simply silent because Englishman are lazy to pronounce consonant clusters 23:48:12 shachaf: pulling my leg is scow tdnh 23:48:29 where Mathilda is some obsolate spelling of Matilda 23:48:38 oerjan: I went through the books of the bible and kept laughing at how ridiculous the translations to English were. 23:48:55 I wouldn't be surprised if it was pronounced "chronicles" instead of "chronicles", I said. 23:49:10 And since then I've been pronouncing it that way. 23:49:21 bionicles 23:49:32 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:49:38 (Actually my last sentence is the only thing I said on this topic that wasn't completely true.) 23:52:48 only because you just hinted at implications rather than outright stating them, i guess 23:53:43 one might say that you were pulling your own leg 23:54:06 "I used to do drugs. I still do, but I used to, too." 23:54:35 I did stop myself from typing that last part. 23:55:04 oh okay. it's quote mitch hedberg hour. i approve. carry on. 23:56:19 b_jonas: thyme hth 23:56:23 I have a dictionary too it says with the short sound 23:57:13 (The dictionary I have on my shelf is Webster though) 23:57:59 quintopia: i don't really know him so i cannot quote any more. btw i'm not sure of that probability, and it might be different for states and symbols... 23:58:20 oerjan: ok 23:58:24 states and symbols? 23:58:25 `? thyme 23:58:26 Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano. 23:58:29 is it Chu space hour? 23:58:37 shachaf: see above 23:58:37 http://chu.stanford.edu/live/#7 23:58:50 Chu spaces are TG. 23:58:52 I thought it is IV hour 23:59:03 Does IV mean 4? 23:59:07 (Almost is V hour) 23:59:12 I would say that it's XVI hour. 23:59:19 shachaf: Yes, it is 23:59:27 Almost XVII hour. 23:59:45 oerjan: got no intuition on it? 23:59:48 You aren't supposed to use more than 12 hours with roman numbers