00:02:43 `unidecode Ʒ 00:02:44 ​[U+01B7 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EZH] 00:21:26 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 00:22:12 BF# 00:26:58 shachaf: is this about right http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32223859/whats-the-difference-between-a-lens-and-a-partial-lens/32238680#32238680 00:27:51 no, it's way too long 00:27:53 http://stackoverflow.com/a/32238680 is about right 00:28:31 I think "affine traversal" is the thing people usually mean by "partial lens". 00:28:54 yeah but they're not defined by lens 00:29:11 Oh, you talk about it later. 00:29:16 (evidence: lens does not depend on pointed) 00:29:34 What! lens doesn't depend on something? 00:29:40 oerjan: =P 00:29:42 strangely the opposite notion _is_ in lens (using Apply) 00:29:42 @tell izabera I'm not erik demaine, I'm Oren Watson 00:29:43 Consider it noted. 00:29:52 we don't bother with affine traversals as there aren't any extra combinators it gives us 00:29:56 just crippled ones of the ones we have 00:30:00 ah 00:30:10 oerjan: Anyway, seems to make sense. 00:30:18 edwardk: you could make that a comment if you like 00:30:22 "we don't provide Maybe in the standard library because we already have lists" 00:30:32 except then i'd really feel like i was fishing for rep 00:30:58 shachaf: heh 00:31:52 shachaf: nah, just we already have (^?) and it is powerful enough to work on any of them 00:32:41 Sure, but foo :: AffineTraversal ... is more informative than foo :: Traversal ... 00:33:16 You can make the same analogy with lists. 00:34:07 now generalize that to categories 00:34:15 i guess profunctor fits in there 00:34:17 find :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] 00:34:35 find = take 1 . filter 00:34:54 Er, find f = take 1 . filter f 00:35:16 oerjan: Pointed as a superclass of Applicative would be a bit of a scow, though. 00:35:26 oerjan: You'd need to add Default as a superclass of Monoid to really make it work. 00:35:55 (take 1 .) . filter 00:36:30 shachaf: there are a lot of things that are scow because haskell isn't good at typeclass defaulting 00:39:24 oerjan: Also I'm not logged in so you don't need to worry about fishing for rep hth 00:39:29 good, good 00:40:01 oerjan: Anyway, the lens laws don't break when you have a lens to Maybe. 00:40:04 Unless you break them, I guess. 00:40:08 But at is a great and valid lens. 00:40:33 shachaf: i mean they break if you try to use it for the "nth element of list" case 00:40:47 Ah. Sure. 00:40:50 So does a prism. 00:41:15 I guess those are the things you say. 00:41:26 >_> 00:42:45 Does Scala have a library called lenz? 00:45:55 I DUNNO 00:48:24 -!- quietello has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:11:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:12:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:20:51 data Expression = ExpressionApply TermId [Expression] 01:21:04 Yeah... that'll do it. 01:25:24 http://i.imgur.com/G932zYW.gif 01:25:37 that's how i'm imagining tswett right now 01:27:20 -!- tswett has changed nick to dipperswett. 01:27:50 ? 01:28:22 Dipper Swett is the name I'm using for Magic: the Gathering purposes. 01:34:00 `unidecode ミ 01:34:01 ​[U+30DF KATAKANA LETTER MI] 01:35:32 http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2015082617gm-0029-0000-11467df8&tw=2&ts=1 01:36:29 chelloppro! another outrageousnessity? 01:37:38 coppro: you are a disgusting person :P 01:39:09 oops, wrong channel 01:39:14 boily: yes, collecting yakumans for the wiki 01:39:32 boily: er, should i click 01:40:04 (hoily) 01:40:25 hm, mahjong 01:40:54 mahjong. definitely mahjong. and coppro is channeling eldritch powers in order to torture the tiles to his bidding. 01:41:02 * oerjan clicked and got no wiser, anyway 01:42:04 boily: no, that wasn't me 01:42:18 it wasn't you? 01:43:34 -!- variable has joined. 01:43:46 no 01:43:54 just a replay I found on the ykm page 01:44:09 the only yakuman I've gotten is one runofthemill suuankou 01:48:59 one day I'll manage to get the gates. those are one elusive yakuman. 01:50:10 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CUTICLE CHICKEN). 01:53:46 there was a junsei chuuren yesterday, and a regular one today 01:54:40 http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2015082512gm-0009-0000-206be279&tw=2&ts=1 is disgusting 02:19:43 -!- variable has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero). 02:30:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:40:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:43:29 -!- qwertyo has joined. 02:47:54 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:04:35 I have once gotten renhou, but that's all (it was on a computer game where that rule is always enabled in the scenario being played) 03:19:38 -!- Wright has joined. 03:25:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:26:01 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:53:05 zzo38: you should come to one of our mahjong clubs 03:53:46 Where? 03:54:25 What rule options/variants do you use? Do you have any automatic table? What time? Etc? 03:54:54 my club currently plays mondays in Waterloo, boily's is Sundays in montreal 03:55:00 (not every monday/sunday) 03:55:18 our rules are here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RNeXCKS6JZU5fvDHfCP7jW8c2629nC5zRJBN2iWvjhE/edit?usp=drive_web 03:55:38 I don't live there anyways and do not intend to travel there any time soon. 03:55:47 montreal's is http://riichi.ca/site/ 03:56:24 (I live at British Columbia) 03:57:15 ah 04:00:19 Finally using free Internet access 04:02:20 huh? 04:11:21 Internet access now costs me $0/month 04:13:37 now you can finally play prismata 04:15:30 Wow, that's incredible! Because I couldn't before 04:15:40 shachaf: It is rather dangerous sitting next to mulrich at dinner when you don't say "no" forcefully enough. 04:15:40 pikhq: whoa whoa whoa 04:16:01 Sorry, correction, mulrich and mattsie. 04:16:09 Spot of the sauzzle, governor? 04:16:14 Yes. 04:16:31 Also, can confirm, gmail SRE still uses scow. 04:17:21 scow? 04:17:39 A wide beamed sailing dinghy. 04:17:51 @wn scow 04:17:53 *** "scow" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 04:17:53 scow 04:17:53 n 1: any of various flat-bottomed boats with sloping ends 04:17:53 2: a barge carrying bulk materials in an open hold 04:18:07 that's the scow of definitions 04:18:27 It's pretty scow. 04:18:40 The margaritas were not scow, however. 04:18:55 Where was this dinner? 04:19:00 La Fiesta 04:19:21 La Fiesta is great. They have grandma sauce. 04:19:28 I know. 04:19:37 Was it involved in the aforementioned sauzzle? 04:19:49 Not especially. 04:19:53 I had chile colorado. 04:20:37 Though it's somewhat humorous having your boss be involved in aforementioned sauzzle. 04:22:49 It's kinda funny that of all the places to end up at Google, I ended up in apps SRE. 04:24:15 lol 04:24:22 (I don't know why I'm laughing( 04:24:24 *) 04:24:43 coppro: Just, everyone who's been there long enough knows shachaf. 04:24:51 ahh 04:24:55 why? 04:25:00 whoa whoa whoa 04:25:04 What are they saying about me? 04:25:21 Positive things? 04:25:25 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:25:31 Today fizzie dug up a list of go/ links mentioning me. 04:25:33 what did shachaf to? 04:25:40 coppro: shachaf used to work with 'em is all. 04:25:42 ahh 04:25:51 that's a good reason 04:26:00 say hi to gavin for me 04:26:08 (gavin doesn't work in your department, building, or possibly company) 04:27:05 shachaf, you worked with Go? 04:27:21 Not at Google. 04:27:25 I work with it now. 04:29:02 I started learning Go. 04:29:20 Are you involved with [redacted]? 04:29:20 I think I like Rust 04:29:40 [redacted]? 04:29:58 A Go project used for -- deployments? 04:30:08 Or rollout automation or something. 04:30:27 *Ah*, that. 04:30:44 I've done some CLs on stuff with it. 04:30:47 It's actually pretty neat. 04:31:20 Neater than the thing it replaces? 04:34:24 -!- Jafet has set topic: The channel where [REDACTED] | Sir Fungellot does not fnord. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/. 04:36:32 I don't know what it replaced. 04:39:43 Will Go ever have generics or a sufficient replacement that doesn't lose static typing? 04:39:45 I don't know either. 04:39:55 Sgeo: Fuck if I know. 04:39:56 Do you still have a certain push and rollback system? 04:40:20 I don't know, I'm just a simple SRE. 04:41:37 shachaf: when did you work there? 04:41:54 2013-2014 04:42:27 ah ok 04:44:09 How about a build web UI thing which is very fast? 04:44:54 you could move to pm you know 04:45:04 and actually say words :P 04:45:22 Welcome to Google, the place where words 04:46:06 People at Google most communicate using funny pictures with a few words on them. 04:46:24 mostly 04:46:45 It's true. 04:46:57 I'm pretty sure that's the official bug report tool now. 04:47:50 I know, I've seen them 04:48:20 I went to TGIF once, and a thing happened, and when I went back to my desk, a coworker was providing an accurate retelling of the story, entirely from pictures. 04:49:36 https://gist.github.com/izabera/c1c664d542f8ef4f383c it's 6 am and i wrote this 04:50:59 That is not exceptions. 04:51:10 kinda 04:52:30 pikhq: Has jamming come up? 04:52:50 I think so but I don't recall for sure. 04:53:35 Are some things too good? 04:54:46 You're asking six-margaritas pikhq. 04:55:34 I feel like this would be better in an unlogged channel. 04:55:55 :P 04:56:44 HEY GOOGLE, I'M LEAKING PROPRIETARY INFORMATION ABOUT THE NEW [REDACTED] [REDACTED] FOR [REDACTED]! 04:57:09 I worked at google prior to you two 04:57:12 and have no idea what you're talking about 04:57:14 so... 04:57:34 If it makes you feel better, *I* don't know what shachaf's referring to. 04:57:46 I'm not talking about the Google things. 04:57:48 oh 04:58:10 pikhq: If it makes you feel better, you aren't the most sauzzled individual here. 04:58:38 By "here" I mean "among the people at La Fiesta". 04:58:48 Oh, I know. 04:58:52 I sat next to mulrich. 04:59:07 Or do you mean you're at La Fiesta right now? 04:59:33 I mean that someone is sending sauzzled messages, is all. 04:59:39 Lol. 04:59:51 Are they humorous? 05:02:59 Apparently I came up. 05:03:03 Yep. 05:03:18 As did Noggles, though I don't recall too well how. 05:07:07 You know how Wikipedia has "Introduction to..." articles? 05:08:13 Maybe we should create a few of those on Esolangs 05:09:07 Anyone? 05:10:53 FIne 05:10:55 I'll do it myself 05:11:10 Even though I'm ridiculously underqualified 05:13:52 I think maybe it might be better not to do it at all. 05:14:01 [wiki] [[Introduction to Esolang Design]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43923 * Hppavilion1 * (+359) Created Page 05:14:29 Just articles for the benefit of the community 05:14:54 The benefit of whom? 05:15:04 Esolangers 05:15:13 pikhq: I'm told that you chetted about me. 05:15:20 A little, yes. 05:15:23 I'm thinking that if we slowly pool knowledge on what makes a good Esolang, we'll eventually get more gems like Befunge and Unlambda 05:15:26 An event reminded me of you. 05:15:31 whoa whoa whoa 05:15:32 What event? 05:15:33 (Disclaimer: I do not understand unlambda) 05:15:35 I want the details. 05:15:37 I recall not. 05:15:47 I don't even own a suit. 05:15:56 Something to do with drinking and you getting drunk without drinking. 05:16:02 And scow. 05:16:04 Drunk or sauzzled? 05:16:14 More sauzzled. 05:16:22 By the way, it's spelled "Naugles". 05:16:28 Oic 05:16:35 "au" is very popular for some reason. 05:17:05 http://www.ocmexfood.com/images/naugles.jpg 05:17:10 Anywho, I'm going to go collapse in a bed. 05:17:15 whoa whoa whoa 05:17:16 Oyasumi. 05:17:20 Give me the details of the chets. 05:17:59 Guys, how would you describe a Truly Brilliant Esolang 05:18:03 ? 05:19:29 I don't know? 05:20:01 Perhaps it does something novel and unique? 05:20:10 -!- qwertyo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:21:01 opinions probably vary but i like esolangs that either (a) introduce a way of programming that's totally dissimilar to other existing languages, and (b) is at least reasonably powerful, but not trivially so 05:21:10 If it does, then yes I suppose it may be 05:21:22 and preferably both! 05:21:34 Although yes opinions can vary, and they can even vary despite opinions, so is good you can have many kind 05:23:47 I'm writing an article on Esolang design. 05:23:51 I'm not very qualified xD 05:28:18 [wiki] [[Introduction to Esolang Design]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43924&oldid=43923 * Hppavilion1 * (+1418) Extended the article 05:30:44 I think we need to design an Interrogative Language 05:42:06 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:42:57 What does Braintrust count as? 05:55:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:55:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:04:02 [wiki] [[€]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43925&oldid=43457 * Oerjan * (+80) fmt, section/link case 06:21:45 i find calamari's claim of having fixed his site slightly dubious tdnh 06:30:28 [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43926&oldid=43911 * Oerjan * (-282) /* Hodor */ It's not a real Hello world, and it doesn't have a page. 06:34:39 [wiki] [[Jackass]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43927&oldid=43675 * Oerjan * (+3) link, typo 06:37:59 [wiki] [[Talk:Wire-crossing problem]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43928&oldid=43478 * Oerjan * (+51) unsigned 06:40:19 [wiki] [[Useless]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43929&oldid=43480 * Oerjan * (+26) /* External resources */ describe link more 06:40:28 What does "Interrogative Language" mean? 06:42:58 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Passalambida <-- this is spam but wikis are really bad so i can't delete or flag it hth? 06:43:01 Can you put my Robotfindskitten implementation on the list with the rest of them? (Mainly I did it as an example of a program for the VM) 06:43:41 zzo38: I have no clue what an interrogative Language is, that's what we have to make up 06:43:43 You can blank the page, and you may be able to add a template or category to flag it 06:43:59 hppavilion[1]: O, OK, once we can learn what it is (by making it up), then it can be done. 06:44:12 yes, i was wondering if there's a template that marks pages for deletion 06:44:26 I don't know if esolang wiki has any such template 06:45:13 Another idea: 06:45:32 Make a weird mishmash of Lambda Calculus, Combinatorics, and Formal Logic 06:45:50 (I made a Minesweeper implementation for the same VM, too; also Munching Squares) 06:46:14 hppavilion[1]: Ah, OK, if you can figure out how, but also look to see if there are things close to it already on there, in some kind of ways. 06:47:02 -!- x10A94 has joined. 06:47:20 [wiki] [[O]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43930&oldid=43571 * Oerjan * (+16) links, section case 06:48:17 And, if you do not understand Unlambda, then you should learn. 06:48:25 I definitely should 06:50:32 [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Passalambida]]": Spam: Well, mauris said it so it has to be true (others may just call it CRAP) 06:52:01 to make an interrogative language, we must first answer the question "what is an interrogative language" hth 06:52:02 https://esolangs.org/wiki/ThisIsNotARealLanguage <-- this i can't tell if it's CRAP or a beautiful piece of modern performance art... 06:53:06 Neither; it is a joke, but still is not quite written good enough (therefore, it might be consider as a stub) 06:54:52 mauris: welcome to the world of Maxsteele2. 06:55:12 see also: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mugh_brains 06:55:46 yeah, all of their languages are of questionable quality?? 06:56:07 we're not big on quality control 06:57:21 i've noticed before. that's probably good! ~embrace the crap~ 06:57:31 questionable quality 06:59:18 i do, however, have a slowly lapsing habit of looking through everything in Recent Changes. recently i've had to edit the url by hand because the link options don't go more than 30 days back. 06:59:34 (now up to July 14!) 07:00:24 oerjan: what's with the olist delay 07:00:47 shachaf: well ending the world needs to be done with care, naturally 07:01:35 * oerjan now wonders what an accusative language would look like. but not too deeply. 07:02:14 an accusative language? 07:03:27 I don't know 07:03:32 ashl: how dare you even mention the concept! 07:04:38 I suppose "Gentzen" esolang has somewhat to do with formal logic; there may be others too but which seem to be less so as far as I can see (I may be wrong though) 07:04:51 example: Clearly this program is too badly written to print "Hello, World!" 07:05:36 (you achieve things through sufficient shaming) 07:06:05 also, i'm procrastinating food again -> 07:06:23 so an accusatory language 07:06:32 What's an accusative... thing? Again? 07:09:23 i don't really know 07:11:36 mmm, Almost Fresh Bread 07:12:52 hppavilion[1]: the case normally used for direct objects in nominative-accusative languages hth 07:13:09 Ah? 07:13:14 (e.g. latin, greek, german, russian) 07:13:18 I also wanted to invent a variant of Gentzen esolang that is using linear logic (possibly, called "Girard"), but I do not quite know how, even though I can know what rules are used with linear logic. 07:13:33 I don't know much about foriegn languages or linguistics 07:14:00 also hungarian, while finnish has some weird "3 different ways of putting case on objects" thing 07:15:30 and ergative languages have a different common system 07:15:40 oerjan: oh, accusative is just the word "et" in hebrew? 07:15:53 but how can a language be accusative 07:16:10 oh, "et" is only for definite nouns 07:16:17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nota_accusativi 07:16:35 shachaf: hm not sure if hebrew has case, i think arabic does 07:17:15 there are of course many languages that don't use cases at all, or only relics 07:17:26 hebrew doesn't even have uppercase and lowercase 07:17:29 so caseless 07:17:42 e.g. he vs. him is nominative vs. accusative, but english only has it for pronouns. 07:17:56 (as does norwegian.) 07:19:01 argh 07:19:03 good morning 07:21:08 or do you mean 'nominative-accusative language' by 'accusative language' 07:22:33 ashl: um i was making a pun on "accuse" and the mention of "interrogative language". i take it you're new here? 07:22:41 yes :P 07:22:46 I have recently had problems to connect to EFnet IRC servers; is there EFnet proxy that can be use to avoid a problem like that? 07:23:05 when in doubt, assume pun. right shachaf? 07:23:17 i missed the thing about interrogative languages 07:23:39 that would be confusing 07:23:44 yes 07:23:47 That used to be true, but these days there's no feedback. 07:23:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:24:00 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:24:07 i also had ergative-absolutive alignment on my mind for some reason 07:25:21 shachaf: wat 07:25:38 all i'm saying is, people used to be rewarded for their puns 07:25:40 or punished 07:25:44 but now, nothing 07:26:05 * oerjan drops the Holy Anvil on shachaf 07:26:14 i'm afraid i don't know how to draw it 07:26:26 your heart's not in it 07:26:34 ` also hungarian, while finnish has some weird "3 different ways of putting case on objects" thing' -- well, Hungarian also has like three or four ways to put a case onto an object, I think 07:26:34 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found 07:26:46 b_jonas: a direct object? 07:27:00 "et" is used for direct objects, I think. 07:27:07 oerjan: no, cases in general 07:27:11 um 07:27:16 to any noun phrases 07:27:26 i'm pretty sure -t is the accusative ending in hungarian 07:27:34 Now I'm confused about what this word does. 07:27:45 with appropriate harmonic vowel inserted 07:27:48 What are some other languages that only have a definite article? 07:27:54 Or alternatively only have an indefinite article. 07:27:59 shachaf: icelandic 07:28:30 whoa whoa whoa 07:28:34 i don't know if there are any that only have indefinite 07:29:03 And it even attaches the definite article to the word, like Hebrew. 07:29:30 the methods are: (1) suffix the noun (for common cases), (2) add a preposition before it (for some uncommon cases), (3) add a preposition AND a case suffix (very rare), and (4) for personal pronouns in some cases, add a possessive suffix to a base word made of what would normally be a preposition or suffix. 07:29:46 For objects, only (1) and (4) come up. 07:30:20 ` What are some other languages that only have a definite article?' -- espernato 07:30:21 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found 07:30:58 escowranto 07:32:03 * oerjan remembers rajta- 07:33:12 also, does "engem" fit any of those 07:34:45 what's a rajta- 07:35:21 ashl: a hungarian prefix meaning roughly "on", but which is only used with pronoun endings 07:35:28 (well, that i've learn of) 07:36:01 the _normal_ way of saying "on" is with the -en/on suffix on a noun 07:36:24 *learned 07:38:17 so that's a case where those are particularly different 07:39:09 "in", meanwhile, is benn- vs. -ben/ban iirc, so the same system but with similar morphemes 07:39:48 i see 07:39:56 i don't know any highly caseful languages 07:41:47 i am mildly curious about finnish and hungarian but it doesn't seem like it would be easy to sample them 07:42:48 there are plenty of finns on irc, at least 07:43:31 correct 07:43:37 olen suomalainen 07:44:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:45:54 " i don't know if there are any that only have indefinite" -- http://wals.info/chapter/37 says there are some 07:47:19 oerjan: http://wals.info/feature/37A#2/25.5/148.4 for the list 07:49:32 ooh i've been wanting such a map 07:49:48 clearly articles are more widespread than i thought 07:51:01 huh cantonese and japanese? 07:51:49 since when does japanese have an indefinite article 07:51:53 oerjan: you don't have to always trust wals. it does have some errors. 07:52:00 persian, turkish 07:52:19 b_jonas: um that makes it rather hard for me to judge :P 07:53:16 oerjan: in particular, http://blog.wals.info/datapoint-37a-wals_code_jpn/#comment has a comment by a third party that Japanese does not have an indefinite article 07:53:18 and thai. some rather big languages in that list. 07:55:18 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 07:56:22 no comments for the others i mentioned 08:04:19 "Languages with an indefinite article but no definite article are common in an area in Asia stretching from Turkey to India." 08:04:40 i guess turkish and persian at least are genuine, then 08:08:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Z). 08:13:18 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:15:19 oren: um, how do you know? just because there's no comment doesn't mean anything. 08:20:27 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 08:21:51 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:21:53 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 08:33:16 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:34:10 Øren Watsen 08:45:58 b_jonas: just because there is a comment doesn't mean anything, either 08:50:51 i've investigated the turkish claim slightly and according to wikipedia and some shady web tutorials it seems to check out! "works for me" 08:53:48 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:54:42 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 08:55:36 nice blog entry: http://jacquesmattheij.com/aol-20 "We're heading Straight for AOL 2.0" 08:56:59 Does anyone know of any roguelike with co-operative multiplayer? 08:57:02 Like a D&D party? 08:59:07 Taneb: try to ask on #nethack or some other channel connected more directly to roguelikes 08:59:40 what does mangband do with multiplayer? 08:59:51 It feels cheating to ask in #nethack when I don't particularly enjoy Nethack 09:00:20 innother cases: write one 09:00:34 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:01:01 i do think it's pretty hard to do this at least on a turn based system 09:01:21 I am not so sure 09:01:28 It could be unfun to have to wait for everyone 09:01:42 But if you're all in physical proximity, or at least can talk to each other 09:01:43 It could work 09:02:12 yeah 09:03:11 myname: indeed, the problem is that roguelikes have very fast paced turns and no real-life timeouts 09:04:08 you could make independent turns for each player, but what do you do with npcs? 09:04:22 maybe you'd need a keyboard simlar to those of old telegraph machines, where it could physically lock keys so that you can't press them and you can feel that with your finger, and make it lock most keys when it's not your turn 09:04:42 -!- shikhin has joined. 09:04:57 Taneb: is there a roguelike that you do enjoy? 09:05:06 maybe ask them instead of #nethack then 09:05:33 i do think cataclysm would be fun to multiplay 09:06:14 b_jonas, I quite like Brogue (although I am not good at it) and Pokemon Mystery Dungeon 09:06:23 Although I only really played the first PMDs 09:07:36 the cataclysm setting just asks for multiplayer 09:13:30 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:20:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:23:14 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:27:22 -!- qlkzy has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 09:37:31 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:39:58 `coins 09:40:02 ​baldcoin combcoin colfuccoin unsuitcoin rumcoin outcoin invilcoin pavitacoin nhohnercoin itfaonaillccoin codifyingcoin jottoncoin voenighedcoin minecoin neboolcoin otticoin colacoin magecoin booncoin rfpentcoin 09:40:29 Magecoin 09:40:32 "itfaonaillcoin"? no way 09:40:34 minecoin 09:40:59 hmm, colacoin sounds tasty 09:41:04 `coins 09:41:06 ​ephoracoin tanzcoin vococoin parnasscoin stufecoin muiratefcoin ptercoin syphintcoin urateflincoin falcoin aaterictopadythconveyongwortedcoin rincoin camoicoin sarztcoin dancoin evucoin unshakespringinworcoin carfourcoin memfucicoin bullfcoin 09:41:20 nice! 09:41:29 I like falcoin 09:41:37 aaterictopadythconveyongwortedcoin is nice also 09:41:51 Why did I type that rather than copy/pasting it? 09:42:05 unshakespringinworcoin, nice 09:42:25 but carfourcoin seems like misspelt. 09:42:42 tanzcoin 09:43:37 I like parnasscoin 09:44:06 "memfucicoin" -- hmm, "memfuci" sounds like the name of an esolang 09:46:02 aaterictopadythconveyongwort also sounds like an esolang 09:46:33 realfastnorashairsalonthreesheardisasterdownloadcoin 09:46:54 exactly 09:48:01 there's actually a "memfuck", maybe "memfuci" is a typo for it 09:48:24 of course there is memfuck 09:53:09 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:56:08 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:04:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:15:41 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:17:55 -!- yorick has joined. 10:24:44 -!- boily has joined. 10:55:50 `` cat bin/coins # <- not really a surprise they sound like esolangs 10:55:50 words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords 10:56:23 `coins --finnish 10 10:56:24 ​upoliyhtymiksencoin päältäcoin säännecoin ymmecoin seuraastaviltannecoin turmemmaksennecoin varsoviksicoin varpastasicoin silleencoin hehkeikkaavalscoin 10:56:42 Local currencies for the global age. 10:57:57 "päältä", "säänne" and "silleen" in the above are all real Finnish words. 10:58:18 "varpastasi" is close -- "varpaastasi" would be. 11:05:53 fizziello. what do they mean? 11:06:00 `coins --french 10 11:06:04 ​fratorcoin érullinécoin demmecoin checoin raatricumcoin thescoin caloréemencoin vesignediicoin appecoin leptocoin 11:06:23 `coins --french 10 11:06:24 ​ingtcoin dénacoin avimentecoin témorptcoin aisiocoin mandervettacoin gélaiscoin dencoin quegoloncoin déprepuricoin 11:06:34 `coins --german 10 11:06:35 ​seldhügelechtcoin vernernowcoin übergängecoin eligungcoin mehrlinshineascoin ausecoin erzmuscoin stoffiziehungcoin schraetncoin honencoin 11:06:52 nothing even remotely French in those :( 11:07:06 one correct german one 11:07:12 `coins --french 10 11:07:14 ​paluscoin polygrosocoin hypochcoin hohecoin pothiérocoin uteuressamcoin oelliercutacoin offrantcoin confircoin sujacoin 11:07:39 ah! «offrant» is good. 11:07:52 mynamello. don't ask me which one is correct; it's all German to me. 11:09:43 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:10:03 `words --japanese 1 11:10:04 Unknown option: japanese 11:10:13 `words --spanish 1 11:10:15 inte 11:10:23 `coins --spanish 10 11:10:24 ​enparaclcoin litescoin roncoin cnbrinamilcoin dianacoin efeccuriéncoin puntancoin ansilengolcoin strólocoin mediososcoin 11:19:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CLOTHESLINE CHICKEN). 11:22:18 @tell boily päältä 'from on top' (ablative case of päällä 'on top of something', or 'on' as in "the radio is on") 11:22:18 Consider it noted. 11:22:23 @tell boily säänne 'your (pl.) weather' (second-person plural possessive of sää 'weather') 11:22:23 Consider it noted. 11:22:29 @tell boily silleen -- a colloquialism that's rather hard to translate without resorting to just listing a bunch of example uses. 11:22:29 Consider it noted. 11:22:37 @tell boily varpaastasi 'from your toe' (elative case of the second-person singular possessive of varvas 'toe') 11:22:38 Consider it noted. 11:57:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:42:40 -!- Frooxius has joined. 12:47:24 mroing 12:48:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:48:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 12:48:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:54:04 -!- quietello has joined. 13:01:33 Argh, I keep for getting this. Hat is a special character interpreted by the windows shell, so it must be quoted. 13:04:01 quoting on Windows cmd is utterly bizarre 13:04:15 I nkow, sadly 13:06:26 sometimes you just have to ('"' . join('" "', map s/(\x5c*("|\z))/\Q$1/gr, @command) . '"') 13:06:50 sometimes you have to do the same but prepend a second '"' at the beginning 13:07:15 sometimes the arguments contain a percent sign or somethign and then youre' completely screwed because there's no way to quote a percent sign at all 13:07:33 and if the argument contain a newline, you're screwed too 13:08:33 The s/(\x5c*("|\z))/\Q$1/gr part is definitely serious though, that's the _only_ valid way to quote backspaces and double quotes inside a double-quoted string in the shell. 13:09:36 you must not double backspaces anywhere else than what that regex says. 13:11:35 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:19:46 -!- perrier_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:24:21 \x5c is a backslash, right? why not just write \\? 13:24:41 wait, no, slightly too low to be a backlash? or, hmm 13:24:43 `unidecode \ 13:24:44 ​[U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS] 13:24:47 is a backslash 13:36:05 -!- ais523 has quit. 13:41:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:55:56 hmm. "SOLIDUS" 13:56:16 `unidecode / 13:56:17 ​[U+002F SOLIDUS] 13:56:25 oh well at least it's consistent 14:07:24 -!- Froox has joined. 14:08:06 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:44:45 `coins --spanish 15 14:44:47 ​pegarlacoin pñntecoin plancoin roncoin gianocoin bonadolacoin dwelladocoin obesscoin sepaiscoin hocoin hidcoin brostcoin pensiscoin creecoin empeñcoin 14:46:09 Gesundheit. 14:47:46 How does it come up with those? 14:48:51 "Pegarla" is a real Spanish word ("to hit her/it (feminine)"). "Pñnte" doesn't come close to being valid. 14:49:08 dipperswett: I think it just uses statistics about the language, and then tries to produce words that are statistically the same 14:49:23 to do with letter frequency and letter pair frequency, possibly even triplets 14:49:28 then it puts "coin" on the end 14:49:41 * dipperswett nods. 14:49:56 I can't imagine "pñ" is a common digraph in Spanish at all. 14:50:16 I would expect that "ñn" occurs in no words whatsoever. 14:50:16 presumably it's has a nonzero occurrence rate, though 14:50:26 imagine if the letters are in two separate syllables 14:50:48 and it's not like "ñn" is unpronounceable 14:51:02 ñ almost always occurs between two vowels, I think. 14:52:24 http://www.listapalabras.com/en/palabras-con.php lists no words containing pñ or ñn. 14:53:50 I have just finished a game of Minesweeper but I almost won, but not quite because at the end only two more cells remained and I picked the wrong one by mistake. But I am slow at it and it took 1378 seconds (this implementation imposes a time limit of 10000 seconds). Using the scoring system I made up I scored 572 points (out of 575). 14:56:26 -!- TieSoul has joined. 14:57:34 Screenshot is at http://zzo38computer.org/img_18/mines.png 15:01:23 Quoting on Windows cmd.exe is more strange than in UNIX and can cause problems, as noted above, yes. But I think if you have a percentage sign you can use %% to do isn't it? I thought it it is how it is work anyways 15:01:48 I don't like the variants of Minesweeper that sometimes require you to guess. 15:01:58 all of them do 15:02:23 izabera: Not the one in Sergeant T. Atham's puzzle collection. 15:02:43 izabera: It can, if you untick a flag, but by default it only makes puzzles that are deducable from the initial click. 15:03:07 that's a cheaty version 15:03:20 It also allows undo, so... 15:03:33 (Although it does keep track of a death count that isn't decreased by undo.) 15:03:50 The standard ones do anyways, but I have read about "Lucksweeper" in which any guess which you can not possibly have any idea it is wrong, if you step on such a cell, it will move a bomb if that cell contains a bomb so that it won't be explosive. 15:04:11 Personally, I don't consider the "avoid guesses" part to be cheating. It's pure luck. 15:05:14 fizzie: If it does not reveal all of the bombs when you lose then that could be a kind of variant (but you don't need to implement undo, just mark the bomb there and increment the death counter, and then you can continue) 15:06:13 It does not reveal the mines on death. 15:07:06 And I guess it could "auto-undo" on death like that. I think it probably has undo/redo because that's a standard piece of user interface for the puzzles in the collection. 15:07:57 I wonder if there are any versions where you can die on the first square you open. That seems to be something that's pretty universally avoided. 15:08:32 minesweeper usually requires guesses 15:08:48 even if you don't count the initial move 15:09:02 fizzie: My own version you can die on the first square you open, because I have not made it to avoid that (although I could have done, but find it unnecessary) 15:09:08 In the sgtatham sweeper, you may still end up with mines that can't be deduced directly from the labels of the squares, if you can deduce it from the number of remaining mines. 15:09:35 I know that can be possible too 15:12:35 There is also the paper variant (also called "star map", although in the book I first saw it in it is called "minesweeper") 15:17:12 I have also seen a variant where it is possible for a cell to contain more than one bomb 15:18:26 coppro: sure, the second move often has to be a guess 15:19:57 In the simple minesweeper version I made for the very powerless Sharp EL-5120 calculator, you can die in first turn. 15:20:29 There's also no map shown, you just type coordinates and draw the map on paper; and the neigbours of revealed zero cells aren't automatically revealed, you have to do it by hadn. 15:21:31 lol 15:21:31 It's also easy to cheat, because the high-level programming language of that calculator makes it impossible to read input without allowing the user to reveal the value of any variable easily with three to five keystrokes. 15:22:25 (When prompted to input, press 2ndF, RCL, then the letter of the variable, and the value is shown. 15:22:28 ) 15:23:02 I guess technically that reveals only the first ten digits out of the twelve, so in theory the program could hide some information in the two guard digits, 15:23:05 what size was the grid? 15:23:10 So it clearly is not as powerful as Texas Instruments programmable calculators, where there are other ways to request input as well 15:23:36 but that would be very impractical due to the stupid inconsistent and slow arithmetic, too few variables, limited memory, etc. 15:24:46 ais523: um, iirc 8x8 or 8x16 or something. I'm not sure. I think it would be possible to do 16x16 but then I'd never finish a game with that interface. 15:25:00 I mean, possible to do 16x16 with some changes to the program. 15:26:35 ais523: I also made a maze game, with a 8x8 (iirc) square grid, toroidal I think, with horizontal and vertical walls between the squares. 15:27:27 The interface is such that the program prints the walls or non-walls immediately surrounding you, then inputs a direction to move out of the four, in a loop, and it detects win if you reach the goal cell. 15:27:43 No wait, not toroidal, only cylindrical, because that's the easiest to implement. 15:28:23 what kind of programming does it have? 15:28:42 I haven't really worked with Sharps much 15:28:55 In TI-92 there are many ways to request input, including: * Arguments to the program * Prompt for an expression on the I/O screen, store the result into a variable * Ask the user to select a point on the graph screen * Display a popup menu * Display a menu bar * Display a dialog box * Inside of a busy loop you can check which buttons are pushed (although there are no timing functions) 15:29:44 yeah, TI has generally pretty good input routines 15:29:48 Hoolootwo: a high-level language with powerful natural arithmetic syntax, but not much in regards to statements. you have 27 numerical variables you can use (plus a couple of extra with limitations), no array indexing. 15:29:56 and you can make your own with getkey and such 15:30:13 ah okay 15:30:23 Hoolootwo: the numbers are 12 decimal digits with exponent between -99 to 99, the arithmetic on them is quirky and slow. 15:30:55 that sounds really hard to actually use for anything useful 15:31:00 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:31:22 There's a 3 line text display, you can print only constant strings with newline after them with the character set, or the value of a variable with the name of the variable in the previous line, and both of these are very slow. 15:32:05 Control flow is goto, if-arithmetic-comparison-goto, gosub, return, and restart program, but there's a strict limit of 20 labels per program. 15:32:20 that's terrible 15:32:33 at least it's better than being keystroke-programmable 15:32:54 Assignments and control flow and such things are very fast, compared to even simple arithmetic, probably because it has a slow cpu (6502-based or z80-based or something) that doesn't do proper arithemtic. 15:33:46 The whole calculator has exactly 2k RAM, of which about 1K is for fixed purposes, very tightly all used up, and about 1K (I don't recall the exact number now) stores arbitrary programs. 15:34:27 well many of the TI-8x series are also z80, so that's not really a good excuse 15:34:33 In programs, all keywords and builtin functions and stuff are stored as a single byte (but displayed often as up to six character cells on screen), and each line has an overhead of exactly three bytes, with no other overhead. 15:34:41 but yeah, that's not a whole lot of mem 15:35:23 I guess the speed of the language has to do with how it's designed too I suppose. 15:35:58 As a result, the best way to store an array is a loop of a cyclical shift of variables, that is, you write a body like A=B;B=C;C=D;D=E;E=F;F=G;G=H;H=I;I=A (with each assignment in a new line), track the shift index, and repeat it enough time to get the index you want. 15:36:20 Most of my more complicated programs has a shift register of eight variables like that. 15:36:33 that's a good way to do it 15:36:55 Yes, it's good because it doesn't cost too many labels or too much program space, and executes relatively fast. 15:37:36 You can also use numbers as arrays of digits or bits, which is how I store rows in minesweeper or the maze, 15:38:15 but you have to be careful because the arithmetic is strange so it's easy to get incorrect results. In particular, if you subtract two numbers such that the first ten digits are equal, the result is zero, the last two digits are discarded. 15:38:19 yep, that's a pretty common trick on the TIs to get more out of each variable 15:39:05 There's some details you have to learn about how to write the programs shorter, because every character can matter. 15:40:23 You have to abuse precedence, especially because there's a somewhat rich set of arithmetic operations so you can write many things in multiple syntaxes; you can omit parenthesis at the beginning and end of expressions; omit 0 on the rhs of the assignment, or on any side of an equals comparison, but not in a less-than comparison for some reason. 15:40:39 But you know what the most wonderful part of this calculator is? 15:40:53 On TI-92 though you can have variable names as long as eight letters and you can have lists and matrices and strings 15:41:28 That its implementation seems very solid, with almost no bugs. I've experimented a lot with it, and have never managed to crash it or corrupt it or otherwise make it behave strangely, 15:41:43 except when the battery is low so it doesn't have enough power to think. 15:42:38 During all the years, I've found only about two insignificant bugs in it, two of them about some input being accepted and doing something useless when it should be rejected. 15:43:36 zzo38: right, the Sharp EL-5120 is from the early days when programmable calculators were rarer and primitive. I went to a VERY geeky high school class, and mine was only the third programmable calculator in it. 15:43:47 (The other two before it were higher-end models knowing more.) 15:44:23 I know that programmable calculators a few days after that are much more powerful, with hundreds of kilobytes of memory and the abilty to upload programs written in machine code and stuff. 15:44:50 -!- qwertyo has joined. 15:44:50 But at that time, we had to do those things on the personal computers, rather than programmable calculators or mobile phones. 15:46:51 Yes, the TI-92 has 64 kilobytes of memory, a graphical display, and powerful built-in programming language. In those it's like the popular calculators of its age, except that it has a qwerty keyboard. I've seen one live for a while. 15:48:07 The programm language is TI-92 is slow though, but there are things that can be done to make it faster (what I have done to speed up shuffling a deck of cards more resembles the "ORDER BY RANDOM" of SQL; due to the way the parsing works this turns out to be faster than the other way. 15:48:21 But I've met the similar non-qwerty TIs more. I've also seen HPs and Casios, but none of them have I delved so deeply as into that Sharp I own. 15:48:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:49:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:54:53 -!- Wright has joined. 15:55:04 -!- ais523 has quit. 15:55:12 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:04:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:06:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:19:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 16:31:01 TI-86 has 128K of memory, which is pretty huge. 16:31:06 64K of address space, though. 16:32:56 It has an "MMU", if you can call it that -- 0000..3fff and c000..ffff are fixed (RAM and ROM pages, respectively), but you can map individual RAM/ROM banks into the 4000..7fff and 8000..bfff blocks. 16:34:46 The "TI-Basic" language it supports is the same (or at least very similar) as in the '92, AIUI. 16:35:35 And real slow, partly because all variables are 10-byte BCD floats it deals with in software. 16:37:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:37:47 I believe it would do an increment-by-one loop using the generic softfloat addition, that has to muck around with exponents and all that. 16:39:02 (Good way to waste all those 6 MHz of raw power.) 16:39:14 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:39:21 -!- lleu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:41:34 -!- lleu has joined. 16:43:27 -!- llue has joined. 16:44:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 16:46:08 -!- lleu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:50:24 -!- Wright has joined. 16:56:10 -!- LewisMCYoutube has joined. 16:56:22 Hi. 16:56:55 hi 16:56:57 `welcome LewisMCYoutube 16:56:59 LewisMCYoutube: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 17:00:39 -!- LewisMCYoutube has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:01:03 LewisMCYoutube, we hardly knew ye 17:03:08 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:14:16 -!- bb010g has joined. 17:16:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:26:07 Determining whether or not a given Minesweeper grid is consistent sounds like the sort of thing that would be NP-complete. 17:28:16 dipperswett: it is, that's already been proven 17:49:29 [wiki] [[J--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43931&oldid=43513 * 216.138.225.130 * (+78) 18:01:11 What does consistent mean in this context? 18:01:29 Taneb: that there's some way to place mines on it such that all the observed numbers are accurate 18:05:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:09:54 -!- idris-bot has joined. 18:18:53 -!- mihow has joined. 18:23:24 -!- mauris has joined. 18:23:25 -!- mauris has quit (Changing host). 18:23:25 -!- mauris has joined. 18:29:11 I want to make a Future Tense Imperative Language 18:29:21 Most Imperative Languages are Present Tenses 18:29:23 *Tense 18:29:35 I guess eventhandlers are future tense 18:32:08
18:32:18 We have Functional languages based on Lambda Calculus, but not geometry 18:32:58 s/functional/declarative 18:33:04 ./i 18:38:38 Anyone? 18:38:40 oren? 18:42:41 [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43932 * Martin Büttner * (+9984) Created page with "'''Labyrinth''' is a two-dimensional programming language developed by [[User:MartinBüttner|Martin Büttner]]. The source code resembles a maze which is traversed by the inst..." 18:42:45 zzo38? 18:43:08 [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43933&oldid=43909 * Martin Büttner * (+16) /* L */ 18:44:04 [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43934&oldid=43932 * Hppavilion1 * (-16) Brought username inline with the standards of this wiki 18:44:32 labyrinth sounds promising 18:46:01 [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43935&oldid=43926 * Martin Büttner * (+126) 18:48:08 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:50:07 [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43936&oldid=43934 * Martin Büttner * (+1) fix user name 18:50:41 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:51:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:53:08 What would be a good name for a geometry-based declarative Esolang? 18:53:41 -!- mauris_ has joined. 18:53:41 -!- mauris_ has quit (Changing host). 18:53:41 -!- mauris_ has joined. 18:54:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:54:09 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 18:54:14 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 18:54:22 There's Boolean Algebra 18:54:41 But not Boolean Arithmetic, Boolean Geometry, or Boolean Calculus 18:54:44 Problem? 18:55:25 geometry based? 18:55:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:57:27 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:02:51 [wiki] [[User:Martin Büttner]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43937 * Martin Büttner * (+549) Created page with "I have so far created two esolangs: * [[Retina]], designed in 2015, a regex-based language, designed for use in code-[[Golf|golfing]]. * [[Labyrinth]], designed in 2015, a tw..." 19:03:16 [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43938&oldid=43936 * Martin Büttner * (+12) 19:04:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:05:58 [wiki] [[Retina]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43939&oldid=43797 * Martin Büttner * (-33) 19:08:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:08:18 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:08:54 [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43940&oldid=43938 * Martin Büttner * (+120) add link to related language Mice in a maze 19:09:51 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:16:05 -!- Typical_Username has joined. 19:16:10 hi hello 19:18:27 i got an idea of esolang, but i dont know if its created yet 19:18:35 could you please tell me if you know? 19:18:40 what is it? 19:19:05 so i saw discussion about "what is the simpliest progamming language" 19:19:14 some said C, other said BF 19:19:29 but i got idea of i guess really simpliest language possible 19:19:37 define simple 19:19:39 "simplest" is hard to define 19:19:55 we have languages with only one command 19:19:59 but some reasonable candidates include Iota, Bitwise Cyclic Tag, and the various 1L languages, depending on what your definition is 19:20:07 arguably MiniMAX, too 19:20:13 although I might be biased on that one 19:20:16 bct <3 19:20:22 fractran? 19:20:22 It would do whatever the source is 19:20:28 BF is definitely not the simplest 19:20:29 oh 19:20:36 because there are cut-down versions of it that are simpler and still TC 19:20:37 i mean it would do nothing whatever the source ist 19:20:46 coppro: ooh, fractran is another reasonable claim, I think 19:21:08 Typical_Username: oh, yes, if you don't care about TC or usable, there's a language that does nothing, more than one I think 19:21:12 Unnecessary is probably my favourite 19:21:26 you could also use 2014 for the purpose nowadays 19:21:41 still 2014 does something right 19:21:50 i mean it has some flesh 19:22:06 thanks for answer 19:25:38 ing my question 19:37:05 -!- qwertyo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:41:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:41:44 -!- ais523 has quit. 20:04:04 I still need a name 20:04:07 -!- x10A94 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:04:09 I'm just calling it Geom for now 20:09:07 -!- qwertyo has joined. 20:16:19 -!- jameseb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:17:07 -!- qwertyo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:18:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:18:21 -!- jameseb has joined. 20:21:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:29:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 20:29:17 is there any font in which the dot in ; is lower than - ? 20:30:36 That's like asking if there are any faces where the nose is higher than the eyes. 20:31:01 it's exactly what i'm asking 20:31:26 the actual question was: does this face ;-; render correctly in all fonts? 20:32:30 What is the proper way to render? In this "fixed" font, the top dot of the semicolon is higher than the line making up the minus sign 20:34:08 that is the proper way 20:34:34 it's a shame esolangs.org's featured language thingy isn't more active 20:35:06 I suggest to get rid of that feature 20:35:26 (But keep the page for historical study, with a note) 20:36:35 it's hard to distinguish interesting languages from non-interesting languages :P 20:37:04 Yes, and there are other problems too (including opinions, and other decisions about it) 20:37:34 mmm 20:38:14 maybe _someone_ thinks fuckfuck or maxsteele2's languages are interesting 20:45:28 what ais523 said made me think: 20:46:13 you could make an esolang where every program must satisfy some constraint of which the satisfiability is a (very difficult) open problem 20:46:39 but, for extra irony, say, functions as a NOP 20:47:06 *but every program 20:49:35 Do esoteric fonts exist? 20:51:08 -!- TieSoul has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:53:04 oren's? :P 20:53:50 ? 20:57:05 oren keeps talking about a font they're making 20:59:42 im new to this community 20:59:50 ok 20:59:58 thanks 20:59:59 me too 21:00:05 welcome 21:00:11 i meant i dont know who is oren 21:00:14 werrucomu 21:00:25 u2 21:01:34 i wanted a place lake esolang.org 21:01:52 to upload this font where dot in ; is lower than - 21:02:45 did you try imveryevil.org ? 21:03:02 oh 21:03:04 you 21:03:18 ;-; 21:04:13 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:04:49 do you have any ideas of interesting esoteric fonts? 21:05:01 not including "kill;-;" 21:05:42 http://evil.com/ 21:06:39 not even sure why i google these things 21:10:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:10:35 -!- Typical_Username has quit (Quit: Page closed). 21:11:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:12:03 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:12:13 izabera: what did you google? 21:12:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:14:29 -!- Froox has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:14:54 -!- Froox has joined. 21:20:32 I made up a new Dungeons&Dragons character for a campaign which is including some other players too, so that we can play that one when they are here and the other one when they aren't; however these two scenarios are in the same timeline/storyline so they can interfere with each other (perhaps some of the things that happen, bad people organization, etc are having to do with each other so it adds more to examine), although currently my two character 21:21:08 This new one is starting at character level 3, and we are starting with money and equipment unlike the other where we started with absolutely no possessions at all. 21:22:17 Do you know how to pronounce this character's name? 21:23:36 Yes it is much easier. (Actually I can kind of pronounce my other character's name too) 21:23:52 -!- aretecode has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:25:24 heh 21:25:52 zzo38: is it only the character made, or has he already had some roleplayed adventures as a PC? 21:26:49 Only the character is made up (including equipment, skills, etc) 21:27:01 The game is not in play quite yet. 21:27:24 I see 21:27:36 what role and race is it? 21:27:50 (If the other players do not create their characters in time, I will be playing the other game until they do and when they are available.) 21:28:31 "Do you know how to pronounce this character's name?" => http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=178 21:28:34 b_jonas: He is a anthropomorphic-bat generic-caster 21:29:13 "generic-caster"? 21:29:17 what does that mean?" 21:29:22 I think that one isn't about the character's name? They want to learn "I give up" 21:29:41 zzo38: yes 21:30:02 b_jonas: It is a class with more customization but less class features (and a few less spells per day) then normal casters, from the book of generic classes 21:30:16 but I imagine a quingi could also have a name in their native language that you can't pronounce without a second tongue 21:31:18 b_jonas: Yes that might be possible I guess 21:31:32 zzo38: what kind of "customization"? customizing what skills or spells the character learns, or customizing later, such as when preparing or casting spells or psionic abilities/ 21:32:21 oh, you mean like it's customizable during character creation and leveling how his spellcasting works in first place, 21:33:09 like some of how much prepared it is, which stat they uses for what checks, what types of spells they can learn and cast, etc? 21:34:07 More customization in skills and feats to be selected (as well as spells learnable), but don't have features such as familiar, turn undead, or other stuff like that, and have less spells per day than a sorcerer 21:34:27 I see 21:35:10 And where are they on the scale between wizard-like prepared casters versus sorcerer-like improvized casters, and is that fixed by this role? 21:35:37 This class requires spontaneous casting. 21:35:51 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symlink_race 21:35:57 Ok. 21:35:58 read the note 21:38:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:38:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:39:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 21:39:56 oren: um, how do you know? just because there's no comment doesn't mean anything. <-- because of the "Languages with an indefinite article but no definite article are common in an area in Asia stretching from Turkey to India." 21:40:49 assuming that was written by someone who actually knows. i guess it's possible they just deduced it from wrong data. 21:43:05 oerjan: ack 21:43:12 -!- aretecode has joined. 21:43:21 syn 21:43:56 oerjan: ok i guess i'll have to repeat my joke in here too 21:43:58 A generic-caster is proficient with one simple weapon of your choice; in my case a morningstar (although I would normally not fight with such things unless I would need to attack, but it may help sometimes). A generic-caster is not proficient with any armor or shield (but can become proficient by feats or multiclassing) 21:44:02 arkeet: What's green and has all colimits? 21:44:51 argh 21:44:59 shachaf: I don't know? 21:45:05 A semilettuce. 21:45:16 O, OK 21:45:30 * oerjan gives shachaf a small complimentary swat -----### 21:45:30 What's green, has all limits, and isn't vegetarian? 21:45:47 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:46:30 shachaf: spinach? 21:46:40 A meat-semilettuce. 21:46:47 hm semilattices don't necessarily have all colimits tdnh 21:47:03 oerjan: that's true 21:47:07 * oerjan gives shachaf a slightly harder swat -----### 21:47:08 i got the same pedantry in the other channel 21:47:43 also, i got confused because i remembered that either left or right adjoints have all limits resp. colimits, and i can never remember which is which 21:48:04 There was confusion about that in ##typetheory yesterday. 21:48:13 wait, that's preserve, not have 21:48:27 "Right adjoints preserve limits. Coproducts are limits." "Left adjoints preserve colimits. Products are colimits." 21:48:58 i can never remember which is which for products either 21:49:03 I'm designing a programming language "based on Geometry, some algebra, a bit of formal logic and boolean algebra, and just a /hint/ of set theory" 21:49:16 A) What should I name it 21:49:19 oerjan: half the sentences i quoted above are wrong hth 21:49:24 B) Should it be 2D, 3D, or what? 21:49:24 hppavilion[1]: Do you have some other details too? With that it can help also 21:49:37 I do not know the answer of your questions though, sorry 21:49:38 the only thing i remember is the free functors are left adjoints. mnemonic: liberty 21:49:43 *that 21:49:53 zzo38: I'm using Google Docs, so you probably won't want to 21:49:59 shachaf: darn 21:50:05 oerjan: i don't follow the mnemonic 21:50:15 geometry wars 21:50:37 shachaf: liberty = freedom, and has the same first letter as "left" hth 21:50:47 oerjan: i'm pretty sure universal properties were invented when someone left adjoint where a mathematician could find it 21:51:08 sorry, your complimentary swat quota is used up hth hht 21:51:12 darn script 21:56:09 The generic class also allows you to customize which base save is the high one 21:56:18 i've investigated the turkish claim slightly and according to wikipedia and some shady web tutorials it seems to check out! "works for me" <-- i've looked at wikipedia slightly and i'm not convinced 21:56:48 mauris_: ^ 21:57:02 * oerjan doesn't trust pings to work with nick variations 21:59:29 b_jonas: ooh, persian (partly) confirmed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_grammar#The_Definite_and_Indefinite_Articles 22:01:37 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:01:57 hm there's a better article on turkish too 22:02:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:02:56 ok looks confirmed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_grammar#Indefinite_adjectives 22:06:15 cantonese looks more dubious 22:06:58 thai refuted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_grammar#Articles 22:07:27 those were the main ones i recall 22:07:39 -!- mauris_ has changed nick to mauris. 22:11:03 Taneb: there's /r/roguelike hth 22:11:18 i keep seeing ais523 posting there 22:14:24 -!- augur has joined. 22:16:15 apparently cantonese uses 一 ("one") in a way that looks like an indefinite article 22:16:56 So does English. 22:16:57 and i mean "an/en/een/un/une/ein" also mean "one" if you look a couple thousand years back so 22:17:16 also norwegian hth 22:17:46 (what about finnish twh?) 22:18:18 you may spell them slightly different as numerals, but they're really the same word. en/ei/et vs. én/ei/ett 22:18:49 i'm pretty sure finnish is generally not considered to have articles 22:19:20 oerjan: in that case what do they put in their newspapers 22:19:22 checkmate 22:19:24 haha 22:20:04 -!- FireFly has joined. 22:21:48 FireFly: HireFly 22:22:32 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 22:22:41 What! 22:22:50 I thought your swatter was out of charges. 22:23:06 no, _you're_ out of quota hth 22:23:24 shachaf: they put advertisments, plus a crossword, comic strip, and photo of skimpily dressed female. 22:26:13 i'm skeptical on the last point, but i don't read finnish newspapers 22:26:56 in norway, a normal newspaper doing that for its own sake would be unheard of 22:27:40 (now if it was an advertisement, they could away with a lot.) 22:27:44 *get away 22:28:50 also if it's a comic. 22:29:35 i suppose you could also get away with it in a crossword, if the solution was vacation themed 22:30:07 so basically, norwegian newspaper can have all kind of skimpily dressed females, as long as they have another excuse for it. 22:30:11 *+s 22:30:20 * oerjan needs a grammar refill 22:30:40 `` bison > oerjan 22:30:47 bison: missing operand after `bison' \ Try `bison --help' for more information. 22:33:16 skimpily dressed comic female hth http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/pondus/?1440540000&d=-1 22:35:05 Hi shachaf 22:35:17 oerjan: what'd I do this time 22:35:46 FireFly: you joined the channel right after a swatting session hth 22:35:55 tdmh 22:36:42 oerjan is very swat-happy 22:40:18 -!- tortu has joined. 22:41:27 `bienvenido tortu 22:41:29 tortu: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.) 22:42:17 -!- tortu has left. 22:44:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:52:00 -!- APic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:03:33 I have no idea who to vote for 23:03:55 For what? 23:04:08 the upcoming election 23:05:34 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_federal_election,_2015 23:05:37 that one 23:06:29 harper didn't do anything wrong like I feared he would, so I can't rule him out anymore 23:06:29 bob harper 2015 23:08:36 I guess I can rule out liz may 23:12:29 but other than that... gaaah I can't decide 23:18:29 hey boily, you know .ca politics, who should I vote for? 23:19:08 boily 2015? 23:20:19 ronald reagan 2016 23:20:59 wait ronald reagan isn't dead?!?!?! 23:21:03 Today's joke courtesy of seeing it on #xmonad: 23:21:04 @where real world haskell 23:21:04 http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ <-- the comprehensive xmonad configuration syntax reference 23:21:08 It's funny because it's true. 23:21:47 whoa whoa whoa 23:21:53 You're in #xmonad? 23:21:55 @where real 23:21:55 http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ <-- the comprehensive xmonad configuration syntax reference 23:22:18 It's the window manager I use, I just lurk there for useful tips and tricks. 23:22:46 Also re elections, I'm now registered to vote in the UK. Mainly because they threatened me with a fine (in fact, two fines) if I opted not to. 23:23:29 First to list eligible-for-registration people in the household (with a big fine for not doing that), and then to actually register (with a smaller fine for not doing that). 23:23:41 I'm not sure if they also have an even smaller fine for not voting. 23:23:45 Probably not. 23:24:42 I guess they didn't actually directly threaten, they just implied. 23:25:04 "Every household must respond to this request for information [about eligible voters]. Those who don't respond to the form could be liable to a £1000 fine." 23:25:23 that's a buncha bullshit 23:25:55 "By law, everyone must complete a voter registration form each year, even if they don’t intend to vote. Failure to do so could lead to a fine." 23:26:12 I seem to recall they mentioned some smaller number for the second fine, but I can't find it right now. 23:26:32 I'm registered to vote in California but it's a hassle to do it. 23:26:32 It's always "could lead". I think they've learned that from organized crime protection rackets. 23:26:46 No fines for not doing it, either. 23:27:34 in canada you can decline your ballot 23:27:43 maybe I should do that 23:28:20 In Finland there's no registration, but that's only because the Population Register Centre keeps track of you anyhow. 23:28:37 You need to tell them if you move, etc. 23:29:35 mauris: what's a fun haskell thing 23:30:12 wow, define thing 23:30:21 no 23:31:07 ok "thing" is a hard thing to define. but like "thing to make with haskell" or "feature of haskell" or help 23:31:44 how about an enlightening exercise or abstraction or something 23:32:14 Also there's this here in UK: unless you explicitly opt out, your voter registration details go on the "open register", which is "available to anyone who wants to buy a copy" (https://www.gov.uk/electoral-register/opt-out-of-the-open-register) and which (AIUI) is used for marketing. 23:33:03 hmmm i found messing around with cata and ana and Fix, recently, very enlightening 23:33:14 And you need to opt out every time. This I think they learned from the Adobe Flash updater. 23:33:24 and i want to play more with polymorphic recursion! i just can't think of any uses for it ;-; 23:33:40 mauris: Have you done the exercise with Mu/Nu/Fix? 23:34:46 https://github.com/aristidb/playground/blob/master/MuNu.hs oh, this thing? 23:35:03 That looks right. 23:35:08 You can ignore Fix, sort of. 23:35:13 Mu and Nu are the interesting ones. 23:35:46 What are the inhabitants of Mu Maybe and Nu Maybe? 23:35:50 i haven't, but that looks cool and i might give it a shot right now 23:36:41 Avoid recursion wherever possible. 23:39:09 Mu ($Nothing), for the former... 23:39:52 There's more than that. 23:40:55 looking at Nu, that looks a bit trickier -- it has to work forall a., but i need to supply an a? 23:41:46 newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r }; data Nu f = forall x. Nu x (x -> f x) 23:41:59 You get to choose x. The consumer gets to choose r. 23:42:11 But you're not done with Mu, 23:42:13 s/.$/./ 23:44:42 hmm. i'll think out loud: basically i have to come up with a function (Maybe r -> r) -> r that is polymorphic over r, right? 23:44:58 ooh, i have an idea 23:45:48 (\f -> f Nothing), (\f -> f $ Just $ f Nothing), (\f -> f $ Just $ f $ Just $ f Nothing), etc. 23:45:59 sgtm 23:46:00 (wrap all of those in Mu) 23:46:09 No, Mu isn't involved. 23:46:20 Well 23:46:30 (\f -> f Nothing), (\f -> f (Just (f Nothing))), (\f -> f (Just (f (Just (f Nothing))))), etc. 23:46:32 I've spent the last hour or so doing something strange 23:46:40 So what can you say about Mu Maybe? 23:46:54 (oh, i meant that as in: i had to give inhabitants of Mu Maybe, not the type it's a wrapper around) 23:47:38 Oh. 23:48:28 hmm. it reminds me of Fix Maybe in a way that's a bit hard to pin down 23:49:03 What are the inhabitants of Fix Maybe? 23:49:07 Or you can do Nu Maybe next. 23:49:33 I made a sentence generator 23:49:42 quick question: i suppose (\f -> f (Just (f (Just (f (Just ...)))))) = (\f -> fix (f.Just)) is also an inhabitant, right? 23:49:56 Specifically purposed toward /dirty/ sentences as I thought it'd be funny 23:50:09 It currently does primitive perversity in exactly 100 lines of code 23:50:19 And is quite configurable 23:50:28 mauris: No, you're not allowed recursion in Mu. 23:50:43 oh, okay 23:51:05 the inhabitants of Fix Maybe are Fix Nothing, Fix (Just (Fix Nothing)), etc. 23:51:36 so hey, Fix is our (f r -> r)! 23:52:25 if r is Fix Maybe 23:52:36 This is a relationship that Fix and Mu have, yes. 23:53:14 @let newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r } 23:53:16 .L.hs:144:36: 23:53:16 Ambiguous occurrence ‘Mu’ 23:53:16 It could refer to either ‘L.Mu’, defined at .L.hs:152:1 23:53:38 Grr. 23:53:55 maybe i should look at Nu Maybe, now, and get back to making a conclusion afterwards 23:53:57 @let newtype Mew f = Mew { runMew :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r } 23:53:59 Defined. 23:54:07 @let newtype Fix f = Fix { runFix :: f (Fix f) } 23:54:09 Defined. 23:54:17 @let data Nu f = forall x. Nu x (x -> f x) 23:54:19 Defined. 23:54:45 mauris: Well, can you describe the inhabitants of Mu Maybe? 23:56:57 hmmm... well, they all apply (f . Just) some number of times to (f Nothing). they sort of look like folds over a bunch of `Just`s? 23:57:42 Let's see what Nu is. 23:58:10 :t Nu () Just 23:58:12 Nu Maybe 23:58:19 :t Nu "hi shachaf" Just 23:58:21 Nu Maybe 23:58:28 hauris 23:58:30 Those are the same value. 23:58:42 They are equal. 23:58:52 whoa