←2015-08-31 2015-09-01 2015-09-02→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:00:36 <Sgeo_> oren, anyone who likes good music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3z7gfeJw0g
00:16:41 <FreeFull> tswett: I'm not sure what they mean by top & bottom if two of those sides aren't it
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00:24:23 <oren> Sgeo_: cool!
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00:36:58 * oerjan crosses himself off the list of people who like good music
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00:46:01 <fizzie> That reminds me of that one thing that I can't remember the name of.
00:46:31 <oerjan> is it amortization hth
00:47:22 <shachaf> `? fizzie
00:47:23 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
00:47:29 <shachaf> is it fnord
00:47:33 <oerjan> also, "faces" is probably more standard terminology than "sides"
00:48:03 <oerjan> SO GENE RAY IS ENTIRELY CORRECT hth
00:48:46 <fizzie> oerjan: No, it was that Manbo-dead-behind-the-house-P thing.
00:50:28 <shachaf> oerjan: why didn't durkon use disruption again in olist 429 like in 104 twh
00:55:19 <oerjan> shachaf: well the sword is starmetal now. otherwise i dunno.
00:55:36 <shachaf> @google disruption d&d
00:55:37 <lambdabot> http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Disruption
00:55:37 <lambdabot> Title: SRD:Disruption - D&D Wiki
00:56:07 <shachaf> seems p. effective
00:56:14 <shachaf> isn't the sword just as non-bludgeoning as before?
00:56:33 <oerjan> i just noticed that
00:57:01 <shachaf> perhaps it's http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptingWeapon.htm
00:57:14 <oerjan> but perhaps his phylactery is negating the effect?
00:57:36 <shachaf> he had the phylactery before too
00:57:37 <oerjan> because surely rich cannot just have messed up.
00:57:48 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, but roy didn't _know_ he had
00:57:57 <oerjan> he was surprised that xykon came back
00:58:03 <shachaf> ok but last time xykon destroyed the sword
00:59:10 <oerjan> that is true, so the theory hasn't been properly tested
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01:12:46 <Sgeo_> oren, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGrdGXDcoGU there's a comment that seems to have some more background
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01:35:36 <shachaf> oerjan: so what's with olist 963
01:36:35 <oerjan> so what's with not using urls
01:37:44 <shachaf> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html
01:37:50 <shachaf> hthyh
01:38:46 <oerjan> well back when i read it, it obviously seemed to be about something (demi-)humanlike the demon was incapable of grasping
01:38:59 <shachaf> i was thinking that's how they'd figure durkon out
01:39:05 <oerjan> and i fully expected it to come up as ... precisely
01:39:12 <shachaf> so now what twh
01:39:16 <oerjan> but it seems a bit late now
01:39:26 <shachaf> maybe it'll come up soon
01:39:47 <Sgeo_> I've seen speculation that Durkon can give Durkon misleading memories regarding combat style, and further speculation that this is already happening
01:39:49 <shachaf> they won't be sure whether it's true durkon or what
01:40:39 <oerjan> the problem is, if they don't notice that the demon durkon is different _before_ resurrecting the true one, then i don't see how it will help afterwards
01:41:02 <shachaf> maybe something comes up where they have to keep it alive
01:41:07 <shachaf> or something
01:45:06 <Sgeo_> Is Roy as talkative as HPoH thinks? I don't remember, but I think Roy is willing to fight when necessary, and HPoH... doesn't realize?
01:46:30 <oerjan> shachaf: hm i suppose if the resurrection _fails_ at getting rid of "HPoH", it could matter.
01:46:44 <shachaf> oh, that would be interesting
01:49:10 <oerjan> Sgeo_: hm did HPoH learn that "fact" in one of durkon's flashbacks?
01:49:23 <oerjan> (that we saw, that is)
01:49:58 <Sgeo_> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html not a directly seen flashback, but HPoH references an event suggesting that
01:50:08 <Sgeo_> (Which was in On The Origins of PCs)
01:51:19 <oerjan> that's the reference i was talking about, i haven't read that book
01:53:10 <shachaf> oerjan: it's now available for the first time in digital pdf format from gumroad hth
01:54:18 <oerjan> THX
01:56:23 * Sgeo_ also bought Dungeon Crawlin' Fools because bonus comics and commentary and I have more money than sense
01:56:56 <Jafet> > minimumBy (comparing length) ["oots", "olist"]
01:56:58 <lambdabot> "oots"
01:57:32 <Sgeo_> :t comparing length
01:57:33 <lambdabot> Foldable t => t a -> t a -> Ordering
01:58:27 <oerjan> > sortBy (comparing length) [Just 'h', Just 'i', Nothing, Nothing]
01:58:29 <lambdabot> [Nothing,Nothing,Just 'h',Just 'i']
01:58:39 <oerjan> FTP, so fancy
01:59:17 <shachaf> they don't serve it over HTTP?
02:00:14 * oerjan isn't sure if shachaf is making the too obvious pun or being whooshed
02:00:51 <shachaf> if you're talking about a haskell-related acronym that is three letters long and ends in P, i refuse to acknowledge any such thing
02:00:56 <shachaf> i hate them all
02:01:07 <shachaf> and anyone who comes up with one of those is terrible
02:01:21 <oerjan> just make an AAP hth
02:02:27 <oerjan> are there more than two that originated with haskell
02:03:18 * oerjan wonders if it was a bad idea to make his GND proposal while SPJ was on holiday
02:04:10 <oerjan> oh right PVP too
02:04:20 <oerjan> so at least three
02:04:55 <oerjan> actually i think they changed AMP to FAM or something
02:05:03 <shachaf> not only with haskell, with the same person
02:05:15 <shachaf> you don't have to name everything
02:05:17 <shachaf> disgusting
02:05:33 <oerjan> was it HVR
02:06:15 <shachaf> no
02:06:30 <pikhq> Driving in CA makes me grumpy. I should do it less.
02:06:41 <oerjan> was it edwardk
02:07:06 <shachaf> no
02:07:10 <shachaf> i shouldn't have talked about it
02:07:48 <shachaf> and i didn't mean to single that person out
02:11:06 <oerjan> shachaf: i understand your name has three letters and ends with P tdnh
02:11:26 <shachaf> look
02:11:30 <shachaf> we should just all hug it out
02:11:49 <oerjan> @hug
02:11:49 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
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03:58:56 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making Disarray: The World's Crappiest Game Engine
04:03:41 <hppavilion[1]> If anyone has any esoteric suggestions for it, feel free to say
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04:09:13 <Sgeo_> If arrays are 1-dimensional variables, and scalars are 0-dimensional variables, Disarray should use -1-dimensional variables
04:09:49 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo_: Disarray is a pun on Unity
04:10:12 <Sgeo_> I suppose you could take the view that arrays are 2-dimensional, scalars 1-dimensional, so you should use 0-dimensional variables, but that's boring
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07:19:53 <edwardk> oerjan: we changed the burning bridges proposal (BBP) to the Foldable/Traversable Proposal (FTP) is that what you mean?
07:19:58 <edwardk> AMP remained AMP
07:20:25 <oerjan> i thought i saw somewhere a different acronym for AMP
07:20:34 <oerjan> which included Functor
07:21:51 <oerjan> edwardk: ^
07:22:01 <edwardk> nah
07:22:04 <edwardk> AMP stayed
07:22:10 <edwardk> its even in a ghc command line thing
07:22:13 <edwardk> -fwarn-amp
07:22:18 <edwardk> so its never changing =)
07:22:24 <oerjan> ha
07:23:38 <shachaf> Ugh.
07:23:42 <shachaf> I hate GHC now.
07:24:16 <shachaf> The only saving grace is that GHC doesn't care about breaking backwards compatibility.
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07:28:16 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i think, esoOS should have roguelike elements
07:28:59 <hppavilion[1]> Interesting idea...
07:30:05 <myname> after each boot, commands are assigned to functions randomly
07:30:25 <myname> and there need to be mechanisms to determine the type of commands
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07:34:31 <hppavilion[1]> Interesting idea
07:34:35 <hppavilion[1]> Wait
07:34:38 <hppavilion[1]> Already said that
07:34:48 <hppavilion[1]> Like, could the mechanism be trial and error?
07:35:22 <hppavilion[1]> myname?
07:35:23 <myname> my first idea was to let builtins and /tmp always unchanged
07:35:36 <hppavilion[1]> OK
07:35:38 <hppavilion[1]> Or?
07:36:08 <myname> so you could do echo "foo" > /tmp/bar
07:36:32 <myname> and if there is a file bar with cobtebt fooy, you know echo and > work as expected
07:37:10 <myname> if you get file not found, it could be because > is assigned to < or |
07:37:16 <myname> or echo works differently
07:38:24 <hppavilion[1]> OK
07:38:57 <hppavilion[1]> Intesting...
07:39:24 <hppavilion[1]> So commands and redirectors get shuffled on boot?
07:39:45 <myname> yeah
07:42:22 <hppavilion[1]> Cool
07:42:34 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking about making the filesys a self-balancing binary tree
07:42:38 <hppavilion[1]> Just for the lulz
07:42:49 <hppavilion[1]> But that'd make programming /impossible/
07:44:07 <myname> why?
07:44:34 <hppavilion[1]> Why do that or why would it make programming impossible?
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07:47:52 <myname> second
07:49:43 <hppavilion[1]> Well
07:49:50 <hppavilion[1]> Not LITERALLY impossible
07:49:53 <hppavilion[1]> But very hard
07:50:13 <hppavilion[1]> Because when you can't organize files in a logical matter
07:50:16 <hppavilion[1]> It's harder to do
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08:03:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShortScript]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43989 * YourDeathIsComing * (+909) Created page with "ShortScript(SS) i an work in progress programming language for code golfing. It´s written in Batch. It operates an only 5 variables:α, β, γ, δ, ε. <br /> <br /> <br /> =..."
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11:37:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43990&oldid=43988 * SuperJedi224 * (-34)
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11:41:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43991&oldid=43990 * SuperJedi224 * (+26) /* Instructions */
11:41:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43992&oldid=43991 * SuperJedi224 * (-3) /* Truth Machine */
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11:53:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43993&oldid=43992 * SuperJedi224 * (+766)
11:55:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43994&oldid=43993 * SuperJedi224 * (+45) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
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14:58:01 <tswett> `? hthyh
14:58:02 <HackEgo> hthyh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:58:53 <tswett> `le/rn hthyh/"hthyh" is a common typo for "tithe".
14:58:55 <HackEgo> Learned «hthyh»
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16:14:39 <shachaf> it stands for "hope that helps, your highness"
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17:07:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Algebra]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43995&oldid=43965 * Rdococ * (+20)
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18:18:40 <FreeFull> Is there any web browser that follows a client-daemon model?
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18:23:54 <shachaf> oerjan: http://spirituality.chat/ hth
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18:33:23 <fizzie> FreeFull: Chrome Remote Desktop could be considered that, if you stretch the definitions as far as they go, but not really.
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18:44:23 <hppavilion[1]> An ingredient-oriented Programming Langauge would be interesting
18:44:32 <hppavilion[1]> As in, you have a pool of ingredients
18:45:06 <hppavilion[1]> And you combine them in a combinatorical fashion in a given environment to produce results
18:45:11 <hppavilion[1]> Using up ingredients in the process
18:45:47 <hppavilion[1]> I'm sure it'd be useful in Information Security or something, in that you use up "ingredients" as you do it and thus need to know exactly what you want when you start
18:45:53 <hppavilion[1]> So if you do it well, there isn't any leak
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18:46:28 <hppavilion[1]> Hi, nycs!
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18:47:29 <hppavilion[1]> ais523?
18:47:49 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: have you seen affine typing?
18:47:53 <hppavilion[1]> No
18:47:58 <hppavilion[1]> Googling it now
18:48:32 <nycs> hello
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18:48:55 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Can't find any english resources on it
18:49:17 <ais523> seriously? I'd have thought it was better known than that
18:49:34 <ais523> but the idea's that you can only use a function argument once, you can't copy it or use it multiple times
18:49:45 <hppavilion[1]> Interesting
18:49:57 <hppavilion[1]> What's it used for?
18:49:58 <shachaf> There are certainly resources on affine types.
18:50:02 <ais523> hmm, Wikipedia's entry seems to be here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affine_logic
18:50:05 <shachaf> And affine logic.
18:50:07 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
18:50:09 <ais523> (logics and type systems have a 1-to-1 correspondence)
18:50:17 <ais523> and I use it in my day job
18:50:18 <shachaf> @google affine typing
18:50:19 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substructural_type_system
18:50:36 <hppavilion[1]> I actually used DDG
18:50:50 <ais523> shachaf: it's one sentence in that article
18:51:00 <hppavilion[1]> I just used the word "Google" because it's more understandable
18:51:00 <ais523> Wikipedia doesn't have much information about affine typing/logic, really
18:51:22 <hppavilion[1]> I prefer the idea of ingredients-oriented programming
18:51:41 <hppavilion[1]> stdout(echo, "Hello, World!")
18:51:46 <shachaf> Forunately there are other results.
18:52:02 <shachaf> Anyway the "resources" interpretation of linear logic only goes so far, as far as I know.
18:52:06 <hppavilion[1]> That's "Mix echo and 'Hello, World!' in the STDOUT"
18:52:25 <ais523> shachaf: the research in that direction mostly seems to be along the lines of "coeffects" nowadays
18:52:33 <ais523> with the problem being that nobody seems to be able to coherently state what a coeffect is
18:52:50 <shachaf> I have not heard of coeffects.
18:52:58 <ais523> (you use comonads rather than monads to represent them in pure languages like Haskell, that much is widely agreed on)
18:53:47 <ais523> first relevant duckduckgo result seems to be this one: http://tomasp.net/academic/
18:53:59 <shachaf> Yes.
18:54:08 <ais523> (there are a lot of irrelevant ones beforehand)
18:54:24 <shachaf> Oh, it was the first Google result.
18:54:41 <ais523> that's because Google results depend on who's searching, and so Google had a decent idea of which meaning of "coeffect" you likely wanted
18:54:55 <ais523> whereas duckduckgo results don't, and thus it can't allow for the fact that we probably want an academic/CS definition
18:54:57 <shachaf> I use Incognito Mode for all Google searches.
18:55:06 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how much that helps
18:55:08 <ais523> I mean, I'd hope it helps
18:56:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43996 * Hppavilion1 * (+561) Created Page
18:56:29 <ais523> also, a review of my webserver logs show that basically everyone either enters URLs manually or doesn't send referers nowadays
18:56:35 <ais523> who visits my site, at least
18:56:45 <ais523> and a noticeable minority send referers that can't possibly be correct, i.e. are faking them
18:56:51 <shachaf> Probably they get directed from https: sites, whereas yours is an http: site?
18:57:07 <shachaf> Browsers don't send referers in that case.
18:57:18 <ais523> oh yes, that would make sense
19:00:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43997&oldid=43996 * Hppavilion1 * (+342) Ingredients and Utensils
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19:24:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Algebra]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43998&oldid=43995 * Rdococ * (+12) updated
19:25:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43999&oldid=43997 * Hppavilion1 * (+1161) Extended the article
19:26:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44000&oldid=43999 * Hppavilion1 * (-2) changed a word for clarity
19:27:20 <mauris> imo people suck at making esolangs :(
19:27:37 <izabera> teach them
19:27:59 <mauris> i also suck!
19:28:00 <rdococ> delicious oriented paradigm
19:28:12 <rdococ> I know I suck at making esolangs...
19:28:19 <rdococ> it's because my ideas aren't esoteric enough
19:28:27 <rdococ> and are actually innovative
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19:34:31 <mauris> i've always wanted to make one about chemistry but i'm bad at chemistry, whooops
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19:39:11 <mauris> i've also always wanted to make one that's very difficult for computers to interpret, but for a less boring reason than IRP
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19:40:04 <mauris> maybe something like... you need to run some real-life processes that are deterministic but extremely difficult to simulate?
19:41:02 <mauris> and then an interpreter would need help from a real-world actor to run these processes and report on them. this is inspired by cfluviurrh
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20:35:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Categorisation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44001 * Ais523 * (+36) redirect; seems like a pretty likely typo to me
20:36:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WUUI]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44002 * Ais523 * (+9220) new language!
20:36:56 <ais523> hey, so I've been working on an actual esolang :-)
20:37:00 <ais523> let me know what you think of WUUI
20:37:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44003&oldid=41001 * Ais523 * (+10) +[[WUUI]]
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20:37:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44004&oldid=43933 * Ais523 * (+11) /* W */ +[[WUUI]]
20:39:41 <ais523> hmm, it's oddly similar to My Unreliable Past in some ways
20:39:51 <ais523> but different
20:40:24 <ais523> tasks: write a Hello World that's more efficient than O(2^(n^2))
20:40:30 <ais523> (note: this may involve optimizing the interpreter)
20:40:36 <ais523> prove TCness or otherwise
20:40:47 <ais523> actually, just write an interpreter that does some semblence of optimization
20:40:58 <ais523> I don't really want to write an unoptimizing one because it'd never end in a reasonable timeframe
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20:48:36 <FreeFull> O(2^n^2)? What language is that?
20:48:41 <ais523> FreeFull: http://esolangs.org/wiki/WUUI
20:51:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shove]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44005&oldid=35344 * Ais523 * (+15) /* External resources */ sprunge links aren't permalinks; good thing I happened to have the original around and could rehost it
20:51:41 <FreeFull> Says if the output diverges, the program is restarted again. But is there any means to have diverging output? Is there input?
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20:51:50 <ais523> FreeFull: there's a lot of randomness involved
20:52:07 <ais523> something like until(x[257]/1000); output;
20:52:13 <ais523> will pretty much output a random byte
20:52:17 <FreeFull> Ah, I see, random increases and decreases
20:53:43 <ais523> hmm, I've been playing around in this space quite a bit, I think
20:53:49 <ais523> e.g. /ˈæmbiːɛf/
20:54:15 <ais523> but WUUI is better, because a) it doesn't fit neatly into any paradigm I've seen (it's closest to declarative), and b) it isn't a BF derivative
20:54:59 <ais523> in retrospect, a decent part of my esolanging career has been driven by my hatred of Java2K
20:55:31 <b_jonas> what
20:55:42 <b_jonas> that sounds like a strange motivation
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20:56:15 <ais523> b_jonas: have you seen Java2K? :-(
20:56:36 <b_jonas> no
20:56:41 <b_jonas> but I don't see how that's connected to esolangs
20:56:55 <ais523> b_jonas: Java2K is an esolang
20:56:59 <b_jonas> sure
20:57:05 <b_jonas> but how does it motivate you in making more esolangs?
20:57:15 <ais523> b_jonas: because it had an interesting premise and completely wasted it
20:57:47 <b_jonas> ah, so it's a _bad_ esolang
20:57:49 <b_jonas> I see
20:57:51 <ais523> yes
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20:59:07 <coppro> ais523: what is the probability of a cell oing 0 -> 1?
20:59:21 <ais523> coppro: 1/3 I guess, although it doesn't really conceptuallly matter
20:59:26 <ais523> *conceptually
20:59:36 <ais523> especially as the probabilities are approximate anyway
21:02:46 <b_jonas> ais523: in WUUI, does only zero count as false?
21:03:08 <ais523> b_jonas: yep
21:03:11 <ais523> although division rounds down
21:03:16 <ais523> so you can effectively compare to a constant via dividing by it
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21:03:52 <b_jonas> wait, division rounds down? ok
21:03:57 <b_jonas> um
21:04:04 <b_jonas> rounds down or rounds towards zero?
21:04:19 <b_jonas> the page says "rounds downwards towards zero" which is strange
21:04:21 <b_jonas> which of the two?
21:04:27 <b_jonas> is it truncating division or flooring division?
21:04:32 <b_jonas> oh wait
21:04:33 <ais523> both! we only use nonnegative integers
21:04:39 <b_jonas> the array contains only nonnegative integers?
21:04:40 <b_jonas> hmm
21:05:02 <b_jonas> what happens if the value of a cell would decrease under zero?
21:05:12 <ais523> it doesn't
21:05:38 <b_jonas> so it's as if it the random walk was mirrored around -1/2, not around 0?
21:05:49 <ais523> I guess that's one way to think about it
21:06:00 <b_jonas> ok
21:10:17 <b_jonas> and when is the memory modified? after each statement? it's not modified between evaluating subexpressions, or within an output; statement, right?
21:10:36 <ais523> after the test of each while/until/unless/if instruction
21:10:49 <b_jonas> ok
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21:12:35 <b_jonas> hmm, this WUUI language indeed looks scary and esoteric
21:13:22 <ais523> thanks
21:17:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Flower]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44006 * Rdococ * (+781) Flower, the first turing complete language I have thought of in a while
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22:02:38 <Jafet> If Java is also a bad language, wouldn't that mean that Java2K is an accurate satire of Java?
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22:41:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The font of all knowledge | The channel where Sir Fungellot does not. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
22:41:27 <hppavilion[1]> That makes more sense to me
22:41:46 <hppavilion[1]> The word fnord wouldn't be redacted, you just wouldn't see it
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22:54:58 <Jafet> fungot can see fnord.
22:54:58 <fungot> Jafet: people can get over the 14g trinet upload limits." when asked, chat a bit about ircd programming :) i even don't understand your comment
22:55:12 <Jafet> Or perhaps not.
22:55:40 <shachaf> fungot
22:55:40 <fungot> shachaf: the war is over. i don't know
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