00:05:01 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:12:34 I'm back 00:34:02 Major change #1 in Zodiac Lisp: AFAICT, the function call cannot be another SExp. In LIZP (or whatever I call it), this will be possible: 00:34:40 ((if (= op 'sub') - +) 1 2 3 4 5) 00:37:02 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:40:55 I still like the idea of adjectives for OO... 00:41:24 Perhaps an adjective called "fat" in a language that makes you deal with memory? 00:42:40 person = class(){__init__ = function(object self, short age){short self.age = age}} 00:42:48 i'm unconfortable with - taking more than two arguments 00:43:14 But if you create "person" with the "fat" descriptor, then the "short"s become "long"s 00:43:23 izabera: Subtraction is just adding the inverse 00:43:45 Think of (- 1 2 3 4 5) as (+ 1 -2 -3 -4 -5) 00:43:52 well yes but 00:44:03 You know what makes ME uncomfortable? 00:44:09 Multiple-argument /bit shifts/ 00:44:20 (<< 16 2) is OK 00:44:29 But (<< 16 2 3)!? WTF!? 00:44:45 what does that mean? 00:45:10 << is the bitwise left shift, at least in python 00:45:22 I'm pretty sure in most languages that support it 00:46:29 izabera: Or do you not know what bitshift is? xD 00:47:31 so (<< 16 2 3) is like (16 << 2) << 3 in c? 00:47:53 I guess it must be 00:48:07 I mean, that's the only interpretation I can think of 00:48:21 Either that or 16 << (2 << 3) 00:48:28 But probably the first one 00:53:31 izabera: I'm trying to make The λ-Calculus easier to understand by inventing λ-Arithmetic, for people to start with. It's part of the ZWG's "Elementary School CS" project. Do you have any ideas? 00:53:45 what is zwg? 00:54:06 Zodiac Working Group 00:54:55 It's a group I started attempting to make the products of a tendency towards Esolangs useful and more widespread 00:55:16 that would make them less eso-, wouldn't it? 00:55:29 For example, actual, useful programming languages that are nothing like what normal programming languages are 00:55:40 izabera: Yes, but such is the cost of bettering humanity through the esoteric 00:56:14 (The first attempt at the aforementioned type of language was Stare, for which the jury is still out on whether it's a useful thing) 00:56:45 (The goal is to create more Perls and Haskells for the world) 00:58:05 So do you have any suggestions for λ-Arithmetic? 00:58:43 i'm not good at inventing things 00:58:55 Do you understand the λ-Calculus? 00:58:58 Because I barely do 00:59:15 ok that doesn't sound like a great starting point for inventing a new branch of it 01:00:00 I know 01:00:01 xD 01:00:04 I'm learning about it though 01:00:58 why did you say "more Perls and Haskells"? 01:01:08 i mean they're really different 01:01:30 Because they're so different, but they have their uses. 01:01:44 AND they help expand the minds of programmers, get them to think in different ways 01:02:42 Programmers are smart, but not smart enough. The goal of the ZWG is to get programmers so smart that we become telepathic and can use our infinite glorious knowledge to become gods and rule over the universe with an iron fist as a massive collective wait what? 01:03:00 You saw nothing. 01:03:41 that escalated quickly 01:03:50 err... nothing escalated quickly 01:04:03 Good. 01:09:54 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:11:56 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:21:41 I want to make yet another website documenting all of the math... 01:30:28 -!- Wright has joined. 01:31:55 But my "All of the Math" website would be targetted at people with a genuine interest in mathematics, as opposed to those who just need to get their homework done so they can pass 01:34:55 [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44317&oldid=44316 * SuperJedi224 * (+113) 01:35:31 hppavilion[1]: what do you mean by λ-Arithmetic? 01:36:09 tswett: I was just making things up xD. I was wondering if it was possible to create a simpler λ-calculus that need not be TC, but would be a good way to start learning about it 01:36:31 The same way it's easier to figure out normal Calculi if you already understand how to add 01:39:06 Lambda calculus isn't really related to differential calculus, though. 01:39:58 The word "calculus" in "lambda calculus" means "collection of symbol manipulation rules". 01:40:29 tswett: I know, but that doesn't mean there isn't a much simpler thing that one could think of as the "arithmetic" of λness, though I suppose arithmetic wouldn't be the proper word for it 01:40:51 That doesn't mean there is, either, of course 01:40:53 first order lambda calc? 01:41:06 How about last order lambda calculus? xD 01:41:15 I've given up on λ-arithmetic 01:41:19 Though I'm remember that name 01:42:08 If, someday, I happen to be good with λ-calculus and want to help others understand it too (and they don't already), I might make a paper or a book called "λ-arithmetic" just as a pun 01:42:35 01:43:10 (I might've said this before, but I'm saying it now because I don't think I did) 01:43:30 When I first checked my school district's requirements to graduate, I was a /little/ angry 01:43:39 http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/ 01:43:40 you may try non-Church encoding of arithmetics in \lambda calculus 01:43:52 You need 4 credits Social Studies and English 01:44:09 But only 3 in math and 3 (or maybe less) in science 01:44:26 And thus, I was like "OK school district, what the FUCK are you doing" 01:44:55 Then, in my Algebra II class, the teacher was talking about how some people hit a ceiling on their ability to comprehend math. 01:44:58 And I realized 01:45:01 That's not a problem 01:45:04 yes, I always hated english but had difficulty articulating that 01:45:13 xD 01:45:18 The problem is that they require so much english and Social Studies. 01:45:44 People don't necessarily need Math and Science, but others don't necessarily need English and Social Studies 01:46:24 I decided you shouldn't be required to take more math, because then some people would never graduate because they hit a ceiling on their ability to comprehend abstract mathematical concepts 01:46:59 You should be able to graduate on a fixed number of credits from /any/ class with some low minimums on how many can be from each subject 01:47:09 have you graduated yet? 01:47:13 that's how civilization dies 01:47:16 Nope 01:47:49 That way, people who are great at writing but suck at math don't hit a ceiling, and people who are great at math but not so much at writing could greaduate on math credits 01:48:10 izabera: You couldn't get away with /no/ SS and English, but you also couldn't get away wiht /no/ math and science 01:48:50 And there will always be people who are good at math and science and enjoy it, so the idea that if we don't require as much then no one at all will understand it doesn't make sense 01:49:04 by that reasoning, why are we forcing people to take their first grade math classes? 01:49:12 we have calculators 01:49:21 we don't need to be able to sum 01:49:27 tradition 01:49:34 izabera: Because no one who doesn't have some serious issue hits the ceiling at first grade math 01:49:39 It still help to know how sum works, even if you can do it by calculator 01:49:52 but children hit their ceilings 01:50:17 There's a BIG difference between having trouble at first grade math and being mentally unable to understand differential calculus 01:50:20 For simple sums I don't use the calculator, it is easy enough without 01:50:20 brett victor says we don't need as much analytic math because direct simulation can get many results that matter to us 01:50:21 no 01:50:25 hppavilion[1]: no there isn't 01:50:41 calculus is easy 01:50:57 conceptually 01:51:00 doesthiswork: For you and me it is (well, I haven't gotten there yet, but it should be) 01:51:32 everything that's taught in school classes is easy 01:51:46 Perhaps for you 01:51:54 And, for the most part, for me 01:52:07 (I'm good at learning, bad at showing I did it on homework) 01:52:25 being easy is the reason they're teaching it in school classes 01:52:51 OK 01:53:02 I've always wanted to create a YouTube lecture series that teaches math. 01:53:14 I work as agricultural labor, all my coworkers can understand what a derivative is even if they don't know how that matches to written formulas. 01:53:19 Not all of them are good at easy; the art class is difficult, I dropped it. 01:53:44 tswett: I want to see a video that works from arithmetic to calculus in pure mathematics 01:53:46 No analogies 01:54:37 Then I hate to burst your bubble--there are gonna be analogies everywhere. 01:54:38 Just a short part of the video that defines some primitive symbols, then uses those symbols to define more complex things, and works up to extreme complexity 01:54:41 <\oren\> no matter how much calculus you know, you'll never become the suppository of all wisdom 01:54:51 <\oren\> -- Tony Abbot 01:54:55 tswett: In your video if you do it? 01:54:56 That's fine 01:54:59 analogies are the difficult part 01:55:03 I don't need you to do it personally xD 01:55:06 Right, you're talking about something else. 01:55:17 they are the part that takes the most effort to learn 01:55:24 izabera: Let's assume that people having trouble with calc is the same as people having trouble wiht multiplication. 01:55:25 I think for every concept, I'd have three things: the intuition behind the concept, the definition of the concept, and a bunch of examples. 01:55:35 ok let's 01:55:38 And, of course, an explanation of how these all relate to each other. 01:55:49 I figure my target audience is bright adults who just happen to have never learned this stuff. 01:55:53 What I would want is more of the books, the problem is they make too many videos which mean some things I cannot find in books so well 01:56:24 Some things are difficult with analogies, some things are difficult without analogies, some things are difficult either way, and some analogies are difficult. 01:56:30 So, can we agree that an average third grader is mentally incapable of understanding calculus, even if given all the resources needed to understand the things before it? 01:57:01 Or, more generally, that there's a minimum age that some people are capable of understanding some things? 01:57:15 no we can't agree on that 01:57:26 hppavilion[1]: I do not know the answers to those questions, although it may also differ by people, not just age, anyways 01:57:29 izabera: On which one? 01:57:36 zzo38: That's what I meant 01:57:43 Keyword: Average 01:58:07 Either way I don't know. (Also the first one you mentioned average, not the second one) 01:58:27 zzo38: In the second one, I said "some people" 01:58:31 i think the point is not age, is that to understand some concepts you need this and this and that 01:58:36 Yes, but which people? 01:58:44 my mom taught middle school math and the big concept that she tried to make sure everyone understood before they moved on was ratios and proportional relationships 01:58:46 so you need to take this class and that class etc.. 01:59:06 izabera: You are probably correct. 01:59:20 zzo38: I'm trying to express that people learn at different rates, and though I'm ready for algebra II now, the people in the middle of the bell curve are not 01:59:33 Age may have something to do with it possibly, but a lot of other things are more important 02:00:35 izabera: Can we agree on what I just said? Some people are prepared to learn things earlier than others? 02:00:56 That much I can agree with at least 02:01:02 never 02:01:34 izabera? 02:01:45 the tiebreaker 02:02:00 Theology is especially difficult though; I have confused well-educated religious people with it a lot 02:02:16 Yeah xD 02:02:17 hppavilion[1]: go on 02:02:47 So we can agree on that though? Person A might be ready to learn something years before Person B? 02:03:17 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:03:30 (I have two more axioms to agree on) 02:03:46 I'll just take that as a yes then 02:03:55 i don't know how different the human brain was 10000 years ago, but i'm pretty sure they didn't teach multiplication in schools 02:04:11 were they incapable of learning it? 02:04:43 izabera: Possibly, but probably not. 02:04:46 10,000 years ago? I'd say probably just about the same. 02:05:16 Multiplication is something that I would guess anyone without some serious condition is capable of understanding by third grade 02:05:29 But not by the time they're 3, necessarily 02:05:43 what about learning english? 02:06:06 yes, three year olds understand division much more better than multiplication 02:06:15 my grandma doesn't speak english, and mine isn't that good 02:06:31 izabera: What we decide on here will encompass all four major subjects, I assume. We just happen to be focusing on math, as we're all geeks here 02:07:23 Proposition #2: Can it be agreed that there are jobs that one can be good at without understanding calculus that AREN'T just manual labor? 02:07:50 they teached me how to play flute 02:07:57 i never needed it past that class 02:08:05 OK 02:08:43 Programming is one example of prop #2 02:08:47 My dad's job is definitely a highly skilled occupation, and I don't think he remembers how calculus works. 02:08:54 Proposition #3: Can it be agreed that, though there is most certainly a link, one can be very far to the right on a bell curve in one subject but average or below in another 02:09:16 doesthiswork: Usually, yes. Unless you're at NASA. Then all bets are off. 02:09:57 (That's the final proposition, BTW) 02:10:42 I'm bored waiting, so let's assume the answer is yes. 02:10:53 the problem isn't that 02:11:40 you don't understand that the point of schools is to teach everyone the basics of various subjects 02:11:45 the *basics* 02:12:51 Proposition 1: Some people are ready to learn things earlier than others 02:12:52 Proposition 2: You can get a good job without understanding Advanced Calculus or knowing the hidden meaning of Shakespear or what the Magna Carta was 02:12:52 Proposition 3: One can be good at one subject and average or bad at another 02:13:04 Are those all agreeable to you, izabera zzo38 and doesthiswork? 02:13:16 To me they are, yes 02:13:41 But izabera even said that isn't the point 02:14:19 True. 02:14:33 My argument is partially that Calculus isn't necessarily the basics 02:14:56 Depending on who you are 02:15:00 doesthiswork? 02:15:52 Property 1: The average student takes Calculus in their senior year 02:15:52 Property 2: Some people are below average 02:16:11 (Not going to ask for agreement on those because those are pretty much facts, AFAIK) 02:16:19 oh, I'm not really properly participating in the discussion, I'm just taking potshots when it is amusing 02:16:25 Ah 02:16:26 OK 02:16:52 I have no coherent point to make 02:17:12 Theorem 1: Some people aren't ready to learn Calculus by their senior year (Property 1+Property 2+Proposition 3) 02:17:36 how old are people in their senior year? 02:18:00 there's no senior year here 02:18:21 Corrolary to Theorem 1: Those people can still do well in life (Proposition 2) 02:18:28 izabera: 17-18 I believe 02:18:59 And that's my entire argument 02:19:09 Corrolary to Theorem 1 is the best I've got 02:19:14 of course they can still do well in life 02:19:26 that's what people did in 1500 when calculus didn't exist 02:19:39 Also I don't think izabera was necessarily arguing that every one should be required to take calculus 02:20:02 He was objecting to you drawing the line by difficulty 02:20:09 izabera: Well, to be fair, people did well in life when math barely existed back when we were cavemen. You can't do well in life with no understanding of math now. 02:20:46 I'm arguing that Calculus is not necessary if you're not good at calculus because Property 3: People tend to want to do things they're good at 02:21:13 (I'm pretty sure that's a thing. Let me leave science for a minute and check what Sociology has to say) 02:22:06 No, don't go check, that breaks the rules of discussion. 02:22:11 And I give up. Don't know where to find documents on that. 02:22:46 doesthiswork: I'm pretty sure that the rules of Internet Debate are that if you don't check that you're right when you're unsure, you're an idiot and shouldn't be debating 02:23:10 No: "if you don't know, make it up". 02:23:33 <\oren\> I'mma release the first version of my font since I switched away from fontstruct soon 02:24:46 In other news, I think I like this format. It seems much more effective a form of arguing to establish a list of propositions and properties and making sure everyone's on the same page prior to starting your argument 02:25:14 THEN making your argument in the form of theorems, lemmas, and conjectures 02:25:31 is that an conjecture? 02:25:42 i didn't like this format as you're not proving anything 02:25:52 `olist 1005 02:25:54 olist 1005: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti 02:26:08 didn't we have this olist days ago? 02:26:59 is this that manual rss feed again? 02:27:14 shachaf: i must have missed it then... 02:27:14 -!- Frooxius has joined. 02:27:35 doesthiswork: Why yes it is 02:28:26 izabera: I suppose your'e not proving anything, but it seems more clear and concise, and it eliminates the factor of the 2+ parties having completely different view on how this works 02:29:05 shachaf: hm i suspect evil durkon may have made a mistake killing too many of the maintenance people... 02:29:08 you could write up a standard for this debate form 02:30:01 I can't remember where the link to the standards site is 02:33:19 hppavilion[1]: i think that's not necessarily what's happening at all. people aren't _really_ agreeing, they're _tentatively_ agreeing in order to continue the discussion. that's because the propositions you pose are not either obviously true or false, nor do we have the skills to easily discern which it is. 02:33:32 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:33:44 oerjan: Oh :/ 02:34:08 Well alternatively, it might be a good way to cheat at arguing xD 02:35:40 so your conclusion is that less credits in each category should be required, right? 02:37:27 doesthiswork: My conclusion is similar to that. It's that, though you should be required to get a certain amount of credits AND you should be required to get a minimum number of credits in each subject, the minimum in each subject should be lower, and you should have the freedom to choose what you're best at for additional credits 02:38:23 So basically, instead of 3 in math and 4 in english, perhaps 2 in math and 2 in english, but have the same number of require credits total. That frees people to focus more on what they're good at and doesn't put someone who simply isn't ready to comprehend the mysteries of calculus into a calculus class 02:38:53 I want to make up my own geometric system. Anyone have any ideas for axioms I could use? 02:39:35 what if i suck at math/english/science/geography/history but 'm good at something that's not taught in schools? 02:39:48 like playing pokemon 02:39:50 <\oren\> あ 02:39:53 can i get credits for that? 02:40:30 <\oren\> only on the internet 02:40:41 the argument for lowering each requirement is that more is unnecessary? 02:41:11 what is the argument for requiring a certain amount of credits total? 02:42:03 izabera: It has to be something that you can actually reasonably get by on in life 02:42:08 I'm probably wrong 02:42:22 This argument was mostly a channel for me to think about it 02:42:44 So 02:42:47 Esoteric Geometry 02:42:48 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZH4E8GG9vwm3OelIxjmnyYvjxAOwxGMTEr2ON5tWeSw/edit?usp=sharing 02:43:02 ok, can i get credits for plowing a field? 02:43:47 Which one of you is currently in the doc? 02:44:00 i opened the link 02:45:12 OK 02:46:58 why did we move from an irc chat to chat in a google document? 02:47:59 <\oren\> beacuse cloud computing, internet of thingies, somethingsomething.io 02:49:27 \oren\ is right 02:51:22 what's a dimension? 02:52:05 is is like a parallel universe where women are men and men are women 02:53:22 izabera: In geometry... a dimension... normal geometry is 2D or sometimes 3D. 02:53:44 so what is it? 02:53:49 I've tried to do this before, but we wound up with a bunch of left triangle bullshit. I'm hoping to avoid that this time 02:54:24 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 02:55:13 izabera: A dimension is, essentially, a series of (n-1)-dimensional spaces (where n is the number of dimensions in question) along a line that is positioned a right angle to all other dimensions 02:55:15 I guess? 02:56:24 you're using the word you're defining in the definition 02:56:40 and a bunch of other undefined terms 02:56:47 izabera: It's recursively defined 02:56:49 xD 02:57:07 I guess I forgot a base case 02:57:17 Well 02:57:18 look, this has been done before 02:57:19 ^c 02:57:27 Of course it has been 02:57:40 It never comes out as elegant as traditional geometry, but it works 02:57:42 i suggest you to try to read some past work before trying to reinvent everything 02:57:53 Fair enough 02:57:55 what's not elegant? 02:58:16 People trying to invent their own geometry 02:58:29 I imagine it never makes much sense 02:58:36 -!- JesseH has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:58:36 But it still technically works 02:59:39 izabera: Do you know of any good sources I could go to to find papers on irregular axiomatic systems in geometry? 03:02:43 we had a course about this, it was called "introduction to mathematic thinking" 03:03:19 it was more of something that brings students from different schools to a common starting point 03:03:31 and they did stuff in hyperbolic geometry 03:03:40 Is there a English document of "Hina-Di" format? Right now I cannot find any English one nor is the Japanese one accessible 03:03:54 and euclid and proving simple theorems etc... 03:04:17 there's not real need to add buzzwords to make it sound complex because it really isn't 03:04:47 s/not/no/ 03:05:04 you define your set of rules, then play according to them 03:06:37 there's something called taxicab geometry, it's basically discrete geometry 03:07:29 the fun thing is that squares are also circles and the diagonal of a square is 2x its side, etc... 03:10:50 Is it possible to make CSS rules that select based on other CSS rules? I want to make a rule that selects on "text-decoration: blink" and animates such elements. I also want to disable all CSS animations that I have not defined myself 03:15:09 -!- Froox has joined. 03:16:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:18:46 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:20:47 <\oren\> zzo38: I don't think so 03:21:11 I would also want to be able to selectively disable other kind of CSS rules 03:21:11 <\oren\> I think you can look for css with a user script and then replace it with other css though 03:23:43 <\oren\> Anyway, I finally figured out the full incantations and rituals necessary to convert a .bdf font into a .otf font with no blurriness or rounded edges 03:24:11 what does it mean to release a font? 03:24:24 i mean what happens then? you stop improving it? 03:24:43 <\oren\> It means I upload that version to my sebsite 03:25:00 <\oren\> I will keep working on it until I get tired of doing so 03:25:10 -!- Froox has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 03:25:11 <\oren\> s/sebsite/website/ 03:40:05 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:45:33 <\oren\> ⦀⦁⦂⦃⦄⦅⦆⦇⦈⦉⦊⦋⦌⦍⦎⦏⦐⦑⦒⦓⦔⦕⦖⦗⦘⦙⦚ 03:58:43 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 04:04:30 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:36:07 What other programming languages does OASYS Assembler resemble? I invented a program "OASYS Assembler" for an existing VM but I do not know what other program language it can be said to resemble? It is stack-based but does not have such stack operations as DUP and DROP and SWAP and so on, and unlike Forth the variable address must be pushed first before the value is pushed 04:40:18 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 04:40:42 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:56:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:57:59 What would be a good way to implement a non-stateless lexer-building library/API? 04:58:05 Is it even possible? 04:58:21 I don't know how you meant exactly 05:00:06 zzo38: Well, to make a lexer is simple 05:00:48 You just go through the source, matching regexes at the beginning until you run out of code (and moving the "beginning" so it starts after the last token ends) 05:00:54 But then you encounter an issue: 05:01:03 x+(-y) 05:01:29 If you're lexing an arithmetical expression, you hit the issue where - can mean subtraction OR a negative number 05:01:46 I manage a small library that handles lexing for users in a simple way 05:01:58 But I don't know how to implement stated lexing 05:02:00 Any ideas? 05:02:25 You could do that after lexing I think? 05:02:45 Or else you must tell what it is based on the previous token 05:03:52 Ah 05:03:54 That might work 05:07:25 -!- Frooxius has joined. 05:23:08 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:43:27 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:59:31 Ugh 05:59:47 Python isn't recognizing the λ character in my regexes OR as a print function 06:00:12 And I've tried the obvious workarounds (making python unicode, using chr(0x03BB), etc) 06:01:14 -!- x10A94 has joined. 06:13:38 -!- JesseH has joined. 06:32:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:33:10 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:44:20 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:47:00 -!- bender| has joined. 06:47:00 -!- bender| has quit (Changing host). 06:47:00 -!- bender| has joined. 07:02:17 -!- aretecode has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:02:18 I would like to see the concept of "even" and "odd" expanded to the Complex Numbers 07:02:43 Or at least the ones where a and b are integers (I forgot their name) 07:04:52 <\oren\> so tl;dr of the whole font fiasco: it is apparently very hard to turn a bitmap into a bunch of straight lines forming a square around each pixel. And, once you've done that, Microsoft Cleartype can't handle turning a square one pixel on a side into one pixel, so you have to include a bitmap showing it how to do it. 07:06:07 <\oren\> Am I like, the only person on earth who wants to have a method to do raster -> vector -> raster losslessly? 07:09:09 -!- sc00fy has joined. 07:13:13 <\oren\> On the bright side, I now have Hiragana: むめもゃやゅゆょよらりるれろゎわゐゑをんゔ 07:14:33 well, OCR is still considered hard 07:14:42 especially with low resolution or high noise 07:15:30 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:21:48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfBBVIoW-68&feature=youtu.be 07:26:16 I would rather you just used bitmap fonts directly though 07:26:39 Therefore you don't need to do raster->vector->raster 07:27:06 <\oren\> It would be nice if windows supported that but it doesn't 07:28:21 I think Windows does support bitmap fonts, last time I checked it can but it uses its own format that is not compatible with UNIX 07:29:37 <\oren\> In particular, I can't seem to create a .fon file with unicode in it 07:30:11 Maybe that format doesn't support Unicode; you need to use your own encodings 07:30:20 Another thing to try is turn off Cleartype 07:34:38 <\oren\> zzo38: I've actually figured out mostly a solution for this problem. 07:34:53 <\oren\> but the fact that it is necessary at all is stupid 07:36:45 \oren\: oh! so will you add four thousand kanji too? 07:37:05 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:37:17 \oren\: or ten thousand korean syllables. that's probably easier to generate. 07:38:21 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/bdf2otf.htm 07:38:49 <\oren\> that's the convoluted process. I've put it online so I can remember it after I finish drawing katakana 07:40:59 <\oren\> I plan on doing at least the 2000 Joyo kanji eventually 07:43:19 <\oren\> b_jonas: I don't plan on doing korean unless I can figure out ow to automate it 07:51:10 \oren\: um, why couldn't you automate it? they're made of letters you just have to paste together. 07:51:35 oh, 2000 kanji plus extras? wow, great 07:52:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:52:57 don't forget the common punctuation for Japanese too, like the full stop, comma, quotation marks, etc 07:55:01 <\oren\> good point 07:56:17 luckily there's not many of them, and they're relatively easy to draw 07:56:22 <\oren\> so essentially I'll be working up to it being a viable alternative to GNU unifont that isn't fuck-ugly 07:56:44 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 07:57:01 <\oren\> Hij_arcane! 08:00:00 argh, I can't see the font because of some caching stuff 08:00:50 <\oren\> try refreshing a bunch oif times 08:00:57 I'm trying, yes 08:01:12 it could be a client-side problem 08:03:10 wait, glagolitic? seriously? what next, will you be adding old phoenician? 08:03:27 I still don't see the font though 08:04:16 <\oren\> Oh, I think the problem may be that only new versions of firefox have support for the css I'm using 08:04:59 <\oren\> I'll make a second one with different css 08:05:01 \oren\: yes, maybe the problem is that the browser won't show this type of font from the web 08:05:07 what? why a second one? 08:05:10 put both of them into the same css 08:05:15 so they fall back 08:05:21 seriously, web development best practice 08:05:27 you don't make different versions for different browsers 08:06:39 you can put multiple fallback font names to the font-face property 08:06:45 <\oren\> How is this? 08:06:50 <\oren\> I just changed it 08:07:41 can't see it yet, but I suspect a client-side problem 08:07:48 <\oren\> I think newer versions of firefox require url("blah") format(opentype) 08:08:14 why would they do that? 08:09:07 <\oren\> I dunno but it wasn;'t working on my win7 firefox withou ti 08:09:08 let me try with Chrome 08:10:03 I can't get it to work, argh 08:10:09 I'll try at home 08:10:18 Aaaah I think I've found an error in a maths book 08:10:24 thanks anyway 08:10:25 What do I do now 08:10:45 Taneb: check existing errata, if it's not there, file bug report 08:11:11 Taneb: sadly, lots of publishers don't care an ounce about supporting their already sold books with errata, 08:11:14 but a few are better. 08:11:15 I cannot find any errata 08:11:44 (The Foundation of Mathematics by Ian Stewart and David Tall, Second Edition, Oxford University Press) 08:12:45 Taneb: look at the beginning and end of the book for possible instructions on where to report bugs, failing that, just write to the publisher. you may want to buffer bug reports and send all ones for the same book together though. 08:13:39 b_jonas: cannot find anywhere to report bugs 08:13:44 The publisher over the authors? 08:13:54 And I'm a slow and easily distracted reader 08:18:01 Taneb: I'm not sure. If you know the authors in person, it's better to send to them. Otherwise, I'm not sure. 08:18:15 I do not 08:18:20 Phantom_Hoover might 08:18:31 (he goes to the university where at least one of them teaches, I believe) 08:20:01 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:20:50 Does anyone else have a copy of this book to see if it is in fact an error? 08:21:21 Well, there are two errors I have seen on page 96 08:21:47 -!- FreeFull has joined. 08:21:58 I don't have that book. 08:22:19 You have read on a few pages, in case there's an explanation later, right? 08:23:13 It gives an example of a function "A = all subsets of {0,2,4}, B = N, f(x) = the smallest element of x" 08:23:22 This is not defined for x = {} 08:24:10 -!- JesseH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:24:20 It defines a function as "A function f from A to B is a rule that assigns to each a in A a unique element f(a) in B." 08:27:29 maybe they just forgot to include the word 'non-empty' :P 08:27:50 ashl: which is still an error! 08:30:29 The other error on the page is it defines the domain of the factorial function as the positive reals 08:30:52 what was the question? how to report an erratum? 08:31:00 Yes 08:31:15 Well, whether these are errors first 08:32:27 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:39:06 for the first one, yes; for the factorial one, depends how they define it 08:40:57 They don't define factorial, anywhere 08:45:49 well you can define factorial on the positive real numbers 08:46:15 but i expect they probably meant positive integers 08:54:21 -!- aretecode has joined. 08:58:39 -!- mauris has joined. 09:00:32 -!- heddwch has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:00:35 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:01:04 -!- heddwch has joined. 09:01:06 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:03:46 <\oren\> b_jonas: I think I'll start putting up image-based previews as well from now on 09:07:34 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.png 09:24:02 how do you know your representations are faithful 09:25:06 <\oren\> what representations? 09:28:05 <\oren\> I mean, this image is basically a screenshot of the page as it appears on my system 09:29:01 There's a sign on a fence I see on my commute that says "Danger" and "Deep excavations". I'm worried about a possible balrog threat. 09:31:29 did you for example grow up reading/writing the glagolitic writing system? if not, how do you know it is legible 09:31:52 <\oren\> The dark fire shall not avail you, Flame of Udûn! 09:33:24 <\oren\> ashl: Oh, for that one none still live who grew up writing it. Anyway most of the non-latin, non-Japanese letterforms are based on PDF's from the Unicode foundation 09:34:28 <\oren\> I only added glagolitic so that I would have the one tht looks like a dick. Ⰴ 09:36:10 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:36:49 -!- Patashu has joined. 09:40:17 \oren\: image! great, thanks 09:43:52 \oren\: for the C64, do you have the left and right diagonally shaded blocks? 09:44:04 the hiragana look nice, meanwhile 09:44:07 <\oren\> yah 09:45:15 <\oren\> uh, are they not there right above the hiragana? 09:45:58 \oren\: no, those are diagonal half blocks 09:46:34 <\oren\> oh I see. I'll add them 09:46:42 \oren\: I wonder what that third character in your C64 list is though 09:47:35 <\oren\> there is a character that looks like that in the c64 charset, not sure what it is supposed to be 09:47:41 \oren\: I think it's club suit 09:47:45 in the C64 set 09:47:57 -!- ashl has left ("WeeChat 0.3.8"). 09:47:58 there's also heart suit, diamond suit, and spade suit characters 09:48:05 but you already have those in the font 09:49:34 I presume you'll add fullwith katakana later 09:49:55 <\oren\> yah thats the very next thing 09:52:54 your script letters beyond t are interesting 09:53:12 rip the slant? 09:55:06 nice, the c64 font has the ugliest pi i've ever seen 10:01:10 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:06:38 mauris: give it a break, they have just an 8x8 cell 10:06:54 and that on bad quality CRTs where pixels are bleeding into one anothers 10:09:01 with an analog signal and all that 10:11:20 <\oren\> that explains the thick vertical strokes and thin hrizontal 10:14:06 -!- zadock has joined. 10:16:25 b_jonas: At least it's not doing the NTSC composite-signal artifact color thing. 10:17:07 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_artifact_colors that thing 10:18:59 -!- zadock has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:22:54 -!- boily has joined. 10:25:02 fizzie: what? the C64 is a color monitor, it does behave bad for some color combinations 10:25:44 well, if you have a color monitor that is 10:25:51 we've run it with black and green monitors 10:27:18 <\oren\> god did these people in the 80's even think about what an ASS this would be to write an emulator for? 10:27:33 \oren\: hehe... probably no 10:27:59