←2015-09-24 2015-09-25 2015-09-26→ ↑2015 ↑all
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00:17:12 <zzo38> No I was to make new kind of programming language for Magic: the Gathering, so not Python. If existing one is use then possibly Haskell, but I would think a new one so that the compiler can figure out what stuff can interfere and add all necessary checks in the proper places.
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00:18:16 <mauris_> http://puu.sh/kn5vc/737a29bddb.png help, i can't do proofs
00:19:54 <mauris_> what is that question mark trying to tell me
00:27:54 <doesthiswork> http://www.lefthandedtoons.com/1832/
00:32:38 <int-e> mauris_: it's not clear what y_5 is supposed to be.
00:36:32 <int-e> (from a slightly different perspective, there are two choices for P_5: P_5(x) = t_2(x), and P_5(x) = t_2(y_2))
00:42:44 <mauris_> ah
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01:05:38 <tswett> zzo38: could you give an example of "stuff that can interfere" and the necessary checks?
01:07:39 <zzo38> tswett: I think I gave a few examples above, but other examples can be text-editing effects, replacement effects, and other stuff. So the programming language must support the types of triggers, events, actions, overrides, replacements, etc. I thought to use extensible types for such things.
01:09:19 <zzo38> RDF represents the data as a directed graph and allows adding nodes/edges anywhere in the graph, so I thought to represent the program as a RDF graph; you can have multiple graphs combined together (with duplicate edges removed afterward) and then macro processed (using Macro-RDF, which is something else I invented), and then finally is compiled into Haskell codes or C codes or whatever
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01:11:41 <zzo38> There are a few similarities to rule-based and aspect-based programming too, but this is more of a declarative kind of system
01:11:45 <tswett> Magic cards definitely seem more code-like than data-like to me.
01:11:53 <tswett> Yeah, I can see why you'd want a specialized language.
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01:13:38 <zzo38> Yes it is more code-like than data-like, although depending on programming languages you can treat them in similar ways.
01:14:08 <tswett> I think a general-purpose programming language like Python, Haskell or C# would definitely do it, but a specialized language would do it more concisely.
01:14:12 <zzo38> I did show an example code above; what is your opinion of that one?
01:14:25 <zzo38> tswett: Yes, that is how I meant; a specialized language would do it better
01:16:21 <fowl> `wisdom
01:16:24 <HackEgo> cyberdrone/cyberdrone is a drone flying in cyberspace.
01:22:44 <tswett> A cyberspace is a space object in the category of cyber algebras.
01:23:07 <tswett> A cyberdrone is a drone object in the category of cyber algebras.
01:23:18 <tswett> A Pop Tart is a Tart object in the category of Pop algebras.
01:23:56 <tswett> A Tart object is an object object in the category of Tart algebras.
01:24:05 <tswett> An object object is an object object in the category of object algebras.
01:24:20 <tswett> An object algebra is an algebra object in the category of object algebras.
01:24:35 <tswett> An algebra object is an algebra object in the category of algebra algebras.
01:24:39 <tswett> You get the idea.
01:25:48 <tswett> A pepperoni pizza is a pizza object in the category of pepperoni algebras.
01:26:26 <shachaf> we got the idea a long time ago hth
01:32:29 <boily> fellowl. long time no see.
01:32:38 <boily> `wisdom
01:32:40 <HackEgo> unicide/Unicide is when people can't read your suicide note because they lack the proper font.
01:32:47 <boily> `wisdom
01:32:49 <HackEgo> indentity function/indentity function is the function that measures how indented source code is.
01:35:12 <boily> `wisdom
01:35:14 <HackEgo> welkom/Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.)
01:35:37 <shachaf> that message is out of date tdnh
01:35:47 <boily> it is?
01:36:00 <boily> mauris: care to certify the Dutchiness degree of that message?
01:36:28 <boily> (afair, you're Belgian and/or Netherlandsish.)
01:36:58 <shachaf> i didn't say it was out of dutch hth
01:38:21 <boily> datch, dute, date, dutch, it's the same concept observed differently.
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01:48:09 <izabera> http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/208516/can-tin-foil-hats-block-anything
01:49:04 <zzo38> Maybe a tin foil hat might block trying to see your hair
01:50:29 <izabera> you can pretend you're not bald
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01:51:30 <oerjan> `welcome
01:51:31 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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01:52:01 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/irc.dal.net/EFnet of DALnet/' wisdom/welkom; mv wisdom/wel{kom,come.nl}
01:52:05 <HackEgo> No output.
01:55:19 <fizzie> EFnet is now of DALnet?
02:07:25 <oerjan> `? welcome.nl
02:07:26 <HackEgo> Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op EFnet of DALnet.)
02:07:35 <oerjan> fizzie: only if you're dutch
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02:23:59 <blurelIse> copper mesh/net hats are much more effective
02:25:14 <blurelIse> so is slitting your wrists vertically, but hollywood likes to just portray things rather than give specific instructions ;)
02:29:18 <zzo38> If you are trying to block signals then yes copper mesh is probably much more effective
02:37:59 <blurelIse> if you were reallllly paranoid you could also go for teh 5 inch thick led hat
02:39:03 <blurelIse> **side effects may vary
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02:55:08 <oerjan> yay i made it past all the magic blathering
03:02:33 <zzo38> `danddreclist 68
03:02:34 <HackEgo> danddreclist 68: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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03:14:59 <blurelIse> Magic: the Blathering
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03:37:15 <hppavilion[1]> Does philosophy have axioms the same way mathematics does?
03:37:22 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. "I think, therefor I am"?
03:38:33 <blurelIse> "A = B(c), therefore A/B=c"
03:38:58 <hppavilion[1]> Or perhaps is there a philisopical notation that looks like math?
03:39:07 <zzo38> Only if you are being logical, I think? But sometimes in philosophy you must go beyond logic, otherwise who can tell the logic if it is good?
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03:40:31 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: It can depend on what you are writing about I think; in some cases symbolic logic helps but mostly you just have to write in other ways since there is no mathematical notation to explain it when you are using the notation alone without any text to explain it.
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03:45:53 <\oren\> Dwarf fortress dwarves are stupid
03:46:49 <\oren\> if you have a pond that is connected to another pond by a u-bend, they will try to fill one pond from the other
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03:48:41 <\oren\> in fact, if the u-bend is walkable, they will walk through the tunnel from one pond to the other, tryingto fill the pond with the water they are walking through. retards
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04:03:09 <Sgeo> My documentation output is being butchered
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05:06:46 <izabera> did you know that voldemort can't love because he was conceived under a love potion?
05:08:33 <zzo38> O, is that why? Is that what a love potion is for?
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05:09:15 <izabera> no a love potion is not supposed to produce monsters
05:10:00 <zzo38> I meant if it is used to prevent those conceived under it from loving
05:10:09 <izabera> no no
05:10:21 <izabera> why would you do that
05:11:04 <zzo38> I don't know why you such a thing would be done, unless it is a side-effect of something else
05:11:05 <izabera> his mother died and he was raised in an orphanage and was never loved
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05:11:41 <zzo38> But I thought you said he can't love because he was conceived under a love potion?
05:11:58 <zzo38> So which is it?
05:12:32 <izabera> there are several factors that contributed
05:12:36 <izabera> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/7/30/j-k-rowling-web-chat-transcript
05:12:40 <zzo38> That is what I thought.
05:50:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44386&oldid=44384 * Keymaker * (+414) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
05:52:24 <hppavilion[1]> ...x|y|z...
05:52:42 <hppavilion[1]> Mathematician's worst nightmare: Hambiguous notation
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06:52:48 <zzo38> The picture on this computer monitor is not visible when viewed from "REALD" 3-D glasses backwards and rotated 45 degrees.
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07:25:41 <myname> i like ham
07:32:59 <oerjan> ooh new xkcd whatif this week
07:33:17 <oerjan> myname: what about green eggs
07:33:52 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: the most undefined what-if conclusion so far
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08:39:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44387&oldid=44386 * Martin Büttner * (+366) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
08:41:07 * oerjan feels so efficient when closing monomorphism restriction questions as duplicates on SO
08:44:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44388&oldid=44387 * Martin Büttner * (+405) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
08:44:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44389&oldid=44388 * Martin Büttner * (-3) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
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10:02:31 <fizzie> "Hosting an intern is a big responsibility. Please ensure you’re prepared to commit the time and energy --" they're making that sound like having a pet.
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10:14:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44390&oldid=44389 * Keymaker * (+367) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
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10:48:39 <b_jonas> "photons in metric". Steve is crazy.
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12:01:05 <mroman_> guess that means my vserver is now gone :)
12:49:17 <mroman_> foo a b c q{trim(a +len(b) -len(c) q)}
12:49:30 <mroman_> neat :)
12:50:09 <mroman_> trim(a+len(b)-len(c)q) is trim(a,len(b)+(len(c)-q))
12:51:12 <mroman_> except it's way shorter
12:56:00 <coppro> fizzie: that's because it is
12:56:04 <myname> "way shorter"
12:56:56 <mroman_> a little bit shorter
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13:28:24 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/pAThBaWf <- my current WIP
13:50:16 <mroman_> fucking migraine
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13:50:30 <mroman_> migraine and cold together sucks even more
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14:41:37 <ais523> `unicode TRIANGLE
14:41:38 <HackEgo> U+20E4 COMBINING ENCLOSING UPWARD POINTING TRIANGLE \ UTF-8: e2 83 a4 UTF-16BE: 20e4 Decimal: &#8420; \ ⃤ \ Category: Me (Mark, Enclosing) \ Bidi: NSM (Non-Spacing Mark) \ \ U+22BF RIGHT TRIANGLE \ UTF-8: e2 8a bf UTF-16BE: 22bf Decimal: &#8895; \ ⊿ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ \ U+23
14:41:46 <ais523> `unicode EQUALS TRIANGLE
14:41:47 <HackEgo> No output.
14:41:49 <ais523> `unicode EQUALS.*TRIANGLE
14:41:50 <HackEgo> No output.
14:41:52 <ais523> `unicode EQUALS*TRIANGLE
14:41:53 <HackEgo> No output.
14:42:01 <ais523> `` unicode TRIANGLE | paste
14:42:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.16546
14:42:24 <ais523> `` unicode --max 100 TRIANGLE | paste
14:42:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.2465
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15:58:18 <tswett> So where'd blsqbot go?
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16:10:16 <ais523> so currently, Magic: the Gathering Online has a bug where the non-promo version of Relic Seeker works correctly, and the promo version has a bug
16:10:24 <ais523> and people are trying to figure out htf you mess that up that badly
16:10:47 <myname> good question
16:11:22 <myname> in theory, the promo info should just be a bool
16:11:38 <shachaf> Do they have un-cards in mtgo?
16:11:41 <ais523> shachaf: no
16:12:02 <ais523> myname: probably an enum, you can have multiple promo versions of a card
16:12:15 <myname> okay
16:12:28 <myname> still stupid
16:12:43 <shachaf> Are there any other occasions where a different version of a card has behaved differently?
16:13:21 <shachaf> What's the bug?
16:14:00 <ais523> shachaf: it wasn't specified on the MTGO known issues list, which is the source for this issue that I was linked to
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16:24:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44391&oldid=44251 * Martin Büttner * (+158) /* External Resources */ Add Hexagony Colorer
16:25:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44392&oldid=44391 * Martin Büttner * (+32) /* External Resources */
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16:52:09 <int-e> darn, I forgot how tedious to prove the beer drinker's paradox is with natural deduction in first order logic
16:54:27 <ais523> int-e: is that the "in any pub, there's some person for which if they drink, everyone drinks" theorem?
16:55:14 <int-e> ais523: yes
16:55:56 <int-e> http://incredible.nomeata.de/ has that as one of its examples; mauris was struggling with that 17 hours ago.
16:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought it was more like "in any pub there exists some person such that if they are drinking then everyone is drinking"
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16:59:11 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: that's the same
16:59:30 <ais523> right; my statement of the theorem is a little ambiguous, but traditional
16:59:39 * int-e may be missing the ambiguity.
16:59:46 <ais523> because it makes the statement seeming more implausible
16:59:55 <ais523> int-e: logical "if" versus causation "if"
17:00:21 <int-e> Oh, I guess I'm too much of a logician :P
17:00:37 <int-e> thanks
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17:03:14 <int-e> (I struggled for a while as well, but I got it in the end)
17:04:06 <gamemanj> what on earth is that weird madness of block diagrams
17:04:39 <gamemanj> to me it just looks like a graphical esolang
17:05:49 <int-e> it's a representation of formal proofs; basically you plug in proved statements as premises of other rules ...
17:06:55 <int-e> ... but there are some funny rules (for proving implications or case distinctions arising out of disjunctions in premises) that introduce new premises... those make it a bit tricky.
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18:16:17 <zzo38> How does that representations works, do you have example, and what funny rules involved?
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18:20:09 <shachaf> 19:44 <blurelIse> toyed with the idea of writing my own coding language before i found this room
18:20:12 <shachaf> 19:46 <@DarwinElf> I've thought about this, but this channel is about mysticism/esoterism/occultism, etc.
18:20:16 <shachaf> oerjan: efnet #esoteric hth
18:21:09 <shachaf> oh, blurelIse is here too
18:21:18 <shachaf> `welcome blurelIse
18:21:19 <HackEgo> blurelIse: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:21:30 <ais523> shachaf: huh, people go to the other #esoterics looking for us?
18:21:32 <ais523> I guess it makes sense
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18:34:45 <zzo38> Stuff such as CTRL+C and so on is not working properly in DOSBox
18:35:32 <shachaf> Not working properly to copy, or not working properly to cancel?
18:37:39 <zzo38> It doesn't cancel, it just prints a heart shape instead
18:38:05 <zzo38> This means some programs do not work properly due to this
18:38:30 <zzo38> (The graphic for CTRL+C in the PC character set is a heart shape.)
18:43:08 <gamemanj> Um, well, did DOS even do ctrl+c = break?
18:44:40 <zzo38> Yes
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18:48:59 <zzo38> DOSBox also does not support F3 and other stuff like that other than at the main command prompt, even though with some programs it is usable in a real DOS system
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19:01:45 <tswett> `unidecode ə
19:01:46 <HackEgo> ​[U+0259 LATIN SMALL LETTER SCHWA]
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19:40:56 <ais523> tswett: you have some experience with schwas, right?
19:40:58 <ais523> ə
19:41:01 <ais523> oh wow, it's on my compose key
19:41:09 <ais523> that seems like it might be potentially useful
19:41:49 <ais523> only potentially, though
19:41:57 <ais523> perhaps if we have a schwa-based esolang it'll make it easier to type
19:42:38 <tswett> Yeah. It's just that the character looked slightly weird in this font, so I was wondering if maybe it was some *other* schwa character.
19:42:47 <tswett> ais523: hey, do you have a good compose file for IPA?
19:43:00 <ais523> tswett: I'm using Ubuntu's default compose file, I think
19:43:18 <tswett> Does that actually let you type most characters in IPA?
19:43:19 <ais523> some symbols I want (such as Greek letters) are either missing or I can't figure out how to type them (or both, I guess)
19:43:25 <ais523> but it surprises me about what letters are there
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19:46:08 <tswett> Yeah, supposedly all I have to do is use the DEAD_GREEK key, but I don't know how I'm supposed to do that, given that my keyboard has no physical DEAD_GREEK key and I don't feel like mapping any physical key to that.
19:46:20 <ais523> I suggest altgr-capslock
19:46:26 <tswett> You'd hope I would be able to say that two other keys compose to DEAD_GREEK or something.
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19:51:54 <zzo38> I invented a "Customizer" prestige class for Dungeons&Dragons game, there is a menu of special features but I think that menu isn't quite right
19:54:09 <zzo38> Do you have suggestion of improvement?
19:55:53 <hppavilion[1]> I got my λ-calculuator working!
19:55:56 <hppavilion[1]> Whoo!
19:57:31 <ais523> I like the idea of a lambda calculator
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20:06:29 <zzo38> Class can be selected at minimum levels 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, etc. Skill points = 3 + Int mod; Class skills = all; Proficiencies = none; Base attack = zero; Base saves = zero; Hit points = d2; at each level you can also select one bonus feat.
20:09:05 <zzo38> How to make the improvement?
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20:15:49 <zzo38> I also had a menu of special features you can select from which include: +1 HP, +1 base attack, +1 to a single base save, +3 skills, etc but I think that isn't very good, now. Would it be improve reasonably to do like: Skill points is now 1 + Int mod, hit points is now d1, no special feature, but do you do get 2 bonus feats both of which must be different? Or is that too much or not enough or both?
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20:38:47 <hppavilion[1]> Woohoo!
20:38:53 <hppavilion[1]> I got Syntax Highlighting working!
20:39:00 <hppavilion[1]> AND saving files!
20:39:05 <hppavilion[1]> The only two bugs are:
20:39:11 <b_jonas> "only"?
20:39:19 <hppavilion[1]> Major, known
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20:39:29 <hppavilion[1]> Well, s/Major/substantial/
20:39:36 <hppavilion[1]> Three
20:39:36 <b_jonas> you know that "The only two bugs are" is a "famous last words" suspect sentence
20:40:07 <b_jonas> if you say that, you're calling the software against you and you'll soon meet a very severe bug that impacts everything
20:40:12 <hppavilion[1]> A) If I try to highlight named expression names (in expressions and in assignments), it highlights in comments, too
20:40:48 <hppavilion[1]> B) Until you resize the window, the execute widget bugs out strangely (weird resizing things, overflow, etc)
20:41:02 <hppavilion[1]> C) Can't actually do λ-calculus
20:41:26 <hppavilion[1]> (I haven't implemented anything more than a lexer yet)
20:41:32 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Great!
20:41:47 <hppavilion[1]> It's actually a part of a bigger open-source project called LIME
20:42:05 <hppavilion[1]> Which will, if all goes according to plan, be a general math helper
20:42:43 <hppavilion[1]> (Proof checking, autographer, etc.)
20:43:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Autographer meaning it graphs algebraic and geometric things)
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20:44:56 <hppavilion[1]> How should I handle multi-part expressions?
20:45:15 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps by allowing named expressions to include subscripts and *s?
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20:47:32 <hppavilion[1]> There
20:47:55 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of JUST single-character names, you can also do N[#] and N*
20:48:37 <zzo38> O, so the software is not complete if cannot currently even do a lambda-calculus at all!
20:51:15 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It isn't complete. Did I say it was?
20:51:43 <hppavilion[1]> I just started it a few days ago, INCLUDING the part where I learn about λ-calculus
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21:05:18 <zzo38> But you said you got it working?
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21:12:29 <zzo38> I have figured out that the visibility of different displays is affected differently by "REALD" glasses, and that it also depends on rotation, forward/backward, and/or which lens is used, depending on the display. What properties of a display can be determined using this?
21:17:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: REALD glasses are of what sort? color filter, polarized, or synchronized flashing/
21:17:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, what types of displays? colored TFT?
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21:30:35 <hppavilion[1]> There
21:30:58 <zzo38> I think I have heard that they are circular polarized, but I am not completely sure. I do not know what type of display (I cannot find the manual right now), and there are more than one as they are different types of displays perhaps. I want to know if REALD glasses would be able to be use to figure out what kind of display in this way.
21:31:22 <hppavilion[1]> I have all the combinator birds from To Mock a Mockingbird copied into a file for my λ-calculator.
21:31:33 <hppavilion[1]> Because this is the new Combinatory Logic Playground
21:32:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: When I said I got it working I really just meant the GUI. I currently have (partial) syntax highlighting and a half-complete menubar (File works except for exit, not Edit)
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21:35:32 <hppavilion[1]> λ-calculus shouldn't be /too/ hard to implement. I mean, it can be described as "the smallest universal programming language" AND it is represented in 3 lines of BNF (though I will be adding some extra stuff for simplicity in usage)
21:37:14 <hppavilion[1]> I might add an "Advanced" λ-calculus mode that does IO and things
21:37:15 <hppavilion[1]> Should I?
21:37:20 <hppavilion[1]> Possibly in another window xD
21:37:30 <hppavilion[1]> s/window/program/
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21:58:03 <Bjarne_> Hello
21:59:37 <ais523> hello
21:59:44 <Bjarne_> How goes everything?
22:00:09 <ais523> I was working on Underlambda, but haven't got much done recently
22:00:16 <ais523> other than much of the spec having stabilized
22:00:30 <ais523> I'm really happy with the use of - for extracting list elements
22:00:42 <Bjarne_> nice
22:00:50 <Bjarne_> I've not been doing much lately
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22:07:33 <int-e> mauris: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/beer-drinkers-paradox.svg is the simplest proof of the incredible proof machine example you worked on yesterday that I was able to come up with
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22:13:00 <Bjarne_> well now it's really quiet
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22:21:39 <mauris> int-e: that looks ridiculously complicated
22:21:56 <mauris> i expected it to be simple because it was the first one with quantifiers
22:22:09 <shachaf> int-e: could you import nonfree in lambdabot twh
22:23:36 <shachaf> Wait, you need two TNDs for that proof?
22:26:54 <int-e> it's possible that I'm doing something stupid, but yeah I did.
22:28:13 <int-e> one comes from converting from not exists P to forall not P, the other is the case distinction whether there is a non-drinker or not
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22:30:52 <hppavilion[1]> Hellu
22:32:30 <int-e> err, the first (which really is the second...) converts not exists not P to forall P
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22:57:31 <shachaf> int-e: Ah.
22:57:36 <zzo38> How do I make a protocol handler in Firefox that would require a HTTP proxy to be used to access the data (for example if you write "x-whatever://example.org:123/this" then it send "GET x-whatever://example.org:123/this HTTP/1.1" to the proxy server)?
22:58:15 -!- grotewold has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
22:58:41 <shachaf> I don't know about protocol handlers in Firefox, but you can configure proxies for URLs in general with a JavaScript function.
22:59:20 <zzo38> I know that, but I want to force it to use a HTTP proxy
23:00:41 <zzo38> And ignore any other proxy handlers
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23:12:10 <hppavilion[1]> So here's a type of cryptography I'd like to see someone talk about that probably is already a thing
23:12:14 <hppavilion[1]> Executable Encryption
23:12:29 <hppavilion[1]> (Not the same as an Encrypted Executable File, but could be connected)
23:12:46 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: is that like homomorphic encryption? or weaker?
23:13:59 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Basically, here's an idea:
23:14:02 <hppavilion[1]> BrainCryp
23:14:03 <hppavilion[1]> t
23:14:15 <hppavilion[1]> (Not a very secure example, but still an example)
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23:14:59 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, you have an algorithm that converts a simple message into a brainfuck program that produces that message
23:15:35 <hppavilion[1]> But not by a key, instead by some convoluted algorithm that uses every hack and shortcut imaginable that can be performed automatically
23:16:07 <hppavilion[1]> Then, you just transmit the message, and you decrypt it using your standard BF interpreter (that complies with the encryptor's desired interpreter)
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23:17:18 <hppavilion[1]> Even better: Interactive/Protected Executable Encryption (IPEE xD). You do all that, BUT you also require a password to be entered that takes advantage of yet more hacks and shortcuts
23:17:25 <b_jonas> Um, and that would be good why, besides obscuring email addresses with javascript in HTML pages? I don't think that would be a good idea for cryptography.
23:17:25 <\oren\> hppello!
23:18:11 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, you encrypt a message by writing a program that hacks another program that accepts a password
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23:18:24 <\oren\> b_jello!
23:18:43 <hppavilion[1]> It isn't good for normal cryptography, BUT you WOULD also encrypt it using a /secondary/ algorithm.
23:18:56 <hppavilion[1]> That way, even when they crack the message, they can't tell that they did because of the plaintext
23:19:10 <hppavilion[1]> (The secondary algorithm should probably always generate valid BF)
23:20:09 <hppavilion[1]> And make the program generated REALLY inefficient, so they have to spend longer debraincrypting it.
23:20:19 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: What do you think of /that/?
23:20:35 <b_jonas> I don't get the point really.
23:20:57 <hppavilion[1]> Well it's... well... it's an example
23:22:08 <hppavilion[1]> Programmatic Encryption is a secondary encryption algorithm used to obscure the plaintext of an encrypted text, thus making it nigh-impossible to recognize when you've cracked it, barring running a pretty inefficient piece of code manually
23:22:25 <hppavilion[1]> *further obscure
23:22:43 <oerjan> int-e: eek, seffie?
23:24:49 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: A better example than braincrypt is to use an indefinite-dimensional (that is, have a .meta file declaring how many dimensions the program is) self-modifying (both the code itself AND the intepreter running it), highly-compact, interpreted language that is different for each message.
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23:25:22 <hppavilion[1]> Something that requires a computer that isn't mentally bound by the real world to even comprehend what's going on
23:25:28 <int-e> oerjan: if that's a GG reference I haven't seen it yet
23:25:39 <oerjan> int-e: that's why i tried to make it subtle
23:25:49 <hppavilion[1]> Which poses a problem for the programmer making it (which is why we have abstraction)
23:26:00 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: What do you think of the /better/ example?
23:26:24 <hppavilion[1]> I realize it'd be pretty hard (nigh-impossible) to write a program to generate that code, but...
23:27:17 <oerjan> maybe zeetha can give hoffman some dating tips
23:30:52 <oerjan> oh well, who knows whose side seffie is on, really. did we see her do anything hideously evil yet
23:30:55 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: The general idea is basically an encryption algorithm whose cyphertext is a TC language that can only be decrypted through execution
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23:32:13 <hppavilion[1]> Hi, adu!
23:32:32 <adu> hi
23:32:54 <hppavilion[1]> I'mt trying to get people talking about Executable Encryption (not as in encrypting an executable file)
23:33:13 <adu> what do you mean?
23:33:27 <hppavilion[1]> The general idea is basically an encryption algorithm whose cyphertext is a TC language that can only be decrypted through execution
23:33:49 <hppavilion[1]> "A better example than braincrypt is to use an indefinite-dimensional (that is, have a .meta file declaring how many dimensions the program is) self-modifying (both the code itself AND the intepreter running it), highly-compact, interpreted language that is different for each message."
23:33:50 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I hate that
23:33:55 * oerjan realizes even the foglios cannot spell hoffman\+ consistently
23:34:19 <hppavilion[1]> (Braincrypt is an algorithm that generates hacky brainfuck code)
23:34:22 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Why?
23:34:51 <adu> I especially hate it when it's a PDF or HTML documentation about some Windows component, and the only form M$ provides that documentation is as a self-extracting .exe file and I'm downloading it on a Mac, really pisses me off
23:35:41 <zzo38> Did you try using 7-Zip?
23:35:44 <adu> granted, there are differences between encryption and compression
23:35:58 <hppavilion[1]> Ah. You mean you hate encryption of executables?
23:36:14 <hppavilion[1]> Because I'm talking about something entirely unrelated (but possibly mixable)
23:36:18 <adu> I think I ended up using MacPorts to install Wine, which then ran the self-extractor
23:36:48 <adu> hppavilion[1]: now if you could somehow do it portably, then yes, I'm interested
23:37:34 <hppavilion[1]> Well it'd definitely be portable, because the language would be interpreted (as interpretation is actually BETTER at obfuscation in this case xD)
23:37:38 <hppavilion[1]> (I think)
23:38:02 <hppavilion[1]> And I'd write the initial interpreter and encoder in Python...
23:38:04 <hppavilion[1]> So...
23:38:14 <hppavilion[1]> Portability: OVAR 90- no.
23:38:18 <adu> yes, VMs usually add a layer of obfuscation by nature
23:38:47 <hppavilion[1]> Do they?
23:39:11 <adu> yeah, just try using gdb on any language that compiles to C
23:39:20 <hppavilion[1]> This language would basically be 16-dimensional Befunge with some Malebolgy components and a a lot of shortcuts
23:39:46 <hppavilion[1]> (16-dimensional because that's pretty much impossible for a human to visualize AND it's a power of 2)
23:40:37 <hppavilion[1]> *Malbolge
23:40:56 <adu> I like Befunge
23:41:02 <hppavilion[1]> I do too
23:41:07 <hppavilion[1]> It's in my top 5 esolang
23:41:07 <hppavilion[1]> s
23:41:14 <adu> I once wrote a Funge-98 interpreter in Perl
23:41:21 <hppavilion[1]> Whoa
23:41:23 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what's your top 4?
23:41:23 <hppavilion[1]> Was it complete?
23:41:29 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know
23:41:39 <hppavilion[1]> All I know is that Unlambda and Befunge are in it
23:41:42 <hppavilion[1]> *them
23:41:53 <adu> hppavilion[1]: it was complete in that I implemented the 8 brainfuck related commands, plus it was arbitrary-dimentional
23:42:06 <hppavilion[1]> Cool
23:42:14 <adu> I don't think I ever started on the module loading into uppercase letters
23:42:48 <hppavilion[1]> Huh
23:42:54 <adu> I spent a grand total of a week on it, so not "compliant"
23:42:54 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: my hunch is that the problem with making an encryption system by heaping on complexity is that it's too complicated to see that there are no shortcuts to _breaking_ it.
23:43:03 <adu> but it was complete enough for me
23:43:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: True, true.
23:43:23 <hppavilion[1]> It's more of a thought experiment than anything else
23:43:40 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Well this language would be convoluted, complex, and generally just cryworthy.
23:44:57 <adu> I don't think Befunge was ever cryworthy, I think it's a beautiful language
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23:46:20 <adu> it compressed simple fundamental operations into the smallest unit that's useful in text editors: a byte
23:46:28 <hppavilion[1]> I didn't say befunge was.
23:46:45 <hppavilion[1]> I imagine EBDIC was useful at the time
23:47:24 <adu> I think most programming language are a waste of time
23:48:02 <hppavilion[1]> Probably. Some are useful thouh.
23:48:10 <adu> Rust I think is on the right track, their standards process early on decided that no keyword could be longer than 5 characters.
23:48:13 <hppavilion[1]> And some esolangs even serve their purposes
23:48:23 <hppavilion[1]> Interesting
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23:48:28 <oerjan> int-e: hm why _wouldn't_ martellus assume agatha has the book, he knows they were in the same spot after all...
23:48:51 <int-e> too many unknowns, but I don't get "seffie"
23:49:04 <oerjan> xerxsephnia's nickname
23:50:23 <int-e> it's been a while, hasn't it...
23:50:43 <oerjan> they _did_ meet her when they arrived in paris
23:53:27 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I think the only exception is "continue"
23:53:59 <oerjan> http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20150605
23:54:06 <hppavilion[1]> Huh.
23:55:32 <int-e> oh well, that was almost 4 months ago...
23:55:59 <oerjan> those pesky time flies
23:56:06 <int-e> (I'm ready to forgive myself for having forgotten :P)
23:56:40 <int-e> anyway... good night, I think.
23:57:18 <oerjan> good night
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