< 1443744031 226171 :\oren\!~oren@65.94.102.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it normal to forget to leave work when work is over? < 1443744079 424691 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly your employer has an incentive to make it normal hth < 1443744129 845508 :\oren\!~oren@65.94.102.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I mean I was programming and eating a cupcake < 1443744146 826931 :\oren\!~oren@65.94.102.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I realized it was 7:00 pm < 1443744158 599903 :MDude!~fyrc@c-73-175-58-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It took that long to eat a cupcake? < 1443744166 916767 :\oren\!~oren@65.94.102.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no < 1443744178 124499 :MDude!~fyrc@c-73-175-58-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to call yourself the savorator. < 1443744178 302488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: for me, yes < 1443744188 812188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 1am now < 1443744190 861034 :\oren\!~oren@65.94.102.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was eating a cupcake when I realized < 1443744200 727691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where am I going to be able to find somewhere to eat at 1am < 1443744205 588727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and do they sell cupcakes?) < 1443744214 909339 :MDude!~fyrc@c-73-175-58-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What area? < 1443744233 475538 :\oren\!~oren@65.94.102.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :try a breakfast joint that the night-shifters go to. < 1443744235 805483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :selly oak, which is cheating a bit < 1443744241 657793 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's full of shops which don't close until 3 or so < 1443744256 17829 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then a different subset of shops open at 7am or so < 1443744268 528441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so although it's not technically a 24:7 place it is open quite a lot of the time < 1443744289 902882 :doesthiswork!~Adium@71-20-42-132.war.clearwire-wmx.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1443744292 960934 :\oren\!~oren@65.94.102.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know a breakfast place that opens at midnight and is open until 2 pm < 1443744314 532077 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: what do you think of smoke's poutinerie twh < 1443744333 187275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: I don't think that's common in the UK < 1443744347 798088 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember I was at a motorway service station, which has a legal requirement to sell hot food, at 2am < 1443744360 847884 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hm, well Scheme-ω is kind of the fixpoint of derivatives of Scheme, but it's not exactly a derivative "of itself" < 1443744371 390880 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they met their requirement via the use of a relatively small KFC with one employee who would cook KFC things to order, and a computer to take the orders < 1443744375 267781 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/the fixpoint/a fixpoint/ < 1443744440 156373 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :A language that is literally a derivative of itself probably doesn't make sense, or at least I don't see how that would work < 1443744465 864965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: well, "BF but with , and . swapped" is a BF derivative (and, sadly, it probably already exists) < 1443744484 86426 :\oren\!~oren@65.94.102.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like smokes poutinery but it isn't open at 5am < 1443744486 481422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the language were a self-derivative, that sort of description would imply that , and . did the same thing < 1443744496 747587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't very interesting by itself, but you could make it more complex < 1443744501 145561 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess < 1443744503 357830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a is like b, but with a stack instead of a queue" < 1443744513 840631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :keep working like this and you might be able to build up a language purely self-referentially < 1443744544 731905 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed points are great < 1443744555 496252 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nu is the greatest fixed point < 1443744640 490501 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all fixed points are great though, some are small < 1443744704 604 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's fixed points, does that mean there is also broken points? < 1443744706 164334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, ideally there'd only be one fixed point, or maybe two < 1443744712 689830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I guess you'd have to go for the least fixed point < 1443744721 872014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to prevent people adding in extra commands that are entirely unmentioned < 1443744909 943401 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The greatest fixed point might be more interesting. < 1443745073 673857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't it contain infinitely many commands, that aren't uniquely defined? < 1443745273 511235 :Wright!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1443745559 446033 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1443745684 164376 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if there is only one greatest fixed point, then the language is necessarily uniquely defined. < 1443745705 536243 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1443745728 299686 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There might not be a greatest fixed point, of course. There might also not be a least fixed point. < 1443745748 489345 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there being a least fixed point is more likely, though < 1443745774 630737 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the ordering here? < 1443745999 363806 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :amount of stuff < 1443746107 842378 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: I mean what is the form for defining a Ring < 1443746140 189296 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like defining a variable is =(|) < 1443746159 320349 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's not a very good example because, I presume, rings are represented as variables < 1443746167 152985 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, why wouldn't they be < 1443746169 255186 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1443746219 302417 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, isn't a variable more of a map than a set? < 1443746268 699295 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1443746321 394313 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :a variable is a syntactic thing, it represents a map or a set or whatever else you happen to be talking about < 1443746369 991575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I was talking about the set of all variable names in a program being syntactically a set < 1443746376 385585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think hppavilion[1] is trying to elaborate on that < 1443746452 297661 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh oops < 1443746621 396266 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What weird data structures could we use to represent variables? < 1443746623 867843 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1443746628 79299 :\oren\!~oren@65.94.102.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a 'variable' has different meanings depending on the language < 1443746638 553795 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Normal variables. < 1443746661 396573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: assignable variables < 1443746666 428626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1443746670 4359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant lambda variables < 1443746676 865049 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually it's a Map, rarely it's as stack, in some Esolangs it's a pointer-based thing, but what about something truly strange? < 1443746679 247762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to translate from hppavilion[1] into mathematical syntax < 1443746681 393226 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Priority Queue perhaps? < 1443746683 685824 :\oren\!~oren@65.94.102.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see those are digfferent < 1443746685 962243 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hadn't noticed e'd said the wrong thing < 1443746695 802682 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: definitely < 1443746726 908056 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are "Normal Variables" a reserved, named thing? < 1443746739 548807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: food (it's only 1:45am or so, somewhere's got to still be open right?) < 1443746823 264428 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\? < 1443746831 811509 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais is gone, so I have to ask you < 1443746875 521631 :\oren\!~oren@65.94.102.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno < 1443746879 975390 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1443746901 658141 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is Priority Queue weird enough of a DS for data storage in a language? < 1443746906 703330 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe multimap < 1443746917 43912 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or symetrical map (or whatever that thing's called) < 1443746926 5594 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actaully, that seems pretty cool < 1443746937 597328 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OrderedDict might be good < 1443747168 803662 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Priority-Ordered-Stacky-Symetrical-Multimap-based variables < 1443747174 371869 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT'S an idea < 1443747700 442931 :doesthiswork!~Adium@71-20-42-132.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :content addressable < 1443748096 606067 :doesthiswork!~Adium@71-20-42-132.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sequence of progressively more general data structures goes from location addressable like array, list, queue, stack, to name addressable like dictionary to content addressable like prolog or sql < 1443748140 487846 :doesthiswork!~Adium@71-20-42-132.war.clearwire-wmx.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps you have no variables, only types. So if you want to store a value you have to define a unique type for it < 1443749218 38517 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1443749240 861464 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ds01-214-177.dynamic.mtsallstream.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1443751478 591680 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1443752006 447773 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1443757644 446405 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1443758542 447044 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1443758719 301011 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1443761055 139472 :Wright!~Wright@c-98-225-44-92.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1443761889 526713 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@ip-78-102-58-167.net.upcbroadband.cz QUIT :Quit: *bubbles away* < 1443762928 130217 :doesthiswork!~Adium@71-20-42-132.war.clearwire-wmx.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1443763106 819124 :augur!~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1443765075 341368 :aretecode!~aretecode@50.23.131.206-static.reverse.softlayer.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1443765118 585900 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-219-36.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1443765157 447482 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1443765729 312444 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1443765908 18532 :MDude!~fyrc@c-73-175-58-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDream < 1443766180 450471 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@133-171-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1443766573 126753 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@2620:101:f000:3006:1::894 JOIN :#esoteric < 1443766706 80444 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1443766871 826928 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be QUIT :Client Quit < 1443767287 828730 :sc00fy!~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1443767713 507697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1443768519 103291 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@2620:101:f000:3006:1::894 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1443768550 322819 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@rn-nat-129-97-131-0.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1443770360 891135 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@rn-nat-129-97-131-0.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1443770523 974630 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1443771830 588219 :^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1443771947 585522 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Unreadable14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44574&oldid=44106 5* 03Timwi 5* (+0) 10 < 1443773447 301574 :augur!~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1443773510 90706 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 JOIN :#esoteric < 1443773524 425868 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could somebody somehow reset my esowiki password? < 1443773687 979916 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(My nick on there is Feuermonster :) ) < 1443773730 514768 :zadock!~outsider@cthulhu.tuiasi.ro JOIN :#esoteric < 1443773905 932878 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1443773908 831049 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in today's world < 1443773919 835636 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What exactly is the difference between a debate, a discussion and a shitstorm? < 1443773931 993760 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm loosing track of all those terms. < 1443773990 791899 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd say debates are discussions wuth certain rules and shitstorms are in no way about dialogs < 1443774056 167698 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait. Shitstorm although an english word, isn't used in the english language. < 1443774070 8482 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like we use oldtimer and mobbing :) < 1443774080 254703 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't matter to me < 1443774106 728349 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"shitstorm" is kinda the german word for flamewar < 1443774108 966666 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1443774114 526698 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1443774128 331147 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1443774131 98530 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're the german guy? < 1443774137 261187 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am < 1443774140 587235 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha :) < 1443774143 519964 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot. < 1443774271 535112 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like "Lulu" gets some competition. < 1443774349 230896 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is so funny. < 1443774379 538327 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everybody is scared of a "surveillance state" < 1443774405 19153 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but somehow it's ok to have a "surveillance society" < 1443774412 970291 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as long as it's not the state doing the actual surveillance. < 1443774636 460635 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1443775642 851083 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1443776006 15445 :JesseH!~JesseH@oftn/member/JesseH JOIN :#esoteric < 1443776036 697316 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1443776430 127180 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1443776437 254778 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1443776437 432838 :heddwch!heddwch@76.8.3.189 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1443776470 428324 :heddwch!heddwch@76.8.3.189 JOIN :#esoteric < 1443776682 996062 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au QUIT :Client Quit < 1443776706 871308 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly JOIN :#esoteric < 1443776760 659968 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1443777150 780126 :Tod-Autojoined!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1443777330 922837 :tromp!~tromp@rtc35-217.rentec.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1443777378 69453 :Sprocklem_!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1443777404 307781 :Tefaj!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1443777443 742400 :ski____!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1443777456 646060 :coppro_!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1443777470 47563 :TodPunk!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1443777470 47655 :tromp__!~tromp@rtc35-217.rentec.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1443777470 47668 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1443777470 225865 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1443777470 225945 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1443777470 225961 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1443780042 787527 :ski____!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se NICK :ski < 1443780163 335216 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-092-072-164-249.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: Terminated < 1443780197 565121 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm GG is fairly early < 1443780297 755536 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-092-072-164-249.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1443780663 390417 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1443780673 547825 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaargh! too many characters. < 1443780691 188247 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least colette might not be betraying them < 1443780769 262313 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and gil will go to paris < 1443780825 194783 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, i don't think grandma has shown up before < 1443780870 937370 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I had trouble recognizing Seffie. < 1443780910 285227 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm she may be a bit indistinct < 1443780940 448634 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll be easier next time now that I've realized that she has Martellus' hair color. < 1443780958 151290 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do tend to in that family < 1443781168 400963 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm marg{olott,arell}a didn't. < 1443781407 693484 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm neither does lord selnikov < 1443781975 738637 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Blank14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44575&oldid=34583 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+421) 10read the interpreter < 1443782178 332662 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Blank14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44576&oldid=44575 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+13) 10/* Input/output */ < 1443783192 883444 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Status: !? Tool Failure". < 1443783194 1095 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know my test failed, but that's no reason to call me a tool. < 1443783217 237689 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:Help, WarDoq!14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44577&oldid=44098 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+249) 10/* Fail. */ < 1443783304 375121 :bender|!~benderx2@unaffiliated/bender/x-9459530 JOIN :#esoteric < 1443783708 700137 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a “!? Tool”? < 1443783731 759409 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1443783743 187005 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it punctuates your speech < 1443784166 477527 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07PHL 1.014]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44578&oldid=40992 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-13) 10/* External resources */ < 1443784295 777188 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1443784516 579106 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: The [!?] part was the symbol. < 1443784547 370682 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's F when failed, a checkmark when passed, a % when flaky, and probably there are some others too. < 1443784554 232716 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In addition to the !? tool failure. < 1443784857 584974 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1443784878 581203 :Patashu!SnowAgumon@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1443784997 971411 :Patashu!SnowAgumon@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Client Quit < 1443785005 576205 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1443785299 334534 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1443785474 553641 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: PLATE CHICKEN < 1443785872 200068 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1443785883 704284 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1443787139 735873 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1443787217 882951 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1443787252 377698 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1443787606 515256 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-219-36.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1443787749 394001 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu JOIN :#esoteric < 1443788983 851187 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1443789229 371231 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1443789493 668348 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1443789642 435872 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you peeps mind if I quickly poll you on something? I'm currently developing a 3D image-based funge-like language that utilizes a growable/shrinkable ringbuffer containing stacks as memory that supports self-modification and brainfork style concurrency. Does that sound interesting? and what sort of features would you expect? Thanks (y) < 1443789679 543647 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3d image-based? < 1443789708 994833 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in the source code is in an animated imge, such as a gif, and the execution path moves in 3 dimentions through it. < 1443789731 204692 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, 3D piet < 1443789760 168237 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that's nice, but i am.not sure how much that limits the number of operations < 1443789768 665459 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: write an ide :p < 1443789795 311884 :augur!~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1443789822 128487 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm limiting it to 256 commands, and I definitely am looking at a basic IDE for it cause colours will be confusing enough XD < 1443790021 553126 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, 255 and a noop XD < 1443790116 731630 :augur!~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1443790298 952962 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a fast check to determine if a number is a fibonacci number? < 1443790322 348177 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt it < 1443790340 413838 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fibonacci numbers aren't that special < 1443790438 710427 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparentely if (5*n^2 +4) or (5*n^2 -4) is a perfect square, then n is a fibonacci number < 1443790509 350383 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Kinda. I guess if you can reverse this equation: http://www.maths.surrey.ac.uk/hosted-sites/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibFormula.html Then check if it's a whole number. < 1443790512 935066 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :derived from the closed-form expression for Fibonacci numbers? < 1443790530 418139 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean that 1/sqrt(5) thingy? < 1443790536 680785 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that requires arbitrary precision < 1443790544 54830 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I consider bad :) < 1443790559 804862 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair < 1443790560 26565 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahah, true. < 1443790567 151212 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(essentially it should work with bigints only) < 1443790625 240385 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also.. is there a way given F(n) to find F(n-1),F(n-2) easily? < 1443790642 169245 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tjat 1/sqrt(5) doesn't help < 1443790666 635443 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might want to use Fibonacci Numbers for cryptography < 1443790676 684032 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because every series with f(n) = f(n-1)+f(n-2) gets to 1/sqrt(5) < 1443790683 352118 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter where it starts < 1443790856 840392 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :If memory isn't an issue, you could always build a look-up table for the resonable range, and then calculate everything outside of it? < 1443790873 391530 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :calculate for* < 1443791340 526218 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1443791384 351932 :XorSwap!XorSwap@140.193.119.127 JOIN :#esoteric < 1443792503 589025 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1443792555 575614 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just bought the D&D 5th ed DM's guide < 1443792631 827120 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a completely off-topic topic, this danish "do it for mom" commercial is weird < 1443792675 879718 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb < 1443792683 224031 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover < 1443792685 136143 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're letting me teach first years this year < 1443792691 652140 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm scared < 1443792691 992653 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have fun < 1443792698 225849 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're letting me advertise to them < 1443792732 831172 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard first years are the most formable < 1443792733 587775 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1443792739 50496 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd better not screw this up! < 1443792787 759187 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tired of these noob java developers who don't now that you can prefix identifiers with a dollar sign to make it look like PHP. < 1443792792 800143 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*know < 1443792799 348476 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1443792909 819148 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shivers at the mention of php* XP < 1443792920 990851 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codepad.org/jRa64Wpr <- that's how the pros do it < 1443792939 105924 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol XD < 1443793197 238915 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1443793452 981505 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1443793665 510436 :coppro_!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca NICK :coppro < 1443794594 40784 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: one can also have an inner class, method and field on some object, all with the same name < 1443794602 441680 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :for even more confusion < 1443794945 869706 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1443795166 459145 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may or may nto have done that before :| < 1443795235 936234 :XorSwap!XorSwap@140.193.119.127 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1443795251 566948 :XorSwap!XorSwap@140.193.119.127 JOIN :#esoteric < 1443795450 989614 :XorSwap!XorSwap@140.193.119.127 QUIT :Client Quit < 1443795558 695001 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1443795596 579486 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :$this = this hurts, and I don't mean the variable name. < 1443795739 444434 :bender|!~benderx2@unaffiliated/bender/x-9459530 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1443796432 979430 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT : < 1443796450 488924 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1443796715 69378 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: what? < 1443796893 46528 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... technically as of now I am a paid white-hat. < 1443797055 991784 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman_: this is implicitely passed to all class methods, so that $this serves no useful purpose. < 1443797083 218533 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :implicitly (this typo is way to persistent) < 1443797098 154795 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but $this is more PHP < 1443797109 813885 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all about the PHP. < 1443797114 830751 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The more PHP your code the better. < 1443797129 533651 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1443797137 594512 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1443797138 651516 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :do I know you? < 1443797163 891265 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally? < 1443797185 699516 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, rhetorically < 1443797201 42983 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then yes. < 1443797224 478492 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm Darkwing Duck. < 1443797253 567125 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :And i am Phantomias. < 1443797274 147384 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd kick your ass. < 1443797400 39088 :aretecode!~aretecode@50.23.131.206-static.reverse.softlayer.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1443797608 113153 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :parseString "+" <|> parseString "-" <|> parseString "*" <|> parseString "<" <|> parseString ">" < 1443797617 840822 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why's there no oneOf ["+","-"] < 1443797618 694963 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1443797857 465708 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there's choice < 1443798042 979867 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you somehow do -> in java to access object attributes or methods? ?D < 1443798136 406808 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ghndiuvmewobgchp JOIN :#esoteric < 1443798465 574016 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-219-36.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1443798716 25034 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: no < 1443798721 665920 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java isn't cool enough. < 1443798727 27731 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't have operator overloading < 1443798761 15105 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a huge bummer. < 1443798762 882460 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo. < 1443798766 519760 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like for BigInteger < 1443798776 166412 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo.add(bar).mul(baz) < 1443799405 793754 :MDream!~fyrc@c-73-175-58-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1443800028 41785 :mroman_!~mroman@160.85.232.158 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1443800293 739739 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1443800603 359717 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cough* Give D a look, it's pretty solid, it's my fav programming language at the moment. It's pretty much C meets Java. Still some things wrong with it, but it's pretty good! It has a GC, but if you feel like it you can actually use the c stdlib malloc/free and D's emplace to write non-gc code. < 1443800701 563080 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-206-90.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1443801265 421756 :MDude!~fyrc@c-73-175-58-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't < 1443801666 413838 :MDude!~fyrc@c-73-175-58-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly because I was just thinking of how I should probaly get back to learning assembly. < 1443802137 245679 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do people give their languages single character names still < 1443802249 74417 :zadock!~outsider@cthulhu.tuiasi.ro QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1443802312 693131 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :draghi: nah, rust! < 1443802331 726574 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1443802352 544149 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: I haven't actually given that a go yet, I keep meaning to XD < 1443802387 270366 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1443802412 137548 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :D is for C++ programmers who like C++ and Rust is for C++ prigrammers who hate C++ < 1443802441 305384 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1443802449 518388 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about Go < 1443802489 400445 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like C++ oddly enough XD < 1443802511 224546 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's what I code in mainly, but out of necessity. < 1443802544 941197 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favourite quote about go is "go is not a bad language. go is not a good language either" < 1443802554 193594 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried Go, I never got the hang of it. How's it GOing along? ah. ha. ha... < 1443802586 425346 :sc00fy!~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1443802720 713007 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gocis like "hey, let's make a new langiage but keep all that memory unsafety and null pointer errors" < 1443802847 404047 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also "Typing out interface names are too hard, so we threw that idea out." < 1443802865 200037 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I like go, it's interesting. < 1443803002 441424 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"also, who needs ADT anyways" < 1443803362 986528 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1443803428 146135 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1443803433 211234 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1443804007 736084 :aretecode!~aretecode@50.23.131.206-static.reverse.softlayer.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1443804154 235165 :aretecode!~aretecode@50.23.131.206-static.reverse.softlayer.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1443804421 288838 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1443804430 296081 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1443804784 711348 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1443805489 965271 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... < 1443805678 540281 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup... < 1443806226 875014 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1443806641 609355 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: Rebooting < 1443806801 696872 :^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1443806820 417017 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1443807039 287589 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1443807040 886587 :MoALTz!~no@78.11.179.104 JOIN :#esoteric < 1443807644 239641 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm off, catch ya'll later! (y) < 1443807669 40848 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> n < 1443807670 395800 :draghi!~draghi@CPE-1-122-225-63.wwl9.wel.bigpond.net.au QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1443807670 660973 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : n < 1443807747 188268 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1443808578 301626 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :-NickServ(NickServ@services.)- elliott is not registered. < 1443809374 615572 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION registers elliot < 1443809375 176046 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1443809383 882151 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, hmm < 1443809451 974047 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how does one define a ring in mathese? < 1443809494 329071 :Sprocklem_!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1443809545 20386 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a set R with binary operations +, * such that it's an abelian group under +, a monoid under * and + and * distribute < 1443809623 339222 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes, yes. I mean how does one write down a /specific/ ring? < 1443809641 749943 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :R = ??? < 1443809713 489687 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :R = {a}, a+a=a, a*a=a < 1443809715 654825 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :done < 1443809720 479916 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Ah? < 1443809734 477892 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :R is a set, any set < 1443809742 951605 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1443809747 724933 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can take, uh < 1443809755 54106 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :R = the integers < 1443809764 966928 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :and addition and multiplication as usual < 1443809787 992843 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is, in a meaningful sense, the simplest nontrivial ring < 1443809904 476744 :nortti!nortti@ayu.smar.moe NICK :perkele < 1443809947 239146 :perkele!nortti@ayu.smar.moe NICK :nortti < 1443810473 273764 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1443810577 293376 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1443810925 452789 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think usually it's defined as a five-tuple out of a set, two operations, and two identity elements (for the two operations, respectively)? < 1443810934 181679 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then of course those have to satisfy the axioms < 1443811040 117771 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I guess one really thinks of it as a set equipped with two operations with corresponding identity elements, rather than a 5-tuple < 1443811279 163884 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1443811878 105652 :MDude!~fyrc@c-73-175-58-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's an actual description of SGML? < 1443811888 383507 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1443811995 179853 :MDude!~fyrc@c-73-175-58-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it costs money because ISO' < 1443812555 17366 :MDude!~fyrc@c-73-175-58-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that's why so few people implemented it, not complexity. < 1443812560 596212 :MDude!~fyrc@c-73-175-58-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So XML probably wasn't needed. < 1443813290 559203 :MDude!~fyrc@c-73-175-58-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :THere's The SGML Handbook but the website for it is down? < 1443813899 798211 :^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1443814111 903488 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@37-219-206-90.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1443814314 539837 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-206-90.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1443814316 397170 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@37-219-206-90.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi NICK :J_Arcane < 1443814624 979134 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do ISO's specs cost money anyway? it's stupid. < 1443814639 856031 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially specs that ECMA have exact mirrors of, and those are free < 1443814721 957489 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1443814732 450027 :atrapado!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1443814882 795228 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, because ISO want to rip people off for profit and profit? < 1443814900 542521 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :over specifications, which to me sounds quite stupid < 1443814930 450213 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want a standard, you don't put it behind a paywall < 1443815000 586901 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ghndiuvmewobgchp QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1443815126 204134 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly < 1443816276 580438 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1443816301 113173 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought of a new arbitrary distinction we can make between esolangs < 1443816478 441643 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1443816520 636471 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monoesoteric and Polyesoteric < 1443816585 233690 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monoesoteric languages are otherwise normal programming languages with one strange feature, like in Call Queue. They're often more proofs-of-concepts and demonstrations than they are esolangs made for the sake of esolangs. < 1443816603 986368 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking catarenthiod and acatarenthioid < 1443816617 259643 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? < 1443816618 51498 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1443816629 90810 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :no your one sounds better < 1443816672 436560 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Polyesoteric are languages which mix a bunch of weird traits together, like INTERCAL < 1443816697 665651 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're easier to pull off because they're the product of just throwing a ton of weird shit into a blender and seeing the result < 1443816722 319493 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another distinction could be Whole-grain esoteric and processed esoteric < 1443816726 574948 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about languages with two strange features < 1443816786 951896 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: Those are polyesoteric. Though you /could/, if you /really/ wanted to, call them diesoteric. But that'd be stupid, like the concept of a distinction between First, Second, and Third-class citizens in programming < 1443816805 8894 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's first-class data or it isn't. There's no heirarchy. < 1443816806 679514 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have it < 1443816860 961622 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whole-grain esoteric are often purely made of esotericness, like Thue. Processed Esoteric only have a piece of esoteric mixed in with normal features, like Call Queue again. < 1443816885 913122 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/only have a piece/have pieces of esoteric < 1443816888 878489 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to inductively define the N-esoteric languages from the 0-esoteric languages and the S-esoteric function < 1443816900 330427 :astralfish!~blabla@cm-84.213.198.234.getinternet.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1443816907 25154 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1443816914 91519 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :then all you need to do is define limit esotericity and you have the entire vast sweep of the ordinal esoterics at your fingertips < 1443816926 797189 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. xD < 1443817205 820811 :gde33|2!kvirc@546A0B75.cm-12-3a.dynamic.ziggo.nl PART :#esoteric < 1443817274 205125 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: I'm afraid to ask, but what is a third-class citizen? < 1443817313 9315 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: It's an arbitrary distinction between different types of second-class citizen < 1443817348 576155 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2578872/about-first-second-and-third-class-value/2582804#2582804 < 1443817456 759453 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: If you want to see what the distinction is, scroll up on that link. < 1443817486 17705 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, sounds like a terribly vague distinction < 1443817490 25542 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides not to bother with it < 1443817591 731131 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Hppavilion1/Esolang Adjectives14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44579 5* 03Hppavilion1 5* (+1165) 10Created page (talking about monoesoteric and polyesoteric) < 1443817600 320250 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You shouldn't < 1443817694 480339 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the opposite of Minimalistic? < 1443817701 303926 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We need a fancy term to go on my page < 1443817712 787152 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Featureful isn't very good I think < 1443817842 324224 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :baroque < 1443817853 205597 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :maximalistic < 1443817969 929453 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1443818130 984073 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fancy < 1443818200 133128 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Hppavilion1/Esolang Adjectives14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44580&oldid=44579 5* 03Hppavilion1 5* (+1122) 10Added new adjectives < 1443818233 387000 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: Phantom_Hoover: Taneb: I went with Ornate, though I might change it to Baroque < 1443818243 129039 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I forgot to check back here) < 1443818267 817790 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you shouldn't take my advice seriously, my english sucks < 1443818465 545717 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: Baroque is actually a pretty interesting word for it, and seems to make sense in the concept of Esolangs < 1443818492 80305 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was traditionally used to describe a period of music, but then again, Esolangs are like music to some people. < 1443818497 624161 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially Fugue. < 1443818529 806612 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to see an Esolang that supports some simple GUI < 1443818586 20317 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BFGUI would be interesting < 1443818812 951339 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07GUI4BF14]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44581 5* 03Hppavilion1 5* (+310) 10Created Page (WIP) < 1443818845 814805 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... well, this is just plain convenient < 1443818853 691557 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is? < 1443818864 680523 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I have a good test case for this thing I was developing for unrelated reasons < 1443818874 949725 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How so? < 1443818878 353115 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm curious. < 1443818898 528172 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A sec... < 1443818923 233551 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/Flowcharter.png < 1443818988 386862 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... don't get it. < 1443818993 655754 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's convenient? < 1443818995 481720 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flowchart-based BF programming. < 1443818999 45160 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1443819004 203409 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, what? < 1443819025 992520 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is an incomplete generic flowchart-y thing, < 1443819036 935025 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you were saying about an esoteric language with a GUI. < 1443819051 398013 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1443819055 153992 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1443819064 936712 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you're working on something related to that? < 1443819086 678645 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, it's quite the opposite - the project it's for makes things easier. < 1443819124 829260 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's the basis of a flowchart editor there, so if you want it for making a flowchart-based esolang off of, I figured it might be useful. < 1443819140 225921 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Now, how a flowchart-based esolang might work, IDK.) < 1443819143 751661 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1443819149 451673 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just thought it might be useful.) < 1443819163 685125 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a language that is a flowchart IS an esolang < 1443819198 723926 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that the flowchart editor works based on a grid... each grid can have one of the things in the dark panel at the top. < 1443819222 558970 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it should be trivial to change, and there's no runtime code yet anyways. < 1443819245 119428 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was meant to be an editor, not actually running anything. < 1443819687 657077 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1443819863 696960 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc8-aztw23-2-0-cust128.aztw.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1443820421 511555 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: 🐵 add this < 1443820559 411976 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1443820675 400251 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode 🐵 < 1443820676 934454 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+1F435 MONKEY FACE \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 b5 UTF-16BE: d83ddc35 Decimal: 🐵 \ 🐵 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) < 1443820693 601702 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`paste bin/unidecode < 1443820695 723409 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/unidecode < 1443820718 793578 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking for Minimalist GUI stuff < 1443820724 535334 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone have any pointers? < 1443820737 502398 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :void *0 < 1443820758 556739 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not a cast < 1443820772 408838 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you seriously complaining about that < 1443820793 32594 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: That's evil < 1443820802 917842 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not as in evil code < 1443820811 414375 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That isn't what I meant to convey < 1443820815 726890 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me resay that < 1443820818 658871 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"-_-" < 1443821160 698123 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone go design a portable Esoteric Widget Toolkit that can be used in other esolangs < 1443821278 584873 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Widget Abomination Toolkit, libwat < 1443821383 884843 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@rn-nat-129-97-131-0.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1443821631 549935 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1443821929 349920 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://capnproto.org/ does anyone know this? < 1443821937 680767 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1443821946 295232 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heard about it before, don't know much about it < 1443821968 786668 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know about this. < 1443822018 891923 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i realize now that i don't really have a question about it < 1443822039 657095 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you recommend it? what do you use it for? < 1443822048 708185 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have not used it. < 1443822069 112595 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1443822161 469041 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1443822937 564964 :qwertyo!~qwertyo1@rn-nat-129-97-131-0.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1443823346 438554 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eek, freshers' fair tomorrow < 1443823363 45148 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently helping to make a terminal app people can use to sign uo < 1443823365 457053 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*up < 1443823373 19012 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to the computer science society here) < 1443823533 399384 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1443823534 885614 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently I am doing some overdue laundry < 1443823538 311473 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not the point < 1443823566 558375 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07HALT14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44582&oldid=44435 5* 03Vihan 5* (+5) 10 < 1443823580 963355 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1443823926 665057 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did intend writing the X widget set for use with C program, which is somewhat like Athena widgets < 1443823988 257498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"is this TC?" experiment: brainfuck with a finitely long tape (with < and > saturating), where most of the cells are 8-bit, and precisely 3 of them are unbounded < 1443824014 738271 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know the specifics ahead of time < 1443824016 422966 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know which three? < 1443824016 937147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1443824037 49376 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess it it's TC anyway, but trying to deal with every possibility for cell layout would be quite complex < 1443824106 206408 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why three? < 1443824141 559839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because BF is known TC with three unbounded cells, but two unbounded cells are known to be not enough without some other form of storage < 1443824168 980688 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which doesn't necessarily have to be unbounded IIRC) < 1443824172 445024 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a finite tape isn't enough storage? < 1443824182 546819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we don't know how long i is < 1443824184 58153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it is < 1443824191 607318 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1443824196 489887 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it might just be three cells. < 1443824198 940927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1443824263 324831 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of my friends is working on a talk about turing machines with tapes that might tear at runtime or something < 1443824315 586710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, new record for video game computational class < 1443824327 62523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Braid is in EXPSPACE: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1412.0784v1.pdf < 1443824382 237880 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy < 1443824392 949205 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know a guy named giovanni viglietta? he proved a bunch of stuff about super mario and similar games < 1443824430 891382 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc i read some of his work < 1443824458 553256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've read the original paper about Mario, Metroid and friends < 1443824459 689369 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did too, not the ones about games tho < 1443824461 448163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately it is broken < 1443824472 285406 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's broken? < 1443824483 376987 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As it turns out, Braid *can* simulate an arbitrary computation – but not because of time manipulation." < 1443824483 865084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically it shows the computational class of specific games in a series (e.g. SMB1 or Zelda 1) < 1443824507 100709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it tries to generalize to other games in the series that have the same mechanics < 1443824511 759279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and although the lower bound generalizes < 1443824515 695528 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the upper bound doesn't < 1443824523 854405 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, not even that < 1443824535 649487 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you have a non-PDF link? < 1443824539 684659 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: two unbounded cells with two zero cells inbetween make brainfuck TC (the zero cells are always zero, and one can make sure that the code will never modify them)... it turns out to be enough for a two-counter machine with while and if-zero-then-else. < 1443824541 103671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is, you have things like the metroid crossover construction that allows passage left→right or top→bottom < 1443824576 465673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: it's arxiv, you could check here: http://arxiv.org/format/1412.0784v1 < 1443824588 314199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: good to know < 1443824600 329081 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in super metroid, the same construction doesn't owrk < 1443824610 486138 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the two cells allow to store one bit of state in the pointer position when extiting a loop) < 1443824614 335934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can do a mid-air morph and go sideways when you shouldn't be able to < 1443824621 636925 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, no index thing < 1443824629 22043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh, I see < 1443824632 419738 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, http://arxiv.org/abs/1412.0784is what I was looking for < 1443824678 653494 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, the two zero cells (though that may have been obvious) < 1443824683 721014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this implies that the problem is having a cell that's zero for breaking out of loops, plus one other bit of state somewhere < 1443824728 317658 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07McCulloch's second machine14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44583&oldid=38818 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-5) 10/* Discussion */ < 1443824901 892873 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've thought a while on the situation of two unbounded cells with just one bounded cell inbetween... so far without a conclusion. < 1443824937 833813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably this cell has a relatively large bound? < 1443824941 202986 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not infinite? < 1443824986 159312 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was actually thinking of a fairly low bound (namely, enough to store the remainder of dividing by 2,3 or 5, perhaps plus 1) < 1443825001 577630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, these are the same lines I'm thinking along atm < 1443825011 855427 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a divide/multiply machine < 1443825012 33368 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a bit more, with the idea of implementing fractran < 1443825021 901219 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or some variant thereof) < 1443825031 630337 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced you need the entirety of fractran, but it'd help < 1443825074 658553 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan targeted http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz%20function in his 3 unbounded cells construction < 1443825139 990297 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we should start with the following construction: two unbounded cells, plus one cell with a program-specified bound < 1443825145 683710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and try to prove that TC < 1443825149 719669 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then try to get the bound as low as possible < 1443825365 119691 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there's a feb 2015 version of the " Classic Nintendo Games are (Computationally) Hard" thing... let's see if they've fixed all the bugs I know about :P < 1443825567 564569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: link? < 1443825585 529116 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.1895 < 1443825625 524697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see how many bugs are fixed < 1443825697 836525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, they had to disallow total control TASes < 1443825891 856635 :atrapado!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1443826007 806698 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, the problem I care about is still there. < 1443826207 460484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this construction proves PSPACE-hardness of Enigma (with no custom Lua used, it's obviously TC-hard if you're allowed to put an entire scripting language in there) < 1443826212 455861 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(namely, in the crossover gadget for SMB, they do not consider the possibility of crossing it vertically as Supermario, leaving at the top, finding a Goomba, and returning as Mario to complete the gadget as if it were crossed horizontally.) < 1443826219 389730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I think there's a decent chance that idealized Enigma is uncomputable < 1443826246 198739 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there are lots of bugs in crossovers in that paper, I think < 1443826254 101927 :\oren\!~oren@65.94.102.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :honey_im_home.gif < 1443826261 213359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they don't allow for "unusual" intended things the player can do < 1443826274 438783 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the SMB one is the only one I've thought about in some detail; not actually knowing most of the games doesn't help :P < 1443826318 889379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know most of the games < 1443826566 465018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: at least the crossover bug you've seen, while valid, is easily fixable < 1443826575 159243 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :right :P < 1443826579 768442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can connect a large drop onto the top of the gadget, so that it's impossible to enter from above < 1443826597 148560 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I mailed them about it and they didn't fix it, which annoys me a bit < 1443826623 978861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should clearly write a paper that's just full of corrections to that paper < 1443826811 710960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow is the crossover for SMW broken < 1443826842 326895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :approach from the top, break the top row of bricks, then crouch-slide to the left < 1443826858 50995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is assuming you can cancel a spin jump; if it can't be cancelled then it probably works < 1443826868 932633 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to block Mario carrying a Koopa shell all the way to the gadget but that seems doable < 1443827108 434790 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the irony is that compared to v1, they already protected one of the entries of the vertical passage by a one-way device... but not the other one < 1443827224 918646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't noticed a problem in SMB3 (assuming you can't carry koopa shells in that game), and SMW seems to work if you can't cancel a spin jump there < 1443827227 142922 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand why they don't use the crouch-sliding protection from the SMB device in the SMW one as well. < 1443827289 965154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I think their plan is that there isn't enough run-up room to crouch-slide < 1443827399 825722 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never played Mario. Maybe I'm missing out. < 1443827410 782927 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact I don't think I ever played any Nintendo games. < 1443827424 885275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the DKC construction works also for DKL1, DKC2, DKC3, and DKC Returns (probably also Tropical Freeze but I don't know enough about that game to be certain) < 1443827449 363523 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1443827464 776944 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, most Mario games are mostly about input precision < 1443827469 644132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are quite easy if played slowly < 1443827479 205160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(playing them faster reduces your reaction times) < 1443827490 221851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes they also have a sub-theme of working out routes through the level < 1443827495 600050 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*reduces the time you have to react < 1443827500 974215 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had an idea for an Esolang < 1443827511 718362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the exception is in the 3D games, which are quite different in how they work < 1443827523 565133 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think one of its features has been done before, unfortunately < 1443827540 658980 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, more than one < 1443827547 463070 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a 2D Brainfuck derivative < 1443827551 460065 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it gets worse < 1443827581 969681 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses as much of unicode as possible < 1443827591 304875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, their description of "all Donkey Kong games" seems wrong < 1443827594 961946 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmmm, "Lemmings is PSPACE-complete"... something to dream about, good night < 1443827598 351925 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tape is measured in surreal numbers. < 1443827613 714274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wouldn't work for Donkey Kong Country Returns, because a) it has no Zingers (for copyright reasons, IIRC), and b) both Kongs can take two hits < 1443827617 783208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivially fixable, though, I think < 1443827621 251928 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1], how does that work < 1443827626 117398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :night int-e < 1443827630 556880 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Which part? < 1443827640 669835 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :surreals < 1443827656 640085 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Surreals in general or their usage in this BF derivative? < 1443827665 45126 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter < 1443827742 394881 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, all BF commands behave as normally, for starters < 1443827743 866598 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1443827752 825649 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tape location is a surreal number. < 1443827764 690079 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :< and > move the tape to the left and to the right < 1443827775 665512 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yyyes but > and < can only take you to the integers < 1443827784 757718 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the unicode arrow equivalents move it an /infinite number of cells/ to the left and to the right < 1443827798 966781 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so < 1443827804 802739 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that a different set of unicode arrows will move infinitesimally < 1443827811 321090 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :the surreals are so big they're a proper class, not a set < 1443827813 623953 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure what the use of that would be though < 1443827820 629033 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1443827821 725776 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And? < 1443827843 395493 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :any language consisting of finite programs in a finite alphabet can only access countably many cells < 1443827844 854393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, hmm, I'm not convinced that the DKC1 door construction works, e.g. I think you could just grab the Tire and throw it entirely out of the area when entering from the Open side < 1443827852 65612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I forget how Tires work in that game < 1443827852 243624 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not surreals in this case so much as the sum of surreals, so your location has a real, an infinite, and an infinitessimal part) < 1443827907 110764 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'm implementing it in python, where I'll be able to use dictionaries instead of just an array. < 1443827910 97557 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sort of being an asshole here, it's clear what you actually mean but it ain't the surreals < 1443827922 965321 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Efficient? No. Cool? Hell yes. < 1443827926 191410 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: How so? < 1443827935 386920 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I have to get up early and I am so tired < 1443827941 335334 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I have a load of laundry on < 1443827972 736323 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you're describing sounds a lot like lexicographic order < 1443827997 832241 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm? < 1443828018 196958 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a move left instruction, and a move left infinity instruction < 1443828036 135751 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1443828044 322795 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't this just be modelled with move left and move up < 1443828047 537720 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems to me like the surreal numbers. < 1443828056 564607 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it can be, but that's not as fun. < 1443828061 268657 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. the surreals are, again, very very very big < 1443828062 648996 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, up is going to be taken xD < 1443828063 20480 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's closer to the gaussian integers < 1443828075 836298 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, true. Surreal integers, perhaps? < 1443828083 485463 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, look < 1443828099 658441 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1443828104 406655 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking < 1443828114 633629 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :the surreals have nothing to do with what you're describing < 1443828124 926504 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not < 1443828132 730517 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I'll /make/ it fit xD < 1443828184 986237 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't just take a definition in mathematics and pretend that it means something that it really doesn't < 1443828189 262463 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not how mathematics works < 1443828192 682268 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not how anything works < 1443828198 125450 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just being wrong < 1443828203 214008 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: No, I mean that I'm going to change the way my BF derivative works to make it fit < 1443828209 184980 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that I should've said that better < 1443828228 891436 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really care that you're wrong, i care that there's an easy way to be right and you're overlooking it < 1443828251 909777 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :As Phantom_Hoover said, you can only access a countably finite number of cells < 1443828254 835696 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Not using the surreal numbers you mean? < 1443828278 595808 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have < and > to move left and right, and <' and >' to move left and right by infinity, this behaves exactly the same way as having < and > to move left/right and ^ and v to move up/down < 1443828320 720695 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I know, I know, I'm going to do it by using a sub... thing of the surreals. You can only access a countably finite number of BF cells normally, and BF is limited to the integers. < 1443828337 173042 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I know, I know. I'm working on making a better definition < 1443828344 313290 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :any bf tape will be in bijection with the integers < 1443828382 494912 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK. So how can I at least emulate using the surreals in a BF-like program? < 1443828426 410297 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I go to ##math to figure it out? < 1443828438 709844 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to have some way to run > infinity times, then do some stuff after < 1443828454 712633 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or emulate it, correct? < 1443828475 178929 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I can't literally do > infinity times, but I can pretend I do for the programmer's sake < 1443828495 761602 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you run up against the halting problem and thomson's lamp here < 1443828502 889771 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit. < 1443828514 630034 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMN YOU, TURING AND FRIENDS! < 1443828516 919939 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1443828523 26775 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALSO, THOMSON! < 1443828633 1378 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Is there a way I can /pretend/, for a programmer's sake, that I'm using Surreal Numbers < 1443828698 915471 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :what might be possible* is that you could hobble the language enough that you can reliably take the limit of a program as it runs forever, then add more computational power through transfinite operations < 1443828722 68337 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you'll need to do a lot more research, you're pretty confused about infinity right now < 1443828745 857404 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK? < 1443828752 105707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "thomson's lamp"? < 1443828762 4360 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomson's_lamp < 1443828768 788040 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google. It is your friend. < 1443828779 834343 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hmm < 1443828782 340688 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did that to Agora once < 1443828791 647323 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your creepy friend that stalks you, granted. But still your friend. You have bad choices in friends. < 1443828879 866439 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should just use the hyperreals... < 1443828893 593928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also used that to fix a misconception I had with Banana StackFlow < 1443828913 819139 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i looked at the definition of the hyperreals once < 1443828915 259285 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :never again < 1443828926 896782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm trying to figure out M:tG's computational class: it's clearly above TC but it's unclear how far above, and in particular, whether it's capable of solving its own halting problem) < 1443828962 718571 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1], flash quiz: what's aleph one, what's beth one, and are they the same? < 1443828994 206865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Moreover, Samus cannot traverse from the Check path down to the literal wires because she would have to jump and morph in mid-air." yes but you can do that in Super Metroid, that is an intended game mechanic < 1443829001 778697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: haha ;-) < 1443829020 396395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely enough, my intuitive feeling is that I know what aleph 1 is, but don't know what beth 1 is < 1443829028 903014 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. I thought the hyperreals were just a 3-dimensional number, where one of the extra axes is infinity and the other is the infintessimal. < 1443829039 158470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, I know the definitions, this is more about an understanding of what "numbers" they represent) < 1443829082 40914 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still seems crazy to me that anyone talks about aleph 1 like it's a definite, friendly thing < 1443829100 783210 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's a definite, clearly defined thing < 1443829103 752382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just has insane properties < 1443829153 248896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm, they have a cop-out fix for Super Metroid < 1443829178 518143 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :claiming that the constructions are broken by additional game mechanics but can be easily fixed, but not saying how < 1443829302 532476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Pokémon construction requires the player's Pokémon to be level 100; otherwise it can conceivably screw up the construction via learning moves through level up < 1443829530 19907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the NP proof there is broken in Gold/Silver and later, though, due to the existence of Leftovers which can outheal Struggle (although it's easily fixable in Gold/Silver/Crystal, I am less certain about Ruby/Sapphire onwards) < 1443829581 465388 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, there's this build known as "FunBro" whose only purpose is to make the battle last indefinitely long < 1443829592 520663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea being that eventually your opponent gives up and concedes < 1443829731 677744 :Tod-Autojoined!Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net NICK :TodPunk < 1443829960 56116 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how is M:tG clearly above TC? < 1443829973 985175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: the infinite loop + subgame rules, combined < 1443830007 251863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, you can create a potentially infinite loop in a subgame, then inspect the life totals in the main game to see whether the subgame was automatically declared a draw or not < 1443830015 35335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to solve the halting problem < 1443830025 246399 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, are there non-(un-) cards with subgames? (sorry, I've only played a bit of M:tG) < 1443830034 289929 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shahrazad, but it got banned from every format < 1443830039 39553 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1443830053 337432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because people were playing it recursively in a method to stall out a game < 1443830061 130235 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*as a method to stall out a game < 1443830080 210215 :FireFly!firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that is interesting though, yeah < 1443830197 970415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, now I wonder if you can create a communications channel from a subgame to a main game whose size isn't bounded in advance < 1443830219 589891 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so; you can wish cards out of the main game, but I don't think wishes work on tokens < 1443830227 557877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning you'd be bounded by the size of the deck < 1443830283 346352 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1], anyway, if you're still reading, it's cool that you're interested in this stuff, you just need to read more and better sources < 1443830331 277566 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i regret that i can't recommend anything specific but there must be dozens of good explanations of cantor's groundwork by now < 1443830339 238032 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I know, I'm currently reading as much as I can on Surreals