00:11:25 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:27:33 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:35:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:51:47 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:07:49 I have implemented a \protected command in TeX which is a bit similar to the \protected command in e-TeX, but it does not quite make the control sequence unexpandable though. I intend to try to figure out if some trick is possible (perhaps involving conditionals) so that it expands into itself, but otherwise can still work 01:09:32 But maybe it is impossible and you have to stay with the current way 01:16:41 But even during expansion you can define an undefined control sequence to mean \relax so maybe that can be used. (But probably not) 01:18:51 What cool APIs are there? 01:18:54 Online or Offline 01:27:23 I don't know? 01:53:15 Is sin(a*pi) always an algebraic number when a is a rational number? 02:03:12 http://divisbyzero.com/2010/10/28/trigonometric-functions-and-rational-multiples-of-pi/ 02:10:34 -!- MDude has joined. 02:32:10 -!- mapm has joined. 02:52:20 My \protected macro makes a macro that expands into something like \begingroup\everymath={}\everyhbox={}\mathcode255=32768\setbox0=\hbox\bgroup$^^ff{xyzzy$$} 02:53:13 (I know it is strange!) 02:54:47 -!- mapm has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:55:49 Do you know how to improve it? 03:01:21 How about some Esoteric Social Networks? 03:11:33 -!- variable has joined. 03:17:47 Sounds more like it'd be the other kind of esoteric. 03:18:43 An idea I have for a silly math-based chat system might interest you. 03:19:22 An equation based chat where every user has a number instead of a name. 03:19:45 And people can only sen messages in the from of mathematical statements that equal their user number. 03:20:20 Messages being displayed as equations. 03:21:11 For now I leave implementation to fungot. 03:21:11 MDude: is the balrog following in the footsteps of another very special date. please, put on the packages he sends home, against the wishes of an old enemy, and smote the deepest, darkest secrets of atlantis. 03:21:58 I think fungot wants me to do it myself. 03:21:58 MDude: hail, hobbit merchant, practised with bow, can i do to help. 03:26:59 It's probably a while before I get to it, actually. 03:33:05 * pikhq wishes it were more practical to obtain the event legendaries 03:33:28 I caught all of the ones it's possible to, but dammit, I'm not Japanese. How am I supposed to get Jirachi? 03:35:48 Object-oriented operating system 03:35:51 heheheheheh 03:39:41 I dunno if that's a bad idea. 03:40:08 Filesystems and processes are already organized as a tree. 03:41:07 And invoking functions from one process to another sounds more efficient and meggase system-like than using text streams for everything. 03:42:15 Running processes could be considered isntances of the executable file they run from, which can be considered the class. 03:43:50 In fact I'm pretty sure the oeprating system in the programming OS making book I stopped reading after a while is made in an object-oriented language. 03:44:45 http://www.nand2tetris.org/course.php 03:55:27 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 03:55:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:56:04 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 04:04:18 Here's an EsoOS idea 04:04:28 Most OSes are based off of an "Office" theme 04:04:31 Desktop, files, etc. 04:04:40 What alternative thing could we base it on? 04:05:20 An interesting idea. 04:05:33 Mathematical objects. 04:05:35 Tiny cubicle (for a very small OS)? Bathroom? Kitchen? HENGE? 04:06:09 I've been wanting to make an operating system made for other settings, though I think some might be a bit more practical. 04:06:22 I like the Henge idea 04:06:33 Like family-oriented OS, with networking features made to reflect family structute rather than corporate structure. 04:06:42 Let me brush up on what hanges are. 04:07:02 You mean the neolithic things? 04:07:37 Have any of you solved any of my Magic: the Puzzling? 04:09:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:10:07 -!- bb010g has joined. 04:11:43 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:19:06 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:20:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:32:17 -!- variable has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero). 04:41:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:45:13 HengeOS 04:52:11 -!- JesseH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:53:31 How about an OS based around runes? 04:54:05 zzo38: Or a Magic: The Gathering OS 04:57:41 Well. Runes, Henges, etc. I'm off to make DruidzOS 05:02:37 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:02:54 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 05:03:19 -!- digitalcold has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:04:34 -!- digitalcold has joined. 05:26:04 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:41:03 Is there a program to render a Magic: the Puzzling game as a PNG or DVI or something? 05:42:57 zzo38: What did you make Magic: The Puzzling in? 05:43:31 TeX? if so, then any TeX builder/compiler/whatever should work; Converting TeX to DVI is pretty much the basic TeXy thing 05:46:40 No it is just a ordinary text file 05:47:40 (Whatever program to render would also need to get the card texts, since I haven't included those; preferably those which are current at the time of the specified rule date) 05:57:27 Did you look at any of these puzzles? 05:59:18 zzo38: Is there a historical Oracle text database? 05:59:40 http://i.imgur.com/Whr9Shz.png lol 06:00:23 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:02:18 shachaf: I don't know, but there is Yawgatog which has all of the changelogs 06:02:37 (As well as the changelogs for the rules, too) 06:02:55 Are those publicly available somewhere? 06:03:50 Yes. http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/ 06:05:00 Ah, I was thinking of Datatog. 06:07:56 See if you can figure out any of these puzzles: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.1 http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.2 http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.3 hopefully I can make up some more later; if you make some up I would like those one too please! 06:08:17 I would want to have them in a book! 06:09:04 Are there copyright issues with publishing a book of Magic: the Puzzlings? 06:09:05 Probably. 06:09:33 Yes probably it is; I would want Wizards of the Coast to do it if they can. 06:23:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:28:19 -!- zadock has joined. 06:29:00 zzo38: puzzle 2 should say "he or she" 06:29:09 That's how Magic: the Puzzlings should be phrased. 06:29:54 -!- mauris has joined. 06:30:24 I don't think so. Rosewater even mentions the name of the opponent; in my puzzles I have not, but sometimes include the gender because English is a stupid language. 06:31:01 I think it's general Wizards of the Coast policy when referring to an unknown person. 06:31:37 At least where Magic: the Gathering is concerned. 06:31:48 Yes, when they print the card it would do so, that is correct. 06:32:53 shachaf: I agree with zzo38. the cards say "he or she" because they don't want other people to suggest that Wizards wants only male or only female players to play the games. but the description of a particular game can use just "he" or just "she" 06:33:20 I suppose that's true. 06:34:06 zzo38 also sometimes uses "he" in proposed card text, which is what I was thinking of. 06:35:01 I agree on this aspect of English, anyway. 06:35:03 Yes, or rarely "she"; but clearly they would be printed differently (I also tend to omit reminder text too, even if it is reminder text they would probably print) 06:36:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:36:30 Well, reminder text is different. It's not part of the rules. 06:36:48 But a card that says "target player discards his hand" can only be used on male players. 06:37:07 (I suppose that people who are neither "he" nor "she" are immune to many Magic: the Gathering effects.) 06:37:10 If you are playing Un-cards then perhaps yes. But that is not what I am doing here 06:37:33 as for the reminder texts, my biggest grief about that is that they printed Spreading Seas without a reminder text. 06:37:33 Therefore, people who are neither "he" nor "she" are not immune (unless they are not playing the game, of course) 06:38:16 b_jonas: The reminder text should say that it loses other land types and so on? 06:38:59 That's a scow rule anyway. 06:39:08 My problem with reminder texts is that Oracle texts include them as searchable text. They should be a separate search field when you want to search Oracle texts rather than printed texts. 06:39:30 shachaf: losing land types isn't the tricky part. the tricky part is that it also loses abilities that were printed on the card (such as if it's a non-basic land with a fancy mana ability; but does not lose abilities it gets in later layers) 06:39:37 I agree that some of the rules are klugy. 06:39:43 shachaf: losing land types is normal, that's how type setting abilities work (with one exception) 06:39:53 Yes, that's what I meant. 06:40:01 why do all fantasy games have black lotuses? 06:40:14 What's the exception? 06:42:57 shachaf: see 205.1b 06:43:14 We should have a Magic: the Gathering bot in here. 06:43:52 The exception is "artifact creature"? 06:44:51 shachaf: and I don't think players who are neither he or she are immune. "he or she" in a rules text always refers to a player who's mentioned previously in text, so that rule I can't find now might apply, that rule which says an effect that says “that [property]” to refer to an object previously mentioned by the text still refers to an object even if it no longer has that characteristic or property mentioned. 06:45:25 which rule is that? 06:46:14 was I just dreaming that? 06:46:29 etf 06:46:31 wtf 06:52:47 maybe I was, I'm confusing it with something else or something 06:55:26 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 06:55:28 [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44599&oldid=44527 * 82.116.252.147 * (+766) 06:56:17 [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44600&oldid=44599 * 82.116.252.147 * (+0) 06:56:45 [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44601&oldid=44600 * 82.116.252.147 * (+4) 06:57:31 [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44602&oldid=44601 * 82.116.252.147 * (-2) 06:58:43 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:13:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 07:15:24 Has Shahrazad ever been used in Magic: the Puzzling before? 07:16:01 Magic: the Puzzling is the name of a book, right? 07:16:33 It is, although I mean in general and not only the book of that title. 07:19:10 Concordant Crossroads seem to be common in many puzzles though 07:23:04 zzo38: because to make a puzzle difficult, you typically need a lot of things happening on one turn 07:23:09 and haste is a good way to make that useful 07:24:57 Chess puzzles often continue over several turns. 07:25:03 I suppose determinism makes that easier. 07:25:41 ais523: Yes, I can see that is why; it is why I had include such thing too 07:26:39 shachaf: Yes, chess puzzles (and tsume shogi) usually do involve several turns; in Magic: the Puzzling it is usually only one but sometimes more than one or multiple. 07:27:11 The book titled "Magic: the Puzzling" does not use Shahrazad, but has Rosewater ever used it in any other puzzle and has anyone else ever done so? 07:27:34 There's also another card that creates a subgame, right? 07:27:49 Maybe the only other card is an un-card. 07:28:16 Yes I think the only other card is un-card 07:28:34 That card has you play a subgame under the table. What if you're not playing on a table? 07:29:24 Then use the other table! 07:29:45 shachaf: there's an official un-ruling that if you have to start playing a subgame under the table when you're already under the table, you have to find a different table to play under 07:29:54 Aha. 07:29:55 this would seem to be a similar situation 07:30:14 Yes, I was specifically thinking of the situation where you're not playing on a table because you're playing under the table. 07:30:24 What if your table has a table underneath it, though? 07:30:38 I suppose that table still qualified as "a different table". 07:36:31 tsume go also involve several turns 07:36:37 more live for go! 07:36:45 *love 07:40:54 it should be noted that un-rulings are possibly not entirely serious 07:44:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:02:10 -!- GoToTell has joined. 08:08:37 [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44603&oldid=44602 * Jabutosama * (+996) 08:11:57 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:19:18 I once asked what actions are considered atomic for the purposes of conceding, and I have been told that nothing is. This allows a lot of possibilities. 08:27:05 zzo38: right, but there's also some tricky phrasing in the rule about undoing invalid actions (such as trying to cast a spell that has no valid target) that imply that it doesn't undo conceding, so you can't just concede very quickly when someone says he announces he casts Lava Spike to stop him from casting it and then undo the conceding because the casting is rolled back. 08:29:06 I know that, you can't undo conceding, and you aren't supposed to do anyways. 08:29:08 no wait, I don't mean Lava Spike. let's say Duress. 08:29:55 b_jonas: I was thinking more, suppose that someone's only source of red mana is a Mountain you own (but they control) 08:30:11 they start to cast Lava Spike, you concede before they can tap your Mountain for mana 08:30:25 in fact, you can't undo conceding even in a multiplayer game with more than two teams where the game wouldn't immediately end when you concede. 08:31:13 -!- skarn has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:31:22 ais523: yes, that can work, but I think there's also a rule that if you concede, then all your teammates lose, so you can't save your team this way. the only thing you can do is influence what opponent wins. 08:31:39 I would prefer to add another rule: Whenever a player concedes, the other players have the chance to choose to concede simultaneously with that player. (Not relevant for the top-level of a 1.vs.1 game) 08:31:53 In which order? 08:32:03 b_jonas: what if your teammates have angel's grace active? 08:32:17 I believe your teammates can survive a concession due to formats like Star 08:32:19 b_jonas: Are you sure? I think only in Two Headed Giant? 08:32:40 Does the complexity class of Magic change in 4-player commander? 08:32:42 In a normal team game you can concede and not have your entire team to lose. 08:32:50 ais523: I don't think Angel's Grace saves you from conceding, so I don't think it saves a teammate either, btu let me check the rules 08:32:56 ais523: Conceding in a Star game is very rude, though. 08:32:57 zzo38: dunno, let me re-read the rules 08:33:11 No effect can stop any player from conceding. 08:33:20 -!- skarn has joined. 08:33:20 Well, I think the Star games we used to play weren't the typical ones, actually. 08:33:26 Obviously you have to be able to concede any time, even during a spell, even without un-games. 08:33:50 Can you concede a subgame? 08:33:52 Taneb: I don't think so; I currently believe that Magic is in one of the lower uncomputable complexity classes, even in 2-player 60 card Vintage 08:33:54 shachaf: yes 08:34:02 Yes I believe you can concede a subgame independently of the main game 08:34:19 (And I can think of situations where you would want to do so) 08:34:26 I used to know a lot of MtG rules but I've forgotten a lot. 08:34:52 My Rules Advisor thing expires next week. 08:35:10 Then it'll be a felony to provide legal advice or something? 08:35:11 I actually played magic yesterday 08:35:20 zzo38: the situations aren't even that rare 08:35:30 oh, you're right, I was wrong 08:35:32 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 08:35:34 back when Shahrazad was unbanned, if someone played it against you in a tournament 08:35:41 conceding the subgame was normally the best option 08:35:43 the rule that a player conceding makes his team lose is a rule only for Two-Headed Giant 08:35:47 Taneb: physical cards? mtgo? proxies? 08:35:52 ais523: physical cards 08:35:58 which format? 08:36:04 Commander, two players 08:36:14 A friend lent me a deck 08:36:22 I might play this weekend. 08:36:22 so in normal multiplayer game, I can indeed concede to save my teammate, such as when an opponent casts Hex 08:36:29 it's rarely a good strategy, but it can work 08:36:36 sorry 08:36:39 The trouble is, the people I play with (including me) all hate playing this game. 08:36:50 Lost the first game, because I never got enough ramp to get going, but then I won the two following games 08:36:53 shachaf: if everyone hates it, that's a good reason to not play 08:37:08 ais523: Why was that? 08:37:09 Taneb: nice. what deck? 08:37:09 shachaf: indeed, some say that not playing is the only winning move 08:37:11 wait wait 08:37:14 Commander with two players? 08:37:17 that's a thing? 08:37:20 Apparently 08:37:21 isn't Commander a multiplayer format? 08:37:30 What stops you playing with two players? 08:37:40 I think "hate" might be oversimplified. 08:37:45 Yes you can play Commander with two players; rule 903.2 explicitly says so. 08:37:56 zzo38: basically because decks that played Shahrazad were either trying to delay the game, or using repeated uses of Wishes to recycle their cards 08:38:03 b_jonas: I do not have a good memory for magic cards 08:38:06 and conceding reduces their ability to do either of those things 08:38:18 Taneb: Did you commandeer a deck? 08:38:29 shachaf: essentially 08:38:31 b_jonas: there's a format known as Duel Commander or French Commander which is basically just 2 player commander, but the banlist is different because some cards are broken or nonbroken depending on the number of players 08:38:41 But my commander was RGB5, I think a 7/5, gives all my creatures haste and says cascade, cascade 08:38:50 I am not concerned about delaying the game, although the other possibility is something I have thought of. Of course it doesn't work if you have only 1 life point remaining 08:39:10 ais523: ok. I'd prefer ordinary singleton 60 or 100 card constructed, without the special commander thingies 08:39:34 100 cards seems like too many to me. 08:39:35 b_jonas: "100 card singleton" is a format with minimal official Wizards support (i.e. I think they acknowledge it exists and not much else) 08:39:36 And my opponent's commander let him steal sourceries from the tops of people's decks up to the casting cost? 08:39:43 But I haven't played Commander much. 08:39:58 Taneb: those decks sounds like they were designed for multiplayer 08:40:11 ais523: they were 08:40:12 (because commander decks designed for duels are normally faster) 08:40:31 He had the decks to play later that evening with a bunch of people 08:40:40 And it was the two of us hanging out between lectures 08:40:44 I've actually played a black deck that was almost singleton, with I think only one (non-basic) card duplicated, and that I could convert to a 60 card singleton deck easily. It wasn't a good deck, mind you. 08:40:49 I have never played Commander, and I don't play Magic: the Gathering much at all (I do sometimes, but rarely), but I am interested in Magic: the Puzzling and would buy more books if they made them 08:40:59 I played it in ordinary 60 card constructed that is. 08:41:21 This is because black has so many different cheap removal spells that I can just pack all different ones and still have choices to make. 08:41:27 zzo38: If I made an unofficial Magic: the Puzzling book, would you buy it? 08:42:02 shachaf: Yes I expect so (if it isn't too expensive, and preferably if it can be paid in Canadian money) 08:42:49 I am still a very weak player but I am getting better 08:43:09 Taneb: hmm indeed, the comprehensive rules specifically say "903.2. A Commander game may be a two-player game or a multiplayer game." 08:43:41 But one of my goals is to become a half-decent player without spending any money on magic 08:43:59 What is the critical Funge98 vulnerability in the topic? 08:44:16 I need to get dressed and go to lectures 08:44:18 Bye 08:44:20 Taneb: That is very difficult, even if you are using only proxies 08:45:01 It's not that difficult. 08:45:04 But you can just play with other people you can borrow their cards. And occasionally there are tournaments you don't have to pay 08:45:16 I would give Taneb a bunch of free cards if he was in the area. 08:45:20 "But my commander was RGB5, I think a 7/5, gives all my creatures haste and says cascade, cascade" -- do you mean Maelstrom Wanderer? That costs 5URG, not 5BRG. 08:45:40 B for Blue, perhaps. 08:45:47 Black should be S. 08:45:57 In Magic: the Gathering, B is for Black, though. 08:45:58 shachaf: no, black should be K, but that's too late 08:46:06 we can't change it now 08:46:09 K? 08:46:15 shachaf: as in CYMK 08:46:20 It was like that ever since the game was invented. 08:46:26 Ah. 08:46:32 we're stuck with B=(black mana symbol), U=(blue mana symbol), Q=(untap symbol) 08:46:50 shachaf: and no, S=(snow mana symbol) 08:46:55 so no 08:47:05 There are so many names for combinations of colors. 08:47:07 I mean, you could say snow mana shouldn't exist, but still 08:47:38 I might still remember the names for the two-color combinations (Ravnica guilds, right?), but I'm hopeless at the three-color combinations. 08:47:44 It doesn't help that people make up bad slang for them. 08:48:11 S stands for many things. 08:48:13 there was a ürogramming game at a google contest, wasn't it? 08:48:18 shachaf: are there? most of the names are just the names of the Ravnica guilds, the Alara shards, and the Tarkir khans 08:48:21 Schwartz, Shachor, Skull 08:48:45 those names make sense 08:48:49 I never played Alara and I don't remember the Tarkir khans. 08:48:59 for four-color combinations, you're screwed, though I think zzo38 had some names for them 08:49:19 They could be named in terms of what they aren't. 08:49:20 The names I used are the same as names other people had used for four-colors 08:49:42 coboros -- UBG 08:49:45 -!- mauris has joined. 08:49:57 coblack -- WURG 08:50:10 That would be an easy system with half the memorization. 08:50:14 I like that, although it is not the convention 08:50:29 shards (WUB, UBR, etc.): esper, grixis, jund, naya, bant; wedges (WUR, etc.): jeskai, sultai, mardu, temur, azban 08:50:40 however, I dislike the use of shard/wedge names to name colour combinations only 08:50:43 -!- scoofy has joined. 08:50:43 because they also refer to decks 08:50:47 (likewise guilds) 08:50:56 zzo38: but what names are they? Yore-Tiller, Glint-Eye, Dune-Brood, Ink-Treader, Witch-Maw? 08:51:10 something like "jund" is an established deck in Modern, and players know how it behaves 08:51:17 b_jonas: Yes 08:51:26 and a black/red/green deck built on different lines, IMO that shouldn't also be called "jund" because it's just confusing 08:51:30 WGU is too good. 08:51:33 It should be bant. 08:52:25 the shards are easy to remember because they're alphabetized: Bant is white centered and first in alphabetic order, Esper is blue centered and second in alphabetic order, etc 08:53:02 ais523: it's spelled "abzan", not "azban" 08:53:25 err, right 08:54:33 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:55:42 shachaf: I don't think that works, because "cored" would be a bad name 08:57:15 I have thought of "Functional Commander", where you are not allowed two cards that differ only in name, in addition to standard Commander rules. 08:58:16 zzo38: but what if one is strictly better than the other? or the two are the same in nearly all circumstances? 08:58:24 e.g. would you allow both lightning strike and volcanic hammer? 08:59:22 ais523: Yes you can have both, as their types differ. 08:59:40 Therefore it is not "differ only in name" 08:59:46 so any change is sufficent 08:59:53 what about creature type? 09:00:01 Yes. Creature type changed is also sufficient. 09:00:10 zzo38: I don't really like that. I like the idea of using names, so that you can use both Terramorphic Expanse and the other land that's the same. 09:00:30 b_jonas: Evolving Wilds 09:00:32 -!- heddwch has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:00:49 interesting that you remembered the other one, Wizards seem to prefer Evolving Wilds to Terramorphic Expanse 09:00:58 (although Terramorphic came first) 09:01:20 ais523: sure, because I have old cards in my collection, so I have four of Terramorphic 09:01:28 but I don't have Evolving Wilds (yet) 09:01:31 -!- heddwch has joined. 09:01:31 ah right 09:01:35 This might lead to problems like players having to seek out rare cards like Fyndhorn Elves or portal cards, 09:01:43 I probably have four of Terramorphic, it was all over the place when I used to draft 09:01:53 It is not allowed both Llanowar Elves and Fyndhorn Elves though; you must choose one or the other. If opponent has to guess the name of the card, they don't know which one you have; put the one opponent think you don't have! Or, if you are playing a variant with teams, use the same name or different name depending on what works best with the decks being used. 09:01:54 also people have to seek out rare cards anyway, if their deck needs them 09:01:59 but that's not really worse than the way people have to seek out expensive cards right now. 09:02:09 for example there's a Legacy deck where most of the cards are cheap, but it really needs copies of Imperial Seal to function 09:02:22 I prefer the rule about English names. 09:02:48 ais523: is Imperial Seal a dupe of some other card? 09:03:08 not as far as I know 09:03:19 if it was, the other card would almost certainly be played 09:03:19 right 09:03:41 this happens all over magic, in most formats 09:04:09 you still remember when people were playing 16 mythic rare planeswalkers, including a version of Jace, in their standard deck, right? 09:04:32 oh, apparently it has an instant-speed version, which is banned in Legacy (which is why nobody plays it) 09:04:54 b_jonas: I don't think so 09:05:01 16 mythic-rare /cards/, that's believable 09:05:02 I remember watching a practice match of such a game with all the planeswalkers replaced by proxies. It was very confusing. 09:05:06 but I don't think Superfriends has ever been tier 1 09:05:13 and it's the only deck that would use that many 09:07:07 Another kind of game would be "Standard Solitaire", which has the same rules of normal game except that rule 104.2a ("A player still in the game wins the game if all of that player's opponents have left the game.") is omitted. 09:07:28 what's the win condition? effects that cause you to win only? 09:07:33 Yes. 09:08:03 hmm 09:08:10 zzo38: that sounds strange 09:08:19 A deck for use with such solitaire game would be really strange 09:08:28 I remember winning with Coalition Victory in draft (twice, in fact) 09:08:35 (same deck though, two different matches) 09:08:38 -!- Frooxius has joined. 09:08:50 zzo38: I don't think it would be. 09:09:15 zzo38: you'd just need like two cards in the 60 card deck that were generally dead during most of the game, and you'd play it at your leisure after the opponent leaves the game 09:09:42 the two cards could be Elixir of Immortality and Helix Pinnacle 09:09:47 b_jonas: it's "solitaire" so there probably are no opponents 09:09:54 ais523: what why? 09:10:02 because that's what "solitaire" means 09:10:09 ais523: but that's not what the rules zzo38 said say 09:10:31 -!- mroman_ has joined. 09:10:33 Well, if you play solitaire that is different, and all other deck-building conditions are ignored (including minimum 60 cards); you would use the deck to make the game more interesting, which would have to be really strange for solitaire playing! 09:10:40 ais523: rule 101.1 is still working 09:10:43 I'm getting a weird case of GHC stack-space overflow: current limit is 33696 bytes. 09:11:04 mroman_: that's… not very big 09:14:46 It's about 3kB 09:14:53 should be enough 09:15:22 zzo38: um, what all deck-building conditions. can you use non-Magic cards? un-cards? twenty Black Lotus proxies and twenty Plague Rats? 09:16:43 the weird thing is 09:16:55 It overflows if I print the structure 09:17:01 Presumably it must be designed using official non-un-cards, although it is not a tournament so you can use proxies if you wish 09:17:04 which is crazily weird 09:17:06 it's like 09:17:08 when I don't print it 09:17:15 parsec doesn't stack overflow 09:17:16 when I print it 09:17:19 parsec will stack overflow 09:17:36 mroman_: remember that Haskell is lazy 09:17:46 the stack's going to be a bit deeper (inside the print) when you start to evaluate it 09:17:53 that might be enough to tip the stack over the limit 09:18:29 if you don't print it, how do you make sure it's evaluated deeply? 09:19:47 b_jonas: I don't know. 09:20:41 what happens if I do 09:20:48 instance Show Foo 09:20:59 but I don't provide any implentation for show 09:21:04 *implementation 09:23:08 You can also use standard deck rules if you wish; it is a solitaire game so you can play the variant you want to play. 09:24:23 mroman_: dunno, ask ghc or the #haskell people 09:24:47 it would have to use the default show, which I think exists and is based on showS or some such method 09:24:48 zzo38: I think goldfishing is probably a better-balanced solitaire game with Magic cards 09:25:32 mroman_: Try it and see what happen 09:25:36 you play against a hypothetical opponent who has a deck of 60 cards that can't be played (e.g. sorceries with no rules text or mana cost) 09:25:40 and have to beat them on the first turn possible 09:27:21 ais523: or a deck of 60 forests, and the opponent tries to play a forest from their hand at the first main phase of each turn but does not do much else (this isn't a complete spec, because it doesn't tell what she'd choose if you cast Gifts Ungiven or even just Cruel Edict if she controls creatures). 09:27:53 b_jonas: I think someone pointed out that if the opponent is playing basic lands 09:27:55 b_jonas: This is why I made up the other game 09:28:00 you can get an unrealistic advantage using land hosers 09:28:59 ais523: how is that unrealistic? most people play some sort of lands. he's playing only one type of land, you don't get to play landwalkers of all five basic land types for free. 09:29:10 b_jonas: well if you know which one it is 09:29:15 hmm 09:29:22 also basic lands are kind-of rarely used nowadays 09:29:35 at least in constructed 09:29:38 what if he plays plains instead? there are few hosers for that, right? 09:29:42 because of rare lands 09:29:53 I think all basic land types have hosers 09:30:08 I think it might actually be mountains that are the least hosable 09:30:23 (you can play mountainwalkers but against a goldfish it doesn't matter because they aren't blocking anyway) 09:30:41 Regardless of what single land type there is also Magical Hack. 09:31:33 there's Balance; Tithe; Knight of the White Orchid, but all of those work for any lands, basic or non-basic, and Balance makes the opponent sacrifice lands which isn't very powerful against a goldfish. 09:31:45 I was thinking of things like Karma 09:32:32 There's also Fellwar Stone and its land version (what's it called?), but those also work against many of the non-basic lands people typically play 09:32:53 I also thought Karma + Magical Hack 09:33:06 hmm, is there something that helps you because the opponent has six or seven lands in their hand? 09:33:29 Karma... hmm 09:33:37 there are definitely cards that punish the opponent for having a lot of cards in hand 09:33:43 I can't think of one that targets land specifically 09:37:26 there's some cards that destroy lands, and even one that makes an opponent discard a non-basic land card, but those aren't very useful in a goldfish usually 09:38:34 zzo38: it gives me said stackoverflow :) 09:41:04 b_jonas: well it could help to fuel a deathrite shaman 09:41:20 I can't provide a "useful" show instance 09:41:29 because it'd need to be show :: a -> IO String 09:41:58 that's why I just wrote instance Show Foo 09:42:17 instance Show Foo where show x = "" works fine 09:42:53 ais523: sure, but those kinds of combos don't really give you an unfair advantage. 09:43:03 I know 09:43:05 you already have a lot of advantage in goldfish. 09:43:35 and I think mountain would be worse than plains, because there's some giants in Lorwyn and kors in Zendikar who have mountainwalk 09:43:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:44:05 oh wait 09:44:13 mountainwalk doesn't give you a big advantage in goldfish 09:44:19 forget it then 09:46:15 -!- ais523 has quit. 09:46:39 does Painter's Servant affect cards in your sideboard, such as for Glittering Wish? 09:47:11 I'm not sure what the rules are these days. 09:48:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:21:46 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:24:04 -!- GoToTell has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference). 10:25:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:26:35 Well 10:26:42 I just had a maths lecture in a backless chair 10:26:49 The chair was not designed to be backless 10:26:54 The back was just missing 10:27:44 shocking 10:29:01 -!- boily has joined. 10:29:46 bohaily 10:36:27 Is there a name for fields but without negation 10:36:51 i dunno 10:36:58 for rings there's rigs 10:36:59 Like, say, probabilities 10:37:25 probabilities don't really have addition 10:37:39 1 + 1 isn't a probability 10:37:46 Ah, yes 10:37:53 Like non-negative reals 10:38:33 they're more like a convex whatchamacallit 10:40:26 the non-negatives are a "cone" in the reals iirc, but that doesn't say anything about division, it's a vector space thing. 10:47:11 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:48:22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski%27s_high_school_algebra_problem 10:48:30 Not sure if there's a corresponding thing for fields. 10:48:34 -!- Tefaj has changed nick to Jafet. 10:49:06 ohay 10:49:16 * boily erases that 10:49:29 ohayœ̄rjan gozaimasu! 10:49:31 * oerjan saw nothing 10:49:39 . o O ( damn enter key in the way ) 10:50:03 just disable it, who needs it anyway 10:51:49 Øhāyo 10:52:50 Jafettermiddag 10:55:13 `? fternooner 10:55:14 fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry. 10:56:35 speaking of pastries, I haven't drank a Fentimans in ages. 10:57:16 what about me, i have _never_ drunk one 10:57:20 (afaik) 10:59:09 Taneb: Tanelle. please ship some to oerjan twh 10:59:41 oerjan: please send address and postage 10:59:42 -!- bender| has joined. 10:59:50 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:59:52 I haven't drank a Fentimans in ages, at least three weeks 11:01:38 I don't want to jump to conclusions too early, but there seems to be a serious impedance mismatch between the two sides of the Great Puddle... 11:01:51 are you sure your ages were properly calibrated last time? 11:02:59 They had the Curiosity Cola in our local grocery supermarket in Finland back a year or two ago, in the "imports" aisle. 11:03:26 I didn't think it was all that good, to be honest. 11:03:32 There's a sandwich shop next to the university which stocks it but you have to go early to get the curiosity cola 11:09:24 -!- scoofy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:12:31 -!- bender| has changed nick to bender. 11:15:16 ais523: so instead of Stifle, you could take Soul Summons to get Phyrexian Dreadnought, but that doesn't work in the three-card variant you were saying, because there you don't have the Dreadnought in your library 11:17:51 ais523: you could use Illusionary Mask (plus Phyrexian Dreadnought and Black Lotus, which amounts for three expensive cards, each of which is on the reserved list, but then, what did you expect from something with the Vintage ban list?) 11:18:32 right, you expect a lot of Vinage-restricted cards to show up 11:19:53 Illusionary Mask isn't restricted in Vintage. It's a crazy broken card in the modern sense, but you have to be broken harder than that to be restricted in Vintage. 11:19:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:20:06 And Phyrexian Dreadnought isn't that broken at all, I think. 11:20:38 I mean, it's strong, with all the blink effects today it would be better to nerf it a bit, but it's not too broken. 11:21:14 No wait, not blink effects. Blink doesn't help for Phyerxian Dreadnought. It helps for Krosan Cloudscraper only. 11:21:51 11:22:37 -!- ais523 has quit. 11:24:08 11:24:32 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 11:25:08 * boily stylishly mapoles fizzie 11:25:59 Just got a spam message saying only, and I quote, "CAN I DISCUSS WITH YOU." 11:29:03 did you discuss with them? 11:29:26 I don't think I will. 11:29:33 It's not even a question; it ends in a period. 11:30:40 There's also an inheritance of "$2.500`000`00USD" waiting for me; that's the weirdest grouping of digits. 11:30:50 Not sure if it's just two and a half dollars or what. 11:32:31 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PECTORAL CHICKEN). 11:39:09 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:47:14 fizzie: most likely 11:49:22 @tell tswett Is sin(a*pi) always an algebraic number when a is a rational number? <-- yes i think so. go via sin(z) = (e^(iz) - e^(-iz))/(2i) and then it's combinations of roots of unity. 11:49:23 Consider it noted. 11:52:46 -!- scoofy has joined. 11:53:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:55:12 -!- JesseH has joined. 11:57:32 -!- scoofy has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:59:33 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 12:02:55 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:17:03 -!- mauris has joined. 12:21:54 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:22:23 -!- FreeFull has quit. 12:22:54 argh. must. not. read. magic. discussion. 12:30:54 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 12:34:08 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:34:19 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 12:34:48 what happens if I do instance Show Foo <-- in the case of Show, you get infinite recursion because two of the methods have defaults in terms of each other. 12:35:52 however, this shouldn't blow stack because they're tail recursions. 12:35:54 -!- mauris has joined. 12:35:58 or wait 12:36:02 are they 12:36:41 ah testing in GHCi you _do_ get a stack overflow. 12:37:55 @src show 12:37:55 show x = shows x "" 12:38:02 @src showsPrec 12:38:02 showsPrec _ x s = show x ++ s 12:38:10 @src shows 12:38:10 Source not found. Are you typing with your feet? 12:38:21 (that's shows = showsPrec 0 iirc) 12:38:46 the ++ s part ruins the tail recursion 12:40:20 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:44:30 oerjan: Thanks. 12:45:37 -!- scoofy has joined. 12:46:46 mroman_: note that a dummy instance like show _ = "" means that "evaluating" a Foo at the GHCi prompt won't actually evaluate it at all. 12:47:26 you might put in a seq, but that'll only evaluate to the top constructor, as usual. 12:48:06 @let data X = X; instance Show X where show = "dummy" 12:48:07 .L.hs:149:16: 12:48:07 Couldn't match expected type ‘X -> String’ 12:48:07 with actual type ‘[Char]’ 12:48:15 @let data X = X; instance Show X where show _ = "dummy" 12:48:16 Defined. 12:48:22 > undefined :: X 12:48:24 dummy 12:49:54 i suppose to test Parsec, it's enough since you get the "Right " printed. 12:50:02 or matched on. 13:11:33 -!- `^_^v has joined. 13:12:53 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:14:12 -!- Wright has joined. 13:19:05 Idea. Jimmy, the esoteric language for cracking corn. 13:20:39 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:26:13 -!- JesseH has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:30:50 [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44604&oldid=44522 * Padarom * (+461) Adding interpreters 13:33:32 -!- Wright has joined. 13:40:20 -!- mauris has joined. 14:01:23 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:02:17 Woo graph morphism 14:04:27 -!- gamemanj has joined. 14:07:00 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:10:54 -!- TieSoul has joined. 14:25:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:26:31 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:32:39 -!- JesseH has joined. 14:38:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:59:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:00:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:01:51 zzo38: an aura with the text "Enchant creature. / Permanents have protection from enchanted creature." would belong to what color? white or blue? 15:21:27 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 15:26:59 -!- bender has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:27:52 -!- bender| has joined. 15:27:53 -!- bender| has quit (Changing host). 15:27:53 -!- bender| has joined. 15:28:22 -!- gamemanj has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:32:30 -!- scoofy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:35:23 -!- mroman_ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 15:43:57 b_jonas: unred hth 15:58:22 -!- augur has joined. 16:10:03 -!- bender| has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:23:21 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 16:25:42 -!- MDude has joined. 16:26:20 Doof, got disconnected last night. 16:29:40 Was about to tell hppavilion[1] that there were already esoteric virtual machines, so using that as the hardware for an esoteric OS project would probably be a good choice. 16:30:08 Also, mathematical objects are good. 16:32:03 What I think would be nice is a language where the level of abstraction is sort of undefined. 16:32:22 In that everything has a primary and optional secondary definition. 16:33:09 The primary definitions are all in terms of other things that have primary definitions, and the secondary ones actually describe the object for a specific hardware implementation. 16:33:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:34:58 But the interpreter is free to ignore the secondary definitions in favor of the primary ones as much as it wants, even going in multiple loops. 16:36:33 Since its choice of primary or secondary definition is undefined beyond "try to avoid leaking user level abstractions down to the hardware level while not running too slow". 16:38:25 And the latter can be considered subjective, and depends on available processor speed and memory as well as what situation the computer is being applied in. 16:39:23 And I don't see a reason to start with a different set of circularly definable objects than the oens on WIkipedia's page on mathematical objects. 16:48:41 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:11:04 [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44605&oldid=44405 * 109.190.184.38 * (+141) Adding a link to a tutorial to create a LLVM based brainfuck compiler 17:56:37 b_jonas: I would expect white but I really don't know. 17:59:55 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:33:35 -!- heddwch has changed nick to ehdwdch. 18:36:33 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:39:16 -!- ehdwdch has changed nick to heddwch. 18:49:04 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:53:22 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 19:00:55 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:06:52 -!- llue has joined. 19:08:23 -!- llue has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:08:48 -!- llue has joined. 19:09:25 -!- lleu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:12:50 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:37:18 -!- yorick_ has joined. 19:55:38 -!- XorSwap has joined. 20:01:42 -!- Patashu has joined. 20:10:29 -!- PupUser09822c has joined. 20:10:49 =-O 20:11:20 -!- PupUser09822c has left. 20:12:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:15:41 -!- VictorCL has joined. 20:16:41 what is this channel about? 20:17:13 any developer from sweden here? 20:19:25 `welcome VictorCL 20:19:31 VictorCL: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 20:19:34 `? sweden 20:19:35 Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize. 20:20:50 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 20:21:10 hehe 20:21:23 I want to design an OS based on Druidic beliefes 20:21:25 *beliefs 20:21:26 I am a web developer and I am moving to sweden next year and I would like info about on how to find a job there 20:21:51 Instead of the Desktop Metaphor, it would be based around the Henge Metaphor 20:22:47 I-don't-remember-who-it-was was collecting geographical coordinates of channel regulars, not sure if that list's in any way up to date, or available anywhere. 20:23:53 fizzie: Is that a very long nick or do you ACTUALLY not remember their name? 20:23:54 -!- idris-bot has joined. 20:24:04 I'd guess it's too long to actually be a nick, so... 20:24:08 I actually don't remember their name. Except that it was boily. 20:24:11 Ah 20:24:12 xD 20:24:19 (Checked them logs.) 20:24:36 -!- mauris has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:24:46 http://lpaste.net/567927726028095488 20:24:49 What other kind of metaphors could be used? 20:25:04 I usually assume that all nordic countries are represented here, but am not sure 20:25:20 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:25:35 int-e: I couldn't name anyone from Denmark or Iceland offhand. 20:26:49 what esoterric programming language? 20:26:54 esoteric* 20:27:01 sounds like some porn stuff 20:27:06 esoteric :P 20:27:15 @metar LOWI 20:27:16 LOWI 062020Z 23003KT 160V300 9999 RA SCT060 BKN070 14/12 Q1011 NOSIG 20:27:28 -!- mauris has joined. 20:28:23 VictorCL: Are you asking what an Esolang is? 20:28:43 hppavilion[1] maybe .. dont know about esolang either :P 20:28:59 -!- mauris_ has joined. 20:29:00 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language 20:29:08 VictorCL: That link should explain it all 20:30:10 ok I see 20:30:53 so if you have lot of free time you get into esoteric programming? 20:31:47 -!- gamemanj has joined. 20:31:57 It's a hobby for most people... 20:32:03 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:32:12 VictorCL: Basically, yes. We kind of overdo it xD 20:36:14 There's also a connection to research in theoretical computer science (more specifically computability theory, where people are interested, among other things, in minimal Turing-complete formalisms) 20:36:20 I'm trying to come up with an esoteric basis for UI metaphors... 20:37:15 Class is now over for me. 20:37:17 Moving on. 20:37:24 -!- XorSwap has joined. 20:38:44 hppavilion[1]: easy, brain waves ;) 20:38:44 in fact it's an opportunity to join forces with the OTHER kind of esoterica... I'm afraid... let's pretend I never wrote this 20:39:15 hi a ^= b; b ^= a; a ^= b; 20:39:24 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:40:02 -!- mauris has joined. 20:40:11 XorSwap: how's your friend, a -= b; b += a; a = b - a? 20:40:19 -!- gde33|2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:42:23 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:43:03 -!- VictorCL has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 20:43:10 boring as ever 20:43:36 bitwise 1 << 3 20:43:39 life 20:43:54 -!- fowl has quit (*.net *.split). 20:43:54 -!- Frooxius has quit (*.net *.split). 20:43:54 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split). 20:43:54 -!- clog has quit (*.net *.split). 20:43:54 -!- ocharles__ has quit (*.net *.split). 20:43:54 -!- izabera has quit (*.net *.split). 20:43:54 -!- staffehn has quit (*.net *.split). 20:43:54 -!- nchambers has quit (*.net *.split). 20:44:14 -!- VictorCL has joined. 20:46:15 -!- Frooxius has joined. 20:46:15 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:46:15 -!- nchambers has joined. 20:46:15 -!- clog has joined. 20:46:15 -!- ocharles__ has joined. 20:46:15 -!- izabera has joined. 20:46:15 -!- staffehn has joined. 20:47:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:53:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:54:43 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:55:11 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Conor O'Brien * New user account 20:55:43 wat 20:56:30 -!- XorSwap has joined. 20:57:10 hm i must be misremembering the name 20:57:17 * oerjan thought that was a haskeller 20:57:25 McBride? 20:57:29 oh right 20:57:36 Conor McBride is tg 20:57:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 20:58:15 [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44606 * Conor O'Brien * (+244) Created page with "Hello! I am an aspiring Mathematics person and programming. I am currently into program language development, ergo, I start with simple, esoteric languages. Thanks for droppin..." 20:58:48 there's also conan, of course. very portmantish. 20:59:26 there's also O'Brien from 1984 20:59:30 he was the best 20:59:50 hm was that the inner party man 21:00:05 yes 21:00:23 oerjan: did you know that you cost me an hour of sleep last night 21:00:28 how so 21:00:55 (mwaha?) 21:00:58 oerjan: I proved in Isabelle that kjoin (kjoin xs) = kjoin (map kjoin xs) but it was messier than I expected 21:01:12 what is kjoin? 21:01:16 heh 21:01:26 ah 21:01:29 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:01:34 should've thought to logcheck 21:01:35 kjoin xs = if [] `elem` xs then [] else concat xs 21:01:54 int-e: um you shouldn't use elem that requires Eq 21:02:21 kjoin xs | any null xs = [] | otherwise = concat xs 21:02:51 shachaf: that's what i had 21:03:02 so it is 21:03:07 oerjan: right, I was translating back from Isabelle, where I had kjoin xss = (if [] ∈ set xss then [] else concat xss) 21:03:17 you shouldn't use booleans because booleans are scow hth 21:03:29 WHAT?! 21:03:46 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:03:56 i think shachaf might be overdoing it 21:04:06 i do think booleans are fairly scow 21:04:13 but i don't see an easy other way of doing it 21:04:21 given haskell's standard library 21:05:21 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:06:08 my followup question now is whether there's any join for [] with the same Applicative that isn't concat when all lists are nonempty. i can show it must be a _permutation_ of concat. 21:06:29 (for any given list of lists.) 21:07:05 also, i think this monad i found is in spirit NonEmptyT Maybe 21:07:18 except NonEmptyT isn't defined anywhere i could find. 21:07:28 oerjan: p. fancy 21:07:35 oerjan: you should mention it to dolio 21:08:10 while the _normal_ list is MaybeT NonEmpty 21:08:25 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:08:25 or wait 21:08:31 maybe not. 21:09:07 [wiki] [[Mineso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44607&oldid=26349 * Hppavilion1 * (-10) Fixed a CN 21:09:22 that seems to give too many empty lists. 21:09:35 [wiki] [[Mineso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44608&oldid=44607 * Hppavilion1 * (-2) Fixed a "fixed" CN 21:10:36 shachaf: i did edit it into an SO answer 21:11:15 ljoin? 21:11:53 I think I'll elaborate on Fungeoid 21:11:56 well ljoin and kjoin are the same. 21:12:23 i suppose i already knew that join wasn't injective 21:13:06 so it makes sense that ljoin = lkjoin even though l /= k 21:13:07 (the "maybe not" was to the MaybeT NonEmpty) 21:13:29 Is it safe to define a fungeoid as having instruction pointer direction, and not necessarily being multidimensional? (such as in Unefunge)? 21:14:08 shachaf: well i just made kjoin to @check that the two version were the same. i think. 21:14:56 hppavilion[1]: Unefunge also needs deltas, i think, so distance as well as direction. 21:15:16 * oerjan doesn't know what happens if you allow only +-1 21:15:26 oerjan: Ah right. Should I make deltas be a required feature or just be a preferred feature 21:16:00 oerjan: Well a funge /could/ be tape-based instead of stack-based (I think), so a Fungeoid could be TC without deltas by making it BF-convertible 21:16:01 well you don't need them if dimension > 1 21:16:30 -!- aretecode has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:16:48 hppavilion[1]: but going between [ and ] in bf is an arbitrary large jump 21:16:56 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:16:57 Oh right xD 21:17:00 Forgot about that 21:17:16 * hppavilion[1] realizes that he forgot about part of BRAINFUCK 21:17:24 * hppavilion[1] bangs his head repeatedly against the wall 21:17:27 your brain is fucked hth 21:17:42 that may not help hth 21:18:00 -!- FreeFull has joined. 21:19:00 -!- aretecode has joined. 21:22:28 oerjan's on a hth... highway to hell 21:23:04 * oerjan jumps 21:23:34 tmnh 21:23:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 21:24:22 this must not happen 21:25:23 http://dancrew2010.deviantart.com/art/TMNH-Design-1-332585425 hth 21:25:41 http://www.deviantart.com/art/Requested-Art-T-M-N-H-352432924 21:25:46 apparently these are quite popular to draw 21:26:14 odd. 21:32:14 -!- yorick_ has changed nick to yorick. 21:41:35 What weird ways to Fungeoids play with Instruction Execution Order? 21:43:35 [wiki] [[Fungeoid]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44609&oldid=22429 * Hppavilion1 * (+4159) Made page good. 21:45:25 You're welcome, internet. You're welcome 21:45:50 * hppavilion[1] vanishes silently into the night, a hero of the city of interwebzopolis 21:46:11 `? internet 21:46:12 internet? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:47:25 . o O ( So tempted to fill that with "The Internet is for porn!" ) 21:47:31 whoa whoa whoa 21:47:36 `thanks 21:47:38 Thanks, ove. Thove. 21:47:42 this feature is tg 21:47:43 `thanks 21:47:44 `thanks 21:47:45 `thanks 21:47:45 Thanks, tamalor. Thamalor. 21:47:46 Thanks, perama. Therama. 21:47:47 Thanks, luption. Thuption. 21:48:06 It's good to have lots of thumption. 21:49:31 Maybe I should fill it with "The Internet is really really great! / I have a fast connection so I don't have to wait! / There's always a new site / I surf all day and night / I'm almost surfing at the speed of light!" and keep it to the reader to fill in the gaps. 21:49:42 s/keep/leave/ (urk) 21:51:22 And of course I may be the only one still remembering that 2003 meme. 21:53:01 And I got the lyrics slightly wrong and I'm talking to myself. 21:54:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 21:54:48 [wiki] [[User talk:Star651]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44610&oldid=25981 * Hppavilion1 * (+104) /* Um. */ new section 21:56:00 What's that game called where the whole goal is to make up new rules? 21:56:47 I wonder if there'll ever be a new Funge xD 21:57:01 (official funge, not fungeoid) 21:59:09 the game is nomic. 22:01:11 RIGHT! 22:01:14 NOMIC! 22:01:26 I tried "Nami" and all I got was NAMI 22:01:27 xD 22:01:51 I kind of want to play a game of nomic 22:01:55 Classes are over for the day 22:01:58 GTG 22:06:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:07:36 Cueball in http://www.xkcd.com/1586/ reminds me to Guy Litter from the StickManStickMan webcomic, who has similar superpowers 22:09:07 also, the Pauli Effect 22:11:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:15:11 -!- XorSwap has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:15:34 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:16:35 -!- Wright has joined. 22:19:02 I'm going to start playing Nomic with some friends 22:20:19 new rule, we shall only discuss nomic in years whose number according to the gregorian calendar is a prime number 22:21:18 AGAINST 22:21:41 `factor 2017 22:21:42 2017: 2017 22:22:37 -!- edwardk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:22:37 oops someone actually spoke in ##nomic but left before we noticed 22:22:41 AGAINST 22:22:55 (it's not very active) 22:27:30 -!- llue has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 22:29:46 There. I started λ-nomic. Now I need players. 22:33:44 [wiki] [[Sacred]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44611 * Conor O'Brien * (+2658) Created page with "'''Sacred''' is a joke esoteric language created by [[User:Conor O'Brien]] that is primarily a [[Brainf***]] derivative, but adds extra commands. It is entirely comprise of th..." 22:36:37 So does anyone feel like playing? 22:38:56 Someone should make a language called "Brainf***" so that all the pages with people afraid of cursing redirect to the wrong page 22:39:05 Bonus points if it's NOTHING like Brainfuck 22:39:20 (I'm talking event-driven combinatory logic different) 22:42:14 *Sigh* 22:45:44 [wiki] [[Omnifuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44612&oldid=40987 * Hppavilion1 * (+28) Reduced size of monolithic opening paragraph 22:46:05 hppavilion[1], i'm formally in favour of anything that prevents brainfuck derivatives 22:46:20 Phantom_Hoover: I know. I say your page. 22:46:35 that's a very old page i can't be bothered to edit 22:46:44 Should we create the ODABD (Organization in Defence Against Brainfuck Derivatives) 22:47:06 i tried delegating my brainfuck derivative hating duties to taneb but the lazy bastard just slacked off 22:47:08 (I've actually made a BF derivative, but it's meant to be potentially useful to someone someday somehow) 22:48:00 (And a language inspired by a rather good brainfuck derivative called Arborealis) 22:49:18 (and a Markup Language that incorporates BF into it) 22:49:28 (Wow, I've done a lot of BF-related things.) 22:49:36 * hppavilion[1] sets aside a brick so Phantom_Hoover doesn't have to 22:51:12 (Oh, and a 2D-brainfuck derivative) 22:51:15 `quote unicycle 22:51:16 1056) I would like to learn how to use a sword And also how to ride a unicycle Perhaps not at the same time \ 1186) learn you a unicycle for great good 22:51:26 I am a small step closer! 22:51:35 (I attended an introduction session at the kendo club) 22:52:45 that won't help you cycling! 22:53:31 I'm OK with BF derivatives if they add something original 22:53:39 Maybe Floatfuck would be OK? 22:53:42 The thing is I can do the two separately, myname 22:54:00 TrivialBrainfuckSubstitutions though... 22:54:04 Those are an abomination 22:54:43 Taneb: it's all a matter of training 22:54:50 Phantom_Hoover: o hai. is this accurate twh http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/151005.html 22:55:29 only for the audible version of the scots wikipedia 22:56:46 -!- boily has joined. 22:57:05 fizziello. did you inherit your $2.50? 22:57:24 What comes after # in the language suffix sequence? 22:57:28 It goes: 22:57:38 , ++, #, ??? 22:57:45 it's probably ascii 22:58:03 oh, that 22:58:15 # is a stack of two ++, therefore it should be three ++ on top of each other. 22:58:31 Oh xD 22:58:36 That explains a lot 22:58:42 Or, perhaps, a 3D # 22:58:49 Ō_Ō... 22:58:52 ow. 22:58:57 not sure about that. 22:59:04 Brainfuck#++? 22:59:09 Objective-Brainfuck? 22:59:22 we could use +- stacked 22:59:27 C#̄̈? 22:59:36 There's the ⁂ (U+2042 ASTERISM) but no PLUSTERISM. 22:59:40 I'm trying to make a BF derivative that could, potentially, be almost /useful/ to someone 22:59:41 Ah 22:59:43 I'll use that.' 23:00:07 [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44613&oldid=44550 * Hppavilion1 * (+332) Added Goal (please don't brick me) 23:00:09 that'll do. it's a stack, there are three thingies, they have spokes. 23:01:05 Yep 23:01:13 I'm making a useful BF derivative. Somehow. 23:01:28 * boily glares extremely suspiciously at hppavilion[1] 23:01:30 Also, I'm commiting war crims 23:01:33 *crimes 23:01:35 `unicode tesseract 23:01:36 No output. 23:01:39 By making a BF derivative 23:01:52 darn 23:02:08 * boily oils, polishes and tunes his mapole for maximum celerity 23:02:16 Worth it. 23:02:44 you have cojones. 23:02:56 Oh. While there's no PLUSTERISM, there is a TRIPLE PLUS -- it's just boring-looking: ⧻ 23:04:08 fizzie: just you wait for some bored Haskeller to use it for arrows. 23:05:35 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:06:13 Perl 6 went live 23:07:26 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA... 23:07:54 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:09:25 [wiki] [[Sacred]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44614&oldid=44611 * Conor O'Brien * (+3216) 23:11:29 [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44615 * Hppavilion1 * (+1799) Started page (will finish later) 23:15:12 `unidecode ⁂ 23:15:13 ​[U+2042 ASTERISM] 23:16:27 [wiki] [[Sacred]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44616&oldid=44614 * Conor O'Brien * (+654) 23:16:27 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:16:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:21:48 [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44617&oldid=44146 * Conor O'Brien * (+97) /* General languages */ 23:26:36 [wiki] [[Sacred]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44618&oldid=44616 * Conor O'Brien * (+5) /* Interpreter */ 23:29:22 [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44619&oldid=44597 * Conor O'Brien * (+362) 23:30:50 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 23:32:46 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:32:59 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 23:37:53 -!- XorSwap has joined. 23:38:18 -!- heddwch has changed nick to indekkusu. 23:39:01 -!- VictorCL has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 23:45:05 -!- edwardk has joined. 23:45:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:50:08 [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44620&oldid=44606 * Conor O'Brien * (+13) /* Languages I have made */ 23:50:22 So, I know BF derivatives are typically bad, etc. etc. 23:50:34 But what if a derivative includes something new and unique? 23:50:42 Say, Functional Programming 23:50:46 (apply, reduce, etc.) 23:51:01 -!- indekkusu has changed nick to heddwch. 23:52:04 I don't think there are any esolangs with an HCF instruction yet. you could always add that. 23:52:07 (mwah ah ah.) 23:52:19 What's HCF? 23:53:16 Wiki: 23:53:24 "The expression "catch fire" in this context is normally facetious, rather than literal - referring to a total loss of CPU functionality during the current session, not physical damage." 23:53:36 /normally/ 23:53:46 normally. there are recorded cases of fire ^^ 23:57:33 So Functional Programming in a BF derivative. Is that supreme enough for it to be an acceptable derivative? 23:57:55 (Assuming that "Acceptable Derivatives" start, at maximum, at around where Arborealis is) 23:58:01 Possibly. 23:58:49 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined.