←2015-10-09 2015-10-10 2015-10-11→ ↑2015 ↑all
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00:20:42 <hppavilion[1]> http://esolangs.org/wiki/XEec claims to be TC, but the proof is pretty dubious
00:22:36 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
00:22:38 <adu> hi
00:22:44 <hppavilion[1]> Hi adu!
00:22:57 <adu> how goes Dr. Hedwig Notta?
00:23:13 <adu> sorry, MetaDr. Hedwig Notta
00:37:48 <\oren\> it should be TC given that you can use 'r' toi rotate one way 'tp' to rotate other way
00:38:43 <\oren\> these can simulkate a tape
00:42:54 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Well he died 15+6i years from now, so...
01:01:29 <adu> I thought it was 2025+Sqrt(-2)
01:02:08 <adu> but either way, that's impossible to map to our linear timeline
01:03:25 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to know the solution to the halting problem for hypercomputers
01:03:56 <hppavilion[1]> Bascially, is there an abstract super-turing machine that can solve a TM's halting problem AND its own?
01:05:03 <zzo38> I think it is impossible, but, I don't know?
01:06:27 <hppavilion[1]> Ooooh...
01:06:36 <hppavilion[1]> NDFSMs sound interesting
01:06:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44664&oldid=44663 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (+133)
01:12:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the proof of the halting theorem only assumes that you can compose programs in certain ways, and absolutely nothing about the computational power of those programs otherwise. so the only possible loophole for a machine that can solve its own halting problem is that it does not have sufficiently composable programs.
01:12:47 <oerjan> *halting problem theorem
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01:27:19 <zzo38> I think it to be remarkable that Infocom designed the Z-machine in such a way that many strange kinds of optimizations are possible that they never used.
01:31:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Surreal Numbers]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44665 * Hppavilion1 * (+391) Initialized Page
01:33:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44666&oldid=44023 * Hppavilion1 * (+129) /* Mathematics */ SURCOMPLEXES
01:35:42 <zzo38> One trick I use in TeX is that if \xyzzy macro is a loop then you can exit the loop by typing {\let\xyzzy} but how common is this?
01:37:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'd like to point out that all your case are belong to me and will be corrected as i crawl out of the wiki backlog hth
01:38:03 <oerjan> this may, admittedly, take a while.
01:39:00 <oerjan> (upper case in words other than the first is for proper nouns hth)
01:39:37 <hppavilion[1]> If one were to define the Surcomplex numbers, of the form {L0|R0}+{L1|R1}i, would they be defined as the sum of a surreal number and a surreal number times the imaginary unit, or as the sum of a surcomplex number and a surcomplex number times the imaginary unit
01:39:42 <hppavilion[1]> ?
01:40:15 <oerjan> the former probably makes the most sense
01:40:34 <hppavilion[1]> It does, but the latter sounds like it's probably true. Because that's how math works.
01:40:43 <zzo38> Look at the definition of Surcomplex number see if it is found in Wikipedia?
01:40:58 <zzo38> (If not on Wikipedia, try something else)
01:40:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well the latter would be true but not a unique representation.
01:41:26 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I made up the word "Surcomplex" because I needed something to call it
01:41:53 <hppavilion[1]> Oh look
01:41:58 <hppavilion[1]> That's actually what it's called
01:42:04 <hppavilion[1]> It's burried in the wiki article on it
01:42:23 <hppavilion[1]> Yup, a and b are surreals, not surcomplexes
01:42:40 <zzo38> I don't expect it would be called something else; "surcomplex" seem how I would call it too
01:43:04 <oerjan> i assume the surreals are a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_closed_field except for not being a set
01:43:30 <oerjan> and so their algebraic closure would be formed in the same way as for normal reals
01:45:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It appears that way
01:45:32 <hppavilion[1]> Conway's Game of Life is a 0-player game. We can do better than that.
01:45:44 <hppavilion[1]> We must create either a Fractional Player Game or a -1 player game.
01:46:59 <hppavilion[1]> Or a -1/2 player game.
01:47:13 <zzo38> If you can figure out how, then yes.
01:48:41 <hppavilion[1]> Well an n+0.5 player game could potentially be created by allowing someone to interact who is not strictly participating in the game
01:49:06 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that could make D&D an n+0.5 player game, where n is the number of players other than the dungeon master
01:49:14 * hppavilion[1] has now exhausted his knowledge of D&D
01:49:51 <zzo38> I would not expect it though; the dungeon master is also one of the players of the game, although it is not a formal game so it doesn't matter anyways.
01:53:13 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a euler diagram of number systems. For some reason, that sounds like it'd be more fun than it should be.
01:54:15 <hppavilion[1]> What's the value of a number with a fractional exponent where the numerator of such exponent is not 1?
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01:56:38 <oerjan> a^(p/q) is the qth root of a^p hth
01:58:05 <oerjan> p/q should be in lowest terms.
01:58:18 <shachaf> a^(p/q) is (the qth root of a)^p hth
01:58:25 <oerjan> there'll still be multiple complex solutions
01:58:36 <oerjan> shachaf: um...
01:58:56 <shachaf> i guess parentheses weren't implied one way or the other in what you said
01:59:21 <oerjan> well they were. is your version more defined...
01:59:26 <shachaf> no
01:59:30 <shachaf> never mind
01:59:35 <shachaf> this did not work out at all
01:59:54 <oerjan> it should work fine for complex numbers
02:00:08 <shachaf> the attempt at some sort of humor
02:00:13 <oerjan> but your version may not need p/q in lowest terms
02:00:33 <oerjan> if it is, then they're probably equivalent?
02:00:42 <shachaf> why does your version need lowest terms?
02:00:52 <shachaf> ah
02:00:52 <oerjan> 2/2
02:01:20 <oerjan> 1^(2/2) could be -1 otherwise
02:01:33 <shachaf> well, the square root function isn't even defined on negative numbers
02:01:54 <shachaf> hmm
02:01:59 <oerjan> i'm not taking square root of anything negative
02:01:59 <shachaf> that's not what i meant to say
02:02:04 <shachaf> square root isn't even a function
02:02:18 <oerjan> i told you there would be multiple complex solutions
02:02:38 <shachaf> just ignore everything i've said here for the past hour
02:02:49 <shachaf> look
02:02:49 <oerjan> i suppose e^(p/q*ln a) is also good
02:03:01 <oerjan> and probably equivalent
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02:03:59 <oerjan> s/e^/exp/
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02:04:14 <shachaf> ok this doesn't work either
02:04:16 <shachaf> i'm trapped
02:04:24 <oerjan> mwahahaha
02:04:57 <shachaf> look the point is i want sqrt(a)sqrt(b) = sqrt(ab)
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02:08:16 <\oren\> font updated! only 6 characters but I did a lot of work to unglitch the width 夢羅針饂飩檎
02:08:49 <shachaf> What is the mindset that leads to questions like http://stackoverflow.com/q/33049458 ?
02:10:37 <\oren\> looks like typical devout onelinerism
02:11:06 <\oren\> he wants to express the twoliner as a oneliner
02:11:28 <hppavilion[1]> What'd be a good modern substitute for TeX?
02:11:34 <\oren\> LaTeX
02:11:41 <shachaf> I mean the mixup of forall and exists
02:11:44 <shachaf> And of => and *>
02:11:58 <shachaf> This person wants to write [exists a. Show a *> a]
02:12:03 <hppavilion[1]> I read a post where a Mathematician said that it'd be nice if we had a modern text
02:12:20 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Wut.
02:12:30 <hppavilion[1]> [exists a. Show a *> a]
02:12:35 <\oren\> then it's nrtm
02:12:43 <\oren\> he dnrtfm
02:12:57 <shachaf> it's not really the moment for that
02:12:59 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know what *> means, but I know that using exists there is awful
02:13:11 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, what's ntrm and dnrtfm?
02:13:22 <\oren\> did not read the fucking manual
02:13:27 <shachaf> *> isn't real Haskell (or GHC) syntax, but it would be the dual of => in the way that exists is the dual of forall
02:13:55 <hppavilion[1]> Non Tabacco Related Material?
02:13:58 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Ah
02:14:56 <\oren\> wait, i thought it was spelled "tobacco"
02:15:06 <hppavilion[1]> It is
02:15:09 <hppavilion[1]> I spelled it wrong
02:15:12 <hppavilion[1]> xD
02:15:15 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe
02:16:32 <\oren\> hmm. in C, a+>b should be the same as (**a).b
02:16:47 <zzo38> I happen to like TeX; it is good as it is and the modern stuff isn't quite as good
02:16:50 <\oren\> that would have been very helpful today
02:17:26 <\oren\> I wrote my resume in LaTeX
02:17:56 <zzo38> TeX is already very good. There are a lot of modern programs which you can use (including LaTeX) but I don't like them as much (nevertheless, you can use it if it is available, if you want to do so).
02:18:26 <\oren\> I mainly use LaTeX so I can use the $$ equation $$ syntax
02:19:13 <zzo38> The $$ syntax (called display math) is supported in Plain TeX too; it is a primitive feature of TeX
02:26:12 <zzo38> Do you even know how to use TeX? If you do not know, then you must learn.
02:27:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> What is the mindset that leads to questions like http://stackoverflow.com/q/33049458 ? <-- an inability to understand quantifiers beyond the syllogism stage. it might well be a majority human condition hth
02:28:04 <shachaf> oerjan: But people seem to make this particular confusion a lot.
02:31:54 <oerjan> well it adds double negation to the mix
02:31:55 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Of course TeX is good, but it's old. Here's the idea: If we manage to make a new and better TeX replacement, Awesome! Mathematical writing is now easier! If we make one that's worse, oh well, no one uses it, but it was fun to write
02:33:10 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Well, you are free to try to make up new computer program; I have nothing against that. Nevertheless some people might prefer TeX even if you like the new one, but even if a few people can use it, or at least to see the codes, then it is not so useless, isn't it?
02:33:11 <hppavilion[1]> What kind of format could we use for typesetting mathematics that hasn't been done before (TeX did a sort of infix function notation, MathML did XML)
02:33:34 <zzo38> RDF maybe?
02:33:36 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Of course, of course. That's what I'm going for
02:33:40 <hppavilion[1]> RDF is an idea...
02:33:40 <oerjan> sexps of course
02:33:55 <zzo38> Or alternatively JSON, or S-expressions as oerjan has said
02:33:59 <hppavilion[1]> sexps? perhaps...
02:34:28 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to go to Wiki and see what it has to say on formats
02:35:16 <hppavilion[1]> YAML maybe
02:35:43 <zzo38> That is another possibility too
02:36:51 <hppavilion[1]> I could do something entirely new
02:37:10 <zzo38> Maybe even SQL
02:37:13 <hppavilion[1]> {tag arg var=arg arg: data}
02:37:14 <hppavilion[1]> Ooooh
02:37:21 <hppavilion[1]> That'd be cool
02:38:05 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that which I just posted is HTMLtaggy JSON with positional arguments
02:38:48 <hppavilion[1]> s/HTML/XML /
02:41:34 <hppavilion[1]> Meh. I'll just do something normal for now. I'd like to figure out how to render stuff /before/ I start doing it weirdly
02:41:50 <zzo38> But all of these things being specified could also be represented with RDF (or even with each other, although they could be represented best with RDF probably if a common format is used for everything)
02:42:06 <hppavilion[1]> True, true
02:42:45 <zzo38> Whatever you do make, see if it is as powerful as TeX
02:42:50 <hppavilion[1]> I'll just do something LaTeXy to learn how to render, then something new when I know what I'm doing
02:42:59 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: TC you mean? ;)
02:43:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'll call it... FormulaML for now
02:43:43 <zzo38> That isn't quite what I mean
02:44:11 <hppavilion[1]> I know xD
02:45:04 <zzo38> TeX isn't only for mathematics, anyways. I use it for many kind of typesetting stuff
02:45:29 <hppavilion[1]> I know
02:45:38 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm most interested in the mathy stuff xD
02:46:39 <hppavilion[1]> So do you have any syntax ideas? It's starting out like normal TeX, with \functionname{stuff}{stuff}, but it'll evolve from there
02:47:19 <zzo38> I find normal TeX syntax fine, and pretty flexible
02:47:55 <hppavilion[1]> OK. This'll probably just end up being my own take on TeX xD
02:49:07 <hppavilion[1]> I have no clue how typesetting works, so this'll really just be me bumbling my way around. Like, to the degree that I will make up my own font format most likely
02:49:11 <hppavilion[1]> Or maybe not
02:49:39 <zzo38> Just use the .TFM format for fonts
02:49:50 <hppavilion[1]> OK
02:50:17 <hppavilion[1]> Or maybe just fonts existent on the system. This'll probably be interpreted, with it just painting to a canvas
02:50:23 <zzo38> There are a few things with TeX that could be improved, such as using stdin/stdout so that the DVI is written to stdout instead of to a file and so on, as well as allowing error handlers to be defined, although TeX also works very well as it is and can do without such thing.
02:52:53 <hppavilion[1]> I'll keep thinking about this.
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02:54:58 <zzo38> When I mention "as powerful as TeX", Turing-completeness isn't sufficient because Turing-complete only has to do with what calculations it can perform rather than how it can be used in the program and with I/O.
02:56:41 <zzo38> For example, can you parse PGN with your system? (I have written a PGN and FEN parser in TeX. I have written a PBM parser too.)
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03:01:49 <hppavilion[1]> I still want to see a programming language that accepts images as it's source, but Vector instead of Raster
03:02:28 <hppavilion[1]> I just found an amazing idea on the Ideas page. An esolang that is a derivative of itself (ideally in a way that makes it possible to deduce most of its semantics via induction, despite the lack of a base case).
03:02:34 <hppavilion[1]> SCIENTISTS! INVESTIGATE!
03:07:56 <\oren\> where's boily?! 夢羅針饂飩檎麻鼻麺麦鳴高駅
03:08:07 <pikhq> Same place as elliott?
03:08:25 <\oren\> @tell boily 羅針饂飩檎
03:08:25 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
03:08:37 <\oren\> he requested those five
03:22:30 <zzo38> The next thing I wanted to figure out is how to make ephemeris calculations using TeX (with an external data file if necessary)
03:24:29 <zzo38> Even if it is ephemerides for only the sun and moon, it would be sufficient to print a calendar; if you had all ephemerides (and the necessary fonts) you could print a horoscope too.
03:25:44 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll add the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Π-calculus to LIME
03:26:24 <zzo38> OK
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03:35:03 <oren> changed to connect thru my server instead of locally
03:35:52 <oren> - hexedit the width at 0x122 to be 0240 and correct the checksum for the OS/2 ta
03:35:55 <oren> ble- hexedit the width at 0x122 to be 0240 and correct the checksum for the OS/2 ta
03:37:11 <oren> holy shit this new windows terminal has transparency@?!?
03:37:19 <oren> PieTTY
03:40:46 <oren> bah, too hard to read
03:42:36 <izabera> i need to know how you decide whether to be called \oren\ or oren
03:43:02 <oren> In this case, it just took my username on my server
03:43:32 <oren> and made that my nick by default
03:43:45 <oren> but I like backslashes
03:47:44 -!- oren has changed nick to \oren\.
03:48:19 -!- \oren\ has changed nick to \oren{.
03:48:55 <\oren{> now my nick is like a forklift
03:49:07 -!- \oren{ has changed nick to \oren{_.
03:49:20 <\oren{_> forklift
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05:30:35 <\oren{_> Today's recommendation: 干物妹!うまるちゃん
05:59:13 <zzo38> Mostly I don't like transparent windows but I have used it once.
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05:59:49 <zzo38> (In order to draw a copy of a picture into MegaZeux)
06:30:17 <shachaf> olsner: whoalsner
06:34:20 <\oren{_> I have no idea how I came across this terminal, but I like it a lot: http://ntu.csie.org/~piaip/pietty/
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06:40:45 <\oren{_> Phellontellom Helloovellor
06:41:13 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should make a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Π-calculus haskell equivalent
06:42:27 <\oren{_> I think you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/π-calculus
06:42:42 <hppavilion[1]> \oren{_: That's the article.
06:43:47 <\oren{_> wait wtf? the url autocorrects lowercase pi to uppercase, but the article title is lowercase?
06:45:51 <\oren{_> Hmm... so the first letter of wiki urls can be upper or lowercase and it goes to the uppercase version
06:46:09 <\oren{_> but the rest of the url is case-sensitive. assholes
06:47:11 <\oren{_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cat work, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAt is a different article
06:48:09 -!- \oren{_ has changed nick to \oren[_.
06:49:31 <zzo38> That is how MediaWiki software works (although that feature can be disabled)
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07:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not even the most annoying think about mediawiki titles
07:57:30 <Phantom_Hoover> there are a bunch of special characters that you can't use
07:57:55 <Phantom_Hoover> *thing
08:05:12 <izabera> why does the balaclava that's used by robbers have a hole for the mouth?
08:08:50 <Phantom_Hoover> so they can speak clearly?
08:09:23 <izabera> do they need it?
08:09:49 <shachaf> \oren[_: I think the historical justification for it was so that article titles at the beginning of a sentence wouldn't be different from ones in the middle of a sentence.
08:10:00 <shachaf> \oren[_: Why do you keep adding all these characters to your nick?
08:10:08 <shachaf> I wish people would just stick to one nick.
08:10:38 <izabera> seconded
08:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> izabera, well ideally you want to be able to say 'give me all the money' vs. 'mmf mm mm m mmhmm'
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08:15:41 <izabera> there's a guy with a gun and you're a bank director, he points the gun to your head
08:15:55 <izabera> do you need to know exactly what he's looking for?
08:16:13 <izabera> "sorry i don't understand, can you take off your mask please?"
08:17:36 <izabera> "i shaid mmmfh mmh money mmhhfm mothafucka!"
08:18:30 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe he just wants to open an account to deposit the money he robbed from another bank
08:18:40 <Phantom_Hoover> that kind of confusion is what gets people shot
08:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover> also why not have a mouth hole? unless you have a very characteristic mouth you're not going to get identified by it
08:20:18 <izabera> well i dunno, i just thought that it's exposing more than necessary
08:24:08 <zzo38> Or bring typewritten notes, but then it won't help for use of unexpected questions
08:24:45 -!- \oren[_ has changed nick to oren.
08:25:48 <oren> You could also just use a medical mask, those poof outwards from your mouth allowing you to speak fairly clearly
08:26:11 <oren> 件企任伴伝伯伸冗刑判到制奴妹姉始嫌
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08:54:58 <olsner> shachaf: whoa?
08:55:42 <shachaf> you twitted me or something
08:56:14 <olsner> ah, I may have followed you
08:56:34 <shachaf> also apparently you have a name that isn't olsner
08:56:51 <olsner> yes, olsner was already taken
08:57:31 <shachaf> i mean a given name, not a username
08:57:40 <shachaf> anyway
08:57:44 <olsner> ah, yes, my real name is completely unrelated
09:02:58 <oren> my real name is oren
09:05:30 <myname> my real name is not myname
09:06:01 <oren> i think shachafs real name is shachaf, and I'm almost certain oerjan's real name is some orthographic variant of oerjan
09:10:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44667&oldid=44664 * * (+140)
09:10:48 <Taneb> Hmm, I need to contact the correct authorities to help me steal my own bike
09:11:40 <myname> my trick is not to use a lock
09:12:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44668&oldid=44667 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (-4)
09:12:51 <Taneb> I think in my case that would be problematic as it's been on campus for 2 or 3 months now
09:13:10 <Taneb> One of my friends tried to unlock it overnight and broke the key
09:13:18 <myname> :D
09:14:52 <zgrep> Acquire bolt cutters?
09:15:24 <Taneb> Well, the issue is I don't want campus security thinking I'm a bike thief
09:16:01 <zgrep> Any proof that it's your bike?
09:16:08 <zgrep> (Well, if you log into the bike to prove its yours...)
09:16:44 <Taneb> I have half the key (the other half is still in the lock) and it has my surname written on it
09:17:01 <zgrep> The bike or the key?
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09:17:26 <Taneb> The bike
09:17:46 <zgrep> Perhaps campus security has bolt cutters, and maybe your surname written on the bike is enough to verify that it's yours...
09:18:24 <zgrep> Or if it's a TSA lock, you can 3d print the necessary master key.
09:18:43 <Taneb> Issue is the lock was already broken when the key broke
09:19:09 <zgrep> In what was is that an issue?
09:19:12 <zgrep> s/was/way/
09:20:10 <zgrep> What sort of lock is it?
09:21:09 <Taneb> It was one of those D locks, and I think the part of the cylinder that actually blocks it from being opened has snapped off
09:22:26 <zgrep> You could freeze the lock and hit it with a hammer.
09:22:43 <Taneb> Doesn't solve the issue of not wanting to look like a bike theif
09:22:55 <Taneb> I believe the porters have access to tools to remove bikes, anyway
09:23:38 <zgrep> I don't think there's any way not to look like a bike thief without asking somebody such as security to help you with it. You could try to do it discreetly.
09:24:07 <fizzie> You could dress up as a clown.
09:24:09 <Taneb> Or I could ask security
09:24:54 <zgrep> You could dress up as a bike, then hide out with the other bike for a bit, and then when nobody's looking, pounce away and make the miraculous scene of a bike riding another bike.
09:26:05 <fizzie> Even just holding a sign saying "I AM NOT A BIKE THIEF" might be enough to make you not look like a bike thief, I don't think they generally want to attract attention.
09:26:05 <zgrep> Well, that's all the advice I seem to have available, and thus I shall comatose for a few hours, perhaps hallucinate vividly too, and then suffer amnesia about the whole thing.
09:26:15 <zgrep> Hahah.
09:26:27 <Taneb> Goodnight, zgrep
09:26:52 <fizzie> (Although it might make you look like a bike thief with a clever plan.)
09:27:10 <Taneb> Or I could sit here and learn LaTeX
09:27:53 <int-e> \documentclass{zZzZ}
09:29:20 <int-e> The GG website seems to be undergoing some maintenance? Sigh.
09:53:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * M654z * New user account
09:56:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44669&oldid=44525 * M654z * (+9)
09:57:56 <int-e> that edit seems a bit premature...
10:05:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[G*]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44670 * M654z * (+763) Created page with "G* is an esoteric programming language made by [[User:M654z]] in 2015. G* was originally designed for code golfing. ===Commands=== p - Prints text q - Creates a quine l - Loo..."
10:06:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[G*]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44671&oldid=44670 * M654z * (+9)
10:06:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[G*]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44672&oldid=44671 * M654z * (+8)
10:06:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[G*]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44673&oldid=44672 * M654z * (+10)
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13:08:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44674&oldid=44668 * Flawr * (+114)
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13:19:41 <int-e> G* looks like it mimics the HQ9 family of languages (a case of parallel evolution, maybe).
13:24:20 <myname> looks pretty useless
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13:57:51 <int-e> . o O ( As I said... )
13:58:16 <myname> i like how the l command is practically useless
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14:36:09 <boily> `wisdom
14:36:10 <HackEgo> drone sex/Drone sex has never been observed in the wild; in fact it's rare to see drones in their natural habitat because they are extremely shy. Controlled experiments with drones in captivity have only resulted in broken drones, and a rotor stuck in the ceiling. We are still looking for a biological explanation for the ever increasing drone popul
14:36:15 <boily> @massages-loud
14:36:15 <lambdabot> \oren\ said 11h 27m 49s ago: 羅針饂飩檎
14:36:59 <boily> @tell \oren\ ありがとうございます!
14:37:00 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
14:51:49 <gamemanj> "a biological explaination for the ever increasing drone population"? Such a thing exists?
14:54:07 <int-e> wisdom is always factually accurate
14:56:03 <int-e> `` culprits wisdom/drone\ sex # disclosure
14:56:05 <HackEgo> int-e mroman
15:02:33 <int-e> `` sed -i 's=Controlled e=E=' wisdom/drone\ sex
15:02:35 <HackEgo> No output.
15:23:49 <gamemanj> But how on earth would drone birth work?
15:24:06 <gamemanj> Do they carry little 3d-printer filaments?
15:26:32 <int-e> gamemanj: sounds plausible
15:29:07 <Jafet> Motherships...
15:30:52 <gamemanj> So... do they 3d-print little parts, and then they attach them all together? What about the microchips?
15:31:29 <gamemanj> Oh... of course. That's another reason it wouldn't work in captivity, either... they wouldn't have anywhere to steal them from.
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15:50:05 <FreeFull> `tail -c 100 wisdom/drone\ sex
15:50:05 <HackEgo> tail: 100 wisdom/drone\ sex: invalid number of bytes
15:50:08 <FreeFull> `run tail -c 100 wisdom/drone\ sex
15:50:09 <HackEgo> eiling. We are still looking for a biological explanation for the ever increasing drone population.
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16:15:56 <b_jonas> ] 4*(_1+3*3)*2*2
16:15:57 <evalj> b_jonas: 128
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17:26:55 <\oren\> @messages-loud
17:26:55 <lambdabot> boily said 2h 49m 56s ago: ありがとうございます!
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17:35:02 <Taneb> Sometimes, due to my social awkwardness, I forget that I'm actually quite extroverted
17:35:17 <Taneb> I mean, compared to introverts, at least
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17:35:31 <myname> that may depend on the definition imo
17:36:11 <Taneb> I guess
17:36:13 <myname> i.e. there seem to be something like "extroverts are good at talking to people" as opposed to "introverts feel most comfortable alone"
17:36:32 <Taneb> I don't think those two are mutually exclusive
17:36:43 <myname> exactly that's my point
17:36:55 <myname> i don't feel lile belonging to any of these
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17:45:44 <b_jonas> Taneb: there's that joke that an introverted mathematician is one who looks at their own shoes when he's talking to someone, and an extroverted one is one who looks at the addressed person's shoes.
17:46:03 <Taneb> :D
17:49:08 <myname> i know that one with computer scientists
17:49:13 <myname> it may be more true there
17:51:45 <Taneb> Well, yesterday I facilitated a bar crawl for CS students
17:52:56 <b_jonas> myname: probably both, yes
17:54:11 <Taneb> Some people seemed to be both computer scientists AND social!
17:54:45 <zzo38> What is it call the mathematician who look at both people's shoes in order to compare?
17:55:11 <myname> Taneb: well, people do believe i am.social
17:55:21 <Taneb> zzo38: ambivert
17:55:27 <myname> i ave no idea why they do think so, tbh
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18:35:50 <boily> `wisdom
18:35:52 <HackEgo> delve/Delve is a static ability that functions while the spell with delve is on the stack. “Delve” means “For each generic mana in this spell’s total cost, you may exile a card from your graveyard rather than pay that mana.” The delve ability isn’t an additional or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with
18:36:07 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/delve
18:36:08 <HackEgo> tswett
18:36:29 <boily> tswett: tswellott. I think the text cuts off prematurely.
18:39:08 <boily> `wisdom
18:39:09 <HackEgo> urbandictionary/Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
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18:45:51 <myname> except when you are looking at space docking
18:47:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44675&oldid=44674 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (+243)
18:48:35 <boily> mynamello. space docking?
18:48:59 <gamemanj> containerizing the universe... brilliant idea, myname!
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18:51:04 <myname> b_jonas: i dare you to urbandictionary it
18:51:13 <myname> boily: i meant you
18:51:17 <myname> wtf irssi
18:51:51 <boily> I have the same problem. oerjan and olsner are the same person, as are mauris and mroman.
18:52:08 <b_jonas> boily: what? isn't oerjan the same person as oren?
18:52:16 <b_jonas> or is that no longer since he uses the nick \oren\ ?
18:52:22 <boily> I ain't be urbandictionnarying no word. my expertise lays with recording the Wisdom.
18:53:40 <boily> \oren\ has backslashes, so they seceded from the oerljansner fusion.
18:58:33 <\oren\> yeah it is an advantage of having backslashed
18:59:28 <int-e> an escaped oren!
18:59:57 <myname> i disagree
19:05:23 <\oren\> `? csv
19:05:24 <HackEgo> CSV猫stands猫for猫Cat猫Separated猫Values
19:05:46 <gamemanj> hmm... needs more emoji
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19:08:52 <\oren\> hijarcane
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19:09:34 <\oren\> hij_arcane
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19:53:06 <burraelicanaima7> :-D
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20:09:31 <tswett> Y'know, Magic seems to have a lot of things that are similar to alternative cost.
20:09:42 <coppro> like?
20:10:20 <tswett> Well, there's "as an alternative cost, you may do X"; "you may pay this cost by doing X"; and "you may do X instead of paying this cost".
20:10:33 <myname> http://amzn.to/13VVqS2 wat
20:10:39 <tswett> IIUC, Phyrexian mana symbols use the second option, and Delve uses the third.
20:11:08 <tswett> Actually, let me double-check Delve.
20:12:07 <tswett> Looks like I'm wrong. http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Delve says: "Exiling a card this way is simply another way to pay that cost."
20:12:36 <zzo38> I think delve doesn't change the cost (so you can still activate mana abilities even if it can be paid without mana), but Phyrexian mana requires you to choose at the beginning (as you are choosing the modes) whether the cost will be life or mana.
20:15:01 <tswett> Is that so?
20:15:22 <coppro> no, that changed
20:17:10 <zzo38> Changed into what?
20:17:47 <hppavilion[1]> Hellu
20:18:01 <b_jonas> tswett: note that some of the remainder text, such as the new reminder text for the Con-thingy mechanic of Selesnya, may be abbreviated to use templating the rules text wouldn't normally do.
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20:27:07 <\oren\> Bad kerning as a sound change: e.g. /cl/ → /d/, /vv/ → /w/, or, more spectacularly, /rri/ → /m/ (the origin of the infamous “hurrianist–humanist” merger).
20:29:03 <hppavilion[1]> So I have bluetooth, powerful data manipulation libraries, touchscreen control, amazing hardware-accellerated GUI, server software, the Skype API, etc. All in python.
20:29:15 <hppavilion[1]> Now I need to think of something to do with my evil technology
20:29:38 <hppavilion[1]> (oh, also, text-to-speech, hotkeys, and sending keypresses to the OS)
20:30:06 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I could find something for speech recognition and roll my own Programmer's Siri?
20:30:34 <coppro> zzo38: you can pay for phyrexian mana with either life or mana
20:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> Or perhaps I could work on Junction
20:31:24 <coppro> \oren\: +1
20:32:03 <\oren\> note I didn't invent that, I saw it as a search result for bad kerning rri m
20:32:24 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, but it is rule 601.2b says how to figure out Phyrexian mana, but delve is figured out during 601.2h, that is what the rules says, isn't it?
20:33:55 <zzo38> Maybe Yawgatog has not been updated; the last rule updates are from 2015 July 17
20:34:46 <tswett> \oren\: I've seen that blog.
20:34:53 <tswett> I've contributed a few ideas to it.
20:35:56 <tswett> Let's see, which ideas of mine do I still like?
20:36:07 <tswett> "Consonants are written on one side of the paper, vowels on the other."
20:36:13 <tswett> "The writing system only indicates prosody, not consonants or vowels."
20:36:26 <tswett> "A conversation consists of a game of Go. Anyone who can’t communicate clearly while still playing at at least a 10 kyu level is considered uneducated."
20:36:37 <tswett> "Every phoneme is a chord. The language can only be spoken by at least three people in tandem (or one person with an appropriate musical instrument). Everyone always carries around a tuning fork to use as a pitch reference, for correct understanding."
20:37:24 <myname> i like the last one
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20:43:08 <b_jonas> "Consonants are written on one side of the paper, vowels on the other." -- that one can basically happen with some languages if you rotate the paper and write only one line, I think.
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20:43:50 <b_jonas> "A conversation consists of a game of Go. Anyone who can’t communicate clearly while still playing at at least a 10 kyu level is considered uneducated." -- hehe, nice
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20:45:07 <b_jonas> I don't know about go, but "A conversation consists of <activity>. Anyone who can't communicate clearly while <showing a great feat in that activity> is considered uneducated." is a great template, you can have a lot of languages and programming languages on that theme.
20:45:51 <b_jonas> Such as, chef and Shakespear which are esolangs where the programs pretend to be something else but also contain steganographed instructions for the program.
20:46:14 <b_jonas> Or speaking natural languages constrained to some particular poetic form.
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21:03:55 <zzo38> Another idea of Magic: the Gathering cards, this one being a land card: Can be played from your sideboard. ;; {T}, Sacrifice ~: Add {1} to your mana pool.
21:05:29 <zzo38> Can be played from your sideboard. ;; ~ comes into play tapped. ;; {T}, Sacrifice ~: Add {1} to your mana pool.
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21:11:23 <int-e> do not play more than one ~ from the sideboard per round?
21:11:43 <int-e> hmm, I guess "turn" is the term
21:12:15 <zzo38> It is a land, so you cannot play more than one land per turn at all
21:12:23 <int-e> duh. right
21:12:46 <ais523> zzo38: what is this card? note that even if it comes into play tapped and produces {1}, it is probably still brokenly powerful
21:14:31 <zzo38> Yes, probably, but if it is restricted or banned then how powerful is it?
21:14:55 <ais523> if it's banned then it doesn't matter how powerful it is (see: Contract from Below)
21:15:07 <ais523> if it's restricted, I imagine nearly all decks would play one copy
21:15:35 <zzo38> Even if restricted or banned doesn't prevent you from using it if it is drafted though.
21:15:44 <ais523> (note: I'm currently assuming: "Land. You may play ~ from outside the game. ~ enters the battlefield tapped. {T}: Add {1} to your mana pool.")
21:15:58 <ais523> no, banned works on drafted cards too I think
21:16:11 <ais523> but different formats have different banlists
21:16:16 <ais523> and most banlists are aimed at constructed formats
21:16:33 <zzo38> I don't think so; banned cards are allowed in limited formats.
21:16:52 <zzo38> (I think they once prebanned a card, probably for this reason.)
21:17:00 <ais523> zzo38: I don't think Contract from Below would be allowed in Alpha draft
21:17:14 <ais523> also they once prebanned Memory Jar, but not because they wanted it for Draft only
21:17:22 <ais523> it's because they only realised how brokenly powerful it was after it had already been printed
21:17:34 <ais523> I'm not even sure Draft was an officially supported format at the time
21:18:24 <pikhq> As I understand it, even if it were "legal" in Alpha draft, you'd remove it from your library before you began playing.
21:18:26 <zzo38> If you are playing an Alpha draft without ante then of course Contract from Below is disallowed.
21:18:32 <pikhq> Because ante.
21:18:36 <ais523> pikhq: right
21:18:44 <ais523> wouldn't that still let you run less than 40 cards though?
21:18:58 <pikhq> I... don't know.
21:19:09 <zzo38> ais523: Depend how it is checked; I would expect that it does not allow
21:19:16 <ais523> (admittedly this is a somewhat moot point, because it seems unlikely that anyone will be able to collect enough Alpha boosters into one place at once to be able to draft it)
21:19:50 <zzo38> Unless you use proxies, but in that case it is unofficial and you can define other tournment rules too
21:20:21 <pikhq> Every now and then an unopened *box* of Alpha shows up.
21:20:55 <zzo38> A variant rule can be you can play it, but the ante zone starts empty; if you play Contract from Below and then lose, your opponent has that card for the remainder of the current match only and then after that your score is decreased by the anted card's value.
21:21:25 <\oren\> mAbE I Sud start wRkiG on a gramR riform tU gO wiT mI speliG riform
21:21:39 <int-e> Does m:tg have cards that can be played from outside the game (without playing a wish-like card in game first)?
21:21:55 <zzo38> Another strangely idea is a card that can be played from the ante zone.
21:22:09 <pikhq> Not to my knowledge, unless you count Un-.
21:22:39 <zzo38> (Or that has a static ability that works from the ante zone)
21:22:47 <ais523> pikhq: I don't think Un- does either
21:23:04 <zzo38> (Or triggered)
21:23:07 <pikhq> ais523: Well, except there are cards in Un- that effect *other games*.
21:23:10 <ais523> people keep mentioning Cheatyface, but the designers have consistently said that its ability only works from hand
21:23:19 <ais523> pikhq: right, but they aren't played into those games
21:23:21 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know if maybe Extra Pulled does, even if Unglued and Unhinged don't?
21:23:23 <ais523> they just affect them
21:23:51 <pikhq> Mmm, true.
21:32:06 <zzo38> The Gatherer comments for Contract from Below mention another variant for ante, a bit similar to my own but not quite
21:33:36 <b_jonas> good night now
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21:37:41 <ais523> clever idea from comp.lang.c: «#include "/dev/zero"»
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21:38:50 <zzo38> Is that to ensure it is UNIX?
21:39:03 <zzo38> Or to try to crash the compiler?
21:39:20 <b_jonas> ais523: what does that do?
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21:39:30 <zzo38> Or to compare what different compilers do when including such a device file?
21:39:36 <zzo38> Containing zero?
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21:39:44 <ais523> b_jonas: on many compilers, it crashes the compiler
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21:39:51 <ais523> because it tries to read the entirety of /dev/zero into memory
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21:40:41 <zzo38> I suggested, to see what different compilers do, different compilers might do different things, including some might crash, some might ignore it, or some might display an error message.
21:41:09 <b_jonas> Gcc gives an out of memory error message in at least some cases.
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21:46:36 <hppavilion[1]> Why not a generalization of the sets where the size of a set can be any real number?
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21:51:36 <hppavilion[1]> a is the letter of the alphabet at index 1. We should invent an esoteric letter at index zero. It should already exist in unicode
21:51:44 <hppavilion[1]> The space, perhaps?
21:51:50 <fizzie> @ is the usual choice.
21:51:55 <hppavilion[1]> OK
21:52:10 <ais523> yes, @
21:52:20 <int-e> hmpf, what's the lower case @...
21:52:33 <ais523> int-e: `
21:52:38 <int-e> right.
21:52:48 <fizzie> `! c printf("%c", 'A' - 1);
21:52:49 <HackEgo> ​@
21:53:05 <ais523> @ is way better known though for some reason
21:53:17 <fizzie> I think because it's the ^@.
21:53:20 <int-e> you see ^@ ...
21:53:32 <int-e> ... a lot :P
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21:53:58 <myname> huh?
21:54:01 <fizzie> Huh.
21:54:17 <fizzie> zemhill: Where did you come from?
21:54:29 <fizzie> fungot: Do you know anything about what happened to your friend?
21:54:29 <fungot> fizzie: you and whose army, been run out of by a rampaging mob wielding weapons back her up, she'll be back in two days, and they're real i tell you! they've all been targeted!
21:54:42 <int-e> ^prefixes
21:54:42 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
21:54:44 <ais523> now we'll have to improvise BF Joust programs to keep it happy
21:55:06 <ais523> !bfjoust test >>+++++<+++++<(-)*127(-+)*100000
21:55:09 <int-e> maybe metasepia will return next
21:55:11 <ais523> err, wrong bot
21:55:14 <EgoBot> ​Score for ais523_test: 6.4
21:55:17 <ais523> !zjoust test >>+++++<+++++<(-)*127(-+)*100000
21:55:19 <zemhill> ais523.test: points -11.45, score 11.82, rank 47/47
21:55:50 <fizzie> Oh, it was just a post-netsplit rejoin.
21:56:09 <gamemanj> Um, did EgoBot's reply come before the command to EgoBot... or did the !bfjoust command actually somehow do something?
21:56:34 <ais523> gamemanj: !bfjoust is a command to egobot, !zjoust to zemhil
21:56:35 <ais523> *zemhill
21:56:41 <ais523> they do the same thing (but the two hills are a little different)
21:56:45 <gamemanj> Ah.
21:57:37 <b_jonas> !zjoust test (>-)*8(>[+].[-]([.-])*3.)*29
21:57:37 <zemhill> b_jonas.test: points -23.90, score 6.29, rank 47/47
21:57:47 <int-e> gamemanj: well, you're on 3 different servers... things like that can happen
21:58:46 <gamemanj> int-e: I'm on 3 different servers? What's the third one?
21:58:58 <int-e> gamemanj: ("you" being EgoBot, ais523 and you (gamemanj))
21:59:06 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:59:33 <gamemanj> Oh, servers inside this network.
21:59:43 <gamemanj> I thought there was someone pretending to be me, then!
22:00:02 <int-e> yeah, I could've phrased that better
22:00:03 <ais523> bye evalj
22:00:19 <int-e> (oh, good morning)
22:00:43 <int-e> (it's midnight here)
22:00:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:02:56 <ais523> "Good morning, sir. Good afternoon, madam."
22:08:36 <int-e> fungot
22:08:37 <fungot> int-e: what, the ability to be captured the palladium out, the others. kronsteen v. mcadams oon thu east of paris. made of plaster wasn't the pope! my grandson is seeing the movie! what a tragedy is of use the internet, adam. it could just apply a jolly good. nothing has a bite that big to you, our helpful. ' is phone is still workin' class, guv.
22:09:16 <int-e> jolly good internet...
22:09:19 <int-e> ^style
22:09:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs* jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:09:26 <int-e> oh.
22:09:33 <int-e> makes sense...
22:10:24 <int-e> (that is, the strange mixed vocabulary makes sense, given the mixed nature of the source)
22:11:14 <zzo38> I am trying to make in TeX the comparison of the last few tokens of the expansion of a macro with a the contents of a token list register
22:12:02 <ais523> hmm, so apparently some people have made a BF encoding that doesn't do RLE
22:12:06 <ais523> in an attempt to golf it
22:12:09 <ais523> I fear they are missing the point :-(
22:12:36 <zzo38> (Although it may occur anywhere and does not have to necessarily search only at the end, as the tokens being searched for are guaranteed to only be found at the end if at all.)
22:13:28 <int-e> ais523: so what did they do, just use 3 bits per operation?
22:13:42 <ais523> int-e: encoded two operations into one ASCII character
22:14:06 <ais523> not even with an attempt to adjust for probability
22:14:10 <ais523> or markov-probability
22:14:17 <int-e> including +- -+ <> >< I suppose
22:15:02 <int-e> (you could *naturally* use these for +++ --- <<< and >>>, still ignoring all probabilities)
22:16:55 <ais523> yes, it does have encodings for things like <>
22:17:00 <ais523> while simultaneously acknowledging that they're useless
22:17:09 <int-e> what's the source?
22:17:31 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ShadyAsFuck
22:17:47 <int-e> ah, I could've seen that
22:18:04 -!- boily has joined.
22:18:24 <zzo38> You don't need ][ either
22:18:46 <int-e> ah, right.
22:18:55 <zzo38> (except for comments, although it don't work so well in here anyways.)
22:20:08 <int-e> I guess just adding some characters that mean [-] and encode runs of +->< up to length 8 would turn it into a decent encoding.
22:21:22 <int-e> (I chose 8 because then it should still fit into the printable ASCII range)
22:22:50 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:22:54 <int-e> But I missed the last column. That's actually a nice touch - having +-<>[]., stand for themselves (paired with a nop).
22:26:01 <int-e> so 72 characters taken, of which 5 are useless, so 28 "free" printable characters (avoiding DEL)... yeah that's enough for runs of +-<> of length 3..8.
22:28:08 <int-e> hah. "., C cat (reads one char and outputs)"
22:30:07 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:33:52 -!- VictorCL has joined.
22:34:02 <int-e> owie... Process p = Runtime.getRuntime().exec("./main bftemp.temp "+bfin);
22:45:46 -!- TodPunk has joined.
22:48:45 <boily> `wisdom
22:48:46 <HackEgo> hexham/Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
22:49:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:52:25 <boily> hellœrjan.
22:52:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:53:05 <oerjan> boodmidnilyght
22:53:40 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: @ is lowercase, don't you notice that it looks like an "a" (the print kind, not the fancy computer kind)
22:54:32 <fizzie> It's not lowercase, because it's 'A' - 1, not 'a' - 1.
22:54:48 <oerjan> i'm with fizzie
22:54:54 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: I'm going by the alphabet, not by ASCII
22:55:09 <fizzie> That's the same thing.
22:55:18 <hppavilion[1]> Where did @ even /come/ from? I mean, it's never used except in email addresses usually
22:55:30 <oerjan> alphabet semantically coded in integers
22:55:41 <hppavilion[1]> And in made-up^Wrecently-discovered numbers
22:55:59 <fizzie> Just a shorthand of "at", AIUI.
22:56:15 <hppavilion[1]> `! c printf("%c", 'a' - 1);
22:56:16 <HackEgo> ​`
22:56:21 <oerjan> it was probably used in snailmail
22:56:21 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: There you go
22:56:23 <fizzie> "-- originally an accounting and commercial invoice abbreviation meaning "at a rate of" (e.g. 7 widgets @ £2 = £14) --"
22:56:28 <oerjan> oh
22:56:37 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: The most likely origin is that it's a ligature of "ad" used by medieval monks.
22:56:44 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
22:56:52 <oerjan> per ardua @ astra
22:57:26 <pikhq> It certainly does see that usage in old documents.
22:58:19 <oerjan> wait, does that mean the part that looks most like an a is actually a d
22:58:20 <\oren\> @ is the zeroth letter of the roman alphabet
22:58:22 <fizzie> Heh, the Wikipedia article lists four different origin theories, and all four say [citation needed].
22:58:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tangle bracket language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44676&oldid=44025 * Hppavilion1 * (+23) Changed some syntax to allow for more tangling.
22:58:52 <hppavilion[1]> I thought of a new esoteric control flow thing that is similar to a higher-level computed goto
22:58:52 <pikhq> The origin is rather a lot less clear than why it got encoded in ASCII in the first place.
22:59:27 <pikhq> It was commonly used in accounting and invoicing at the time in English, and thus considered a needed character in ASCII. :)
23:00:01 <oerjan> @counting
23:00:01 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
23:00:10 <oerjan> @thanks lambdabot
23:00:10 <lambdabot> you are welcome
23:00:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tangle bracket language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44677&oldid=44676 * Hppavilion1 * (+14) Increased accuracy, bringing a sentence in line with CS philosophical constructs and such
23:00:32 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone curious what it is?
23:00:47 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:00:54 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Sure.
23:01:01 <hppavilion[1]> Great!
23:01:08 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically this: Controlled end
23:01:21 -!- trn has quit (Quit: quit).
23:01:28 <hppavilion[1]> Or "End Instruction" or, as a subset, "conditional end"
23:01:38 -!- trn has joined.
23:02:32 -!- Lymia has joined.
23:03:55 <\oren\> the alphabet has 32 letters, namely: @ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_
23:04:22 <hppavilion[1]> Observe the following code:
23:04:23 <hppavilion[1]> http://pastebin.com/t99cBmwj
23:04:50 <hppavilion[1]> Consider its implications. Note that IF can mean different things in different contexts, and that an extra END instruction is ignored
23:04:57 <\oren\> someone whould make a language where @ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_ and `abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ are alphabtic characters, and names are case-insensitive.
23:05:07 <ais523> \oren\: IRC is like that IIRC
23:05:42 <hppavilion[1]> Why would {|} be the lower case of [\] and not vice versa?
23:05:51 <hppavilion[1]> It seems like it should be that way
23:06:01 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: because ASCII
23:06:08 <hppavilion[1]> Ah. Of course.
23:06:40 <hppavilion[1]> So conditional if is kind of strange, right?
23:06:49 <hppavilion[1]> It would be REALLY hard to compile xD
23:09:59 <fizzie> The RFC2812 case mapping only extends to the "[]\~" / "{}|^" characters, not the rest.
23:10:00 <\oren\> hmm... how is IF x THEN a; END IF y; b; END different from IF x THEN a; b; ELSE b; END
23:10:40 <\oren\> hmm... how is IF x THEN a; END IF y; b; END different from IF x THEN a; b; ELSE IF y THEN b; END
23:10:54 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know.
23:11:10 <fizzie> (It doesn't matter much, because @ is not valid in nicks or channel names anyway.)
23:11:41 <\oren\> hppavilion{1}: does this work?
23:12:27 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I suppose those two are the same.
23:12:30 <hppavilion[1]> It's still weird though
23:12:44 <hppavilion[1]> Also, that isn't the only available thing.
23:13:06 <hppavilion[1]> You can also do END FOREACH(x in l)
23:13:12 <fizzie> And of course it's not strictly "because of ASCII", it's because of the national ISO-646 variants have e.g. (in case of Finnish) ÄÖÅ for [\] and äöå for {|}. (Of course *that* case mapping is because of ASCII.)
23:13:20 <hppavilion[1]> Which'll end the number of tiems in the length of the list
23:13:26 <hppavilion[1]> *times
23:14:08 <hppavilion[1]> I assume \oren\ is typing something large
23:14:20 <\oren\> nah
23:14:48 <\oren\> i'm still trying to imagine what the end foreach woudl do
23:15:21 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It would end repeatedly
23:15:54 <hppavilion[1]> So if you're 20 levels nested deep, and l is seven elements long, it's like BREAK with a CONTINUE a at the 13th level
23:16:10 <\oren\> whoa
23:16:17 <hppavilion[1]> The x variable is never actually employed, so it's just a weird syntax
23:16:42 <hppavilion[1]> END WHILE isn't provided for because that'd just hang forever, unless you have some introspection available
23:16:53 <hppavilion[1]> Either it'd hang forever, or it'd break out completely
23:16:56 <hppavilion[1]> And keep breaking
23:17:01 <hppavilion[1]> Until it escaped from the computer
23:17:07 <hppavilion[1]> And then reality
23:17:23 <hppavilion[1]> Your program would keep exiting its containments forever, and until the end of time
23:17:46 <hppavilion[1]> Type systems are based on Classical Logic, correct?
23:19:08 <oerjan> <\oren{_> Hmm... so the first letter of wiki urls can be upper or lowercase and it goes to the uppercase version <-- that's at least somewhat customizable, wiktionary distinguishes them
23:19:49 <ais523> \oren\: MediaWiki is, by default, case-insensitive in the first letter of a page (but none of the others)
23:19:53 <ais523> I find this to be a sensible default
23:20:40 <\oren\> blurgh
23:20:49 <oerjan> i think there may also be a special case for ALLCAPS
23:21:13 <\oren\> it should be able to depend on the particular aritcle
23:21:32 <ais523> oerjan: there's a special case in the /search/ for allcaps
23:21:37 <oerjan> ah
23:21:40 <ais523> but it doesn't affect the page names in any way
23:22:34 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Type systems are based on Classical Logic, correct? <-- no, intuitionistic usually
23:22:39 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
23:22:49 <hppavilion[1]> I don't understand how they are based on it xD
23:22:59 <oerjan> classical is equivalent to having unlimited continuations
23:23:39 <hppavilion[1]> Ah?
23:23:59 <oerjan> :t callCC
23:24:00 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
23:24:21 <hppavilion[1]> I don't exactly understand how a type system can be based on a logic at all. Unless it's in haskell. Haskell is weird.
23:24:29 <oerjan> removing the monads, callCC has the type ((a -> b) -> a) -> a and you cannot make a function like that without continuations
23:25:06 <oerjan> and ((a -> b) -> a) -> a is one of the theorems that hold in classical logic but not intuitionistic
23:25:19 <hppavilion[1]> The part of the type system based on a logic has nothing to do with strong|weak*static|dynamic typing, correct?
23:25:37 <oerjan> type systems in that sense imply static
23:25:43 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
23:25:51 <oerjan> and if it's weak, then the type system is probably inconsistent
23:25:51 <hppavilion[1]> And a language could, in theory, use any form of logic as its type system?
23:26:07 <oerjan> well many forms anyway
23:26:19 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
23:26:24 <hppavilion[1]> Such as Temporal, perhaps?
23:26:25 <oerjan> anything that can be fit into the sequent or natural deduction style of logic
23:26:50 <oerjan> yes. istr temporal logic corresponds to the types of functional reactive programming
23:26:52 <hppavilion[1]> A Modal μ-calculus type system programming language?
23:27:01 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
23:27:27 <oerjan> monads are sort of modal logic
23:28:25 <hppavilion[1]> Oh. Reactive Programming looks interesting.
23:28:41 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll go learn a functional reactive programming language
23:29:56 <oerjan> <\oren\> it should be able to depend on the particular aritcle <-- i think at least wiktionary will redirect to the other if the current one doesn't exist
23:31:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: functional reactive programming is a _style_ of programming. you can do it in haskell, there are several libraries.
23:32:10 <hppavilion[1]> Oh.
23:32:12 <hppavilion[1]> Well.
23:32:24 <hppavilion[1]> I already installed a language called Elm which appears to be based around it xD
23:32:31 <hppavilion[1]> It compiles to HTML5
23:32:36 <oerjan> but there are also some that... right i was about to mention that
23:33:14 <oerjan> HTML5 includes javascript? because i'm pretty sure you cannot compile much into plain html.
23:34:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course it can't compile to plain HTML xD
23:34:59 <hppavilion[1]> I'm /pretty/ sure "HTML5" is a blanket term for HTML, CSS, and JS
23:35:06 <hppavilion[1]> That's how I learned it
23:35:09 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm probably wrong
23:35:19 <oerjan> i think for haskell reactive banana has a certain momentum. i mean who can resist heinrich apfelmus' fruitiness...
23:35:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i cannot deny it, anyway.
23:36:24 <oerjan> my knowledge about html5 is like a vague osmosis from seeing people discuss it.
23:37:54 * oerjan still hasn't added either css or js to his unmaintained webpage.
23:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> What if there was a language with a "reactive" variable keyword? Where you can declare reactive x=y+5 and it will ALWAYS be y+5?
23:42:03 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, I'd like to see a language that is a conglomorate of all previous programming languages
23:42:14 <hppavilion[1]> Yet still as minimalistic as possible
23:42:24 <hppavilion[1]> Producing a big, beautiful, complicated mess
23:42:29 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: Forth
23:42:33 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Oh
23:42:51 <ais523> you define the syntax and semantics at runtime
23:42:53 <ais523> the core language is very simple
23:43:44 <hppavilion[1]> Cool.
23:44:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'd still like to make a language like that. One with support for many different programming paradigms, all rolled into one
23:45:15 <hppavilion[1]> Designed by comittee, but a smart comittee.
23:47:37 <hppavilion[1]> Making it only /sort of/ bad
23:50:10 <fizzie> That's kind of insulting towards everyone who's ever been in a language design committee.
23:50:25 <hppavilion[1]> Which part?
23:50:49 <ais523> the part that implies most language design committees aren't smart
23:52:56 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Well I never said *your* particular language design committee wasn't, and really it's the committee as a whole that isn't smart. I'm sure the individual members are intelligent human beings, but a bunch of intelligent human beings together often actually will be percieved to have a /lower/ IQ than the group really does. Because smart people overthink some things, and groups of smart people overthink /everything/, which is why
23:52:56 <hppavilion[1]> having the language designed by a commitee like I was considering isn't going to work
23:53:15 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm not really on language design commitees
23:53:32 <ais523> unless you count Verity, which you shouldn't really
23:53:41 <hppavilion[1]> *your* meant "You", not you yourself, "you" the reader who has been on a language design commitee
23:53:43 <ais523> (it's not a normal sort of committee model)
23:53:53 <oerjan> <boily> tswett: tswellott. I think the text cuts off prematurely. <-- as long as it's in the wisdom/
23:54:35 <oerjan> `` \? delve | tail -c 100
23:54:36 <HackEgo> l or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with delve is determined.
23:54:37 -!- WashIrving has joined.
23:55:01 <ais523> `? delve
23:55:02 <HackEgo> Delve is a static ability that functions while the spell with delve is on the stack. “Delve” means “For each generic mana in this spell’s total cost, you may exile a card from your graveyard rather than pay that mana.” The delve ability isn’t an additional or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with delve
23:55:02 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I want to create the Ultimate Programming Language.
23:55:08 <tswett> It'll be...
23:55:20 <ais523> why do we have the rules for delve from M:tG in our wisdombot?
23:55:32 <tswett> ais523: find the culprits!
23:55:39 <ais523> `culprits wisdom/delve
23:55:41 <HackEgo> tswett
23:55:42 <tswett> It'll be about twice as complicated as standard Haskell, perhaps? It won't actually be particularly simple.
23:55:44 <ais523> that explains who but not why
23:56:05 <tswett> So that people who are wondering what the rules for delve are can look them up in HackEgo.
23:56:19 <tswett> But the features I give you will be basic. Very basic. Very fundamental.
23:56:20 <ais523> is that a particularly common thing to wonder about though?
23:56:22 <tswett> Such wow.
23:56:22 <ais523> `? convoke
23:56:23 <HackEgo> convoke? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:56:37 <ais523> `? affinity
23:56:38 <HackEgo> affinity? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:56:43 <ais523> (spot the common theme)
23:56:43 <tswett> `? magic
23:56:44 <HackEgo> magic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:56:58 <ais523> magic isn't a cost-reducing ability :-P
23:57:56 <hppavilion[1]> I don't want to create the Ultimate Programming Language. I just want to create a Good Programming Language.
23:57:59 <tswett> Enchanted Drake. 3B. Creature – Dragon. 2/2. Trample, haste, magic.
23:58:06 <oerjan> `learn The magic was in you all along.
23:58:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'magic': The magic was in you all along.
23:58:16 <tswett> Note that my Ultimate Programming Language won't be a very good programming language for everyday use.
23:58:36 <tswett> It'll essentially force you to create language features before doing anything useful.
23:59:01 <tswett> Want to write a function which reverses a list? Okay, first you have to tell my language just what you mean by a "function".
23:59:08 <ais523> tswett: trample+haste in /black/?
23:59:11 <ais523> seriously?
23:59:21 <tswett> s/B/U/, not that that's much better.
23:59:22 <ais523> (black can have tramplers but not at power 2)
23:59:31 <tswett> Do you mean like a Haskell function? A primitive recursive function?
23:59:32 <hppavilion[1]> I can't tell if tswett is trying to make fun of me, or...
23:59:33 <ais523> err, that's arguably worse
23:59:44 <tswett> No, I'm being totally serious.
23:59:46 <zzo38> tswett: That is fine, try to make such programming language, may be good
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