←2015-10-17 2015-10-18 2015-10-19→ ↑2015 ↑all
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01:14:24 <boily> hppavellon[1].
01:21:33 <boily> @metar CYUL
01:21:33 <lambdabot> CYUL 180100Z 30004KT 15SM SKC 01/M06 A3018 RMK SLP221
01:21:38 <boily> @metar CYYZ
01:21:38 <lambdabot> CYYZ 180100Z 29009KT 270V330 15SM FEW040 02/M03 A3027 RMK SC1 SLP257
01:21:48 <boily> @metar ENVA
01:21:48 <lambdabot> ENVA 180050Z 09003KT 050V130 9999 BKN021 08/08 Q1025 RMK WIND 670FT 23007KT
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01:41:18 <hppavilion[1]> I still want to see an ultra-minimalistic markup language
01:41:25 <hppavilion[1]> With a Brainfucky appearence
01:46:27 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone?
01:46:29 <hppavilion[1]> boily?
01:46:39 <boily> yes, was thinking of something ^^
01:46:45 <boily> or about something.
01:46:50 <boily> or maybe at something.
01:46:56 <hppavilion[1]> (It doesn't need to be Brainfucky, but it should at least not look normal.)
01:47:25 <boily> it should be based upon troff, but more compacter.
01:47:29 <hppavilion[1]> troff?
01:47:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'll look it up
01:47:44 <boily> have you ever dissected a man page?
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01:48:18 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
01:48:24 <oerjan> I,I "have you ever dissected a man" page
01:48:26 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Not usually.
01:49:13 <boily> hellørjan. only a fish, a bird, a piglet, a beef eye, and I think a frog too?
01:49:24 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe not ultraminimalistic, but based on some esoteric paradigm. Perhaps it should be malbolgy?
01:49:39 <hppavilion[1]> Or even Unlambdic or Befungual
01:50:17 * boily is happy to see that hppavilion[1] is now vocabularily corrupted :')
01:50:29 <hppavilion[1]> :)
01:50:40 <hppavilion[1]> I think I've said "lambdic" before xD
01:51:00 <hppavilion[1]> I believe in proper grammar, but also that you should be able to make up words on the fly xD
01:51:02 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Corruptic Channello | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | https://esolangs.org/.
01:51:48 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps LML? LISP Markup Language? Probably not eso enough...
01:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> I like the idea of a Combinatorial Markup Language
01:52:54 <boily> infix formatting operators?
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01:53:14 <hppavilion[1]> Ooooh
01:53:21 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of Outfix?
01:57:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Markup Λanguage]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44783 * Hppavilion1 * (+344) Initialized Page
01:57:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Markup Λanguage]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44784&oldid=44783 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed a link
01:59:19 <hppavilion[1]> So I imagine that to say "Hello, World!" in italics, one would do something like "i'Hello, world!" where i is the italicization combinator and ' is the quote combinator
02:00:00 <hppavilion[1]> Or perhaps just i"Hello, World!" where "Hello, World!" is syntactic ~sugar (~ because there's no "pure" way to do it) to make a string...
02:00:13 <hppavilion[1]> And from here we will get tables xD
02:02:51 <boily> syntactic dextrose.
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02:30:30 <MDude> syntactic artificial sweetener: resembles syntactic sugar but is actually designed to do nothing
02:32:03 <boily> syntaspartame. bletch.
02:33:20 <tswett> `? I,I
02:33:21 <HackEgo> I,I? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:34:23 <boily> oerjan: what's I,I twh
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02:36:53 <boily> a mystery to keep me asleeply awake.
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02:38:34 <\oren\> syntactic tabasco: does nothing new but makes your program more complex
02:43:07 <MDude> I think syntactic hot sauce would make people who aren't used to reading it panick when they first 'taste' it.
02:43:37 <oerjan> he may never know
02:43:52 <MDude> I guess it would be code obfuscation, since spice in plants is a defense mechanism?
02:44:15 <oerjan> syntactic cellulose
02:44:31 <oerjan> hard to write, hard to read
02:44:45 <oerjan> but _very_ efficient.
02:45:01 <myname> is latex esozeric enough for this channel? :>
02:45:18 * oerjan swats myname -----###
02:46:02 <MDude> I don't think there's a programming language based on Latex?
02:46:21 <oerjan> there is, it's called "Latex" hth
02:46:23 <pikhq> Well, there's LaTeX itself.
02:46:51 <MDude> Oh, I thought it was jsut a text formatting thing.
02:47:01 <MDude> And not an actual programming language.
02:47:02 <myname> so i am trying to build a union find structure in latex
02:47:02 <pikhq> It is, but it's Turing complete.
02:47:37 <Jafet> It's actually a TeX formatting thing.
02:47:37 <MDude> But I meant more, something that evaluates a calculus statement written in LaTeX..
02:47:39 <myname> my basic idea was just to rewrite the find command every time.i call union with a wrapped ifthenelse around the old one
02:48:04 <myname> MDude: i once wrote a brainfuck interpreter in latex
02:49:14 <myname> \newcommand{\union}[2]{\renewcommand{\find}[1]{\ifthenelse{\equal{##1}{#2}}{#1}{\find{##1}}}}
02:49:17 <myname> \newcommand{\find}[1]{#1}
02:49:21 <MDude> So I guess something that takes math written in LaTeX and converts it to combinational logic code.
02:49:23 <myname> that is my first try
02:49:50 <myname> it exceeds stack size though
02:50:28 <myname> i want to find a way to force expanding the inner call of \find with what the current definition is
02:50:37 <myname> i have no clue, though
02:51:12 <myname> i am reading about all this delicious \expandafter and \csname stuff on the internet, but i am still clueless
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03:09:00 <tswett> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48 – this is quite the errata.
03:09:01 <tswett> Part of it: 'When Animate Dead enters the battlefield, if it's on the battlefield, it loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead."'
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03:35:04 <zzo38> I know what \expandafter and \csname are and have used it a lot
03:36:05 <zzo38> They are primitive commands in TeX. The \expandafter command read two tokens; the second one is expanded and then the first one is reinserted before. The \csname command contains character tokens and then expand as the control sequence with that name.
03:38:18 <zzo38> You can use \csname to make a kind of key/value hash table. There is also \string to convert a control sequence name into a list of character tokens.
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03:40:34 <zzo38> I have implemented a index generator in TeX which stores the index entries in control sequence names; each one starts with ^^81 and then the text of the index entry, and is defined as a macro that expands as the control sequence of the next entry followed by one or two tokens for each page number it references. Sorting is also implemented.
03:41:22 <zzo38> (I have designed the scheme like this to save memory)
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03:53:12 <Lyka> so, does this pseudo-assembly language dessigned as a scripting language to be loaded into a parsing sketch from sd look any good? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/HYDRA%200002%20Commands%20%2800%20-%201F%29.pdf
03:53:48 <Lyka> sketch is the code that goes into an arduino
03:54:07 <Lyka> was originally typed with arduino context obvious
03:55:44 <Lyka> hello world (well, outputting "Hello\n"): SET 0 'H'; PUT 0; SET 0 'e'; PUT 0; SET 0 'l'; PUT 0; SET 0 'l'; PUT 0; SET 0 '\n'; PUT 0; STOP;
03:57:09 <Lyka> I made this languange iand i haven't got the faintest idea how to program in it
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04:01:40 <Lyka> (my irc gender varies randomly)
04:03:30 <Lyka> printf("Hi.\n") is: SET 0 'H'; PUT 0; SET 0 'i'; PUT 0; SET 0 '.'; PUT 0; SET 0 '\n'; PUT 0; STOP;
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04:11:38 <tswett> Enchant Aura with "Enchant Aura with 'Enchant creature'". Enchanted Aura has "Enchanted Aura has 'Enchanted creature gets +4/+4.'"
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04:18:59 <hppavilion[1]> Here's an idea for an Esoteric Social Network: No CSS
04:19:20 <hppavilion[1]> (and possibly no style=)
04:26:15 <hppavilion[1]> I am now obsessed with the concept of Esoteric Social Networks. Humans: Idealize!
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04:45:49 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm going to take the description from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_networking_service and forgo everything it says is in a SN. The INTERCAL of Social Networks, if you will
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05:08:46 <hppavilion[1]> Hizabera!
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05:24:24 <\oren\> exit
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05:39:45 <shachaf> Why do electric showers not exist in the US?
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05:59:52 <oerjan> shachaf: shocking
06:17:01 <Hoolootwo> what's an electric shower?
06:37:43 <shachaf> not qualified to answer that
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06:55:51 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmjtCW_gHIA ?
06:57:05 <Sgeo> This is not a convincing advertisement for electric showers.
06:57:50 <Sgeo> I mean, who wouldn't want a shower that has difficulty pumping hot water?
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08:40:04 <Jafet> A shower of sparks
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08:43:33 <hppavilion[1]> Signed Boolean heh heh
08:47:21 <myname> is -true even more false or another kind of true?
08:47:48 <Phantom_Hoover> -true = filenotfoun
08:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> *d
08:48:11 <myname> okay
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09:10:01 <Jafet> +True stands for positivistic truth
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09:54:16 <typical_username> hello, would you like to play a game with me
09:54:43 <myname> does it involve weapons?
09:55:23 <typical_username> rather not
09:55:35 <typical_username> but who knows what people do when they lose games right
09:56:08 <Hoolootwo> weapons are how you win games
09:57:06 <typical_username> it isn't sum 0
09:57:07 <Phantom_Hoover> is there a board i can flip
09:57:47 <typical_username> you can flip text on one of those silly sides, and tell everyone else to do the same
09:58:11 <typical_username> sites
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10:00:36 <typical_username> so i would like to tell you idea of esolang i got
10:00:55 <typical_username> and it would be nice if you told me if it was created before
10:04:25 <typical_username> so it would have only one symbol command whatever
10:04:38 <typical_username> the \n
10:04:52 <typical_username> and variables, only booleans
10:05:32 <typical_username> every line would have to be a variable name
10:06:12 <typical_username> the first you type is declared and its forever True
10:06:50 <typical_username> then you can only declare by connecting
10:07:36 <typical_username> connecting is done by variablename \n variablename
10:08:02 <typical_username> connection send True to the second val if first is false
10:08:12 <typical_username> your turn
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10:16:25 <myname> what,happens if the first var is already true? (that,is, the beginning of every prlgram)
10:18:26 <typical_username> i dont understand
10:18:31 <typical_username> its forever True
10:18:51 <typical_username> "sends True" works like OR
10:19:34 <myname> huh?
10:19:46 <myname> if i do a\nb
10:19:53 <myname> a is true due to your definition
10:19:59 <myname> what happens to b?
10:20:17 <typical_username> every line would have to be a variable name
10:20:37 <typical_username> so you cant put two names in one line
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10:21:22 <myname> i didn't
10:21:45 <typical_username> so what is n in "a\nb"
10:21:55 <typical_username> oh
10:21:56 <typical_username> ok
10:21:58 <typical_username> im stupid
10:22:09 <typical_username> yeah
10:22:11 <typical_username> yeah
10:22:30 <typical_username> connection sends True if the first val is False
10:22:45 <typical_username> right i should tell that every val is False on start
10:23:00 <typical_username> really the first doesnt have to be true
10:23:23 <myname> so on a\nb a is false and b is true?
10:23:36 <typical_username> from now on yes
10:23:46 <typical_username> so first is just like every other
10:24:07 <myname> does something happen if the first is true?
10:24:19 <myname> i.e. a\nb\nc - what will happen to c?
10:24:31 <typical_username> c is false
10:24:33 <typical_username> oh
10:24:34 <typical_username> no
10:25:14 <typical_username> it really works like {x to z} {z to p} {x to d}
10:25:32 <typical_username> so number of lines has to ben %2==0
10:25:56 <myname> okay, a\nb\nb\nc then
10:26:16 <typical_username> so a false
10:26:18 <typical_username> b true
10:26:41 <typical_username> connection doesnt send anything to c so its false
10:26:54 <typical_username> like 'no signal'
10:26:56 <myname> how do ypu do anything non-static with it?
10:27:23 <typical_username> whats static
10:27:36 <typical_username> h
10:27:39 <typical_username> showing no change
10:28:07 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell oerjan how do norwegians pronounce 'sylow'
10:28:07 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:28:31 <typical_username> i have to code it ok
10:28:44 <myname> you don't have any kind of looping
10:28:49 <myname> you'd need that
10:30:48 <typical_username> {space instead of \n} what about "a b b c c a"
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10:32:21 <myname> how do you define evaluation there? will it loop from the end of file? will it flip everything simultaniously?
10:32:48 <typical_username> is "turns" a correct answer
10:32:53 <typical_username> ?
10:33:44 <typical_username> everything takes turn in one time
10:34:43 <myname> so on your example: everything is false at the beginning, so a b sets b true, b c sets c true, c a sets a true. now everything is true and execution halts
10:35:17 <typical_username> why does b set c true
10:35:38 <typical_username> connection sends True only if the first var is False
10:35:41 <myname> because b is false. if it is execited at the same time as a b ...
10:36:05 <myname> b is only true if b c is executed AFTER a b
10:36:54 <typical_username> i think i messed up the example
10:37:15 <typical_username> "a b b a"?
10:37:43 <myname> also: you currently have no way to set anything to false, so loops may not work infinitely often unless they do nothing
10:38:46 <typical_username> i dont understand "infinitely often"
10:38:59 <typical_username> could you please explain
10:39:15 <myname> how do you do while(true) { do something }
10:40:31 <myname> let's assume your example: a sets b true, b c doesn't do anything, c sets a true. of you repeat that: a b doesn't do anything, b c doesn't do anything, c a doesn't do anything
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10:43:30 <typical_username> turn1 a,b,c=false I turn2 a=false b,c=true I turn 3 a,b,c=false
10:43:47 <typical_username> no actually a=true in turn2
10:44:21 <typical_username> right?
10:44:59 <typical_username> so its oscillating between everything false and true
10:46:30 <myname> how do they become false again?
10:46:53 <myname> your only rule was "if the first thing is false, the second will be true"
10:47:12 <typical_username> yup
10:47:23 <typical_username> so on turn 2 everything is True
10:47:35 <myname> so, why is everything false in turn 3
10:47:40 <typical_username> So nothing sends true signal
10:47:47 <typical_username> when everything is true
10:48:08 <typical_username> maybe i should add "you become false if you dont get any True signal"
10:48:25 <typical_username> but i thought its obvious
10:48:32 <myname> that doesn't make sense
10:48:35 <myname> a b
10:48:50 <typical_username> ?
10:49:19 <myname> b should become true, because a is false. but now b should also become false, since it doesn't get any true signals
10:50:01 <typical_username> thats from turn 2 to 3
10:50:29 <myname> why? they are both true the same time
10:50:31 <typical_username> from 1 to 2 a was setted true by initially false c
10:50:37 <myname> you could say: something becomes false if it ONLY gets true signals
10:50:51 <myname> no no, just the program "a b"
10:50:56 <myname> what will b be?
10:51:11 <myname> if should be both true and false at the same time due to your stated rules
10:51:29 <typical_username> turn 1 a,b=false I turn 2 a=false,b=true Iturn 3 same as 2
10:52:36 <myname> why is b true in turn 2?
10:52:55 <myname> you said: "you become false if you dont get any True signal"
10:53:03 <myname> b doesn't get any true signal
10:53:07 <typical_username> it gets it from a
10:53:09 <myname> so b should become false.
10:53:15 <myname> no, a is false
10:53:39 <typical_username> right
10:53:49 <typical_username> its negation
10:53:53 <myname> ah
10:54:01 <myname> so you have a nand or a nor
10:54:03 <typical_username> i said it in first set of rules
10:54:08 <myname> that is actually valid
10:54:38 <myname> nand and nor are both functionally completr
10:54:38 <typical_username> "connection send True to the second val if first is false"
10:54:56 <myname> you can do anything in np with this
10:55:40 <typical_username> right?
10:56:31 <typical_username> my real question was "was it created before"
10:57:20 <myname> well, it is a hard version of writing down circuits
10:58:08 <typical_username> true, but writing down circuits isnt yet a programming language, true?
11:00:06 <myname> not sure, i would say funciton is a bit like it even thoughbit claims not to be. but i don't know that many languages
11:02:13 <typical_username> i wanted to add like classes and #define so it would be something more
11:03:39 <typical_username> then there could be classes like input, output or random
11:04:43 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> I know what \expandafter and \csname are and have used it a lot" -- I think you also need to have used \futurelet and possible \afterassignment a lot to be a true TeX hacker
11:05:07 <myname> wtf is futurelet
11:07:44 <typical_username> its not stopping the future, so i guess 'pass'
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11:30:45 <zzo38> I have used \afterassignment a lot too, and \futurelet a bit
11:32:33 <b_jonas> good
11:35:26 <b_jonas> @message \oren\ I think again you have a character in your demo page that doesn't have a glyph in the font
11:35:26 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
11:35:30 <b_jonas> @tell \oren\ I think again you have a character in your demo page that doesn't have a glyph in the font
11:35:30 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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11:46:38 <zzo38> I think I have never needed to use insertions with negative factor or negative extra space, although I have used insertion class with a factor and extra space of zero.
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11:54:22 <izabera> http://slapit.me/ must see
11:56:12 <izabera> i know what i want for christmas
11:56:41 <b_jonas> tomorrow is the 12th anniversary of the death of Ken Iverson
11:57:01 <zzo38> I have also used the macro like this a lot: \def\ecall#1{\begingroup\edef\next{\endgroup#1}\next}
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12:05:41 <b_jonas> wait wait
12:06:05 <b_jonas> in http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/bit.html , DMM writes "This is actually true of all programming languages" in the context of esolangs?
12:07:02 <zzo38> It looks like that is what is written.
12:07:09 <b_jonas> hehe
12:07:20 <b_jonas> he was probably not yet enough of an esolanger when he wrote that
12:07:34 <b_jonas> true esolangers don't dare to write such a universal quantification
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12:08:18 <zzo38> I think you are correct; many thing might end up wrong if you are like that!
12:09:02 <b_jonas> so Shakespeare predates Chef? ok
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12:13:15 <b_jonas> Apparently some esolangs use the feature that each variable is actually a stack that you can push or pop but most operations access the top element directly. Does this idea come from intercal? Or is it from the old interpreted programming languages that have dynamically scoped variables (including TeX and elisp), taking the idea further so that the different variables aren't necessarily saved and restored in a fifo manner?
12:17:47 <zzo38> Maybe it is from dc?
12:18:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think dc works that way
12:18:52 <b_jonas> doesn't dc have separate normal variables and arrays?
12:19:00 <b_jonas> I'm not sure, I was never really much into dc
12:19:23 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but you do operations in dc with the stack
12:19:40 <Phantom_Hoover> it's how RPN works too, that might be the genesis of the idea
12:20:02 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: but that's just _one_ stack.
12:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> oh oops, misread
12:20:29 <Phantom_Hoover> which esolangs are you thinking of
12:20:37 <zzo38> But dc also has separate stacks for each variable too
12:20:44 <zzo38> (As well as the main stack)
12:20:52 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: Shakespeare
12:21:05 <b_jonas> but I think there was more
12:21:43 <zzo38> Also in dc the array is part of the same variable (and is stored on that variable's stack); the man page says so.
12:21:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, then dc may be involved too
12:23:24 <zzo38> In INTERCAL the arrays are separate registers, but other than that I think the stacks of registers in INTERCAL are closest to stacks of registers in dc
12:24:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: except that dc also has random access to those stacks, right?
12:24:44 <zzo38> While in TeX it is different; all registers *and macros* use a single stack.
12:24:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, just like in all the old languages with dynamic scope
12:25:13 <zzo38> As far as I know, dc does not have random access to stacks.
12:25:14 <b_jonas> including the "local" statement in perl, or elisp
12:25:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, what does the ; and : command do then? let me check
12:26:08 <zzo38> They access values in an array
12:26:55 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, i don't think i've ever seen you use asterisks for emphasis before
12:29:02 <b_jonas> oh, the arrays are separate from the stacks. ok
12:29:15 <b_jonas> then yes, Intercal's and Shakespeare's ideas are close to dc's
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12:34:33 <zzo38> You say there is "local" in Perl, but in TeX everything is local by default if not otherwise specified (except a few special registers which have a different scope).
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12:36:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DMM]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44785 * B jonas * (+30) Redirected page to [[David Morgan-Mar]]
12:37:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[David Morgan-Mar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44786&oldid=41708 * B jonas * (-54)
12:39:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[David Morgan-Mar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44787&oldid=44786 * B jonas * (-2)
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12:50:19 <Lyka> guess what this does:
12:50:20 <Lyka> WIPE SET 0 50 SET 1 0 SET 224 0 SET 225 1 SET 226 255 SET 227 '\n' GADR 240 241 INCD 0 1 CIE 0 1 224 225 READ 2 0 1 SET 3
12:50:23 <Lyka> 1 PUT 2 CIE 3 2 227 226 JINZ 3 240 241 STOP 'H' 'e' 'l' 'l' 'o' ',' ' ' 'W' 'o' 'r' 'l' 'd' '!' '\n'
12:50:51 <zzo38> What programming language is it?
12:51:52 <Lyka> my own
12:51:57 <Lyka> Hydra
12:53:08 <Lyka> i think the end of the code hints to it's purpose
12:53:25 <Lyka> i'll put on pastebin with line feeds
12:55:20 <zzo38> I can read it just fine as it is though
12:55:35 <zzo38> But you can put on pastebin if you want to.
12:55:38 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/GEMXkvLy
12:56:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44788&oldid=44622 * Zzo38 * (+445)
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13:13:49 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/HYDRA%200002B1%20Commands.pdf
13:17:44 <b_jonas> ah great
13:18:26 <Lyka> huh?
13:21:15 <b_jonas> Lyka: I accidentally had caps lock stuck on. This is possible because I use a keyboard layout with caps lock disabled. There is a solution for this in the script I use to set the keyboard layout, but I forgot what it was so I had to look it up.
13:21:21 <b_jonas> Now my caps lock is off again.
13:22:01 <Lyka> good
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13:23:39 <typical_username> hi
13:24:21 <Lyka> are you a typical user?
13:24:58 <Lyka> i gotta go
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13:30:01 <boily> typical_usernamhello.
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13:34:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Catb0t * New user account
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13:48:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44789 * Catb0t * (+1108) created with text
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14:03:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44790&oldid=44789 * Catb0t * (+1008)
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14:06:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44791&oldid=44790 * Catb0t * (-24)
14:07:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44792&oldid=44791 * Catb0t * (+82)
14:08:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44793&oldid=44792 * Catb0t * (+1)
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14:26:32 <boily> @metar CYUL
14:26:32 <lambdabot> CYUL 181400Z 33006KT 280V340 30SM FEW030 FEW100 BKN240 01/M07 A3029 RMK CF1AC1CI4 CF TR SLP258
14:28:13 <boily> for October, avg high 13.0, daily mean 8.5, avg low 3.9. there's something very wrong going on.
14:32:19 <typical_username> getrandbits(n) generates random number with n bits. Whats chance for x that x times nested getrandbits with initial 2 will generate x?
14:33:31 <ais523> it's not likely to be very high
14:33:49 <typical_username> i know that for 1 its 0.25
14:34:11 <ais523> I don't know for certain, but it feels like an iterated e^-x operation
14:34:30 <ais523> err, no
14:34:35 <ais523> something vaguely like that but not that
14:36:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44794&oldid=44788 * Zzo38 * (+564)
14:36:50 <typical_username> "whats chance that nesting it infinite amount of times will ever generate n"
14:58:40 <ais523> hmm, I'm considering an esoteric use of SQLite
14:58:47 <ais523> so I went over there to ask a question
14:58:53 <ais523> and noticed that zzo38's website was linked in the topic
14:58:57 <ais523> so presumably I'll fit right in
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15:01:36 <b_jonas> ais523: zzo38 does use sqlite, in an esoteric way
15:01:44 <ais523> b_jonas: I know
15:01:56 <ais523> my point is that asking questions about esoteric sqlite might not be as out of place as normal
15:02:01 <b_jonas> I think he also uses it in a non-esoteric way, but it's hard to be sure
15:02:09 <ais523> I remember when I went into #ocaml and asked how to convert a char to a string without using the standard library
15:02:24 <ais523> it took me a while to explain why I wanted to
15:02:53 <b_jonas> ais523: is a char one of those types with only 256 different values, so you can just use a big case statement, or a bigger type?
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15:04:50 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm not actually sure
15:04:55 <ais523> I didn't have to use a big case statement though
15:05:24 <ais523> (the reason is that I was setting students an assignment that required them to not use the standard library, I had a sandbox that enforced this, but needed to run some of my own code in the sandbox too)
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15:06:35 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm
15:07:03 <b_jonas> couldn't you allow some of the standard library in, including the function for this?
15:07:20 <b_jonas> while still not allowing map
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15:31:48 <b_jonas> oh, while we're doing crazy C stuff
15:32:11 <ais523> the solution was to use the concatenation operator to create a fresh length-1 string, then overwrite its first character
15:32:38 <b_jonas> is stdin permitted to be a null pointer? I mean, at startup for the program, and it still works as a stream, it's just that the null pointer identifies that particular stream. eg. the library could be using the descriptor number as the identifier, and it's not really a pointer, but an index to a table the library keeps.
15:33:23 <ais523> haha, that's a clever idea
15:33:28 <b_jonas> no really
15:33:35 <ais523> I can't think of any reason offhand why it couldn't be
15:33:36 <b_jonas> I don't know if the C standard allows it
15:33:53 <b_jonas> it's a BAD idea
15:34:02 <b_jonas> but I don't know if the standard forbids it
15:34:03 <oren> can fopen return a numm pointer?
15:34:14 <b_jonas> oren: yes, it signals error that way
15:34:19 <b_jonas> that's why this would be a bad idea
15:34:26 <ais523> zzo38: War and Peace is a novel that's famous for being really long, that's why
15:34:35 <b_jonas> a program that does fopen, which fails, but the program doesn't check, would read from stdin silently
15:34:41 <b_jonas> hmm wait
15:35:57 <b_jonas> what if stdin isn't a null pointer, but fopen(nullptr, "r") would return stdin, so that programs can just do FILE *f = fopen(argv[1]); and have pipe semantics when nothing is passed to them :-)
15:36:01 <b_jonas> crazy
15:36:13 <b_jonas> no wait, that wouldn't work
15:36:28 <b_jonas> it would have to return a new handle for stdin, so that fclose doesn't close stdin
15:38:29 <oren> is there any filesystem where the empty string is a valid file name?
15:39:51 <b_jonas> oren: I think there used to be old unices where the empty string as a pathname represented the current directory, but POSIX specifically bans that now
15:40:11 <oren> I see. that makes sense
15:40:17 <b_jonas> POSIX requires that the empty string is an invalid pathname, and current unices follow that
15:40:22 <b_jonas> Linux definitely does
15:41:02 <b_jonas> the interpretation of current directory sort of made sense because multiple slashes in the middle of the pathname are interpreted as just one slash in unix
15:41:36 <b_jonas> but making it invalid is better in practice, because most uses of an empty pathname are accidental, and so making it invalid catches errors
15:41:54 <b_jonas> as in, the empty string often occurs as an error output
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16:33:52 <oren> idea: a language with functions from C and lisp. the C functions are called like fun(arg,arg,arg) while the Lisp ones are instad called like (fun, arg, arg)
16:35:19 <oren> similarly, functions taken from perl would be called like fun arg,arg
16:35:56 <oren> using the wrong call syntax for a fucntion is a grammatical error
16:36:03 <b_jonas> oren: is that just objective C?
16:36:32 <oren> I dunno objective C
16:36:37 <b_jonas> "using the wrong call syntax for a fucntion is a grammatical error" -- oh, like in K&R C when you pass the wrong parameters to a function?
16:37:25 <oren> yes, but here it's purely arbitrary what the right call syntax is, kinda like how romance languages assign arbitrary genders to words
16:38:11 <oren> e.g. (map, f, A) is valid but (printf, "%d\n", x) is a compiler error
16:38:21 <b_jonas> hah! as if some of the function argument types aren't arbitrary
16:38:29 <oren> well yah
16:40:22 <oren> the type system might also contain arbitrary duplications like lisp lists and perl arrays which must each be manipulated with the right functions
16:41:28 <oren> the main idea is what would happen if you mixed these languages the way natural languages are mixed, retaining complexity instead of cutting it out
16:47:57 <b_jonas> oren: that already happens in real languages, where different code uses different libraries to represent some structure, and you have to convert between them
16:48:26 <b_jonas> oren: if you want to go for an esolang, you have to need something more than what just happens naturally when decades of history shape a language
16:48:38 <b_jonas> also, wait, where are your backslashes?
16:48:55 <b_jonas> you may not have gotten my lambdabot message without them
16:52:48 -!- Lyka has joined.
16:52:51 <Lyka> hi
16:52:54 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/yVf4pPgt
16:53:04 <zzo38> I think that stdin should be allowed to be a null pointer but only if the two conditions apply: [1] There is no stdin [2] Functions such as fread and so on can accept a null pointer
16:53:15 <ais523> Lyka: that looks like an asm to me
16:53:19 <ais523> what language is it?
16:53:25 <Lyka> HYDRA
16:53:39 <Lyka> my own pseudo-asm language
16:53:49 <ais523> right
16:53:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm hoping the C standard doesn't actually allow that
17:01:24 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/HYDRA%200002B1%20Commands.pdf
17:01:52 <Lyka> that's the documentation
17:02:24 <Lyka> does it have enough commands?
17:02:32 <b_jonas> enough for what?
17:02:43 <Lyka> to be a usable language
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17:03:29 <Lyka> variables are all in mem[256]
17:03:57 <Lyka> READ reads bytes from the program file
17:04:17 <Lyka> max program file size is 65536 bytes
17:08:28 <fizzie> The standard does say that "stdin, stdout, stderr -- are expressions of type "pointer to FILE" that point to the FILE objects --" (7.21.1p3) but a null pointer "is guaranteed to compare unequal to a pointer to any object or function" (6.3.22p3).
17:09:29 <fizzie> Given that it's required to point at an actual FILE object, it doesn't sound like you can do tricks like that.
17:11:45 -!- oren has changed nick to \oren\.
17:11:52 <\oren\> @messages
17:12:17 <\oren\> oh, woops
17:29:07 <tswett> Hey Lyka.
17:29:20 <Lyka> hi tswett
17:29:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, then you probably can't
17:29:54 <b_jonas> good
17:31:11 <tswett> Lyka: yup, that definitely looks usable to me.
17:32:17 <Lyka> just realized that the "JUMP A B C" command is redundant, as it is equal to "JIZ A B C JINZ A B C"
17:32:50 <Lyka> have to redo everything again
17:32:57 <b_jonas> what?
17:34:40 <Lyka> i mean, have to both edit the interpreter and the script to convert the mnemonics + hex args to binary
17:35:11 <Lyka> and rerun the script on the HELLOW program
17:36:25 <Lyka> but it's worth it, as it will lower the number of commandss from 29 to 28
17:37:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44795&oldid=44589 * Vihan * (-19) /* Comments */
17:39:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Lyka, you should only need one conditional jump
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17:42:04 <Lyka> jump if zero or jump if nonzero?
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17:48:18 <Lyka> okay, removed JIZ
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18:48:55 <Lyka> so, um...I think I can use HYDRA 0002C, and, with its 4 empty command slots, i can expand if needed without altering the main code
18:49:43 <Lyka> JUMP A B: SET T 1 JINZ T A B
18:56:45 <Lyka> JIZ A B C: SET T 0 SET U 1 CIE A A T U JINZ A B C
18:58:30 <Lyka> i assue nobody understands
18:59:08 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/HYDRA%200002C%20Commands.pdf
19:00:15 <zzo38> Do you intend to have thirty-two possible commands in total?
19:00:16 -!- shahwaq has joined.
19:04:28 <Lyka> yes
19:04:55 <Lyka> not sure why, just worked out that way originally
19:06:03 <Lyka> originally, i was saving the first 3 bits for something, forgot what as it wa not documented by me
19:06:20 <Lyka> *was
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19:12:49 <zzo38> Do you have a document of encoded format and so on?
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19:14:17 <zzo38> I suppose I can guess sits working though
19:14:52 <Lyka> other than the command list, arduino sketch, and asm2bin script, almmost nothing
19:16:46 <zzo38> You probably should use other 3-bits though somehow.
19:16:56 <Lyka> agreed
19:19:33 <zzo38> Should NAND be ~ instead of ! possibly?
19:20:38 <Lyka> yes, but that is a bug in imlementation that you just caught
19:21:16 <tswett> Hey, who wants to play Magic over IRC?
19:24:02 <zzo38> tswett: I do not have time right now, but do you have software for such thing? You would need such program for shuffling cards and generating lists of cards in a pack (or selecting them from a cube) and for other random thing, and a few other stuff too
19:25:50 <tswett> I figured we'd use physical cards and trust each other.
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19:28:01 <zzo38> There are still a few things that you would be unable to do though, such as if you can look at opponent's library or exiled cards. (Also I don't have any physical cards)
19:29:12 <kallisti> dis some MtG shit?
19:29:23 <kallisti> oh wait no this is zzo's card game of a billion years designed
19:29:32 <kallisti> that has stuff to do with something I forgot
19:29:59 <zzo38> No it isn't. It is Magic: the Gathering. Even any game I might design, wouldn't take a billion years since I do not live that long.
19:31:25 <kallisti> I mean, within your currently estimatable lifespan it's entirely possible that an incredibly technological breakthrough rapidly increases the expected lifespan of all humans on earth.
19:32:03 <kallisti> so there's that
19:32:03 <boily> it is to be assumed that zzo38's lifespan is currenly undetermined, undecidable, and may taste like licorice.
19:32:25 <zzo38> Maybe, but if it would cause increasing to a billion years then it might not be such the good idea anyways.
19:33:08 <boily> zzo38: btw, as a fellow Canadian, are you going to vote tomorrow?
19:33:10 <tswett> We could cross that bridge upon coming thereto.
19:34:26 <zzo38> No, as none of the candidates are the right one I think. Even then, there are problems with the voting system (and I believe it has been mathematically proven to be impossible to fix).
19:34:53 <boily> not even the Greens?
19:34:56 <zzo38> I am not against the voting system in general, but I believe it should be improved.
19:35:31 <zzo38> In addition, I hardly know much about the political parties so I would be unable to make a reasonable judgment in able to vote anyways.
19:36:08 <tswett> The perfect voting system would be one where it's in everyone's best interest to state exactly what their preferences are and then the system picks whichever one results in the greatest overall satisfaction.
19:36:11 <zzo38> Therefore, any vote I would make would be wrong, and I don't want to vote wrong!
19:36:20 <boily> stop being rational! vote for the candidate with the best tie!
19:36:29 <tswett> Would be nice.
19:36:42 <boily> (really, studies show that the necktie is an important aspect for a candidate's success.)
19:37:02 <tswett> Say, I came up with a game. A game theoretic game.
19:37:11 <tswett> It's inspired by a certain situation in Magic.
19:37:17 <tswett> Here's the game.
19:37:30 -!- TieSoul has changed nick to TieSleep.
19:37:51 <tswett> There are two players, an attacker and a defender. With probability p, the attacker is given a "response card". The attacker knows whether or not she has the response card, but the defender does not.
19:37:53 <zzo38> I don't care about the candidate's tie. What is important is their politics.
19:38:22 <tswett> The attacker tells the defender whether she attacks or not. If she attacks, then the defender tells the attacker whether he defends or not.
19:39:00 <boily> well, they're all mostly the same, except for the Conservatives who are set slightly apart from the main cluster.
19:39:07 <tswett> If the attacker did not attack, her payoff is 0. If she attacked and the defender did not block, her payoff is 1.
19:39:25 <zzo38> Ah, I suppose I can see the relation of your game to Magic: the Gathering
19:39:34 <tswett> If she attacked and he blocked, her payoff is b >= 1 if she has a response card and d < 0 if she does not.
19:39:44 <tswett> The defender's payoff is the opposite of the attacker's payoff.
19:39:57 <zzo38> Although the game of Magic: the Gathering is more complicated than that, but there can be similar things.
19:40:17 <kallisti> what happened to ehird
19:40:36 <kallisti> did he disappear into the black oblivion of the outer void?
19:40:45 <boily> khellosti. haven't seen him in a long time. same for Bike.
19:42:10 <tswett> So if she doesn't have the card, she wants to attack if and only if the defender is not going to block. If she does have the card, she definitely wants to attack, and she also wants the defender to block (or doesn't care either way).
19:42:37 <tswett> Let's just say that b > 1.
19:42:51 <tswett> So if she has the card, she definitely wants to attack, and she also wants him to block.
19:42:59 <kallisti> byoly
19:43:11 <tswett> Meanwhile, the defender wants to block if and only if the attacker does not have a response card.
19:43:48 <tswett> And the question is, of course, what's the Nash equilibrium?
19:44:00 <kallisti> anyone here familiar with vinyl in haskell?
19:44:09 <kallisti> I'm pretty sure my code is more complex than it needs to be
19:45:53 <kallisti> like look at this nonsense: https://github.com/kallisti-dev/hs-webdriver/blob/vinyl-capabilities/src/Test/WebDriver/Capabilities.hs
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20:03:42 <izabera> do you ever feel the need to have irc logs in sql?
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20:13:02 <b_jonas> ohai
20:13:08 <b_jonas> you're talking about M:tG again, great
20:13:18 <b_jonas> izabera: I think zzo38 does that
20:13:37 <b_jonas> izabera: plus I think Tanktalus's logs of the chatterbox are stored in some sort of database too
20:13:44 <shachaf> I think ircbrowse.net uses postgres?
20:16:10 <tswett> Huh. "Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa's Atarka Red" contains six fetch lands that can only be used for one basic land type, because he doesn't have any of the other basic land type.
20:16:30 <b_jonas> tswett: um, so?
20:17:03 <tswett> Well, the question I had at first was, why would you use a Swamp/Mountain fetch land instead of a Mountain, when you don't have any Swamps?
20:17:05 <b_jonas> tswett: fetchlands are still useful for deck thinning, and possibly for shuffling or for triggering landfall effects
20:17:13 <tswett> There's no landfall either.
20:17:21 <b_jonas> tswett: then at least deck thinning
20:17:35 <b_jonas> possibly shuffling effects, if that's relevant to the deck
20:17:45 <b_jonas> (I have at least one deck where the shuffling _is_ useful)
20:17:55 <shachaf> The swamp/mountain land can fetch a mountain/forest land.
20:18:26 <shachaf> Which is also in that deck.
20:18:34 <tswett> Right.
20:18:52 <tswett> That's the benefit that I noticed.
20:19:01 <b_jonas> ah, that explains it then
20:19:24 <b_jonas> oh right, Atarka means it's three colored, right?
20:19:48 <b_jonas> and there's a new set of lands with two basic land types in Standard now
20:20:02 <tswett> Atarka's Command is only red–green.
20:21:34 <tswett> As are the cards representing Atarka.
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20:41:00 <izabera> zzo38: what do you do with your logs? and i don't know Tanktalus
20:43:38 <tswett> Hmmm. You can play Endless One for free and it'll insta-die, right?
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21:23:29 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, I believe you can
21:23:37 <b_jonas> it might even survive if you have the right effects
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21:30:14 <tswett> Death-B-Gone. W. Enchantment. Permanents you control can't die.
21:30:50 <hppavilion[1]> Hellu
21:31:29 <shachaf> How does that work?
21:32:07 <tswett> heppaviellion[1].
21:32:38 <tswett> Töirästä heppavi stö.
21:32:49 <tswett> shachaf: how does what work?
21:32:58 <nortti> what language is that?
21:33:02 <shachaf> "Permanents you control can't die."
21:33:26 <tswett> '700.4. The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.”'
21:33:35 <tswett> nortti: what language is "nortti"?
21:34:25 <shachaf> Yes, but what would happen?
21:34:27 <tswett> Never mind, I looked it up on Wiktionary.
21:34:29 <shachaf> '700.6. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield." It is used only when referring to creatures.'
21:34:36 <shachaf> `? nortti
21:34:49 <HackEgo> nortti boy. very nortti boy.
21:34:50 <nortti> tswett: none, altho it has roots in 10y.o. nortti picking "nörtti" as a handle on a programming site
21:35:03 <tswett> shachaf: when is that copy of the rules from?
21:35:09 <shachaf> 2012
21:35:25 <tswett> They're obsolete. My quote is from the September 26, 2015 rules.
21:35:33 <shachaf> I see.
21:36:04 <shachaf> Unfortunately Wizards of the Coast likes to hide the most recent rules in a convenient form from the top Google search result.
21:36:21 <shachaf> @google mtg rules txt
21:36:26 <lambdabot> http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules_20121001.txt
21:37:30 <shachaf> yorick: yorick
21:37:37 <yorick> shachaf: me
21:37:43 <yorick> what
21:37:45 <yorick> I never talk here
21:37:47 <shachaf> Well, I was replacing the first two letters of your nick with "yo".
21:38:09 <yorick> shachaf: and nothing happened
21:38:19 <shachaf> I was trying to remember who you were, but I think I may have confused you with someone else.
21:39:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: crazy idea, how much rules change would it take to support an enchantment with the text “You may play land cards you own from the battlefield.” ? The rules would need to make sure it's the printed values that matter for what you can play, so you can't play a permanent that's a land right now, and especially not a face down sorcery card or a token, plus it would have to treat playing the land as a zone change, so the card counts as leaving the
21:40:06 <b_jonas> (cont) plus it would have to treat playing the land as a zone change, so the card counts as leaving the battlefield then the land entering the battlefield as a new object with clear identity and statuses.
21:40:58 <b_jonas> the card could be called "Cycle of Nature" perhaps
21:42:23 <shachaf> Maybe doing it flicker-style would be more standard?
21:43:12 <shachaf> "Exile target land you control. You may play that card from exile until end of turn."
21:43:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, the point is, it has to count as playing a land, so that you're allowed it only once by default, as a normal action at your priority in the main phase of your own turn, just like with Crucible of Worlds
21:43:19 <shachaf> Of course that's different in many ways.
21:43:26 <b_jonas> it has to count as your normal land drop
21:43:45 <b_jonas> It's not a once effect, it's a continuous effect.
21:43:56 <b_jonas> Plus, the text would be a lot less elegant that way.
21:44:03 <shachaf> Right. But maybe you can do something in that style.
21:44:17 <shachaf> Playing cards from the battlefield seems like a big change.
21:44:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: how is it a big change, compared to playing cards from your hand, graveyard, or exile?
21:44:57 <b_jonas> or even sideboard
21:45:05 <b_jonas> in one case
21:46:03 <b_jonas> casting from the battlefield would be even easier, because that's already a zone change.
21:46:16 <shachaf> Playing seems to involve a zone change, like you said.
21:46:45 <b_jonas> I think there's a rule that if you exile a card from exile, that counts as a zone change,
21:46:47 <shachaf> But I agree now that flicker-style wouldn't work too well here.
21:47:05 <b_jonas> only there the rules don't have to handle triggers specifically because there's probably no relevant triggers.
21:52:30 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps a programming language in which the only way to access variables is to play Regex Golf would be interesting.
21:53:06 <hppavilion[1]> (And if you fuck up your regexes, it's non-deterministic, which may be useful for advanced programmers)
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21:55:32 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Oh. You greeted me xD.
21:59:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:01:12 <hppavilion[1]> Um.
22:01:45 <hppavilion[1]> Hi, Phantom_Hoover!
22:01:51 <Phantom_Hoover> yes hello
22:02:55 <hppavilion[1]> I thought of a language just now where you have to play Regex Golf to reference a variable
22:03:42 <hppavilion[1]> And it'd get worse.
22:11:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:12:56 <oerjan> @messages
22:13:17 <shachaf> yoerjan
22:17:59 <hppavilion[1]> Helloerjan
22:18:12 <hppavilion[1]> Aloerjanha?
22:18:14 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: [syːlɔʋ] hth
22:18:24 <oerjan> hippavilion
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22:25:57 <tswett> "syylov"?
22:26:28 <oerjan> if you like. it's long, anyway.
22:29:57 <oerjan> basically, in a stressed syllable the vowel is long unless the following consonant is
22:30:22 <oerjan> but only the consonant is marked in the orthography.
22:31:05 <oerjan> clusters count as long unless it's a compound word, or something like that
22:31:41 <oerjan> storm : short o, stormåse : long o (and å)
22:31:42 <shachaf> \oren\: I would say that you use "an" instead of "a" in front of a word iff the word begins with a glottal stop.
22:32:18 <oerjan> um, is the glottal stop actually pronounced after "an"
22:32:33 <shachaf> Usually?
22:32:34 <oerjan> istr from previous discussion that it's mostly only pronounced after a pause
22:32:53 <shachaf> I pronounce "an hour" with a glottal stop.
22:32:59 <oerjan> although it probably depends on dialect like everything else english
22:33:01 <shachaf> I can imagine people pronouncing it without one, though.
22:33:06 <oerjan> well, but are you a native speaker
22:33:16 <shachaf> English was my first language, I'm told.
22:33:17 <oerjan> (neither am i, of course)
22:33:21 <oerjan> aha?
22:33:28 <oerjan> and you never lost it?
22:33:31 <shachaf> But I didn't speak it from age 3 to 10 or so.
22:33:41 <oerjan> hm
22:33:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: did you speak some other language during that time?
22:33:47 <shachaf> And I have a non-American accent.
22:33:52 <oerjan> sounds like a research subject
22:33:56 <shachaf> b_jonas: Yes.
22:34:05 <oerjan> shachaf the feral jew
22:34:15 <tswett> I certainly don't pronounce "an hour" with a glottal stop.
22:34:18 <shachaf> At age 3 -- I'm told -- I decided to forget English.
22:34:35 <tswett> A wise and mature decision.
22:34:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: wait, forget, as in you also no longer understood it?
22:35:00 <shachaf> Yes.
22:35:04 <b_jonas> hmm
22:35:04 <oerjan> tswett: istr that people don't always hear if they do. do you pronounce it in the beginning of sentences?
22:35:14 <oerjan> (also from the previous discussion)
22:35:16 <shachaf> I'm not sure that we mean the same thing by "glottal stop".
22:35:28 <tswett> oerjan: I don't know.
22:35:29 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh by the way, about glottal stops
22:35:37 <b_jonas> I asked David in a comment and he replied
22:35:49 <shachaf> That was about Hebrew, right?
22:35:55 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes
22:36:06 <tswett> It definitely feels like air is exiting my lungs continuously throughout the phrase.
22:36:08 <oerjan> theoretically, english might have two glottal stops, one strong in the beginning of sentence that even english-speakers notice, and one weak elsewhere that only linguists and foreigners do
22:36:16 <oerjan> *sentences
22:36:22 <b_jonas> shachaf, oerjan: http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2015-09.html%23d.2015-09-10.2318
22:37:11 <b_jonas> tswett: um, air can still exit from your lungs, it just gets buffered a bit in your throat during the glottal stop
22:37:27 <oerjan> also, hichaf
22:37:42 <shachaf> glottal cave adventure
22:38:16 <tswett> I think I just might record myself saying "about an hour" a couple times.
22:38:57 <tswett> What's a good audiobin site?
22:39:16 <shachaf> I wouldn't be able to listen until this evening.
22:40:35 <tswett> I think it's perfectly likely that I sometimes use a glottal stop there, but I'm pretty sure I don't always.
22:40:37 <oerjan> shachaf: hm a game like those touch typing games, except you actually have to pronounce weird sounds
22:41:31 <oerjan> tswett: for proper science you need to repeat it for about an hour, hth
22:42:05 <shachaf> You pronounce "hour" and "our" the same, right?
22:42:06 <oerjan> then you can combine it with a test of sore throat medication
22:44:56 <oerjan> b_jonas: wtf that comment section is in reverse order
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22:53:59 <Phantom_Hoover> all this talk of glottal stops
22:54:02 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, you around/
22:56:04 <shachaf> No need to ruin everything.
22:58:04 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
22:58:21 <hppavilion[1]> What happens when you raise a matrix to a power or raise a number to the power of a matrix?
22:58:40 <Phantom_Hoover> matrix to an (integer) power is easy
22:58:53 <Phantom_Hoover> number to a matrix is pretty cool, you use the power series
22:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> I haven't been taught it yet.
22:58:59 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh
22:59:03 <Phantom_Hoover> it's just repeated multiplication
22:59:05 <hppavilion[1]> Power series sounds fun
22:59:23 <fizzie> Matrix to an integer power isn't easy if the matrix isn't square. (Or, from another point, it's real easy.)
22:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> well yes
22:59:54 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking about my semiesolang. The one where you can do, for example, `I = comb{SKK}`
23:00:06 <hppavilion[1]> (if you have the combinators syntax imported)
23:00:17 <Phantom_Hoover> and you can't raise a square matrix to a negative power if it's singular
23:00:33 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, what?
23:00:42 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a... hole in matrix power raising?
23:00:48 <hppavilion[1]> I do not like holes in mathematics.
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23:03:15 <hppavilion[1]> What other weird ideas could my language incorporate...
23:03:20 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], matrices are linear transformations, you can't invert them if they map two things to the same point
23:03:29 <hppavilion[1]> Oh.
23:04:15 <hppavilion[1]> I really have no clue what you just said. My knowledge of elementary algebra is one year of algebra I, half a semester of algebra II
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23:04:32 <hppavilion[1]> And a little bit of stuff about complexes, imaginaries, etc.
23:05:16 <oerjan> if a matrix is normal, then you can apply any complex analytic function that's defined on its eigenvalues hth
23:05:24 <hppavilion[1]> Ooooooh. Now I get matrix powers and how it only works with square matrices xD. Silly me, I forgot that matrix multiplication is weird.
23:05:55 <fizzie> You can also take a logarithm of a matrix X, just by finding Y for e^Y = X, where the matrix exponential e^Y is defined by the power series Phantom_Hoover mentions, \sum_k (1/k!) Y^k.
23:06:24 <oerjan> or hm is normality even needed there
23:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], it makes waaay more sense once you understand linear transformations, hth
23:06:42 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, could you not do it on like
23:06:52 <Phantom_Hoover> any jordan normal form?
23:06:57 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Transformations like translation/rotation/reflection/scaling?
23:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], yes
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23:07:08 <hppavilion[1]> I probably just revealed the true level of ignorance I posess
23:07:17 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, wow. I got something right! Yay!
23:07:19 <oerjan> "normal" here is in the A*A = AA* sense
23:07:19 <fizzie> Translation's not linear. Unless you go all homogenous coordinates.
23:07:24 <oerjan> not any normal form
23:07:56 <oerjan> i guess that automatically implies diagonalizability
23:07:59 <hppavilion[1]> I don't really understand them in the context of matrices though (I had no clue what they were talking about during that chapter). And that's probably necessary.
23:08:13 <oerjan> oh wait
23:08:24 <fizzie> (Rotation, reflection and scaling all are.)
23:08:25 <oerjan> normal means you can use any _continuous_ function
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23:09:16 <oerjan> hm what i'm saying may be "trivial" for matrices (i learned it for operators / C*-algebras)
23:09:26 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], you know what the unit vectors are?
23:09:46 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I think I've heard of them, but not realy, no xD.
23:10:16 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, a vector of length one, according to Wikipedia.
23:10:20 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, i'm p. sure what you said is exactly correct for a jordan normal form
23:10:28 <hppavilion[1]> But I also know that there are a lot of ways that vectors can be defined.
23:10:44 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, a spatial vector.
23:10:45 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], right, but the main thing is that you can uniquely define each point in R^n as a sum of unit vectors
23:10:58 <hppavilion[1]> OK
23:11:11 <hppavilion[1]> R being...? Real numbers?
23:11:15 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
23:11:26 <hppavilion[1]> I can't really tell because we're using ASCII (ostensibly)
23:12:54 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm thinking that my language will do some XMLy GUI stuff, because normal GUI stuff is hard.
23:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> so a linear transformation is a function f : R^n -> R^m such that if you know f(u) for each unit vector u, you can calculate f for any point in R^n just from summing the f(u)s
23:13:20 <Phantom_Hoover> (this isn't quite the standard definition)
23:13:22 <fizzie> I like how you worked "F U" in there.
23:13:31 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: I was just going to mention that
23:14:15 <Phantom_Hoover> the columns of a matrix are precisely the values of f(u) for the unit vector along each axis
23:14:31 <fizzie> Although I think this discussion needs to mention a basis at some point.
23:15:01 <fizzie> Otherwise you have too many unit vectors to speak of.
23:15:01 <oerjan> everyone knows a discussion without a basis can never stop
23:15:12 <Phantom_Hoover> i said 'unit vectors' instead, it meant one less concept to explain
23:15:35 <Phantom_Hoover> everyone uses the standard basis on R^n anyway
23:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: When I look at "\"F U\"" all I can see is the F combinator being applied to the U combinator with no arguments. Seriously. Not even kidding. I think I need to get out more.
23:15:46 <oerjan> i think unit vector means something different hth
23:15:46 <fizzie> Yes, but it got all muddied up because unit vectors already got defined as any vector of length 1, thanks to Wikipedia.
23:15:55 <Phantom_Hoover> ah fuck
23:16:10 <Phantom_Hoover> unit vectors along the axis? shit idk what they were called
23:16:23 <oerjan> basis vectors hth
23:16:33 <oerjan> e_n was common iirc
23:16:34 <Guest98361> a unit vector is a vector of length 1 unit. It has nothing to do with direction.
23:16:54 <oerjan> Guest98361: WHO ARE YOU
23:16:58 <oerjan> `relcome Guest98361
23:17:00 <HackEgo> Guest98361: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:17:17 <Guest98361> thx
23:17:37 <fizzie> Wikipedia says "versors", which somehow sounds really old-fashioned. "Versors i, j, k of the Cartesian axes x, y, z for a three-dimensional Euclidean space. Every vector a in that space is a linear combination of these versors."
23:17:54 <shachaf> I thought people were talking about general vector spaces.
23:18:00 <oerjan> fizzie: wat
23:18:16 <fizzie> oerjan: "In geometry and physics, the versor of an axis or of a vector is a unit vector indicating its direction." That's what they say.
23:18:30 <fizzie> It also sounds like an obscure job title in an academical context.
23:18:40 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm pretty sure i don't recall ever seeing that before
23:18:41 <fizzie> Please see the versor of the university for this'n'that.
23:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, general vector spaces are pointless tho
23:19:00 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
23:19:08 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone feel like defining Gaussian Integers in λ-calculus? xD.
23:19:23 <hppavilion[1]> (Kidding. Unless someone actually feels like doing something like that.)
23:19:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: take a pair of ordinary integers. QED.
23:19:57 <hppavilion[1]> Though I suppose technically you could take any infinite pattern and say it represents gaussian integers, the trick is making operations that work on it
23:19:59 <Phantom_Hoover> if they're infinite dimensional you need to do functional analysis, and if they're not then all the shit with the axioms is just wasted time until you prove they're all F^n
23:20:24 <fizzie> "A rig is a riNg without Negatives." That's so punny.
23:20:56 <Phantom_Hoover> so if you have a ring without negatives or identity it's a rg?
23:21:17 <oerjan> obv.
23:22:30 <hppavilion[1]> So could I represent gaussian integers INCLUDING negative values in it? Or would I be limited to just hte "gaussian naturals"
23:23:12 <Phantom_Hoover> like oerjan said, just use pairs of integers
23:24:44 <hppavilion[1]> OR we could invent an entirely alien number system
23:24:49 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone feel like doing that
23:24:50 <hppavilion[1]> ?
23:25:50 <Phantom_Hoover> you're not trying to invent a new number system, you're trying to find a clever representation of the gaussian integers in the lambda calculus
23:26:24 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: You misunderstand me
23:26:42 <hppavilion[1]> I meant to show that I was switching topics.
23:27:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oh ok
23:27:44 <hppavilion[1]> That, since encoding Gaussian Integers into the λ-calculus sounds hard, I could instead make up something completely alien, in the way that an eldritch abomination may see the world.
23:28:12 <hppavilion[1]> Or that they /would/ see the world if they'd been paying attention in /eldribra/
23:28:41 <shachaf> Encoding Gaussian integers might be hard, but encoding arbitrary algebraic data types is pretty easy.
23:28:43 <Phantom_Hoover> encode the p-adics
23:29:03 <shachaf> And once you do that you can encode integers with it.
23:30:07 <shachaf> Are the p-adics harder to encode than the reals?
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23:30:42 <hppavilion[1]> So I would guess that this entirely alien arithmetic would be based on something /other/ than 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...
23:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> The unnaturals, perhaps?
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23:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, no idea at all
23:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> was hoping oerjan would correct me
23:35:04 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I would guess they're of equal difficulty, or that the p-adics are only slightly harder once you've figured out the reals.
23:35:13 <hppavilion[1]> Can p-adics have infinite numbers /after/ the decimal point?
23:35:25 <shachaf> What decimal point?
23:36:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I was told the p-adics were like rationals, except the area before the decimal point can be infinite. Was I lied to?
23:36:36 <hppavilion[1]> (I meant infinitely long numbers)
23:36:48 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe I'm thinking of something else, or maybe I was dreaming.
23:37:28 <shachaf> I doubt you were lied to, but maybe there was a misunderstanding.
23:37:45 <shachaf> Generally there is no decimal point.
23:38:19 <hppavilion[1]> Huh
23:38:55 <shachaf> You don't need one to define multiplicative inverses.
23:44:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: generally you only allow finitely many numbers after the decimal point in p-adics, because that's exactly what you need to make them a field.
23:44:18 <hppavilion[1]> Oh.
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23:44:56 <shachaf> oerjan: You have numbers after the decimal point?
23:45:18 <oerjan> shachaf: or digits, whatev
23:45:30 <shachaf> You have digits after the decimal point?
23:45:36 <shachaf> I guess you can. Hmm.
23:45:54 <oerjan> for the p-adic fields you do. for the p-adic integers you don't.
23:46:19 <oerjan> the former is basically the obvious field extension of the latter.
23:47:47 <oerjan> i think the p-adic integers are easier than the reals, computationally. no pesky problem with whether you're close to 0 or not.
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23:48:37 <oerjan> well
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23:48:47 <oerjan> no problem affecting finding the digits, anyway.
23:50:08 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: yo
23:50:19 <augur> sup my ghostly vacuum cleaner friend
23:50:42 <hppavilion[1]> I thought he was just a canadian guy who lives in an Opera House...
23:51:06 <hppavilion[1]> ("Hoover" can mean Canadian, correct? I hope it's not derogatory if it does xD)
23:51:42 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure the most famous Hoover was not canadian
23:51:53 <hppavilion[1]> Arnold Hoover you mean?
23:52:09 <oerjan> no, J. Edgar
23:52:22 <hppavilion[1]> Oh. Never heard of that one.
23:53:09 <oerjan> arnold doesn't even show up on the google hit page, not even if i add site:wikipedia.org
23:53:21 <oerjan> (for hoover)
23:53:39 <hppavilion[1]> He's a very little-known famous person.
23:54:22 <oerjan> ok i can see that, even adding "arnold" didn't really make any bells ring.
23:55:48 <shachaf> Going by the Google hits, Herbert would seem to be much more famous.
23:56:04 <shachaf> But Hoover certainly seems to be the most famous J. Edgar.
23:56:23 <hppavilion[1]> So I've figured out how to make Brainfuck OO
23:56:45 <hppavilion[1]> (Which, last time I checked, puts it in the range of "acceptable brainfuck derivative"
23:56:50 <oerjan> shachaf: hm herbert came second for me
23:57:03 <shachaf> For what query?
23:57:08 <oerjan> hoover
23:57:18 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should create a BrainfuckDerivative: namespace so that you don't get spammed with BF derivatives when you hit "Random"
23:57:22 <shachaf> I don't see J. Edgar on the first page.
23:57:32 <oerjan> huh
23:57:42 <oerjan> oh my top hits are on the norwegian wikipedia.
23:57:44 <oerjan> hm...
23:58:07 <hppavilion[1]> I'm actually half serious about that idea.
23:58:13 <shachaf> Ah, the google.no results are more like yours.
23:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> That'd fix the BF derivative plague, we just quarantine them to where no one can find one
23:58:59 <hppavilion[1]> s/can find one/will accidentally stumble across one while looking for something good/
23:59:11 <hppavilion[1]> But then we'd need a "random BF derivative" button...
23:59:21 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
23:59:25 <oerjan> removing that site gives herbert a way down, after a lot of vacuuming
23:59:52 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, can you guess someone's accent for m
23:59:53 <Phantom_Hoover> *me
23:59:56 <hppavilion[1]> No one?
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