00:02:00 <\oren\> ff <-- why, did she die of old age?
00:02:02 <\oren\> ff <-- why, did she die of old age?
00:02:04 <\oren\> ff <-- why, did she die of old age?
00:02:37 <\oren\> rrgh I hate the middle click paste
00:04:21 <\oren\> yay, I found a setting to disable it
00:07:02 <\oren\> er, I guess the right click also pasted, which was how I accidentally activated it
00:11:09 -!- bb010g has joined.
00:11:54 -!- bb010g has quit.
00:16:38 -!- bb010g has joined.
00:20:49 <oerjan> izabera: which reminds me, i read a review of the bond movie in the local newspaper and it didn't mention her age at all hth
00:28:35 <quintopia> izabera: i will have way more to do in a week
00:41:23 <izabera> why it in a week when you can do it in a month
00:41:39 <izabera> i added an extra it and ruined it
00:52:19 -!- ^v has joined.
01:02:05 -!- boily has joined.
01:11:19 <Sgeo> pikhq, are you a Gravity Falls fan?
01:16:48 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
01:17:24 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
01:20:27 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:25:53 <Sgeo> hmm that last part didn't work
01:26:01 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
01:30:55 <boily> it's missing a trunk, and snowflakes.
01:32:15 <boily> what's the Japanese onomatopœia for dislocating your mouth while yawning?
01:41:23 <boily> I should knit myself a plush mapole for moments like that.
01:45:59 <boily> hellørjan. I don't know; I should ask some maple farm guy. please wait for next maple season, and I'll answer you then hth
01:47:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: ZZZZ).
01:48:08 <boily> and that's how oerjan went for hibernation. sleep well!
01:50:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to make a 2D, minecraft-esque, adventure map-oriented RPG engine
01:51:17 <hppavilion[1]> In PyOpenGL. And use Py2exe to distribute it. Because I can't be bothered to use a good programming language!
01:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> Maaaaybe I should use a language that runs on the JVM for efficiency
01:53:42 <boily> Python is quite good.
01:55:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i haven't played hyperrogue either but i've read about it
01:56:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i love how it has an entire giant quest consisting solely of finding the centre of a radius 14 circle
02:00:33 <boily> bhaaaah... not that slow...
02:00:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:00:48 <boily> just hook in some C++ with SWIG and you're set!
02:10:58 <\oren\> idea: a roguelike that obviates the need to use a square font by using chinese characters for objects, enemies etc.
02:12:29 <boily> in a room with high 壁, you battle 龍 by throwing 石 at them?
02:13:51 <boily> then the pack of rabid 龍 breathe 獄火 at you (人).
02:14:03 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
02:14:21 <boily> (speaking of rabid dragons, I can't recall having ever seen anything "rabid" in any roguelikes.)
02:14:40 <boily> but now it's time to teethbrush then bedsleep.
02:14:58 <boily> \oren\: do you have 獄 in your font?
02:15:13 -!- boily has quit (Quit: DISK CHICKEN).
02:20:12 -!- copumpkin has joined.
02:21:13 -!- zzo38 has joined.
02:22:16 -!- ^v has joined.
02:23:17 <shachaf> i was just thinking the other day about how you haven't been around in a while
02:23:45 <copumpkin> I cleared out my computer and was procrastinating restoring my IRC client config
02:26:07 -!- mauris has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:30:21 -!- TieSoul has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:52:58 -!- lleu has joined.
02:52:58 -!- lleu has quit (Changing host).
02:52:58 -!- lleu has joined.
03:24:51 <zzo38> Now I made up a few more Magic: the Gathering cards, and I also added another file for "Un" cards
03:27:29 <shachaf> You always say that without links.
03:27:59 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:28:08 -!- FireFly has joined.
03:32:35 <zzo38> Do you know when is glogbot fixed?
03:48:18 <izabera> https://github.com/izabera/mal/blob/master/process/guide.md#step1
03:48:27 <izabera> they're using this regex [\s,]*(~@|[\[\]{}()'`~^@]|"(?:\\.|[^\\"])*"|;.*|[^\s\[\]{}('"`,;)]*)
03:48:58 <izabera> why "(?:\\.|[^\\"])*" instead of "(\\.|[^\\"])*" ?
03:49:41 <izabera> do they actually use the ?: part?
03:50:04 <izabera> i mean would it hurt if i don't use it?
03:50:42 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:51:22 <izabera> that's the only part that requires PCRE
03:51:47 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
03:53:21 -!- shikhin has joined.
03:53:27 -!- FireFly has joined.
03:53:37 -!- JesseH has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:55:34 <izabera> i guess i don't need it \o/
03:55:45 <izabera> thanks guys for the support
03:59:34 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:02:28 -!- jaboja has joined.
04:16:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABCs]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44991&oldid=43379 * Paul2520 * (+18) testing __NOEDITSECTION__
04:18:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABCs]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44992&oldid=44991 * Paul2520 * (-18) removing __NOEDITSECTION__
04:19:41 <hppavilion[1]> How does when implement a dynamically typed language in a statically typed language I wonder?
04:19:53 -!- codergeek42 has joined.
04:19:53 -!- codergeek42 has quit (Changing host).
04:19:53 -!- codergeek42 has joined.
04:22:43 <paul2520> hppavilion[1]: ah, forgot about that
04:31:08 <hppavilion[1]> I want to create an "all valid ASCII is acceptable" (barring control characters, perhaps) language that isn't character-by-character (or more generally, chunk-by-chunk)
04:32:35 <codergeek42> hppavilion[1], but that seems oddly contradictory -- if your constraint is character based (that they are each ASCII, or in some reasonable subset thereof); how will the language itself not be character-based?
04:33:19 <hppavilion[1]> codergeek42: I mean not like brainfuck, where ever character is an instruction; I want a language with some structure to it
04:33:55 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
04:35:24 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
04:36:18 -!- FireFly has joined.
04:37:38 -!- shikhin has joined.
04:37:43 <hppavilion[1]> codergeek42: I was inspired by a language called "Garbage" which takes any ASCII text and produces ASCII output. Never saw what came of it though
04:37:59 <hppavilion[1]> The person looked like a potential esolanger, but I haven't seen them on the wiki
04:38:25 <hppavilion[1]> So I don't think they knew they weren't alone in the world in being a surrealist programmers
04:39:46 -!- skarn has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
04:41:19 -!- skarn has joined.
04:46:11 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
04:47:13 <codergeek42> Hmm, yeah I had a classmate who mentioned Garbage last semester. Interesting concept but not much fleshed-out at the time.
04:47:18 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:47:26 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
04:50:39 -!- shikhin has joined.
04:50:41 -!- FireFly has joined.
04:52:11 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see more ternary operators than just x?y:z
04:54:06 <zzo38> What kind of other ternary operator? Possibly, median operator of three numbers
04:57:36 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Median would be better as a panary (omnary? infinary? indefinary?) operator, taking an undefined number of arguments, and at that point you're just dealing with functions
04:58:45 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:59:01 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
05:02:30 -!- FireFly has joined.
05:02:34 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:02:41 -!- shikhin has joined.
05:02:52 <codergeek42> hppavilion[1],well isn't that what operators are? In every langauge I'm comfortable with, operators are nothing more than "special" functions
05:03:00 -!- Frooxius has joined.
05:03:20 <codergeek42> And in fact, you can call them as functions instead of using their operator syntax
05:03:51 <hppavilion[1]> codergeek42: I take it you use python? Or is it some other language you're talking about?
05:04:06 <codergeek42> For example, if(myString.__contains__('A')) instead of (if 'A' in myString) in Python
05:06:00 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
05:06:18 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:07:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
05:08:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:10:38 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:13:57 <Sgeo_> https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/d363c7fbef92a285d8ef
05:14:12 <zzo38> Yes, although, median can also be particularly useful in the case of three arguments, such as if you want it to not go beyond a range 0 to 255 but rather to stop at the limits
05:16:33 <zzo38> I think the tunes log URL should have ?C=M;O=D at the end so that you can have the new one at first like the one of codu does too.
05:19:40 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
05:19:57 -!- FireFly has joined.
05:19:59 -!- shikhin has joined.
05:20:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
05:29:35 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
05:30:23 -!- shikhin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:47:34 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
05:51:55 <newsham> check out fig5 on page 15 here: http://www.labri.fr/perso/fleury/courses/software-security/material/exploitation/return-oriented-programming/jop/TR-2010-8.pdf
05:52:33 <newsham> execution starts when lines 66-71 are used as args to a longjmp
06:12:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:15:12 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
06:16:45 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:17:07 -!- shikhin has joined.
06:32:05 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
06:32:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:33:03 -!- shikhin has joined.
06:33:09 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:55:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
06:59:25 -!- codergeek42 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat).
07:41:22 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/BeLActl this is bjarne stroustrup
08:03:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
08:05:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44993&oldid=44794 * Zzo38 * (+978)
08:21:31 -!- nitrix has changed nick to nii-san.
08:24:34 -!- nii-san has changed nick to nitrix.
08:29:15 <zzo38> Have you try to think of what some cards are meaning with R&D's Secret Lair in play? Some people argue about it.
08:43:04 <shachaf> If rules were changed after a card was printed, does it let you pay with pre-change rules?
08:47:36 <zzo38> But I think it would allow the Alpha version of Lightning Bolt to target any object, player, or zone, even if not in play (although it does nothing to most objects as they cannot be damaged); rule 400.11 says something doing to a zone does to all cards in that zone, so maybe this means you can damage all nontoken creatures and planeswalkers with one spell, even if they have shroud/hexproof
08:52:19 <zzo38> Some people said that Floral Spuzzem tries to make a decision and therefore it is a player; but I think that is wrong. If a card tries to do something that only a player can do, that does not make it a player; even if it did, you would control that player and therefore make choices for it.
09:00:17 <zzo38> Someone said basic lands no longer do anything. No! They have an implicit mana ability due to their subtype. The ones from Odyssey do nothing. An Island from Ice Age taps for mana normally, but is not an Island; it is just named "Island".
09:00:31 <zzo38> (It is also not a basic land.)
09:01:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:09:05 <zzo38> They say "An Exodus version of Sonic Burst is another turn-two win." No! I do not believe so! It has an activated ability which cannot be activated (because it is an instant and cannot come into play), so it does nothing.
09:29:45 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
09:40:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
09:52:09 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
09:52:42 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
09:59:40 -!- FireFly has joined.
09:59:40 -!- shikhin has joined.
11:05:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bexandre * New user account
11:08:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:09:17 -!- sebbu has joined.
11:11:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44994 * Bexandre * (+307) Created page with "<pre>display Hello everyone! continue cls display My name is Bexandre, and I am a programmer display since I'm 11 years old. I'm programming a display whole new esoteric progr..."
11:15:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44995&oldid=44994 * Bexandre * (+531)
11:25:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44996&oldid=44711 * SuperJedi224 * (+23) /* Instructions */
11:26:24 <Jafet> What the fungot is a programmer display?
11:26:24 <fungot> Jafet: before this routine will designate the logical not is determined primarily by its " waveform.
11:27:18 <int-e> aaaah, "display" is a command there.
11:29:05 <fungot> olsner: the operand is separated by commas. loops can be retrieved one at a time ( instead of either the transmit buffer or the basic routines without knowing their addrses in the
11:29:39 <int-e> retrieving loops sounds interesting as well.
11:29:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
11:30:03 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
11:30:25 <int-e> fungot: enlighten us
11:30:25 <fungot> int-e: read q1 reads 63 numbers, using sprite 1 and 3.
11:31:08 <olsner> fungot: how do you read numbers with sprites?
11:33:05 <int-e> fungot: let me meditate on that
11:33:05 <fungot> int-e: untlk 60911, 65451 ( decimal).
11:33:54 <olsner> fungot: are you just playing numberwang?
11:33:54 <fungot> olsner: 1) set the a register is set to 1, so a(0) can be used to control multiple voices. computer ready? type new, run, the routine
11:35:45 <int-e> . o O ( Horn numberwang: "I don't know whether 42 is numberwang, but I've been told that if 57 and 3517 are numberwang, then 42 is numberwang as well." )
11:36:18 <olsner> I don't think that's the kind of logic that numberwang respects
11:36:38 <int-e> That's fine because it's not numberwang; it's Horn numberwang.
11:39:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44997 * Bexandre * (+1897) Created page with "== Syntax == Firstly, there is no higher cases. It will beget a giant black hole in the sky... Except for text and for numbers (var names from 0 to 99 only).<br /> <span style..."
11:39:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44998&oldid=44997 * Bexandre * (+6)
11:39:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44999&oldid=44998 * Bexandre * (-6)
11:40:45 <fizzie> fungot: Give me some more numbers, please.
11:40:45 <fungot> fizzie: each dot will be displayed, the other three will be written to the beginning of vic-ii memory ( page number=location/ 256) and
11:41:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45000&oldid=44995 * Bexandre * (+26)
11:41:15 <fizzie> fungot: That's good, I wouldn't want any dots to be left out.
11:41:15 <fungot> fizzie: what makes the mouse dances. ( see video bank selection section). this can be set to zero, then when the address inputs select the paddles on controller port, it gets hopelessly confused, making the change from basic.
11:41:33 <fizzie> I'm hopelessly confused.
11:42:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45001&oldid=44999 * Bexandre * (-5)
11:43:46 <int-e> rodent circus: mail delivery
11:44:11 <int-e> fungot: tell us more about mice
11:44:11 <fungot> int-e: 130 for q= 1 to 7 allows you to examine tape data. the
11:45:16 <int-e> fungot: and now be incoherent?
11:45:16 <fungot> int-e: a=96 and 32: print a mid(b,8,8), the not operator, 13-16, 31, 38, 340, 356, 375 reverse on, poke 783,247.
11:46:00 <int-e> fungot: and eww, I wouldn't touch that memory with a ten foot pole.
11:46:00 <fungot> int-e: windows 95 ms-dos edit is the same line. the smallest floating-point number is known as pages. page 0 offset of the kernal
11:46:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45002&oldid=45001 * Bexandre * (+33)
11:47:33 <int-e> `le/rn page/The smallest floating-point number is known as pages. Fungot discovered it.
11:50:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45003&oldid=45002 * Bexandre * (+0)
11:53:03 <fizzie> fungot: How do I call the kernal?
11:53:03 <fungot> fizzie: lda 16 load high order indirect address contained in the
11:54:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45004&oldid=45000 * Bexandre * (+84)
11:54:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45005&oldid=45004 * Bexandre * (+6)
11:55:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45006&oldid=45005 * Bexandre * (+4)
11:58:07 <izabera> can you reprogram it to avoid sentences that end in the?
11:59:07 <int-e> I think fizzie would have to retrain the language model...
11:59:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AIV]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45007 * Bexandre * (+1560) Created page with "'''AIV'''<ref>[http://www.mediafire.com/download/dcixadngm9lgye8/aiv.exe]</ref> is an [[esoteric programming language]] that uses french quotes instead of brackets. == Basics ..."
12:00:06 <int-e> and that wouldn't prevent fungot from stopping in the middle of
12:00:06 <fungot> int-e: rem statements are used if the stop key on the right edge of the seed value is automatically executed when an rs-232 file discards all data in location 56333 ( dc0d). bits 3,2, and numbers 1-8 at the entry for the two types of operation over a short time, it is time to print the name portion equals 187 bytes.
12:00:15 <int-e> it would just be breaking on different words ;)
12:00:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AIV]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45008&oldid=45007 * Bexandre * (-10)
12:02:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45009&oldid=45003 * Bexandre * (+1)
12:03:54 -!- mauris has joined.
12:04:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45010&oldid=45009 * Bexandre * (-6)
12:19:21 <fizzie> The broken sentences are probably due to lines that weren't unbroken.
12:20:11 <izabera> then you have to broke them to make them not unbroken :o
12:20:12 <fizzie> The stopping that fungot does is a bit ad-hoc.
12:20:12 <fungot> fizzie: 1) call this routine, you get the x and y position at which each possible dot ( pixel) of the control ctrl key and type rvs on ( set to 1
12:22:07 <fizzie> But it should never stop in a place that wasn't an end of line in the original training data.
12:22:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:23:02 <fizzie> Just that some of the materials weren't so properly converted to paragraph/sentence-per-line format.
12:26:22 <fizzie> An obstacle for retraining this particular style is that I have no idea what the actual source text was. I haven't been very systematic when it comes to fungot styles.
12:26:22 <fungot> fizzie: bits 4-7 of pw hi are not ordinary variables that you've told basic not to use the jump table will give its examples in this case you must set both the required calculations and/ or ram.
12:27:20 <fizzie> On the plus side, the swipe-style keyboard on this phone has learned to spell fungot impressively well. All I need to do is to draw a little squiggle that looks a bit like it.
12:27:20 <fungot> fizzie: the four-part adsr ( attack, decay, and
12:28:00 <fizzie> (Alternative suggestions: dinghy, finfoot, cubit.)
12:28:41 <fizzie> fungot: And sustain and release?
12:28:42 <fungot> fizzie: for example, load"file",8,1) from the vic-ii control register to the numbers 0 255 can be used for screen graphics on a low-going edge. the
12:33:25 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:39:41 <FreeFull> I've never used a swipe keyboard
12:39:46 <FreeFull> I should try it out at some point
12:40:52 <fizzie> For the record, I'm just using the stock Android one.
12:41:08 <fizzie> It works a whole lot better for English than Finnish.
12:41:53 <int-e> fizzie: IIRC you're at google, are you anywhere close to people who train these things?
12:43:10 <FreeFull> Good thing I don't write any finnish then
12:43:40 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
12:43:43 <fizzie> Not really, though maybe not quite as far as I could be. I don't know who they are, though.
12:43:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:45:27 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
12:45:48 <fizzie> (It makes an attempt at all the Finnish noun cases and verb tenses, but still misses many. Plus we have these meaningful double consonants and vowels, and there's no way to indicate a length of a character when swiping, I don't think it takes pauses into account at all.)
12:50:03 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
12:57:22 -!- JesseH has joined.
12:59:51 <Taneb> I'm doing a talk on esolangs in an hour and a half
13:10:00 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: so far, INTERCAL, brainfuck, Befunge, Piet, Underload, and ///
13:12:00 <Taneb> Any more you'd suggest?
13:15:29 -!- TieSoul has joined.
13:27:18 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: but then I'd have to travel back in time and stop myself
13:27:27 <Taneb> (I did actually think about it)
13:33:01 <int-e> how about that finite state machine... malbolge...
13:33:57 <int-e> (probably not a good idea; I wouldn't know what to say beyond "this is how it works" and "and here's a guy who managed to produce an actual loop for 99 bottles of beer")
13:35:38 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, hmm you should do a sub- or super-tc language though
13:43:16 -!- tromp has joined.
13:43:29 <myname> Taneb: wh not funciton?
13:48:01 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated).
13:48:14 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: rebooting).
13:53:50 -!- Melvar has joined.
13:59:12 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
14:12:48 <int-e> How about that reversible one, hmm, *googles* Kayak
14:26:41 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
14:29:25 -!- idris-bot has joined.
14:35:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:58:09 <Taneb> myname: largely because I don't know funciton
15:02:40 <Taneb> Might talk about Banana Scheme
15:02:48 <Taneb> (talk has been delayed)
15:03:25 <int-e> ((())()) <-- bananas?
15:05:11 <izabera> is that a new lisp dialect?
15:06:37 <int-e> ok, I read the esolangs page and I'm not sure why it's "Banana" scheme.
15:07:07 <int-e> (it's a name, but does it have a deeper meaning that I fail to see?)
15:33:28 <Taneb> People seem to be going to the other talk
15:43:50 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
15:43:52 <oerjan> <zzo38> Do you know when is glogbot fixed? <-- first Gregor has to start paying attention...
15:44:13 <oerjan> which is tricky when he's not in a channel. i did send him a privmsg
15:45:43 -!- evalj has joined.
15:51:55 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> How does when implement a dynamically typed language in a statically typed language I wonder? <-- you define a catch-all data type with tags hth
15:57:31 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Corruptic Channello | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
15:57:43 <Jafet> Many dynamically typed languages are implemented in C.
15:57:56 <oerjan> zzo38: i know it used to have ?C=M;O=D before, so i changed it
15:58:02 <Jafet> Well, some of them are also implemented in the statically typed subset of C.
15:59:13 <oerjan> Jafet: and then you usually use struct + union for the tagging, no?
16:00:06 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
16:00:35 <oerjan> does that count as statically typed btw, it's very weak since you can accidentally try to read the wrong union element
16:04:16 <Jafet> Sure, useless static typing is still static typing
16:05:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AIV]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45011&oldid=45008 * 79.80.231.235 * (+28)
16:24:33 * oerjan assumes disappointment
16:30:07 <Taneb> oerjan: a lot of people went to the other talk on at the same time, about running your own mobile operator or something
16:30:26 <Taneb> So there were about 20% of the people at this event went to my talk
16:31:06 <oerjan> the obvious thing to do is to start a funge-based mobile operator
16:38:04 <newsham> http://i.imgur.com/MUwEgfk.png
16:39:00 <newsham> ^^^ "JOP". control of "found code" using code that ends in jumps, and a dispatch table.
16:40:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45012&oldid=44987 * SuperJedi224 * (+198)
16:40:46 -!- mbrcknl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:41:37 <newsham> in that example, code execution starts when the buf at line65 is used by "longjmp"
16:42:29 <newsham> the "mangled" addrs are due to the way longjmp tries to protect some saved regs
16:43:10 <newsham> the comments showing what code is ref'd by each addr should be enough to follow the rest of the execution
16:43:55 <newsham> the basic gist is the table at lines 51-61 (labelled g00-g0a) form a list of of statements to execute
16:44:08 -!- mbrcknl has joined.
16:44:19 <newsham> and the "dispatch" code is executed after each step to direct execution back to the table
16:44:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45013&oldid=45012 * SuperJedi224 * (+23) /* Instructions */
16:44:43 <tswett> int-e: I believe Banana Scheme is named after this: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/O/one-banana-problem.html
16:44:45 <newsham> fun, non-traditional execution of x86 code
16:47:19 <tswett> Man, it'd be nice if my opponents in FNM would quit questioning the Standard-legality of my cards.
16:47:38 <tswett> If you think one of my cards is not legal in the format I'm playing, here's a rule of thumb for determining whether or not you're right:
16:50:42 <int-e> but... they only have your word for that...
16:54:09 <tswett> Let's see, what did I get wrong this time? Madness doesn't work the way its reminder text implies. Suspend only works for a card in your hand, even if another effect says you may cast it.
17:05:09 -!- aretecode has joined.
17:08:21 -!- Wright has joined.
17:09:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45014&oldid=45013 * SuperJedi224 * (-9) /* Instructions */
17:10:35 <int-e> newsham: it's cute but it takes a while to digest
17:12:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45015&oldid=45014 * SuperJedi224 * (+7) /* Instructions */
17:16:04 <int-e> in any case http://cs.binghamton.edu/~mkayaalp/jop.html is probably a more useful link than an image rendered from a paper.
17:16:22 -!- variable has joined.
17:23:32 <b_jonas> tswett: I think the rule in that case is that they can call a judge, who shall verify that the card is legal.
17:23:57 <tswett> What I want isn't really reasonable. But I still want it.
17:24:28 <b_jonas> And the judge can also tell them the oracle text of the card, which is often useful if you play with old or non-English printings.
17:25:06 <b_jonas> Although that's usually less frequent in Standard.
17:25:54 <b_jonas> Do you often play with such cards? I have lots of old cards (though most of them aren't in Standard), but very few non-English ones.
17:27:29 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said).
17:29:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45016&oldid=45015 * SuperJedi224 * (+65) /* Instructions */
17:34:43 <b_jonas> I particularly had problems with Hidden Spider. It's printed with the trigger saying "successfully casts a creature with flying", when I bought it the Oracle text used to look for "creature with flying comes into play", but it was later changed to "plays a creature spell with flying" then "casts a creature spell with flying";
17:35:17 <b_jonas> while Veiled Serpent, which is also printed with "successfully casts a spell", cared about "plays a spell" or "casts a spell" all the time.
17:35:46 <b_jonas> And these are both a cycle, there are like five Hidden and five Veiled creatures.
17:38:02 <b_jonas> And to complicate the matters, the Hidden creatures work two different ways.
17:38:31 <b_jonas> There's also some creatures where the creature types aren't obvious. In particular, it's not so easy to guess that Mine Carrier is a human.
17:39:08 <b_jonas> Or that Hollow Dogs is a zombie, while Skeletal Crocodile is a Skeleton.
17:39:18 <b_jonas> Seriously, what's with Hollow Dogs?
17:39:27 <tswett> My current deck has a couple of reprinted cards. I think they're Shivan Dragon and Terra Stomper from M15.
17:39:31 <b_jonas> I think Hollow Dogs is a mistake.
17:39:44 <b_jonas> tswett: M15 isn't really old, is it?
17:39:58 <tswett> Certainly not. It's not in Standard, though.
17:41:24 <b_jonas> Hmm, what cheap green mana producer creature is in Standard now? Arbor Elf and Llanowar Elves and BoP are all out now. Is it the two mana Arbor Elf?
17:42:05 <\oren\> uh, copper myr produces green man
17:42:09 <b_jonas> (I like Arbor Elf. I should buy more, because it goes better in my green decks than the Llanowar Elves, of which I have enough copies that I'd bought before Arbor Elf was printed.)
17:42:40 <b_jonas> Yes, the Myrs are nice, I have a playset of the cycle
17:43:20 <b_jonas> and no, the two mana Arbor Elf isn't in standard
17:44:11 <b_jonas> It's called Voyaging Satyr
17:44:46 <oerjan> isn't this a rather inaccurate statement https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haskell_(programming_language)&curid=27404990&diff=688378387&oldid=684901079#Haskell_1.0_to_1.4
17:45:09 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haskell_(programming_language)&curid=27404990&diff=688378387&oldid=684901079
17:45:33 <\oren\> confirmed: Copper Myr 2 | T: Add G to your mana pool. /The elves thought of the myr as minor threats, just as the myr thought of the elves.
17:46:13 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, but it's not in Standard anymore, is it?
17:46:42 <\oren\> how do I find that out
17:46:53 <b_jonas> by the way, the funniest (but mostly useless) myr is Myr Servitor
17:49:05 <\oren\> hmm mine has a sword as the expansion symbol
17:49:23 <b_jonas> \oren\: the Sword of Kaldra, so it's printed in the Mirrodin block?
17:49:29 <b_jonas> \oren\: it's reprinted in Scars
17:50:29 <\oren\> Hmm while searching I cam across a crazy card
17:50:45 <oerjan> oops, are those trick and treaters, i'm not used to being in a place where they actually come by
17:51:14 <b_jonas> by the way, Myrs are nice because almost all of them have Myr in their name. very few creature types are disciplined in that way. Slivers are even better, plus a few rare creature types like Eye.
17:52:00 <oerjan> i'm not sure they are, anyway, could be just party goers
17:52:06 <shachaf> well, which one are you going to choose
17:52:15 <b_jonas> Nightmare night! What a fright! Give us something sweet to bite!
17:52:24 <oerjan> i'm going to depend on my trusty non-working doorbell hth
17:52:47 <b_jonas> sure, it exists everywhere where shops can sell expensive Haloween costumes and decorations, and where people watched american films in the VC
17:53:06 <shachaf> next time i'm trick-or-treating in trondheim i'll remember to knock
17:53:30 <b_jonas> Back when I was young, children used to put on costumes at the end of February. Now they're instead doing it on Halloween.
17:53:49 -!- jaboja has joined.
17:54:34 <b_jonas> “You wish for me to cow your enemies?”
17:54:47 <oerjan> shachaf: it's not like i remembered to buy any extra candy, anyway. although i do have this bag of chocolate peanuts...
17:55:13 <shachaf> you might have to dip into the oerjanstash
17:56:53 <oerjan> b_jonas: in norway they used to do it between christmas and new year
17:56:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ziim]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45017&oldid=44068 * Timwi * (-17) Change the semantics of the READ instruction so that Ziim no longer depends on UTF-8.
17:57:32 <oerjan> mind you, i have no idea if they still do.
17:58:01 <oerjan> and then they would go to people singing christmas carols
17:58:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45018&oldid=45016 * SuperJedi224 * (+69) /* Instructions */
17:58:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45019&oldid=45018 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Instructions */
17:58:37 <tswett> Sweet, I got an 83% percent on that last Easy practice exam. That's my best score yet.
17:58:38 <\oren\> Huh. I dodn't know there were lands that give you more than one mana
17:59:03 <\oren\> (I apparenly have a "Simic Growth chamber")
17:59:23 <b_jonas> \oren\: the Ravnica bouncelands? yes, those are nice
17:59:37 <b_jonas> there's actually lands older than that that do it, but the bouncelands are better
17:59:48 <b_jonas> there's an old cycle of five, plus some very old but broken lands
18:00:33 <b_jonas> the cycle of five is like the Ravnica bouncelands, but much worse, because they required to bounce an *untapped* land. that's much more of a drawback than bouncing any land.
18:01:01 <b_jonas> the Ravnica bouncelands were quite good in limited, people picked them and the Signets when only one color matched.
18:01:16 <b_jonas> they're also useful in casual constructed, but not much in competition constructed
18:01:36 <b_jonas> I'd like mono bouncelands, ones that produce two of a color, but that probably won't happen.
18:02:06 <tswett> Main thing I got wrong: the Protection ability doesn't protect against an effect that says "destroy".
18:02:07 <b_jonas> Still, I can use the bouncelands in mono-colored decks.
18:02:10 <tswett> Which is certainly counterintuitive.
18:02:18 <b_jonas> tswett: of course it doesn't.
18:02:40 <tswett> What do you mean, of course it doesn't?
18:02:45 <b_jonas> protection protects only from four and a half things.
18:03:16 <tswett> Yup. Lemme enumerate them...
18:03:20 <b_jonas> if an object or player has protecetion from foo, then it can't be blocked by creatures that are foo, can't be dealt damage by sources that are foo,
18:03:38 <b_jonas> can't be targetted by spells that are foo or abilities of objects that are foo,
18:03:42 <tswett> Targeting, enchantment, equipment and fortification, damage, blocking.
18:03:50 <tswett> I count five and a half.
18:03:54 <b_jonas> and can't be enchanted or equipped or fortified.
18:03:59 <b_jonas> right, five and a half, sorry.
18:05:26 <tswett> Just sort of counterintuitive. "You have been given the gift of Protection from Red. Red things can no longer target, enchant, equip, fortify, damage, or block you. They can still outright kill you, but they can't do it by means of damage or anything like that."
18:06:04 <b_jonas> and "can't be enchanted or equipped" means two things: that you can't choose to attach an object to it, namely, if an aura etb other than by being cast, and you have to choose a permanent, you can't choose one with protection from it unless the rules allow, and you can't choose to attach equipment with such abilities either;
18:06:59 <b_jonas> but also that if an aura or equipment is attached to a permanent with protection from it (eg. because the permanent gains protection), it is unattached, and if it's an aura, it's put to the graveyard.
18:07:07 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:07:13 -!- lleu has joined.
18:07:48 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, but many things that would kill the permanent target. eg. Disenchant or Doom Blade target. Day of Judgement doesn't.
18:09:00 <b_jonas> Nor does Nausea or Infest, but those don't destroy either.
18:09:29 <b_jonas> But Hurricane won't kill creatures with protection from green, because it would deal damage.
18:09:56 <b_jonas> Needle Storm, I mean Needle Storm.
18:11:50 <tswett> Enchantment — Aura. Enchant permanent. Only creatures are legal targets for this spell. Enchanted permanent isn't a creature.
18:12:54 <b_jonas> tswett: oh, I have a protection card idea too. it's an enchantment that gives reverse protection. an Aura for 1W with “Enchant creature. / All permanents have protection from enchanted creature."
18:13:11 <tswett> Ooh, I like that idea.
18:14:12 <tswett> "Enchant color. All permanents have protection from enchanted color."
18:14:26 <tswett> Not actually theoretically valid, I think. Only objects and zones can be targeted, and colors aren't objects.
18:14:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45020&oldid=45019 * SuperJedi224 * (+20) /* Instructions */
18:14:42 <b_jonas> tswett: I don't think that one would be printed. It doesn't cause rules trouble, but typeless permanents should be more difficult to make, for flavor reasons. But there's some card that turns artifact creatures to non-creature artifacts somewhere.
18:15:26 <tswett> Reify. Sorcery. Choose a rules-defined concept. That concept becomes an object until end of turn.
18:15:29 <b_jonas> tswett: "Enchant color" doesn't work, you can enchant only objects, players, and zones,
18:15:32 <b_jonas> but there's something similar
18:16:04 <tswett> Wait... I think the rules imply that you *can't* enchant a player.
18:16:41 <tswett> Only objects, players, and zones can be targeted.
18:16:42 <b_jonas> there's Absolute Grace and Absolute Law that gives all creatures protection from a particular color
18:16:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45021&oldid=45020 * SuperJedi224 * (+240) /* Instructions */
18:16:51 <tswett> Haha, for a moment I thought it's impossible to ever target a player.
18:17:01 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, and there's one or two enchantments that enchant players, and _much more_ sorceries and instants that target a player
18:17:14 <b_jonas> Lava Axe is about the most famous one
18:17:30 <tswett> Lava Axe. Sorcery. Choose a player. Lava Axe deals 5 damage to that player.
18:18:18 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:18:37 <b_jonas> Ok, maybe not. Ancestral Recall might be more famous. But there's lots of sorceries and instants that target a player anyway.
18:18:46 <tswett> "I cast Lava Axe." "Against who—me or that other kid?" "Oh, I dunno."
18:19:15 <b_jonas> There's Distress and lots of other discarders
18:19:53 <b_jonas> Hymn to Tourach is well-known because it's among the more powerful ones,
18:20:05 <b_jonas> and... what's the other powerful one?
18:20:10 <tswett> Ancestral Recall. Instant. Choose one — Draw three cards. Choose an opponent and physically force that opponent to draw three cards.
18:20:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
18:20:56 <b_jonas> "physically force"? no way
18:20:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
18:21:26 <tswett> Sure you can. It'd be banned in Vintage, though.
18:22:20 <tswett> I don't think there's any part of the rules saying the players can't be subject to physical harm.
18:22:44 <tswett> Tournament rules, maybe, but not game rules.
18:22:51 <tswett> Besides, cards override those.
18:23:30 <tswett> Untouchable. Sorcery. For the remainder of the tournament, you can't be disqualified.
18:23:33 <b_jonas> tswett: no, but the card specifically says that that player draws, not that you force him to draw,
18:24:08 <b_jonas> further, you must give that player the chance to concede before he reveals the cards he draws if you have a Telepathy in play
18:24:29 <tswett> Right, they always have to have the chance to concede.
18:25:29 <b_jonas> obviously this applies not only to power nine, but more recent cards that make the opponent draw cards, eg. Inspiration
18:25:46 <tswett> Enchantment — Aura. Enchant player. Enchanted player can't concede. (This ability has no effect.)
18:27:21 <b_jonas> there are actually 19 auras that enchant a player
18:27:39 <b_jonas> but I hope there's still only two or three cards that give an ability to a player
18:28:39 <tswett> *. This card has all characteristics. (It has all names, mana costs, colors, card types, subtypes, supertypes, rules texts, abilities, powers, toughnesses, and loyalties.)
18:29:26 <tswett> All mana costs, powers, and toughnesses. I think that wouldn't really work.
18:30:33 <b_jonas> what are the cards that give an ability to a player?
18:30:34 <tswett> I was making an unrelated remark, not answering your question.
18:31:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45022&oldid=45021 * SuperJedi224 * (+58) /* Example Programs */
18:31:06 <tswett> Runed Halo is another.
18:31:50 <b_jonas> tswett: all characteristics? I don't think that works. what would Rush of Knowledge and similar cards do if you have a permanent like that in play?
18:32:22 <tswett> Aegis of the Gods is another.
18:32:30 <tswett> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=|[%22player%20has%22]|[%22you%20have%22]|[%22opponent%20has%22]|[%22she%20has%22]
18:33:22 <b_jonas> wait, that's solved automatically
18:33:31 <b_jonas> you can't have such an object on the battlefield
18:34:20 <b_jonas> because it's an Instant and a Sorcery, and in fact you can't even have it in your deck, because it's also a Plane, Vanguard, Scheme, Conspiracy, and whatever is the fifth and sixth such type too
18:34:58 <b_jonas> I'm not even sure you can have it in your sideboard. You can have Conspiracies in your sideboard, but I'm not sure about Planes
18:34:59 -!- mroman has joined.
18:35:16 <tswett> Imperial Mask is another one.
18:36:01 <b_jonas> But it certainly can't etb, and if it is on the battlefield and gets Broken or loses Humility, it will get removed from the battlefield
18:36:02 <tswett> Guess I should have also included "players have", "opponents have", "teammate has", "teammates have", and (gulp) "they have".
18:37:10 <tswett> Presumably "no maximum hand size" is not an ability.
18:37:34 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:38:52 <b_jonas> ah yes, so Aegis of the Gods, Gilded Light, Imperial Mask, Ivory Mask, Leyline of Sanctity (is that a real word?), Orbs of Warding, Runed Halo, Seht's Tiger, Solitary Confinement, Spirit of the Hearth, True Believer, Witchbane Orb.
18:38:57 <b_jonas> I thought there were fewer than those
18:39:13 <b_jonas> that makes 12 that I found
18:40:05 <tswett> You're looking at them too.
18:40:20 <tswett> And yeah, "leyline" and "sanctity" are both real words.
18:40:30 <b_jonas> I totally thought there were fewer.
18:40:36 <b_jonas> Heck, most of those aren't even very new.
18:42:28 <b_jonas> And I think giving even a card that isn't a permanent all mana costs, all powers, or all toughnesses, could cause a problem, because there are effects that care about those numbers; though giving a non-permanent more than one mana cost is fine and already happens,
18:42:39 <b_jonas> and I think more than one power or toughness could be dealt with.
18:43:19 <b_jonas> I think nothing currently has more than one power or toughness at the same time, but it wouldn't break anything on non-permanents.
18:43:50 <tswett> Wait, What Were You Before? Enchantment. You're a creature.
18:44:42 <b_jonas> tswett: that doesn't work, so much that they wouldn't dare to print it even on Form of the Squirrel in un-land
18:45:32 <b_jonas> tswett: MaRo reports that he originally wanted to print it with "As Form of the Squirrel comes into play, put a 1/1 green Squirrel token into play. You are that Squirrel"
18:45:48 <b_jonas> but that doesn't work even in un-land
18:46:19 <b_jonas> later they printed Form of the Dragon in non-un, but of course it also doesn't make you a creature
18:48:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45023&oldid=45022 * SuperJedi224 * (+420) /* Instructions */
18:50:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:50:42 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
18:51:14 <tswett> You. Enchantment. You're a 2/2 creature. You aren't destroyed as a result of having toughness 0 or less, being dealt lethal damage, or being dealt damage by a source with deathtouch. If you would leave the battlefield, sacrifice this enchantment instead.
18:52:20 <b_jonas> I don't think it could work in any form, sorry.
18:52:36 <b_jonas> In un-land, maybe. Not in black bordered land.
18:53:11 <tswett> All right, one more try.
18:54:11 <b_jonas> You can't have a player that's also a permanent.
18:54:17 <b_jonas> It would tear a hole on the rules.
18:54:53 <b_jonas> I think you can't even have a player that changes zones.
18:55:38 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
18:55:40 <tswett> You. Creature. 2/2. Damage that would be dealt to you is dealt to You instead. Whenever You is dealt damage, you lose that much life. You isn't destroyed as a result of having toughness 0 or less, being dealt lethal damage, or being dealt damage by a source with deathtouch.
18:56:22 <b_jonas> tswett: that can work, though I don't see why it doesn't say "You is indestructible." instead of the last ability
18:56:37 <tswett> It can still be destroyed by anything else.
18:56:49 <b_jonas> no wait, it would say "You has indestructibility." currently
18:57:23 <b_jonas> funnily, "indestructibility" is an ability now, but "unblockable" still isn't
18:57:35 <tswett> Next you'll tell me they've changed "[This creature] can fly" to "Flying".
18:58:04 <b_jonas> it would say "You has indestructible."
18:58:06 <b_jonas> because that's how it's called
18:58:19 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
18:59:05 <b_jonas> funnily, "unblockable" isn't an ability and it isn't even a word used in rules text anymore. sad.
18:59:49 -!- tswett has set topic: You has indestructible. | The Corruptic Channello | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
19:00:35 <b_jonas> they just errataed all the old cards to "can't be blocked".
19:01:40 <b_jonas> Aether Figment, Escape Artist, Metathran Soldier, Veil of Secrecy, Protective Bubble, they all say that now
19:02:27 <b_jonas> (Soltari Foot Soldier doesn't say that, but it never really said unblockable anyway.)
19:02:30 <tswett> Surely "can't be blocked" is an ability, though.
19:02:39 <tswett> Doesn't the rules text of a permanent consist entirely of abilities?
19:03:34 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, but Veil of Secrecy doesn't give an ability to a creature, so if you cast Veil of Secrecy on a bear, then it still gets the bonus of that crazy time spiral card, and is still unblockable if it's Humble.
19:04:29 <b_jonas> Whereas Indestructibility now gives an actual ability, so if you enchant a bear with Indestructilbility, it won't get the bonus of the Petroglyphs, and can be destroyed if it's Humble
19:04:57 <b_jonas> Metathran Solder does have an ability, namely “~ can't be blocked.”
19:05:26 <b_jonas> so if Metathran Soldier is Humble, it can be blocked
19:06:10 <b_jonas> and Cephalid Pathmage doesn't give an ability either (and never did).
19:06:36 <b_jonas> Protective Bubble does give an ability, but it's shroud only.
19:09:45 <b_jonas> Shroud is one that didn't use to be an ability: back before, I dunno, tenth edition or M2010 or something, Diplomatic Immunity didn't use to give an ability to the creature it's enchanted, but now it does.
19:14:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45024&oldid=45010 * Bexandre * (+5)
19:18:40 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:18:42 -!- ^v has joined.
19:36:10 -!- mroman has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
20:24:13 <fizzie> Link partner advertised link modes: 10baseT/Half
20:24:22 <fizzie> Ten megabits and half-duplex.
20:27:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: um, what distance is it, and is it something where you'd need high bandwidth, or something where you don't need high bandwidth anyway?
20:27:47 <b_jonas> I mean, next room, two hundred meters, city ten kilometers away, satellite a light second away?
20:30:17 <tswett> Woo, only one thing I really got wrong that time. Legend is not a creature type.
20:30:32 <tswett> I figured "Legend" was a creature type and, in addition, "Legendary" was a supertype.
20:30:43 <tswett> The latter used to be the case but now isn't.
20:30:54 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, Legend isn't a creature type anymore. nor is Hero, sadly
20:31:03 <b_jonas> nor is Lord, but that's a good thing
20:31:41 <tswett> Wall could be a land type. It isn't, but it could be.
20:31:49 <tswett> Or maybe I should say "could have been".
20:32:00 <tswett> I don't think you can have a land type and a creature type with the same name.
20:32:39 <b_jonas> yes, you can't really, because then it would be hard to tell what it refers to
20:33:18 <b_jonas> as for walls, my favourite is Iron Wall
20:33:26 <tswett> Just spell it differently. "Walll".
20:35:10 -!- variable has joined.
20:35:37 <b_jonas> Steel Wall is nice in the sense that they don't print walls that powerful these days
20:35:55 <b_jonas> now the standard is Wall of Wood, 0/3 defender for {G}
20:36:09 <b_jonas> whereas there are lots of old walls that are underpowered and obsolated by later creatures
20:36:59 <b_jonas> in particular, Mistform Wall is a 1/4 wall for {2U} that you can activate to turn to non-wall, but these days you just get a 1/4 for {2U} any time without fuss,
20:38:55 <b_jonas> Mirror Wall is a 3/4 wall for {3U} that you can activate to turn to a non-wall, and while you don't get a 3/4 for {3U} without a drawback even today, it's still sort of underpowered as a wall that can attack.
20:39:13 <b_jonas> Most of the old walls are underpowered, and they print too few walls these days.
20:39:37 <b_jonas> Order of the Stars is another nice powerful defender
20:39:42 <fizzie> b_jonas: About one metre.
20:41:02 <fizzie> I'm trying (and failing) to scrub any personal things out of these old boxes (Sun SparcStation 5, SGI Indy) as a prequel to giving them away, but it's being difficult.
20:41:08 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:41:28 <b_jonas> ok, not quite Wall of Wood. I think they also print Wall of Vines, which is 0/3 reach wall for {G}
20:42:44 <b_jonas> other nice old walls are Wall of Hope and Wall of Glare, but they're not very powerful, they're more combo pieces than powerful alone but even in combos they aren't too powerful, and luckily they do print more creatures (even non-defender) with Wall of Glare's ability nowadays than they used to
20:42:57 <fizzie> I don't have a monitor compatible with the Sparc any more (it's got the 13w3 connector -- same as the Indy's monitor, but it's of course not compatible -- I have a 13w3-to-4xBNC adapter cable, but I don't have the old CRT with the BNC R/G/B/sync inputs that used to work).
20:45:08 <fizzie> It can also do console on the serial port, but I found only a DB9-female/DB25-female serial cable -- the other end fits to a serial port in a regular computer, but the serial ports on the Sparc are DB25 female too. I vaguely recall having a gender changer adapter for this setup, but can't find it (probably it's in Finland, if not lost altogether), and I don't want to start buying stuff I ...
20:45:14 <fizzie> ... wouldn't use more than once. Plus I don't know whether it needs a straight-through adapter, or one that does the straight-to-null-modem-cable conversion too. I think the former, but I'd probably get it wrong.
20:48:17 <fizzie> For the Indy I've got a monitor, but I have no idea what sort of username/password it's expecting, and I don't have the IRIX installation media that's part of the normal password recovery. I think it should theoretically boot from network, but it's got a graphics card that Linux doesn't support. And the same sort of serial port as the Sparc.
20:49:53 <fizzie> Oh, and the disks are all SCSI, and these are the only SCSI hosts I've got.
20:51:17 -!- bb010g has joined.
20:53:37 <fizzie> Maybe I could find a copy of the Irix CDs somewhere, and then do the bootp-tftp dance to get at least that one running.
20:55:04 <b_jonas> a graphics card that Linux doesn't support? do you mean it wouldn't be able to have accelerated graphics, or that it wouldn't be able to show anything on the display even if you do some dances compiling a custom kernel and programs?
20:55:19 <b_jonas> use it through network and serial console then
20:55:36 <b_jonas> oh, you don't have a monitor anyway?
20:55:42 <fizzie> I have a monitor for the Indy.
20:55:56 <fizzie> It's just not compatible with the Sparc.
20:56:14 <fizzie> I explained my serial port woes a while ago.
20:56:46 <fizzie> No, just female on both my only serial cable and the machine.
20:56:48 <b_jonas> I think you can give away them without, those serial port cables aren't difficult to get
20:57:11 <b_jonas> isn't female the normal gender for that? um
20:57:31 <b_jonas> serial ports should be male on the machine
20:57:42 <fizzie> Yes, except they're female on both the Sparc and Indy.
20:57:45 <fizzie> They like to be different.
20:57:48 <b_jonas> yes, that would be more difficult to solve
20:58:07 <fizzie> I did have an adapter, because I've used the serial console. I just don't want to get a new one.
20:58:48 <fizzie> Also I can't give them away without getting them working, because I want to see what I've saved there.
20:58:51 <b_jonas> does it have some sort of standard socket on the motherboard that is connected to a female port, and where you could replace that cable inside the chasis, perhaps?
20:59:15 <b_jonas> also, does it at least take a keyboard on a port you have a keyboard for?
20:59:26 <fizzie> Yes, I've got authentic SGI and Sun keyboards for both.
20:59:49 <fizzie> I think the Indy is PS/2, anyway.
20:59:50 <b_jonas> what ports do those use, out of curiosity?
21:00:06 <fizzie> The Sun one is... I don't know what it's called, it's just "that Sun keyboard/mouse port".
21:00:17 <fizzie> You plug the mouse to the keyboard, and the keyboard to the machine.
21:01:07 <fizzie> I'm going to try doing the IRIX netboot for password recovery first, that *should* work if I find an IRIX disc.
21:01:15 <fizzie> At least http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-10878_11-1032878.html seems very very helpful.
21:01:20 <fizzie> That's the wrong link.
21:01:33 <fizzie> http://software.majix.org/irix/install-network.shtml was what I was aiming at.
21:01:35 <b_jonas> anyway, if you give them away to collectors, they might have the right tools to use them
21:01:45 <b_jonas> hardware from other partial machines
21:01:49 <fizzie> Yes, yes, but: 20:58 <fizzie> Also I can't give them away without getting them working, because I want to see what I've saved there.
21:02:10 <fizzie> One of them has my IRC logs, for example.
21:02:15 <b_jonas> can't you just read the hard disks in another computer?
21:02:24 <fizzie> I don't have anything that speaks SCSI except for these two. :p
21:02:37 <b_jonas> borrow a scsi card, or a machine that has a scsi card
21:02:50 <b_jonas> ask a friend with access to such a machine to copy it for you
21:03:05 <fizzie> I don't know anyone, at least in this country. Though maybe I could ask around.
21:03:20 <b_jonas> ask around, they might have a server like that
21:03:29 <b_jonas> can those hard disks be hotplugged?
21:05:29 <fizzie> I don't think the internal ones can. The external ones, sure.
21:05:44 <fizzie> SCSI is a mess of standards, anyway. I'll see if I can get this done without resorting to any extra equipment.
21:06:35 <fizzie> I seem to recall that my boss's boss's monitor (we were moving desks, happened to notice) at work has BNC inputs, I could maybe plug the Sparc into that.
21:06:42 <b_jonas> so you can't easily put a linux on neither of the machines?
21:07:26 <b_jonas> oh, BNC inputs is another of those things that you can find at a friend, though carrying the machine might be more difficult than just carrying a hard disk
21:08:15 <fizzie> b_jonas: The Sparc has OpenBSD on it, but it's hard to netboot it "blindly" without having either a real console or a serial one.
21:10:07 <fizzie> Oh, actually the Indy's serial ports are some sort of weird round DIN connectors.
21:10:28 <b_jonas> you can probably find a converter for that
21:10:56 <b_jonas> or get an engineer to make some temporary wires.
21:11:09 <b_jonas> or even a permanent converter
21:12:45 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/jackolantern.jpg
21:13:30 <fizzie> For the record (got to Indy's boot monitor), it's got the GR3-XZ graphics.
21:14:01 <fizzie> "There's no support for the XZ board since there's no documentation for it available", writes someone on the linux-mips mailing list.
21:14:11 <\oren\> the bag behind them is full of candy
21:18:34 <fizzie> "ec0: machine has bad ethernet address: 06:08:7f:f1:08:08"
21:18:38 <fizzie> What's so bad about that?
21:30:23 -!- atehwa has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:34:57 -!- JesseH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:35:50 <\oren\> I'mma give each kid like two full size choclate bars and a lollipo[p
21:36:04 <\oren\> because fuck you, parents
21:36:42 <\oren\> especially parents who try to control sugar intake. fuck them hard
21:36:49 <newsham> you know they sell paper straws that are full of granulated sugar
21:37:03 <newsham> but we're good at keepign your plan from working
21:37:12 <newsham> we collect the candy, dole it out slowly and mostly just eat it ourselves
21:37:16 <newsham> because parents arent on a sugar diet
21:37:49 <newsham> sugar straws http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_r4c80ZXXzGo/TSs94JdFsoI/AAAAAAAAB-Q/Oad9CA5KqOo/s1600/Sugar_Diva_Pink_Dots_Stripe_Paper_Straws.png
21:37:52 <\oren\> well I made sure to pick ones like Caramilk that in my esperience make old people get sick
21:38:07 <newsham> http://tj-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/09/Screen-Shot-2013-09-05-at-9.16.23-AM-550x370.png
21:42:58 <fizzie> Hrm. Linux doesn't know how to mount the IRIX 6.5 installation disc image, because it's too SGI. (For net-booting, the tftp server needs to have the files from it.)
21:43:33 <fizzie> Oh, it's supposedly just regular EFS.
21:43:58 <fizzie> Well, that was almost disappointingly easy (-t efs).
21:44:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
21:45:11 <\oren\> are you trying to install IRIX on a modern computer
21:45:41 <b_jonas> \oren\: he's trying to get an old IRIX machine and an old Sun machine to work,
21:45:48 <b_jonas> and read the data saved on their hard disks
21:46:44 -!- JesseH has joined.
21:51:04 <fizzie> This fiddling is so much fun, I hope I don't start to regret my decision to give these away.
22:01:59 <\oren\> fizzie: what kind of candy are you going to/have already give out?
22:10:38 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:12:30 <fizzie> I don't think I'm doing any of that. Do they even do that here?
22:12:56 <fizzie> (Also, I don't get it: this installation media only has fx, no sash.)
22:23:33 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:23:43 <\oren\> what god-forsaken country doesn't do Halloween?!?!
22:24:27 <fizzie> I haven't seen that much Halloween going on here in the UK.
22:24:33 <fizzie> We did have lots of candy at work, though.
22:24:40 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think we talked about this a few hours ago. “Back when I was young, children used to put on costumes at the end of February. Now they're instead doing it on Halloween.”
22:25:23 <fizzie> Oh, oh *course*. The CD doesn't have sash in the *filesystem*, it's got it somehow as a separate partition: http://sprunge.us/iAci
22:25:36 <b_jonas> As for candy, we eat them on --12-06, when Santa Claus fills shoes of good boys with them. It's shoes because boys no longer wear stockings.
22:25:53 <fizzie> parted can read SGI disk labels, but of course loop-mounting doesn't do partitions.
22:26:02 <b_jonas> (But of course you can put on costumes or eat candy any other day too.)
22:26:38 <b_jonas> No wait, we eat them on --12-07, because Santa Claus brings them on the night after --12-06
22:26:39 <fizzie> I remember being annoyed by this in a more reasonable context, something about having a full-hard-disk image and not being able to conveniently see/mount the individual partitions.
22:26:55 <fizzie> I forget about any workarounds. I guess I could just dd those things out.
22:27:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think these days you can loop mount partitions
22:27:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: as in, set an offset, and lately size too, to the loop device
22:27:32 <b_jonas> possibly explicitly with losetup or its bsd equivalent command
22:27:45 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't think the partition has any sort of file system, it's just the data.
22:27:48 <b_jonas> that's how you access partitions if the kernel doesn't understand your partition table
22:28:35 <fizzie> As far as I can tell. The CD has a SGI disklabel, with one xfs partition, and two "file" partitions.
22:28:41 <b_jonas> I mean, partitions can have a short boot loader at their start
22:28:51 <b_jonas> like a few ten kilobytes at most
22:29:05 <b_jonas> but then usually they load files from the file system (possibly specially prepared files, not just any file)
22:29:15 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't work like that here.
22:29:49 <b_jonas> old versions of Linux could work that way too, they could be loaded right from a floppy disk without a boot loader,
22:29:53 <b_jonas> but then you don't get boot parameters
22:30:15 <b_jonas> but that was removed a year ago or so, because now boot loaders are much better, nobody uses floppy disks, and people want real boot parameter strings
22:30:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binary combinatory logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45025&oldid=13884 * 121.223.2.235 * (-8) Site was moved to github
22:30:38 <b_jonas> and kernels often don't even fit in a floppy disk
22:30:39 <fizzie> Yes, but this isn't even at the start of the disc. I think the idea is that the PROM is clever enough to understand the SGI disklabel partition table format, but not the actual filesystem, so you put the kernel as a "partition" and tell it to load that.
22:30:54 <fizzie> It's got both sashARCS and sash64 to support MIPS32 and MIPS64 with the same disc.
22:30:57 <b_jonas> floppy disks usually aren't partitioned, but that's mostly because they're small
22:31:01 <b_jonas> the hard disk is bigger, right?
22:31:06 <fizzie> Well, it's a CD image.
22:31:17 <fizzie> Though it could well be the same sort of setup for the hard disk.
22:32:43 <fizzie> There's a 18.7 MB partition with xfs listed as the file system type, the 32- and 64-bit sash executables (281 kB, 342 kB) and a big 431MB partition with no file system type or name.
22:32:58 <fizzie> Which seems to be the thing I get mounted when I loop-mount that with -t efs.
22:33:37 <fizzie> Welp, I'll try extracting just the sashARCS binary. I'm not that interested in actually installing IRIX, just booting into sash should be enough to let me mount the hard disk and reset the password.
22:33:37 <b_jonas> so could you at least copy the contents of the hard disk to some other disk you can read elsewhere?
22:33:54 <b_jonas> oh, you want to reset the password too
22:34:06 <fizzie> Well, I mean, not necessarily, but that seems almost easiest.
22:36:36 <fizzie> I can't understand why I can never remember which one of dd's skip/seek does what.
22:37:04 <b_jonas> skip is input, seek is output? or not.
22:37:12 <b_jonas> before the toaster stabs you
22:37:52 <fizzie> But I always have to read the man page.
22:37:55 <fizzie> sashARCS: MIPSEB MIPS-II ECOFF executable (impure) not stripped - version 7.30
22:38:02 <fizzie> That's very promising, I think I hit the right offset.
22:38:36 <fizzie> Will be interesting to see if my regular DHCP server is good enough in faking BOOTP for it, though.
22:38:38 <b_jonas> output is seek, because output seeking can't work on an unseekable file handle, whereas input skipping can just read if the input is unseekable
22:38:51 <fizzie> Hey, that's a nice mnemonic.
22:40:36 <b_jonas> now the question is, are skip and seek relative to SEEK_SET or SEEK_CUR if dd operates on file descriptors that are already sought?
22:41:13 <b_jonas> and my answer is: just use perl for that kind of stuff. and don't forget to binmode on non-unix.
22:41:30 -!- ^v has joined.
22:41:41 <b_jonas> though dd is useful because of the built-in reaction to SIGUSR1
22:48:30 <fizzie> It says: "ec0: bad ethernet address 6:8:7f:f1:8:8" + "unable to load bootp()..." and so on.
22:49:51 <fizzie> There seems to be an answer about this in the NetBSD sgimips port's FAQ.
22:50:14 <fizzie> It involves manually writing to the PROM.
22:50:35 <fizzie> It's just a bit strange, because this thing used to work, with no "bad ethernet address" errors.
22:52:02 <fizzie> Well, at least the dump command they suggest matches with the supposedly bad ethernet address.
22:53:39 <fizzie> "It's a very good idea to reuse the address the machine was shipped with. Check the back of the machine if you cannot remember it."
22:53:55 <fizzie> There's nothing at the back of the machine.
22:57:01 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:57:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
23:03:02 <fizzie> Well, it did remember the address I set, which is maybe a good sign, although I fear problems might this sound like hardware ones.
23:04:45 <fizzie> Says the same "bad ethernet address" for the new value I've set. I'd really like to know what makes an address bad.
23:06:06 -!- aretecode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:08:30 <b_jonas> argh. I'll probably need to install newer versions of stuff
23:10:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45026&oldid=45023 * SuperJedi224 * (+130) /* Instructions */
23:23:32 -!- mauris has joined.
23:27:24 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:33:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:43:50 <nitrix> When witches go riding, and black cats are seen, the moon laughs and whispers, ’tis near Halloween. Hope you're enjoying the festivities and having a scary good time! MUAHahahAHah! >:)
23:51:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:52:03 <\oren\> yup! but the most important part to me is the look on some well meaning woman's face when I give her son two chocolate bars and a handful of lollipops!
23:54:02 <\oren\> ha, you want your kids to be healthy? healthy, THIS
23:55:50 <\oren\> to compound the horror, the lollipops are the sour kind and the chocolate bars are cramilk and coffee crisp