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00:00:59 <fizzie> On the other hand, 16777216 feels very special. Maybe just because it's more things.
00:01:33 <int-e> it's the number of colors many devices are marketed to support
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00:02:48 <int-e> I'd guess it's 2^30 but I don't really recognize it.
00:02:49 <FreeFull> If you take out the middle six digits, you get 1024
00:03:26 <int-e> (I see it's about 10^9 and starts with approximately 1072, so that's plausible.)
00:05:13 -!- mihow has joined.
00:05:45 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
00:06:56 <fizzie> int-e: When it's not called just "millions of colors".
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00:18:17 <oerjan> ais523: long time no see
00:19:04 <ais523> did anything come up that I need to deal with?
00:22:47 <oerjan> well there was a weird spammer who didn't really spam a link, so i wanted to ask you how long to ban them
00:23:03 <oerjan> (i think i chose a week just to be weird)
00:23:12 <oerjan> also, you're Agora Speaker hth
00:24:49 <oerjan> i don't recall anything else you were too needed for
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00:43:30 <boily> pikhelloq, hppavellon[1].
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00:53:52 <Taneb> Right... if I have 4 vectors, I can construct a vector space of degree at most four with some subset of them as the basis
00:54:37 <Taneb> If in 4 dimensional space, I put a vertex at (1, 0, 0, 0), (0, 1, 0, 0), etc...
00:54:47 <Taneb> Can I form a tetrahedron from those vertices?
00:55:15 <Taneb> Those vertices are also linearly dependent
00:56:15 <Taneb> Actually, my question is, "how do I tell if two lines are coplanar in an arbitrarily high-dimensional euclidean space?"
00:57:05 <oerjan> x+y+z+w = 1 in 4-dimensional space is a representation of 3d projective space
00:58:32 <oerjan> hm i guess that doesn't give an isometry
00:58:46 <Taneb> I just need to know if the volume is zero or not
01:01:51 <oerjan> if the lines are given by 4 points, then you take the vectors from one of them to the other and check if they span a 3d space
01:02:43 <oerjan> you could use gram-schmidt for this.
01:05:27 <Taneb> I thought Gram-Schmidt took a set of vectors already known to be linearly independent
01:06:32 <oerjan> (if you get 0 vector at any step, that vector was redundant with the previous)
01:07:02 <Taneb> Handly, here's a Gram-Schmidt I prepared earlier: http://lpaste.net/131499
01:07:38 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's one in the morning, cut me some slack
01:08:30 <oerjan> right, it's the simplex definition
01:09:09 <oerjan> although the non-finite points do, naturally
01:09:17 <Phantom_Hoover> obviously you can put a metric on it but the resulting geometry will be nonsense
01:09:26 <oerjan> but (0,0,0,1) becomes an infinite one
01:10:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> x+y+z+w = 1 in 4-dimensional space is a representation of 3d projective space
01:10:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: homogeneous coordinates, no?
01:11:20 <oerjan> w = 0 are infinite points
01:11:26 <ais523> oerjan: ooh, I came up with a new esolang too while I was gone
01:11:33 <ais523> I haven't documented it yet but I have an interp
01:11:43 <ais523> it should be easy enough to document, seeing as it's a tarpit
01:11:46 <oerjan> also i was wrong about (0,0,0,1), it's the only one which is _finite_
01:12:43 <ais523> here: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/threestar.c
01:13:36 <Taneb> Those are some deeply nested pointers
01:13:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, x=y=z=0 is not into the right set
01:15:04 <ais523> I was originally using a void**** but it doesn't work, you do genuinely need the void***** if you're writing the program like that
01:16:04 <oerjan> it's x+y+z+w=0 that's the infinite subwhatever
01:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> that's still not homeomorphic to projective space for the same reasons
01:17:15 <Phantom_Hoover> you're going to have to take a quotient at some point, i'll bet
01:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway taneb was just trying to find if two lines were coplanar!
01:19:54 <ais523> aren't two lines coplanar if and only if a) they intersect, or b) they're parallel?
01:20:22 <Phantom_Hoover> so while i'm sure there's a nice general method it's easy to just check each case individually
01:20:46 <Taneb> ais523, I'm trying to find the intersection, or more precisely, when I can find the intersections
01:21:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, that's even easier, you're just solving simultaneous equations
01:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> shit i need to sleep stop getting me into geometry arguments you bastards
01:22:25 <Taneb> Hey, I was just rambling about my overcomplicated beginning of a solution to a problem which I never actually stated
01:24:08 <oerjan> ais523: not in 4d space
01:24:36 * oerjan is cursed to be wrong today
01:25:04 <olsner> cursed just today? or maybe for the rest of your life...
01:25:19 <ais523> oerjan: I think it's true regardless of dimension count, but I'm not 100% certain, 4D visualisation is weird
01:26:07 <oerjan> ais523: no i realized that there's always a containing 3d space so 4d doesn't give anything extra
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01:33:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Lemon enthusiast]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45296&oldid=45293 * Lemon enthusiast * (-258)
01:41:24 * boily reads a scroll of remove curse at oerjan
01:42:24 <ais523> "You feel like someone is helping you"?
01:44:25 <boily> "You feel as if something is helping you".
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01:50:07 <hppavilion[1]> Well. One of my friends had his girlfriend break up with him and now he's depressed and contemplating suicide.
01:51:18 <Taneb> I would advise strongly that he doesn't.
01:51:40 <hppavilion[1]> I spent 30 minutes trying to comfort him and got nowhere.
01:52:04 <hppavilion[1]> I give up. He's stressing me out. I'm going to go back to programming to distract myself now.
01:52:34 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], suggest he talk to a therapist/call a hotline?
01:53:45 <hppavilion[1]> He agreed that he needs a shrink. He looked like he was feeling better for a bit, then he dropped back down
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01:57:38 <Sgeo> Is there any particular name for the operation 2^floor(log_2 x)?
01:58:12 <ais523> oh, hmm, there might be
01:58:52 <ais523> I have an incomplete list of names for that sort of thing here, just checking it now
01:59:59 <ais523> that specific one isn't there, but it's "isolate highest set bit" by analogy with "isolate lowest set bit"
02:03:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45297&oldid=45280 * Hppavilion1 * (+2081) /* Additional Operations */ Stack on the back, PAD and REVPAD
02:04:19 <izabera> "round down to the nearest power of 2"?
02:05:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deque]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45298&oldid=45297 * Hppavilion1 * (+8) /* Operations */ Formatting
02:07:08 <izabera> is a deque basically a linked list?
02:07:42 <Taneb> A doubly-linked list is one way to implement a deque
02:10:02 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's a stack/queue hybrid, if that's what you're asking (though I have a feeling you already knew)
02:10:43 <ais523> izabera: doubly-linked lists are a common way to implement a deque, but not the only one
02:11:21 <ais523> e.g. you can also use a ring buffer that is reconstructed larger when it becomes full, or two stacks where, if a stack is empty and you try to pop it, you reverse the other stack onto the empty stack
02:12:01 <ais523> (the two stacks method is one that I find very useful for implementing queues in esolangs that only have stacks, and then to BCT, in order to prove turing-completeness; it actually gives you a full deque but I normally only care about the queue subset of the behaviour)
02:12:07 <FireFly> In some sense stack/queue/deque are abstract whereas a linked-list is concrete
02:12:36 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], thanks! It's the language I'm most proud of
02:13:40 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Your middle-last name looks like "Von Doom" with proper kerning
02:13:46 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], yes
02:13:46 <Sgeo> izabera, but that's so... unmathylike
02:13:53 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], that is true
02:14:16 <Taneb> (and it's just my last name, the "van" is part of the surname. For reference, my middle name is George)
02:14:29 <\oren\> the Deque has push, pop, shift and unshift. what if you had push pop and shift only?
02:15:01 <ais523> izabera: BCT = bitwise cyclic tag
02:15:13 <ais523> it's a specific concrete instance of cyclic tag, which is a mathematical language-class
02:15:30 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I believe they are push, pop, eject, and inject
02:15:37 <ais523> and cyclic tag is, in my experience, the easiest TC language to implement in arbitrary esolangs
02:16:07 <hppavilion[1]> Not shift and unshift (which I assume are ROLLs, which can be implemented using Push, Pop, Eject, and Inject and a scalar accumulator (though you clobber the accumulator))
02:16:17 <ais523> hmm, is there a cyclic tag / bct compiler into BF yet? there should be, it's easy
02:16:22 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: some languages call them different things, I'm using the names from Perl
02:16:30 <\oren\> http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/shift.html
02:16:53 <ais523> \oren\: you can do three out of the four operations with a singly linked list
02:17:09 <hppavilion[1]> I need to come up with a better name for DequeCLI...
02:17:43 <ais523> you have to discard either shift or pop but you can implement the three others with just single-linking pointers and separate pointers to /both/ ends
02:18:01 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], one of my friends once wrote a program that extracted data from .drs files (which are used in some video game... age of empires, maybe?)
02:18:11 <Taneb> He narrowly avoided calling it drsextractor
02:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> I like DequeCLI (or whatever its final name is) because I can define operations like DUP
02:19:13 <ais523> would be more amazing if he'd noticed and decided to use the name nayway
02:19:35 <Taneb> ais523, sadly he is not the kind of person who would do that
02:19:55 <Sgeo> May I do math out loud here? 2048 = 2^11, 2^(11-23) = 2^-12;
02:19:55 <hppavilion[1]> DUP is SAVE POP PUSH PUSH RETRIEVE. SAVE and RETREIVE are optional, if you don't mind clobbering the accumulator
02:20:31 <Taneb> Sgeo, that seems correct so far
02:21:42 <Sgeo> So if a thing needs to be going half that distance in a frame, minimum meters per frame = 2^-13. Times 45 frames per second ~= 0.0055 mps
02:21:56 <Sgeo> Lower at smaller fps
02:22:35 <Sgeo> Might be easier to keep looking at my mpf calculation and have my measurement tool print measured minimum mpf
02:23:14 <Sgeo> Actually, that number looks really really wrong based on prior measurements, but those are indirect
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02:27:28 <Sgeo> Measured attempted minimum velocity: -0.005553
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02:32:12 <Sgeo> My measured meters per frame is slightly higher than expected, wonder if I'm not quite measuring right
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02:46:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45299&oldid=44894 * SuperJedi224 * (+166)
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03:05:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45300&oldid=45299 * SuperJedi224 * (-46) /* Instructions */
03:07:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45301&oldid=45300 * SuperJedi224 * (-68)
03:08:05 <Sgeo> SHould I be happy that my math based on my theories sort of match up with what I measured, or upset that it's not more exact?
03:08:13 <Sgeo> I don't know what sort of error these measurements have
03:11:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45302&oldid=45238 * SuperJedi224 * (+130)
03:13:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45303&oldid=45301 * SuperJedi224 * (+65)
03:14:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45304&oldid=45303 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
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03:34:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merucik]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45305 * Conor O'Brien * (+2128) Created page with "**Merucik** is a Brainf*** derivative that adds some minor functionality to aid the programmer in coding. Merucik programs operator on a right-open, theoretically-unbound tape..."
03:35:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merucik]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45306&oldid=45305 * Conor O'Brien * (+2)
03:37:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45307&oldid=45149 * Ais523 * (+468) /* Page removal request */ for the record
03:37:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merucik]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45308&oldid=45306 * Conor O'Brien * (+31)
03:37:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45309&oldid=44906 * Conor O'Brien * (+25) /* Languages I have made */
03:37:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45310&oldid=44771 * Ais523 * (+27) and a new one (let's edit a link in that I can follow to create the article, the old-fashioned way)
03:42:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merucik]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45311&oldid=45308 * Conor O'Brien * (+281) /* Instructions */
03:45:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck extensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45312&oldid=43357 * Conor O'Brien * (+65)
03:49:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merucik]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45313&oldid=45311 * Conor O'Brien * (+95)
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03:58:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45314 * Ais523 * (+4998) new language!
03:58:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45315&oldid=45158 * Ais523 * (+28) /* T */ +[[Three Star Programmer]]
03:59:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OISC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45316&oldid=34930 * Ais523 * (+28) /* See also */ +[[Three Star Programmer]] (maybe at this point this should be a category, instead of / in addition to a list?)
04:01:56 <ais523> hmm, I hope Three Star Programmer is TC; it feels like it is but it's a total pain to accomplish anything in
04:02:14 <ais523> if it is, it'd be the first OISC which has one-operand instructions and doesn't rely on memory mapping
04:03:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OISC]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45317&oldid=45316 * Ais523 * (+0) /* See also */ this list is apparently alphabetical, not asciibetical
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04:08:18 <hppavilion[1]> (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IVBYW2CSDgvspkCl0nYTy-FQPUwozYdkX2H-cZGwALo/edit?usp=sharing)
04:10:08 <ais523> zzo38: it's a pain to program in though
04:10:14 <ais523> like, I haven't managed to write /any/ nontrivial programs
04:10:32 <ais523> and only have the vaguest idea of what one would look like
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04:14:37 <Sgeo> IRL, is 4km vertically a lot or not so much?
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04:15:23 <Sgeo> On the surface of Earth, would 4km above the surface be outer space ish?
04:16:11 <Sgeo> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line very much no
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04:17:08 <Sgeo> According to the Wikipedia link, yes
04:23:57 <FireFly> ais523: an obfuscated 3SP interpreter sounds like it'd make a reasonable IOCCC submission
04:24:21 <FireFly> Although only if it turns out to actually be usable for programming, I suppose
04:24:21 <ais523> FireFly: so long as you had an actual program to run it on
04:24:30 <ais523> fwiw, I'm using the file extension .3*
04:24:35 <ais523> to drive Windows programmers mad
04:24:48 <ais523> (it's only mildly inconvenient on Linux, mostly having to add extra quotes, and making me do a double take when I see ls output)
04:24:53 <ais523> it even tab completes correctly!
04:26:23 <shachaf> Most likely it'll be fine even without escaping
04:27:49 <zzo38> I thought the program does not require any specific extension? (Even though it does say to use .3* at the top)
04:28:01 <FireFly> Out of interest, why the second and fourth cells for the output extension?
04:29:39 <zzo38> ais523: Don't you have a color computer?
04:29:57 <ais523> zzo38: it doesn't require a specific extension
04:30:03 <ais523> also what do you mean by a color computer?
04:30:17 <shachaf> is it related to colorforth?
04:30:19 <zzo38> Color terminal, I suppose
04:30:31 <ais523> FireFly: I had a feeling that it might be possible to use only the even-numbered cells
04:30:37 <ais523> quintopia: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Three_Star_Programmer
04:30:41 <zzo38> Then you can use colors with ls
04:30:44 <ais523> I just put it on the wiki today (designed it a few days ago when I was ill)
04:30:49 <ais523> zzo38: oh yes, color terminal, and I use colors with ls
04:30:55 <ais523> but it's still confusing seeing asterisks in ls' output
04:31:14 <ais523> even if I put them there myself
04:31:19 <FireFly> I think I'd do even more of a double-take seeing (escaped) asterisks when tab-completing
04:31:29 <FireFly> and feel a bit uneasy pressing enter
04:31:59 <oerjan> Sgeo: 4km is a bit less than half the height of mount everest hth
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04:42:57 <Sgeo> Well, I seem to be able to observe "quantum" effects in SL somewhat comfortably at 4km
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05:40:33 <Sgeo> WHEE https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/dc140b32c082ae38fd15
05:44:52 <\oren\> ais523: You should make one where the array extends downward using my stupid x86 stack trick.
05:45:14 <ais523> \oren\: you could just change increments to decrements, the language spec doesn't require any particular memory layout
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05:47:21 <Sgeo> My next experiment, the one that I and a coworker am eagerly anticipating: What happens when minimum velocity imposed by the nature of floating-point numbers is near the maximum velocity arbitrarily imposed by the Lindens?
05:50:15 <zzo38> Are you going to use METAFONT to make up a font?
05:50:39 <Sgeo> The fun part: In order to get to a point where this occurs, we will build a MASSIVE ROCKET
05:53:02 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Though I might make a METAFONT or something version so people can use it in reality
05:53:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to have such constructs as the 1.5 story g and the 3-humped B
05:54:17 <zzo38> METAFONT is good for printer fonts. (It could be used for screen fonts too, although screen fonts are best made with a tile editor, in my opinion.)
05:54:33 <zzo38> How does WalText II work anyways?
05:59:13 <FireFly> What does 'tile editor' entail?
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06:03:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45318&oldid=41115 * Nikoraito * (+965) /* Extensions */ new section
06:04:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45319&oldid=45318 * Nikoraito * (+89) /* Extensions */
06:06:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45320&oldid=45319 * Nikoraito * (+52) /* Extensions */
06:10:22 <zzo38> You can select sets of tiles and make each pixel of each tile on/off; some more advanced ones may have additional operations too.
06:12:04 <zzo38> (Tiles may also be created with a text editor and then compiled; some programs will do it this way.)
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06:27:59 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: WalText II is kind of like METAFONT I've been told
06:28:26 <\oren\> I agree fonts for computers are best designed with pixels, so there's no blurriness
06:28:43 <hppavilion[1]> Though in later versions, it's going to have a dynamic random number feature (allowing you to emulate human error in the font, making it look more realistic, less uncanny valley)
06:45:08 <oerjan> i do not think about fonts hth
06:47:07 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Wait, was it you or \oren\ that's making the font? My recognition of names (and faces, though that doeesn't really come into play) is not very good
06:53:48 <zzo38> If WalText II is like METAFONT then depending on other stuff how it works, may be possible to compile WalText II fonts into TFM/PK formats; such file formats are simple enough to do.
07:02:25 <zzo38> That isn't a problem.
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07:47:34 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should go write a language specification in ultra-limited time
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07:48:42 <zzo38> How much time limit?
07:48:52 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: http://esolangs.org/wiki/2014 was pretty time-limited
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08:20:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45321&oldid=45314 * Ais523 * (+85) /* External resources */ link to where the name comes from
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10:05:55 <b_jonas> I haven't seen you for weeks
10:06:05 <ais523> still am to some extent
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12:02:37 * boily is confused by Han Unification
12:13:18 * FireFly wonders what type boily is, and what type Han Unification is, and whether it has any other effects apart from causing confusion
12:16:41 <boily> Firellofly. I think I'm Canadian.
12:16:53 <boily> (is mayonnaise an instrument?)
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12:24:03 <FireFly> Is Han Unification supereffective against Canadian?
12:28:19 <boily> further research needs to be made for a conclusive conclusion.
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12:58:38 * int-e wonders whether Han Unification is in any way similar to AC Unification...
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14:35:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45322&oldid=45290 * Lemon enthusiast * (+624)
14:38:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45323&oldid=45322 * Lemon enthusiast * (+172)
14:38:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45324&oldid=45323 * Lemon enthusiast * (+2)
14:39:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45325&oldid=45324 * Lemon enthusiast * (-61)
14:41:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45326&oldid=45292 * Lemon enthusiast * (+0) /* Operators (Ordered by precedence): */
15:01:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45327&oldid=45326 * Lemon enthusiast * (+31) /* Execution: */
15:01:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45328&oldid=45327 * Lemon enthusiast * (+431) /* Computational class */
15:03:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45329&oldid=45328 * Lemon enthusiast * (+15) /* Computational class */
15:08:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45330&oldid=45329 * Lemon enthusiast * (+0) /* Constants */
15:17:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45331&oldid=45330 * Lemon enthusiast * (+51) /* Operators (Ordered by precedence): */
15:18:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45332&oldid=45331 * Lemon enthusiast * (-1) /* Operators (Ordered by precedence): */
15:28:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Lemon enthusiast]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45333&oldid=45296 * Lemon enthusiast * (-98)
15:36:12 <izabera> i have an important question
15:36:22 <izabera> do you right align numbers and left align strings?
15:36:54 <izabera> or do you use the same alignment for both?
15:39:05 <fizzie> Justify everything, even if it's a single word.
15:41:46 <izabera> i have an array, some keys are "strings in double quotes", some are integers
15:43:08 <izabera> arr["very long string"] = x; arr[22] = x
15:43:10 <izabera> arr["short string" ] = x; arr[ 2] = x
15:45:08 <APic> It is okay to me no Matter if Strings/Numbers are aligned to the Left or to the Right, or even unaligned, as long as You keep Your Style consistently.
15:45:40 <b_jonas> if I run 7z a -mx=0 so that it adds files to a 7zip archive without compressing them, and the progress message says "Compressing", then is the progress message misleading, or have I given the parameters wrong?
15:47:59 <APic> b_jonas: Just test with a String of 10k zeroes and look at the Size, then You know whether it compresses B)
15:49:39 <b_jonas> yep, doesn't compress. and still says "Compressing"
15:50:02 <b_jonas> the compression part of 7z is nice, but the command-line UI needs severe reworking.
15:50:09 <b_jonas> This isn't the only problem I have with the UI.
15:52:45 <fizzie> izabera: In a case like that, I normally wouldn't align, but if I did, I'd left-align both strings and numbers. But that's strictly personal preference.
15:53:38 <mroman> left align strings, right align numbers
15:54:23 <mroman> unless we're talking about tables
15:54:36 <mroman> then left align left-most column, right align all the other columns.
15:55:14 <fizzie> How about point-aligning numbers?
15:55:41 <mroman> floats should be right-aligned and point-aligned
15:56:10 <mroman> but if you use a fixed amount of decimal points then right-aligning them is the same thing?
15:56:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45334&oldid=45332 * 179.185.170.155 * (-140) /* Constants */
15:56:32 <fizzie> Maybe. Are there any fonts with variable-width digits?
15:57:00 <APic> I would assume so
15:57:36 <APic> „Are there“-Questions sorta suck in our infinite Multiverses ;)
15:58:01 <APic> If something does not exist, somebody has already created it in this or other Galaxies
15:58:09 <APic> So nothing does _not_ exist
15:58:25 <mroman> but then I'd kill you for using those fonts.
15:58:46 <APic> I would not care because there exist an infinite Number of Clones of myself ;=P
15:59:00 <APic> But i still have a Fetish for fixed Fonts
15:59:09 <APic> So i am lucky even in _this_ current Multiverse ;)
15:59:16 <mroman> I have a fetish for simple websites .
15:59:19 <APic> s/fixed/fixed-Size/
15:59:30 <APic> My Website is quite simple
15:59:45 <fizzie> Does it have a lot of Words with Capital Letters, at least?
15:59:52 <mroman> http://md.mroman.ch/ <- I started to switch all my sites to this exact same CSS
16:00:21 <APic> http://apic.name does not even use CSS
16:00:38 <mroman> Ideally you wouldn't use CSS, yes
16:00:44 <mroman> but browsers usually have a sucky default CSS imo
16:00:56 <mroman> headings are way too large in my opinion
16:01:10 <mroman> and having the page width 100% of the window per default
16:01:16 <mroman> It looks stupid on wide screens
16:01:25 <mroman> it's better to not use the full width.
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16:27:13 <b_jonas> Is Jace the only character who has six or more Planeswalker cards representing them?
16:27:55 <FireFly> izabera: that's how I would align it, FWIW
16:29:33 <b_jonas> (Chandra has five, Garruk has five)
16:33:12 <mroman> I'm still struggling with the formal proof for the df constants
16:33:16 <mroman> they intuitively make sense
16:33:22 <mroman> but I don't know how to proof it formally :(
16:33:56 <mroman> Generally I can show that numbers of the form n^{2m} can in fact be reached fastest
16:36:50 <b_jonas> wait a minute. if you tell Firefox to always use my fonts, not allowing webpages to override them, then it still downloads font from the web and uses them for the page as a fallback for characters that aren't in the font I specificed but are in other fonts I have installed on my system?
16:36:57 <b_jonas> Does this look crazy only to me?
16:38:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45335&oldid=45307 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+216) /* Page removal request */
16:43:29 <mroman> http://md.mroman.ch/blog/2015-11-12.html <- that's what I've got so far :(
16:45:04 <mroman> The thing left is to prove that if n^2m < x < n^2(m-1) then the fastest way is to go to whichever is nearest and use i or d
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16:49:32 <mroman> I probably just need to show, that any number between those can not be reached in less than n+m steps
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17:09:53 <Jafet> Under what sort of conditions will n^2m < x < n^2(m-1)?
17:10:12 <int-e> mroman: your math is wrong. repeated squaring gets you to n^(2^m). Also, you should simply aim for the closest square number, so one of n^2 < x < (n+1)^2.
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17:11:22 <int-e> (ignoring the nasty case of 256).
17:12:47 <Jafet> 256 isn't even that nasty. For numbers 256^4 and up, it's still better to go to 256^2 and square it.
17:12:52 <int-e> A useful fact is that if df(x) is the smallest number of operations to reach x from 0 in deadfish, then |df(x) - df(x+1)| <= 1, still ignoring the 256 complication.
17:13:37 <int-e> This is simply because you can get from x to x+1 by a single operation, and vice versa.
17:14:48 <Jafet> That doesn't give very useful bounds, though, since df(x) = Θ(√x).
17:14:57 <int-e> Jafet: the thing is, repeated squaring is a very infrequent case. you're far more likely to end up with small adjustments after each squaring.
17:16:02 <int-e> Jafet: it's a useful lemma because it bounds the different of the costs for reaching n or n+1 in n^2 < x < (n+1)^2, and also shows that except for very small x, aiming for a smaller or a larger square cannot possibly help.
17:17:24 <int-e> (one of the < should be <= of course ...)
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17:42:54 <coppro> b_jonas: jace is the most promiscuous planeswalker hth
17:45:17 <b_jonas> coppro: and he's a memory mage, he made sure he has good publicity by ensuring everyone always remembers him while they forget the other planeswalkers
17:46:02 <b_jonas> I think he even made sure Teferi got such a ridiculously forgettable planeswalker card, because Jace saw him as a potential rival, being the same color.
17:48:19 <b_jonas> And Teferi is delayed in revenging on him, because his ovinomancer powers extends only to creatures, and unlike some planeswalkers, Jace isn't so stupid as to turn to a creature planeswalker.
17:50:52 <b_jonas> Jace even ensured everyone remembers him by getting into the flavor text of a lot of spells.
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18:51:32 <zzo38> I do not dislike the default CSS of the browser. However, if the user does not like it then he should modify it.
18:52:51 <zzo38> If you put in your own CSS to not use the full width or for whatever, then I would have to override it per each site to force it to use the full width of the window.
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19:41:22 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IVBYW2CSDgvspkCl0nYTy-FQPUwozYdkX2H-cZGwALo/edit?usp=sharing
19:41:37 <hppavilion[1]> I'm working on Getchl right now and am still looking for feedback
19:41:52 <hppavilion[1]> If anyone feels like clicking the link and telling me what they think...
20:02:54 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: There isn't an abbieviated version, unless you don't care about the commands in which case the Wiki has that on the Getchl page
20:03:15 <izabera> but it's *eight* pages -_-
20:03:30 <izabera> of arbitrary associations between actions and keys
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20:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Some of them are based on the traditional meanings (:=dup), some based loosely on meanings in other languages (;=halt), and some are just chosen because they look like they should mean that (@=loop)
20:06:21 <hppavilion[1]> The letter ones are either mneumonics (r=read), and 0-9 and A-F are Hex codes
20:10:45 <hppavilion[1]> But yes, it /is/ 8 pages. All printable ASCII characters, plus a number of variant commands, and a list of useful mneumonics
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20:54:16 <b_jonas> whew, I was writing a completely stupid statement in my program. good thing the compiler caught it.
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20:58:36 <b_jonas> more like, I was writing several stupid statements
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21:28:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Unicode/Potential Meanings]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45336 * Hppavilion1 * (+755) Created Page
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21:44:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Greentext]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45337 * 160.3.110.148 * (+2080) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Greentext |author=[[Jfeng41]] |year=[[:Category:2015|2015]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |refimpl=[https://github.com/jfeng41/..."
21:55:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Greentext]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45338&oldid=45337 * 160.3.110.148 * (+206)
21:57:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Greentext]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45339&oldid=45338 * 160.3.110.148 * (+22)
21:58:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Greentext]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45340&oldid=45339 * 160.3.110.148 * (-2)
21:58:17 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:00:21 <Guest52752> I'm having trouble finding some ideas to name my esolang
22:00:52 <izabera> a memorable name is important
22:01:34 -!- Guest52752 has changed nick to Mrlemons.
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22:02:20 <Mrlemons> it's a turing tarpit with only two characters
22:03:29 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
22:03:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Greentext]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45341&oldid=45340 * 160.3.110.148 * (+9)
22:04:40 <int-e> ttctc - turing tarpit containing two characters
22:05:22 <izabera> tttc two characters turing tarpit
22:07:13 <FireFly> assuming you intended it to be recursive
22:13:33 -!- Mrlemons has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:15:24 <int-e> `learn The tapeworm is the bane of tape libraries. Its natural enemy is the tape archiver, tar.
22:15:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'tapeworm': The tapeworm is the bane of tape libraries. Its natural enemy is the tape archiver, tar.
22:17:11 <izabera> google cats scared by cucumbers
22:17:34 <int-e> don't hold your breath
22:19:44 <izabera> did you know that oxygen has a 100% killing rate
22:22:13 <int-e> About 7% of people have not yet died despite being exposed to 21% O2 in the atmosphere almost all the time.
22:23:28 <int-e> I will, but you have no proof that that will work.
22:27:19 <izabera> bet your $dayjob is lobbyst for a tobacco firm
22:29:47 <int-e> Ok, I'll add this: I was speaking mathematically; scientifically you seem to be on the safe side.
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22:42:29 <int-e> oerjan is moving backward in time
22:44:07 -!- mauris has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:44:11 <int-e> well, last time I saw you join it was after midnight, and now it's before midnight (local time, here)
22:44:22 <oerjan> are you referring to me being constantly backlogged (approx. 2 months for the wiki and /r/haskell)
22:44:37 -!- mauris has joined.
22:46:24 <oerjan> int-e: today i shopped just before the shop closed at 11, so had to go home a bit early to reach it.
22:46:52 <shachaf> how early do you usually go home
22:47:16 <oerjan> 11 (12 on weekends), because that's when the restaurant closes
22:47:46 <oerjan> except when my sleeping cycle is enough different that i'm asleep then
22:48:26 <zzo38> What are your opinion of some of my ideas about improvement to make for SQLite?
22:48:51 <shachaf> I don't remember the ideas.
22:50:23 <zzo38> It is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/sqlext
22:59:49 <izabera> i don't know much of the sqlite internals but where is the button that produces chocolate chips
23:00:42 <mauris> god someone tell me the truth behind design patterns already
23:01:22 <zzo38> mauris: I don't know!
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23:01:49 <zzo38> izabera: I think SQLite does not have the button to produce chocolate chips.
23:02:11 <mauris> i'm being forced to use ~the observer pattern~ and also ~MVC~, to make a space invaders clone in c++
23:03:25 <Taneb> izabera, maybe you can submit a patch
23:03:35 <izabera> does the non lite version have them?
23:03:44 <zzo38> You would need some other equipment to produce chocolate chips, but if you would want to you might be able to make SQLite extension to drive such a machine.
23:04:12 <shachaf> mauris: the observer pattern is required to collapse the wave function hth
23:05:05 <zzo38> izabera: There is no "non lite" version, although there is a paid version that adds support for encryption and compression (you can still do these things with the free version too although you would have to implement such a VFS yourself unless someone else has already made such a free VFS for such purpose); it doesn't add chocolate chips though
23:05:50 <int-e> mauris: what happens if you apply the observer pattern to a heated kettle of water (or milk)?
23:06:40 <Taneb> ...who puts milk in the kettle?
23:06:42 <zzo38> Many things can be done with extensions, although some things should need to be applied to the core in order to work properly (except for json_aggregate which would be applied to an existing extension and not to the core)
23:06:52 <Taneb> Probably object-oriented programmers
23:07:49 <zzo38> An extension can implement a virtual table module, although there are some things that virtual tables currently do not do; I suggested what improvements could be made.
23:08:19 <zzo38> Much of what I wrote is only about the public API and not about the internals anyways (although the internals clearly would need to be modified in order to implement such things).
23:12:47 <shachaf> has oerjan come unstuck in time?
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23:26:15 <Taneb> I need to step up my Italian
23:26:25 <Taneb> By which I mean, I need to actually learn Italian
23:31:16 <izabera> inglourious basterds is not enough?
23:33:30 <boily> (safely addressing you in the vocative case.)
23:35:39 <boily> \helloren\, b_jellonas, chelloppro, ellodwardk, Firellofly, fizziello, fungellot, Greghellor, int-ello, J_Arcanello, Jafellot, lifthellorasiir, helleu, Hellymia, mhellauris, Mellolvar...
23:36:44 <boily> mynamello, nellortti, hellocharles__, hellørjan, hellolsner, Phantom_Helloover, pikhelloq, QUINTHELLOPIA, Sgello, hellochaf, shellokhin, trellomp, tswellott, hezzo38!
23:38:31 <Taneb> If I learnt Italian, I could ask my information theory teacher to tutor me in his native language, which he can't possibly be less eloquent in
23:39:18 <coppro> but would you be able to do so in time?
23:40:08 <izabera> just add o at the end of each word
23:40:44 <izabera> next, wanna try spanish? add s at the end of each italianized word
23:43:28 <boily> what about Portuguese?
23:44:32 <izabera> i'm not even exaggerating that much
23:46:38 <boily> and for Norwegian, you add in some ø I guess...
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