00:05:08 <izabera> that's what they build supercomputers out of 
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00:50:06 <oerjan> shachaf: oh dear, i was vaguely thinking about Banjo... 
01:05:26 <izabera> how do i call the unicode character identifier thingy? 
01:05:46 <izabera> there was a bot here that did it 
01:06:37 <oerjan> oh now it's starting to download something else too. 
01:11:13 <oerjan> although if so, there will be another tie, and how do they break that? 
01:13:23 <HackEgo> [U+0078 LATIN SMALL LETTER X] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0079 LATIN SMALL LETTER Y] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z] 
01:13:47 <HackEgo> unidecode is /hackenv/bin/unidecode 
01:13:57 <izabera> `` file /hackenv/bin/unidecode 
01:13:58 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/unidecode: Python script, ASCII text executable 
01:14:05 <izabera> `` cat /hackenv/bin/unidecode 
01:14:06 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import os, sys \ import unicodedata \ s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ if u"DUNNO" in s: \   os.execvp("multicode", ["multicode"] + sys.argv[1:]) \ else: \   print s 
01:15:08 <izabera> why is it joining them with spaces? 
01:15:12 <\oren\> izabera: why would it be wrong? 
01:15:29 <oerjan> what, it gave up immediately. 
01:36:47 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I should create a suite of programs demonstrating different abstract machines... 
01:39:04 <izabera> doesn't that require like 40+ years of experience 
01:39:46 <hppavilion[1]> It doesn't require THAT much experience to start on it. I mean, I understand the basic abstract machines 
01:40:36 <hppavilion[1]> It would cover things like Turing and Minsky machines 
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02:02:32 <shachaf> oerjan: of course you were 
02:02:35 <shachaf> oerjan: banjo, demigod of corrupt ops 
02:03:09 <adu> I used to have my client notify me anytime my nick appeared anywhere, but I think I configured it only only match on words, because I was getting too many hits on "graduate" 
02:03:37 <adu> izabera: :/ 
02:04:06 <izabera> just learn to gradually ignore them 
02:04:44 <izabera> `` grep adu /usr/share/dict/words 
02:04:45 <HackEgo> grep: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory 
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02:05:22 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm trying to learn about Epistemic logic and Temporal logic, so I can mash them together into a horrible mess 
02:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Also, I invented Probabilistic Combinatory Logic. 
02:06:22 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to think of a property of the world I can invent a logic about 
02:06:34 <\oren\> esprit du corps: spirit of the corpse 
02:06:43 <adu> I think Temporal logic is just regular logic plus the fermionic principle 
02:07:13 <hppavilion[1]> Though I WOULD like to see wibbly wobbly temporal logic, which allows for time travel 
02:07:26 <adu> timey wimy? 
02:07:54 <adu> thats my favorite kind of logic :) 
02:08:05 <hppavilion[1]> So do you have any ideas for what I can make a logic about? Time and knowledge are definitely taken. 
02:08:18 <adu> is "B" a reference to the new sonic shades? 
02:08:21 <hppavilion[1]> Time/knowledge would be cool, but not original enough 
02:08:58 <adu> hppavilion[1]: do you watch Dr.Who? 
02:09:18 <adu> and you don't know about the sonic shades? 
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02:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Nope. I only watch it on netflix, because that's what I have access to 
02:10:36 <hppavilion[1]> (I thought "sonic shades" was about a video game character xD) 
02:12:11 <adu> I have netflix 
02:12:28 <adu> it basically has all the B movies I never wanted to watch 
02:13:22 <adu> some of my favorite movies are still not on netflix 
02:13:45 <adu> like Idiocracy, Serenity, Battlestar Galactica 
02:14:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Epistemic logic]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45442 * Hppavilion1 * (+98) Created page, maybe possibly might make good someday perhaps 
02:14:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Epistemic logic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45443&oldid=45442 * Hppavilion1 * (+9) Stub 
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02:15:16 <adu> hppavilion[1]: so does Epistemic logic cover X knows A, and Y knows B, so Z can't tell X C until Y tells Z D 
02:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> adu: If you mix it with temporal logic and define some terms (e.g. "tell") 
02:16:39 <adu> it already sounds like cells and propogators 
02:19:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: my first thought was that it was the study of epistemology 
02:20:07 <adu> epistemologyology 
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02:22:23 <izabera> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants  about this page 
02:23:01 <izabera> how does one prove that there's no shorter sequence? 
02:24:20 <izabera> so they've been created by humans 
02:24:56 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Alternatively, they could be brute forced by a computer 
02:26:32 <izabera> i have a "language" that has 5 symbols: 'a'  '{'  ','  '}'  ' ' 
02:27:18 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; };    num a 
02:27:21 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; };    num a{,} 
02:27:24 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; };    num a{,,} 
02:27:28 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; };    num a{,,}{,,} 
02:27:37 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; };    num a{,,}{,,} a{,,,}{,,,} 
02:27:57 <izabera> i want to find the shortest sequence that produces a given number 
02:28:53 <izabera> so for 25 there's "a{,,}{,,} a{,,,}{,,,}" but also "a{,,,,}{,,,,}" which is much shorter 
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02:29:28 <lifthrasiir> `` num () { echo "$#"; };    num a{,{,}{,}}{,,,} 
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02:29:45 <izabera> nesting them isn't particularly helpful 
02:30:16 <izabera> aside from a few exceptions, finding the shortest sequence is easy for composite numbers 
02:31:28 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; };    num a{,,,}{,,,}{,,} a{,,}  # 51 as 48+3 
02:31:43 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; };    num a{,,,,}{,,,,}{,} a  # 51 as 50+1 
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02:32:23 <izabera> any idea other than bruteforcing it? 
02:37:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoLogic]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45444 * Hppavilion1 * (+1244) Created Page 
02:38:27 <hppavilion[1]> EsoLogic is really just going to turn into a way to model the world. 
02:38:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoLogic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45445&oldid=45444 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Formatting 
02:41:22 <lifthrasiir> izabera: I have experimented with a form of i*j*...-1 
02:41:38 <lifthrasiir> which is possible with {,a<i-1>}{,a<j-1>}... 
02:42:24 <lifthrasiir> well, I couldn't come up with an example that gives a shorter result than an ordinary case 
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02:43:37 <lifthrasiir> although I have an example of highly composite number: 69 = a{,,}{{,,}{,,,,,,},,} 
02:43:52 <lifthrasiir> probably this problem is not as easy as it seems 
02:44:48 <GoToTell> The max size for any number would be a: num a[,] a[,] a[,] ... and so on, right? 
02:45:16 <izabera> max size would be   a a a a a a a a 
02:45:30 <lifthrasiir> well, for given n the upper bound is `a{<n-1 commas>}` 
02:46:30 <GoToTell> But if you have an max size then you can brute force all combination of multiplication and additions. 
02:48:12 <GoToTell> Hmn, I wonder if it correlates to representing numbers in different bases. 
02:49:21 <izabera> well i'll write the bruteforcer 
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02:50:42 <GoToTell> Always fun to code, if nothing else. 
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02:55:55 <izabera> i'm also dumb and forgot that 51 isn't prime 
02:57:07 <izabera> funny enough, 50+1 is shorter than 3*17 
02:57:21 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; };    num a{,,}{{,,}{,,,,},,}  # 3*17 
02:59:28 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; };    num a{,,}{,,}  # 
02:59:34 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; };    num a{,,}{,} 
03:01:01 <\oren\> I see, it's normal bash syntax, WTF 
03:01:18 <izabera> yes it's just regular brace expansion 
03:02:23 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{{,,,,,}{,,,,,}{,,},} 
03:02:43 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{{,,,,}{,,,,}{,},} 
03:04:00 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,,,}{,,,,}{,} 
03:04:12 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,,,}{,,,,,} 
03:04:15 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,,,}{,,,,,,} 
03:04:19 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,,,,}{,,,,,,} 
03:04:49 <\oren\> wait why am I doing this in the channel 
03:07:00 <lifthrasiir> bracing requirement is a bit hard to get it right 
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03:13:11 <lifthrasiir> okay, fixed: http://ix.io/mgl (source code http://ix.io/mgk.py) 
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03:13:40 <lifthrasiir> num can be also improved, let me check it out 
03:16:02 <lifthrasiir> well, shorter by one byte in some cases, but not further. 
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03:16:28 <lifthrasiir> especially it seems that composite + small number k is useless for k>1 
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03:17:05 <lifthrasiir> anyway, http://ix.io/mgn.py is the new code 
03:17:26 <lifthrasiir> I'm yet to investigate subtractive approach though 
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03:25:56 <lifthrasiir> izabera: okay, I have a concrete example now 
03:26:08 <lifthrasiir> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,}{,{,,,}{,,,{,,,}{,,,}{,,,}}} # additive 
03:26:16 <lifthrasiir> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num {,a{,}{,,,,}}{,a{,,}{,,,}{,,,}} # subtractive 
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03:27:44 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,}{,,,,}}{,a{,,}{,,,}{,,,}  
03:28:12 <lifthrasiir> new list up to 10000: http://ix.io/mgp (code at http://ix.io/mgq.py) 
03:28:40 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,}{,,,,}; num {,a{,}{,,,,}} 
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03:35:34 <izabera> you're doing 10 + 48 + 10*48 so i don't see the subtraction? 
03:39:21 <izabera> and your approach is very nice but i'm not sure you can produce the correct result without actually bruteforcing it   (but i don't have a proof for this) 
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03:54:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoLogic]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45446&oldid=45445 * Hppavilion1 * (+383) New things! Yay! 
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03:56:18 <izabera> but most importantly:  http://www.wizard101central.com/forums/showthread.php?456268-New-Jewels-Dual-Blades-for-all-schools! 
03:56:40 <izabera> new jewels with two +40% buffs at level FIFTEEN?? 
03:58:33 <izabera> and you can have two of those jewels! 
03:59:05 <izabera> wizard101 is a great game guys, you should definitely try it 
03:59:48 <izabera> omg i can have both balance AND ice blades omg omg omg 
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04:09:51 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a Modal Logic programming language... 
04:10:12 <hppavilion[1]> A sort of epistemic/probabilistic/deontic/temporal programming language 
04:11:52 <adu> hppavilion[1]: like prolog? 
04:12:22 <hppavilion[1]> But with Temporal/epistemic/deontic/probabilistic properties 
04:20:34 <oerjan> gah i take a short break, and *poof* another reboot 
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04:21:50 <oerjan> i suspect some of the programs that start up automatically when it's "idle" crashes it. 
04:22:10 <oerjan> on the bright side, IE remembered its tabs this time. 
04:24:25 <oerjan> hm next time i put it to sleep before i walk away for any length of time. 
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04:47:01 <izabera> how can i find the nearest lower prime power? 
04:47:34 <izabera> i mean, the highest number that's a power of a prime number, that's lower than my number 
04:48:22 <izabera> 127 is my number, 125 is the nearest lower prime power 
04:48:34 <izabera> not sure if this thing has a name 
04:49:05 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Lookup table|Brute force|prime checking algorithm|solve the Reimann Hypothesis 
04:49:53 <izabera> impractical|???|yeah that|that's the next step 
04:50:26 <hppavilion[1]> OK, just to make sure, are you ACTUALLY working on the Riemann Hypothesis? 
04:51:52 <hppavilion[1]> I have seen the future when they prove it has no solution. 
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04:59:58 <\oren\> this time with autogenerated char count at the end of allchars.htm 
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05:00:24 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/allchars.htm 
05:00:46 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: no, I meant the literal "moment" 
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05:01:03 <\oren\> 5601 characters, total 
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05:02:12 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: who were the first and the second? (and just to be sure, do they include oren?) 
05:02:55 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: oren is first, I'm second, assuming no one has done it before us 
05:03:09 <\oren\> b_jonas I think has his own font 
05:03:14 <izabera> \oren\: your #define's are the best 
05:03:30 <lifthrasiir> actually I have my own font as well, very old ASCII-limited one though 
05:03:33 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Yes, but it can't be rendered outside of a special program I made 
05:03:55 <hppavilion[1]> Well, unless one were to make another renderer or a compiler. 
05:04:01 <izabera> #define brault break;default 
05:04:11 <lifthrasiir> https://github.com/lifthrasiir/angolmois/blob/625f843/angolmois.c#L876-L916 
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05:05:27 <lifthrasiir> the "bitmap" font composed of a filled square or four kinds of right triangle or their impositions as well 
05:06:00 <\oren\> and apparently encoded in base 96? 
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05:06:40 <lifthrasiir> 33 through 97 encodes a literal code (which is remapped through `words`) 
05:07:25 <lifthrasiir> 98 through... 126? I don't know, but anyway they encode a count which is followed by a distance offseted by 32. 
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05:09:15 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: my original goal is to make a minimal game in the minimal number of bytes, so it was inevitable 
05:09:35 <lifthrasiir> I probably crushed the whole game into 15,000 bytes of really unreadable source code 
05:10:05 <lifthrasiir> then I cleaned it up for making it a bit easier to read while still being minimal (i.e. limited to 2,000 lines of code) 
05:10:41 <\oren\> do you have a sample image? 
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05:13:07 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/lifthrasiir/angolmois-rust/gh-pages/img/angolmois1.jpg https://raw.githubusercontent.com/lifthrasiir/angolmois-rust/gh-pages/img/angolmois2.jpg 
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05:17:30 <izabera> \oren\: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13955163/imitating-a-blink-tag-with-css3-animations   add it to http://www.orenwatson.be/ansi.htm 
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05:31:38 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to think of a new idea for a modal logic 
05:32:26 <adu> hppavilion[1]: solve the Reimann Hypothesis is a great name for a logic language 
05:37:56 <adu> ooo SemanticLang 
05:39:42 <adu> The Semantic Web is all about graphs 
05:40:01 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I might have spent too much time reading about OpenCyc and OWL/RDF 
05:40:41 <adu> for me, RDF is a way of life 
05:40:56 <adu> it's like a lens you see the world thru 
05:42:08 <adu> without the RDF worldview, you might make an HTTP log format like http://www.softwareishard.com/har/schema/HTTPArchiveV12.xsd 
05:42:24 <adu> with the RDF worldview, you might make an HTTP log format like http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF10/ 
05:44:11 <adu> http://www.softwareishard.com/blog/har-12-spec/ is the JSON spec that goes along with HTTPArchiveV12.xsd 
05:49:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45447&oldid=45415 * Quintopia * (-9) /* Examples */ Golfed the truth-machine some more 
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06:16:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine/aubergine.py]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45448&oldid=45416 * Quintopia * (-45) oops this was debugging 
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06:29:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45449&oldid=45447 * Quintopia * (-65) /* Hello, world! */ 
06:29:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45450&oldid=45449 * Quintopia * (+2) /* Hello, world! */ 
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06:32:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine/aubergine.py]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45451&oldid=45448 * Quintopia * (-146) Ref impl allows jumping outside of program in either direction to halt 
06:33:50 <hppavilion[1]> Am I correct in my calculuations that B(BBB) = a(bc)(de)(fg) wher B is from the B,C,K,W system (Babc = a(bc)) 
06:47:04 <myname> where are those small letters coming from? 
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06:50:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine/aubergine.py]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45452&oldid=45451 * Quintopia * (+2) this is out of bounds too according to ref impl 
06:51:24 <myname> my attempt: (B(BBB))abcdefg = B(BBB)abcdefg = (BBB)(ab)cdefg = BBB(ab)cdefg = B(B(ab))cdefg = B(ab)(cd)fg = ab((cd)f)g 
06:52:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45453&oldid=45450 * Quintopia * (-33) /* Examples */ Golfed the quine some more 
06:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> Remember that I had to figure out how many variables there were in the process, so abcdefg might be too many 
06:53:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic/Analysis of combinators]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45454&oldid=45436 * Hppavilion1 * (+2217) Various new combinator walkthroughs, some might even be right! 
06:56:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45455&oldid=45453 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Hello, world! */ Original had a comma 
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07:06:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic/Analysis of combinators]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45456&oldid=45454 * Hppavilion1 * (+570) MOAR combinators 
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08:06:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: a(bc)(de)(fg) = B(a(bc)(de))fg = BB(a(bc))(de)fg = B(BB(a(bc))defg = BB(BB)(a(bc))defg = B(BB(BB))a(bc)defg = B(B(BB(BB))a)bcdefg = BB(B(BB(BB)))abcdefg 
08:07:18 <oerjan> it's a mechanical transformation that way 
08:07:54 <oerjan> @pl \a b c d e f g -> a(b c)(d e)(f g) 
08:10:20 <oerjan> @pl \a bc d e f g -> a bc(d e)(f g) 
08:11:48 <oerjan> @pl \abc d e f g -> abc(d e)(f g) 
08:12:55 <oerjan> i suppose there might be alternative paths 
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08:59:24 <b_jonas> \oren\: re char count, thanks 
09:06:12 <b_jonas> \oren\: since you're now extracting the set of characters automatically, you can also add some automatic checks: make sure that all characters are on the demo page, make sure that all printable characters encodable in certain byte encodings are all in your font, say iso-8859-{1,2,4,15,16}, cp125{2,0,1}-new, ibm{437,850,852} 
09:10:14 <b_jonas> Especially in ibm437 because that's important, has strange characters, and the unicode encoding is not well defined historically. 
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10:31:47 <fungot> mroman: to use the janko layout :( en tii ei toimi fnord vaan sanoo ett mulla ei oo fnord ja nyt koko fnord haisee fnord. let me check 
10:31:59 <mroman> fungot: Is that a keyboard layout? 
10:31:59 <fungot> mroman: who needs two asses?' as if vim is some unknown entity 
10:32:23 <mroman> fungot: two donkeys are better than one. 
10:32:24 <fungot> mroman: each blogger has the ability to send items fnord. ( and we didn't have autocad) ( else) 
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10:34:43 <b_jonas> fungot: but two mules are even better than two donkeys 
10:34:44 <fungot> b_jonas: and very very bad explanation lying on pastebin and i'm adding the last bits; the interpreter is in vm/ heap/ stack/ probably? 
10:57:50 <mroman> fungot: Are you a mule? 
10:57:51 <fungot> mroman: although i guess tentacles could be called " main" procedures at the top level is really just a suburb of new york. i almost have to. 
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11:40:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 
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11:43:24 <fungot> boily: in case you haven't noticed. " heh." ( if that were the subject of a cfj was used as an interpreted has failed this ' local' served up an english breakfast, complete with ftl ship, while he watches them via a microscope. 
11:44:03 <boily> a Full English Breakfast delivered by FTL ship. I could see myself eating that last Sunday. 
11:45:10 <b_jonas> fungot: you still don't really understand punctuation, do you? 
11:45:10 <fungot> b_jonas: and at this point in time. 
11:46:14 <boily> fungot's spacetime alignment is a little fuzzy... 
11:46:14 <fungot> boily: fnord annotated 7907 with " rsa" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord? starts with lambda calculus 
11:47:52 <Taneb> > let loeb x = go where go = fmap ($ go) x in tail . loeb $ const 1 : map (fmap sum . take) [0..] 
11:47:54 <lambdabot>  [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,... 
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11:57:44 <HackEgo> vjoba: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 
11:57:58 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. that is vile. 
11:58:24 <Taneb> boily: I was trying to get the triangle numbers, is the worst thing 
11:59:11 <boily> that is terrifyingly vile. 
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12:00:03 <boily> beuh, a fleeing `relcomed newcomer... 
12:00:20 <Taneb> Maybe they're going to DALnet or EFnet 
12:01:22 <Taneb> Or maybe they really do not like rainbows 
12:03:05 <b_jonas> `perl -le$==1,(1x$_)=~/(^)(1|11\1)*(?{$=++})^/,print$=for 0..20 
12:03:06 <HackEgo> 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 
12:05:06 <Taneb> I have no idea how that works 
12:05:48 * boily eats breakfast cereals. cereals are simple. 
12:06:55 <b_jonas> Taneb: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=796576 and follow links from there 
12:07:33 <FireFly> I don't have a really obfuscated fib, but.. 
12:07:35 <FireFly> [ {.{.|:(+/ .*)^:(<20)~2 2$*i.4 
12:07:58 <izabera> how do you detect cycles in a list like this?     a->b b->c c->d ... z->a 
12:08:22 <Taneb> izabera: isn't there the.. yeah 
12:08:54 <izabera> ok it's not a linked list actually 
12:09:08 <FireFly> well the principle still works I think 
12:09:22 <Taneb> Unless it could be a lazy infinite list 
12:09:39 <izabera> i'm trying to fix something in (guess what) bash 
12:09:48 <izabera> how bash resolves namerefs 
12:11:13 <izabera> i'll try to apply tortoise and hare <.< 
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12:44:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:5-logic]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45457&oldid=14929 * Martin Büttner * (+504)  
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12:58:13 <mroman> izabera: topological sorting? 
12:59:25 <izabera> i didn't mean to steal your focus sorry 
12:59:51 <mroman> I don't know. It's the only algorithm I associate with cycle detection in graphs. 
12:59:57 <mroman> well.. that's the only one I was taught at least. 
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13:01:30 <mroman> You throw every node out that has no inputs 
13:01:34 <mroman> and you're left with cycles 
13:03:30 <izabera> i'm not doing anything that fancy <.< 
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14:47:33 <b_jonas> Question. Does the particular representation of a computability class that David Madore defines in http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-16.2337.html count as an esoteric programming language (not implementable, because it's more powerful than Turing-complete)?  
14:49:07 <b_jonas> It is well defined enough that you can write prorams for it, but it's not inteded to be practically programmed, so it might count as one, but then IA64 machine code could also count as esoteric programming language in that sense. 
14:50:13 <izabera> where's the english version? 
14:51:32 <FireFly> I think the definition of an esolang is fuzzy and weak enough that it would probably count 
14:51:40 <FireFly> not having read it, just going by your description 
14:52:02 <FireFly> I think the only thing that makes IA64 machine code not an esolang is that it's actually used in practice for practical purposes... 
14:52:55 -!- int-e_ has set topic: int-e. 
14:53:02 -!- int-e_ has changed nick to int-e. 
14:53:19 -!- int-e has set topic: The flating channel. | /ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/. 
14:53:37 <int-e> sometimes my brain is awfully confused :-( 
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15:00:03 <int-e> Well, that's a lie. It's always terribly confused, but it's usually much better at hiding that fact from the outside world. 
15:00:04 <b_jonas> Pity it doesn't have a name given.  
15:00:08 <fungot> int-e: made it long before i lose interest. but thanks, i'll read in it a bit more :) but then i'll be free to contribute)...) 
15:00:21 <HackEgo> jwinslow23/JWinslow23 is not here. 
15:00:26 <HackEgo> bonvenon/Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) 
15:00:46 <HackEgo> kmc/kmc ran the International Devious Code Contest of 2013 
15:01:28 <b_jonas> fungot, should I code this the straightforward way or the tricky way? 
15:01:29 <fungot> b_jonas: will you marry me? ( sorry i don't have 
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15:02:35 <ais523> perhaps surprisingly, that is not the first time I've seen a bot make a marriage proposal 
15:03:15 <int-e> b_jonas: the tricky way is fraught with peril down the road 
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15:17:50 <b_jonas> It's actually two programming langauges, because he also claims that by dropping rule 7, you get a language that is Turing complete but no more powerful. 
15:18:52 <b_jonas> ais523: "Question. Does the particular representation of a computability class that David Madore defines in http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-16.2337.html count as an esoteric programming language (not implementable, because it's more powerful than Turing-complete)?" 
15:19:13 <b_jonas> I think it does, but it doesn't have a nice name, so we need to give those two languages nice names and document them on the esowiki. 
15:19:29 <FireFly> Would make it more accessible too 
15:19:38 <ais523> oh right, David Madore writes a large subset of things in French 
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15:28:57 <b_jonas> ok, so what name should we use for these two languages? 
15:30:43 <b_jonas> int-e: no, I think that's the computational class. we need something for this particular programming language with that power, and for the other language that computes only all computable functions too. 
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15:32:05 <b_jonas> We need a snappy name, like "Real Fast Nora's Hair Saloon 3: Shear Disaster Download 
15:32:05 <int-e> izabera: I believe that ^^ was for you 
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15:44:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45458&oldid=44539 * B jonas * (+139) /* Todo */ 
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15:59:27 <quintopia> b_jonas: How about "In-silico Vector Construction" 
16:02:39 <quintopia> b_jonas: "Panglossian Prerogative"? 
16:05:54 <b_jonas> quintopia: we need two related names. one for the computable version, one for the more powerful one. 
16:06:33 <b_jonas> because the languages are related too 
16:06:35 <quintopia> "The Comutable One" "The More Powerful One" 
16:06:51 <b_jonas> maybe throw in a "++" for the more powerful one 
16:07:42 <quintopia> "Pizza Parlor" "Sex Parlor" i think that conveys the relatedness and the relationship between them 
16:37:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Banana Scheme]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45459&oldid=20646 * B jonas * (+187)  
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17:18:48 <b_jonas> MaRo writes some hard to believe things in http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/know-what-2015-11-16  
17:19:33 <b_jonas> (1) he says he's vowed to make assembling contraptions work some day, and (2) he says they're doing fewer clone effects these days 
17:22:00 <b_jonas> hmm, (2) actually seems true. interesting... 
17:22:33 <b_jonas> I mean, for a while there were a ton of clone effects in uncommon, which was strange to me because at the time I was the most active, there were almost none 
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17:25:48 <ais523> b_jonas: (1) is true but probably misguided 
17:25:56 <ais523> I've tried analyzing the grammar of that phrase myself 
17:26:04 <ais523> there are very few actions that could possibly be templated like that 
17:27:03 <ais523> the closest I can get using existing keywords is "whenever a «Goblin» you control would «block» an «Elf», it «blocks» two «Elves» instead" which I think is correctly templated but wouldn't be printed due to the actual ability raising too many questions 
17:27:55 <ais523> also I personally think the biggest problem with M:tG is that it's all focused on creating temporary metagames that you throw away after a few months 
17:28:00 <ais523> rather than working on really improving a single metagame 
17:28:21 <ais523> meaning that they can be quite simplistic and easy to solve and Wizards just has to slow down the thread of information, and also that the game doesn't have long-term appeal without continuously spending money 
17:32:59 <ais523> "slow down the spread of information" 
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18:42:44 <b_jonas> ais523: I definitely agree that trying to make assembling contraptions work is a bad idea 
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19:04:02 <b_jonas> aha! it actually makes sense this way 
19:04:27 <b_jonas> rule 5 is doing what that rule should be doing, and what it does in that language whose name I can't remember, it's just difficult to read 
19:04:55 <ais523> we should make a language whose name is impossible to remember 
19:05:12 <ais523> but also isn't just a bunch of mashing on the keyboard, and whose name is also hard to abbreviate or substitute as something else 
19:05:32 <ais523> The Language That Shall Not Be Abbreviated As ABCDEF is probably the best we have in this regard so far 
19:05:39 <b_jonas> that could be achieved by making a set of languages whose names are all similar 
19:05:44 <b_jonas> as in, twisty maze of passages 
19:06:01 <b_jonas> though of course "impossible" isn't easy to satisfy when you're on this channel 
19:06:06 <b_jonas> people take it as a challenge 
19:06:17 <FireFly> Well I never remember INTERCAL's *name* (as opposed to acronym) 
19:06:35 <ais523> Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym 
19:06:53 <FireFly> No, what ais523 said is the canonical name I think 
19:07:01 <FireFly> Well, INTERCAL might be the actual name 
19:07:05 <ais523> it's defined as something like "INTERCAL, which stands for Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym" 
19:08:23 <ais523> this makes it rather philosophical what its name actually /is/ 
19:08:40 <ais523> it's one of the best esolang naming screwups that wasn't created by cpressey 
19:08:46 <b_jonas> but which rules lets you cons a pair? there has to be one, you can't be expected to build it from addition because you need to make conses to implement that because rule 6 has to be involved and it needs lists 
19:08:54 <ais523> (intentional screwups, I should say) 
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19:11:37 <ais523> b_jonas: just out of interest: if you come across a website in a language you don't know and machine-translate it, do you translate it into English or Hungarian? 
19:12:01 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know, I almost never try to machine-translate websites 
19:12:18 <b_jonas> but if I tried, I probably machine translated it to English 
19:12:27 <izabera> in my understanding google translates to english first and then to the second language 
19:12:34 <ais523> I used to do it more, and got decently good at reading "machine translator output that's allegedly English" (which is really a language of its own) 
19:12:42 <ais523> but I haven't done it for a while 
19:12:47 <ais523> (especially since I decided to break ties with Google) 
19:12:48 <b_jonas> ais523: from what source languages? 
19:13:00 <ais523> b_jonas: French was probably the most common 
19:13:09 <b_jonas> ais523: and did you read it without reading the source in parallel, or with? 
19:13:11 <ais523> although I know enough French to make semi-sense of articles written in it even without translation 
19:13:25 <b_jonas> French is easier to translate to English automatically than Chinese that is 
19:13:43 <b_jonas> especially if you read texts about mathematics or informatics, where most of the words simply mirror translate 
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19:14:43 <b_jonas> can you make sense of the language in http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-16.2337.html ?  
19:14:45 <ais523> that makes sense, although you have to be very careful sometimes 
19:14:56 <b_jonas> and if you can't cons, how do you use rule 6? 
19:14:56 <ais523> (e.g. fr:positif = en:nonnegative) 
19:15:13 <b_jonas> ais523: that's not really uniform, neither in English nor in French, sadly 
19:16:52 <b_jonas> he gives a sample program so it should be possible to figure it out 
19:18:05 <b_jonas> and from the simple interpreter he gives, it is clear that he does not depend on the particular representation of pairs, so it's even more clear that it must not be built from successor 
19:19:11 <b_jonas> oh! I think you can use rule 4 (the composition rule) to cons, because it passes a list as argument, and not every program takes that list apart 
19:19:49 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: int is not very interesting when interpreted as a theorem, though 
19:19:56 <b_jonas> that wouldn't let you cons, but it would let you list, which should probably be enough  
19:20:11 <ais523> b_jonas: for my paper, one of the papers I cite was in German 
19:20:16 <b_jonas> because nothing in the language requires you to use variable length lists 
19:20:26 <ais523> I know a little German but was mostly just reading the mathematical notation 
19:20:41 <ais523> shachaf: which reminds me, did you read my thesis yet? you bugged me for so long for a copy ;-) 
19:21:05 <b_jonas> ais523: didn't you say it would be available starting from december, or something? 
19:21:14 <ais523> b_jonas: publicly, yes 
19:21:28 <ais523> shachaf negotiated with the thesis archival people here to be allowed an early copy 
19:22:04 <b_jonas> he argued that it's very important for his research? 
19:22:33 <shachaf> b_jonas: It's being kept hidden for ais523's sake, not for the university's. 
19:22:43 <shachaf> He's free to send a copy to anyone as far as I can tell. 
19:23:03 <ais523> they basically said it was OK for me to send shachaf a copy directly, so I did 
19:23:11 <ais523> the reasoning/nature for the rules is very complex 
19:23:29 <ais523> incidentally I could have had a hold placed on the publication of the thesis, although only a relatively short one without a really good reason 
19:23:35 <ais523> it's unclear to me why I'd have wanted to 
19:26:20 <b_jonas> ok, so why does he say that rule 0 isn't really needed? 
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19:31:31 <b_jonas> can you give a program equivalent to <0> that uses only rules 1..6? I don't see how to do that, but it's probably possible 
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19:38:36 <b_jonas> but at least I can see why if you use rules 0..6 you get a reasonably easy to use turing-complete programming language, on the esoteric scale 
20:03:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic/Analysis of combinators]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45460&oldid=45456 * Hppavilion1 * (+105) /* B[2] combinator */ 
20:03:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic/Analysis of combinators]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45461&oldid=45460 * Hppavilion1 * (-1) /* C combinator */ Fixed a letter 
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20:18:12 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/ueKVqjY  this 
20:21:51 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: why are you a computer? 
20:22:13 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: is that Prolog? or just a language designed to look like it? 
20:22:25 <ais523> actually it can't be Prolog unless it's been split mid-predicate 
20:22:32 <ais523> because Prolog predicates end with a full stop, not a semicolon 
20:30:16 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: It's a prolog-like language, but it's not prolog 
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20:33:52 <myname> everybody should use more curry 
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20:39:33 <myname> like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry_(programming_language) 
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20:58:47 <b_jonas> What's the name of that programming language used in early papers about programming language theory that has rules very similar to 2 and 5 of David Madore's machine, that is, where the basic way to build functions is to compose other functions with arbitrary arity as in the Applicative instance of (->) ? 
20:59:34 <b_jonas> I think it has some famous inventory or something. 
21:03:44 <myname> https://github.com/ryanmcdermott/birdseed 
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21:11:10 <b_jonas> Do you know which language I'm talking about? 
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21:15:13 <b_jonas> I think it might be, like, the original pure functional programming language, or close to it. 
21:15:29 <b_jonas> Not the first pure functional programming language, because Church probably precedes it, but still 
21:15:34 <b_jonas> maybe the first one without variables 
21:15:40 <b_jonas> so more like the original Unlambda 
21:16:40 <b_jonas> only it has ennary composition instead of just S, and easy access to any parameter of the current function 
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21:18:16 <b_jonas> But this doesn't give much keywords to search for. 
21:18:53 <b_jonas> Does my explanation make sense? 
21:19:31 <b_jonas> myname: no no, those are real langauges used on a comptuer 
21:19:40 <b_jonas> this is for writing stuff on paper, back when efficient computers were rare 
21:20:00 <b_jonas> also, doesn't have variables, in the sense that unlambda doesn't have them 
21:20:22 <b_jonas> but you can emulate variables just like in unlambda or any other complete combinator calculus 
21:24:25 <fizzie> Help me, Oer-Jan Kenobi, you're my only hope! 
21:27:17 <b_jonas> Maybe it's connected to Howard Curry 
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22:25:48 <hppavilion[1]> I had to do a workaround for Complex Conjugate. It's $<num> instead of <num>* 
22:26:06 <hppavilion[1]> I ALSO included binary ~, which chooses a number in a range 
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22:51:06 <fungot> boily: google knows all!! 
22:52:29 <fizzie> I didn't teach it that. 
22:54:14 * boily eyes fizzie with suspicion and a mapole 
22:54:34 <fizzie> fungot: Tell them that was all your own opinion. 
22:54:34 <fungot> fizzie: ( added null operators on the end) does leak memory... 
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22:55:58 <boily> at least the 'got now balances his parentheses. 
22:56:24 <fungot> shachaf: what two stars does? to me it's just too hard. how much power do you get fnord to open a window on every x desktop and cat urandom into it 
22:56:47 <shachaf> if you think two stars is too hard, wait until you hear of ais523's new language 
22:57:37 <fizzie> fungot: Every X desktop in the world?  
22:57:37 <fungot> fizzie: i do not care, then remembered again!) paste a line of joyce wrote fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord and friends 
22:57:54 <fizzie> There goes the balance. 
22:59:54 <boily> `` cat /dev/urandom 
22:59:54 <HackEgo> ;kbuVBFV捬x@Xz&eFK9"S<2BJ.Tca≉W(vH܆xŁ/: 
23:01:44 <boily> is it displayed the same everywhere: http://imgur.com/JHGm7eO ? 
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23:14:34 <zgrep> boily: https://clbin.com/D0pijl.png 
23:15:13 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/hPDIW6w.png 
23:17:04 * boily strokes his beard. “interesting...” 
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23:21:52 <FreeFull> Awesome, we have j-bot here too 
23:24:49 <zgrep> Let's see if I can remember this... 
23:25:00 <j-bot> zgrep: |syntax error 
23:25:00 <j-bot> zgrep: |       ~/'izabera' 
23:25:05 <zgrep> Nope, apparently not. 
23:36:23 <izabera> anyway you guys seriously lack imagination when picking names 
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23:39:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Blakusl *  New user account 
23:46:01 <fungot> izabera: how does one go about binding scheme ( say, on the other 
23:46:40 <izabera> hppavilion[1] beacuse he uses an hp pavilion 
23:47:03 <fizzie> HackEgo because you can hack on it. 
23:49:33 <FreeFull> zgrep: What was ~/ meant to do? 
23:51:34 <izabera> it's your home directory hth 
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23:55:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45462&oldid=45441 * Hppavilion1 * (+1311) Meanings