00:00:16 I posted a more thought-out question here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/34099489/printing-out-178-character-string-in-270-lines-of-brainfck 00:00:28 fizzie: cool, thanks for all the help dude 00:05:18 oerjan: hmm, seems unlikely 00:06:22 *hmms* lines? 00:08:48 int-e: i hope so, but having one of gil or tarvek die tragically _would_ be a "traditional" way to resolve the love triangle... 00:09:20 (the untraditional way has already been lampshaded, of course, but whether the foglios actually dare to _use_ it...) 00:09:49 oerjan: yeah, I suppose Tarvek could get out and live while Gil gets stuck in the time bubble 00:10:09 that's the kind of twist the Foglios seem to love ;) 00:10:16 that doesn't work because the dreen said gil will go to paris. 00:10:40 hmm... right 00:10:52 (though did they say when?) 00:12:01 also, gil showed up in the time windows, tarvek didn't. 00:12:43 so tarvek dying would be disturbingly consistent. 00:13:23 hmm. but why now... why not in Paris? 00:13:32 In Agatha's arms, perhaps :P 00:13:36 huh 00:13:55 Anyway... we'll see. 00:14:06 in any case, if he's not to die promptly _someone_ needs to get an antidote, stat 00:14:10 And I wonder whether we'll get to see another Paris strip this year... 00:14:59 also, there might be some twist in _who's_ attacking. maybe they actually came to warn them... 00:15:02 Or amputate the head quickly enough :P 00:15:11 ("Hmm, tricky. But I've seen worse.") 00:15:53 that would rather hamper tarvek's bid for the storm king post... (he _has_ been dead already but it's not common knowledge.) 00:19:07 as has agatha, but the castle decides _that_ family's inheritance rules. 00:21:04 if they suspect something, they might keep him in a time envelope like they did with vole 00:21:24 until they find out how to cure it 00:21:59 -!- bb010g has joined. 00:21:59 * oerjan wonders if he'll ever get used to this stupid hard disk's parking sound 00:22:27 what's wrong with a simple click (i used to find _those_ annoying too...) 00:25:28 none of the service documents say what brand of hard disk it is... 00:27:21 oh maybe it's actually in this menu 00:28:43 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 00:29:40 a friend of mine submitted a paper to arxiv with a typo in its title 00:31:17 how often does it happen? 00:31:29 http://arxiv.org/abs/1512.00766 00:36:37 entering wrong metadata can't be that uncommon... I expect it can easily be fixed... 00:37:02 you have to submit a new version 00:41:46 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Quit: Do fish get thirsty?). 00:45:01 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 01:04:45 http://www.hgst.com/products/hard-drives/travelstar-z5k500 "quiet operation" 01:05:27 the power management settings in windows say it'll only be turned off after 20 minutes. this happens far more often. 01:06:23 * oerjan hopes this will be fixed in the heap of windows updates that are waiting to be installed... 01:18:11 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:18:19 -!- Gregor has joined. 01:40:37 -!- andrew has joined. 01:42:25 <\oren\> heloerjan 01:43:03 <\oren\> try changing it to 30 minutes 01:43:41 i fail to see how that would help when it's parking several times a minute. 01:43:47 *winding down 01:44:14 -!- Newyorkadam has quit (Quit: Newyorkadam). 01:44:16 i suppose it might be an idea to change it just to see if something gets set... 01:45:07 * oerjan puts it at 21 01:45:28 and there it wound down again. 01:45:44 <\oren\> are you sure that it's in minutes and not seconds? 01:45:54 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:45:58 quite sure. 01:46:17 <\oren\> try 1000 minutes 01:46:35 fancy 01:46:39 done 01:47:36 i suppose getting the units in the driver wrong is silly enough to be plausible... except i doubt it's the hard disk driver that counts those minutes... 01:48:16 well getting the units wrong in windows itself would be even sillier, i guess 01:50:37 nah, did it again 01:50:53 <\oren\> > 1000 / 60 01:50:55 16.666666666666668 01:51:04 <\oren\> hmmm 01:51:11 (took a long time before the next disk pause, but then only 5-10 secs until winding down 01:51:14 ) 01:51:42 <\oren\> oh 01:52:06 <\oren\> are you sure the disk isn't defective 01:52:25 the disk is new. i suppose it could be... 01:52:37 <\oren\> also what happens if you try disabling disk parking 01:52:48 i don't know how to do that. 01:53:25 also parking shouldn't be the same as winding down like this :( 01:54:09 How do I change the setting for font smoothing in Firefox in Linux? 01:54:44 All of my other programs do not use antialiasing and cleartype and I want to disable it on Firefox too 01:57:51 <^v> zzo38, why would you want to disable antialiasing ._. 01:57:57 dammit the hdd driver is supposedly already up to date 01:59:22 I also want all programs to use bitmap fonts by default 02:00:25 -!- Newyorkadam has joined. 02:01:58 <\oren\> antialiasing is crap that's why 02:02:37 <\oren\> fonts should be designed to fit the screen without being blurry 02:04:42 <^v> if your fonts are blurry then you need more hinting xD 02:04:55 <\oren\> hinting doesn't do shit 02:05:00 <^v> it does for me 02:05:03 <^v> and everyone else 02:05:56 I found in /etc/fonts/conf.d and I deleted 70-no-bitmaps.conf and 10-antialias.conf from that directory; it doesn't seem to affect Firefox? 02:06:50 <\oren\> ^v: no, most people are just used to looking at blurry text 02:07:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:10:13 <^v> \oren\, with hinting + AA http://i.imgur.com/zXM3ZVg.png, no hinting (really blurry) http://i.imgur.com/YNTsVYS.png, no AA http://i.imgur.com/EYvYhwa.png 02:10:25 <^v> hinting and AA make it much more readable TBH :/ 02:10:33 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:11:29 <^v> also im using subpixel smoothing, normal AA is blurry 02:11:59 hola <-- darn no one remembered to `bienvenido? 02:12:28 <\oren\> ^v: like I said, you're using a badly designed font and then compensating by using antialiasing and subpixel rendering. 02:13:13 can you antialias a square peg to fit in a round hole? 02:13:16 Or you are trying to use a printer font on the screen improperly 02:13:51 <\oren\> If you use a font that is designed to fit exactly into the pixel grid, then antialiasing will make it look worse, not better 02:17:44 <\oren\> I blame Microsoft 02:19:11 I am not using Microsoft; it is Mozilla 02:20:22 <\oren\> Huh? Have you turned off Cleartype? 02:21:48 <\oren\> ^v: for a good example of a font that fits into pixel grids exaclty, compare MS PMincho (pixel perfect) to Times New Roman (Requires AA) 02:22:19 <^v> but what about different text scales? 02:23:40 <^v> if a font is already pixel perfect, it would look the same with hinting? 02:24:10 <\oren\> Usually fonts like PMincho contain several sets of bitmaps for common smaller sizes, plus vector paths for large sizes 02:26:02 <\oren\> ^v: no, what they usually do is use a flag in the TTF or OTF format that tells the renderer specifically NOT to anti-alias the font at small sizes 02:26:32 <^v> so whats the issue with having AA and hinting? 02:26:32 <\oren\> without that flag, it will blur it 02:27:07 <\oren\> that it's the wrong solution to the problem 02:27:16 <^v> i dont see how 02:27:59 <^v> without it most of my fonts look like shit and are really choppy 02:28:07 oerjan: bemvindo 02:28:24 <\oren\> because most of your fonts are not designed for a computer screen 02:28:32 -!- mauris has joined. 02:28:41 <^v> if the font designers had time to make their fonts look good at all scales without AA they would 02:29:00 <\oren\> Japanese font designers have time 02:29:21 ProofTechnique: i don't think we have a portuguese version yet? 02:29:27 <\oren\> They have time to do it for 1000's of kanji for that matter 02:30:40 <^v> .-. so? 02:30:49 <^v> doesnt make my fonts more readable 02:31:01 <^v> subpixel smoothing and hinting do 02:31:07 <\oren\> Hah 02:31:25 <^v> unless someone can redesign every single font 02:31:36 <^v> so they work better at smaller sizes 02:34:19 <\oren\> Well, all I'm saying is in Japan subpixel smoothing is not used at all in the most common fonts. Dunno about Korea or China but I would suspect the same. 02:35:52 <\oren\> Go to http://www.asahi.com/ for example. Do you see subpixel smoothing on that page? I sure don't. 02:36:58 I don't think it would be possible to read that with subpixel smoothing 02:39:08 <^v> the banner with ノーベル賞 02:39:08 <^v> ＩＳ 02:39:08 <^v> 米銃乱射事件 02:39:08 <^v> COP21 02:39:08 <^v> 児童虐待の現場から 02:39:18 <^v> has subpixel smoothing 02:39:37 <^v> sorry for spam, sneaky newlines 02:41:08 And it is quite difficult to read. Even worse in my client :( 02:41:11 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:41:30 <\oren\> hmm, you're right 02:41:47 <\oren\> everything else is crisp though 02:42:08 <^v> 勝,戦,頂 would be impossible to read without AA, the lack of subpixel smoothing on the larger sized text makes it blurry 02:42:23 <^v> \oren\, looks blurry for me 02:42:36 <\oren\> huh 02:43:03 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:43:54 <^v> http://i.imgur.com/VJs0Qsg.png 02:44:40 <\oren\> http://oi63.tinypic.com/t6tgf8.jpg 02:45:16 <^v> i hate tinypic 02:45:36 <\oren\> why 02:46:27 Speaking of fonts, does anyone have a good tool to convert a PCF into a TTF or something? 02:46:51 <^v> 6+ adverisements, popups everywhere, that link isnt an actual .jpg unless you give it a referer header 02:46:58 <\oren\> http://postimg.org/image/km8tpxpf9/ 02:47:01 <^v> it has taken over 60s for the image to load 02:47:41 <^v> oh you have AA disabled 02:47:50 <\oren\> I don't 02:48:13 <\oren\> it's the font 02:48:41 <^v> the font has AA but not subpixel 02:48:46 <^v> for me 02:48:48 <\oren\> Yes 02:49:08 <^v> strange 02:49:37 <\oren\> The font has flags set that way 02:50:32 <^v> so my system is ignoring them? 02:51:04 what's the term for when you discover something and get stuck reading it for hours? 02:51:22 <\oren\> Yes, it's prbably ignoring the GASP table, or you don't have the MS PMincho font 02:51:41 <\oren\> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/gasp.htm 02:52:16 <^v> what is https://esolangs.org/forum/ 02:52:21 <^v> and why is it so bad 02:52:41 <\oren\> no idea 02:53:45 coppro: archive binge hth 02:54:23 <\oren\> looks like the forum has been dead since 2009 02:54:55 <^v> we should re make it xD 02:55:29 ^v: it's just an archive now, it got so much more spam than actual posts that we just closed it when elliott took over the wiki 02:56:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:56:06 <\oren\> where is elliott anyway? 02:56:08 remaking it seems doomed since there's no reason it would be different now 02:56:34 elliott lost interest in the channel and left 02:56:46 <^v> oerjan, how so 02:57:08 <\oren\> I think captchas have been invented now 02:57:09 ^v: it's not the first esoforum to die, the mailing lists did so before 02:57:50 <\oren\> I suppose the forum now is the talk pages 02:57:51 there's /r/esolangs on reddit btw, it's almost but not quite dead 02:58:15 <\oren\> which have the advantage that hackego announces each change here 02:58:16 <^v> oerjan, im thinking of making a website designed to teach people esolangs 02:58:36 <^v> like hackthissite but challenges with esolangs 02:58:59 oerjan: no 02:59:06 oerjan: archive binge is for the activity 02:59:15 err wait 02:59:16 no 02:59:21 the issue is subject/object 02:59:24 I archive binge a comic 02:59:30 The comic ?????es me 03:00:00 then i don't know 03:00:12 -!- mauris has joined. 03:00:32 there's also wikiwalk for another instance 03:04:00 coppro: well there's "draw ... in" i guess 03:04:29 `cat bin/coins 03:04:39 words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords 03:04:49 `run words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} 03:04:55 saligeter fla 1ml difying hangoint fetie ravi monsta mal frea catchdndh teme bearj tript nanegle tbf antinar veliul goul montiner 03:05:08 I'm trying to think of a name for my database query language based on category theory. 03:05:22 <\oren\> catabase 03:06:26 REL is the category of relations iirc hth 03:08:25 -!- heroux has joined. 03:15:48 huh the disk winding down seems to have stopped. 03:16:19 but now there's some clicking instead. i guess this is not a good sign... 03:17:24 * oerjan changes the windows setting down from 1000 mins to 21 mins again, just in case... 03:20:27 Dunno, I kind of want to just think of an arbitrary word and stick a Q in it. 03:22:24 <\oren\> oerjan: get a new computer 03:22:41 Queece. Quines. Qrew. Quendy. 03:23:16 Qonstellation. Quirthmark. 03:24:14 Quins. Quaternal. 03:24:23 Qualls. 03:24:28 (Anyone see the trend here?) 03:24:31 <\oren\> Query 03:24:52 Ooh, I like it. It's like a portmanteau of "query" and "query". 03:25:52 Quite. Quack. Queen. Quellow. Qued. Quue. 03:26:45 \oren\: erm i just got this back from the repair shop, the hdd is new as i said. 03:26:58 I dunno, I'm ready to just start trying arbitrary meaningless words. 03:27:14 now the winding down came back. 03:28:35 Quaniel. 03:28:56 Queel. 03:29:05 -!- andrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:29:22 Wait, how about... Qone? 03:37:16 Nah. 03:39:15 Quendle? I like the way that sounds. 03:39:24 <\oren\> jesus christ this is terrifying. Fontforge does not autotrace well at small sizes 03:40:44 Sure. It'll do. 03:40:54 -!- andrew has joined. 03:41:04 Quite. 03:47:11 <\oren\> here this is the autotraced version http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemowtf.htm 03:47:25 <\oren\> not to e confused with fontdemo.htm 03:49:04 <\oren\> Basically, autotracing it in a normal way makes it a halloween font 03:49:46 <\oren\> That's why I have my complex procedure 03:56:06 shortest someone can get “”See you in another life, brotha!" - Desmond Humes” in brainfuck? 04:04:22 I’ve gotten it to 305 04:04:24 well this program did 04:07:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 04:19:38 I have made calculation of the first, second, and third derivative of Bezier curves. 04:23:54 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 04:24:16 -!- Frooxius has joined. 04:37:00 I think it means, if the jerk is zero then the middle control point have the same direction as the end point from each other but only one third of the distance 04:41:01 -!- Newyorkadam has quit (Quit: Newyorkadam). 04:42:40 If I am interested in writing an interpreted language, should I learn java? I see a LOT of mentionings of java in interpreters. 04:44:49 You don't have to use Java; there are other programming languages to use 04:45:21 <\oren\> cleartpye really screws things up when background: green; color: fuchsia; 04:46:09 I was just curious as I see java everywhere while looking at languages. Must jut be a very very commonly used language. 04:47:02 <\oren\> it's the lingua franca among the younger generation of application coders 04:47:29 I guess I'm weird in multiple ways. 18 and I main C. 04:47:31 <\oren\> especially those trained at school 04:48:33 <\oren\> I write C++ for my job 04:49:05 <^v> \oren\, what type of applications do you make in C++ 04:49:23 <\oren\> I work on the backend of Hound 04:49:56 <\oren\> http://www.soundhound.com/hound <-- this 04:51:05 <\oren\> I learned to code on my own and didn't take courses until university, so I didn't learn much java 04:51:53 <\oren\> To an acceptable degree I know C, C++, Perl, VB, Python, and PHP. 04:52:07 <\oren\> oh and C# 04:52:14 First language I touched was java, because I was lazy and tired of manually doing time dialation calculations. Also, I'm having issues finding sources for 4DL, any tips? 04:52:46 <^v> i dont see a benefit in having to go to a university in order to learn programming, since i already know C++, C, Lua, PHP, GLSL, OpenCL 04:53:16 <^v> working on using dat arm/thumb in real world robotics 04:53:42 -!- Newyorkadam has joined. 04:54:28 <^v> i really dont like java 04:54:33 <\oren\> I made sure to take a lot of math, rather than CS, in uni, that way I learned more. (My degree was still in CS) 04:54:57 <\oren\> E.g. I took advanced calculus and number theory 04:55:01 <^v> yeah i could be better at math 04:55:37 <^v> but i still havent used anything more complicated than trig for physics and simulation programs 04:56:57 <\oren\> The cost/benefit of a university degree is getting worse and worse 04:57:22 <^v> yep 04:58:13 <\oren\> so, I've told younger friends of mine: don't get a degree unless your parents are paying. 04:58:18 <^v> especially a CS degree is useless if you dont know the programming language the job requires 04:59:37 <\oren\> ^v: I'm not so sure, when I got my first job I told them flatly I dodn't know any PHP, but apparently I'm the only one applied who could write a working program in any language... 04:59:39 I program in C and BASIC and TeX and 6502 assembly language 05:00:03 <\oren\> so they hired me and I spent the first week learning php 05:00:07 <^v> 6502 asm :o not many people do that anymore 05:00:22 <\oren\> I do, for modding NES games 05:00:45 Ahah, you guys seem way out of my league. I was considering getting some assembly practice in (i do some smali programming, assembly isn't far off) 05:01:10 <^v> \oren\, i did PHP when i was 13/14 xD it seems to be getting worse and worse the more i look back at it 05:01:48 <^v> oh and also a few months ago modding PHPBB 05:01:55 <\oren\> PHP is horrible and I was very glad when summer and that contract ended 05:04:10 Hm.. how hard is it to write an interpreter for an existing language? 05:04:54 <\oren\> depends on the language. if it has a clear definition then pretty easy 05:05:19 https://esolangs.org/wiki/4DL 05:08:45 <\oren\> should be ok. 05:09:02 <^v> yeah pretty easy 05:12:28 I found the source for one (that doesnt seem to work) in c++, im skimming it and it doesn't seem too hard. Just new. 05:13:00 -!- Newyorkadam has quit (Quit: Newyorkadam). 05:15:10 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:17:21 -!- Newyorkadam has joined. 05:18:00 -!- Patashu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:19:47 -!- Patashu has joined. 05:20:55 <\oren\> new xkcd 05:21:20 <\oren\> Bah, I rerely have a cold that last more than 2 days 05:22:37 I managed to do in brainfuck in 324 characters what a program did in 302!! 05:24:37 What's it do? 05:27:24 prints out “See ya in another life, brotha!" - Desmond Hume” 05:27:32 just realized if forgot the comma.. 05:29:03 Nice. I made a program in befunge-98 (1903 characters) that does **basically** the same thing a program i made in C (2254 characters) does 05:30:30 -!- Newyorkadam has quit (Quit: Newyorkadam). 05:57:25 -!- BloodGod has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:04:49 -!- flaw600 has joined. 06:05:01 -!- flaw600 has left. 06:05:34 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:06:50 fungegolfing! 06:16:17 hmm i wonder if the inventor of su doku was envisioning a 3x3x3x3 4-cube. i wonder if the original notes said "every axis-aligned hyperplane slices through exactly the digits 1-9 in some order" 06:51:18 Karplusan Forest will damage you immediately and City of Brass will damage you later so you still get a chance to do other stuff. Isn't it? 07:20:43 idea: a command line sudoku game which sits in the login shell of the user `doku` so that `su doku` runs it 07:20:56 (credit goes to quintopia) 07:24:53 Ah, OK, do that 07:40:28 I have made up several more Magic: the Gathering cards as well as a new puzzle. 07:52:42 You can use " dd cbs=1 conv=unblock 2> /dev/null | tr \\n +" instead of "utftovlq 8w | tr \\0 +" 07:56:37 <^v> :( i feel like every time i join a community there is nobody on my skill level 08:54:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 09:08:12 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 09:12:35 -!- Welo has joined. 09:33:29 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:40:53 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:47:26 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:49:32 -!- Guest74908 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:18:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:23:16 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 10:41:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:58:31 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:58:52 -!- lleu has joined. 11:58:52 -!- lleu has quit (Changing host). 11:58:52 -!- lleu has joined. 12:09:11 -!- lleu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:27:06 -!- Welo has joined. 12:38:29 -!- TieSoul has joined. 12:48:51 my mobile phone is like an old video game. there's a menu where if I enter the menu and start scrolling it rightaway, it scrolls slow, but if I instead wait a few deciseconds and then start scrolling, it scrolls much faster, so the latter is faster if I want to move enough. 13:25:07 [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45783&oldid=45782 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Fibonacci sequence */ 13:39:28 wow, that was quick. 13:39:36 I wonder what I messed up 14:03:42 -!- boily has joined. 14:04:57 @massages-loud 14:04:57 oerjan asked 23h 30m 49s ago: Never! 14:30:21 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:32:50 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:33:07 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:41:43 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:43:24 <\oren\> b_hello_jonas! 14:43:28 -!- FreeFull has joined. 14:44:07 helloren 14:44:29 <\oren\> I added 龍根案梅械植業極様標横橋機残殺毒波泣注泳 14:44:30 <\oren\> 洋流浅浴消深清灯然焼照熱 14:44:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:45:43 bohily 14:45:51 \oren\: can't watch now, I'm busy doing real life stuff 14:46:10 hellørjan, b_jhellonas, he\\oren\! 14:46:29 \oren\: progressing through the kyōiku? 14:46:29 also mesing up my computer and stuff like that 14:46:37 computers are real life. 14:46:52 <\oren\> boily: eaxcty 15:05:24 working on the contour extraction, for the preparation of the real font 15:05:44 frankly speaking that's annoying than drawing glyphs :S 15:07:37 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:08:35 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:08:42 Heverywellone. 15:09:28 So I'm calling my language Quendle for the time being. 15:09:35 tswelcomett 15:09:57 Yørjan. 15:19:49 -!- andrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:24:03 <\oren\> I hate printers 15:47:47 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 15:48:11 -!- Sprocklem has changed nick to Guest81266. 15:51:21 \oren\: have you anointed your printer with the blood of your enemies? filled its ink cartridges with dark ichor from abyssal depths? turned it off and on again? 15:57:41 <\oren\> I took out the ink and did the ink shaking dance, that got it working 15:58:32 :D 15:59:22 did you use a pentagram for dancing in 16:00:22 hm poisonous ink... 16:00:58 boily: now i'm imagining tech support for supervillains 16:01:53 a pentagram with candles, and an altar stained with the blood of previous sacrifices? 16:02:51 now i'm disappointed by a lack of youtube hits 16:05:33 slightly encouraged by getting this hit from "necromancer tech support" http://necrodancer.com/faq.php 16:11:23 <\oren\> 龍根案梅械植業極様標横橋機残殺毒波泣注泳 16:12:07 <\oren\> stupid cut buffer 16:19:24 -!- ocharles__ has quit (Read error: Network is unreachable). 16:20:04 -!- ocharles__ has joined. 16:25:28 -!- TieSoul_ has joined. 16:28:07 -!- TieSoul has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:42:14 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:43:24 happy saturday boily 16:51:47 why doesnt http://esolangs.org/wiki/MATL show up on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Golfing_language ? Neither does Seriously. 16:52:53 maybe it's that old caching bug 16:53:49 both show up for me. 16:54:03 well on https, and i'm logged in. 16:54:07 hm... 16:54:50 Shows up logged in over http and https 16:54:58 Doesn't show up logged out on either 16:55:05 huh i see 11 when logged in, but only 5 without 16:56:20 [wiki] [[Category:Golfing language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45784&oldid=44566 * Oerjan * (+1) ye olde caching bug workaround 16:56:39 yep, try now 16:57:17 mind you, it might be the same with severals categories 16:57:20 *-s 17:07:14 ah. do anonymous users get cached versions? 17:07:22 yep 17:08:02 and there is/was a bug for Categories where they don't get recached unless you edit the category page itself 17:08:30 ...i suppose it must still be there, since those languages are new 17:09:15 @ask fizzie any idea how to fix the category caching bug on the wiki? see logs. 17:09:15 Consider it noted. 17:14:51 quinsatopiarday! 17:21:27 > showHex 86400 "" 17:21:30 "15180" 17:29:53 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: Alas.). 17:30:43 -!- shikhin has joined. 17:33:59 -!- jaboja64 has joined. 17:37:11 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:37:59 -!- jaboja64 has changed nick to jaboja. 17:42:19 -!- aretecode has joined. 17:56:40 -!- MoALTz has joined. 17:58:07 oerjan: No idea. Is this some sort of a know MediaWiki thing? 17:58:30 maybe. 17:58:50 I've been a bit lax in updating the soft ware, but I'll get to that one of these days. 17:59:48 spoken like a true sysadmin. 18:00:23 oerjan: québécois word of the day: "amodné" (subjective spelling). 18:00:47 Yeah, based on some quick browsing, it sounds like it's our use of $wgUseFileCache = true; which is self-admittedly "simplistic". 18:03:49 Or at least could be. The documentation says special pages aren't cached, but maybe categories aren't special. 18:09:26 I didn't find any caches on the server, though. 18:09:40 (Other than some js/css stuff.) 18:09:53 boily: is that pronounced something like /amodne/? 18:10:16 we've discussed this bug before, maybe ais523 remembers something. 18:11:34 from https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Category#Adding_a_category_by_using_a_template "When you edit an article to add a category tag directly, the list of category members is updated immediately when the page is saved." 18:11:46 so it's clearly not _supposed_ to work this way in general. 18:11:48 Oh, there they are. 18:13:11 cache/4/44/Category%3AGolfing_language.html says "This page was last modified on 5 December 2015, at 16:55" and "The following 11 pages are in this category, out of 11 total." 18:13:14 So that's up to date. 18:13:47 boily: what does that mean? 18:13:59 Unless you/someone did something manual to make it refresh. 18:14:25 Any other examples of stale categories I could check for in the file cache? 18:15:10 olsner: past participle of "amodner". 18:15:37 fizzie: yes, i used a "null edit" on that particular page. 18:16:04 although it is possible that a Purge would have been enough, if i had remembered it. 18:17:06 cache/e/ea/Category%3AStack-based.html doesn't contain MATL, and says "This page was last modified on 13 February 2006, at 14:44." 18:17:07 fizzie: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Stack-based 18:17:16 Got there a bit ahead of you. 18:17:23 bah 18:17:53 Yeah, it seems like it's quite wrong. Incidentally, how stale is it -- how many entries there are logged in? 18:18:07 (171 in the cached one.) 18:18:41 oh, there's even a comment 18:19:32 that recently? then it must occasionally get cached... 18:19:36 *recached 18:19:41 without an edit. 18:20:16 I think it's supposed to work; there's some stuff about invalidation in the docs. 18:20:24 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual_talk:File_cache#category_pages_in_cache_do_not_get_updated -- but other people have had problems with it. 18:20:50 aha 18:20:56 -!- TieSoul_ has changed nick to TieSoul. 18:21:01 There's a &action=purge workaround mentioned, but not whether it's fixed in some version. 18:21:17 tswett: close, but very not quite :D 18:21:33 Both linked-to bug reports are still open. 18:22:03 aww 18:22:04 olsner: a butchered conflagration of "à un moment donné": "at a given moment". figuratively "eventually", probably close to inch'allah. 18:22:32 Well, one was closed as a dupe of the first one. 18:24:06 @metar MATL 18:24:06 No result. 18:25:16 @metar EGLL 18:25:17 EGLL 051820Z AUTO 22017KT 9999 BKN023 13/08 Q1016 NOSIG 18:25:26 It's so bizarre, 13 degrees in December. 18:26:51 @metar LOWI 18:26:51 LOWI 051820Z VRB01KT CAVOK 01/M01 Q1032 NOSIG 18:26:52 disgusting! 18:26:58 fizzie: that's outrageous! 18:27:01 I don't know what you're talking about. 18:27:01 @metar CYUL 18:27:01 CYUL 051800Z 24016KT 15SM OVC023 06/01 A3061 RMK SC8 SLP366 18:27:19 -!- bb010g has joined. 18:30:10 fizzie: i see some mention of simply deleting the cached category files 18:31:54 -!- flaw600 has joined. 18:32:27 hello all. I'm trying to shorten the following brainfuck code and was wondering if there was a way to do it 18:32:32 ++++++++[>++++>++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++<<<<<<-] 18:33:04 was that made by bf_txtgen 18:34:27 no. myself 18:35:25 oerjan: Yeah, I assume I could do that every now and then as a crummy workaround. 18:36:20 oh sorry, wasn't meant for me 18:36:30 flaw600: yes it was 18:36:46 it looks very much similar to what bf_txtgen puts at the beginning 18:36:56 !bf_txtgen Hello, world! 18:36:58 oh? then no, it wasn't made by a textgen. By me 18:37:06 125 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [836] 18:37:54 I mean. I studied Wikipedia's Hello World and based it off of that so the general idea's the same but it was by me 18:38:02 > 8*length"+++++++++++++++" 18:38:04 120 18:38:57 flaw600: o hai! you should use multiplication tables. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants 18:39:46 boily: i don't think that's going to be shorter for initializing several cells 18:40:09 hmmm... something like >++++>++++++>++>+>+>+[[<+>>++++++++<-]<]> ? 18:40:42 I think that's an infinite loop 18:41:19 flaw600: you could try experimenting with making the initial ++++++++ a different length (say twice as long). although int-e looks like he has a smarter idea. 18:41:20 Depending on how exactly it needs to be equivalent, a nested ++++++++++[->+>+>+>+<<<<-]>++>+++>++++>+++++ replacing some of ++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++<<<< might be worth it. 18:41:22 boily: I think it'd be longer to use that for initializing several cells, but thanks :) 18:41:41 If you don't mind a gap. 18:41:45 Foodtime. -> 18:41:52 thanks fizzie 18:42:28 as far as equivalencies go, I just need the contents of the cells to be the same, but the actual position doesn't need to be fixed 18:45:33 the idea is that I'd need 8*4, 8*10, and then 8*12...8*15. The order in which those appear is not as important to me 18:46:34 > chr 80 18:46:35 'P' 18:48:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:49:07 right, i think int-e is on the right track 18:49:21 int-e? 18:49:36

hmmm... something like >++++>++++++>++>+>+>+[[<+>>++++++++<-]<]> ? 18:49:42 -!- Lorenzo64 has joined. 18:50:21 the sun is up. time to sleep. 18:50:26 night boily 18:50:49 ^bf >++++>++++++>++>+>+>+[[<+>>++++++++<-]<]>[.>] 18:50:50 NO 18:50:52 >>++++>++++++>++>+>+>+>+[<]>>[<[>+<<++++++++>-]>>]<<<[<] actually produces the right numbers, but the [<] in there are silly. 18:50:54 ...out of time! 18:50:57 quinthellopia. no? 18:51:06 did you stay up all night without me? 18:51:55 nope. I slept a full 8 hours as usual. but I need a nap :) 18:52:05 int-e: well he said he didn't mind the order, so you could reverse them 18:52:14 you do a very good job of leaving when i get here EVERY DAMN DAY 18:52:21 GOOD NIGHT 18:52:29 I'LL BE BACH. 18:52:31 K 18:52:39 I mean I like the order as is since it's in my order anyway, but yeah, the order itself itself isn't as important. thanks int-e :) 18:52:41 -!- boily has quit (Quit: VASCULAR CHICKEN). 18:53:16 >+>+>+>+>++>++++++>++++<[>[<+>>++++++++<-]<<]>>> produces the same numbers in reverse order and places the pointer on the 8*15 18:53:38 it's been a long time since this channel was BFgolf 18:54:42 there's a really good program for producing fairly short versions of various strings (not perfect, but better than bf_txtgen in most cases) 18:54:49 * oerjan has a hunch flaw600 might want to start on the 8*10 18:55:35 yeah I do actually, thanks oerjan. But thanks you two. I was trying to get something like that (the >+>+>+ thing) but I'm new to bf so I couldn't figure it out 18:55:59 thanks int-e :) 18:56:07 well int-e did most of the thinking because i'm too lazy :) 18:56:36 what is the sequence of numbers? 18:56:47 (sorry i'm too lazy to multiply) 18:56:52 quintopia: there's a program? I haven't seen one that bests what I'd written in terms of code length. Would you mind linking me? That said, I like doing stuff outside of generators cause it helps me learn 18:57:15 quintopia: 32, 80, 96, 104, 112, 120 18:57:17 @ask But will you be J.S. or P.D.Q.? 18:57:17 Consider it noted. 18:57:24 @ask boily But will you be J.S. or P.D.Q.? 18:57:25 Consider it noted. 18:57:25 > map (chr . (8*)) [4,10,12,13,14,15] 18:57:27 " P`hpx" 18:57:34 that 18:57:35 yeah 18:57:40 <3 Peter Schickele 19:00:15 flaw600: http://www.49-6-dev.net/downloads/bfcompopowpit.zip 19:00:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 19:02:11 cool thanks. What I'm trying to print out is "This language is easy!!!" but I'm trying to do it w/o a generator b/c a) I haven't seen one that bests 206 (well, now 171) and two, I'm trying to learn and imo it's hard to understand something you didn't write yourself 19:02:36 thanks int-e for the help :) 19:04:50 well that file apparently doesn't open? 19:05:34 hm? 19:05:45 like it's a corrupted file? 19:07:21 -!- ^v has joined. 19:13:35 at any rate, I really appreciate the help all. At the very least, it's helped me understand pointers a lot better (you all and brainfuck in general) 19:17:45 -!- TieSoul has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:27:04 ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>[>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++<<<<-]>++++.>++++++++.+.>+++.>.<-------.<--------.>++.<++++++.>+++++++.<------.++++++.--.>>.<<++++.>--.>.<<----.----.>.++++++.>+... 19:27:05 This language is easy!!! 19:31:14 (lucky me, that's 170 characters) 19:32:03 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:33:39 what'd you do that with? yourself or a generator? 19:33:45 myself 19:33:50 cool 19:33:55 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:34:15 mine is now: 19:34:16 >>++++>++++++>++>+>+>+>+[<]>>[<[>+<<++++++++>-]>>]<<<[<]>>++++.>>.+.>+++.<<<<.>>>+++.<+.>++.<++++++.>>++.<<------.++++++.--.<<.>>++++.>>--.<<<<.>>----.----.>>.>+.<<<<<+... 19:34:32 (with the idea that perhaps 6 cells are too many) 19:34:47 oh idc about performance 19:34:58 ^bf >>++++>++++++>++>+>+>+>+[<]>>[<[>+<<++++++++>-]>>]<<<[<]>>++++.>>.+.>+++.<<<<.>>>+++.<+.>++.<++++++.>>++.<<------.++++++.--.<<.>>++++.>>--.<<<<.>>----.----.>>.>+.<<<<<+... 19:34:58 This language is easy!!! 19:35:46 There's a trade-off: Using more cells means larger initialization code and more characters used for traveling (< and >)... it's not clear what the best choice is. 19:35:57 that's true 19:36:20 but given the 1 char diff idrc. thanks though :) 19:36:36 it looks like our code is fairly similar apart from the table initialization 19:37:17 sure. there's not much room for using loops here 19:37:25 indeed 19:38:33 ah so you did 16 instead of 8? 19:39:40 right, that's another trade-off. 19:40:11 (worse granularity, but fewer pluses inside the second loop) 19:40:19 yeah. more plusses and minuses when getting to the right ASCII character right? 19:40:27 exactly 19:41:46 ^bf +[>+<+++]>. 19:41:46 U 19:42:06 there's some more tricks like this that one could try (relying on overflow) 19:42:07 It's kind of ironic for BF to teach pointers, seeing as how it doesn't have any. 19:43:48 tswett: it doesn't but it explains the concept to me better than a c/C++ class/book 19:44:02 * tswett nods. 19:44:26 the program i linked (if it can be made to unzip and run) basically optimizes over number of cells and difference between cells to see which one gives the shortest source 19:45:02 quintopia: cool. I'll take a look at some point, but I wanna feel some pride in my code this time around :p 19:45:23 hello world is basic but teaches a lot :p 19:46:23 tswett: ironically code.sh uses 'pointers' :p 19:46:30 "I wanted to write a hello world program with fewer than 300 characters so I had to learn about loops..." 19:46:50 yeah. lol 19:47:06 Hey, which 10-character brainfuck program runs . the greatest number of times? 19:47:10 not my fault that bf is ultra verbose 19:47:11 :p 19:47:31 Assume there are infinitely many cells, each holds a byte, you can't input, and going to the left of the initial cell causes the program to stab you in the face. 19:47:48 unless you want to copy input to output: ,[.,] is hard to beat 19:48:09 By "unless" do you mean "if"? 19:48:47 I don't think so; I was refering to "bf is ultra verbose" 19:49:12 *referring 19:49:19 int-e: I meant compared to higher level languages 19:49:31 hello world is a lot shorter in HLLs 19:50:07 but admitedly, BF isn't always verobse 19:51:03 Ah. 19:51:11 There's this cute Haskell program: 19:51:14 main=interact id 19:52:19 `run echo '#!/bin/rm' > bin/you-can-only-run-this-once 19:52:25 `run chmod +x bin/you-can-only-run-this-once 19:52:27 No output. 19:52:29 No output. 19:52:51 `` chmod -w bin/you-can-only-run-this-once 19:52:52 No output. 19:53:02 Oh crap. 19:53:20 `run echo '#!/bin/rm -f' > bin/you-can-only-run-this-once 19:53:21 bash: bin/you-can-only-run-this-once: Permission denied 19:53:29 Mmm right. 19:53:29 hehe 19:54:46 tswett: also, what about symlinking the program? 19:55:03 I don't actually know what that does. 19:55:18 `run echo '#!/bin/echo' > bin/echo-this 19:55:21 No output. 19:55:28 `run ln -s echo-this bin/echo-that 19:55:31 No output. 19:55:32 `echo-this 19:55:33 /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/echo-this: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/echo-this: cannot execute: Permission denied 19:55:40 `run chmod +x bin/echo-this 19:55:41 can someone explain symlinking? I've never understood that really beyond how TM uses it 19:55:43 No output. 19:55:44 `echo-this 19:55:45 /hackenv/bin/echo-this 19:55:47 `echo-that 19:55:48 /hackenv/bin/echo-that 19:56:46 flaw600: well, a symbolic link is pretty much just a text file containing a filename. The special thing about it is that when you ask Linux to open up a symbolic link, it will generally pretend you asked it to open up the target file instead. 19:56:58 flaw600: I don't get the question. "symlink" is a contraction of "symbolic link", which is a reference on a file system to another file (or directory) by name. 19:57:09 tswett: ah ok. thanks :) 19:57:12 (I didn't get the TM there) 19:57:34 int-e: Time Machine. I know that's how TM saves backup space but I didn't really understand how it worked 19:57:47 So, I just told Linux to run /hackenv/bin/echo-that. Linux then saw that /hackenv/bin/echo-that is a symbolic link file containing the filename "echo-this", so it then ran /hackenv/bin/echo-this instead. 19:58:03 tswett: ah, kk. thanks :) 20:00:24 -!- Newyorkadam has joined. 20:03:59 -!- Newyorkadam has quit (Client Quit). 20:06:16 -!- flaw600 has left. 20:09:03 Symbolic links: not very similar to pointers! 20:09:21 I mean, the concept is similar, but the behavior isn't. 20:10:57 there's a funny analogy there... where mounting file systems becomes page table manipulation... 20:11:11 :D: 20:11:47 -!- BloodGod has joined. 20:22:25 -!- BloodGod has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:23:11 -!- BloodGod has joined. 20:43:07 `run rm bin/echo-th{is,at} 20:43:11