←2015-12-26 2015-12-27 2015-12-28→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:11:58 -!- zgrep_ has joined.
00:12:23 -!- augur_ has joined.
00:12:26 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
00:12:28 -!- Deewiant_ has joined.
00:12:47 <zzo38> Is the people who invented TECO Unitarian Universalist?
00:13:09 -!- Warrigal has joined.
00:13:26 -!- nisstyre_ has joined.
00:15:36 -!- yule has joined.
00:16:09 -!- yule has left.
00:18:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:18:58 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:18:58 -!- zgrep has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:18:58 -!- nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:18:58 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:18:58 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:18:58 -!- digitalcold has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:19:37 -!- zgrep_ has changed nick to zgrep.
00:23:45 -!- digitalcold has joined.
00:38:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:44:58 <zzo38> `danddreclist 73
00:45:09 <HackEgo> danddreclist 73: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
00:46:53 <shachaf> mauris: Do you want to s/nooodl/mauris/ danddreclist?
00:47:21 <mauris> you can s/nooodl // it, hth
00:47:30 <shachaf> you can do it yourself hth
00:47:49 <shachaf> g/nooodl/d
00:50:16 <zzo38> Yes, you could edit it by yourself instead according to how you would want your name in there or not, but the URL and filename should not be adjusted because the current one is correct.
00:54:28 <zzo38> I also want to know in case you would know even, or someone else, comparing character in the level20.tex (including the one with no character sheet given) with colors of mana of Magic: the Gathering cards. Do you know?
00:56:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:56:40 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:02:21 <izabera> https://www.joyent.com/ someone explain me why both bare metal and vm score 1/4 on networking but triton scores 1
01:02:27 <izabera> why does that make sense
01:04:27 -!- Vrittis has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
01:09:58 <izabera> they're explaining it but that table is totally misleading <.<
02:09:15 -!- Tat-Tvam-Asi has joined.
02:22:13 -!- Frooxius has joined.
02:29:56 <Sgeo> "I try never to underestimate the pathological nature of C/C++. Then again, this particular case might be because I spent so long dealing with bools that were four bytes. Or two bytes and stored as 0 / !0 rather than 0 / 1."
02:36:45 -!- jaboja has joined.
02:37:32 -!- boily has joined.
02:44:30 <boily> `wisdom
02:44:31 <HackEgo> atm/An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will steal your relevant info.
03:00:48 -!- jaboja64 has joined.
03:04:29 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:17:51 -!- Patashu has joined.
03:21:46 -!- Tat-Tvam-Asi has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
03:30:38 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
03:30:44 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: I think I'll implement an online semi-automated Nomic based on your "Propositional Nomic"
03:40:48 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
03:43:10 -!- jaboja64 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:46:02 <boily> `wisdom
03:46:03 <HackEgo> ocean/The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. The Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping.
03:46:20 -!- boily has quit (Quit: TRANSMORPHIC CHICKEN).
03:47:28 -!- andrew has joined.
04:10:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:23:40 -!- nitrixmas has changed nick to nitrix.
04:28:05 -!- dcentral has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:39:25 -!- dcentral has joined.
06:03:30 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
06:15:09 -!- mauris has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:42:15 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:43:40 -!- Patashu has joined.
06:45:14 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
06:45:18 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh
06:45:24 <hppavilion[1]> I can't get PLY to work with unicode
06:55:55 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
06:56:09 -!- Patashu has joined.
07:21:18 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
07:22:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:22:08 -!- Patashu has joined.
08:27:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
09:09:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
09:21:55 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: Leaving).
09:36:20 -!- MoALTz_ has changed nick to MoALTz.
10:08:44 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
10:19:00 -!- shachaf has joined.
10:38:30 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:46:12 -!- Welo has joined.
11:46:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:30:08 <Sgeo> Did I mention Robozzle has a JS version now?
12:30:13 <Sgeo> That's likely to become the main version?
12:30:19 <Sgeo> http://www.robozzle.com/beta/
12:36:35 -!- shachaf has joined.
12:41:29 <Taneb> Ooooh
12:44:25 <myname> doesn't it have a js version like years?
12:50:36 <Sgeo> myname, a terrible one
12:50:53 <myname> it doas work
12:51:10 <myname> imho, js implies terrible
12:52:11 -!- sat-buddhi has joined.
12:56:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagony]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46000 * Flawr * (+656) Created page with "'''Javagony''' is an OOP programming language derived from Java. The only differences to Java are that following statements are ''not'' available in Javagony: for (){} if (..."
13:00:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46001&oldid=46000 * Flawr * (+364)
13:02:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46002&oldid=46001 * Flawr * (+1)
13:02:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46003&oldid=46002 * Flawr * (+3)
13:04:55 -!- zgrep has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:05:43 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:05:59 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
13:06:17 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
13:12:16 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
13:14:54 -!- andrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:35:12 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> fungot: write is a function of one argument. what's a tlo? a Three Letter Optimisation? death is too much tourtière. <-- actually death is having to fix wikipedia and wiktionary's inconsistent etymologies of tourtière hth
13:35:12 <fungot> oerjan: where should i put there :) i want the standard i/ o
13:35:13 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
13:36:24 * oerjan is slightly disturbed that there are edits to his wiktionary account that he cannot understand how he has made
13:37:07 <oerjan> i think the merging of global accounts went slightly wrong, and _also_ something fishy happened back in 2007.
13:38:24 <oerjan> @tell boily also death is having to paste è because his keyboard refuses to recognize the obvious keypresses
13:38:25 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
13:38:36 <oerjan> @tell boily *my
13:38:37 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
13:38:55 -!- TieSoul has joined.
13:39:57 <oerjan> on the bright side, if there _was_ another wikt:user:oerjan back in 2007, he's not done anything since.
13:42:44 <oerjan> @tell boily oh wait, i was pressing the wrong key
13:42:44 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
13:43:15 <oerjan> @tell boily still doesn't work in the browser, though.
13:43:15 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
13:44:35 <oerjan> @ask boily what does (tsé.) mean
13:44:35 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
13:48:15 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:03:14 -!- zgrep has joined.
14:03:57 -!- SirCmpwn has joined.
14:08:15 -!- zgrep has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:09:40 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:13:44 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:17:16 -!- mauris has joined.
14:19:06 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:20:13 <izabera> how do i check if a function supports a flag that's only available in a few versions of linux?
14:33:14 <ais523> izabera: is the function a system call? most will return EINVAL if they don't understand an argument
14:33:18 <ais523> so you could try it and see what happens
14:33:34 <izabera> oh thanks!
14:34:00 <b_jonas> ohai
14:34:12 <ais523> (there's also ENOSYS, for when it's the function itself that isn't understood)
14:34:24 <ais523> (this generally only happens if running very new syscalls)
14:34:26 <ais523> hi b_jonas
14:38:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
14:47:18 -!- zgrep has joined.
14:52:06 -!- SirCmpwn has joined.
14:53:27 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.).
14:59:01 -!- sat-buddhi has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
15:02:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:19:20 <ais523> ooh, Perl 6 has been released
15:19:42 <ais523> given that NetHack 3.6.0 and Duke Nukem Forever were also released recentlyish
15:19:51 <ais523> this means that we're going to need a new metaphor for vaporware
15:20:21 <APic> B-)
15:20:23 <APic> True
15:21:45 * APic wonders whether GNU/Hurd will become stable soon too ;)
15:21:49 -!- sebbu has joined.
15:22:19 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, though "vaporware" is still fine as a name.
15:22:42 <b_jonas> I use "cbvapor" as the codename for my eventual rewrite of the cbstream bot.
15:22:49 <ais523> GNU/Hurd does actually work IIRC, if you have a sufficiently specific configuration
15:23:05 <APic> Good to know.
15:23:13 <b_jonas> Oh, and wait, gimp has a development release from the new branch, have you seen that?
15:23:22 <b_jonas> So we're in the future or an alternate timeline or something
15:23:38 <b_jonas> Inkscape has released a stable release recently.
15:23:54 -!- amca has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:24:30 <ais523> I don't use gimp or inkscape a whole lot, not because they're bad, just because I haven't needed to
15:24:32 <b_jonas> Oh, and ImageMagick is seriously working on a new branch where they have impossible goals, even more impossible than gimp.
15:24:43 <b_jonas> I don't use inkscape, but I do use gimp sometimes.
15:24:43 <ais523> actually what I mostly use gimp for is filling in PDFs by adding text to them
15:24:47 <ais523> but its UI for that is terrible :-(
15:25:05 <b_jonas> ais523: have you tried upgrading to a newer version? the UI sometimes becomes better, and sometimes worse.
15:25:21 <b_jonas> I don't find the gimp ui terrible, only hard to learn, but I'm past the hard to learn part.
15:25:22 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm using the Ubuntu package manager's version
15:26:07 <b_jonas> I tried to download an English manual for my washing machine from LG's homepage and failed. But I realized I have a printed English manual, I just didn't find it last time, which is why I read the Hungarian.
15:26:26 <ais523> b_jonas: presumably the problem is that the Hungarian is badly translated?
15:26:34 <b_jonas> But it still hurts how difficult it is sometimes to get manuals even for not too old household appliances.
15:26:50 <b_jonas> ais523: that's my default assumption. this one isn't even _too_ bad, compared to some others.
15:27:01 <b_jonas> It did have some mistakes, but was mostly readable.
15:27:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
15:27:53 <b_jonas> I mean, it claimed that the floor should not be slanted to more than some impossibly small angle, but that was obviously a mistake, they wanted to say that you should adjust the adjustable feet so that the machine isn't slanted more than tha.
15:28:24 <b_jonas> I'm looking at the English manual now to see what it says.
15:29:03 <b_jonas> Mind you, sometimes the English manual is badly translated too, written by Chinese people who don't speak enough English,
15:29:21 <b_jonas> but the English manuals or software UIs are never worse than the Hungarian ones as far as I've seen.
15:30:24 <b_jonas> Hmm. The English manual also says “Installation place requirement. Level floor : Allowable slope under entire washer is 1°”
15:30:42 <b_jonas> That's obviously unsatisfiable in a bathroom.
15:30:53 <b_jonas> And the manual does talk about the adjustable legs.
15:31:54 <b_jonas> yep, “adjustable feet” here
15:32:30 <b_jonas> I guess this is one of those statements they put in so that they can deny acting on the warranty if they feel like it.
15:34:48 <fizzie> Sometimes bathrooms have level raised pedestal-type things for washers.
15:35:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, sometimes. That's necessary on some floors.
15:35:53 <fizzie> I adjusted and re-adjusted and so on the legs for the washer we had in Finland, but it still kept moving around when doing the spin cycles.
15:35:56 <b_jonas> http://www.lg.com/hu/termektamogatas/lg-F12B8ND1 has a link to manuals, but they're broken.
15:36:41 <fizzie> Apparently no matter how level the machine itself was, having a slope + vibration + slippery tiles was enough to have it start moving.
15:37:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, and a pedestal helps because you can fix the machine on it easier than on the floor itself.
15:37:17 <b_jonas> but that depends on the machine and possibly other things.
15:37:28 <b_jonas> Some older washing machines shake a lot.
15:38:14 <b_jonas> Anyway, now I know which program I need for synthetic clothes, so I'm off getting the curtains down the rods and washing them.
15:38:17 <fizzie> LG's washers have that fancy thing where you can call the support, hold the phone near the washer, press a button combination on it and have it whistle diagnostic information with modulated tunes over the phone.
15:39:19 <ais523> fizzie: that reminds me of the GRUB2 option to output all text it prints through the PC speakers as morse code
15:39:39 <fizzie> Also an app that can listen to it and suggest simple solutions.
15:40:05 <fizzie> I wonder if someone's reverse-engineered the protocol already.
15:42:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, some of them
15:42:37 <b_jonas> this one has that option too
15:42:52 <b_jonas> basically a one-way modem in it
15:43:17 <ais523> b_jonas: that's just a modulator
15:43:18 <b_jonas> using probably the same speaker it uses to beep when the washing is complete
15:43:25 <ais523> ("modem" is short for "modulator-demodulator")
15:43:40 <fizzie> So, a "mom"?
15:43:56 <b_jonas> it's probably implemented mostly in software these days
15:44:01 <fizzie> "My washer has a mom in it" can lead to incorrect interpretations.
15:44:08 <b_jonas> ouch
15:44:45 <ais523> fizzie: just "mo" I guess, I think the final "m" of "modem" comes from the third letter of "demodulator"
15:44:52 <fizzie> Oh, right.
15:45:15 <b_jonas> It also has a four digit display, but they don't trust me of being able to read and type a few dozen digits from the screen to the web probably.
15:45:27 <b_jonas> I'm not really the target user for this type of washing machine.
15:45:49 <b_jonas> Or at least for some features of it.
15:45:56 <b_jonas> I mean, it has programs I'll probably never use.
15:46:53 <fizzie> You've got to have that product differentiation somehow, and it's easy to do with programs.
15:47:01 <fizzie> Also, spin RPM numbers.
15:47:38 -!- boily has joined.
15:48:06 <fizzie> Washer A with 15 programs and 1500 RPM is objectively better than washer B with 12 programs and 1400 RPM by 3 programs and 100 RPMs.
15:48:27 <b_jonas> Yeah.
15:48:53 <b_jonas> Oh, I think it was the dishwasher for which I don't have an English manual.
15:49:15 <b_jonas> But that one isn't too important. The dishwasher barely needs a manual, once it's set up for the water hardness.
15:50:00 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:50:45 <boily> I wish I had a dishwasher. I'm a dishwisher.
15:50:52 <boily> @massages-loud
15:50:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 15m 39s ago: <boily> fungot: write is a function of one argument. what's a tlo? a Three Letter Optimisation? death is too much tourtière. <-- actually death is having to fix wikipedia and wiktionary's inconsistent etymologies of tourtière hth
15:50:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 12m 27s ago: also death is having to paste è because his keyboard refuses to recognize the obvious keypresses
15:50:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 12m 15s ago: *my
15:50:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 8m 7s ago: oh wait, i was pressing the wrong key
15:50:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 7m 36s ago: still doesn't work in the browser, though.
15:50:54 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 2h 6m 16s ago: what does (tsé.) mean
15:51:56 <boily> @tell oerjan qc:tsé is about en:y'know.
15:51:57 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:55:30 <b_jonas> Ok, I started the confusingly named program.
15:57:52 <boily> b_jhellonas. still adapting the new house to your needs?
15:58:03 <ais523> oh, I didn't realise b_jonas had a new house
16:01:33 <b_jonas> It's an apartment, not a whole house.
16:01:35 <b_jonas> boily: yes, thank you
16:03:18 <b_jonas> I have to call two different servicemen tomorrow to schedule some minor repairs that weren't so urgent that I call them at Christmas or weekend,
16:03:51 <b_jonas> plus a third minor repair I'll be able to do myself but I have to buy some screw ring thingy for it.
16:04:45 <b_jonas> My general enjoying the house was paused for Christmas due to family programs.
16:04:51 <b_jonas> But I'm home now at least.
16:08:11 <boily> you have family programs on your dishwasher? neat.
16:08:19 <b_jonas> No, not dishwasher.
16:08:57 <b_jonas> If only travel was so easy. A family meeting involves airplane and car rides.
16:09:15 <ais523> international or within the country?
16:09:20 <b_jonas> International.
16:09:43 <b_jonas> (There's almost no airplane traffic within Hungary.)
16:09:50 <b_jonas> Car trips within the country.
16:10:37 <b_jonas> My brother and her wife lives in Sweden on a permanent basis, but they visit often, and so far have visited on each Christmas.
16:11:02 <b_jonas> I'm still afraid to imagine what Christmas would be like when they are unable to visit.
16:11:16 <b_jonas> But it will certainly happen eventually.
16:11:32 <Taneb> b_jonas, that's similar for my dad's family, because for some reason he decided to move to England in the 90s
16:11:37 <Taneb> From Australia
16:11:46 <b_jonas> That's worse.
16:12:03 -!- heroux has joined.
16:12:16 <b_jonas> You can at least drive from Sweden, with two drivers alternating and one sleep in between.
16:13:04 <b_jonas> Airplane is cheaper and faster, but driving gets you to transfer a car and optionally a lots of luggage.
16:13:46 <Taneb> Yeah, one of my cousins is trying to move here as well
16:14:41 <b_jonas> I hear there are some other ways to transfer lots of personal belongings long distance, involving some sort of container or ship, but they're worth only if you move with a whole family to Israel or some such cases.
16:15:18 <Taneb> Yeah, that's what we did when we lived in Australia for a year
16:15:24 <b_jonas> Technically, there are also trains to Sweden, but they're horribly expensive for some reason.
16:15:49 <Taneb> Because they go through russia?
16:16:03 <b_jonas> Taneb: no, there's a bridge from Denmark now
16:16:08 <b_jonas> or are there no trains there?
16:16:21 <Taneb> I know there's a road bridge
16:16:27 <b_jonas> hmm, let me check
16:16:33 <Taneb> Ooh, yeah, it has railway as well
16:16:36 <Taneb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98resund_Bridge
16:16:44 <b_jonas> But even without, you can switch from train to the ferry.
16:16:52 <b_jonas> You have to switch trains multiple times anyway.
16:18:14 <ais523> trains are ridiculously expensive even within England where there's no borders to worry about
16:18:28 <b_jonas> Anyway, trains are a comfortable way to travel to Italy, Slovenian, Macedonia, Bulgaria, though bus is also available and cheaper but much less comfy; and I hear trains are even a borderline viable option to Switzerland.
16:18:49 <ais523> there's one journey I've been thinking about that costs £90 by train but only about £10 by coach going in one direction (but £40 by coach going in the other direction)
16:19:03 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, that's the other thing, for some reason international trains are much more expensive than trains within Hungary.
16:19:09 <b_jonas> And trains within Hungary aren't cheap either.
16:19:30 <ais523> it's partly to do with zone boundaries or something like that I think
16:19:41 <Taneb> I'm thinking of going interrailing next autumn
16:19:42 <ais523> I can spend £6.40 to get a card that allows me to use any public transport in the West Midlands for one day
16:19:47 <ais523> which kind-of puts a cap on the train prices
16:19:58 <ais523> go even slightly outside the West Midlands and the prices are a lot worse
16:20:04 <b_jonas> Trains here are so expensive that if you have more than one full price adult traveling, and it's not all within Budapest or agglomeration, then driving a car is always a much better option than trains or buses.
16:20:12 <b_jonas> It's just horrible.
16:20:16 <b_jonas> I wish trains and buses were cheaper.
16:20:59 <ais523> I used a bus to get into work today
16:21:02 -!- TodPunk has joined.
16:21:13 <ais523> actually the way train and bus pricing works in the UK is weird
16:21:22 <ais523> for the buses, a day ticket usually costs less than two singles
16:21:39 <ais523> meaning that day tickets are purchased almost exclusively unless you're only going in one direction for some reason
16:21:48 <ais523> meanwhile, on the trains, most discounts only apply to return tickets
16:22:18 <ais523> meaning that if you're doing a journey for which discounts apply, which is most of them, returns are /much/ better value than singles, and sometimes actually cheaper (i.e. to do a single journey you buy a return ticket and then don't use one half)
16:22:29 <b_jonas> Oh, and it's so expensive that some physically handicapped people earn some money from having people hire them to travel with them, who then illegally buy reduced fare tickets for serving as a person accompanying the disabled person (who doesn't actually need this).
16:22:59 <Taneb> ais523, I just generally book in advance and hope
16:23:21 <ais523> day tickets on the bus in the West Midlands are currently £4 per day if you buy them in bulk (i.e. you have to buy them in advance but they aren't marked against any particular day)
16:23:45 <ais523> ofc a bus pass is cheaper if you travel most days of the year, but not if you're an occasional traveller (like me), because you have to pay even for the days you aren't travelling
16:23:50 <b_jonas> If you travel on the same train or bus line regularly, then buying a pass is cheaper than driving a car, but you have to live in the right place where going to work with a train everyday is a good option.
16:23:51 <ais523> Taneb: right, advance tickets are weird
16:23:57 <ais523> sometimes they're much cheaper and sometimes they aren't any cheaper
16:24:28 <b_jonas> Most people outside big cities simply don't live in the right place, which results in masses of unemployed people who can't work because they don't have they money to commute to the nearest city to get work.
16:25:02 <b_jonas> ais523: right
16:26:06 <b_jonas> There's one case where occasonaly travel on train is actually well worth: it's when you live in Budapest and have a local bus pass (transport pass valid for metro, trams, etc),
16:26:43 <b_jonas> because then you can also use trains within the borders of Budapest for free with the pass, and for some locations they're actually better than taking the bus if you time your travel for the train timetable.
16:27:06 <ais523> b_jonas: right, I've never had one of those passes for any "long" time period – not cost effective – but I've bought them for single days on occasion
16:27:37 <b_jonas> But this rarely comes up because it works out only if you travel _between_ two suitable locations. There's basically no one location within the borders of Budapest from which going into the city is generally the best by train.
16:27:50 <FireFly> <b_jonas> Technically, there are also trains to Sweden, but they're horribly expensive for some reason. ← yeah, the train situation in Sweden is pretty messed up, even within the country
16:28:21 <b_jonas> You have to want to trabel between two outskirt lobes of Budapest, so that you skip going into the centre by the train..
16:28:22 <FireFly> I think sometimes it's cheaper or about on par cost-wise to fly instead
16:29:11 <b_jonas> FireFly: I hear trains in Sweden is complicated because there's multiple different types of trains and buses, differing on whether they're fixed price or cheaper to book earlier, and other factors.
16:29:55 <ais523> b_jonas: huh, in Birmingham, the vast majority of the train lines go through the centre, if you want to go somewhere by train that isn't at approximately the same angle from the centre you'll probably have to change trains /in/ the centre
16:30:07 <b_jonas> There are trains or buses here that you want to book in advance or they get filled and you can't get a ticket, but I can't think of any where the price is actually cheaper if you buy much in advance.
16:30:33 <b_jonas> ais523: Yes, that's sort of why it comes up often.
16:30:40 <ais523> also we have a distinction between buses which are typically local and can't be booked in advance, and coaches which are longer-distance and you have to book in advance
16:31:33 <b_jonas> But basically, the outskirts of Pest is split to like four lobes, such that each is served by buses from a different big station or two,
16:31:39 <FireFly> I think in general it's cheaper to buy train tickets early, but I'm not really sure what decides the price
16:32:26 <b_jonas> namely the northernmost part is served from the north part of the metro 3, this is separated by train lines blocking much of car and bus traffic from the north middle lobe,
16:32:45 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
16:32:53 <FireFly> I knew someone who ordered tickets from Göteborg to Uppsala but only travelled to Stockholm (which the train goes through) because it was cheaper that way, though, which is a bit curious
16:33:00 <b_jonas> which is served by buses and these days partially by metro 4, which is blocked from the middle lobe by another set of train lines unpassable by car,
16:33:31 <b_jonas> then the big south lobe is served by buses from Örs Vezér tér (the terminus of metro 2) and by the south end of metro 3 (Határ út and Kőbánya Kispest).
16:33:46 <ais523> FireFly: the rules about which tickets let you make which journies on UK trains are definitely ontopic for #esoteric :-)
16:33:52 <ais523> if not /actually/ Turing-complete
16:33:55 <FireFly> Haha
16:34:19 <b_jonas> But the trick is that if you want to go from the north middle lobe to the south lobe, then it _can_ be worth to take trains that pass through from north to south,
16:34:27 <FireFly> Could they ever deny you to leave at an earlier stop than your destination?
16:34:44 <FireFly> I mean, it seems like the kind of thing that would be hard to disallow
16:35:14 <b_jonas> and whose goal is actually to go from the city centre at Nyugati pályaudvar to various parts outside Budapest through multiple rail lines going out of the cith on the southern lobe.
16:36:16 <b_jonas> (It's possible that there are actually six lobes, the southern ones being served by Ráckevei HÉV and Csepeli HÉV, but luckily I'm not familiar enough with that.)
16:37:37 <b_jonas> There are also two tangential tram lines (tram 1 and tram 3) that somewhat connect the three lobes, and sometimes they're worth to take, but rarely,
16:38:10 <b_jonas> because unless the start or destination location is close to them, it's just faster to go through the center most of the times.
16:38:13 <FireFly> Hmm, we barely have any trams at all
16:38:58 <b_jonas> There's also the special case when you want to go on a route where you don't have to go up stairs at all, such as when I took luggage in a huge bag so heavy from the old home to the new home that I literally couldn't take it up the stairs:
16:39:20 <b_jonas> then I took tram 3, which is slower, but has a low floor, and gives a route with no underpasses.
16:39:23 <FireFly> ouch
16:39:51 <b_jonas> It wasn't really required, we could just have took the stuff by car, but I liked the challenge and wanted to try how viable this route was.
16:40:09 <b_jonas> The tram is only like 10 or 20 minutes slower than going through the center with the metro.
16:40:44 <b_jonas> Mostly because I have to walk the last one station instead of taking the metro.
16:41:25 <FireFly> Heh. Apparently the official numbers for the tram lines here are 7, 7N, 12, 21, 22 (though they're all referred to by other names in practice)
16:41:45 <b_jonas> Obviously, in the one rare case where I must carry lots of luggage, namely going to where the bus starts for a ski trip, if a car isn't available, I can pay for a taxi.
16:41:50 -!- diginet_ has quit (Quit: diginet has quit!).
16:42:13 -!- diginet has joined.
16:44:25 <b_jonas> FireFly: yeah, the HÉV has numeric identifiers these days, namely H5, H6, H7, H8, H9, but these numbers are new so people haven't learnt them yet, and just use the destinations as a name like we used to.
16:44:40 <FireFly> Makes sense
16:45:43 <b_jonas> These names were assigned when BKV decided to reassign numbers to lots of lines at the same time in such a way that there are only two namespaces, one for (bus, tram, streetcar) and one for (metro, HÉV, ship) rather than four like there used to be.
16:45:51 <FireFly> We use colours for the subway, the destination for local rail, and then a bunch of lines that have their own names for historical reason
16:45:52 <FireFly> reasons*
16:46:03 <b_jonas> Oh sure, there's still a few exceptions.
16:46:38 <FireFly> But they all have internal numbers that nobody knows
16:47:15 <b_jonas> The metros have always had numbers, but also colors at the same time. The Libegő and the Budavári Sikló still don't have names, because they're so unique. The fogaskerekű (cogway railway) does have a number now, but I'm not sure if people use it, because it's also a unique and recognizable type of vehicle.
16:47:37 <FireFly> Huh, cogway railway
16:47:39 <FireFly> neat
16:48:09 <b_jonas> Oh, and at the renamespacing, they also made another change which is _much_ more significant than eliminating the clashing numbers (bus 3 and tram 3; bus 73 and streetcar 73).
16:48:10 <ais523> <FireFly> Could they ever deny you to leave at an earlier stop than your destination? ← in most cases in the UK you're actually allowed to leave at an earlier stop than your destination, then get back on a later train and continue to your destination; this makes optimal train ticket planning very complex
16:49:27 <b_jonas> The old numbering used to have variant bus numbers for "express" buses that are red numbers in a rectangular frame; or, when that can't be presented on the media, a number in rectangular frame in the normal foreground color; or, when that can't be presented either, the number followed by "GY" (standing for "gyors");
16:49:55 <b_jonas> this system is easy for locals who are used to it, but cryptic to tourists passing by, so now we don't have it.
16:50:17 <FireFly> Heh
16:51:11 <FireFly> Our busses are red or blue, with the blue ones being "express" busses of sorts with fewer stops and usually connecting several key locations when the metro doesn't cut it
16:51:24 <b_jonas> Those buses now have a number followed by the letter "E". So now almost all lines are identified by a number of at least three digits, followed by one of the suffixes "E" or sometimes "A" or rarely "B" or "C" (I'm not sure if those are in use still), or prefix "M" (for metro, or metro replacement bus line), or "V" (for tram replacement bus line),
16:51:39 <FireFly> there's a system to which numbers correspond to blue busses, but it's rather cryptic and I don't think most people know about it
16:51:43 <b_jonas> or "H" (for HÉV or HÉV replacement bus line), or "D" (for ship).
16:51:54 <FireFly> some of them are three-digit numbers where the center digit is a 7
16:53:16 <b_jonas> Oh, and only the numbers 1 to 299 are in use, plus the numbers 900 to 999 for nightly buses, because 300 to 899 are reserved for bus interurban bus lines outside Budapest, not ran by BKK.
16:53:52 <b_jonas> This is a nice well designed system, though there's still some occasional exceptions where they manage to break it.
16:54:07 <b_jonas> Mostly temporary ones, but still.
16:54:20 <b_jonas> But then, "temporary" can mean it's only for three years here.
16:56:00 <b_jonas> Apparently "B" still exists as a suffix in at least one case.
16:56:54 <b_jonas> "C" always used to exist for temporary bus lines going to cementaries on --11-01 (when many people visit cementaries), and only if "A" and "B" was already used for that number.
16:57:41 <b_jonas> Oh, and before the namespacing put night buses to 900..999, they used to have the suffix "É", at the same time when a few express buses had the suffix "E" instead or a red number with frame.
16:58:42 <b_jonas> So the namespacing is well worth, even though I have a little grief that bus line 3 is no longer called that, it's been renamed to line 33, when IMO it would have deserved "3" much more than the tram line.
16:59:44 <b_jonas> But it does actually make sense rationally, for despite tram line 3 being new, it is a very important tram line, whereas bus line 3 is only important for having had that number for a long time.
17:01:50 <ais523> how easy is it to distinguish an E from an É?
17:01:52 <b_jonas> The namespacing didn't completely renumber everything from the star, so there's still lots of historical reasons for why certain lines have certain numbers.
17:02:40 <b_jonas> ais523: depends on the design of the sign. The night bus signs in bus stops are easy to recognize, for they have the number on inverted background, and an owl icon.
17:04:05 -!- dcentral has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:11:36 <b_jonas> Obviously the bus lines are many and change more often than the lines of other vehicles.
17:12:23 <b_jonas> Although we are living in interesting times where the govt is actually building tram linse in Buda to fix its traffic.
17:13:30 <b_jonas> It might even be ready in a year or two.
17:15:19 -!- dcentral has joined.
17:19:12 <fizzie> I think it's not unheard of to have train tickets where you can't get off at an intermediate stop. I know VR (the Finnish train operator) website at least earlier let you buy a ticket for a decidedly non-optimal "go from A to B via C" (where A and B are relatively near, but C is far away) connection that was significantly cheaper than tickets from A to C (because the price was derived from the ...
17:19:18 <fizzie> ... from/to distance, not the total route) and I believe you couldn't legally use that ticket to go from A to C only.
17:19:33 <fizzie> People still did that, since it's hard to enforce.
17:20:14 <fizzie> Finland doesn't generally do gates at stations, the tickets are only checked on the train.
17:20:23 <ais523> in the UK, it's kind-of random where tickets will be checked
17:20:24 <fizzie> (If at all.)
17:20:30 <ais523> station gates and on-train both happen sporadically and randomly
17:20:40 <ais523> (very large stations are the most likely to enforce a check at the gates)
17:20:51 <b_jonas> I'm quite sure we don't have that here. As long as the train has a normal stop somewhere where you could get off with _some_ ticket, you're allowed to get off with any ticket.
17:21:19 <fizzie> I think every time we've departed from London Euston there's been a ticket check at the station.
17:21:45 <b_jonas> The train tickets are sold for a route and priced on route distance (or at least the official measurement of route distances in the book), and unlike tickets for any other vehicle, you can even get off trains and get on another train continuing the same route with a train ticket.
17:22:59 <b_jonas> Whereas tickets inside Budapest are mostly unit tickets for getting on once and getting off once, regardless distance, except that you're allowed to change from a line to or from a bus replacing it, or change between two metros free.
17:23:03 <coppro> Japanese trains are pretty consistently station-gated
17:23:17 <fizzie> I like the fact about London buses that you can use a travel card of any zone for any bus line, no matter where it goes. I've got a zone 1/2 travelcard for my commute, so bus travel is essentially free.
17:23:21 <coppro> most travel is done using a preloaded card, which is charged based on where you enter and exit
17:23:37 <b_jonas> So with a local ticket inside Budapest, you definitely aren't allowed to get off and get on another vehicle.
17:23:47 <fizzie> (I don't like the fact that there's no validity time for a bus ticket; if you have to change buses, it costs exactly twice as much as taking one bus.)
17:23:57 <ais523> oh, and long-distance trains are the most likely to check on the train
17:24:08 <ais523> fizzie: the normal technique here is to buy a day ticket rather than a single
17:24:27 <coppro> long-distance trains will only come round and check if they are an express, which carries an additional charge.
17:24:29 <b_jonas> There's time limits on the tickets, but they're for catching cheaters who try to reuse the ticket. If you use the ticket in the permitted way, then you can't run out of the time limit.
17:24:46 <coppro> you can pay on the train though
17:24:49 <ais523> the London Underground uses station gate checks consistently
17:24:55 <fizzie> Well, London's Oyster has a "daily cap" thing, and there's a special bus-only cap that's lower than the normal daily cap.
17:25:22 <fizzie> It's £4.40, and a single bus trip is £1.50.
17:25:51 <coppro> the only time I didn't see an operating gate in Japan was when it was late at night in a small station, so they didn't have a staff member on hand so they just left the gate open. But in Japan, the amount of abuse that would see is pretty low
17:26:00 <fizzie> So it's fixed £4.40 if you do anything involving at least 3 buses within a day; but a round-trip somewhere is still £3.00 if you can manage to pick a route that doesn't involve changing buses.
17:26:02 <b_jonas> There are monthly passes, very popular, plus daily tickets and a few other options used mostly by visitors who travel a lot in a short span.
17:27:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: so it's like a daily ticket chosen automatically after the fact? that's nice, but it works only for an electronic system, not for the paper-based tickets here.
17:27:29 -!- MoALTz has joined.
17:29:07 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yes. With the extra twist that there are different caps for different combinations of zones, and it automatically computes for you the lowest amount of money you could be paying. (As in, "use the cap for zones 1-3 and exclude your one zone 1-6 trip, because it's cheaper than the zone 1-6 cap even though that would include the one trip".)
17:29:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: nice.
17:29:53 <fizzie> Oh, and also off-peak/on-peak caps.
17:29:54 <b_jonas> There are always rumours about plans to get a partly electronic system here, but it's not quite clear to me how such a thing could work.
17:30:42 <ais523> b_jonas: we have a partly electronic system in Birmingham at the moment
17:30:51 <b_jonas> The supposedly machine-readable barcodes that have been printed on every ticket and pass for a while probably have the goal of easing compatibility with an eventual electronic system.
17:30:58 <ais523> it works like this: you can buy tickets on the bus by paying cash; or you can use one of three types of electronic card
17:31:07 <ais523> one of them substitutes for cash, you pre-load it with money and use it to pay for the tickets
17:31:24 <ais523> one of them is loaded with day tickets in advance, and automatically uses one if you haven't used it yet that day
17:31:41 <b_jonas> That is, in worst case, you could have machines that automatically replace paper tickets and passes with whatever comes after, by reading the barcodes. Pity they're printed unreadable on a few passes, but they fixed that quickly.
17:31:47 <ais523> and one of them is a season ticket that lets you travel on all forms of public transport for free for a year (and accordingly is very expensive)
17:31:54 <ais523> actually, might just be all buses for a year
17:31:55 <fizzie> They've also got a weekly cap if you're paying with a contactless credit/debit card, which for some reason doesn't apply to the regular Oyster card. Possibly they're trying to promote the use of contactless -- at least they keep having ads about it everywhere.
17:31:56 <ais523> not sure, I don't have one
17:32:26 <b_jonas> aoOh, I think I've seen such a thing in Sweden, where there are both pre-paid electronic cards and buying tickets in place on buses.
17:32:34 <fizzie> (Any contactless credit/debit card works "automatically" as a travel card, you can even register it on the website and all.)
17:33:39 <b_jonas> On certain bus and trolley lines, you can buy tickets at the driver or controller here too, but that only works on low traffic lines. It checks out, since the high traffic lines are mostly hub lines that stop at locations where you can buy a ticket outside the bus anyway.
17:35:05 <b_jonas> The real problem is high traffic bus or tram lines. It seems hard to imagine a full automatic system there, although you could still have an electronic system with the controllers carrying electronic gadgets. For metros, it _might_ be just about possible to install automatic gates, although there'll be some throughput problems.
17:35:58 <fizzie> London's pretty busy, and they manage to do that.
17:36:14 <fizzie> You can't pay bus fares with anything else than the card.
17:36:37 <fizzie> The busy routes have card readers also on the middle doors, so that not everyone has to get in through the front door.
17:37:17 <fizzie> Of course the single-fare-no-options thing makes it easier, you just shove your card towards the machine and wait until it goes beep.
17:37:37 <b_jonas> It can be worth to do this even for the metros, because they have lots of traffic.
17:38:08 <b_jonas> So even if everywhere else the tickets just work the same as now, with controllers checking it, only using a mobile phone instead of manual inspection, it could be an improvement.
17:38:08 <fizzie> For the one in Helsinki, you have to select the kind of ticket you want, which makes it a lot slower. (Plus the devices themselves are pretty bad -- especially older people can't actually press the buttons with sufficient strenght for it to register.)
17:38:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: ouch
17:38:48 <fizzie> They'll be replacing the whole system next year, hopefully the new ones will be better.
17:38:54 <fizzie> Oh, 2017.
17:39:12 <fizzie> They've been postponing it. Any sort of public project that involves computers is always behind schedule and over budget.
17:39:39 <ais523> fizzie: the one in Birmingham, you tell the bus driver what you want, who presses the buttons
17:39:43 <ais523> and then place the card on the card reader
17:39:49 <ais523> presumably this is to work around people who are bad at pressing buttons
17:39:59 <b_jonas> The vending machines here aren't ideal too. Some people have trouble using the interface, but there's usually people around who can help. Any smartphone user youth can use it, as much as it works at least. There's still places where humans are selling tickets, but in fewer locations with shorter opening times.
17:40:20 <ais523> oh, I had huge problems buying a train ticket in London
17:40:22 <fizzie> http://papunet.net/sites/papunet.net/files/kuvapankki/matkakortin_lukija.jpg <-- the card interfaces in Helsinki.
17:40:31 <b_jonas> The real problem with the current system the passes printed by this machine.
17:40:43 <fizzie> You're supposed to hold the card near the middle of the green cross-shaped thing, and press the button while still keeping the card sufficiently near.
17:40:49 <ais523> they had more than one sort of machine, the sort that worked out what sort of ticket you needed for you wouldn't let me type my destination station because one of the letter keys was broken
17:40:51 <fizzie> For all practical purposes, the bottom slot is not used for anything.
17:40:55 <fizzie> It's not exactly intuitive.
17:40:58 <ais523> so I had to use a machine where you had to know the ticket you needed in advance
17:41:26 <fizzie> (Some very special groups like HSL employees have chip cards that can go to the lower slot, I believe, but that's a negligible fraction.)
17:41:45 <b_jonas> Unlike the previous tickets and passes of various colors and pre-printed templates, all currently sold tickets are printed by a printer to a single type of roll of paper, just like how the train tickets work these days, only this paper roll has fancy holographic strip and other supposedly hard to counterfeit features:
17:42:13 <fizzie> (Oh, and the buttons have no "travel" at all.)
17:42:23 <b_jonas> except that there's no point counterfeiting the paper itself, because you can just erase the printed text and print new tickets on the paper.
17:44:08 <b_jonas> So now the passes are easier to counterfeit, and the controllers have a harder time recognizing it because it's all just black icons and text printed on the same kind of paper.
17:44:34 <b_jonas> Oh, and I have to trim a few millimiters of the pass so it fits in a card sized holder.
17:45:15 <b_jonas> The printing is some sort of laser, not heat printer, because some passes must be legible for slightly over a year.
17:45:18 <ais523> UK train tickets are on a weird sort of cardboard, and also have a magnetic stripe
17:45:33 <ais523> and seem to be printed by a wide number of different printers
17:45:42 <ais523> you can compare two tickets bought from different ticket machines and the ink looks noticeably different
17:45:49 <ais523> (but the magnetic stripe is used for all machine-reading of them)
17:46:45 <b_jonas> We used to have various different formats of train tickets, until they brought in this new system some years ago. Now we only have two format: normal, and printed by the controller on the train (which differs so they can carry a lighter machine and lighter paper).
17:47:29 <b_jonas> Oh, and also the Budapest bus passes can be bought from either the BKK (local transport company) and the MÁV (train company) functionally identical but with different formats.
17:48:02 <b_jonas> Oh, and there's yet another format I forgot:
17:48:10 <b_jonas> you can buy train tickets you can print at home.
17:49:42 <fizzie> You can do that here for many train companies (at least long-distance trains), but not all of them.
17:49:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood).
17:50:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
17:50:33 <fizzie> We've done print-at-home tickets for Virgin, but I think ScotRail tickets we needed to collect at our local train station.
17:50:48 <fizzie> "Collect" == print out from the normal ticket machines with the reservation code.
17:50:58 <b_jonas> You can print tickets for home only for certain types of tickets. I'm not familiar with the details.
17:51:09 <fizzie> (At least you could do that at any National Rail station machine, and not only at stations where ScotRail operates.)
17:51:36 <b_jonas> The other formats of the tickets were used in small stations and on the train back when computers were expensive so some stations sold tickets completely manually without a printer.
17:52:17 <b_jonas> Yes, there are pre-paid tickets you collect at the station for big stations, but then the ticket is of just the ordinary format, the same you buy from operators or machines.
17:52:42 <b_jonas> There are some tickets you can buy locally from vending machines on the big stations, paying with card or cash.
17:53:10 <b_jonas> But you can buy those only for certain destinations, so you still have to buy most tickets from operators.
17:53:42 <fizzie> The thing with different train companies here still feels a bit weird, because in Finland VR has a monopoly. (They're planning to open that up for competition, at least for some routes.)
17:54:31 <ais523> the UK has too many train companies
17:55:01 <ais523> different companies own the trains, to the companies that own the track (although only one company owns any significant amount of track), to the companies that actually run the trains
17:55:30 <ais523> also there are a huge range of organizations you can buy train tickets from (including all the train running operators, and a few independent ones), and these train tickets will work on all the appropriate trains
17:55:45 <ais523> and there is apparently a very complex formula used to compensate the various companies accordingly from the train ticket revenue
17:56:15 <fizzie> They've got some sort of administrative split between the thing that owns and maintains the tracks vs. the thing that owns the trains, but since VR Group (the train operator) is still fully owned by the state, it doesn't really matter that much.
17:57:19 <fizzie> Apparently the track maintenance is currently not run as a company but as a government agency. But it used to be part of a company that owned the train operator company. Or something like that.
17:57:20 <b_jonas> We have like two or three extra train companies, but it's not a competition anywhere, the extra companies are just serving a particular area of the country.
17:57:38 <b_jonas> For a passenger, it all works basically as if there was just one company.
17:57:49 <ais523> there are only a few routes in the UK that have company competition
17:58:12 <ais523> (actually I think there are /three/ companies who offer Birmingham to London routes; two of them use basically the same route but stop at different sets of intermediate stations, the third uses a totally different route)
17:58:21 -!- jaboja has joined.
17:59:14 <b_jonas> There are also multiple bus companies, all regional, and the biggest one probably serves less than half of the country.
17:59:16 <fizzie> I think we've mostly been buying tickets from the "correct" companies, though I think we went Blackpool-London with a ticket bought from Virgin that combined a Northern and a Virgin segment.
17:59:45 <APic> ais523: What You say for the UK is pretty much true for my Part of Europe (Germany) as well.
17:59:58 <APic> At least i guess so.
18:00:07 <b_jonas> A few of the bigger towns have local buses, and Miskolc and Szeged even has local tram lines.
18:00:09 <fizzie> Virgin's just started a handy thing where they'll auto-compensate your credit card if the train is late enough (30 minutes for 50% off, 60 minutes for 100% off, 120 minutes for 100% off for the whole ticket of a return).
18:00:20 <fizzie> Normally you'd need to fill forms and such.
18:00:38 <ais523> fizzie: if you buy a ticket from the company who operates the train, you often get bonuses like a guaranteed seat or choice of seat
18:00:45 <ais523> not in terms of pricing, though, normally just better service
18:00:59 <b_jonas> For some lines between towns, there's actually a competition between bus and train, mind you.
18:01:06 <b_jonas> So that's one form of competition.
18:01:17 <fizzie> The seat selection thing is strange too, I don't think we've ever gotten a proper "here's a map of the train, pick your seats" seat selection for a train trip here.
18:01:25 <fizzie> That's been the norm in Finland for quite a few years by now.
18:02:06 <fizzie> Virgin's "seat selection" seems to mean giving it some attributes about what sort of seats you want, and then getting some sort of a seat assignment back.
18:03:14 <b_jonas> And for Budapest city to the airport, there's a three-wise competition between public transport (bus plus metro, or bus only at night; the least convenient and slowest, but cheapest), taxi (the fastest and most convenient), and bus that takes multiple people directly from or to their destination (cheaper than taxi only if you're travelling alone, but slower).
18:03:28 <b_jonas> \ taxi (the fastest and most convenient), and bus that takes multiple people directly from or to their destination (cheaper than taxi only if you're travelling alone, but slower).
18:04:14 <fizzie> And ScotRail's website was very indecipherable when it came to reserved seatings ("sometimes we have them, sometimes we don't, you can't reserve seats online ever, good luck") -- turns out the Oban-to-Glasgow train was (a) very full, and (b) reserved seats only, and we hadn't gone to do seat reservations at the train station. Had some trouble getting a seat at all.
18:04:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: isn't that done deliberately? there's no seat selection for trains even with reserved seats here, and I don't think there could be, because if there was, everyone travelling alone (the majority of people) would hog one of a double seat first, and then people travelling in pairs or larger groups couldn't book seats close to each other.
18:04:57 <fizzie> Could be. I don't know how the Finnish system accounts for that.
18:05:15 <fizzie> Maybe it doesn't show (all) empty double seats as available if you're buying a single ticket.
18:05:35 <b_jonas> That certainly happens all the time on trams and buses everywhere when there are no reserved seats, unless there's so few people that less than one third of the seats are occupied.
18:05:46 <fizzie> Or maybe I'm assuming too much of it, and they just live with that.
18:05:56 <b_jonas> It doesn't happen in cinemas because much fewer people go to a cinema alone than on a bus.
18:06:29 <fizzie> The cinema seats are also generally in long rows, and it doesn't matter so much if you pick a single seat at the edge of the currently reserved central block.
18:06:35 <fizzie> It doesn't get fragmented that way so badly.
18:07:25 <b_jonas> If you get on a train with two small children, and enough single seats, then people will generally happily move to give you a triple place. But that can't work with reserved tickets.
18:08:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, and on certain trains that go _towards_ Budapest or towards a big city, people don't get on all at the same time, but gradually fill the train.
18:11:50 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:13:19 <APic> Once i drank too much before the Cinema because i decided to watch a Movie in a small amount of Time, and it was good that i had a Seat near the Edge. B-)
18:14:16 <b_jonas> APic: are you writing with German capitals?
18:14:29 <APic> b_jonas: Yes.
18:14:50 <APic> Probably „before“ has the wrong Meaning, too.
18:14:52 <APic> Or could have.
18:14:57 <APic> I meant before in Time.
18:14:59 <APic> Not in Space.
18:18:36 <b_jonas> I don't see that used often in English with otherwise standard orthography.
18:19:03 <ais523> b_jonas: you can often figure out who's written a sentence from their writing quirks
18:19:10 <ais523> APic capitalizes nouns, you sometimes get gendered pronouns confused
18:19:15 <b_jonas> ais523: sure. or their programming quirks.
18:19:19 <ais523> I probably have something that identifies me too
18:19:24 <ais523> programming quirks is easier
18:19:25 <APic> Ok.
18:19:35 * APic likes !Anonymous on IRCnet ;)
18:19:53 <b_jonas> In C++ programs, I put tons of asserts, and if(false) or if(true) blocks.
18:20:20 <b_jonas> I also use arrays and explicit array indexes a lot.
18:20:57 <b_jonas> And I'm adamant in the int *foo; spacing
18:21:17 -!- mauris has joined.
18:21:52 <APic> I glue * to the Variable-Name instead of the Type too.
18:23:29 <ais523> b_jonas: I use int *const foo; spacing too
18:23:38 <ais523> saw an autoindentor use it and decided that I liked it
18:23:47 -!- zadock has joined.
18:23:53 <ais523> because it shows quite clearly that the const is attached to the * (i.e. the pointer is const)
18:25:43 -!- zadock has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:26:41 <b_jonas> It makes sense for an old C programmer. Less so for a C++ programmer who writes stuff like array<int, 16>, unique_ptr<foo>, observer_ptr<foo>.
18:33:24 <APic> C++ puts way more Load on the Lexer and/or Parser.
18:33:40 <APic> Than C.
18:34:05 <b_jonas> certainly
18:35:41 <fizzie> ais523: Does that extend to `int *const *foo`? Hmm. I've never known where to put the mid-'const', but that doesn't look half bad.
18:35:57 <ais523> fizzie: yes, "int *const *foo"
18:36:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes. and even to int *
18:36:50 <b_jonas> foo()
18:36:50 <b_jonas> {
18:37:09 <b_jonas> with a newline between the * and the foo so the defined name gets in the first column
18:37:11 <APic> „cdecl“ and „cundecl“ are good Friends. B-)
18:37:21 <fizzie> I don't do the first-column names, so that's not an issue for me.
18:37:41 <APic> b_jonas: Somehow looks more like K&R-Style instead of like modern ANSI.
18:37:42 <fizzie> Also I've started to use ` to quote things when talking about C, because it doesn't have a meaning there. It's not even in the basic character set.
18:38:02 <APic> (The ANSI-Stuff i can remember at the Moment)
18:38:32 <APic> I like `„` and `“`. Unicode rocks. B)
18:38:36 <fizzie> Well, `foo()` is pretty non-modern; no prototype.
18:38:44 <fizzie> Or, well; non-modern, or C++.
18:39:14 <APic> The Lack of the Prototype yes, but the Newline looked old to me.
18:39:26 <ais523> APic: I often use « » for quoting code because anything in ASCII can be confused for part of what's being quoted
18:39:32 <ais523> but Perl 6 uses «» as quote marks
18:39:40 <APic> B-)
18:45:10 <b_jonas> APic: the problem with „”»« quotation marks is that all of »«“ are used as both opening quotation marks in some language and closing quotation marks in some other language.
18:45:38 <b_jonas> So while they clearly delimit a quotation, in some contexts it could be confusing whether they're starting or ending marks.
18:48:06 <b_jonas> Especially if you're quoting in technical contexts where the quoted text may start or end with whitespace.
18:48:46 <b_jonas> Funnily, I think „” is unambiguous, and so are Japanese quotation marks.
18:48:56 -!- sat-buddhi has joined.
18:51:02 <b_jonas> But I'm not sure about the former.
18:51:11 <ais523> Japanese quotation marks would look ridiculous if backwards
18:51:35 <b_jonas> Oh, and single quotation marks can be ambiguous with apostrophes.
18:52:02 <b_jonas> (And that's when printed. In handwriting, there's much more ambiguities of course.)
18:54:19 <APic> b_jonas: Are not `„“` like `»«`?
18:54:39 <b_jonas> APic: in what sense?
18:54:51 -!- sat-buddhi has changed nick to turiya.
18:54:52 <APic> Good Question.
18:56:50 * APic is confused.
18:56:56 <b_jonas> IIRC the quotation mark pairs used in European languages are “” „” „“ »« «» and some variants with single instead of double, but with various whitespace conventions, but I have the feeling there's some combination I'm missing
18:57:09 <b_jonas> Let me check en.wikipedia.
18:57:58 <b_jonas> Oh right, there's also straight quotation marks "" and the singles of that.
18:59:26 <b_jonas> Oh, apparently ”” and »» also exists.
19:02:04 -!- ^v has joined.
19:04:13 <b_jonas> Let me count how many combinations that gives. “” „” „“ ”” »« «» »» ‘’ ‚’ ’’ ›‹ ‹› ›› except that the last one might not actually exist, and that about three of those exist with whitespace on both sides in French.
19:04:29 <b_jonas> Oh, and "" '' too.
19:04:54 <b_jonas> That's about 17 combinations.
19:05:24 <b_jonas> And this means there's no European quotation mark that's unambiguously closing a quote, never opening it.
19:09:25 <b_jonas> Since these competing standards are so confusing, let's invent a new kind of quotation mark that's better than all of them!
19:10:26 <ais523> what about ()
19:10:28 <ais523> like in Underload
19:14:48 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, if you go to programming languages, then there are more
19:15:59 <b_jonas> [[ ]] [=[ ]=] etc in Lua, """ """ or ''' ''' in Python, R"( )" R"*( )*" etc in modern C++, () and two other pairs I don't remember in postscript
19:23:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ATZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46004&oldid=42095 * * (+10) stub
19:24:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ATZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46005&oldid=46004 * * (-12)
19:26:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Church-Turing thesis]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46006&oldid=23582 * * (+9)
19:33:51 -!- turiya has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
19:56:38 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined.
19:57:29 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:57:33 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane.
20:05:30 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
20:06:23 <quintopia> ais523: i entered a 3SP program in a PPCG challenge
20:06:34 <ais523> quintopia: neat; link?
20:06:46 <ais523> also I didn't realise that other people were programming 3SP nowadays
20:06:56 <ais523> I got as far as sketch-proving it was TC and then I stopped
20:07:14 <ais523> err, TC and output-only BFC
20:08:49 <b_jonas> AGDC starts in a week, that's great
20:11:05 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:12:08 <zzo38> I think the Japanese quotations mark format is easily enough though
20:12:40 <APic> What is it?
20:12:53 <quintopia> ais523:
20:13:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: but Japanese quotation marks are for Kanji style grid cells, they don't mesh well with Latin letter text
20:13:01 <quintopia> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/67795/47050
20:13:13 <ais523> thanks
20:13:34 -!- mauris has joined.
20:14:50 <zzo38> Yes, you are correct
20:16:17 <ais523> quintopia: also how much effort did it take to get the program to halt?
20:16:52 <b_jonas> A Three Star Programmer program? wow!
20:16:59 <b_jonas> There's actual programs in that language now?
20:17:12 <b_jonas> This is crazy
20:17:55 <ais523> b_jonas: I have a sketch of an algo for compiling cyclic tag to 3SP
20:18:01 <ais523> but it doesn't handle I/O so I have no way to test it
20:18:17 <ais523> I was working on a way to do I/O too but got distracted and ended up inventing Last ReSort instead
20:18:54 <b_jonas> ais523: I see
20:19:12 <b_jonas> ais523: is the translation polynomial time?
20:19:49 <ais523> each cyclic tag cycle takes one 3SP cycle
20:20:05 <ais523> however, the length of that cycle might not be linear in the size of the original cyclic tag program
20:20:12 <ais523> can't remember whether it is or not
20:20:23 <hppavilion[1]> I'm implementing Propositional Nomic :)
20:21:00 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but is the runtime still polynomial in the original rumtime? and do you need only polynomial time to generate the 3sp source code from the cyclic tag source code?
20:21:07 <quintopia> ais523: two commands i think. it turned out to be enough to just point reg0 somewhere else
20:21:29 <ais523> b_jonas: the compiler is O(n)
20:21:33 <b_jonas> at the point where cyclic tag is involved, I no longer care much about being linear, because it's probably a lost cause anyway, as opposed to just polynomial.
20:21:38 <ais523> quintopia: ah right
20:21:40 <b_jonas> great
20:21:47 <b_jonas> I didn't know 3sp is so programmable.
20:22:06 <ais523> yes, I got disappointed in it when I realised it was too easy
20:23:35 <b_jonas> Let me see if Rosetta Code has 3SP programs on it yet
20:24:10 <b_jonas> nope, not yet
20:24:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[3SP]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46007 * B jonas * (+35) Redirected page to [[Three Star Programmer]]
20:46:23 <quintopia> any ideas for the totally unstructured langusge yet
20:50:45 <b_jonas> I want to buy a compact camera, but it's hard to compare them, so I should figure out some tie-breaker feature to compare the similar cameras. Sensitivity bracketing could be such a feature, if it is available in some of the compact cameras of the category I want.
20:51:21 <b_jonas> How do camera manufacturers call that these days? Something with "multi" I think.
20:53:41 <b_jonas> I have to find out how each brand calls this feature first.
20:54:42 <b_jonas> Or just buy the cheapest.
20:57:42 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:07:35 <b_jonas> Aha, apparently that feature is called "AE Bracketing".
21:08:56 <b_jonas> "AE" might stand for "adjust exposure" or it might not, I'm not sure
21:09:04 <b_jonas> or maybe "auto exposure"
21:27:06 -!- Welo has joined.
21:44:55 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:45:21 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.).
21:45:48 -!- TodPunk has joined.
21:53:02 -!- vanila has joined.
21:53:05 <vanila> https://github.com/HexHive/printbf
21:53:16 <vanila> brainfuck implemented in a single printf string
21:55:45 -!- Patashu has joined.
21:58:48 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:07:05 <zzo38> Is there good software for SQL templating in a webpage like PHP is doing, but each block can contain a text part as well (to do a kind of foreach loop templating) and you can declare error handler and so on too
22:08:23 -!- TodPunk has joined.
22:12:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:13:09 <vanila> hi zzo38
22:15:39 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
22:19:27 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: Hi
22:24:04 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Quit: WALRUS MAAAAAAAAAAAAN).
22:24:42 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Page closed).
22:25:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:27:49 -!- vanila has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:59:20 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:01:32 -!- augur has joined.
23:04:38 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:08:20 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:13:11 -!- ineiros has joined.
23:30:15 <boily> vanhelloa, hppavellon[1], chelloppro, hezzo38, QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAH!
23:32:31 <zzo38> Hello
23:34:40 -!- ^v has left ("Leaving").
23:52:06 -!- sat-buddhi has joined.
23:53:39 -!- sat-buddhi has changed nick to turiya.
←2015-12-26 2015-12-27 2015-12-28→ ↑2015 ↑all