< 1452038411 851852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: in what language? allegedly English? < 1452038431 589423 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, but only very approximately. < 1452038455 472960 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --help < 1452038458 233937 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset < 1452038462 237647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I wonder what words approximate English has < 1452038465 106702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :typos, perhaps? < 1452038468 305480 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words -l < 1452038471 817532 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M < 1452038482 889616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --eng-all < 1452038490 33123 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that the same as the approximate words that English has? < 1452038493 684923 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that uses the WordData, i take < 1452038498 261648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1452038504 328931 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is heavily ngrammed IIRC < 1452038508 872206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` words --eng-all 10 < 1452038513 403619 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --hebrew 10 < 1452038514 651522 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1452038516 516323 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1452038519 623730 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` words --hebrew 10 < 1452038525 617073 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shal < 1452038527 655232 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works with a single ` (when it works). < 1452038534 155067 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1452038542 644216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo test < 1452038545 207084 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​המיי והסגר אונטו להטעמ סטפל ונתי בתוקפס אופמל שהורמציא שקפת < 1452038545 366123 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ומא הנבי ותו והלו קיבלת בגרמו התשוב ולתפ מדכתבואנט ארשתי < 1452038546 942988 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The script does its own argument splitting if it only gets a single argument that contains spaces, or some-such. < 1452038547 948058 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1452038549 263869 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :med hmmerial prae marit patro ress beau dez oxb olsen < 1452038556 215379 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just being laggery, apparently. < 1452038565 512271 :hppavilion[2]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1452038579 307701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm wondering what happens if you put hackego `words output into an online translator < 1452038584 579200 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an interesting interleaving < 1452038584 763463 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --german 20 < 1452038586 682693 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bilisen hocherksto joyaisorgangift beiten abwehrbund alitätenpaß leben perichenfandar gestwärtne verabzügen torischwing schlagenwein pferia hufernzugenerandel metrat mannen fache maeclaviaturbeisener nidiposumker hilfe < 1452038597 535452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least one of those is a real word < 1452038601 837393 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"German - detected". < 1452038608 948446 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --hebrew 20 < 1452038610 561785 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​יאמצני ונתגדו וקל מטפו ונכר ועבד קסיסמא וביז שחששו ותח וישאל בכונת שהקולין ההזיולם טוטיפותר ומספי במלח והמפו כשנמר הזדים < 1452038634 763415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most were left alone < 1452038638 333145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some were capitalized in various ways < 1452038646 748939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. beiten → BEITEN < 1452038663 144794 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also translated abwehrbund to "defense bund", leben to "live", schlagenwein to "beat wine", fache to "times" and hilfe to "Help". < 1452038664 175299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"abwehrbund" translates to "defense bund", apparently < 1452038705 575753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the translations of leben and hilfe are actually correct, apart from possibly capitalization < 1452038711 285175 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :leben and hilfe are correct, anyway < 1452038712 900348 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --french 20 < 1452038715 275030 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​étaire kovt lix lacic lirmat locailr hocquité fuvre plicoppe cba ems sylloukhostrie brabort fandres réinsurs litères eduimamiti deredaireronné koiserlartine befulat < 1452038724 783693 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ewige Blumenwein Und Ewige Schlangenwein < 1452038751 831183 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: schlagen, not schlangen hth < 1452038760 252456 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, only one change on the French (litères → Literes) < 1452038760 952790 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure that's different < 1452038773 91035 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: schangenkraft, not schagenkraft hth < 1452038775 962103 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1452038779 807842 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i messed that up < 1452038783 436656 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :schlangenkraft < 1452038802 944540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --italian 20 < 1452038803 998426 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sballere inendo carla predierò curerò procura all'offuma attimbre redeno fruschi spell'augura rapandosi sonacano faccendi abbagliente appandoccusa trasbottammo marrete consavamo riatenere < 1452038807 623118 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :snake wine is the fancy version of snake oil < 1452038820 898362 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh i assumed you were starting from the schlagenwein < 1452038834 681981 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was combining schagenwein and schlangenkraft < 1452038838 688734 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :look < 1452038845 373660 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :why'd you have to make me go and type it out like that < 1452038848 850929 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The headlines of the biggest Finnish newspaper today mentioned how Google Translate was translating "Російська Федерація" (Russian Federation) in Ukranian → Russian mode to Мордор (Mordor). < 1452038851 385986 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have some words there, "curerò procura" becomes "heal attorney" < 1452038854 519932 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The perils of machine learning. < 1452038871 751110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :snake wine salesmen tend to be snobs < 1452038872 452412 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: intentional Googlebomb? or some sort of crazy accident? < 1452038893 312941 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, is the input being given there spelled in Russian or in Ukranian?) < 1452038909 959817 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's in Ukranian, but I'm certainly no expert. < 1452038910 647439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is snake wine fermented snake oil? < 1452038918 683242 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps. < 1452038938 898395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: did you know the meaning of "sgtm" a year ago < 1452038940 746199 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think our official comment is that it's just an accident, and not really all that crazy either. < 1452038969 721188 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the russian is Российская Федерация < 1452038982 368566 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think so, but I'm not 100% sure. Certainly it feels now as if I'd always known it. < 1452038994 89833 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :russian no longer uses і < 1452039016 827514 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used it in another channel and someone deduced my employment history from it. < 1452039032 938162 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I looked in my email history and apparently I never used it before 2013. < 1452039037 610320 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know what it stands for, altough I'm guessing "sounds/seems good to me" < 1452039042 221188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from reverse etymology < 1452039043 586210 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But now I think it was always common. < 1452039053 386749 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So who knows. < 1452039066 31782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at Agora, very occasionally, people will write a message entirely as an acronym, and sometimes people figure out what it was meant to be < 1452039068 177948 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes. < 1452039077 481139 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's also true in this channel. < 1452039085 129915 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric : ityarfo < 1452039085 289441 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Today was my first Googleversary. < 1452039088 295943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric : sptm < 1452039090 33362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this channel and Agora have quite an overlap < 1452039103 535185 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: did you get balloons? < 1452039107 62521 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :theory: "scow" is actually an acronym but nobody knows what it stands for < 1452039117 690574 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just ones in an email. < 1452039117 850388 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the etymology of "scow". < 1452039132 103723 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You didn't get who balloons? < 1452039145 279498 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or teams balloons or whatever that thing is called. < 1452039186 741180 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you also got ASUs or something. < 1452039217 747311 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I looked at my Teams page. < 1452039231 794726 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that's where something should've been. < 1452039240 403967 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time fizzie < 1452039241 928229 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for fizzie is Wed Jan 6 00:14:00 2016 < 1452039246 16817 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOO LATE < 1452039247 228999 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : we have some words there, "curerò procura" becomes "heal attorney" <-- google messes up the grammar, that should be "i will heal". although it might be ungrammatical without an article... izabera? < 1452039275 450934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so it's "I will heal the attorney" except that "attorney" is a subject rather than an object? < 1452039295 741612 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1452039321 717892 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, an attorney, will heal? < 1452039364 137259 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll attorney your wounds. < 1452039471 87016 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to learn Italian but sort of took a break due to exams < 1452039483 271591 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do I have 5 exams in 4 days? :( < 1452039508 230255 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: italian doesn't have noun cases, but i think there should be a "la" in there. except now i check, procura seems to refer to power, not actual persons < 1452039539 326839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: because nowadays exams aren't scheduled for student convenience but for administrator convenience < 1452039553 271353 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: you're being pigeonholed as a student hth < 1452039553 451455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually noticed a notable decline in timetable quality during my time at school < 1452039558 306445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as timetables became more automated < 1452039578 46564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: if you're taking exams, doesn't that kind-of make you a student by definition? I guess you could be an applicant < 1452039593 752146 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I know Chromium folks also use "sgtm" a lot, so you definitely don't need to be a Google employee to be infected. < 1452039594 888653 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but most of the time, the purpose of exams is to gauge how much someone has learned, which implies that someone has been teaching them < 1452039598 328018 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.chromium.org/glossary < 1452039599 939944 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, I am afraid that I must confess to being a student < 1452039623 957541 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgml sgtm < 1452039624 582778 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Did you know about https://cs.chromium.org/ ? < 1452039638 7761 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: REALITY.SYS Corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q) < 1452039646 711039 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It could be an exam for a professional certification or something. < 1452039675 127483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's why I included "applicant" as the other possibility < 1452039682 298756 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes. < 1452039687 147555 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh, I guess so. < 1452039700 365190 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It's TG. CS is one of the best things. < 1452039781 772264 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The Chromium one is lacking in layers. < 1452039807 44981 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the git views are okay. < 1452040071 729425 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That page has a much better expansion of SGTM than the one I knew. < 1452040145 291219 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know Grok had been kind of open-sourced as "Kythe". < 1452040156 835282 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? kythe < 1452040157 867196 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kythe? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1452040192 973071 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: I didn't either. < 1452040245 629892 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that is < 1452040259 555744 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means "drink" hth < 1452040292 208416 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tdnrh, bigwi. < 1452040351 448115 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :bigwi? < 1452040372 382990 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'll Go With It. < 1452040715 524328 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hezzo38. today I had a relapse, and I magicked with my coworkers. < 1452040734 819897 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't magicked in a while < 1452040741 134639 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I avoid it by not owning any cards < 1452040743 797591 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(magiced? magicqued? maybe even a strong verb, and magunk?) < 1452040746 312012 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or spending any money on it < 1452040763 87183 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: "jammed" hth < 1452040777 490204 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my bro gave me a nice one for Christmas/Birthday. my færies deck is even more annoying :D < 1452040817 398013 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: when are you visiting california to collect a bunch of cards twh < 1452040828 6897 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't magicked in ages, although I try to stay up to date with it constantly < 1452040839 782574 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, who knows (tm) < 1452040845 418787 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I neither play nor stay up to date. < 1452040852 541124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is mostly because Wizards' design goals are sort-of the opposite of those needed to create a good game < 1452040874 971261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically they try to rewrite the whole thing every six months) < 1452040875 820223 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean the design goal of making a lot of money forever? < 1452040880 713869 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I can get my hands on a copy of Ashes. the atwork looks nice. < 1452040892 143610 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: Someone tried to play that with me. < 1452040896 270194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well they state it as, they want to keep the game fresh, so they shake it up repeatedly < 1452040898 210281 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I complained a bunch and they got annoyed. < 1452040916 328793 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is basically because it gets stale very quickly because they're iterating so fast that they don't have time to make a deep game < 1452040964 997431 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that how it works, now? < 1452041000 656321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: they even got rid of the core set, apparently because they couldn't work out who it was for < 1452041010 909712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(answer: it was for people who wanted a well-tested and balanced game) < 1452041017 349528 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? like, 2k15 is the last core? < 1452041025 30361 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: Origins is. < 1452041026 340680 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: last core set is called "Magic Origins" < 1452041042 41039 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thwett, this523. < 1452041042 303280 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they changed their naming scheme for it for some reason < 1452041048 128928 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonsense. < 1452041070 901424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the core sets haven't really been proper core sets for a while, because they've also been included in the philosophy of shaking things up < 1452041082 368404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to trying to incrementally improve what they had < 1452041098 639312 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like formats like Tiny Leaders. you have to think hard to build something worthwile and play it well. < 1452041102 154238 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think this is why people like Legacy < 1452041110 346298 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: Tiny Leaders was solved IIRC, or mostly solved < 1452041122 281148 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! < 1452041130 664607 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :being basically Legacy but much more restricted, thus easier to work out the optimal play < 1452041150 507552 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not familiar with Tiny Leaders. < 1452041173 413215 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: it's Commander, but 50 card deck, and everything must have a CMC <=3. < 1452041213 847787 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you start with 25 hp, no rules about your commander doing a specific amount of damage, and it costs 2 colourless more each time you want to recast your commander. < 1452041233 993520 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila JOIN :#esoteric < 1452041355 355477 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Beeswax14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46087&oldid=46079 5* 03Albedo 5* (+34) 10/* Bitwise operations */ pipe and ! rendering < 1452041381 674802 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the most expensive Modern common cards are. < 1452041410 197659 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Beeswax14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46088&oldid=46087 5* 03Albedo 5* (+1) 10/* Global stack (gstack) instructions */ < 1452041472 526343 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Beeswax14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46089&oldid=46088 5* 03Albedo 5* (+17) 10/* Global stack (gstack) instructions */ < 1452041535 425617 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Beeswax14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46090&oldid=46089 5* 03Albedo 5* (+51) 10/* Arithmetic operations */ < 1452041548 299428 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like that'd be Serum Visions. < 1452041604 807916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the joke is, serum visions isn't even a good card < 1452041607 559070 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just all the better ones got banned < 1452041868 127089 :p34k!~p34k@nat-wh-wz4-12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de QUIT : < 1452042053 567802 :jaboja!~jaboja@esa18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1452042707 601970 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1452042892 655173 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1452043184 573767 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom < 1452043186 102445 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indonesia/Indonesia is a large island country in Asia and the world's most populous muslim country. Its major export is rayon textile from the Indonesian fnord. < 1452043219 960699 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something went wrong somewhere in that, but I can't pinpoint it. < 1452043350 480706 :Phantom___Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? fnord < 1452043351 931339 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1452043501 73684 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1452043503 41727 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​:-( \ 03(* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ butwhatifichangesomething \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dict-words \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ loudly é \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf < 1452043513 202099 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat < 1452043520 997860 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat cat < 1452043524 680739 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meow~~ >^.^< < 1452043529 822430 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1452043544 474799 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1452043649 430047 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` cat cat < 1452043650 789095 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meow~~ >^.^< < 1452044117 735313 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-02-1242510803.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :``words --gaelic < 1452044118 582674 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `words: not found < 1452044124 671866 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-02-1242510803.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --gaelic < 1452044126 113663 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghuil < 1452044130 466171 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-02-1242510803.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --gaelic 10 < 1452044131 906957 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgàlla diseaglaide ghòrr teach bhuile miosrat teasadh laid h-inn craoirb < 1452044140 217792 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-02-1242510803.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :h-inn? < 1452044238 115270 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-02-1242510803.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` words --russian < 1452044241 82795 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​электади < 1452044244 538448 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-02-1242510803.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` words --russian 10 < 1452044247 185051 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​асновомъ сстверяйте тькиепраштейские сакокладыге подвор полописы бабачившего ходингв прикоа хабастаю < 1452044376 827594 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as egregious Russian consonant clusters are, I highly doubt there are any words that begin with sstv. < 1452044395 712924 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` words --french 10 < 1452044397 933294 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wilit oaso impiusquerenceaux château touesourvi accompli hunt chémont ngit korfage < 1452044420 502522 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-02-1242510803.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :bhelloily < 1452044424 136294 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :château et accompli are legit. < 1452044428 28098 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he\\oren\. < 1452044446 652871 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` words --french 10 < 1452044448 614409 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :deki ductionn boursed rhumin aueniaisitabi cableite ble orons fsgt récieriazzo < 1452044463 935636 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-02-1242510803.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fsgt? < 1452044483 226531 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-02-1242510803.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ble is bleh < 1452044488 138272 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --norwegian 10 < 1452044489 891370 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sparakvaltningen forskningsavgivninjune høgsklæringer udekstrinensjefene førinstingen øybaroleteneseriaste bombyråene floakk formedisjonsbeslut snøbråsilkene < 1452044522 962954 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm I should write that intercal library I wanted to write < 1452044541 816822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: make sure you avoid number clashes :-) < 1452044543 728903 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-02-1242510803.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :floakk! < 1452044565 907954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are still a few groups of 1000 left but I advise you to stick to a group of 100 if you can, it'll save space < 1452044566 229952 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no you see < 1452044567 100718 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-02-1242510803.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` words --dutch 10 < 1452044568 476486 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown option: dutch < 1452044577 72920 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( bombyråene sounds like something that is just a political mistake away from existing ) < 1452044623 485456 :\oren\!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP140-02-1242510803.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :floakk sounds to be like a new, inventive swearword < 1452044638 477858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waits for the rest of coppro's sentence
< 1452044644 73964 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a floakk is an edible pastry. < 1452044645 927452 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :floakk obviously is a new and upcoming word describing all the overflowing sewers global warming will bring < 1452044654 614004 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the goal is to operand overload .4 to return a random number < 1452044668 366901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1452044673 191335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you still need some line numbers for that though :-) < 1452044684 275009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's .4 normally used for? < 1452044686 448428 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: i think you would be hard-pressed to get norwegians to eat something rhyming with kloakk hth < 1452044697 851776 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: probably as a general-purpose register < 1452044706 974496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's one of the argument registers < 1452044712 760932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :used by stdlib < 1452044718 558711 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they tend to be used in fairly consistent ways < 1452044727 991017 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think I can translate that without the help of any machine. bletch! < 1452044728 577201 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :err no wait < 1452044730 881644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for full xkcdness I guess you should overload #4 < 1452044732 698387 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not .4, #4 < 1452044736 522960 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1452044741 826214 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? fternooner < 1452044743 478100 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry. < 1452044751 413777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now what I'm wondering is whether you can put a CREATEd operator into an operand overload < 1452044764 56272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strikes me as the only way to get nondeterministic overloads < 1452044786 389054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is no, although perhaps there's some way to make it work? < 1452044794 839777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to redo that code anyway to work violin into it < 1452044809 695915 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there's no reason it wouldn't work for a forward use < 1452044815 54525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what about a reverse assignment? < 1452044824 160124 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about quantumly overloading it? < 1452044852 926704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a CLC-INTERCAL thing which is more like multithreading than anything else < 1452044859 227891 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! c-intercal DO READ OUT #4 DO GIVE UP < 1452044860 403266 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/c-intercal: not found < 1452044864 107484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! cintercal DO READ OUT #4 DO GIVE UP < 1452044871 422419 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ \ IV < 1452044911 894546 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! cintercal DO .1 <- .1/#4 DO .1 <- #5 DO READ OUT #4 PLEASE GIVE UP < 1452044914 782083 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICL277I YOU CAN ONLY DISTORT THE LAWS OF MATHEMATICS SO FAR \ ON THE WAY TO 1 \ CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT < 1452044925 472620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it doesn't run with -v by default < 1452044930 713579 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :need to try this locally < 1452044963 146176 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: i thought so too < 1452045050 679776 :hppavilion[2]!~Devourero@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1452045180 263153 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tea < 1452045181 382361 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tea? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1452045188 191938 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? fentimans < 1452045189 755206 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack. < 1452045729 296668 :Phantom___Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :`?fternooner < 1452045731 420836 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?fternooner: not found < 1452045736 342270 :Phantom___Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? fternooner < 1452045739 275596 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry. < 1452045782 534483 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? nutritive < 1452045785 249987 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nutritive? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1452045810 49855 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Hexham < 1452045814 109193 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico < 1452045824 317985 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? beverage < 1452045827 501891 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :beverage? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1452045836 769610 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1452045838 247809 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​¯\(°​_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1452045842 711011 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1452045855 432123 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: IMPALER CHICKEN < 1452045929 130431 :hppavilion[2]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1452046462 877375 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1452046608 645032 :Phantom___Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1452047421 203955 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zgrep: they're not actually identical, although your client may accidentally convert between them when pasting < 1452047631 16094 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, with myndzi gone the reasons may no longer be obvious. < 1452047684 800274 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a combining overline vs. non-combining difference? < 1452047692 164145 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some such < 1452047710 917667 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some nonprintable within it maybe < 1452047724 499589 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nonprintable < 1452047752 721907 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` \? hutenosa | unidecode < 1452047754 356357 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1452047793 234019 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably would've been too long output either way < 1452047809 381358 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hutenosa < 1452047810 843801 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hutenosa? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1452047841 783960 :andrew!~andrew@61.141.94.171 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452047845 119496 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. unidecode doesn't pipe. < 1452047862 395753 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1452047863 946843 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1452047864 901194 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :give my myzinda < 1452047866 795153 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :please < 1452047870 730555 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ < 1452047872 938664 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ < 1452047875 379143 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: SORRY < 1452047876 485021 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :whyyy < 1452047881 324229 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :crying face < 1452047883 661215 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` \? z | xargs unidecode < 1452047885 211832 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z] [U+003F QUESTION MARK] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+00AF MACRON] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+00AF MACRON] < 1452047893 439299 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ < 1452047895 500659 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :myzindi < 1452047897 845333 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm, ZWSP < 1452047908 370616 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas there is no myndzi < 1452047910 228427 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you need xargs. < 1452047913 322216 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1452047916 478755 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens ; < 1452047927 469512 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: we get signal < 1452047966 193728 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :someobedy set up us the bong < 1452047968 966316 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1452047970 659955 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hm, I have a habit of doing foo | xargs bar instead of bar "$(foo)" for some reason < 1452047987 733628 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1452048076 670485 :andrew!~andrew@61.141.94.171 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1452048128 152532 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw you all probably heard about this but someone did brainfu8ck in printf! < 1452048134 3208 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was pretty impressed < 1452048138 317060 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :the %n thing is ridiculous < 1452048158 334292 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i knew it could be used to start off code exec < 1452048170 637309 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this guy did all the computation in a format string < 1452048242 165434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: I heard people reference it but didn't see the original < 1452048244 165803 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1452048291 346266 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1452048316 872879 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1452048319 530520 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/HexHive/printbf < 1452048323 82900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1452048324 470451 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to find it that takes finite time < 1452048340 358004 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, just "sure" is a weird way to express that so I was a little confused < 1452048355 39787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it might be that you were looking for the link but wasn't sure < 1452048360 574088 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah i love these "found" computers < 1452048380 676727 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROP is my favorite because it's like moss growing in the cracks of a wall < 1452048453 582433 :andrew!~andrew@61.141.94.171 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452048478 527595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila: I was messing about with them even before I'd heard of esolangs < 1452048486 352637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :called it "alternate programming" < 1452048490 219314 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats so cool :D < 1452048498 779318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but most of the things I looked at were very sub-TC < 1452048502 491156 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if i was befoer i heard about esolangs < 1452048505 831600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like MS Paint < 1452048509 435038 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :subTC is really interesting < 1452048534 918163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although now I'm wondering, what if you run it in monochrome mode so that the fill tool does patterns? still subTC but might be more powerful) < 1452048545 698528 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1452048546 547795 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1452048557 403331 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably some modular arithmetic stuff becomes possible with paterns < 1452048630 296130 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I believe it might. < 1452048672 528841 :jaboja!~jaboja@esa18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1452048724 131291 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah, they're not identical! :D < 1452048745 404212 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1452048746 785741 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​¯\(°_o)/¯ `? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1452048762 668564 :mauris_!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1452048786 90800 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1452048857 160274 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1452048858 627045 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​¯\(°_o)/¯ `? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1452048873 149421 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1452048889 941534 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, my client does not do that. HackEgo was using ¯\(°​_o)/¯ and I copied that. < 1452048939 630766 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1452049006 770717 :mauris__!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1452049211 668728 :mauris_!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1452049231 375165 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zgrep: oh hm right. i was misremembering which way the wisdom goes. < 1452049424 579460 :mauris__!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl PRIVMSG #esoteric :today i had the sudden realization that "myndzi" is probably pronounced as/derived from "mind's eye" < 1452049462 945403 :mauris__!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i'd been mentally pronouncing it as min-dzee AND I WON'T STOP) < 1452049559 838039 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :==mauris__ < 1452049805 134819 :hppavilion[2]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1452049978 861807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that construction relies on printf reading the format string lazily < 1452049988 445549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, most printfs will, there's no reason to scan it in advance < 1452050001 692417 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than to prevent specifically that exploit < 1452050109 743841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also suspect it's sub-TC due to stack underflow < 1452050140 389331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually printf will be reading arguments from stack locations that are before the start of the stack, and even if you have arbitrary control over memory, you still can't write to an unmapped address < 1452050471 382825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"nginx rewrote their own version of printf() and removed “ %n ”" < 1452050482 156692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, that's one way to avoid format string vulnerabilities :-) < 1452050836 595907 :jaboja!~jaboja@esa18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1452050987 495752 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SQL function "PRINTF" in SQLite also disables "%n" < 1452051126 656538 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The internal code still implements it, it just disables it when the list of arguments is a list of dynamically-typed SQL values) < 1452051152 778830 :mauris__!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1452055179 914472 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cewwpbzdrfqvzjif JOIN :#esoteric < 1452055468 265574 :singingboyo!~brandonso@d50-98-172-252.bchsia.telus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1452055574 622093 :jaboja!~jaboja@esa18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1452056409 143867 :hppavilion[2]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1452056474 720493 :jaboja!~jaboja@esa18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1452056531 918334 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDream < 1452057340 793930 :^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1452057793 626183 :^v^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Network ban < 1452058095 718481 :hppavilion[2]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll create an Esolangs community on Google+ < 1452058099 713139 :hppavilion[2]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, I already did xD < 1452058117 580774 :hppavilion[2]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just published a short article/advertisement of the community on the Programming G+ community < 1452058236 751925 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1452058684 707041 :jaboja!~jaboja@esa18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1452059662 821897 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1452059824 569266 :jaboja!~jaboja@esa18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1452059936 230950 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have other ideas to make custom Magic: the Gathering cards or puzzle or variant rule or whatever else? < 1452060683 752076 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1452061226 976931 :singingboyo!~brandonso@d50-98-172-252.bchsia.telus.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1452061336 832185 :hppavilion[2]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay! Someon reshared my post on Brainfuck! < 1452061393 886752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: one I have made: cost {G}, instant, effect "Look at the top three cards of your library. You may put a land card from among them onto the battlefield. Place the rest on top of your library in any order." < 1452061691 411464 :hppavilion[2]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net NICK :hppavilion[1[ < 1452061694 851867 :hppavilion[1[!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net NICK :hppavilion[1] < 1452061730 107826 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK thanks, what did you call it and do you think it is reasonable? < 1452061753 400246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't called it anything yet, and I think it's reasonable: the aim was to create a green cantrip-like spell to compete with the blue ones in Legacy < 1452061760 774176 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1452061818 757399 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1452061822 171980 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1452061857 246418 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you make the database or card list file or whatever? Or even posted this idea anywhere else than right here right now? < 1452061915 814697 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, how can I do in Linux, I want to use the mail system but treat local mail differently from mail received remotely, and also to use a different SMTP server for sending than for receiving messages. For example I do not want the email address to contain local usernames, but if a local user types something like "mail user1" then it is a local username. < 1452061940 982589 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make something stronger than Serum Visions but weaker than Ponder and have Wizards pick it up < 1452061944 983062 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :Need something modern legal ;) < 1452061945 142023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I haven't posted most of my ideas online, that was the first time I posted one I think < 1452061950 573401 :jaboja!~jaboja@esa18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1452061960 315081 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haavard: preordain is such a card, but it's also banned in modern < 1452061969 958054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's opt but it's even weaker than serum visions I think < 1452062107 782126 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One idea I had is "You may force target player to draw three cards" (a variant of Jace's Ingenuity, except that you can force other players to draw cards too, like Ancestral Recall but costs more and is abortable) < 1452062151 475074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that's worded "you may have target player draw three cards" I think < 1452062170 794157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the situations in which you'd abort such a spell are very rare < 1452062180 81684 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I doubt Wizards would print it because it'd mean extra clicks in Magic Online < 1452062440 466806 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't expect Wizards of the Coast to really print any of my stuff; it is mainly for use in custom games < 1452063056 669490 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ancestral Recall was originally designed to allow you to force opponent to draw cards as well as you (although it can now be used on teammates too; when it was designed there was no team game). Many cards only work on you and I don't like it much < 1452063214 281287 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do now have the service to post the comments of my custom cards on the webpage, by use of web browser or curl. However, these custom cards are also available as plain text and SQLite database (the SQLite database includes the user comments too). < 1452063216 208556 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, that's a nice card. if it was a sorcery rather than an instant, then it looks plausibly printable. < 1452063265 27064 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/pointcounterpoint-targeted-card-draw-2012-03-23 http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/pointcounterpoint-targeted-card-draw-2012-03-28 < 1452063266 345229 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't you write comment on my card yet? We should put it there in the place so that also other people even if on different IRC or not at all can also to read/write comment same including to reply < 1452063269 981639 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there are some blue cards that can have anyone draw cards, but they aren't optional (as in "may") usually, and they're rare because it's not worth the extra text over just "Draw three cards." < 1452063275 950363 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you want an instant or a sorcery? < 1452063283 90136 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for card draw, instant sometimes has extra cost < 1452063293 904748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: those are articles by R&D arguing the case for and against card draw spells having targets, respectively < 1452063304 743922 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The card I described is an instant, and has the same cost as Jace's Ingenuity, it is what I designed it as. < 1452063374 157564 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look it the file to see < 1452063440 48608 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there's Inspiration; Deep Analysis; Opportunity each of them lets you choose any player < 1452063796 705687 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please look my card (there are some new ones) and write comment too < 1452064115 327909 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about a language that is ENTIRELY monads < 1452064136 1297 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not like haskell, which is AFAICT functions with a side of monads (used for side effects) < 1452064143 21713 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just pure, monady goodness < 1452064149 771149 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: I don't actually understand monads < 1452064237 615875 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :functions are a monad too hth < 1452064248 922465 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh right < 1452064259 295950 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shit < 1452064267 335899 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1452064296 47932 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, a lot of the other monads are wrappers over functions < 1452064307 125453 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unmtl State s a < 1452064307 686313 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :s -> (a, s) < 1452064415 536933 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Exactly. The idea was to restrict monads. < 1452064453 106084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@help unmtl < 1452064453 265915 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :unroll mtl monads < 1452064490 42746 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's not so much a wrapper, as identifying functions that happen to have a monadic form, isn't it? < 1452064537 433686 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's a wrapper for type inference to find the right arguments < 1452064542 625480 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src State < 1452064543 53264 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. Are you typing with your feet? < 1452064546 584639 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src StateT < 1452064547 18856 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. Do you think like you type? < 1452064555 938057 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and @src is reliable as always < 1452064599 146348 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's ambiguous: < 1452064623 634287 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unmtl ReaderT s (Writer s) a < 1452064624 92936 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :s -> (a, s) < 1452064634 291223 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :same function, different monad. < 1452066433 734837 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1452066497 145725 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1452067109 758178 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1452067124 92624 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1452067129 144994 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I looked at part of the first one so far < 1452067154 327100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the first one agrees with you (although possibly has different reasoning), the secondd one disagrees < 1452067170 403215 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However as I have shown there are even more possibilities < 1452067191 977493 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think both kind of card are OK to have in the game. < 1452067457 573627 :andrew_!~andrew@61.141.94.171 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452067470 172196 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do believe it should be targeted by default though, although nevertheless with many different kind of card available can make the game more diverse. < 1452067498 928860 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, there are joke mosquitos < 1452067576 306529 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Puzzles are also one point in such diversity, but not the only reason < 1452067690 572528 :andrew!~andrew@61.141.94.171 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1452068434 175205 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at the two versions of "Raging Centaur" in the second article. They say many people prefer the first, although to me I prefer the second, not only because 1 more toughness but there may be possibility of advantage of the ability (which they even admit). However, the second version does have a clear disadvantage in Commander. < 1452068583 686988 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: because it's harder to fit into decks? < 1452068599 587755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're playing BG anyway it's better I think < 1452068740 412608 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So back to my idea about 3-sign numbers for no apparent reason < 1452068761 661884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: have you seen quaternions? < 1452068765 291997 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :~x, $x, &x. Or something like that. < 1452068767 727664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have 8 signs though < 1452068773 837594 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, hasn't everyone? < 1452068775 477041 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, if you are playing both black and green it is better even in Commander. < 1452068793 281884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: I'm pretty sure at least one person hasn't < 1452068796 74128 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are not playing black then you cannot use it in Commander. < 1452068799 721851 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm going for a simple extension of the naturals < 1452068837 865488 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well yes, we're excluding Roger when we discuss this sort of thing. < 1452068840 598337 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do three signs include +? < 1452068844 693866 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1452068863 919130 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: It's just notation, so you could say it does, or doesn't, or that it doesn't matter in the slightest. < 1452069002 193626 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: what rules do your system obey? for example, is ~0 = $0 = &0 or not? < 1452069035 179578 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: Yes, 0 is signless (or all signs, or its own sign) < 1452069047 470243 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: The craziest thing is that this actually has a use somewhere < 1452069068 880905 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is ~1 + $2? < 1452069071 670727 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1452069084 666361 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: Still working on that xD < 1452069085 330999 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number system is meaningless without governing rules < 1452069092 452717 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh. < 1452069124 117361 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, hyperoperations. m[~4]b = m log b, whereas m[&4]b = the mth root of b < 1452069132 51418 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Why I chose m and b, I have no idea) < 1452069160 923999 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And m[$4]b = m[4]b = m**b < 1452069191 877306 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: I think I'll start with unary operations < 1452069242 899328 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :&$1 = ~1, $&1 = ~1, ~$1 = &1, $~1 = &1, ~&1 = $1, &~1 = $1 < 1452069259 661361 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And $$1 = &1, &&1 = ~1, and ~~1 = $1 < 1452069325 896233 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully, that's consistent if we substitute x for 1 < 1452069333 882447 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, basically N x Z_3 < 1452069346 207334 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: ? < 1452069369 222635 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :m < 1452069371 257736 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I accidentally just invent modular arithmetic with funny notation? xD < 1452069425 998993 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: since 0 is signless, not exactly equivalent < 1452069445 104372 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, isomorphic < 1452069455 718721 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :~&$1 = ~~1 = $1 < 1452069463 129547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: how does addition work in N × Z₃? < 1452069474 294707 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :~&$1 = ~$&1, of course < 1452069480 657988 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: afair there is only one group with 3 elements < 1452069495 125133 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: depends. couöd be element wise < 1452069521 337298 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Um? Umlaut? < 1452069522 726252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but that wouldn't act very like normal addition < 1452069533 120114 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :could < 1452069538 619613 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, subtraction wouldn't really work at all < 1452069542 758390 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ö is right next to l < 1452069546 699577 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: also, if it *were* Z_3, then some sign should behave differently from others (and that would be the identity) but it doesn't seem so < 1452069549 771870 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does x mean in N x Z₃? < 1452069578 645768 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: oh, right < 1452069585 922389 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: cross product < 1452069586 693887 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But I probably wouldn't do traditional subtraction; I'd do subtraction adjusted for my weird 3-sign system < 1452069589 754142 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah? < 1452069602 595728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: I was basically asing what addition meant < 1452069607 622212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: not cartesian product? < 1452069620 654105 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yeah < 1452069633 328449 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: I'm tempting to think it as an extension of GF(4), but not sure, I don't know enough group theory after all < 1452069664 646187 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe (should) $$x = x, ~~x = x, &&x = x < 1452069695 849893 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The above was a failed attempt to use Haskell-like syntax in speech) < 1452069784 20935 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I never said it was a group or a ring or anything; just that it's numeric and has 3 signs < 1452069812 238560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: well yes, you still want to define addition and subtractoin in a mostly addition/subtraction-like way, though, don't you? < 1452069813 141388 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd probably have its own entirely alien set of operations < 1452069843 452540 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Addition if I can, but subtraction doesn't make sense because x-y = x+(-y) < 1452069866 529390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: x+y-y=x < 1452069881 251144 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you just don't have - then < 1452069881 447872 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, that too < 1452069890 5034 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Exactly < 1452069893 135135 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :x ~ y, x $ y < 1452069900 766079 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :x & y < 1452069901 547683 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it should be more the $, &, and ~ subtraction-like operations < 1452069908 71028 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit, you beat me xD < 1452069991 375724 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This will all make hyperoperations much more difficult, not having - xD < 1452070004 425829 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1452070004 913565 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And just /imagine/ the order theory 0.o < 1452070019 431909 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Look up the definition of the hyperoperations and note the - < 1452070038 964351 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :These 3-sign numbers, btw, are JUST for the hyperoperations index; not for the operands < 1452070042 905802 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for now) < 1452070286 825504 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2253 it's funny 'cause it's true < 1452071043 784574 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like the card "Cleansing" even allow you to pay life to protect opponent's lands too. < 1452071539 630563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1452071723 116275 :hppavilion[1]!~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1452072225 981737 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.228 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452072783 468524 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How exactly does Cut the Tethers work? Does first the active player choose which spirits they own to pay for, possibly activates mana abilities and makes all the payments, then the other players make choices after those payments are done, and finally spirits are returned to their owner's hands? < 1452072825 267716 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what happens if some permanents become Spirits, or new Spirits are put into play (eg. by Forbidden Orchard), or some Spirits change ownership while paying? < 1452072905 509368 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me to see the rules to see if it mention its working < 1452072943 602451 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I know it doesn't seem to mention "for each" effects but I may be misremembering < 1452072985 233273 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if not "for each" specifically, there are lots of general rules that may be covering this. < 1452073074 685025 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rules ought to define what "for each" means in order to make it clear. < 1452073093 275770 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's rule 101.4 and stuff like that < 1452073340 129656 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rule 101.4 describes APNAP order, although it also gives an example, which may be of use. < 1452073506 185010 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does rule 608.2g apply? < 1452073652 523066 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still fails to explain exactly what "for each" means though < 1452073705 659115 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm asking on efnet/#mtgrules currently < 1452073884 182773 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452073966 550186 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it is like this: the active player chooses which Spirits to avoid returning, and then the nonactive player does, and then each player who chose to avoid returning can activate mana abilities, and then the mana is paid, and then all are returned simultaneously. I am not sure though; it may be wrong. < 1452074110 408856 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(What I mean is that before that, it is determined which permanents are Spirits and all of those ones are selected) < 1452074178 555032 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it just seems unclear to me. < 1452074211 336536 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that would be very hard to imagine, because my payments can influence not only the set of spirits, but also how the opponent can activate mana abilities and/or how much mana he can get from them < 1452074223 638824 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: so I don't see how you could make all the choices before paying < 1452074323 315826 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :efnet/SFT says, without referring to rules, that first the set of spirits is locked in, then the active player makes all choices and does all payment, then the other players do all payment, then the other spirits remembered are returned < 1452074357 237198 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cleansing is, incidentally, more horrible. < 1452074399 38996 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:Brainfuck14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46091&oldid=45679 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+1172) 10/* Shortest known "hello world" program. */ new section < 1452074439 591122 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did realize that the set of Spirits must be locked in first, as the rules seem to mean that. < 1452074443 553583 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: care to weigh in? The question is how resolving Cut the Tethers works, since when paying mana abilities, the set of Spirits may change. < 1452074453 864078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look at that card < 1452074498 56862 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" How exactly does Cut the Tethers work? Does first the active player choose which spirits they own to pay for, possibly activates mana abilities and makes all the payments, then the other players make choices after those payments are done, and finally spirits are returned to their owner's hands?" < 1452074538 987999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say you iterate over the spirits in turn in the usual order (I forget what that is) and for each spirit, when you come to it in the iteration, you can pay {3}, if you don't and it's still on the battlefield it bounces < 1452074554 513979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure though, don't have the rules memorized < 1452074559 536745 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly we should be asking coppro about this < 1452074604 679651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what's the most ridiculous possible situation? I'm trying to figure out a way for a card to become a Spirit as the result of paying a mana ability) < 1452074623 682076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which probably involves sacrificing an animated enchantment that's disabling the creature type somehow) < 1452074672 982613 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since rule 610.3 and Banishing Light, you can even have new spirits enter the battlefield when activating a mana ability. < 1452074719 770268 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think the set of Spirits must be initially locked in, and that choices are made in APNAP order; but again I don't know. However, even so, the rest seem unclear to me < 1452074725 585299 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sacrifice a liquimetal-coated Lignify to a Krark-Clan Ironworks to turn a card back to a spirit < 1452074727 157831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, you use opalescence to animate a banishing light, then sacrifice it to phyrexian altar? < 1452074739 902469 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, we had much the same idea there < 1452074768 991338 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sacrifice a liquimetal-coated Banishing Light to return a Spirit to the battlefield < 1452074816 166368 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there's a Phyrexian Altar? that might be even better! I was using Ashnod's Altar in my examples < 1452074834 890813 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although Ashnod's Altar is cheaper apparently < 1452074839 755303 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's uncommon < 1452074851 743257 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There may even be situations in the game where you would want to ensure to do something during a mana step in order to avoid state-based actions that would otherwise occur in between the mana abilities being activated. < 1452074860 242101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbf ashnod's altar is probably better too < 1452074872 878614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :{2} is better than one mana of any colour IMO < 1452074875 67850 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, Ashnod's Altar is more powerful in a real game < 1452074962 490620 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there are also cycles of land that have mana abilities that sacrifice that land, which can (in theory, not likely in real games) affect how much mana an opponent can pay with Exotic Orchard or Felwar Stone < 1452074987 750019 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Felwar/Fellwar/ < 1452075010 436554 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, let's ask coppro < 1452075012 179123 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ^ < 1452075016 415206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or reflecting pool < 1452075030 113393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually there are quite a lot of effects like that < 1452075040 917479 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reflecting Pool is on your own mana < 1452075058 325865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, same problem for this example < 1452075060 891687 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course Ahnod's Altar or Krark-Clan Ironworks can directly sacrifice lands or mana-producing artifacts < 1452075074 498236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although cut the tethers doesn't care about colour, we can make it care by sacrificing the last colour-producing land < 1452075083 39780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which might be, say, a dryad arbor) < 1452075102 16051 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: color matters because if I no longer own a land that produces any _colored_ mana, then the opponent's Exotic Orchard can't produce mana at all < 1452075108 908437 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's what I said < 1452075139 932974 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befana YOU PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THIS?!? < 1452075141 584064 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF?! < 1452075194 63084 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look this up, there were rules clearly stating that at least for paying the mana costs of a spell or ability, you choose how to pay for everything first, then make the payments all together, but the payments have to be possible, or something < 1452075201 579343 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :With Cleansing I suppose it might work by first locking the set of all lands, and then the active player chooses which to protect (they don't have to be his own) and pays, and then the nonactive player chooses which to protect (he may choose ones that are already protected) and pays, and then all unprotected lands are destroyed simultaneously. Is that it? I don't know < 1452075221 808240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm trying to figure out a set of langs which can't collectively all be tapped for mana, but which can individually all be tapped for mana < 1452075340 824042 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there are lots of lands that can produce _more_ mana if you sacrifice them, but you can still get fewer mana from them < 1452075374 773230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, I didn't mean like that < 1452075436 962808 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :These kind of thing are reasons why I would intend to design the new card game by writing the rules as a literate computer program with mathematical definitions included, and then the cards also have computer codes associated with them. This way can make the rules much more clear! < 1452075462 953212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have had thoughts about trading card game design < 1452075492 494288 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are designed to eliminate memorized information (i.e. all information about the gamestate is conveyed by the position of the cards), and yet be reasonably flexible in how the rules work < 1452075538 42527 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I would also probably intend to design a new literate programming system for this purpose, one thing being to arrange sections in the way which is more suitable for this kind of document. Also probably it will compile into a new VM called CardVM made for this purpose, so it is even a new VM too) < 1452075715 22499 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's strange lands like Lake of the Dead < 1452075890 155435 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That does look like reasonable I suppose, although it doesn't seem to address the kind of issues that I address? < 1452075911 178058 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well there's nothing inherently open-source or closed-source about rules < 1452075954 174267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd also have a streamlined computer interface compared to Magic because most of the decisions you could make would be small numbers of choices from large sets, rather than large numbers of choices from small sets < 1452076045 733786 :andrew_!~andrew@61.141.94.171 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1452076254 759027 :andrew_!~andrew@61.141.94.171 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452076317 19074 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you miss the point. While these things I am suggesting would be open-source, it is not the point I am trying to make. < 1452076388 89379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you think they should be in a programming language not natural language so that they're clearer to enforce < 1452076389 156028 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, it should somehow make sure not to have to ask for choices from both players very frequently that are irrelevant for the game most of the time, such as the order triggers go to the stack, the order objects simultanously entering a zone get their timestamps, which replacement effect is applied when there is more than one possible, etc. < 1452076400 313403 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ such as the order triggers go to the stack, the order objects simultanously entering a zone get their timestamps, which replacement effect is applied when there is more than one possible, etc. < 1452076401 448762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but Hearthstone and MTGO both work like that, just the rules are closed-souce < 1452076407 284260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*closed-source < 1452076446 948032 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently there are lots of lands from before modern that sacrifice themselves for mana, and I didn't really know about them. < 1452076447 561425 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I can see that, and yet it is a kind of problem, since then it is difficult to know the rules of the game. I don't mean enforcing the rules, I mean even just knowing the rules! < 1452076453 481342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: probably the biggest choice I made was to not have replacement or triggered abilities; rather, all abilities are activated (for drawback abilities your opponent can activate them for you) < 1452076490 62661 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sixth edition has a cycle of uncommon lands like Svyelunite Temple that tap for M, or tap and sacrifice for MM; < 1452076490 908432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also activated abilities that work from the graveyard only work on the top card in the graveyard < 1452076515 945171 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That idea about the top card of graveyard I have actually had too < 1452076559 164179 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Odyssey has a cycle of uncommon lands like Seafloor Debris that tap for M, or tap and sacrifice for one mana of any color. < 1452076567 521241 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of death triggers, basically you just activate the card once it reaches the graveyard < 1452076588 440209 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But some of my other ideas would include that the game is design to work whether or not a computer is in use, and that CardVM is completely independent of the user interface and server and client and so on; it only implements game rules and nothing else. < 1452076598 606026 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Invasion has a cycle of common lands like Ancient Spring that tap for M or tap and sacrifice for DE in allied colors. < 1452076634 144136 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Maybe you may also intend that the stack (if any) is only for cards and not activated abilities? It seem to fit what you have said earlier < 1452076639 72367 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to understand what's being discussed here < 1452076647 946594 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you designing a new card game? < 1452076648 105340 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And apart from these three cycles, there are several individual lands like this: Archaeological Dig is an uncommon in invasion that taps for 1 or taps and sacrifices for one mana of any one color. < 1452076662 227245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, in order to activate an ability you move the card itself to the stack < 1452076674 374947 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haavard: we're discussing potential designs that new card games could use < 1452076676 363211 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crystal Vein is a strange land that taps and sacrifices for 2. < 1452076697 572060 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ah, OK, yes that works too < 1452076718 585270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the ability tells you where to put the card once it resolves < 1452076731 681017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can whether it's a cast or an ability by where the card is on the stack < 1452076747 763349 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are so many cards in Magic and I'm learning about them in a slow pace, and can't keep up with how fast they're published. < 1452076751 594614 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as if it is placed forward or turned right do you mean? < 1452076754 375647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this also means that most activated abilities can only be cast in response to something, which adds strategy to the ame) < 1452076754 571709 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. And why is b_jonas and zzo38 looking for sac-lands? :P < 1452076767 380724 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, it's based on whether it's the bottom of the stack or higher < 1452076785 448988 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you can only respond to your opponent's actions, not your own (this greatly reduces the number of priority passes) < 1452076796 789464 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is something to do too < 1452076809 293830 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are interesting ideas < 1452076881 406 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can prevent your opponent activating abilities by just not doing anything, but this is probably a bad idea because you're basically giving your opponent free attacks < 1452076892 908921 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haavard: I'm looking for sac lands because some of those seem to be practically usable so I should buy them, but also they are lands with tap mana abilities that sacrifice a permanent immediately, which has strange rules consequences, somewhat similarly to Krark-Clan Ironworks, Ashnod's Altar, Phyrexian Altar. < 1452076922 826376 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I like this you can design such card game too < 1452076956 346793 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of strange rules consequences are these, b_jonas? < 1452076983 547864 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least the latter ones don't have a tap in them, so they don't trigger "a land is tapped for" rules, although their abilities can still be copied to a land with Quicksilver Elemental or Experiment Kraj and so they can affect Fellwar.) < 1452077023 553110 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind you, there's also Phyrexian Tower, which is a land that taps and sacrifices any creature for mana, so it's ruleswise the most horrible. < 1452077052 740151 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the phyrexians are like that < 1452077089 689845 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haavard: strange rules consequences because you can often activate mana abilities in strange times, like while a player is resolving a spell or ability, or when paying for attack restrictions. < 1452077095 755380 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should get Datatog in here. < 1452077100 502748 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: That means you can even sacrifice a creature during a mana step < 1452077113 180895 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I see.. < 1452077122 682324 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I looked up those common and uncommon lands because I should consider buying some of them. They are cheaper than the Vivid lands. < 1452077146 910672 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can active multiple mana ability, even to avoid state-based action in between if doing it during a mana step < 1452077159 387079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: so say you have yet another æther vortex in play, and you sacrifice a panglacial wurm on top of your library to phyrexian tower to pay for itself < 1452077163 608398 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of like how Selvala also has weird interactions if she fails to produce enough mana < 1452077192 976817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haavard: I think the public Magic rules question answering services ended up vetoing selvala + panglacial wurm questions after a bit < 1452077288 767856 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the one where you search your library, right? < 1452077308 293410 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you reveal at the same time, and end up having to reverse everything etc. < 1452077332 37319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haavard: it's the one that can be cast from your library while you're searching it < 1452077336 284861 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would completely rewrite the rules for what can be reversed and what happens if impossible < 1452077370 56277 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the main complexity here is that selvala lets you draw a card while you're searching your library, so you need to have kept the library in order during the search < 1452077390 493540 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing so requires introducing the concepts of "entropy" and "transactional controller" < 1452077393 296951 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(luckily you can't draw the panglacial wurm itself because I think it's on the stack at that point? which also answers my æther vortex question) < 1452077426 445748 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It seem clear to me how it works, although outside of a puzzle it may be less clear what to do about it I suppose < 1452077483 546180 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also "automatically losing on time" < 1452077543 863645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in a tournament, you play 5 turns after time runs out, it's a draw if nobody wins in that time < 1452077554 936623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's because it's normally very hard to determine who's responsible for the game going slowly < 1452077568 514928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with all the priority passes involved < 1452077685 254502 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is also unimportant in puzzles, although I happen to just like the puzzles much more than actual play game anyways < 1452077866 313875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really like the gameplay either, I just like the mental exercise of thinking about the game < 1452077873 168565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly in terms of hypothetical mental deckbuilding < 1452077901 372884 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at my puzzles and see if you can figure it out! < 1452077938 717981 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: puzzles? < 1452078032 357256 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I made many puzzles of Magic: the Gathering. (Other people have also made many) < 1452078051 840503 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat, got a link? Sounds like fun < 1452078101 841475 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. They are http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.1 up to puzzle.6 (although puzzle.1 isn't very good, the rest are better) < 1452078162 252386 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can look up card texts on Gatherer or something else) < 1452078181 685150 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know rules of Magic: the Gathering? If you do not, then it is difficult. < 1452078224 246563 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty familiar with the rules, yeah < 1452078235 68660 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll check these out later when I'm off work :) < 1452078256 812552 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1452078351 956000 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also made up several custom cards (none are used in the puzzles though, nor are these custom cards necessarily fixed), in case you have interest in such thing as that too < 1452078635 554484 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really find custom Magic interesting unless it's joke cards or something like that < 1452078790 100241 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did make joke cards too but I keep it in a separate file < 1452079394 891929 :bender|!benderpc@2404:e800:e61a:41d:88a5:ad2:6a78:9cd9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452079679 933222 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452079811 228930 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" so say you have yet another æther vortex in play, and you sacrifice a panglacial wurm on top of your library to phyrexian tower to pay for itself" -- I don't think that works, because you have to move the card to the stack before deciding how to pay for it. < 1452079829 105799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right, I noticed that later < 1452079849 275598 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this "selvala"? < 1452079898 109885 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" (luckily you can't draw the panglacial wurm itself because I think it's on the stack at that point? which also answers my æther vortex question)" - ah good < 1452079951 312813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: selvala has a mana ability where everyone reveals-and-draws a card and you add mana to your mana pool equal to the number of lands revealed < 1452079971 510845 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which IMO is one of the worst mistakes from a rules perspective ever made < 1452079974 861565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in M:tG < 1452080006 605188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be the number of nonlands revealed, can't remember which, but lands makes more sense really < 1452080018 174958 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, Selvala: Explorer Returned from Conspiracy? < 1452080023 336887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1452080106 10979 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is that much worse than mana abilities that let you sacrifice any creature or any artifact? Sacrificing an artifact can cause permanents to return to play, lots of characteristic changes, and also players losing the game. < 1452080156 806658 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my opinion the problem is the rules about rewinding, which could be fixed much better, and avoid some of these problems < 1452080238 870195 :tromp__!~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net QUIT : < 1452080264 116838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: because you can't tell with certainty how much mana you're going to get < 1452080275 467463 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you could cast llanowar elves or something like that with only selvala to pay for it < 1452080295 785530 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see, the problem is that it adds a variable amount of mana to your pool, so you can't decide how to pay and then do all the payments. < 1452080296 813224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then turns out you get 0 mana off the mana ability, but now everyone has looked at the top card of their library < 1452080298 746914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1452080329 656180 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO that ability should have been restricted to being cast at instant speed < 1452080342 396144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's really no reason to be able to do it at mana ability speed; the cases where that matters are really obscure < 1452080342 922816 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is a problem, but it isn't a big problem, in the sense that it can be fixed easily with a rules change on 605.1 to turn that ability not a mana ability. < 1452080367 977991 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they can still fix that by changing the comprehensive rules or the oracle text of that card < 1452080369 770216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some kind of mana leak effect with split second would do it) < 1452080372 138852 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would do very differently fixed < 1452080374 609776 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right, and I hope they do < 1452080417 59496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you can get variable mana payments even without selvala, can't you? sacrifice something that doubles mana output as a means of generating mana < 1452080426 145136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference there is that it's not a random factor, you know in advance that it's going to happen < 1452080439 878923 :andrew_!~andrew@61.141.94.171 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1452080449 306392 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't have enough mana, the player in the process of casting the spell concedes if he has not already seen the top card of his opponent's library. < 1452080460 430818 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric : That is how I would write the rules < 1452080465 272397 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have there already been a way, before Selvala, to find out about hidden information during a mana ability? I think there probably has been, but I wonder how. < 1452080504 764192 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it's a mana ability where you know exactly what mana it will give. < 1452080523 584009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: mana abilities that draw cards as a side effect while lantern of insight is in play < 1452080531 13202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there are a few mana filterers that also draw cards) < 1452080535 72382 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some mana ability to draw cards, and there are also replacement effects that can cause various stuff < 1452080591 684977 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: (a) what mana ability draws cards as a side effect, and (b) no, I think there's a specific rule for drawing cards to stop this, < 1452080619 214787 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The Gatherer rulings tell you not to look at those cards, although the rules of the game seem to say no such thing; my proposed way of fixing the rules would be that if you do choose to look at the card that makes it unreversible and forces you to concede if there is no other possibility) < 1452080622 365756 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :401.5 although that's restricted. < 1452080632 779622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: chromatic sphere < 1452080652 148866 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rulings say it's a mana ability (which makes sense, as it has no targets and generates mana), but it draws a card < 1452080674 777666 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah right, Chromatic Sphere. < 1452080731 849821 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :401.5 covers only the time while a spell or ability is being played, which might be enough, becuse those are the times when a transaction that may have to be reversed is active. < 1452080759 581617 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 401.6 says the same about the top card of the library < 1452080761 221413 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such thing may also force the transactional controller's teammates to concede, depending on situation, in my proposed rule changes. < 1452080803 931137 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think because of 401.5 and 401.6 that example won't cause a player to learn any hidden information while casting a spell, < 1452080824 381581 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you're right that it can cause information to be learnt while you're paying for an effect, but in that case it's not a problem. < 1452080848 960521 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: so what if you use two chromatic spheres on the same spell < 1452080856 657010 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with lantern of insight in play < 1452080863 760049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the opponent get to see the second card you draw, and if so, when? < 1452080863 946875 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone who deliberate takes advantage of these rules that force someone to concede or to help his teammates, is disqualified. < 1452080880 251480 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, because of 401.6 < 1452080903 411103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but normally if you draw two cards with a "reveal the top card of your library" effect in play, the opponent sees both < 1452080999 864741 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, do you mean whether they see the spell later, after all the reversible stuff ends? < 1452081016 758881 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1452081024 603827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right < 1452081055 224142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm vaguely reminded of the questions involving unexpectedly having a sylvan library trigger when you brainstormed earlier in the turn < 1452081059 453526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I forget what the setup is < 1452081088 31979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it suddenly becomes relevant which cards you drew off the brainstorm, which the opponent isn't entitled to know and yet you have to prove) < 1452081122 486961 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure nobody gets to see the cards _during_ playing any spell or ability, even if that's not the spell or ability relevant for paying, because there's nested Panglacials involved. < 1452081149 498451 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1452081161 311475 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :My exam this morning (on linear optimization and game theory) did not go well < 1452081171 295261 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Largely because I forgot how to do both linear optimization and game theory < 1452081172 427547 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, even though Panglacial used to look really scary to me, I'm starting to think it doesn't really cause any serious rules problems that you wouldn't have otherwise. < 1452081194 712988 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only real influence it has is that you can't reorder your library while searching it < 1452081231 353076 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also with my propsed rules: If an action that involved a library being shuffled must be rewound, what happens depends on the history of the game. < 1452081260 976211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any mana abilities that cause a player to shuffle their library? < 1452081261 879408 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, and also that the cards you found when searching stay in the library (in the same place) until something actually causes you to move them. < 1452081295 275067 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Lich's Mirror I think < 1452081309 942024 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: haha, beautiful < 1452081314 594291 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry) < 1452081317 418417 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that screws things up much more than just the library shuffle I think < 1452081323 329325 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1452081329 714705 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still doesn't cause to reveal any information < 1452081338 930869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it also shuffles your hand and all your permanents into your library and draws you seven cards < 1452081365 996748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a pretty screwy effect for a mana ability to have < 1452081368 885536 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even regardless of mana abilities causing players to lose as a side effect (eg. by saccing a Platinum Angel), it has always been the case that players can leave the game at basically any time by conceding < 1452081391 840785 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it a screwy effect? < 1452081407 583694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a large change to the gamestate, there's a lot of zone changes involved < 1452081408 711181 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, more screwy than just sacrificing permanents < 1452081417 731734 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although admittedly most of them can be done individually (sacrifice, card draw) < 1452081430 807635 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, card draw? < 1452081432 455849 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh damn < 1452081444 438242 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, card draw < 1452081447 572539 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like with Chromatic Sphere < 1452081455 55254 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1452081494 138566 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all that while you're still searching your library and you cast a Panglacial? < 1452081506 575473 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you move cards to your library while searching? < 1452081509 435272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is probably the only way to move a card from your graveyard to your hand at mana ability speed though < 1452081537 546469 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hmm yes, enlarging the library mid-search is a little screwy < 1452081549 687077 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not counting reverting a move from the hand to the graveyard? < 1452081592 448655 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, that doesn't really count. < 1452081593 92745 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1452081596 708806 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy < 1452081635 946639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so let's see: I have lich's mirror in play, play a card that lets me search for (say) two lands, I find one, cast panglacial wurm by paying my last point of life to generate mana, panglacial wurm's on the stack but the land I found ends up in my hand naturally, then I find another land that was previously in my graveyard < 1452081644 120108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does that not work? and if so, why not? < 1452081674 591213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when searching, do you do panglacial wurm casting before or after you find things, or both? before makes the most sense rules-wise < 1452081701 708481 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, you don't lose from 0 life until state-based actions are ran < 1452081714 803966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1452081720 502586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any way to lose faster than that? < 1452081729 339033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(other than conceding which would disrupt the rest of the "combo") < 1452081731 816494 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1452081811 906792 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1452081825 252202 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could lose a Platinum Angel, but that might not be enough for anything < 1452081849 817616 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I was wrong and you can't lose the game immediately from a mana ability, other than by conceding? < 1452081857 520893 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in comprehensive rules) < 1452081929 883972 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there anything like AWK for working with binary data? < 1452081948 649356 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1452081953 887910 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Forbidden Crypt < 1452081955 83344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: perl with use open IO=>':bytes' is pretty close < 1452081982 205650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that works I think < 1452081985 397749 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: my goal with this is 70% making my friends look at me funny < 1452081992 248206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :replacement effect so it copies the speed of the card draw < 1452081995 167409 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly Nefarious Lich if you can somehow get damage dealt during < 1452081997 561984 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could use strings of 1s and 0s < 1452082013 379081 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: well that'd be good for making your friends look at you funny < 1452082038 439938 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: is your data aligned on bytes, or is it a bitstream? < 1452082039 875451 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you deal damage while activating mana abilities? < 1452082050 819588 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: it's aligned on 108-bit chunks < 1452082057 111302 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I believe some ways to do so yes < 1452082150 99704 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some mana abilities deal damage to their controller < 1452082172 258185 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This damage may be redirected) < 1452082199 337011 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: that might depend on which implementation of awk you take, but for some awk it is definitely possible, because http://pts.szit.bme.hu/muzcat-mini-latest.tar.gz handles binary data and has a gawk version < 1452082223 267699 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: eep. < 1452082303 520657 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1452082307 424067 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might actually be wrong < 1452082324 765431 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the gawk version doesn't actually work. < 1452082337 869964 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it'd be fine for me to use strings of 1s and 0s < 1452082389 593513 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a compile_gawk.sh but it's not mentioned in the README and it doesn't seem to be actually supported in muzcat.c so I don't think it works. < 1452082393 686247 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to ask PTS about this. < 1452082441 65600 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh right < 1452082581 977298 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issue is I want to do bitwise logic on these to some extent < 1452082663 291311 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh, Gawk supports that! < 1452082711 449497 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: let me recap. while resolving a tutor, you cast a Panglacial from your library, and to pay for it, you tap a Skyshroud Forest, replace its damage with Nefarious Lich, mirror the loss with Lich's Mirror, and that gets cards into your library. < 1452082715 435709 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait wait < 1452082830 180319 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lich's Mirror has you shuffle all permanents you own into your library? So if I am so gracious as to Bazaar Trader a Lich's Mirror to an opponent, he can use it repeatedly to replace game loss? < 1452082837 731524 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's nice of Lich's Mirror. < 1452082850 92778 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: LOCKPICK CHICKEN < 1452082850 406807 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although and("1110", "1011") prints 82 < 1452082855 617475 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure what's going on < 1452082856 980564 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't cause any rules problem, just wondering. < 1452082878 795934 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :82 in binary'd be 1010010 right? < 1452082952 406871 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1452082955 853994 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes, but the and function in awk operates on numbers, and just like perl, awk automatically converts strings to numbers by interpreting them as decimal, unless they have a 0x or something < 1452082960 454872 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: 1110 & 1011 in decimal *is* 82 < 1452082970 61916 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaargh < 1452082986 981825 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear... < 1452082990 438539 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't want to know this < 1452082991 46323 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1452082994 340055 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see what I'm doing now < 1452083005 66503 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :awk has a variable like perls' $# but BACKWARDS, controlling conversion from number to string < 1452083028 262879 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1452083029 944925 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't < 1452083030 765872 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whew < 1452083051 877725 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CONVFMT of gawk is just the same as $# of perl: it controls converting numbers to strings < 1452083055 382476 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still scary enough < 1452083056 826532 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but less so < 1452083111 908905 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although apparently locales might be involved, depending on moon phase and stuff < 1452083116 687399 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to know the details < 1452083133 876160 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, in simple cases, auto-conversion from string to integer in awk will read decimal < 1452083142 423203 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't generally do awk) < 1452083177 806707 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The man says it always just does strtod, but I can't get it to accept hexadecimal floats for some reason. < 1452083226 408713 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait wait < 1452083258 345928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: does strtod do hexfloats on your system? (and does it depend on compiler flags?) < 1452083282 321846 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: My 'man strtod' claims it does, but I didn't verify that. < 1452083308 941105 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :C11 strtod certainly is supposed to. < 1452083314 198550 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As is the C99 one, I think.) < 1452083315 573560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :parsing some things you previously didn't parse is a backwards compat change < 1452083365 972127 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait, if Panglacial isn't involved, does this mean that while paying the costs of a spell you're playing, you may have to shuffle your library in such a way that most of its cards are still hidden, but that you can revert the shuffling if the playing fails? < 1452083371 672198 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely recall that it might've been a C99 addition. < 1452083377 921367 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's technically possible, but would be very ugly to do in practice. < 1452083403 736701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I guess yes, you could set off a shuffle and draw while playing a spell < 1452083406 832647 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably you'd postpone physically shuffling the library till later < 1452083425 704393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then activate selvala (who was under a banishing light) /after/ that and discover you didn't have enough mana :-) < 1452083449 313452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to shuffle immediately because you need to randomize the top card of your library for the lich's mirror draw and for selvala's ability < 1452083454 130193 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you don't need Selvala, just a player conceding can be enough to cause you to revert the stuff < 1452083469 424301 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :selvala lets you pull it off in a 2p game < 1452083471 446523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but good point < 1452083472 286702 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you don't have to physically shuffle for that, you can randomize without that < 1452083481 526607 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ni fact < 1452083484 24086 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this doesn't need panglacial /or/ selvala < 1452083495 208476 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can probably put off the card drawing till later too < 1452083504 465361 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because nobody can look at the drawn card anyway < 1452083516 102842 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you'd postpone the physical act of (shuffling and drawing card) < 1452083521 864898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you're discarding the (face-down) cards for mana < 1452083522 269572 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it happens from a game perspective < 1452083539 81493 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that 4??.? rule regulates that too < 1452083545 347250 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it counts as having no characteristics while it's hidden < 1452083552 315547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to try to get enough after your exotic orchards got turned off by an opponent conceding < 1452083575 848246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no, I mean is there no ability that lets you simply discard cards to generate mana? (possibly with an extra t in the cost) < 1452083579 269300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with no requirements on them? < 1452083604 535561 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: um... I don't think so < 1452083631 91152 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's the Spirit Guide but that doesn't help here < 1452083638 946060 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can't activate it until the card is revealed < 1452083677 489175 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh samn < 1452083678 952002 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is < 1452083682 158627 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Bog Witch < 1452083697 774149 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and also Lion's Eye Diamond (duy) < 1452083701 94694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh, I was going to use another chromatic sphere + chains of mephistopheles < 1452083707 763132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lion's eye diamond definitely works too < 1452083713 105500 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Overeager Apprentice < 1452083714 616216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1452083722 71436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lion's eye diamond is restricted to instant speed < 1452083722 966560 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Skirge Familiar, the simplest < 1452083739 280559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's a mana ability but with a timing restriction < 1452083741 508529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1452083745 209309 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, how does Skirge Familiar work? < 1452083758 393357 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :skirge failiar's just a regular mana ability though < 1452083773 991981 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a creature with "Discard a card: Add {B} to your mana pool." and no drawback? < 1452083781 13341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it costs 5 < 1452083783 566815 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems horribly overpowered even for an Urza's card < 1452083784 396136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a drawback < 1452083786 744887 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even still < 1452083797 972817 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, that's like Channel level broken, isn't it? < 1452083806 494870 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you can't play it first turn < 1452083807 21282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's harder to get 19 cards than 19 life < 1452083807 423251 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1452083815 214720 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1452083819 276094 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I guess that's true < 1452083832 713346 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, it's not _that_ broken then < 1452083839 700510 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not more than Ashnod's Altar < 1452083877 963351 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't be printed now, but you're right that it's not too broken < 1452083911 744740 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so the question is what happens if you use Skirge Familiar to discard a card you just drew with Chromatic Sphere, all while paying for a spell? < 1452083951 62999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here: I cast an expensive spell, filter a mana with chromatic sphere, the draw gets replaced by forbidden crypt and causes me to lose (empty graveyard), which gets replaced by lich's mirror, then I discard the resulting 7 cards to a skirge familiar that came back from under a banishing light (or that an opponent owns but I control), then I try to pay the remaining mana with a shimmering pool that came back from under a different banishing light < 1452083961 703852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in response, my only opponent who controls any colour-producing lands concedes < 1452083988 105012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so I'm short one mana for the spell < 1452083995 927413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without concessions I would be guaranteed to have enough) < 1452084008 321367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also the forbidden crypt gets shuffled in by the lich's mirror so doesn't affect the subsequent card draws) < 1452084153 798813 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SirCmpwn: what's a "shimmering pool"? < 1452084172 130599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird misping there < 1452084180 889922 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1452084184 673632 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the land that generates opponent-coloured mana < 1452084188 372842 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a mistap and a tab < 1452084191 349430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you somehow typo ais as si? < 1452084201 20419 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I probalby just tried to press a tab < 1452084204 891800 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a" and then tab < 1452084213 632938 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but instead pressed "s" followed by tab < 1452084235 573748 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean a Reflecting Pool? or some other card? < 1452084268 739728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I meant Exotic Orchard < 1452084272 92305 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there'll be a Mirror Pool in the next expansion, but it doesn't seem relevant < 1452084292 882346 :AlexR42!~textual@136.169.242.7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452084312 369277 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how I got that confused < 1452084318 45881 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, almost out of battery, and it's lunchtime < 1452084319 501727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye everyone < 1452084323 51055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1452084363 851152 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's multiple cards with Shimmering, and two of them can give any color.) < 1452084690 148813 :SirCmpwn!~sircmpwn@irc.sircmpwn.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what? < 1452084709 74498 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AWK seems to use 53 bit integers < 1452084725 220040 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :gawk, at least < 1452084794 301501 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, you can set that < 1452084915 670106 :SirCmpwn!~sircmpwn@irc.sircmpwn.com PART #esoteric :"WeeChat 1.3" < 1452086317 749146 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: efnet/Athildur claims (without rule proof) that if there's a Chromatic Lantern otb and I use two Chromatic Spheres while casting a spell, then after the spell is successfully cast, opponents get to look at both cards. < 1452086449 610520 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is that? < 1452086492 518643 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no wait < 1452086536 144526 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, he has already seen the first card anyway, before the spell, and will see the next card on top of my library after casting, and the question was whether he sees the second card I draw. < 1452086616 38097 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also asked what happens if there's no chromatic lantern, but while casting an elephant, I draw a card with Chromatic Sphere and then discard it to Skirge Familiar. They say it's probably permitted, but no answer yet on why you can't look at it. < 1452086692 472507 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/(...)ch/out-\1/fizz < 1452086707 169284 :zgrep!~zgrep@zgrep.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, no regex replacement bot, right. < 1452086918 711708 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just believe that rule 717 needs to be entirely rewritten in order to avoid such problems. < 1452086991 950724 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: rule 717 should be rewritten for clarity, but I don't think it can be rewritten in such a way to avoid these kinds of problems. < 1452087053 651513 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think that rule should say that to revert actions, first you revert the whole game state, then any player who had conceded during the transaction leaves the game, with all its consequences, then you continue the game. < 1452087403 711628 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have many ideas about how to fix it though, although it is complicated. < 1452087485 908082 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Jbs1010 5* 10New user account < 1452087530 139966 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: would the fix have observable rules consequences even when nobody concedes or leaves the game or loses the game even during the actions that are reverted? < 1452087596 761287 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The steps you mentioned are part of it, although there would also be a lot of things about what can be reversed and how, and that the transactional controller is forced to concede if reversing it is impossible (with the consequences for conceding you mentioned above) < 1452087654 297615 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Let me to think about it; I am not sure < 1452088091 74929 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is there anything that's actually impossible to reverse, even with rules fixes that should be done, eg. on Selvala? < 1452088121 851106 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And rules fixes on the Chromatic Sphere plus Skirge Familiar situation. < 1452088134 971894 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I mean in the comprehensive rules, not in tournament rules. < 1452088155 566378 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tournament rules have to handle mistakes that can't be reversed, such as accidentally looking at cards that the rules wouldn't allow you to look at. < 1452088163 567775 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It does handle them.) < 1452088214 370395 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My proposed fixes would not alter that rule; Selvala could still be used as is, and Chromatic Sphere plus Skirge Familiar could also still be used as is, although if reversing is necessary then the new rule 717 is taken into effect to determine what happens; this depends on whether or not you looked at those cards, as well as on other things. < 1452088244 776889 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait < 1452088249 665066 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's the infinite loops thing < 1452088321 346389 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found earlier than the rule about infinite loops that a player can terminate does have impossible and undefined consequences. < 1452088338 976180 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that does interact with reverting stuff. < 1452088347 69973 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shuffling a library is no longer always impossible to reverse, but in some cases it is impossible. < 1452088445 166156 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same with drawing a card; if you choose not to look at the drawn card, or if you would have already known what the top card of your library was and all players knew this, then it can safely be reversed, otherwise it isn't. But you are not prohibited from looking at the drawn card (you are not forced to either though). < 1452088558 57791 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the sense of explaining a rules situation, what's the easiest way to cast any card at instant speed? Teferi and Isochron Scepter work only on particular sets of cards. < 1452088602 26336 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean any card, just any card that can be cast, i.e. a card that's not a land and not of a type that is always in the command zone. < 1452088617 281726 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'd like to cast it face up. < 1452088739 181456 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, as for invented cards, would it make sense to have an instant that simply says "Choose a card from your hand. You may cast that card." ? What would that have to cost? < 1452088745 745847 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, it would have to say nonland < 1452088754 720391 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Choose a nonland card from your hand. You may cast that card." < 1452089041 822122 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah right, Ice Cauldron lets you cast any nonland card immediately. It's the most flexible solution I think. < 1452089157 759048 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah no. < 1452089164 963754 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ice cauldron doesn't let you cast the spell immediately. < 1452089175 665498 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It only lets you cast from a different zone with normal timing. < 1452089280 915642 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck? < 1452089420 95058 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there ANY way to cast some enchantment of my choice, say Holy Strength, face up at instant speed, provided I own it? < 1452089521 214092 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you asking me about? < 1452089533 806558 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: vedalken orrery? < 1452089546 756733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452089611 773735 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1452089615 241016 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vedalken Orrery, right < 1452089618 71830 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always forget about that one < 1452089674 609911 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Teferi is a much more memorable character, even if I think the Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir card in TSP is a disappointing representation of him. < 1452089690 583777 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's represented much better on other cards, like Ovinize and Disruptive Student. < 1452089882 735684 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: efnet/Athildur claims (without rule proof) that if there's a Chromatic Lantern otb and I use two Chromatic Spheres while casting a spell, then after the spell is successfully cast, opponents get to look at both cards. < 1452089934 154288 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1452089966 367967 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they also claim that while casting an elephant, it's possible to draw a card with Chromatic Sphere and discard it with Skirge Familiar, and that it *should* presumably still be hidden with no characteristics in the gy during casting the spell, but the comp rules apparently doesn't say that. < 1452089971 364076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what if it was a single ability that said "draw two cards" < 1452090015 316121 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: 120.2 < 1452090016 142773 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Lantern of Insight is the card I said, not Chromatic Lantern :-) < 1452090067 77641 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, sorry. Not Chromatic Lantern, but either Lantern of Insight or Goblin Spy. < 1452090086 512611 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Goblin Spy controlled by me.) < 1452090115 945913 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: why which one? < 1452090125 563163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lantern of insight came to mind because it's actually part of a tier 2 modern deck < 1452090134 597270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cards that are played in major decks are easier for me to remember, probably for obvious reasons < 1452090177 572632 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would they be able to see the card < 1452090181 94190 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lantern of insight < 1452090203 269422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :under normal circumstances, lantern of insight means you see every card your opponents draw < 1452090206 736261 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically what happens is < 1452090210 109363 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you draw the first card < 1452090210 849883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the question is, if they draw two at mana ability speed, what happens < 1452090211 12784 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, there are like six cards that cause you to play with the top of your library revealed, but Lantern of Insight is the best because it doesn't have too many extra rules that complicate the matter, and it's a not too old not too expensive card (5DN uc). < 1452090218 190300 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes to hand face down and the top card is revealed < 1452090223 409640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: and the mill is very relevant < 1452090228 264863 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the second one goes to hand and the next is revealed < 1452090235 837446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: right, that's what I thought would happen < 1452090240 598642 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there's no rule preserving the face-down library card when you draw during casting < 1452090242 872547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the card's face down but everyone knows what it actually is < 1452090248 354674 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1452090260 496755 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the crib rule for chromatic sphere is imperfect, which sucks < 1452090273 938544 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: but the top card isn't revealed during a transaction (during while a spell or ability is being played) because of 401.6 < 1452090304 516023 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1452090309 279900 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, I never knew about that < 1452090309 862420 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :still < 1452090323 738408 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would rule the cards are revealed < 1452090325 942988 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cards 401.{5,6} refer to aren't actually face down, are they? They're just hidden and have no characteristics. < 1452090330 286808 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1452090344 858130 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :those rules are cribs to deal with an utterly dysfunctional card < 1452090347 477343 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"face down" has a rules meaning. < 1452090363 434295 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is "you don't get hidden information from chromatic sphere during casting/activation" < 1452090404 428030 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's more than one card. Chromatic Sphere isn't the only one, is it? and Chromatic Sphere isn't such a bad card actually, I like its design, it's just mistamplated, it should cause you to draw the card later as a trigger or something. < 1452090406 938332 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1452090407 811949 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://canada.pch.gc.ca/eng/1445028439342 < 1452090413 884062 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it is the only one < 1452090416 618227 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chromatic Star is the fix < 1452090419 686340 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: see Chromatic Star < 1452090428 10162 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides Lich's Mirror and Chromatic Sphere, what cards can cause you to draw a card? < 1452090429 86093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is almost exactly Chromatic Sphere but with timing fixes to not be stupid < 1452090432 400326 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: selvala! < 1452090434 5227 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, Chromatic Star is a fix. < 1452090438 162704 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, Selvala. < 1452090447 348441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been mentioning her repeatedly all conversation :-) < 1452090449 564384 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Chromatic Star is actually also better < 1452090452 792299 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now I will sleep but I will later explain how my replacement for rule 717 will fix all of these things, without affecting what the cards do. < 1452090470 653569 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you still draw a card if it dies in some other way < 1452090478 837359 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's not possible to lose while casting a spell, though < 1452090491 924878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: here: I cast an expensive spell, filter a mana with chromatic sphere, the draw gets replaced by forbidden crypt and causes me to lose (empty graveyard), which gets replaced by lich's mirror, then I discard the resulting 7 cards to a skirge familiar that came back from under a banishing light (or that an opponent owns but I control), then I try to pay the remaining mana with an exotic orchard that came back from under a different < 1452090493 491483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :banishing light, but in response the only opponent with color-producing lands concedes and now I'm one mana short < 1452090505 422540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it is, forbidden crypt triggering on chromatic sphere, we worked this out earlier < 1452090508 9663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :took a while though < 1452090513 734710 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, not counting the sphere I mean < 1452090538 166333 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, as discussed, that card is broken < 1452090545 178489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :selvala irritates me, I could tell it was a nightmare the instant it was printed < 1452090548 860574 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also it's pretty recent) < 1452090569 138115 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, yeah < 1452090570 979338 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :screw that card < 1452090574 246898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, just put a "play this ability only any time you could play an instant" on her, it won't hurt any of its intended uses and makes the corner cases much less cornery < 1452090584 910359 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't want to actually put that on text though < 1452090590 121038 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, Odyssey has a cycle of artifacts like Skycloud Egg which also draw a card in a mana ability < 1452090599 753631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the self-quote above is a similarly screwy situation that b_jonas and I came up with earlier < 1452090612 963467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which AFAICT causes you to have to undo a shuffle of your library, and there's no sequencing/shortcutting tricks to get around it < 1452090643 719164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the modern deck that was based around chromatic sphere/star and mass artifact reanimation was called "eggs" < 1452090657 447381 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there totally is. you just delay the physical shuffle for later as a shortcut. < 1452090658 771882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually some of its major pieces got banned because the deck was slowing down tournaments < 1452090672 197611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: but you have to draw seven cards off lich's mirror then discard them < 1452090675 777501 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after the shuffle < 1452090793 39654 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: there are actually at least two ways to lose without conceding while casting a spell: Chromatic Sphere + Forbidden Crypt, or Skyshroud Forest + Nefarious Lich. < 1452090806 452283 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's two cards you should curse. but the lich is probably already quite cursed, being a lich. < 1452090845 90630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: is mill delayed until state-based actions? or is that instant too? < 1452090851 44650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's delayed but am not sure < 1452090853 992213 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what mill? < 1452090862 602763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: trying to draw from an empty library < 1452090866 896942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(colloquially, loss by milling) < 1452090869 100667 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :losing from drawing? that's delayed to sba too < 1452090882 615739 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :104.3c < 1452090896 875636 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about winning from drawing with labotory maniac? < 1452090898 347129 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and loss from poison counters is delayed too < 1452090909 359898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember how it's worded (nor how it's spelled, that was my fourth attempt and it still looks wrong) < 1452090917 858550 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Laboratory Maniac? hmm < 1452090928 667921 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you would draw a card while your library has no cards in it, you win the game instead." < 1452090929 71699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, "laboratory", that has rather more letters than I thought < 1452090931 888698 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wonder I couldn't spell it < 1452090933 331770 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1452090933 539528 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so replacement < 1452090944 412490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be instant then < 1452090950 603072 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, then three ways < 1452090989 677723 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Laboratory Maniac might even be one that isn't already cursed by flavor, unlike the crypt and the lich. < 1452091189 154249 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But it's probably a mad scientist.) < 1452091340 92969 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for rules, can I have non-MTG rules nitpick questions too? < 1452091413 323577 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a C or C++ program, I call raise on a signal that isn't handled or ignored (as if SIG_DFL or as the process starts), isn't blocked, and causes the process to die (with or without coredump) or stop. Is it guaranteed that the function won't return (and the thread continue execution) before the program dies or stops? There might be other signals delivered at the same time, and the program may be multithreaded. < 1452091430 580431 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/delivered/pending/ < 1452091504 344527 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The OS needn't be Linux. < 1452091606 502151 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/raise.html < 1452091627 976622 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If a signal handler is called, the raise() function shall not return until after the signal handler does." < 1452091632 798996 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I looked at POSIX, it says that if the signal is _handled_, the handler will be executed before the function returns. < 1452091640 487417 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's no handler installed in this case. < 1452091726 648346 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1452091773 895395 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1452091798 313727 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there might be some text about signals in general that specify this. < 1452091805 631188 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. in http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/signal.h.html < 1452091819 145151 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even in the C11 standard or something < 1452091833 69640 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For POSIX, you'll be wanting to look through 2.4 Signal Concepts in the General Information section of System Interfaces. < 1452091842 633467 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I didn't see anything obviously relevant there. < 1452091843 86994 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(part of the behavior of signals is specified in C, part in POSIX, and part is OS-dependent) < 1452091887 850052 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 2.4 where? do you have a link? < 1452091902 753167 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/V2_chap02.html#tag_15_04 < 1452091954 955905 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The "System Interfaces" volume is divided to "General Information" and "System Interfaces" sections, the latter of which is the function reference.) < 1452092061 618890 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's slightly suspicious that the description for raise explicitly mentions only "if a signal handler is called", and not something more generally about the "action", but I haven't seen anything explicit about it yet. < 1452092115 689695 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1452092161 796011 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that part seems to be copied over from the C standard. < 1452092179 147120 :MDream!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDude < 1452092223 869216 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: doesn't the C standard also have SIG_DFL and SIGABRT which is fatal normally? even if it doesn't have signals that stop (suspend) the process. < 1452092267 488464 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a SIG_DFL, but the default handling seems to be very implementation-defined. < 1452092323 795902 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, but it doesn't _require_ that SIGABRT has a signal handler, so the question still arises what happens if you raise(SIGABRT) and your program doesn't handle it. < 1452092348 622847 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I don't see any explicit requirement for that to terminate the process. < 1452092363 543137 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, per C standard, the libc _could_ handle that signal and exit the process in some impl-defined way other than by signals, but it needn't do that. < 1452092418 993984 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A call to abort() does need to "[return an] implementation-defined form of the status /unsuccessful termination/ [] to the host environment by means of the function call raise(SIGABRT)", though. < 1452092421 479532 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/toc.htm does say that the default action for SIGABRT terminates the process ("with additional actions", that is, a core dump) if you SIG_DFL it < 1452092449 580378 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, POSIX is more explicit. But it doesn't seem they fully define whether raise may return before that. < 1452092555 691001 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.228 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 38 * 38 < 1452092556 961580 :spiette!~spiette@206.167.243.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452092557 499815 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1444 < 1452092580 51543 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was hoping for the default actions to be specified with something like "as if a signal handler that did X was installed", but that doesn't seem to be the case. < 1452092610 113500 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Because in that case you could have relied on the bit in the description of raise.) < 1452092643 795399 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :odd < 1452092695 744011 :bender|!benderpc@2404:e800:e61a:41d:88a5:ad2:6a78:9cd9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1452092702 722653 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems that the POSIX description of sigsuspend is more explicit: at http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/sigsuspend.html it seems to say that it won't return if the signal it lets through terminates the process, < 1452092950 920470 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to do complicated things with signals, but I would like to trust raise to not return in those sane circumstances. < 1452093924 143944 :mroman!~mroman@160.85.232.228 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1452094031 911064 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-178-006-012-057.178.006.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: Terminated < 1452094055 758894 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-178-006-012-057.178.006.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1452094081 692336 :Welo!~hato@546A4E77.cm-12-3b.dynamic.ziggo.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1452094208 267826 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In M:tG, what is the cycle of not very rare artifacts in some pre-modern set that produce or color three colors of mana? < 1452094221 961447 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And have illustrations of some sort of flat disk with some design on them. < 1452094243 181126 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: three-color artifacts are IIRC borderposts < 1452094244 343659 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what exact set they are, or what mechanic they do exactly. < 1452094257 821761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1452094265 417143 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are two-colour < 1452094268 268986 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the obelisks are in Alara. these are older < 1452094272 107623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's got to be either alara block or khans block < 1452094278 568515 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. Obelisk of Esper < 1452094279 961904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, pre-modern < 1452094298 871434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a cycle of lands in homelands that produce three colours < 1452094301 873186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are almost incomprehensibly bad < 1452094306 583741 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely not land < 1452094311 147941 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're artifactgs < 1452094314 474419 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-creature artifacts < 1452094378 119509 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I might be misremembering something. < 1452094436 635847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Rith's Attendant? < 1452094470 691931 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, the illustration at least definitely shows some inanimate abstract thingies < 1452094475 130766 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly disks < 1452094496 484040 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the illustration is what I remember the most, the mechanics are probably wrong < 1452094510 471647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the only pre-modern artifact with {R},{G},{W} in its rules text but not {U} or {B} < 1452094544 742421 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... maybe they produce only two colors of mana, or don't produce mana, or something < 1452094548 157838 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll continue searching < 1452094847 832032 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I found it! and my description was wrong in multiple places < 1452094906 443368 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least I might have found it. the Talisman of Progress cycle in Mirrodin. modern, and produces two colors. < 1452094915 311699 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be conflating different cards. < 1452094943 817968 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@37-219-28-69.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1452094949 248879 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are definitely disk-shaped artifacts at least. < 1452095006 76592 :J_Arcane!~chatzilla@37-219-235-98.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1452095015 93155 :J_Arcane_!~chatzilla@37-219-28-69.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi NICK :J_Arcane < 1452095249 589522 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not surprisingly, the Invasion block has lots of different colored mana producers. < 1452095314 168294 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, there's Multani's Harmony, which is like Paradise Mantle but an aura for {G} < 1452096048 843327 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-aduwrepkwbjgbsbb QUIT :Excess Flood < 1452096276 318989 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-nrktrscvovrxqjsy JOIN :#esoteric < 1452096744 296608 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Helping someone learn formal languages and automata < 1452096808 519776 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1452096901 921832 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to figure out how to explain the pumping lemma for regular languages < 1452096910 282816 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill show you how to explain pumping lemma < 1452096915 616571 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :just giv eme a sec to draw it < 1452096953 890160 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've given him some problems to work on converting between regular languages and FSAs < 1452096971 559051 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you've got some time < 1452097037 843300 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/sddYwEt.png < 1452097071 62104 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think I solved your first puzzle, but I feel like it's wrong < 1452097078 167653 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks < 1452097116 704476 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :try a book? < 1452097142 110727 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :His exam is in less than two hours < 1452097147 972292 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1452097156 995273 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, an online book or something_ < 1452097163 648433 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what good books are there for this < 1452097164 989752 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I have a book < 1452097167 70235 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just it's at home < 1452097169 72975 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not < 1452097227 770008 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does he already know that regular languages can be defined with *nondeterministic* finite automata without null moves? < 1452097237 48111 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to just deterministic ones? < 1452097246 473005 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it's the opposite way? < 1452097247 997839 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno < 1452097251 302058 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how this works < 1452097253 83891 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so < 1452097265 850189 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how hard the questions I've given him are < 1452097300 153697 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put too many dots :| < 1452097313 215026 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it doesn't matter < 1452097409 437151 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be kind to teach derivatives < 1452097531 944140 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1452098199 561216 :zadock!~outsider@81.180.209.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452099292 991593 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom < 1452099294 247843 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dateu < 1452099319 164280 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2016-01-06 16:54:58.117220000+00:00 < 1452099323 528935 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :grue/grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean < 1452099336 560368 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bleen < 1452099338 83133 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1452099359 727433 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees < 1452099364 830971 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'bleen': bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees < 1452099843 262298 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, bleen... vexxar? < 1452100015 767152 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: this is less useful for trivia, as it is much more widely known. < 1452100025 367480 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :(referring to the universal number) < 1452100076 796271 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? grey < 1452100078 118156 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :grey? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1452100079 637160 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? gray < 1452100080 694720 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gray? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1452100110 206236 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh < 1452100120 778924 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :This syllabus calls what I call "regular languages" "rational" < 1452100122 354282 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Grey is a common misspelling of gray. / Gray is a common misspelling of grey. ) < 1452100151 334684 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put a Taneb invented it in Grey and a Taneb did not invent it in Gray < 1452100153 294046 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen that before (rational languages) < 1452100184 48504 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know where that terminology comes from < 1452100233 32765 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. "Taneb disinvented it." < 1452100260 591702 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? deniability < 1452100261 717406 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :deniability? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1452100276 680722 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn Deniability was not invented by Taneb. < 1452100280 662393 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'deniability': Deniability was not invented by Taneb. < 1452100303 231801 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plausible. < 1452100364 592672 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1452100375 958556 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know roughly half of the exam this guy is sitting < 1452100380 258870 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :In 48 minutes < 1452100412 385467 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh good luck < 1452100466 823861 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it mean for a monoid to recognize a language < 1452100479 73160 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :a monoid huh < 1452100489 470825 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it acts on a set of states < 1452100547 833463 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :is "Taneb invented it" now a synonym for "Taneb approves it"? < 1452100579 494294 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I don't think so < 1452100599 231383 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: are there any numbers in reverse alphabetical order besides "one" < 1452100612 750013 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I don't think so but couldn't say for sure < 1452100727 15045 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is recognized by some finite monoid, meaning it is the preimage of a subset of a finite monoid under a homomorphism from the free monoid on its alphabet[note 7] < 1452100743 735726 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's equiv to regular language? neat < 1452100763 981513 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Said friend seems to have disappeared while attempting to refill his water < 1452100764 179906 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :is anyone a wikipedia editorL < 1452100764 732964 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1452101094 470183 :MDude!~fyrc@pa-67-235-0-195.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't edited WIkipedia in a few years. < 1452101157 25204 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :feel like making an edit ?? < 1452101317 246502 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cewwpbzdrfqvzjif QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1452101490 770883 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanila, can you not make the edit < 1452101519 951517 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont have an account < 1452101603 572442 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need an account unless they've really clamped down on anonymous editing in the last few years < 1452101689 927343 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Tonoco14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46092&oldid=46077 5* 03Keymaker 5* (+4) 10Fixed truth-machine spelling and linked it to its page. < 1452102661 209283 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: actually there's a new level of protection that's lower than semiprotection that's used on articles that anonymous people keep screwing up < 1452102670 781584 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a bit less clamped down than it used to be < 1452102686 846838 :p34k!~p34k@nat-wh-wz4-12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1452102688 489087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it delays showing the edits to other anons until someone with perms manually checks them < 1452102994 334430 :zadock!~outsider@81.180.209.1 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1452103018 89774 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, is that what revisionapprove turned into? < 1452103031 12038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1452103211 687055 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1452103395 494554 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: can registered users see them? < 1452103440 974842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: yes, actually anyone can by clicking a link < 1452103450 830465 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just it's default to show most recent for registered, and most recent approved for anons < 1452103467 195394 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1452105153 794796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1452106675 632998 :mauris!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl NICK :n < 1452106695 823156 :n!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl NICK :m{ < 1452107507 881878 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hlndjstptnhptxeb JOIN :#esoteric < 1452109441 97939 :Welo!~hato@546A4E77.cm-12-3b.dynamic.ziggo.nl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1452109596 256746 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 mentioned tiny leaders being solved earlier, anyone have a source < 1452109653 172927 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... < 1452109662 456086 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just heard someone say "monoids are easy" < 1452109666 852688 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Outside the context of Haskell < 1452109732 635012 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not as easy as you might think. < 1452110374 939302 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1452111353 750177 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1452112463 848987 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Fizzie14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46093&oldid=40332 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+0) 10Post-upgrade edit test for 1.26.2. < 1452112522 368544 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was some transient weirdness about logging in and session storage, but it seems to have maybe cleared up on its own. < 1452112529 262706 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell ais523 Just as a heads-up, updated esolangs.org to MediaWiki 1.26.2, in case you want to have a look, see if I broke something. < 1452112529 812725 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1452112532 258756 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan Just as a heads-up, updated esolangs.org to MediaWiki 1.26.2, in case you want to have a look, see if I broke something. < 1452112532 868176 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1452112611 410277 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have broken at least the images for the bottom-right corner CC0 and MediaWiki links. < 1452112964 468513 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :devious < 1452112986 838281 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They seem to have gone to /w/resources which wasn't part of the nginx configuration. < 1452113387 765962 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1452113598 64520 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello people. < 1452113961 87826 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1452114275 147463 :mauris_!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl JOIN :#esoteric < 1452114421 723906 :m{!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1452114428 82575 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :“ This syllabus calls what I call "regular languages" "rational"” -- that terminology actually makes sense, and I can explain why, although it's a bit bad since "rational" is a VERY overused word. < 1452114503 827547 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would like to know < 1452114509 653738 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :also b_jonas how about adding to wikipedia? < 1452114515 743232 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some textbooks introduce regular languages in such a way that they consider the set of languages (over a fixed alphabet) a semiring with unit, < 1452114549 92274 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_language#Equivalent_formalisms -- they don't mention a language is regular iff it has finitely many derivatives. Someone please add this! < 1452114572 849154 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the addition is the union of two languages, and the multiplication is elementwise concatenation. (The zero is the empty language, the unit is the language containing only the empty string, often notated by epsilon.) < 1452114593 915642 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg that's beautiful!! < 1452114594 986300 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not hard to verify that this satisfies the axioms of semirings. < 1452114597 383041 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see what you mean < 1452114606 869574 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a use for this description, < 1452114616 631730 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :would chomsky context free languages be algebraic? < 1452114672 574644 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely it is used to prove in an understandible way the nontrivial theorem that every language defined by a nondetrministic finite automaton (with null states) can also be defined by a regular expression (an expression made of finite sets, monoid operations, and the star closure). < 1452114732 242693 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You prove this in a constructive (but exponential time) way: from the finite automaton, you write a left regular BNF form, which formally looks like a set of "linear" equations in this monoid, < 1452114760 550415 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where there is a variable for each state of the automaton, which has the value of the language accepted if starting from that state, < 1452114782 264490 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the equations are originally derived from the translation rules and final states. < 1452114825 717214 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you transform these linear equations in a way somewhat similar to gaussian elimination. < 1452114875 475246 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namely, you keep the equations of a form where the left side is always a variable, and the right side is a regular expression with variables in them, < 1452114917 174283 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if an equation contains the lhs variable inside the rhs, then you transform this in a certain way which introduces the star closure, < 1452114940 414300 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if the equation does not contain the lhs variable inside the rhs, then you eliminate that equation and variable by substituting it everywhere else. < 1452114978 918536 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have heared this description, although not the terminology "rational language", but it makes total sense. < 1452115016 723822 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, I would not recomment "rational language" as a name, because "rational" is overloaded, and "regular language" or "Chomsky L0 language" are both well known terms that mean this. < 1452115064 875181 :^v^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1452115078 513328 :kragniz!~kragniz@nyaa.kragniz.eu NICK :{^-^} < 1452115107 985653 :{^-^}!~kragniz@nyaa.kragniz.eu NICK :Guest46353 < 1452115114 84177 :Guest46353!~kragniz@nyaa.kragniz.eu NICK :kragniz < 1452115183 9758 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although this linear equation formalism isn't really necessary for the proof, it helps understanding. I don't know how well it's known. < 1452115192 811037 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And in case it's not clear, this is a commutative semiring.) < 1452115451 86181 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: did you succeed explaining? < 1452115717 524003 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hlndjstptnhptxeb QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1452115947 639167 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looked up "sgsdgdfsfsh.org" at a domain registration place (random mashing just to see their prices), and they intelligently suggested I might be interested in "sgsdecigramdfsfsh.com" instead. < 1452116150 421386 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1452116219 897300 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, are you? < 1452116234 136843 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. I mean, decigrams. < 1452116237 767733 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I thought WHOIS privacy protection things were predominantly a standard service, but it seems they quite often now are priced separately instead. < 1452116362 573460 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1452116460 386022 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, *decigram*? that's not even a real used unit of measurement, is it? that is, the rules that restrict the use of the centi, deci, deka, hecto forbid it, don't they? < 1452116464 48728 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look that up < 1452116481 434423 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know all of those rules by heart. < 1452116496 824701 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/deka/deca/ in English apparently < 1452116592 631229 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, where do I find those rules? < 1452116834 927973 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never seen it used before I think, but I don't know if it's actually forbidden < 1452116907 675261 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: forbidden by SI, as in, much of the metric units and prefixes were in use somewhat before SI, but SI restricts them a bit more, apart from restricting the use of non-metric units. < 1452117252 210962 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1452117428 666743 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-66-163.access.telenet.be QUIT :Client Quit < 1452117781 579049 :v^!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1452117840 322897 :haavardp!freebsd@haavard.me JOIN :#esoteric < 1452117876 148133 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1452117896 87260 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1452117915 805545 :^v^v!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1452117916 284 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1452117957 755280 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1452118205 788967 :AlexR42!~textual@136.169.242.7 QUIT :Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1452118254 410971 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1452118995 323260 :v^!~^v@c-68-41-215-101.hsd1.mi.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Network ban < 1452119324 611682 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1452119398 198786 :onetwothree4life!4b538701@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.135.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452119407 613842 :onetwothree4life!4b538701@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.135.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holy crap I am here. < 1452119416 703608 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1452119422 696451 :onetwothree4life!4b538701@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.135.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1452119424 124453 :onetwothree4life!4b538701@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.135.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :One time I had two dogs that got hit by three cars for life. < 1452119436 907109 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome onetwothree4life < 1452119438 912233 :onetwothree4life!4b538701@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.135.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How was your life? < 1452119450 92326 :onetwothree4life!4b538701@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.135.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thankyou Taneb < 1452119460 232638 :onetwothree4life!4b538701@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.135.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How was your life? < 1452119465 42955 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :onetwothree4life: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) < 1452119476 137601 :onetwothree4life!4b538701@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.135.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1452119480 671101 :onetwothree4life!4b538701@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.135.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have arrived. < 1452119495 855542 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@uptime < 1452119496 14856 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :uptime: 25m 8s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s < 1452119497 347318 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :pity < 1452119503 555147 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1452119508 422031 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: hi. did the cs teaching work? < 1452119521 116317 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: to some extent < 1452119540 963113 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone else came along and explained the bits to him that I didn't know < 1452119549 869125 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the exam is at 9 tomorrow, not 6 tonight < 1452119627 839093 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1452119742 941387 :vanila!~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila PRIVMSG #esoteric :onetwothree4life hi < 1452119944 822208 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, hmm i thought i was going to york in february but turns out it's leeds < 1452119957 745296 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it's nearby < 1452119963 554707 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you venturing my way? < 1452119973 887005 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :underwater hockey tournament < 1452120036 397845 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahaha! < 1452120038 385772 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long for? < 1452120140 672979 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that at all like Blitzball? < 1452120168 532037 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, saturday, probably leaving early sunday afternoon < 1452120180 772583 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no b/c giant floating balls of water don't exist irl < 1452120208 978048 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be a non-floating half-sphere, and be half like blitzball. < 1452120330 170444 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway no, you use a sinking lead puck in a flat pool < 1452120335 212921 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, flat in theory < 1452120344 533416 :mauris_!~mauris@unaffiliated/nooodl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1452120345 571559 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice it's like playing football on a hill < 1452120383 267727 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you completely submerged, or only just partially? < 1452120396 670892 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :you play with a snorkel, so both < 1452120413 899501 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Final Fantasy wikia's blitzball page linked me to Underwater Rugby. < 1452120427 624169 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :we play that when we're sick of underwater hockey < 1452120552 977805 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what's the context? are you a spectator, a player, or a referee/umpire? < 1452120564 304162 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps a coach. < 1452120575 59217 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :a player < 1452120597 435842 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a real sport so we don't have proper referees, just pedantic players with a special hat < 1452120602 470443 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is on which continent? I know there's at least one underwater hockey club in Hungary, but it's not a very popular sport. < 1452120615 812108 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't really see what's going on because of all the water so there are no spectators < 1452120623 612802 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, the UK < 1452120633 482331 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also apparently very big in new zealand < 1452120641 219335 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "not a real sport", do you mean you play casually, not in a very competitive way, just like how many people play casual football without professional referees? < 1452120652 5597 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than playing in tournaments that is. < 1452120655 927416 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could quite easily come and watch if such a thing were possible < 1452120719 795307 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you can't really see what's going on because of all the water so there are no spectators" -- probably. but some people watch surprisingly weird sports that I would think aren't worth to watch, especially if they are friends or family with players. < 1452120748 93098 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah, you do get friends and family along < 1452120755 610717 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :though normally they get roped into being refs too < 1452120772 422355 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only natural that some parents are interested since adolescent children play the sport too < 1452120886 654344 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :haavard: Are you on? Then you can reply to me about the puzzles? < 1452121016 689220 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1452121045 601370 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, ill have you know that were respectable adults thank you very much < 1452121071 191983 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why have the skins other than Vector been deleted from esolang wiki? < 1452121091 138145 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ok < 1452121110 446449 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, b/c the other ones look like shit? < 1452121110 779722 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: but even if you're respectable adults, some of you might have sons practicing underwater hockey < 1452121131 747245 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, here now that's a very pessimistic view of our teen pregnancy rates < 1452121134 202956 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: by the way, where does your nick come from? is there a public reason? < 1452121147 898773 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it was funny when i was ~12 i think < 1452121334 771023 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1452121407 627108 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Phantom_Hoover < 1452121417 266018 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop. < 1452121427 676066 :puckipedia!~puck@irc.puckipedia.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1452121434 446466 :puck1pedia!~puck@irc.puckipedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1452121499 910398 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one day, I'll have a child. I hope he can swim better than me. < 1452121583 12549 :puck1pedia!~puck@irc.puckipedia.com NICK :puckipedia < 1452121599 853212 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I see < 1452121626 754789 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell zzo38 It was a semi-unintentional side effect of updating to a new MediaWiki version -- it doesn't enable all installed skins by default (like the old version did), and I only just quick-fixed it by re-enabling the standard one. I will look into enabling the others -- I was wondering whether some of our users were actually using them. < 1452121626 952183 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1452121765 355313 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the main reason why underwater hockey isn't very popular here as a casual sport is that it needs a suitable swimming pool and there's few of those. < 1452121773 68156 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it would be expensive. < 1452121803 382340 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :More so than water polo, which is popular, but might have more choice in swimming pools. < 1452121849 529117 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously the other part why it's not popular is that it's not suitable as a spectator sport and so few people know about it. < 1452121891 889845 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not that expensive, at least in the club i play at < 1452121902 322739 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :general sports membership + £6 < 1452121923 647276 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems that the user_properties table has 2 instances of 'cologneblue', 4 instances of 'modern', 4 instances of 'monobook', 1 instance of 'simple' and 11 instances of 'standard'. Only CologneBlue, Modern, MonoBook and Vector seem to be part of the installation now. < 1452121935 525690 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's mostly obscure because it was invented by a diving club in the 50s and has spread from there < 1452121954 678704 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, what does "general sports membership" mean, GBP 6 per what (month person, week person, occasion person), and traveling to the swimming pool is part of the cost. < 1452121971 668310 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1452121978 480545 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :£6 buys you club membership for a year, you can play with only that < 1452122014 750570 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages- < 1452122014 909813 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie said 2h 38m 2s ago: Just as a heads-up, updated esolangs.org to MediaWiki 1.26.2, in case you want to have a look, see if I broke something. < 1452122025 91282 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :general sports membership means buying access to the university's sports clubs, which is an extortionate £90 or so but is also necessary to do the mainstream sports < 1452122072 309042 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even water polo isn't cheap, since it needs reserving some lanes in a swimming pool of length at least 25 m, and there aren't many such swimming pools available, since it's actually very expensive to maintain one. < 1452122119 642251 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I see. Is there an additional requirement of some relation with the university to that? And what else does that membership buy you? And is it GBP 90 per person year? < 1452122166 448262 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(quickly checking, 1 GBP = 430 HUF approx currently) < 1452122223 286787 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's £96/year basically but if you want to do water polo or football or any other sport that £90 is already necessary < 1452122230 790444 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell zzo38 I have re-enabled the three other ones that were still bundled as part of the 1.26 installation (Cologne Blue, Modern, MonoBook). I believe the other two skins that people had historically used (standard, simple) had already been removed in 1.22, the previous version. < 1452122230 948959 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1452122238 115022 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :for local clubs it's genrally £4 a night < 1452122255 234659 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would result in 8 GBP per month person in average, which seems cheap for a swimming pool access if you go regularly throughout the whole year. < 1452122295 337923 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pay more than that for swimming, and most of that cost is actually for the swimming pool access. < 1452122349 408700 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the requirements for the swimming pool for underwater hockey? Can you practice in a pool with a slanted floor? Floor slanted in half of the pool? Size and depth limits? < 1452122369 87310 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For regular casual practice that is, not for a match. < 1452122489 177017 :p34k!~p34k@nat-wh-wz4-12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de QUIT : < 1452122592 858487 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the Recent Changes preferences changed a bit, and when i fixed that the Save button strangely took me from https to http, telling me i had to log in (i was already logged in on https). < 1452122599 486432 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, yeah, you just work around slopes in the pool < 1452122647 602120 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: do you need an entire swimming pool, or are two or three lanes in a sloped pool enough? < 1452122648 478827 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I had some logged-in/not-logged-in weirdness initially too. Don't think I remembered to check whether that was due to http/https differences. < 1452122665 547153 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow jumping back and forth in history then got me logged in on http too < 1452122676 742405 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :without afair giving the password. < 1452122686 533241 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if it's something to do with the memcache stuff. < 1452122696 271578 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, depends, lanes are normally too narrow though < 1452122729 998364 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can play widthways quite easily though < 1452122740 642297 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. We've got wgServer set to "http://esolangs.org" -- I think that should be just "//esolangs.org", really. < 1452122742 864873 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i fact since i became admin i've been making a point of _not_ being logged in on just http, so i don't really want this... < 1452122748 894573 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least as far as I can tell from https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgServer < 1452122769 494705 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but it's hard to reserve part of a public swimming pool widthwise, whereas it's easy to reserve two or three lanes. Water polo practices are often done in lanes here. < 1452122782 809832 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially so in big swimming pools. < 1452122826 17745 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I tried setting it to the protocol-agnostic thing. Hopefully that should mean links should stay in the scheme you were on. < 1452122876 808797 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also set $wgCanonicalServer to https:// -- the documentation says it'll use that for links in things like emails.) < 1452122979 746161 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that'll have a side effect of switching to https:// links in the on-channel edit notifications. < 1452123113 768786 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, as i've been editing that manually < 1452123135 649364 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1452123155 583835 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wonder this felt familiar: I had in fact done exactly the same change before. < 1452123168 14475 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except with $wgCanonicalServer set to http:// instead.) < 1452123189 524055 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out I fixed it on the server, but not in the canonical copy of the configuration where I take it from when updating. < 1452123201 736489 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1452123297 289290 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also seem to have managed to rollback the captcha questions (from the single 0x29A to the old, larger set) due to the same sort of thing. < 1452123316 822572 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder if I should redo that change as well, it must've been changed for a reason. < 1452123368 994178 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: also most links did seem to already stay in the same scheme, it was just the Save button that behaved weirdly. < 1452123450 516281 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, the clubs i've been at have just booked the entire pool very late in the evenin < 1452123451 553746 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :*g < 1452123488 456910 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: afair we changed the captcha to just one because it was easier to change when the spambots managed to get one, and seemed just as effective... < 1452123509 918047 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I restored it back to the 0x29A it most recently had been. < 1452123531 296583 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes, that works for smaller or worse pools < 1452123538 775458 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did see a spammer recently. haven't checked the actual abuse log. < 1452123541 940369 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes; most in-page links probably would have worked if they are just normal relative ones, I assume it just needs a fully qualified URL for some more special things. < 1452123551 427061 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what size of pools? 20, 30, 33, 50 meter? < 1452123555 127978 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, < 1452123560 720227 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :20, 25, 30, 33, 50 meters < 1452123571 451052 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(25 meter is actually the most common length) < 1452123586 630003 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :varies but the local club in coventry has a 50m pool < 1452123594 301316 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1452123613 374232 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indoor or outdoor? Can you even do underwater hockey in an outdoor pool? < 1452123619 451025 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's split into 2 though, so ~25m would be a typical length < 1452123635 92858 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does underwater hockey need good lighting (lamps) for the pool? < 1452123636 147992 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't look like any spambots triggered the filters recently. < 1452123656 87448 :spiette!~spiette@206.167.243.2 QUIT :Quit: :qa! < 1452123657 546150 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the bottom's flat and you can see then outdoors would be fine, i'm sure < 1452123667 12447 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are not many outdoor pools in the uk though < 1452123693 56295 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last three users to get hits were regulars < 1452123715 534780 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: right, warm water in pools is somewhat of a special advantage here < 1452123744 885455 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, there are lots of natural warm water springs, and as a result, many swimming pools have warm water, whereas I hear this isn't true in most other locations < 1452124032 687752 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that recent spammer would not have been got by any filter, anyway, it was a single edit that looked plausible except that the link domain was _slightly_ fishy so i visited it. < 1452124062 437231 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=CAT&diff=prev&oldid=46055 < 1452124099 608438 :b_jonas!~x@152.66.83.24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand that in a lot of other countries, many children swim in warm neoprene suits, whereas that's rare here. < 1452124130 65606 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you'd generally wear a wetsuit to swim outdoors here < 1452124138 846867 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :for diving most people wear drysuits < 1452124166 766754 :boily!~alexandre@96.127.201.149 QUIT :Quit: TOROIDAL CHICKEN