2016-01-01: 00:00:09 oerjan: Oh, I thought that \ was an escape code 00:00:20 no, it's just what HackEgo uses for output 00:00:38 `` echo "#!/bin/sh ; if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] ; then echo \"Hello, world!\" ; fi" > bin/1492 00:00:42 No output. 00:00:46 `1492 00:00:47 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/1492: cannot execute: Permission denied 00:00:48 Happy new year, +0 timezone people! 00:00:52 Didn't expect that to work 00:00:56 hppavilion[1]: psst, you could use `cp 00:01:11 oerjan: Yes, I could, but I'm stupid 00:01:19 Perhaps I have to `touch bin/1492? 00:01:24 `touch bin/1492 00:01:25 No output. 00:01:33 `` echo "#!/bin/sh ; if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] ; then echo \"Hello, world!\" ; fi" > bin/1492 00:01:34 No output. 00:01:37 `1492 00:01:38 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/1492: cannot execute: Permission denied 00:01:42 Ok, I give up 00:01:45 xD 00:02:25 Happy near yew 00:02:31 hppavilion[1]: "chmod" hth 00:02:38 `` chmod "#!/bin/sh ; if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] ; then echo \"Hello, flat world!\" ; fi" > bin/1492 00:02:40 chmod: missing operand after `#!/bin/sh ; if [ 2016 != bash ] ; then echo "Hello, flat world!" ; fi' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information. 00:02:50 `` chmod bin/1492 "#!/bin/sh ; if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] ; then echo \"Hello, flat world!\" ; fi" 00:02:51 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----### 00:02:51 chmod: invalid mode: `bin/1492' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information. 00:03:01 `chmod --help 00:03:02 Usage: chmod [OPTION]... MODE[,MODE]... FILE... \ or: chmod [OPTION]... OCTAL-MODE FILE... \ or: chmod [OPTION]... --reference=RFILE FILE... \ Change the mode of each FILE to MODE. \ \ -c, --changes like verbose but report only when a change is made \ --no-preserve-root do not treat `/' specially (the default) \ --pr 00:03:04 chmod is the command for setting file permissions. 00:03:09 Oooooooooooooooh 00:03:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:03:24 oerjan: See, I'm an idiot. You must keep that in mind. 00:03:36 oerjan: So here's an idea for an EsOS: OO Filesystem 00:03:50 Instead of files, you have instances based on classes. 00:04:33 Not sure how methods work though. 00:04:47 `` cp bin/{2015,1492} 00:04:49 No output. 00:05:03 `` 2015; 1492 00:05:03 `1492 00:05:06 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/1492: cannot execute: Permission denied 00:05:06 Hello, world! \ bash: /hackenv/bin/1492: Permission denied 00:05:11 argh 00:05:14 hm 00:05:22 :) 00:05:32 `` rm bin/1492; cp bin/{2015,1492} 00:05:35 No output. 00:05:40 `1492 00:05:41 Hello, world! 00:06:08 stupidly, cp only transfers permissions when the file doesn't already exist 00:06:09 oerjan: See, but the world is flat, remember? 00:06:23 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----### 00:06:33 THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT AT COLUMBUS' TIME 00:06:36 oerjan: I KNOW 00:06:40 THAT'S THE JOKE 00:06:45 O KAY 00:07:25 a dead unicorn trope if there ever was one 00:07:29 that joke fell flatter than they beieved the world was 00:07:37 l 00:07:46 oerjan: So OO fsys? What do you think? Or is there a better idea?? 00:08:13 `? moon 00:08:15 The Moon is an unprovable celestial object that is not very retroreflectorey. 00:08:17 `? year 00:08:18 year? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:08:41 hppavilion[1]: i see OO and immediately run away hth 00:08:54 oerjan: But good OO. Not Javic OO. 00:09:22 An OS where the filesystem need not be based on a file tree; you can customize it to your every whim 00:09:55 i'm sure i had that idea > 20 years ago 00:10:03 oerjan: Do you have a more eso- ide? 00:10:06 *idea 00:10:21 One that's actually something people might want to use? 00:10:36 OXYMORON DETECTED 00:10:56 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:11:06 oerjan: Eso /= bad for use 00:11:13 Haskell is eso, remember 00:11:41 O KAY excuse me i'm reading tvtropes again 00:14:20 darn. was transfering pictures from my camera, and a missed a live swatting. 00:14:30 s/and a/and I/ 00:14:56 hppavellon[1]. Haskell isn't eso, it's categorically eso. 00:19:50 -!- gamemanj has joined. 00:20:23 gamellomanj. when are you? 00:20:33 Happy new year too, boily. :) 00:21:45 I'm actually in GMT, but A. my clock seems to be off (forgot to install NTPd here...) and B. I only recently thought to start distributing Happy New Year messages 00:24:00 Yappy hue nair 00:24:56 Appy kitten ear! 00:24:56 [wiki] [[4]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46058&oldid=42712 * Vriskanon * (+0) Changed Grid co-ordinates such that 0,0 is top left, rather than bottom left. 00:29:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:41:14 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:50:41 I don't really feel like staying up super really late like I normally do 00:54:35 Happy Tanew yearb! 00:55:40 Taneb: Haneb 01:05:04 How many other people will write comment to my card 01:06:14 hezzo38. you have a card? 01:06:38 Yes I made up many Magic: the Gathering cards, including some new ones recently 01:08:53 I don't use htdigest so I can't comment. 01:09:01 If you had a regular account registration system I might use it. 01:09:01 It is available in three formats (plain text, SQLite database, and a webpage), but to send comment you will need the account; tell me the account by private message and then I will put it in. The realm for the account is CustomMTG_zzo38 01:09:35 You can also just tell me the password by private message and I will do myself is another way, although it is recommended to make the MD5 calculation yourself instead. 01:11:46 I can add a form to make the MD5 hash of your account automatically if you have JavaScripts. 01:20:59 OK, now there is a form to do it 01:21:38 http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php 01:22:58 Now are you able to do it? Now it can be done by form. 01:43:06 So here's that Magic card: http://mtgcardsmith.com/view/magic-magnet 01:43:58 tswett: Enchanted... enchantment? Wut? 01:44:07 Yup. 01:44:13 You enchant enchantments. 01:44:37 tswett: But... but... but... 01:44:42 THAT MAKES NO SENSE 01:45:11 Why it makes no sense? 01:45:15 yo dawg i heard you like enchantments 01:45:31 Say, here's a question. 01:45:47 Suppose a card says this: "When this card enters the battlefield, it becomes red until end of turn." 01:45:54 It enters the battlefield, but leaves before the ability resolves. 01:46:11 Nothing becomes red, right? 01:46:14 Then I think nothing happens; that object no longer exists. 01:46:18 Right. 01:52:07 impermanence of red objects. 01:54:23 -!- dioneone666999 has joined. 01:55:20 `relcome dioneone666999 01:55:22 ​dioneone666999: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 01:55:43 probably the last `relcome of the year... 01:55:52 `relcome 01:55:54 ​Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 01:56:02 hey :P 01:56:02 boily: YOU WERE WRONG 01:56:58 and with that, happy new year y'all! up to watching tv specials with the parents (and probably embooze my blood system as collateral damage). 01:57:11 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CROMULENT CHICKEN). 02:04:08 -!- dioneone666999 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:13:51 -!- variable has joined. 02:14:12 http://cheezburger.com/8591039232/guy-edits-bands-wikipedia-page-to-get-backstage-has-beer-with-peking-duk?ref=relatedspp 02:16:23 they're paying for security 02:27:38 Oh god 02:27:43 This kid graduated in 2015 02:28:07 His senior quote was from Bill Cosby and Jared the Subway Guy was the person he looked up to the most 02:28:13 s/2015/2013/ 02:28:28 -!- andrew_ has joined. 02:45:23 -!- variable has changed nick to constant. 02:51:03 We should come up with a better unit of measurement than LoC 02:58:58 wtfs per hour 03:00:51 <\oren\> LadjLOC 03:01:06 <\oren\> Language Adjusted Lines of Code 03:01:48 <\oren\> Eg. we benchmark how much code tasks take in various languages, and aply a coeficiant 03:02:41 <\oren\> Also perhaps the LOC should be measured after reformatting to a standard whitespace rule 03:03:35 <\oren\> it's similar to GDP-PPP 03:04:22 \oren\: And what about BF? I think that our metric should work with languages that forgo LoC like BF or, worse, Befunge 03:04:48 \oren\: But also, removing code is good if you don't lose functionality 03:04:58 <\oren\> hmm, for character-oriented languages i guess we measure characters instead of lines 03:05:49 \oren\: But what about an equivalent BF program to a Python program? I imagine for most programs, the BF has more characters than the python has lines 03:06:05 <\oren\> but regardless, the procedure is measure the file somehow, then apply a standard coefieciant to convert it to CLOCE (C Lines of Code Equivalent) 03:06:19 And in Python, for example, is while x<5 really equivalent to a complex list generator? 03:06:30 \oren\: That's better 03:06:42 <\oren\> so in the case of BF, the coeficiant would be very small 03:07:04 Of course 03:07:13 \oren\: And what about libraries? Do we count those? 03:07:30 It depends on what you're measuring, of course 03:16:48 -!- constant has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero). 03:23:51 http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/516/361/e9d.jpg 03:23:52 WHAT 03:26:50 yo dawg i heard you like knives 03:40:21 they're also lighter 03:51:38 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:03:26 -!- tromp__ has joined. 04:06:24 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:12:28 [wiki] [[ROOP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46059&oldid=45970 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+2440) Computational class. Is turing complete! 04:15:23 [wiki] [[4]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46060&oldid=46058 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+0) /* The end */ 04:21:23 -!- dcentral has joined. 04:53:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:10:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:10:16 I had an idea for an AWESOME name for my Combinatory Logic Language 05:10:29 SCPL 05:10:48 It stands for Combinatory Logic Programming Language, 05:11:26 what's the s for? 05:11:27 Or more accurately, Combinatory Logic (Programming Langauge) 05:11:36 izabera: Just think about it for a second 05:12:08 i get it, it stands for stupid 05:12:17 izabera: Do you ACTUALLY get it? 05:12:41 (I got the behavior of the S combinator right, correct?) 05:12:57 i rest my case 05:13:14 -!- wtm_iphone has joined. 05:13:19 izabera: Oh come on, that's the greatest pun ever invented and you know it 05:13:23 Sure, that isn't saying much 05:13:26 -!- wtm_iphone has left. 05:13:27 But still 05:23:45 -!- mauris has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:52:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:55:48 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Element118 * New user account 06:56:12 "For example: in arbitrary-precision arithmetic, operations are often performed in a base that is equal to 2^word_size. The most basic division algorithm, "Schoolbook Division", has a step that will be taken in 2/B cases (where B is the base the numbers are in), given random input. On a 32-bit processor that is approximately one in two billion cases, for 64-bit it's one in 18 quintillion cases." 06:56:14 o.O 06:58:38 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:12:26 -!- adu has joined. 07:46:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 07:46:36 Reverse copyright: You have to use it in all publicly-published works, unless explicitly given permission by the copyright holder not to 07:47:20 *permission /not/ to 07:50:03 nice 08:00:36 whats got you all up 08:01:11 busy writing code 08:01:25 no time for irc 08:01:42 oh ok 08:03:08 in italy we say "who does X on new year's day, will do X all year long" 08:03:13 it rhimes in italian 08:03:24 rhymes 08:11:46 http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/31/health/mre-meals-study-feat/index.html tempting 08:13:37 $200, which isn't a lot, but hey, free MREs for 3 weeks 08:29:45 http://i.imgur.com/VdfKRhc.webm 09:30:03 Oh, it's new years 09:30:06 So yay 09:36:08 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:48:00 Is he ok/is that fake? 10:19:18 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 10:45:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 10:53:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:14:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 11:26:38 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:36:07 -!- mauris has joined. 11:46:29 I had an for an esoteric language: use jacquard loom cards for input, where the program output is a textile 11:48:05 -!- Welo has joined. 12:17:29 So, a Jacquard loom 12:21:10 Taneb: Jacquard looms aren't turing complete 12:25:07 [wiki] [[User talk:Oerjan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46061&oldid=41033 * LegionMammal978 * (+246) /* Deletion Request */ new section 12:54:26 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:39:53 -!- dcentral has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:49:12 [wiki] [[Asdf]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46062&oldid=39618 * 186.153.105.73 * (+1) /* Move the pointer left, regardless of toggle bit (note: may perform I/O at low addresses) */ simply "as" would also toggle the current bit 13:53:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:01:38 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:42:24 -!- mauris has joined. 15:17:43 -!- jameseb has joined. 16:02:12 -!- TieSoul has joined. 16:12:42 -!- mauris_ has joined. 16:16:11 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:02:01 -!- boily has joined. 17:19:04 `2016 17:19:14 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 2016: not found 17:19:19 `wisdom 17:19:21 guestbot/guestbot is nobody 17:28:44 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:47:19 -!- mauris_ has joined. 17:49:08 -!- mauris_ has changed nick to mauris. 17:54:56 `2015 17:54:57 Hello, world! 17:55:01 Ahahahah! 17:55:04 First time it's done that :) 17:55:13 (to my knowledge) 17:55:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 17:56:11 Apart from cheating times 17:57:06 -!- Lord_of_- has joined. 17:59:50 `2015 17:59:51 Hello, world! 18:00:28 why is there no copy as 2016? 18:00:35 `cp bin/2014 bin/2016 # let's see how good my memory is 18:00:37 cp: missing destination file operand after `bin/2014 bin/2016 # let\'s see how good my memory is' \ Try `cp --help' for more information. 18:00:41 `run cp bin/2014 bin/2016 # let's see how good my memory is 18:00:44 No output. 18:00:47 `2016 18:00:48 Hello, world! 18:00:51 :D 18:01:00 `run cp bin/2014 bin/2017 18:01:00 well ... 18:01:03 `2017 18:01:03 No output. 18:01:04 No output. 18:04:46 Tanelle, mynamello, hellolsner! 18:04:55 @tell oerjan where are my kittens? 18:04:55 Consider it noted. 18:05:10 @tell oerjan (I meant to @ask, not @tell) 18:05:10 Consider it noted. 18:05:30 boily: I ate them 18:33:36 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 18:43:09 nooooooooooooo! 18:43:15 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SPRUCED CHICKEN). 18:48:44 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:53:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:55:43 Is it good to eat? 18:56:07 I haven't seen context, but guessing, no 19:03:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:08:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:16:54 boily | @tell oerjan where are my kittens? 19:16:55 ly: I ate them 19:16:57 boily | nooooooooooooo! 19:17:01 fuck copy paste gone wrong 19:17:37 ais523: hi 19:17:43 hi 19:18:04 izabera: they're building their evil plan of hypnotizing all humans to telepathically control them and become the master of the universe 19:18:34 oh 19:18:35 ais523: I see you posted a new esolanguage that is evil in a sneaky way. 19:18:52 why do you consider it evil? 19:19:00 ais523: It doesn't have gotos, and it probably actually matters. You can't just emulate them with other control structures like in brainfuck. 19:19:01 `! 2014 test 19:19:07 or like in C 19:19:10 b_jonas: ah right 19:19:12 ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/2014: not found 19:19:13 I was aware of that 19:19:18 `` 2014 test 19:19:20 No output. 19:19:24 that program is in the wrong directory 19:19:35 decided to maintain the tradition of an end-of-year esolang, altough this time it wasn't dec 31 19:21:04 or at least it might take exponentially long programs to simulate it 19:21:09 but even that might not be enough 19:22:23 ofc, PMMN doesn't have this issue as it has reliable reads and writes 19:22:35 If only it had functions, it would be easy 19:25:38 are you sure? 19:25:48 I'm not 100% sure it's doable even with a finite state machine 19:32:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: No route to host). 19:32:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:41:31 I'm not sure really 19:41:41 I don't know what that language can do 19:42:02 I mean, come on, it's AT MOST a Minsky machines, and I don't like those, they're too powerless for my tastes 19:42:18 mind you, if it had functions, then you'd sort of have one stack, so it's not just a Minsky machine, but still 19:49:37 right, that's how I proved Splinter to be more than an FSM 19:50:04 b_jonas: I know now you have the account for comment on my custom cards but did you make the comment to write yet? 19:50:06 (its author was aiming for sub-TC, and thought it was an FSM; I'm pretty sure it's a PDA) 19:50:51 -!- variable has joined. 19:51:03 b_jonas: I think Minsky machines can be powerful enough to write practical programs in 19:51:07 if you have a sufficiently good interp 19:51:14 (I was writing one but burned out a bit) 19:51:25 actually it's a compiler, not an interp 19:51:36 it's already saved a factor of O(n) for the first program I wrote 19:54:07 the program in question prints consecutive integers in decimal 19:54:27 I'm hoping that when the compiler is finished, it'll run faster than the C equivalent, at least if it's written the obvious way with printf 20:01:52 -!- variable has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero). 20:04:01 zzo38: no, I don't think I made a comment yet 20:10:48 I would hope that anyone who would want to write such comment can have the account. It is now possible even if you do not have MD5 software on your computer, to use the form on the webpage if you have JavaScripts, to make the calculation. Also note, you can also use program "curl" to send the comments, and also to download the database; but use of web browser is also possible. 20:14:48 -!- mauris has joined. 20:19:21 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:36:15 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:43:48 -!- andrew_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:49:20 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:58:22 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:03:17 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:18:28 -!- TieSoul has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:38:42 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:44:17 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:45:00 I reiterate something I've said before 21:45:40 [[Call Queue]] should be moved to [[Call Queue (language)]] so we can make a page on the abstract concept of a Call Queue 21:46:52 I don't think a call queue is a common enough concept 21:47:41 there's an unfinished language I've worked on that uses a queue rather than a stack for recursion 21:48:03 but a separate queue for each function-equivalent 21:50:03 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 21:50:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 21:50:10 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 21:56:02 [wiki] [[Call stack]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46063 * Hppavilion1 * (+1422) Created page with a wholelotta red links 21:56:29 There. I think we needed that page. 21:57:26 For, y'know, information purposes for n00berific esolangers 22:02:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:02:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:06:40 [wiki] [[Call stack/Manipulation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46064 * Hppavilion1 * (+2065) Created Page 22:08:41 -!- variable has joined. 22:14:43 My esolangs page broke for reasons so I've had to remove the animations because I don't feel like figuring out CSS3 animations 22:17:10 -!- dcentral has joined. 22:18:45 -!- boily has joined. 22:20:03 [wiki] [[ChaitinFuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46065 * Hppavilion1 * (+2216) Created Page for study of Chaitin's Constant (there. A useful BF derivative.) 22:20:21 I have done it. 22:24:20 https://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/esolangs.html is the page I was talking about 22:29:24 hppavellon[1]. you ha ve done it. 22:29:35 s/ v/v/ 22:49:24 `wisdom 22:49:36 ... 22:49:36 hat/hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo 22:49:40 ah! :D 22:52:55 `wisdom 22:52:57 portmanteau/«Portmanteau» is the French spelling of “port man toe”. 22:53:06 `wisdom 22:53:08 horse/A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse! 22:53:12 `wisdom 22:53:14 md5/MD5 is a hash algorithm mainly used by underdeveloped aliens. 22:53:31 `` culprits wisdom/md5 22:53:38 mroman 22:54:01 @ask mroman mrhelloman. underdeveloped aliens? 22:54:01 Consider it noted. 23:00:50 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:05:59 `? evil 23:06:01 evil? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:17:41 -!- Elronnd has changed nick to earenndil. 23:31:51 -!- jaboja has joined. 23:34:35 -!- Alcest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:36:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:48:48 `wisdom 23:48:52 certainty/We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor. 23:49:06 `wisdom 23:49:08 caps lock/CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR TIRED OLD MEMES 23:49:10 `wisdom 23:49:13 gaspatsjo/gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days 23:49:39 followed by a lack of cold winter days 23:50:11 Norwegian climate converged, and now the forecast all year long is "Norwegian" 23:52:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:55:57 -!- gde33|2 has joined. 23:56:49 -!- heroux_ has joined. 23:57:21 -!- boily_ has joined. 23:57:47 h_oily_ 23:58:19 -!- digitalcold has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:59:10 -!- digitalcold has joined. 23:59:35 -!- mbrcknl_ has joined. 2016-01-02: 00:00:07 -!- glowcoil_ has joined. 00:00:22 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:00:23 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:00:23 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:00:24 -!- mbrcknl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:00:24 -!- glowcoil has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:00:24 -!- gde33 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:00:25 -!- relrod has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:00:26 -!- Hoolootwo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:00:31 -!- heroux_ has changed nick to heroux. 00:00:35 -!- relrod_ has joined. 00:00:36 -!- tromp has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer). 00:00:37 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 00:00:37 -!- relrod_ has quit (Changing host). 00:00:37 -!- relrod_ has joined. 00:00:58 -!- tromp has joined. 00:01:42 @ping 00:01:51 pong 00:02:05 oh _now_ you notice me 00:02:08 @messages- 00:02:08 boily said 5h 57m 13s ago: where are my kittens? 00:02:08 boily said 5h 56m 58s ago: (I meant to @ask, not @tell) 00:02:21 -!- mbrcknl_ has changed nick to mbrcknl. 00:03:12 -!- glowcoil_ has changed nick to glowcoil. 00:04:22 -!- \oren\ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:04:40 don't@askdon't@tell 00:04:44 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:05:08 I just went on a Recruiting mission on the xkcd Fora 00:05:22 -!- \oren\ has joined. 00:06:35 boily_: see http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3826 00:07:45 -!- ineiros has joined. 00:07:57 hppavilion[1]: fora? 00:08:06 -!- boily_ has changed nick to boily. 00:08:10 boily_: Correct latin for "forums" 00:08:27 imta there are multiple xkcd forumeses? 00:08:44 foraminifera 00:09:12 boily: Yes, there is more than one forum within the xkcd superforum 00:10:23 What novel and convoluted concept could I use instead of classes in an OO language? 00:12:35 [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:LegionMammal978/Interpreters/Kangaroo]]": Author request: content was: "
 using System; using System.Collections.Generic; using System.IO; using System.Text.RegularExpressions;  /* Error codes:  * 0 - success  * 1 ..." (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMamm
00:13:27  [wiki] [[User talk:Oerjan]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46066&oldid=46061 * Oerjan * (+90) /* Deletion Request */
00:14:42  hppavilion[1]: well you cannot use lectures, because INTERCAL already did.
00:14:44  hmm, I wonder why the author didn't want the kangaroo interp online?
00:15:01  he said the idea didn't work
00:15:29  hppavilion[1]: try castes hth
00:15:44  oerjan: And what would castes be?
00:16:04  that's your job hth
00:16:09  I suppose some castes are "above" others
00:16:30  my job is to throw out awful puns
00:16:50  wait is "throw out" the right p.v. here
00:17:14  ah yes
00:17:39  almost a self-antonym, that one
00:18:57  self-antonym has many synonyms, i see.  i think the winner is enantiodrome.
00:19:40  I like self-antonyms
00:19:56  "transparent" is a good one ("you can see the inner workings" vs. "you don't have to care about the inner workings")
00:21:17  "Some pairs of contronyms are true homographs, i.e., distinct words with different etymology which happen to have the same form. For instance cleave "separate" is from Old English clēofan, while cleave "adhere" is from Old English clifian, which was pronounced differently."
00:21:34  Perhaps groups, where you specify methods and elements?
00:21:46  i think those must be cognate to no:klyve and no:klebe
00:22:07  oerjan: where is that a quote from?
00:22:18  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym
00:22:49  thanks
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01:47:21  `wisdom
01:47:26  superexponential growth/Superexponential growth? SUPEREXPONENTIAL GROWTH?! HOLY CRAP!!!
01:47:37  fungot!
01:47:37  boily: never knew that adams has played guitar on a pink floyd gig...
01:47:46  fungot: me neither.
01:47:46  boily: ( which is absolutely no c whatsoever. even most of the topic, i came across an asm dump of metroid ( nes) ( a
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01:55:50  Whoo! I defined == for typemaker!
01:57:05  For the UnsignedIntegers at least
01:57:10  It's recursive xD
01:57:20  boily: I have defined == recursively.
02:00:35  Wait, I need to define a base case
02:00:48  There we go
02:00:53  It's just a return True
02:02:06  fungot~
02:02:07  FireFly: i have no real idea what " the scheme programming language, yes...
02:02:22  fungot: I think it delimits string literals
02:02:22  FireFly: that's easy in basic: 10 print " every problem looks like a minor third harmonic?
02:02:45  fungot: 20 goto 10?
02:02:45  FireFly: hmm would scheme run good on a stack, what's the action going to pay 80 for a fucking long time alright
02:03:12  `? ==
02:03:13  ​==? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:03:14  fungot: are we talking like 50s computers here?
02:03:14  FireFly: llc is you got a quote of how that can be easily modified, the ability to solve problems you need to
02:03:27  `le/rn ==/Did you know you can define == recursively!?
02:03:31  Learned «==»
02:29:08  Is it wrong that I think Plumpy'Nut sounds delicious?
02:29:21  I mean, it's for use for famine emergencies, not just because it sounds good
02:44:20  yes Sgeo it's very wrong
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02:45:27  "Plumpy'Nut is said to be "surprisingly tasty"." i mean even wikipedia thinks it's perfectly normal
02:49:58  Oh, by the way
02:50:00  Sgeo: Why, exactly, do you have Plumpy'Nut?
02:50:13  I'm trying to figure out a more logical way to write surreal numbers based on additional decimal places
02:50:37  pikhq, I don't
02:50:42  pikhq: he stole it from starving orphans hth
02:50:43  you can't write surreal numbers with additional decimal places
02:50:50  OIC
02:50:59  they are uncountable and cannot be represented by any finite notation
02:51:16  My current idea is this: the real number is written normally, except with ; instead of . for the decimal (so you can identify the centre)
02:51:19  oerjan: if I ever come to finland, how do I avoid you? asking for a friend
02:51:33  they are a proper class and cannot be represented by anything 'small'
02:51:37  coppro: that's easy since i'm in norway hth
02:51:54  i've never even been to finland
02:52:00  the scheme you are describing will give you some variation on the bog-standard extended reals
02:52:36  "Sign up for the Plumpy’Nut Challenge. They will send you a box of Plumpy’Nut packets. You must agree to only eat Plumpy’Nut for a few days to a week."
02:52:46  oerjan: tdh
02:52:59  wait, I've been to norway!
02:53:22  Each . after the decimal place is a separator so each the subsequent number is in the region of to ε**c, where c is the . count up to that point (inclusive)
02:53:57  So 31;41.59 is equal to 31.41+59ε
02:54:37  31;41.59.26 is equal to 31.41+59ε+26e**2
02:54:45  coppro: were you in trondheim? could have been a close call.
02:55:29  .. instead means tetration, so 31;41..59 is equal to 31.41+59ε**ε
02:55:37  ... is pentation
02:55:39  Et cetera
02:56:20  On the other side of the ;, you deal with ω
02:56:35 * oerjan is not entirely clear on whether surreal numbers have a decimal expansion even if you allow Omega digits
02:56:53  (Omega = class of all ordinals)
02:57:28  as in, (1) would they have a decimal expansion (2) would the digits be well ordered?
02:57:29  So 3.14 is actually equal to 3ω+14 in my representation, not to 3.14 (as a real number)
02:57:38  Then of course .. is tetration
02:57:41  ... is pentation
02:57:45  etc.
02:58:10  Now, there are some flaws I can think of with this, but it's better to help people understand the surreals than {|}
02:58:20  For example, how do your write sqrt(ω)?
02:58:43  sqrt(ω) isn't equal to sqrt(1)*ω=1*ω=ω, as far as I know. Then again, it might be.
02:58:47  Is it? I really don't know
02:59:20  oerjan: Do you know?
02:59:31  i never really learned beyond multiplication
02:59:34  Oh
02:59:49  i just know you can supposedly define lots of stuff
03:00:43  also, i'm not sure i ever learned multiplication properly.  i've probably forgotten it again.  addition and subtraction are easy though.
03:00:55  oerjan: yeah
03:01:02  this was like 6 years ago though
03:01:26  coppro: Do you know about sqrt(ω)?
03:01:36  no
03:02:25  oerjan: Oh, and of course, you fill in empty spaces with 0
03:02:56  So 1.0.14 is equal to ω**2+14ω**0 = ω**2+14
03:03:28  hppavilion[1]: i'm not sure you're defining a notation for surreals and not just ordinals
03:03:41  oerjan: Really? Dammit
03:03:44  What'm I missing?
03:03:58  looks pretty similar to cantor normal form for ordinals
03:04:10  The surreals are BIG, so I must be missing something xD
03:04:25  oerjan: Really? Yay! I made up something that a famous mathematician did something similar to!
03:04:36  well erm
03:04:47  the ω**2+14ω**0 stuff
03:04:53  not your actual notation.
03:04:59  Therefor I think vaguely like a certain famous mathematician!
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03:05:23  oerjan: Ah, that was me showing what it means. Whether that's equivalent to CNF is a matter of what I'm missing.
03:05:38  oerjan: I got the infinitessimals too, did you notice?
03:05:56  technically that should be ω**2+ω**0*14 because ordinals are not commutative
03:06:06  hppavilion[1]: ah no, then that's a bit more
03:06:18  oerjan: Ah
03:06:26  Noncommutativity, dammit
03:06:37  But are the surreals commutative?
03:08:48  oerjan: OK, so I got reals, numbers multiplied by infinitesimals, the same with powers of infinitesimals, and generally with any infinitesimal to an arbitrary power
03:08:52  huh that last thing messed up a character in irssi
03:09:09  the surreals are commutative, they're essentially a field
03:09:22  You can also do infinitesimals to a natural power to a- ah, that's something I'm missing
03:09:26  Wait, no
03:10:04  I'm not missing that, because ω=ε**-1
03:10:16  But I don't think you can do, for example, ε**(ε**2)
03:10:25  Or maybe you can.
03:10:26  Hm...
03:10:56  0;0..0.1 might be that
03:11:26  That's... I think it might be, actually
03:11:28  Yay!
03:12:27  But I think I AM missing ε**n where n is not an integer
03:12:37  Though you could do that with sum, of course
03:12:42  I think
03:13:09  But I got a good chunk of the surreals, so my notation is pretty good
03:13:35  I doubt it's possible to have a finite notation that can do ALL of the surreals, even with ellipses.
03:13:59  (that is, the plural of ellipsis, not ovals)
03:20:46  hppavilion[1]: You can't have finite notation for all the reals
03:20:51  And surreals subsume the reals
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03:22:33  or the ordinals
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03:51:48 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz9Irijq7ps <-- holy shit how did they even
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03:55:35 <\oren\> they even do the camera angles the same...
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05:18:00  Here's an operation
05:18:19  The Algebraic Conjugate
05:19:01  a+bi# = a+bj, a+bj# = a+bi (i**2=-1, j**2=1, j != 1)
05:19:14  a+bk**2=a+bk (k**2=0, k != 0)
05:20:07  k breaks everything
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05:27:50  also shouldn't that be   a+bk**2 = a ?
05:28:07  anyway if such k exist, that's not a domain
05:38:03  izabera: Whooops, I mean a+bk#
05:38:34  I'm rapidly switching tasks, so I sometimes type code that I'm frequently using into chat for something entirely unrelated
05:39:11  ("What was William Shakespear's last work?" "The coproduct of the category of categories of sets of numbers")
05:39:28  izabera: a+bk is the dual numbers; k is usually written epsilon, but I prefer k because it's typable
05:40:40  What is the name of the type of the algebra of numbers ai+bj? It's apparently not a Real 2D Algebra
06:21:30  So k^2 = 0?
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06:35:03  hppavilion[1]: How about this:  i^2 = j^2 = k^2 = ijk = -1
06:35:40  FreeFull: Yes, yes, you're very clever with the Quaternions or similar hypercomplex number
06:36:01  (YOU CANNOT TRICK ME! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!)
06:39:26  hppavilion[1]: It's literally just the quaternions =P
06:39:42  FreeFull: I know
06:40:04  Or more accurately, I knew it was at least similar (e.g. Tessarines or Coquaternions or Split-Biquaternions)
06:41:03 <\oren\> hold on are you telling me some of the accented letters aren't even pronounced any diferent from the ones without an accent?!@!?
06:42:31  \oren\: *sigh*
06:42:35  What language are you learning?
06:43:18 <\oren\> eh, just reading about accents in general
06:43:56  I bet you hate the (rare) diaresis.
06:44:05 <\oren\> apparently à is the same as à
06:44:08 <\oren\> apparently à is the same as a
06:44:30  Hence why "coöperate" and "cooperate" are pronounced the same.
06:44:51  The Polish ó and u are pronounced the same
06:45:33  Lemme guess, which you use is based on whether it's an "o" being modified because grammar or not?
06:45:44  same for ô and u in my region's dialect
06:46:45 <\oren\> pikhq: that's true for ç in French apparently
06:51:23 <\oren\> holy crap http://www.ortograf.net/
06:57:03  I'm embedding a secondary CAS in my CAS to make my CAS reduction easier to CAS
06:57:53 <\oren\> nah nah your doing it wrong
06:58:33 <\oren\> Yo I herd yo liek CAS so I put a CAS in yo CAS so u can CAS while you CAS
06:58:53  pikhq: Yeah
07:04:54  Fair enough, then.
07:21:37  The Polish alphabet has 32 letters
07:21:39 <\oren\> what sort of features would be expected of an esoteric human language
07:22:14  \oren\: Any word can be spoken backwards
07:23:58  \oren\: The subCAS is for the reduce() method of operations objects, which is basically programmed to do some simple reductions to make operations more efficient
07:24:23  So Sum(Var('x'), 0).reduce() is just Var('x')
07:25:00  The subCAS isn't a fully-fledged CAS, it's just a little object group with operations defined
07:27:34  It's the CAS before the CAS
07:27:40  A preprocessor, in some capacity
07:28:03  \oren\: The ability to discuss mathematics fluently and unambiguously
07:28:17  A basis in Combinatory Logic
07:28:35  \oren\: Were you the one who rejected my proposal to allow esoconlangs on the wiki?
07:28:39  Or was that oerjan?
07:33:20 <\oren\> hmm i dunno.
07:35:16  how does it matter?
07:36:59  also, is there some other youtube channel like xidnaf?
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09:28:30  ⊮ is feminism's favourite unicode character
09:28:45  LOLOLOLOLOLOL
09:31:11  "So mathematicians would say that you, Ernestine, and I are not totally ordered under winning at Ping-Pong."
09:37:09  That does not sound like something I would hear a mathematicians cay
09:37:11  *say
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10:05:13 <\oren\> `unicode ⊮
10:05:30  U+22AE DOES NOT FORCE \ UTF-8: e2 8a ae  UTF-16BE: 22ae  Decimal: ⊮ \ ⊮ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ Decomposition: 22A9 0338
10:06:16  Whoa. sqrt(2) is rational in the surreals.
10:06:26  mind.state := blown
10:06:59  \oren\: Was your mind.state == blown when you first learned that?
10:08:20 <\oren\> mind.setState(Mind::State_Blown);
10:14:26  \oren\: My solution is functional :)
10:14:34  (It just doesn't look like it)
10:14:47  (except for the :=)
10:16:35  sqrt(2)=sqrt(2*omega)/omega
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14:31:31  [wiki] [[V--]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46067&oldid=12182 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
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15:15:13  Happy 2017! https://www.reddit.com/r/shittyaskscience/comments/3yzt84/if_yesterday_was_2015_and_today_is_2016_is/
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15:46:38  `wisdom
15:46:47  welp/welp is humid kelp, and not at all related to toes, their hairs, and generic requests for TWHes and TDHes.
15:55:40  `wisdom
15:55:41  csv/CSV猫stands猫for猫Cat猫Separated猫Values
15:55:57  Of course
15:57:43  FirelloFly.
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16:05:53  Exam nervousness ahoy
16:07:02  Tanelle. you are suffering an exam on which subject today?
16:07:44  Well, I don't have any until Monday
16:07:47  Then I have 5 in four days
16:07:53  The first is formal methods
16:08:34  Then Algebraic Number Theory, then Eodermdrome, then Linear Optimization and Game Theory, then information theory
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16:09:56  one of these is not like the other.
16:10:07  s/r\./rs./
16:10:52  https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/modules/grat.html
16:12:14  Authentication Required.
16:13:01  Sorry
16:13:16 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
16:13:39  The aims of this module are to:
16:13:42  To introduce the foundations of computing by graph transformation
16:13:45  To introduce the principles of rule-based programming in domains of graph-like structures
16:13:59  As a result of studying this module students should: (1) be familiar with the main concepts and results of graph transformation; (2) be able to recognise problems in various areas of computer science as suitable for applying graph transformation; (3) be able to write graph programs for solving problems in graph-like domains and reason about program correctness and complexity. 
16:14:34  tdh.
16:16:34  a prolifer ?
16:17:13  boilyo
16:17:37  agawa, what about a profiler
16:18:01  said if is it a profiler
16:19:33  I am not sure I understand what you mean
16:21:00 * FireFly is a pro-lifer
16:21:47  thing that we are access-denied
16:22:08  It's the module description
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17:07:08  `wisdom
17:07:21  diet/People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
17:12:41  `? deit
17:12:43  deit? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:13:38  `run sed -i '' 's/loose/lose' wisdom/diet
17:13:39  sed: can't read s/loose/lose: No such file or directory
17:13:54  `run sed -i 's/loose/lose' wisdom/diet
17:13:55  sed: -e expression #1, char 12: unterminated `s' command
17:13:58 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*).
17:14:03  `run sed -i 's/loose/lose/' wisdom/diet
17:14:05  No output.
17:14:08  `? diet
17:14:09  People go on diets to lose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
17:14:23 -!- Frooxius has joined.
17:17:36  tswett, p sure that was deliberate, note 'consistant'
17:18:34  `run sed -i 's/lose/loose/' wisdom/diet
17:18:37  No output.
17:18:39  `? diet
17:18:41  People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
17:19:56  `? even
17:19:57  even? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:19:57  `? odd
17:19:58  odd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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17:56:15  `culprits wisdom/diet
17:56:18  tswett tswett int-e ais523 oerjan elliott oerjan FireFly
17:56:25  huh.
17:56:45 -!- Lord_of_- has quit (Excess Flood).
17:59:06  the "ais523" is I think from when I wrote a script to delete random wisdom entries, only it screwed up and did something unintentional
17:59:20  I'm not entirely sure what, but IIRC the next few names are from people trying to fix it
18:00:36 -!- Lord_of_- has joined.
18:08:09  `? ingredient
18:08:10  ingredient? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:09:42  The "huh" was mostly because I don't remember what it's supposed to reference, but IIRC it's a verbatim quote from somewhere
18:09:44  possibly spam
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22:12:21 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x232d 0x2335
22:12:22  Segmentation fault
22:12:33 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x232d 0x2325
22:12:34  Segmentation fault
22:12:52 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x232d 0x2335
22:12:53  ​⌭⌮⌯ \ ⌰⌱⌲⌳⌴⌵
22:13:00 <\oren\> boo
22:18:59 <\oren\> I'm trying to fill in any remaining gaps in the blocks I have completed
22:23:05  `thanks new year
22:23:06  Thanks, new year. Thew year.
22:24:04  `hello new year
22:24:06  Hello
22:24:19  oh.
22:24:20  `which hello
22:24:22  ​/hackenv/bin/hello
22:24:41  `cat bin/hello
22:24:43  echo Hello
22:29:46 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:38:42  Hmm.
22:38:48  `thanks Mark Rosewater
22:38:49  Thanks, Mark Rosewater. Thark Rosewater.
22:39:00  `thanks thanks
22:39:01  Thanks, thanks. Thanks.
22:39:15  `? pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism
22:39:17  pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:39:19  Er.
22:39:23  `thanks pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism
22:39:24  Thanks, pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism. Theudopseudohypoparathyroidism.
22:39:28  `thanks ?
22:39:29  Thanks, ?. T.
22:39:36  Interesting, that one.
22:39:39  `thanks
22:39:43  Thanks, neia. Theia.
22:39:49  Come again?
22:39:50  `thanks
22:39:52  Thanks, iloquallc. Thiloquallc.
22:39:59  `cat bin/thanks
22:40:00  ​#!/usr/bin/perl -CSDA \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
22:40:08  I see.
22:40:13  `run thanks ''
22:40:16  Thanks, aring. Tharing.
22:40:30  `run thanks ' '
22:40:31  Thanks, . .
22:40:57  `thanks hrmnzr
22:40:59  Thanks, hrmnzr. Trmnzr.
22:41:05  `thanks FBI
22:41:06  Thanks, FBI. ThI.
22:41:36 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:42:19  `thanks Schrödinger
22:42:20  Thanks, Schrödinger. Thinger.
22:43:44 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:44:58  `thanks rødgrød med fløde
22:45:00  Thanks, rødgrød med fløde. Thed fløde.
22:45:15  ö is an interesting consonant...
22:45:54  Sure is.
22:46:50  `thanks KILL A PUPPY EVERY DAY.
22:46:51  Thanks, KILL A PUPPY EVERY DAY.. ThILL A PUPPY EVERY DAY..
22:47:28  Is `evil still up?
22:47:29  `evil
22:47:31  KILL A PUPPY EVERY DAY.
22:47:33  Sure is.
22:47:54  `run thanks $(loudly Steve)
22:47:56  Thanks, Steve. Theve.
22:48:30  `run loudly $(thanks $(loudly Steve))
22:48:32  ​Thanks,
22:48:41  `run loudly $(loudly $(thanks $(loudly Steve)))
22:48:43  ​04,09T09,04h04,09a09,04n04,09k09,04s04,09,
22:48:50  \o/
22:49:47  `cat bin/evil
22:49:48  cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
22:50:38  `` echo ß | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
22:50:39  ​ß
22:50:50  `` echo ä | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
22:50:51  ​ä
22:51:17  `locale
22:51:18  LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
22:54:12  ``` locale
22:54:13  LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL=
22:54:14  `` locaqle
22:54:15  bash: locaqle: command not found
22:54:16  `` locale
22:54:17  LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
22:58:39  I'm designing a programming language for the xkcd phone
22:58:48  http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=113269
23:02:14 -!- jaboja has joined.
23:05:20 <\oren\> `` echo lo | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
23:05:21  LO
23:05:39 <\oren\> ok so it isn't that
23:06:39 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:09:44 <\oren\> `` loudly 素晴らしい
23:09:45  ​素晴らしい
23:09:51 <\oren\> AAUAUAAUAUA
23:14:41  `cat bin/loudly
23:14:42  ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
23:16:07  `which python3
23:16:08  No output.
23:20:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:21:43  Is a UTM that only runs when its being watched Turing complete?
23:23:14  would seem to require a watcher with unbounded lifespan hth
23:30:42  Taneb: yes
23:30:47  it's still Turing complete
23:37:12 <\oren\> just pass down a tradition of watching the UTM in your family
23:40:29 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said).
23:42:58  `which python
23:43:00  ​/usr/bin/python
23:43:24  Only the observable part of the behavior matters.
23:47:53  "Be officially informed that we have arrested a diplomat [..] with your consignment that contains huge amount of money [..] The diplomat claims that you are DEATH, therefore your consignment is being diverted [..]"
23:48:08  I hope I'm not DEATH.
23:49:51  are you DESTROYER OF WORLDS?
23:50:46  Is that the sort of thing you know you are if you are? 
23:51:07  good question.
23:58:29  fungot, would you know that you are destroyer of worlds if you were?
23:58:29  b_jonas: heh to just pop something from the cvs, and irc protocols. distributing loadable modules and drivers as source and still having them for normal grouping)
23:59:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).

2016-01-03:

00:00:12  fungot: loadable bus drivers?
00:00:13  b_jonas: what's slides? fnord/ down etc... and not if... let x be the cdr then...
00:00:27  fungot: you dropped your parenthesis somehwere
00:00:27  b_jonas: and what you wrote down. so, you couldn't count various calls at the same time
00:00:34  fungot: three?
00:00:34  b_jonas: in the subject yet... and i'm failing to see the function fizzie pasted "?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord....
00:08:45 -!- augur has joined.
00:14:37  `` sed -ire 's/inp\)$/unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))' bin/loudly
00:14:38  sed: -e expression #1, char 101: unterminated `s' command
00:14:48  `` sed -ire 's/inp\)$/unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))/' bin/loudly
00:14:49  sed: -e expression #1, char 102: Unmatched ) or \)
00:16:31  `` sed -ire 's/inp\)$/unicode\(inp, locale.nl_langinfo\(locale.CODESET\)\)\).encode\(locale.nl_langinfo\(locale.CODESET\)\)/' bin/loudly
00:16:32  sed: -e expression #1, char 111: Unmatched ) or \)
00:16:47  wut.
00:17:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:18:53  `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -e 's/(/)/g'
00:18:54  ​))))))))
00:19:19  `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -re 's/\(/)/g'
00:19:20  ​))))))))
00:19:22  hmm
00:19:38  `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -re 's/\(/\)/g'
00:19:39  ​))))))))
00:20:49  That's funny, an unmatched \( seems to be fine.
00:21:05  `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -re 's/\)/\(/g'
00:21:06  ​((((((((
00:21:12  `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -e 's/\)/\(/g'
00:21:13  sed: -e expression #1, char 9: Unmatched ) or \)
00:21:17  `` echo '(()(()))' | sed -e 's/\(/\(/g'
00:21:18  sed: -e expression #1, char 9: Unmatched ( or \(
00:21:23  not really...
00:21:36  Oh, I didn't notice the -r bit.
00:21:43  I don't generally sed -r.
00:23:34  `cat bin/loudly
00:23:35  ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
00:24:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:32:18  `` sed -ie 's/inp\)$/unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))/' bin/loudly
00:32:20  sed: -e expression #1, char 102: Unmatched ) or \)
00:32:42  hmph
00:32:59  `` sed -ie 's/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))/' bin/loudly
00:33:01  No output.
00:33:06  `cat bin/loudly
00:33:07  ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))
00:33:22  `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
00:33:24  Traceback (most recent call last): \   File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 5, in  \     print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET)) \ NameError: name 'locale' is not defined
00:33:33  hah
00:33:41  `revert
00:33:49  rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:35:13  hm
00:35:17  `revert
00:35:21  rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:35:51  `` sed -i 's/itertools/itertools, locale/' bin/loudly
00:35:54  No output.
00:35:59  `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
00:36:01  Traceback (most recent call last): \   File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 4, in  \     cyc = itertools, locale.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'cycle'
00:36:09  ff
00:36:56  `revert 6483
00:36:59  rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:37:06  `cat bin/loudly
00:37:08  ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
00:37:23 -!- dcentral has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:37:25  Melvar: WHATEVER
00:38:12  oh duh
00:38:34  `revert 6486
00:38:36  rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:38:53  `` sed -i '2s/itertools/itertools, locale/' bin/loudly
00:38:56  No output.
00:39:02  `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
00:39:03  Traceback (most recent call last): \   File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 5, in  \     print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET))).encode(locale.nl_langinfo(locale.CODESET)) \ UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 1: ordinal not in range(128)
00:39:30  `revert 6483
00:39:33  rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:41:01  Melvar: YOUR CODE IS NOT WORKING TDNH
00:42:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
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01:02:36 -!- ent0nces_ has joined.
01:02:51 <\oren\> OH GOD DAMN IT
01:04:33  hi \oren\ 
01:04:47  under attack by murphy's law?
01:05:54 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:07:39 <\oren\> yeaj
01:08:01 <\oren\> I just lost to Dark Link again
01:11:51 <\oren\> sheik is not good against Dark Link
01:14:44 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
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01:40:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:42:21  `loudly ooo
01:42:23  ​ooo
01:42:29  `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
01:42:30  ​Rødgrød med fløde
01:42:36  o
01:42:39  o
01:42:43 * tswett claps.
01:42:52  oooo
01:42:59  oooo
01:43:03  oooo
01:43:08  oooo
01:43:15  did Elronnd get stuck in a loop
01:43:32  That's uncomputable.
01:43:39  darn
01:43:44  insufficient data cannot compute
01:43:49  Well... uncomputable in general. Elronnd might be really simple.
01:43:51  uncomputable /in general/
01:43:58  bleh, you beat me to the correction
01:44:05  `loudly Rødgrød med fløde
01:44:06  ​Rødgrød med fløde
01:44:18  `loudly aaaaaaaaaaaaa
01:44:19  ​aaaaaaaaaaaaa
01:44:23  `loudly aaaaaaaaaaaaä
01:44:24  ​aaaaaaaaaaaaä
01:44:37  `lskdfjalsdkjf
01:44:38  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lskdfjalsdkjf: not found
01:44:40  `loudly é
01:44:42  ​é
01:44:53  `loudly ÒÓ
01:44:54  ​ÒÓ
01:45:02  `run loudly é | unidecode
01:45:04  ​ \ close failed in file object destructor: \ sys.excepthook is missing \ lost sys.stderr
01:45:11  `loudly ò_Ó
01:45:13  ​ò_Ó
01:45:18  `loudly ò_Ó | unicode
01:45:19  ​ò_Ó | unicode
01:45:25  `loudly ò_Ó | uniencode
01:45:26  ​ò_Ó | uniencode
01:45:50  `echo * | xargs rm
01:45:51  ​* | xargs rm
01:46:04  `echo one; echo two; echo three
01:46:05  one; echo two; echo three
01:50:37  `run loudly ë | loudly
01:50:39  ​04,0909,04
01:50:48  `run loudly ë | loudly | loudly
01:50:49  ​04,0909,04004,09409,04,04,09009,04904,09,
01:50:53  `run loudly ë | loudly | loudly | loudly
01:50:54  ​04,0909,04004,09409,04,04,09009,04904,09,
01:51:00  `run loudly ë | loudly | loudly | loudly | loudly
01:51:03  ​04,0909,04004,09409,04,04,09009,04904,09,
01:51:14  Fixed point!
01:51:26  `run loudly é > 'loudly é'
01:51:30  No output.
01:51:35  `run unidecode < 'loudly é'
01:51:37  No output.
01:51:45  `run echo 'loudly é'
01:51:46  loudly é
01:51:52  `run cat 'loudly é'
01:51:54  ​é
01:52:08  `run unidecode $(cat 'loudly é')
01:52:10  Traceback (most recent call last): \   File "/hackenv/bin/unidecode", line 4, in  \     s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \   File "/usr/lib/python2.7/encodings/utf_8.py", line 16, in decode \     return codecs.utf_8_decode(input, err
01:52:22  ¿
02:00:09  `'loudly ó'
02:00:10  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 'loudly: not found
02:00:14  `loudly ó
02:00:15  ​ó
02:00:18  `loudly 'ó'
02:00:19  ​'ó'
02:12:50  `lodly hi
02:12:51  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lodly: not found
02:12:51  `loudly hi
02:12:52  ​hi
02:15:44  `quietly bye
02:15:45  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quietly: not found
02:15:47  ...
02:15:49  -_-
02:15:51  You have failed me
02:16:42  `` cat 'echo' > /bin/quietly
02:16:43  bash: /bin/quietly: Read-only file system
02:16:47  err
02:16:49  `` cat 'echo' > bin/quietly
02:16:51  cat: echo: No such file or directory
02:16:58  `` echo 'echo' > bin/quietly
02:17:01  No output.
02:17:03  `` chmod a+x bin/quietly
02:17:06  No output.
02:17:08  `quietly test
02:17:09  No output.
02:17:11  hmm
02:17:19  `` echo 'echo " "' > bin/quietly
02:17:21  `quietly test
02:17:22  No output.
02:17:23  No output.
02:17:33  looks like I need an actual character there
02:17:40  `` printf 'echo "\xa0"' > bin/quietly
02:17:42  No output.
02:17:44  `quietly test
02:17:45  ​
02:17:57  how misencoded is /that/?
02:18:02  `` printf 'echo "\xc2\xa0"' > bin/quietly
02:18:04  No output.
02:18:07  `quietly test
02:18:08  ​ 
02:18:10  there we go
02:18:32 * ais523 tries to work out how HackEgo and/or Konversation deduced three characters of output from a single \xa0
02:18:48  `unidecode ​ 
02:18:50  U+00E2 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX \ UTF-8: c3 a2  UTF-16BE: 00e2  Decimal: â \ â (Â) \ Uppercase: U+00C2 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 0061 0302 \  \ U+0080  \ UTF-8: c2 80  UTF-16BE: 0080  Decimal: € \ € \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \  
02:22:14  ais523: because HackEgo prepends an zero-width space
02:22:52  aha, and the utf-8 zero width space got interpreted as latin-1 because the comment as a whole wasn't valid utf-8?
02:22:57  yeah
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03:44:33  @botsnack
03:44:34  :)
03:44:56  @botsnake
03:44:56  :)
03:45:16  I wonder.
03:45:18  @hens
03:45:18  Maybe you meant: oeis help
03:45:35  @nixon
03:45:35  Voters quickly forget what a man says.
03:45:47  Wait, that's actually a command?
03:45:51  @vixen
03:45:52  The Chinese use two brush strokes to write the word 'crisis.' One brush stroke stands for danger; the other for opportunity. In a crisis, be aware of the danger - but recognize the opportunity.
03:46:00  @vixen
03:46:01  You have to face the fact that whole problem is really the blacks. The key is to divise a system that reconizes this while not appearing to...
03:46:13  Is @vixen correcting to @nixon?
03:46:16  @help vixen
03:46:16  help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands
03:46:19  @help nixon
03:46:19  Richard Nixon's finest.
03:46:31  @vixen Like, this is just going to give me a Nixon quote or whatever?
03:46:31  A man who has never lost himself in a cause bigger than himself has missed one of life's mountaintop experiences. Only in losing himself does he find himself. Only then does he discover all the latent strengths he never knew he had and which otherwise would have remained dormant.
03:46:42  @feet
03:46:43  Say again?
03:46:50  @feet Say what again?
03:46:50  $4y whAt AG4In?
03:46:58  @pulp
03:46:58  Maybe you meant: pl help
03:48:18  @prawn
03:48:19  It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob.
03:48:43 -!- bender| has joined.
03:49:12  @crawl
03:49:13  Unknown command, try @list
03:49:18  @help prawn
03:49:19  help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands
03:49:34  @prawn
03:49:34  It is here that my cheap workforce of trained iguanas will work
03:49:34  night and day to make our shoes to my exacting specifications!
03:49:40  @prawn Can I give input here?
03:49:40  Pinky, I am in considerable pain.
03:49:52  Ooh. I think I've figured out what it is.
03:49:56  darn
03:50:02  @brian
03:50:02  Promise me something, Pinky. Never breed.
03:50:10  @plain
03:50:10  It is here that my cheap workforce of trained iguanas will work
03:50:11  night and day to make our shoes to my exacting specifications!
03:50:23  @braille
03:50:24  Unknown command, try @list
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03:56:56  ^botsnack
03:56:56  Oh nom nom nom!
03:57:11  boilysnack
04:03:57  snarf chew chew garble ^^
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04:45:13  What happens when you do the Surreals with a left, right, and middle?
04:45:18  0 = {||}
04:45:24  Or four corners?
04:45:31  0 = {--|--}
04:45:42  tie-fighter surreals.
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06:09:34 <\oren\> I BEAT GANON
06:16:15 -!- jaboja has joined.
06:27:27  \oren\: congrats
06:27:28  which game?
06:28:24 <\oren\> Hyrule Warriors
06:31:31  ah
06:31:40  I learned to speedrun super mario galaxy today
06:36:25 <\oren\> cool
06:36:37 <\oren\> does it involve hidden warpzones
06:36:42  Gonna show your mad skillz at AGDQ tomorrow?
06:40:39  \oren\: nope
06:40:41  pikhq: that's the plan
06:40:49  I'm going to kill miles and take his power
06:41:13  Fabulous.
07:33:44  To make a lambda, we write a \ (because it kind of looks like the greek letter lambda if you squint hard enough)
07:33:54      - LYAH
07:35:50  For the record, I squinted really hard at a backslash to check and it does indeed resemble λ
07:45:39   I'm a big fan of 50 Cent. Or, as he's called in Zimbabwe, Four hundred million dollars.
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08:17:07  Just defined function composition for LispRule (a language supported by λ-Nomic): http://pastebin.com/puNcfqiq
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10:05:56  IDEA TIME
10:06:29  Classical Programming: Like functional programming, but classes instead. Entire language is based around creating subclasses and subclassing them
10:06:40  This is not a language feature; it is the language itself.
10:07:37  And it's not a way of holding functions in an object; the functions are just there to give the class a body. The language is really just about the classes and operating on them.
10:07:50  It's not OO, because there aren't objects involved; it's just classes
10:08:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: This part of the topic was the first added in 2016 | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
10:11:17  OK, please do! Either invent such a thing or add to the list of ideas, or just try to figure out more and see if you can
10:11:31  zzo38: That's what I was about to do xD
10:11:35  Idea of kind of custom duel deck of Magic: the Gathering cards:  Urza vs Mishra, Old vs New, Phyrexian vs Eldrazi, Even Costs vs Odd Costs, West vs East, North vs South, Simplicity vs Complexity.
10:11:48  hppavilion[1]: Yes, I hope you do; I would want to see it too.
10:12:14  zzo38: Eldritch Abominations vs Bunnies
10:13:31  OK, that is another one. If some cards that should be use do not exist officially, make up some custom cards; same apply to all of these custom duel decks though
10:14:18  What happens when you compose the SYA with itself?
10:14:59  "SYA" meaning what?
10:15:06  SYA**2("2+2*3/6") -> ?
10:15:12  zzo38: Shunting-Yard Algorithm
10:15:37  The thingy for converting from infix to goofix
10:15:41  *goodfix
10:15:44  I mean postfix
10:16:26  GOOFIX NOTATION
10:16:35  2+2*... ew.
10:17:05  O, that is what it is. Yes I have heard of that algorithm
10:17:30  A converter from infix to goofix in python: def in2goo(infix): return infix[:5]+'... ew.'
10:18:06  Now that I think about it, it probably just crashes xD
10:18:38  Yeah, it must just crash
10:20:35  I read the description in Wikipedia, and I am not sure why it should crash.
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11:02:05  `? goofix
11:02:08  goofix? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:03:05  `learn Goofix is an antropomorphic canine arithmetic notation.
11:03:08  Learned 'goofix': Goofix is an antropomorphic canine arithmetic notation.
11:06:56 -!- Welo has joined.
11:14:08  b_jonas: What kind of custom duel deck you like to try to make up? (Since it is duel deck, restrictions about deck size and card duplicates can be ignored if it is deemed worthwhile)
11:16:29  zzo38: there were some ideas in http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/arcana/1560
11:20:17  OK, but I mean you
11:21:35  I don't know really. I usually build a deck only for myself, trying to beat an entire metagame of many decks (not that I manage, but that's the goal), rather than a duel
11:29:42  If I built a deck only against myself, it would be weak and one-sided because it wouldn't defend against strategies other players use. 
11:29:46  I don't think it would be good.
11:32:02 -!- mauris has joined.
11:34:24  There should need to be enough interactions between them, whether or not they are good for other formats
11:38:37  by the way, I was wondering if a "bicubic" casual format could work: namely two players each build half of a cube, then after they comitted to the card pool in their half, the list of cards is revealed, the two are merged, and 4 to 8 players use some sealed deck or draft variants to build decks and sideboards from that pool.
11:43:56  the two players take the same number of cards, each one can put at most 2 copies of any card, and in total among the two, there should be 100 timed the number of players cards for a sealed deck, and much less than that for most drafts
11:45:47 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
11:45:50  OK
11:46:28  That seem it can work I suppose, if you have the ban list and so on still
11:46:47  `` sed -ie 's/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())/' -e '2s/$/, locale' bin/loudly; 
11:46:48  sed: -e expression #1, char 13: unterminated `s' command
11:47:10  `cat bin/loudly
11:47:11  ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
11:47:17  `` sed -ie 's/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())/' -e '2s/$/, locale/' bin/loudly; 
11:47:20  sed: can't read s/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())/: No such file or directory
11:47:38  Wat.
11:48:00  Oh. -i[SUFFIX].
11:48:19  `` sed -i -e 's/inp[)]$/unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())/' -e '2s/$/, locale/' bin/loudly
11:48:38  No output.
11:48:43  `cat bin/loudly
11:48:44  ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools, locale, locale \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding())
11:48:52  `loudly föo
11:48:54  ​föo
11:48:59  urgh, and that has been the problem all this time... missed it
11:49:17  (using -i the wrong way)
11:49:37  Well it would have worked as long as there was only one script.
11:49:53  well, you had -ire there...
11:50:11  and the -r was kind of important
11:50:22  Ah. Yeah.
11:50:27  `loudly 素晴らしい
11:50:29  ​素晴らしい
11:51:23  \oren\: ↑ Fixed it.
11:51:30  (Finally.)
11:54:21  ``` loudly foo
11:54:22  ​foo
11:54:27  ``` loudly föo
11:54:28  Traceback (most recent call last): \   File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 5, in  \     print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in unicode(inp, locale.getpreferredencoding())).encode(locale.getpreferredencoding()) \ UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 1: ordinal not in range(128)
11:55:14  Exactly as expected. ∑:3
12:00:55  Sure, ban list is fine, and you'd need normal limited deck-building rules: at least 40 cards in main deck, all the rest of your picks is sideboard, as many basic lands as you want.
12:01:35 <\oren\> yay!
12:03:13  b_jonas: Yes, although you should say "as many conventional basic lands as you want", since you aren't allowed to add nonconventional basic lands unless available in your card pool (whether draft or sealed)
12:04:11  yes yes
12:04:14  basic basic lands
12:04:22  Two-players limited format is possible such as Solomon draft, although other formats are also possible with two players
12:04:39  since there will about to be six different extra basic lands very soon
12:04:43  there's already five
12:04:49  I prefer the term "conventional basic lands"
12:05:03  (I don't know if an official term exists though)
12:05:04  ok, make it conventional basic lands
12:11:59  also, AGDQ starts very soon
12:12:00  Colored basic lands?
12:14:33  haavard: um, no. they're all colorless. the rat thing doesn't count because it's not a land.
12:14:51  Hm, that's true
12:15:02  Conventional basics it is
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12:21:03  @metar lowi
12:21:03  LOWI 031150Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW006 SCT080 05/02 Q1008 R08/29//95 NOSIG
12:21:46  (and a bit of snow on the ground... melting)
12:23:43  int-e: yep
12:23:50  @metar EGLL
12:23:51  EGLL 031150Z AUTO 15018KT 9999 -RA OVC010/// //////TCU 09/08 Q0989 BECMG RA
12:23:53  there was snow here too two days abo
12:23:55  ago
12:24:18  I think I dreamed there was snow here, but there hasn't been any.
12:27:31  How do you decode that information? I assume it's easier than it looks..
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12:32:17  At airport EGLL, the 03'th day of the month, 11:50 UTC, don't know about AUTO, wind direction 150 degrees and speed 18 knots, visibility "good", light (-) rain (RA) but increasing (BECMG RA), overcast cloud cover at 10 hundred feet, buncha weird slashes, temperature 9 degrees and dew point 8, barometric pressure 989 hectopascals.
12:33:00  The formatting varies a bit between airports.
12:33:34  AUTO is apparently "no humans were harmed^Winvolved during the production of this report".
12:36:06  very humid...
12:37:46  This is the kind of weather I was expecting when we moved here.
12:38:12  hmm
12:38:16  do finns seek humidity because it reminds them of a sauna
12:38:29  has anyone made an esolang yet where the source code  masquarades as metar output lines?
12:39:15  that's too metar
12:42:22  @metar enzv
12:42:23  ENZV 031220Z 11013KT 9999 FEW048 01/M09 Q1014 TEMPO 12022G32KT
12:42:42  lol
12:42:56  the intel 4004 had more general-purpose registers than x86-32
12:52:47 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:54:28  Quite a bit "less general-purpose", though.
13:02:46  A whole IDE built in a browser sounds ridiculous until you try using a whole IDE built in Java.
13:03:32  Phantom_Hoover: the original 386 didn't have any general purpose registers. it was the later SSE2 extension that added those to the x86_32 arch. in the original 386, you had to do all the general purpose arithmetic in the painfully small (32 bit sized) index registers, or in the limited floating point registers.
13:05:51  That is, by the way, also the situation in contemporary Linux x86_64 kernels in the main kernel outside of kernel threads, because for some historical compatibility nonsense, 
13:06:57  the kernel shies away from using the general purpose registers, for using them would introduce SEVERAL CYCLES OF PRECIOUS TASK SWITCH PENALTY each time you switch to an x86_32 task compiled in an obsolate way so it itself doesn't use those general purpose registers.
13:07:02  I'm SERIOUS!
13:08:01  The kernel doesn't use the xmm register, because if it did, then every time there's a task switch, the cpu would have to automatically save and restore those registers, even if one of those processes doesn't use them. 
13:08:12  It's just hilarious, and all for the bad historical reasons. 
13:08:46  And this isn't even really imposed by the cpu. The kernel could break this nonsense any time if the Linux developers just so willed to switch a switch.
13:09:01  But they're afraid of traditions and microbenchmarks and stuff like that making them look bad.
13:10:18  It doesn't matter that most of the actual computations of the kernel could be done much faster by the occasional use of those xmm registers, if they just made some trivial changes in the kernel compilation options and the compiler to use them. 
13:10:45  Because then you'd have to load or store SEVERAL WORDS FROM THE MEMORY EACH (rare case) TASK SWITCH and oh look how bad that would make us look like oh the pain!
13:10:55  These kernel guys are sissies.
13:12:27  If it's that trivial to do, surely someone has done it and demonstrated the real-world gains from this vague "much faster" execution of "most of the actual computations of the kernel" in a thing you could refer to? 
13:12:51  fizzie: well, it's not _that_ trivial. it would need some changes in the compiler.
13:13:13  and I hope someone has actually tried it, or else I'm misunderstanding something so much that it's obvious to real kernel people why it wouldn't work.
13:13:35  and mind you, you can put the heavy computation (like crypto) into kernel threads, and then those can use the xmm.
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13:49:23 <\oren\> I prefer the 6502 it has 256 general purpose registers.
13:54:19 -!- jaboja64 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
13:57:10  is that one of the processors with a special addressing mode for the first 256 bytes of memory?
13:57:23 <\oren\> yup
13:57:57 <\oren\> specifically it can do things like increment a given byte in the zero page
13:58:49 <\oren\> or indirectly index a byte in memory by an address in zero page
13:59:03 <\oren\> so they sort of act like general purpose registers
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14:31:11  okay, I'll rewrite the whole thing in Rust when Unison's process.py reaches 2000 lines of code
14:31:21  it is becoming harder to keep up with
14:32:06  https://arin.ga/LttQ8b/raw  is this esoteric?
14:32:47  not really?
14:32:58  Looks like a roman numerals parser
14:33:33  yep but it's in sed <.<
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16:10:14  `wisdom
16:10:24  phantom___hoover/Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself.
16:19:09  what
16:20:21  `wisdom
16:20:23  drone/drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
16:22:58 -!- dcentral has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:23:28  `wisdom
16:23:30  ethanol/Ethanol is a Group 1 carcinogenic substance since 1988.
16:26:15  `? avatar
16:26:16  avatar? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:33:13  `wisdom
16:33:15  zimbabwe/olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
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16:49:54  woot agdq!
16:50:11  coppro: wood
16:50:28  there's GTA and mario maker and super monkey ball and lots of games
16:51:57  agdq?
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16:54:17  boily: gamesdonequick.com
16:54:53  `? agdq
16:54:55  agdq? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:55:16  `learn AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity
16:55:21  `learn SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity
16:55:22  Learned 'agdq': AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity
16:55:26  Learned 'sgdq': SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity
16:55:29  oh wait, those need urls
16:56:13  `learn AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever winter, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
16:56:18  Learned 'agdq': AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever winter, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
16:56:23  `learn SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever summer, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
16:56:27  Learned 'sgdq': SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever summer, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
16:57:14  laggy bot
16:57:18  spammy user
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17:21:13  helloily
17:22:59  quinthellopiaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:23:55  what do?
17:25:21  last day of vacation! but I had a turkey tomato mayo bagel.
17:25:40  are you atlantaing?
17:26:01  yep
17:26:04  last day
17:26:05  so sad
17:27:35  i am
17:27:50  the weather finally colded slightly
17:27:57  but its nice out
17:28:14  do you want to game a game?
17:28:52  I'm cubing with the bro. want to join the server?
17:30:39  rubik's cubes?
17:30:44  on a server?
17:42:53  i dont have that game
17:55:28  ugh, the very worst level in Enigma is a rubik's cube simulator
17:55:37  the reason why it's so bad is that it also has reverse floor and swamp and abyss
17:55:46  stick to one puzzle at a time, people!
17:57:52 -!- Lord_of_- has quit (Excess Flood).
17:59:06 -!- Lord_of_- has joined.
17:59:15  oh wow, 6% in metroid prime 2 is now faster single-segment than 100%
18:05:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:06:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:06:44  ais523: yeah
18:07:02  the discovery of MBI in Sanctuary was huge
18:07:18  oh, don't have to smuggle it all the way from the other end of the map
18:07:28  now I sort-of want to see a "low% without item loss skip"
18:10:05  it's also way way easier to do now, because you don't have to use IS which means no lightshow
18:10:26  (it was discovered that you don't need IS to get MBI; you just need to activate a cannon without a properly loaded room)
18:10:39  for some reason I thought the hardest part was amber translator skip
18:11:24  are you talking about sanddigger or something else?
18:12:13  no, it's some really hard wallcrawl to get around one gate, I forget exactly where but IIRC it's between one of the main areas and temple grounds
18:12:14  in that direction
18:12:19  oh, hive dash?
18:12:22  the hard part is the getting OoB in the first place
18:12:22  yep
18:12:24  I think
18:12:29  you can actually avoid that now thanks to the MBI
18:12:39  I dunno if it's faster though
18:14:29  hive dash is still not grand abyss, though
18:15:50  and you need screw attack to do the walljumps to the final boss, right?
18:17:19  thus grand abyss is in every non-grapple-beam category
18:17:34  yes
18:17:41  (the skip, that is; the room is in every category full stop)
18:18:36  did you hear about the Wii U trilogy edition of Prime 3, btw?
18:18:44  no
18:19:00  also I don't have a Wii U so it doesn't interest me that much, and I'd be shocked if they hadn't patched all the fun out ;-)
18:19:18  despite having all of the trilogy "fixes" which ruin many speed tricks, it is faster in some (can't remember if all) categories than the original because of the improved loading times
18:19:30  that's how bad loading is on Prime 3 T_T
18:20:10  I thought the only speed trick that was patched out between corruption and trilogy3 was hazard shield skip
18:20:23  no, they changed a number of small things
18:20:46  (which is a ridiculous thing to patch out because it seems unlikely to make the game unwinnable, the hardest part to get past without hazard shield is the one where the skip happens)
18:22:02  I'm excited for the Prime run Tuesday, it now includes IS
18:22:25  oh man, if they could get Zoid on to talk about IS...
18:22:27  I'm excited for the GTA3 run
18:22:35  coppro: I doubt he knows what causes it
18:23:08  ais523: me neither. But it would be funny to hear him wtf, especially if he's not seen it be used to grab Wave before
18:23:31  ais523: speaking of which, I've been thinking of making a web application to store speedrun trick & routing information
18:23:45  sort of like a domain-specific wiki, sort of in the style of M2K2
18:24:18  coppro: TASvideos and SDA each have one of their own of those, and people hardly update them
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18:24:31  Two years ago, AGDQ was a small event. Now it's huge.
18:24:57  b_jonas: the first SGDQ was just held at one of the runners' houses
18:25:13  ais523: but they're not domain-specific
18:25:16  they're just generic wikis
18:25:33  coppro: how would it differ from ordinary wikis?
18:25:53  there are a few wiki sites for specific games
18:26:40  mediawiki in particular has a lot of excess syntax that makes using it for domain-specific stuff a lot of work, because you're trying to store all the data in flat text files in the end
18:26:47  and the text syntax is atrocious to boot
18:27:34  I'm thinking something like defining a few types of objects (categories, routes, tricks, techniques, areas) and defining the links between them in a more consistent way
18:27:50  possibly with an API as well
18:29:12 -!- Welo has joined.
18:29:15  I like mediawiki syntax. 
18:29:25  it's nice for simple applications
18:29:35  but complicated stuff is torture, especially anything involving tables or nested conditionals in templates
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18:29:58 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
18:31:29  ais523: last line was  but complicated stuff...
18:31:46   possibly with an API as well
18:31:50  last I saw
18:32:10  13:29:15 < b_jonas> I like mediawiki syntax. 
18:32:10  13:29:25 < coppro> it's nice for simple applications
18:32:10  13:29:35 < coppro> but complicated stuff is torture, especially anything involving tables or nested conditionals in templates
18:32:37  most wiki syntaxes are much worse at complex stuff than mediawiki's
18:32:46  (this is not saying that mediawiki's is good)
18:33:26  Yeah, but the idea would be to move complex stuff into the domain
18:33:44  how much complex stuff is there?
18:34:08  The relationships between things, especially
18:34:19  also mediawiki sucks at video embedding
18:34:37  which is part of the reason no one likes it for speedrunning: you need somewhere else to keep videos
18:38:44  coppro: if you really want complex stuff, you can extend mediawiki. except that you need a little php so it's yucky and nobody does that.
18:38:55  b_jonas: right
18:39:16  so a domain-specific site that actually has data models for things is better than a wiki
18:39:56  it comes with the standard domain-specific tradeoffs: it becomes easier to manipulate data, especially by scripts. You lose genericity and doing things not contemplated in advance is more difficult/impossible
18:40:02  MediaWiki also lacks a good commenting system
18:40:29  people say that, but I actually really like the : :: method of commenting
18:40:31  so many people mess it up though
18:40:41  so maybe the problem is that its commenting system is unintuitive
18:41:40  you can't sort comments, you need to remember to add signatures...
18:42:42  what do you mean by sorting comments?
18:42:49  switching between threaded and threadless discussion?
18:42:51  by date, for instance
18:42:59  or sorting threads by most recent post
18:43:08  the way to see the most recent comment is look at the hisotry
18:43:10  *history
18:45:52  hmm
18:46:01  I like MIME types in concept but they leave something to be desired
18:48:35  there really isn't a reasonable way to express the distinction between container and content, except quadratically
18:48:50  or through other means, like Content-Encoding header in HTTP
18:48:56  quadratically?
18:49:11  Phantom_Hoover: yes, like application/foo+json, application/foo+xml
18:49:22  Phantom_Hoover: one mime type for each container/content pair
18:49:23  you need a different datatype for every format of the same data
18:49:33  worse if you try to use wrappers like gzip
18:49:38  do you add application/foo+json+gzip?
18:49:55  since the spec requires them to be registered separately, it becomes unwieldy
18:52:50  the notion of designing a "pure" hypertext API is quite interesting
19:02:47  coppro: IMO, if people just made html websites reasonable so they contain actual content rather than fluff, and put a few class and id attributes in the right places, then we generally wouldn't need a separate fancy xml-based api for websites, because the normal html api would work fine.
19:02:55  That would also make the ordinary html interface better.
19:03:07  b_jonas: I disagree
19:03:08  Also, people stop truncating lists of page numbers. That just doesn't make SENSE!
19:03:27  coppro: of course, this isn't always true, sometimes you would still need multiple methods
19:03:34  but I think for most of the cases it would work
19:03:43  what I am toying with is using html as one content-type on the same routes
19:03:55  so the "API" is not really a separate thing, just a way of rendering the same information
19:04:27  seriously, what's with all those pages truncating lists of page number lists?
19:04:30  HTML is, despite its name, not ideal for HTTP though
19:04:41  for instance it only supports GET and POST unless you add Javascript
19:04:46  are you getting paid for every extra click you get?
19:04:49  so you end up with things like Ember
19:04:54  lol no
19:05:13  it appears even on pages with no ads
19:05:30  or maybe it doesn't
19:05:33  it's hard to tell
19:05:36  I usually don't see the ads
19:05:42  I have a strong enough mental filter
19:06:13 -!- Welo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:06:26  oh damn
19:06:43  I started to pump this chair ball with air but I don't have the valce cap handy
19:06:48  quick, I have to find it
19:06:56  it's leaking slowly even while the pump's attached
19:07:34  found it
19:10:02 -!- vanila has joined.
19:11:54  agdq
19:12:08  + printf is turing complete
19:13:58 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:17:45  b_jonas: the fact that HTML's idiosyncracies have made it incompatible with good web design is a shame
19:20:20  And if the series is a commercial success, then they make two more bad movies or two more bad seasons of it, and since you're watching it in order, the bad parts are all that you remember, not the first seasons or movies that made it a success.
19:22:26  b_jonas: context?
19:22:36  ais523: you haven't done any web design, have you?
19:22:41  site, not interface
19:23:02  coppro: only a small amount, I wouldn't call myself good at it
19:23:27  those job interview questions you linked me, I'd have had to look up details of CSS to answer (the algo side is easy, the webdev side less so for me)
19:23:37  coppro: not much really, it's just how a lot of popular book series, movie series, and tv series work.
19:23:51  only people don't really agree where exactly the Dune books start to be bad
19:24:01  for some series there's a more obvious cutoff
19:25:14  if the series is succesful, it can't avoid that death, it can only postpone it
19:25:51 -!- mauris has joined.
19:26:44  why nobody cares about brainfuck in printf????
19:26:49  M:tG is in an even worse situation by the way. Unlike with film series, even if they could predict which is the last good block, they can't just choose to not make blocks after that one, because if there's no next block, that reduces the value of the current blocka  lot.
19:27:24  ais523: I'm talking more about things like URI and API design
19:29:50  coppro: I like the "the simplest thing that could possibly work" approach to those
19:30:21  (unless it's eso)
19:30:47  I don't have much to justify this approach with, though
19:30:50  mostly just personal preference
19:30:52  heh
19:31:01  e.g. on the NH4 blog, I choose the URIs manually
19:31:11  yeah, but it's a static site
19:31:22  doesn't need anything fancy
19:31:59  I've actually never written a dynamic website
19:32:06  this is due to growing up with browsers, but no Internet and no servers
19:32:23  my notion of "dynamic" was DHTML :-)
19:34:19  that said there are huge advantages to using a static page generator over CGI; sometimes this isn't possible, but whenever it's possible, IMO it's either clearly ridiculous or the best option
19:35:39  ais523: when I made the mirror at http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/comic/millie/ I was wondering for a while if I should make the html pages of the individual strips staticly generated pages or a single dynamic CGI.
19:36:26  assuming every page is generated at least once and that the ratio of disk space cost to CPU time cost is favourable (it usually is), you typically want the static generation
19:36:30  I haven't done much website stuff yet, but should eventually try to do a little bit more. Not as a carreer, but only to make a web interface for some things I make.
19:36:40  the only exception I can think of involves if disk bandwidth becomes a bottleneck
19:36:50 -!- agawa has joined.
19:36:54  (which it does for large sites, but they're typically using memcached anyway, or even cloudflare)
19:38:14  hello
19:38:22  do you have any stuff in this years AGDQ
19:38:37  hello anyone has infos about new eso-lang matl ?
19:39:15  https://esolangs.org/wiki/MATL
19:40:38  there is no online compiler for this ?
19:40:46  vanila: the TASbot team has something planned, yes; I was involved a few weeks ago helping with some of the planning, but only had a very small part in it
19:40:47  is that really new?
19:40:58  exciting ais523 !
19:41:06  vanila: it's hard to pay attention between all the other 32c3 stuff :P
19:41:16  yeah 32cs was loads of fun
19:41:24  ais523: only a small part? ow. I was kind of hoping you'd finished the vanilla nethack DOS tas or something.
19:41:27  there's heaps of talks left i want to see
19:41:45  though that would be almost entirely unsuitable for a GDQ tas block
19:41:46  int-e, was there any eso-relevant stuff?
19:41:56  the only eso thing i saw was the printf thing
19:42:01  printf?
19:42:06  there was some zelda thing
19:42:11  but probably not easo
19:42:18  vanila: well the printf-brainfuck is from https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7163-new_memory_corruption_attacks_why_can_t_we_have_nice_things apparently
19:42:19  b_jonas, brainfuck encoded in printf format string
19:42:30  quintopia: err, 3SP doesn't print every command, it only prints on each main loop iteration
19:42:44  so your PPCG submission doesn't work
19:42:56  (printing anything meaningful in 3SP is very difficult, which is why I was surprised you'd done it)
19:43:07  did you try running the program through an interp?
19:44:44  actually that might be an interp bug
19:46:50  https://github.com/lmendo/MATL
19:47:10  http://tryitonline.net/
19:50:00  ais523: eh, that's not even what I'm talking about :)
19:51:00  ais523: I must have misunderstood your spec when I wrote my python implementation.
19:51:28  quintopia: try the C interp for a comparison
19:51:44  Today in brainfuck news: Hello, World! is now down to 87 bytes
19:51:47  "then whenever the second cell is odd at the end of one cycle of execution of the program"
19:51:51  quintopia: is that a new record?
19:51:55  yes
19:52:00  lol
19:52:02  that's actually pretty major news
19:52:04  quintopia, how was this found?
19:52:06  what's the exact spelling?
19:52:13  (it matters for hello world golf)
19:52:16  exactly how i spelled it
19:52:30  Hello, world! is down to 82 bytes
19:52:38  ais523: the principles underlying HTTP are quite interesting
19:52:46  I read Roy Fielding's thesis over the break and it's given me a lot to think about
19:52:57  quintopia: put it up on the esowiki
19:53:09  quintopia, did you use a computer search
19:53:18  quintopia: right, I was thinking that "Hello, world!" would be shorter than "Hello, World!"
19:53:23  also there is a new 394 byte quine (requiring wrapping)
19:53:49  nice
19:53:56  please info
19:54:11  quintopia: is that the record for positive-length quines?
19:54:38  positive-length got me thinking, source code of negative length
19:55:11  quintopia: no, but it is probably a record among quines using only printable characters
19:55:22  s/quintopia/ais523/
19:55:56  (TIL that Irssi will auto-complete my own nick)
19:55:59  haha, I hadn't considered that non-,.<>+-[] characters might make quinewriting easier
19:56:15  nice
19:56:17  ais523: Konversation will also tab-complete my nick
19:56:23  which is useful when ctcp-ing myself
19:56:33  ais523: DB Cristofani's is 392 bytes, but the last character is SUB
19:56:34  quintopia, please reply
19:56:54  vanila: are you luis mendo
19:56:57  no
19:57:17  those links were for mauris 
19:57:28  i would like to know where this new hello world is from
19:57:30  how was it make
19:58:25  is this information not allowed to be relased yet?
19:58:38  hi? i don't follow (i haven't been reading)
19:59:13  [wiki] [[Brainfuck]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46068&oldid=44542 * Quintopia * (+176) /* Examples */
19:59:34  http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/55422/hello-world/68494#68494
20:00:13  ah yes, primo/mitchs are amazing at golf :)
20:00:16  ooh, that is a clever way to do it
20:00:27  print hello, while leaving world on the tape
20:00:33  and use a loop to print the world
20:01:31  indeed. plus a brute force search for the optimal starting tape values
20:02:34  < ais523> and use a loop to print the world   <-- ALEX'S WORLD DOMINATION SCHEME REVEALED
20:02:56  this is amazing :D
20:03:01  thank you so much
20:03:08  (i'm just sad you didn't add peals of maniacal laughter afterward)
20:04:02  wasn't my idea, nor my program, I'm just explaining it to the channel
20:04:09  also maniacal laughter isn't really my style
20:05:25  i'm so confused, why did vanila ping me
20:06:02  agawa
20:06:16  yea ?
20:06:45  links for you
20:06:48  vanila: pinging random people for no reason normally gets you in trouble
20:06:50  http://tryitonline.net/
20:06:55  https://github.com/lmendo/MATL
20:06:56  get off my case
20:07:05  matl isnt listed among online compilers thu
20:07:23  btw, is tryitonline owned by a code golfer? there seem to be a lot of esolangs in there for no obvious reason
20:07:35  it's Dennis's site, I believe
20:07:47  it's ONLY esolangs
20:07:53  haha
20:08:04  you seem to be right
20:08:06  the name was too generic
20:08:12  ok, so you're a troll.
20:08:13  its so naivly designed
20:08:38  you're an idiot
20:08:55  ais523: so, clearly my variant of 3SP needs a different name to distinguish it from the original. Suggestions?
20:09:20  something along the lines of "three star programmer with super-fast IO", but more marketingspeaky
20:09:24  I'm not very good at marketingspeak though
20:09:45  ++?
20:09:56  how about "noisy 3sp"
20:10:07  hmm, I like it
20:10:25  you can add it as a section to the article if you like, probably beats making a new article for such a small variation
20:11:31  the reasons 3SP only checks once each cycle are: a) efficiency; b_jonas doesn't like it when I make esolangs that run impractically slow; b) otherwise you have to modulate the output-on variable in bursts to avoid being spammed with increasing ASCII
20:11:50  What's 3SP?
20:11:57  haavard: check the wiki
20:11:57  haavard: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Three_Star_Programmer
20:12:01  he should implement eodermdrome!
20:12:04  quintopia abbreviates it to "3SP"
20:12:17  b_jonas: googling "esolangs" and "3SP" gave a single result, a log from here
20:12:22  thanks, ais523 
20:12:26  I'd actually added a redirect from 3SP to the wiki already
20:12:48  haavard: we added a search hint to the wiki's search engine very recently so that entering 3SP into the search box will take you to the right place
20:12:56  don't know if external search engines even index those though
20:13:13  Doesn't look like they do, unfortunately
20:13:20  myname: eodermdrome probably wins the stakes for "ais523 languages that people have seriously thought about implementing but never succeeded"
20:13:32  what?
20:13:35  there's a redirect
20:13:41  they can index that
20:13:46  why'd you need a hint?
20:13:52  b_jonas: a redirect is a search hint, pretty much
20:13:53  ais523: that's intruiging
20:13:59  hmm
20:14:04  that's how they're mostly used at Wikipedia, for instance
20:14:04  [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46069&oldid=46040 * Quintopia * (+354) Distinguish noisy variant.
20:14:28  agawa, anyway i hope that link is useful i am SO SORRY for accidentally getting the wrong name earlier
20:14:49  wrong name ?
20:14:59  yeah some idiot called me a troll for it
20:15:17  if u are abov 1m 60 u arent a troll
20:15:20  vanila: explaining earlier would probably have defused the situation somewhat
20:15:44  agawa: that is a pretty unusual definition of "troll", although I can't say I 100% disagree with it :-)
20:16:06  um
20:16:10  there are high trolls
20:16:18  or at least were
20:16:27  we haven't seen them much since the fall of the Dark Lord, luckily
20:16:46  some say they all turned to stone in the Sun, but I think they're still hiding out somewhere, waiting for a new evil master to serve
20:17:24  ais523: I like the idea of modulating it in bursts. It's not hard to toggle on and then immediately off.
20:18:03  but then "not hard" might be against the spirit of your original design
20:18:27  the original idea was purely "is this TC by itself?"
20:18:31  wasn't intended specifically for difficulty
20:18:33  just for tarpitness
20:19:55  In fact, I'm thinking of redesigning Platts so that output happens as soon as it has been toggled. And maybe change the input method too. It would be nice to be able to compile ResPlicate to Platts. Or Noisy 3SP to Platts.
20:20:07 -!- jaboja has joined.
20:22:33  ooh, I hadn't seen Platts
20:22:43  concrete syntax for tag systems, along the lines of BCT or PMMN?
20:23:50 -!- Alcest has joined.
20:52:12  :(
20:52:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:52:59  b_jonas: ?
20:56:32 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:59:22 -!- mauris has joined.
21:09:14 -!- ^v has joined.
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21:34:52  idea I just had: a language in which stdin is appended to the program before it starts running, thus the null program is a self-interpreter
21:35:51  its funny that you can write an interpreter without even saying anything about the language
21:36:02  yes
21:36:32 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:36:39  now we can start to work out what other properties the language needs to have
21:37:08  to be interesting, it shouldn't be able to read its own source, otherwise the special feature pretty much collapses
21:37:14  this in turn implies you have to be able to redefine commands
21:38:19  if we assume the program stops running at EOF, this means that your program has to handle the possibility that it might have no more input, and thus just exit
21:38:48  this means it shouldn't output in "realtime", presumably this means that we output what's left on some internal storage (maybe a stack) when the program stops running
21:39:03  i like thihs
21:39:14  huh, that'd actually lead to a really interesting outcome if we output the /entirety/ of internal storage
21:39:44  it means that you need to be able to deduce the output from input x++y, from y and the output from input x
21:40:11  that doesn't break TCness, but it does mean you can't write a BF interpreter
21:40:46  because, e.g., you couldn't tell if a program had leading + signs on
21:41:00  without programs like +++ producing output
21:44:30 -!- jaboja has joined.
21:44:35  I guess you could add a side-channel for encoding internal state, like printing output mod 256 (so that larger values could be used to track stuff inside the internals), but that'd just lead to reasonably uninspired minsky-ing on the first or last character of output
21:49:59 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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22:02:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:07:37 <\oren\> minskying? I minski, she minskies, I have minskied. 
22:11:22  your minsky may vary :-D
22:11:41  but by "minskying" I meant "encoding the entire state of the program into a single integer"
22:14:27 <\oren\> `? minski
22:14:44  minski? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:15:04  what a lag
22:15:43   \o/
22:15:52  myzinski
22:19:34 <\oren\> `le/rn minski/to minski on : /mɪnskiː/ To act as a minski machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer.
22:19:48  Learned «minski»
22:20:20  why the rn?
22:22:34 <\oren\> why rnot?
22:31:27  what does it do?
22:33:22  it le/rns things
22:33:56  `cat bin/le\/rn
22:33:57  cat: bin/le\/rn: No such file or directory
22:34:02  blergh
22:34:19  actually wait what
22:34:21  how does that even work
22:34:30  `` which le/rn
22:34:31  le/rn
22:34:41  is it an alias or something?
22:34:46  or wait...
22:34:52  `` ls le
22:34:53  rn \ rn_append
22:34:57  cute
22:36:20  FireFly: have you seen Acme::Don't in Perl?
22:36:42  (the joke, apart from the uselessness of a don't operator (it's the opposite of do), is how they got an apostrophe into the name of a keyword)
22:38:25  I have not, but alas I don't actually know Perl :<
22:38:29  What is the trick?
22:40:29 -!- agawa has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:41:06 -!- agawa has joined.
22:44:46  FireFly: Acme::Don::t
22:47:48  Ah
22:54:06 -!- dcentral has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:57:57  \oren\: the present participle of "minski" would have to be "minskiing".
23:00:25  I think the only orthographical changes that are allowed in English present participles are chopping off a final silent "e", and doubling the final consonant.
23:05:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:11:29  @tell hppavilion[1]   I'm a big fan of 50 Cent. Or, as he's called in Zimbabwe, Four hundred million dollars. <-- you know a joke is old when it refers to a no longer existing currency hth
23:11:29  Consider it noted.
23:15:51  @uptime
23:15:51  uptime: 21d 4h 59m 21s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
23:24:28  Proceed with this action? [y/N]: y
23:24:31  Please type 'Y[es]' or 'N[o]' to make selection
23:24:33  ^ freebsd
23:25:08  `` find | grep '[.]e$'
23:25:21  No output.
23:25:37  itym find . -name '*.e'
23:25:45  OKAY
23:26:19  my brain hasn't reserved space for find's options.
23:26:33  swap out some math
23:26:39  NEVAR
23:30:07  `` find -samefile canary
23:30:29  ​./canary
23:30:43  `cat canary
23:30:44  ​*tsjørp*
23:30:54  `culprits canary
23:31:00  oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 shachaf ais523 oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover elliott oerjan shachaf elliott ais523 e
23:31:37  that's the norwegian way to spell *chirp* phonetically hth
23:32:45  `` culprits canary | sed -e s/oerjan/ø/g -e s/elliott/é/g
23:32:49  oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 shachaf ais523 oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover elliott oerjan shachaf elliott ais523 e
23:33:50  `` culprits canary | od -An -c
23:33:54  ​   o   e   r   j   a 017   n       o   e   r   j   a 017   n     \    o   e   r   j   a 017   n       a   i   s   5   2 017   3     \    s   h   a   c   h   a 017   f       a   i   s   5   2 017   3 \        o   e   r   j   a 017   n       o   e   r   j   a 017   n \        a   i   s   5   2 017   3       o   e   r   j   a 017   n \        o   e
23:34:02  -_-
23:34:06  `` culprits canary | od -An -tx1c
23:34:09  ​  6f  65  72  6a  61  0f  6e  20  6f  65  72  6a  61  0f  6e  20 \    o   e   r   j   a 017   n       o   e   r   j   a 017   n     \   6f  65  72  6a  61  0f  6e  20  61  69  73  35  32  0f  33  20 \    o   e   r   j   a 017   n       a   i   s   5   2 017   3     \   73  68  61  63  68  61  0f  66  20  61  69  73  35  32  0f  33 \    s   h   a
23:34:13  oh come on
23:34:14  `paste canary
23:34:16  http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/canary
23:34:20  `` culprits canary | xxd
23:34:22  0000000: 6f65 726a 610f 6e20 6f65 726a 610f 6e20  oerja.n oerja.n  \ 0000010: 6f65 726a 610f 6e20 6169 7335 320f 3320  oerja.n ais52.3  \ 0000020: 7368 6163 6861 0f66 2061 6973 3532 0f33  shacha.f ais52.3 \ 0000030: 206f 6572 6a61 0f6e 206f 6572 6a61 0f6e   oerja.n oerja.n \ 0000040: 2061 6973 3532 0f33 206f 6572 6a61 0f6e   ais52.3 oerja.n \ 00000
23:34:23  `culprits-c canary
23:34:28  ​ 14 oerjan 11 elliott 10 ais523 3 shachaf 1 Phantom_Hoover 1 nitia 1 int-e 1 FreeFull 1 c00kiemon5ter
23:34:38  what the fuck is canary
23:34:47  see? there's an extra character in oerjan
23:35:02  right, makes sense
23:35:20  0f
23:35:25  why is there 0f in there?
23:36:15  `` culprits canary | sed -e s/oerja.n/ø/g -e s/elliot.t/é/g
23:36:18  ​ø ø ø ais523 shachaf ais523 ø ø ais523 ø ø ø ø ø ø ø ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e ø é é é é é é é ais523 ais523 é FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover é ø shachaf é ais523 é ais523 nitia
23:36:30  izabera: because of hilighting http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/f267da928345/bin/culprits
23:38:30  `? nitia
23:38:32  nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
23:40:14 * oerjan wonders if int-e needs that explained
23:40:33  `culprits wisdom/nitia
23:40:35  shachaf shachaf
23:40:43  oerjan: no, not really
23:40:48  good, good
23:41:10  `? ina
23:41:11  ina? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:41:17 -!- Taneb has changed nick to nitia.
23:41:25  I am not sure why I have this registered
23:41:53  pretty sure it
23:42:00 -!- nitia has changed nick to Taneb.
23:42:05  's related to that wisdom
23:42:58  I'll save that in case my gender becomes painfully fluid
23:43:52  (ina would be the sister of initia, but she's not been born yet)
23:43:58  ej
23:44:11  nitia, I mean
23:45:16  oerjan: the BBC thing had me confused for a while but google helps
23:45:55  `? bbc
23:45:58  The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets and tiny elfs.
23:46:35  ah, déjà vu
23:46:50  `? wisdom
23:46:51  wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
23:47:09  int-e: they have a middle sister named estin hth
23:47:29 * oerjan cannot remember which file
23:47:35  wisdom repeats itself
23:53:12   @metar enzv <-- NOOOOO it cannot be....
23:53:39 * oerjan feels his uniqueness fading
23:53:45  `culprits wisdom/monqy
23:53:48  Bike FreeFull oerjan FreeFull elliott oerjan shachaf shachaf elliott nitia
23:54:42  oerjan: don't worry, I'm going to ENVA in a week ;)
23:54:47  @metar EGNM
23:54:47  `culprits useless_file.txt
23:54:47  EGNM 032350Z 13005KT 2000 BR SCT003 05/05 Q0980
23:54:48  fizzie estin
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23:55:03  oerjan: that's the one
23:55:14  haavard: yes but are you actually norwegian
23:55:30  i was assuming swedish from your name, until now
23:56:02  Only 1/8th swedish :)
23:56:42  THAT'S NOT AN ANSWER
23:56:53  haavard: you're less swedish than I am dutch
23:57:03  oerjan: are you sure? perhaps you just didn't ask the right question...
23:57:53 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:57:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:58:15  int-e: i'm pretty sure i asked "are you actually norwegian"
23:58:26 -!- agawa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:58:37  `smlist 431
23:58:39  smlist 431: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
23:58:44  oerjan: I know. It's still some answer :P
23:58:53  SKEPTICAL
23:59:45  oerjan: you're just too picky; it answered a question that you didn't ask.
23:59:53  `? smlist
23:59:54  smlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯

2016-01-04:

00:01:07  I am actually norwegian except for that swedish slice, oerjan
00:01:19  NOOOOO
00:01:40  oerjan: my brother woke up in Norway this morning
00:01:41  Do you also study at NTNU? (spying on your host)
00:02:10  haavard: not any more, just kept the club membership
00:02:15  (he went to sleep there last night, too)
00:02:24  Although a lot further south than you guys, I believe
00:03:25  oerjan: I see
00:03:50  Taneb: there's only around 3-4 hours of driving between here and the south end of Norway tbh
00:03:53 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:03:55  Hellu
00:04:05  @messages-
00:04:05  oerjan said 52m 35s ago:   I'm a big fan of 50 Cent. Or, as he's called in Zimbabwe, Four hundred million dollars. <-- you know a joke is old when it refers to a no longer existing currency hth
00:04:06  Taneb: this means i will now have to avoid haavard like you have avoided elliott.
00:04:12  haavard: my brother's been staying with friends in Stavanger
00:04:43  There you go, that's my home town ;)
00:04:52  I didn't know being norwegian was some special perk over here, oerjan 
00:05:07  Hello, haavard!
00:05:17  Hi
00:05:26  I would think you were new because I don't recognize you, but oerjan appears to have seen you around before
00:05:29  Hm..
00:05:33  haavard: oh wow
00:05:35  haavallo?
00:05:41  I am pretty new, hppavilion[1] ;)
00:05:44  At least to the channel
00:05:48  Welcome then!
00:05:53  Thanks :)
00:06:06  haavard: So what projects are you currently working on?
00:06:12  (I'm automating Nomic)
00:06:26  I'm writing a JIT compiler for ><>
00:07:42  Whoa
00:07:46  `` echo wisdom/super*
00:07:48  wisdom/superexponential growth wisdom/supermarionation wisdom/supermarioperator
00:07:53  I have never been able to write a compiler so far
00:08:27  oh my god what are these people doing
00:08:30  It's a lot easier than I initially thought
00:08:34  `le/rn superduperexponential growth/is exponential growth on top of exponential growth
00:08:38  Learned «superduperexponential growth»
00:08:43  `? superduper
00:08:44  superduper? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:08:45  I'm using DynASM, which makes it a lot nicer
00:08:45  they've drawn a 3-punctured sphere with big circles for the punctures
00:08:48  `? superduperexponentialgrowth
00:08:49  superduperexponentialgrowth? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:08:50  jfc
00:09:00 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
00:09:03  `? superduperexponential growth
00:09:04  is exponential growth on top of exponential growth
00:09:19  `le/rn superduperexponential growth/superduperexponential growth is exponential growth on top of exponential growth
00:09:22  Learned «superduperexponential growth»
00:09:25  oerjan: I deserved that
00:09:54  apparently smlist is for http://www.supermegacomics.com/
00:10:44  a learning experience
00:11:09  haavard: Have you ever heard of Nomic?
00:11:19  I just googled it
00:11:26  Ah xD
00:11:37  Is it the game where the rules change, like wikipedia states?
00:11:43  I'm making a LISP-based Nomic rule handler callsed λ-Nomic
00:11:46  haavard: Yes
00:11:49  `? slist
00:11:50  Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
00:12:11  `le/rn supercalifragilisticexponential growth/Supercalifragilisticexponential growth leaves Graham's number in the dust.
00:12:14  Learned «supercalifragilisticexponential growth»
00:12:31  My goal is to make a pretty website frontend and publish it on the internet
00:12:40  And to generally make Nomic accessible to more people
00:12:46  By handling it online
00:12:56  Sort of the chess.com of nomics
00:13:00  Sounds pretty cool
00:13:14  It will be, I hope :)
00:13:22  `le/rn smlist/Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
00:13:25  Learned «smlist»
00:13:54  Peter Naur has died :(
00:13:59  Why is learn spelled le/rn?
00:14:04  Taneb: I have no clue who that is
00:14:10  haavard: We also have `learn
00:14:17  hppavilion[1]: he's the N in BNF
00:14:22  Oh :(
00:14:26  87, oh well.
00:14:41  haavard: But le/rn separates the knowledge from the... thing by / instead of space
00:14:57   `learn infers the head word from the text
00:15:01  haavard: there's `learn  that takes the first nontrivial word as the keyword 
00:15:02  (the "thing" being the thing that you search for with `?)
00:15:06   `le/rn lets you manually specify the head word
00:15:22  Though it can't contain /
00:15:36  Maybe we should update le/rn to allow backslash-escaped /s
00:15:51  `? le/rn
00:15:53  le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
00:15:54  Because UNIVERSALITY
00:15:56  I see..
00:16:21  here did anything come of that band gap uncomputability result or not
00:16:33  haavard: If you use "`learn the walrus is john lennon" it will learn "walrus"
00:16:35  hppavilion[1]: shachaf's suggestion is to make le//rn allow single slashes in the key
00:16:51  oerjan: but what if you want a double backslash?
00:16:55  double slashes are impossible in a linux file system anyway
00:16:57  i thought it was p. interesting in that it seemed to possibly entail solving the halting problem in finite time, but i didn't know the physics well enough to tell
00:17:05  but le//rn is indistinguishable from le/rn to unix?
00:17:11  int-e: But it can look at argv[0]
00:18:01  `? ../cat
00:18:02  Meow~~  >^.^<
00:18:03   Peter Naur has died :(
00:18:20  how will we distinguish BNF from brainfuck now??
00:18:26  NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
00:18:28  `? bnf
00:18:31  bnf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:18:37  Phantom_Hoover: Convergent evolution will make it unnecessary
00:18:47  Phantom_Hoover: Backus died in 2007
00:18:52  So we just have F now
00:18:52  Within a few thousand years
00:19:19  Taneb: But no one uses "form" in programming anymore!
00:19:31  So really, we either have  or E
00:19:32  hppavilion[1]: the web is full of forms
00:19:32  hppavilion[1]: not even with Visual Basic?
00:19:38  at least we have EF if we needed it extended
00:19:39  `` sed -i 's/.\(.*\)/S\1./' wisdom/superd*
00:19:42  No output.
00:19:56  Phantom_Hoover: Ah, but everything in programming will be extensible pretty soon
00:20:09  So it'll just be  soon enough
00:20:14  extensible bugs
00:20:26  int-e: Yes!
00:20:40  We should make EBNF: Esoteric Backus-Naur Form
00:20:58  (Acronym collision intentional)
00:21:02  hppavilion[1]: actually it will learn "walru" hth
00:21:14  oerjan: Really? Woooooooooooow
00:21:19  BNF is designed for clarity
00:21:23  how will you make EBNF?
00:21:42  A form that sheds the usual ideas of "logical parsing" and "ease-of-use" to make something fun and exciting!
00:21:49 -!- jaboja has joined.
00:22:02  wait it lready exists, perl regex
00:22:10  Oh. Right.
00:22:46  Another idea I'm currently working on is Classical Programming
00:22:48  Phantom_Hoover: that band gap result says little about "real" physics, it's an idealized system in the infinite growth limit.
00:22:49  Programming based on classes
00:22:57  Not based on OO, because there aren't many objects
00:23:02  Just the classes
00:23:22  And classes aren't just a fancy way to hold methods and data. They're the bulk of the language
00:23:37  oerjan, i expected as much, but it's still fairly interesting if you could get the result in bounded time
00:23:49  Problem is, I don't know what to put in classes to make them more... well... usable for my idea
00:24:30  Oooh! I know how to accomplish it!
00:24:39  Just start making shit up and work back from there!
00:27:58  `` ls wisdom/mins*
00:28:00  wisdom/minski
00:28:34  `? minski
00:28:35  to minski on : /mɪnskiː/ To act as a minski machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer.
00:29:03  `` mv wisdom/minsk{i,y}; sed -i 's/minski/Minsky/g' wisdom/mins*
00:29:06  No output.
00:29:11  `? minsky
00:29:12  to Minsky on : /mɪnskiː/ To act as a Minsky machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer.
00:29:20 -!- tadaaa has joined.
00:29:55  . o O ( Minsky is the capital of minsky. )
00:30:19  int-e: don't you mean belorussiay hth
00:30:22  (Minsk is the capital of Belarus)
00:30:36  oerjan: no, I was punning
00:30:58  oerjan: I'm not sure that "to Minsky" should have a capital M.
00:31:42  Phantom_Hoover: someone was mentioning in the discussion on scott aaronson's blog that one "practical" version of this is that you can have systems that look gapless up to an arbitrary size, then suddenly switch to gapped, or was it the other way around.
00:32:30  ah
00:32:31  int-e: i think we should leave that decision to the native speakers.
00:32:35  quite unremarkable then
00:32:52  oerjan: but I do speak natively ;)
00:33:13  Phantom_Hoover: well, you can presumably embed an arbitrary finite computation into that switch
00:34:31  int-e: Wenn du es so sagst.
00:35:12  or are you saying you're actually (>=)bilingual
00:35:36  no, I'm not saying that
00:35:44  Gut, gut
00:36:36  . o O ( What is O KAY in German )
00:36:52  Okay? In Ordnung...
00:37:20  I NORD NUNG
00:37:52  Nice to meet you, Mr. Nung.
00:39:58  char ming
00:44:52 -!- vanila has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:46:40 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:48:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:53:04 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said).
00:54:18  this channel is funny. i will be here more ofthen
00:55:40  `welcome tadaaa
00:55:42  tadaaa: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:01:31  hachaf
01:01:38  HireFly
01:03:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
01:04:00 -!- tadaaa has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Would you like to know more?).
01:04:03 -!- heroux has joined.
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01:13:01 -!- \oren\ has joined.
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01:26:45  `run culprits canary | loudly
01:27:35  rather silent if you ask me
01:27:47  I agree.
01:27:51 <\oren\> why is everyone watching downtown abbey
01:27:57  Maybe HackEgo has been spending the last minute or two inhaling.
01:28:06  No output.
01:28:26 <\oren\> i don't see what's so great about an abbot in the inner city
01:29:09  `loudly BEST COMMAND EVER Y/N?
01:29:11  ​BEST COMMAND EVER Y/N?
01:29:16 -!- variable has joined.
01:29:25  `run welcome | loudly
01:29:29  ​Welcome to the international hub for esoteric pro,
01:29:40  no hth
01:29:49  `? loudly
01:29:51  ​It's pretty annoying.
01:30:01  indeed
01:30:26  `loudly people should stop abusing me
01:30:27 <\oren\> `rainbow best camand evar
01:30:27  ​people should stop abusing me
01:30:30  `run echo "Did you mean: $(loudly loudly)" > wisdom/loudly
01:30:54 <\oren\> wat
01:31:09  `? loudly
01:31:30  No output.
01:31:32  No output.
01:31:32  Everyone, HackEgo is tired now and needs to rest.
01:31:32  `loudly are you dead
01:31:33  Did you mean: loudly
01:31:34  ​are you dead
01:31:44 -!- Froox has joined.
01:31:50  `? misspellings of croissant
01:31:52  misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:31:56  `? misspellings of crosant
01:31:58  `loudly seriously, stop abusing me or I'll call the police for sexual harrasment
01:31:58  misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:31:59  ​seriously, stop abusing me or I'll call the polic,
01:32:36 -!- Froo has joined.
01:34:30  `loudly Night, everyone.
01:34:31  ​Night, everyone.
01:34:47 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:35:08  `silently STOP SHOUTING
01:35:09  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: silently: not found
01:35:15  wat
01:35:17  oh
01:35:23  `quietly STOP SHOUTING
01:35:25  ​ 
01:36:30 -!- Froox has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
01:42:49 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu.
01:43:40  very quiet
01:43:43  `cat bin/quietly
01:43:44  echo " "
01:44:08  `` mv bin/{quietly,silently} # hth
01:44:11  No output.
02:00:54  `silently foo
02:00:57  ​ 
02:15:58  > ord '\SUB'
02:16:00   26
02:17:55 -!- andrew has joined.
02:22:41 -!- ^^v has joined.
02:23:19 -!- jaboja has joined.
02:24:48   if u are abov 1m 60 u arent a troll <-- wat
02:25:44 * oerjan grew up in a culture where trolls are assumed huge, with fairy tales telling how some mountains used to be them
02:26:49 -!- benderpc_ has joined.
02:26:50  well, a creature which is 1 million and 60 cm tall is probably not a troll
02:27:39  hm that's 10000.6 m
02:27:54  a bit large for a mountain.
02:28:05 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
02:29:11  @metar KOAK
02:29:12  KOAK 040153Z 09008KT 10SM BKN065 OVC160 11/02 A2981 RMK AO2 SLP094 T01110022
02:29:20  this is a much more reasonable temperature tdh
02:30:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:30:56  ♫ Det bur ei troll i Senja ♫ så reint utruleg stort ♫ Det fiskar kval på Malangsgrunn ♫ som andre fiskar mort ♫
02:40:20 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
02:40:34  (There lives a troll in Senja / So incredibly large / It fishes for whales at Malangsgrunn / like others fish for pollock)
02:41:08  that's supposedly _small_ pollock, i couldn't find a specific english word.
02:41:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
02:42:16 -!- benderpc_ has changed nick to bender|pc.
02:42:59  http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2016/01/whats-new-in-unicode-90.html
02:43:42  lol on the "Emoji" and "non-Emoji" headings
02:43:54  "Not Emoji"*
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03:13:09  Precircumfix Operation
03:13:15  [5]6
03:13:18  What does it do?
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03:25:21  I don't know.
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03:52:10  home!
03:52:14  @metar CYUL
03:52:15  CYUL 040300Z 36011G16KT 4SM -SN BKN020 OVC045 M10/M15 A2998 RMK SC6SC2 SLP155
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04:01:21  So here's a langauge I've brought up before
04:01:49  A language where an entire program is encoded as an arithmetical expression
04:02:17  e.g. out<<"Hello, world!"
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04:06:01  I have thought of such things before too (although not quite like that)
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04:19:41  #esoteric's guide to Star Wars: Think about it and it will make far less sense than you can possibly imagine
04:23:49  i don't know, i can imagine quite a bit.
04:32:08  Apparently printf is turing-complete
04:33:20  Elronnd: How so?
04:33:38  I forget; I saw something on it on github at somem point
04:33:43  I'll see if I can dig it up
04:34:57  Here we go
04:35:10  "a brainfuck inside printf" https://github.com/HexHive/printbf
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04:37:07  Wait, is that actually working with the formal spec of printf, and not just UB?
04:39:20  Elronnd: Wow! And it turns out Python is TC too!
04:40:26  Hmm. It's UB and fragile I think.
04:41:40  I'm currently making the base ruleset for an automated Nomic game :)
04:42:37  Specifically, the classic game using the LispRule ruleengine
04:42:42  hppavilion[1]: wait, really?  I never new it was possible for a well-known and used language to actually be turing-complete!
04:42:56  Elronnd: xD
04:43:15  http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/fprintf.html defines %n
04:43:28  "The argument shall be a pointer to an integer into which is written the number of bytes written to the output so far by this call to one of the fprintf() functions. No argument is converted."
04:43:47  (λ-nomic, the site/software/game that I'm making for Nomic playing, supports/will support various base games and various rule engines)
04:46:26  OK, the software now has a registration feature
04:46:40  Registering into a game, not into the site
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05:33:15  Phew
05:33:24  I just implemented the voting mechanism
05:33:35  It is pure spaghetti
05:33:42  The italians would be proud
05:35:35  Here it is:
05:35:36  http://pastebin.com/cd1KsVJf
05:35:41  The formatting got a bit messed up
05:37:01  And now that I think about it, it isn't even complete
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05:51:04  Do you like my variant formats for Magic: the Gathering (such as Variant Star and so on)?
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06:20:51  I hope that I have now sufficiently improved the form to make the calculation of the MD5 hash of your account.
06:42:51  "My god
06:43:28  This guy took math and used it to prove the Illuminati (facetiously) xD
06:44:22  zzo38: Where can I read about Variant Star?
06:44:32  Also, md5 is scow
06:44:54  shachaf: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/star.var
06:45:24  I agree there certainly are better ways than MD5, but I have to use MD5 in this case, sorry.
06:47:16  MD5 is totally scow.
06:51:20  https://youtu.be/DfnBW6HvNwM
06:53:37  pikhq: Yes, I know!
06:54:30  But, I have to use MD5 anyways!
06:55:28  HTTP digest authentication requires it
06:56:03  Oh!
06:57:43  Welp, there's only one real problem here: using that prevents using good password storage.
06:57:44  But you can also use "htdigest" program or any other software on your computer to make MD5 calculation, you are not required to use the HTML form that I have made up.
06:58:13  Why are you using HTTP digest authentication?
06:58:53  That is to identify if you have account to post comment on my custom Magic: the Gathering cards.
06:59:47  The file that stores the passwords is private anyways so you cannot access it. The file that stores the cards and comments is a public file though, and account information is not stored there.
06:59:47  HTTPS is probably a better solution, though digest authentication beats basic authentication if you're *not* using HTTPS at least? I guess?
07:00:32  Even if it is HTTPS, the password is still send to my computer; HTTPS only prevent it being catch in between, not at the end!
07:00:52  And even then I should use HTTP authentication, whether basic or digest, to do log in.
07:01:43  Anyways, even "curl" program support digest authentication, so you do not need to do by web browser (although it is the possibility too).
07:07:36  I do like HTTP authentication as at least an option.
07:12:39  zzo38: Instead of "he" your description of Variant Star should say "he or she"
07:15:10  I could fix it, I just shorten it like that; many document to shorten like that commonly
07:15:38  Not the official rules, though.
07:16:03  These are not official rules; it is a variant game.
07:18:14  I do not mean that woman cannot use it; even if somehow someone is neither "he" nor "she" is still usable and is not prohibited either.
07:19:05  English is a Stupid language. Did you know that?
07:19:33  I did know that.
07:20:22  OK
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07:39:49  shachaf: No, zzo38 should say "they"
07:40:09  Magic: The Gathering cards should probably say that.
07:40:10  Or, alternatively, use every possible name joined with ", or"
07:41:53  Avoiding such things like that is why I abbreviate just as "he", which is shorter and sufficiently clear as far as I can tell
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07:43:34  zzo38: You could, of course, use "one", but then you sound like me
07:45:05  Well, I wrote it and see no reason to change it. However if you would want to write things using different convention I do not complain, unless it is a stupid convention (such as listing all possible names explicitly)
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08:33:34  Sgeo: I've defined a number #, based off of @, s.t. |#| = i
08:33:45  What I'm wondering is if |@#| = -i
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08:45:59  If | means absolute value, then, I would thought absolute value is supposed to be idenpotence
08:48:22  it normally is hth
08:49:08  sometimes i wonder whether oerjan will be appropriately offended at scow puns if he's not around for them
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08:50:25  hppavilion[1]: i discussed the existence of @ recently
08:51:07  myname: And?
08:51:19  you'd need to extend the reals by some dimension. quadratic polynoms would have 4 results
08:51:32  we didn't really end in a full definition
08:51:37  that'd be fun
08:52:05  I have invented "meta-complex numbers" in the past
08:52:14  Possibly some other people have also invented same thing
08:52:31  zzo38: Metacomplex as in?
08:52:56  what are meracomplex numbers?
08:54:29  For example you can have a realreal component, a realimaginary component, a imaginaryreal component, a imaginaryimaginaryimaginary component, a imaginaryimaginaryrealimaginary component, etc
08:54:58  They are still commutative and associative.
08:56:08  You can represent by matrix by use of tensor multiplication of [1,0;0,1] and [0,-1;1,0] and then they can be multiplied by real numbers and added together.
08:56:27  Now do you understand it please?
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10:41:09  e**(ix) = cos(x) + sin(x)i
10:41:22  But what about if you substitute j for i? Or k?
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11:52:57  @metar CYUL
11:52:57  CYUL 041100Z 33003KT 15SM SKC M18/M24 A3019 RMK SLP229
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12:44:26  `? snow
12:44:28  `wisdom
12:44:42  snow? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:44:42  did/did: didn't
12:45:44  `learn Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, which turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
12:45:47  Learned 'snow': Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, which turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
12:58:13  @metar lowi
12:58:14  LOWI 041250Z 27008KT 9999 FEW008 SCT030 BKN060 04/02 Q0994 R08/19//95 NOSIG
13:04:11  How do I fix Firefox so that it will use the filename of the page being viewed as the default filename when saving it, rather than using the title as the default filename?
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13:54:49  [wiki] [[Tedius]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46070&oldid=33269 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) /* Cat program */
13:58:51 <\oren\> @metar cyyz
13:58:52  CYYZ 041300Z 36013KT 15SM FEW030 BKN075 M15/M20 A3031 RMK SC2AC3 SLP277
13:58:57 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAA
14:01:39  `olist 1017
14:01:41  olist 1017: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:01:48  oh oops
14:02:31  ooh! 
14:02:33  looking
14:04:36  `learn Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targeryan. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
14:04:39  Learned 'snow': Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targeryan. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
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14:21:54  boo, spoilers
14:22:36  `? spoilers
14:22:37  spoilers? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:24:19  https://xkcd.com/109/
14:27:13  `? winter
14:27:14  winter? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:27:21  `le/rn Winter is coming.
14:27:22  No output.
14:27:25  `? winter
14:27:26  winter? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:27:28  `learn Winter is coming.
14:27:32  Learned 'winter': Winter is coming.
14:27:33  `? winter
14:27:34  Winter is coming.
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15:34:30  My exam this afternoon went well
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16:59:34  aaah stupid 2048 game...
17:07:42  try Threes. it's much less stupid.
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17:13:00  it amuses me that there is a section of the Tedius page that is about making the language less tedious
17:18:34  quintopia: I just have to fight the urge to try and reach 8192 (because it takes a long, long time to get there)
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17:38:14  int-e: that number seems astronomical compared to the numbers you're able to reach in Threes
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18:14:38  hi, I'm trying to do something totally insane and could use some advice
18:15:08  basically, the idea is to make the common case of an esolang interpreter faster via not doing any sort of bounds checks, and instead catching the resulting segfault (via allocating memory a page at a time)
18:15:18  this requires that I know where in the source code the segfault happened
18:15:32  so what I want to do is convert the segfaults into (zero-cost) exceptions that I can catch
18:15:52  however, the obvious method, of putting throw in a signal handler, doesn't work; it acts like the exception was unhandled
18:16:10  what do you mean?
18:16:10  and inspecting the asm at various optimization levels implies that you're not supposed to be able to throw an exception out of a signal handler into the main program
18:16:40  izabera: I mean that if I write "throw foo;" in a signal handler, inside a try block in the main program but not in the signal hander, it gets translated to terminate()
18:16:47  as usual for an unhandled exception
18:17:24  anyway, what I'd like is either a) a way to convert signals to exceptions, or b) another way to accomplish what I'm aiming for (zero-cost segfault handling) that doesn't require throwing an exception in a signal handler
18:17:42  clearly I could do it via writing the asm myself but I don't want to have to resort to that
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18:19:02  can you show your code?
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18:19:27  Maybe People in ##ASM can help, even though it is off-topic there…
18:19:36  izabera: not trivially as it's one of those compilers that works by pieceing code fragments together
18:19:43  Can You use longjmp()?
18:19:43  let me paste you some compiled output
18:19:55  APic: yes but I can't use setjmp()
18:20:10  because you have to call it in advance before you know whether it's jumped to or not
18:20:39  Oh
18:20:46  izabera: http://sprunge.us/jEPB
18:20:59  see segv_handler for the problematic bit
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18:23:27  the context is that I'm trying to make a basic literal (i.e. non-optimizing) PMMN compiler that's as efficient as possible for being non-optimizing
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18:24:48  i don't know what pmmn is but i see
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18:27:23  izabera: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Portable_Minsky_Machine_Notation
18:27:44  I want to know how fast a non-optimizing impl can be to compare my optimizer to it
18:31:42  ais523: There is http://forum.dlang.org/thread/jjn6dj$193c$1@digitalmars.com but of course it is highly non-portable.
18:31:57 * ais523 looks
18:32:07  anything along these lines can be expected to be highly nonportable, really
18:32:12  Yes
18:32:27  ooh, it uses ucontext_t
18:32:30  beautiful
18:32:41  B-)
18:35:46  however it seems to rely on ebp/rbp being reliable
18:40:08  If the Function You return to does not return further itself, i guess You can just skip messing with the Base-Pointer…
18:40:48  right, actually it works a bit more simply if ebp isn't pushed
18:40:59  *nod*
18:41:00  I think what you have to do here is to write the userspace handler in asm
18:41:49 * APic thinks so too, that is why i pointed out ##asm B-)
18:50:49  but I already know asm :-P
18:51:31  Good B-)
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19:45:10  huh, my desk *does* point zimbabwards
19:48:12  ais523: jitfunge used a stack like that.
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19:49:42  ais523: Not the part about throwing exceptions, but the part without bounds checks, with a segfault handler that patched pop-like things to act as if they had just popped the last 0 out of the stack.
19:50:00  right
19:50:08  it's trying to do the segfault handler cleanly that's bothering me
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19:50:23  you can get the address that faulted, but if you return, it'll try to read that address again
19:50:34  which isn't so useful if what was wrong was the address itself
19:51:51  I did it only in the version that had handcrafted code generation, because the "patch things up to look like it worked" operation is hard to figure out in the general case of arbitrary code.
19:52:27  With a finite set of generated forms, it could look at the faulting instruction and act appropriately. Didn't port this over to the LLVM-based thing.
19:56:35  /* .. */ else if (code[0] == 0x8b && (code[1] & 0xc7) == 0x06) /* .. */
19:56:40  oh, you actually examined the code?
19:56:46  As above.
19:56:56  come to think of it, I could just write this whole program in asm
19:57:02  it'd probably be easier
19:57:24  The body of that branch is  targetreg = 11-((code[1]>>3) & 0x07);  and then I do  ctx->uc_mcontext.gregs[targetreg] = 0;  to "return" a zero.
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20:25:46  Last delayed reaction of 2015! WHOO!
20:26:02  :)
20:26:36  hmm, should I just put this esolang online without implementing it and without writing programs in it to test that it works?
20:26:52  I wanted at least a working tested cat
20:27:00  and want the possibility to change the spec in case I've missed something
20:28:21  `unidecode ?
20:28:36  ​[U+FF1F FULLWIDTH QUESTION MARK]
20:29:05  that is quite the codepoint number
20:29:07  three Fs?
20:29:18  for a question mark?
20:30:15  That's what you get for putting the "halfwidth and fullwidth forms" block to ff00..ffef.
20:30:34  what a weird place to put it
20:33:46  `` for d in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7; do unidecode "$(unicode $d$d$d$d)"; done
20:33:50  ​ \ [U+1111 HANGUL CHOSEONG PHIEUPH] \ [U+2222 SPHERICAL ANGLE] \ [U+3333 SQUARE HUIITO] \ [U+4444 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-4444] \ [U+5555 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5555] \ [U+6666 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-6666] \ [U+7777 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-7777]
20:33:55  `` for d in 8 9 a b c d e f; do unidecode "$(unicode $d$d$d$d)"; done
20:34:02  ​[U+8888 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-8888] \ [U+9999 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-9999] \ [U+AAAA TAI VIET LETTER LOW VO] \ [U+BBBB HANGUL SYLLABLE MYUC] \ [U+CCCC HANGUL SYLLABLE CEK] \ U+DDDD  - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ed b7 9d  UTF-16BE: dddd  Decimal: � \  () \ Uppercase: U+DDDD \ Category: Cs (Other, Surrogate) \ 
20:34:30  Hrm. The output for the non-existing U+DDDD was far too long.
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20:54:33  ais523: what esolang?
20:55:00  quintopia: I've discussed two today; the first was PMMN; the second was me running with the "input is appended to the source" idea
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21:11:19  `unidecode ∖
21:11:21  ​[U+2216 SET MINUS]
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22:56:13  @tell hppavilion[1]  But what about if you substitute j for i? Or k? <-- i am guessing you just substitute them in the right side too.  i think the quaternions are a (real) banach algebra, which means e**(ix) works by power series as usual, and then i^2 = -1 is _probably_ all you need for the splitup, and j and k have the same property.  for x real, that is.  if x is some other quaternion that doesn't commute with i, j or k things ...
22:56:13  Consider it noted.
22:56:19  ... might get messed up.
22:56:49  @tell hppavilion[1] ... might get messed up.
22:56:49  Consider it noted.
22:57:17 * oerjan suddenly realizes lambdabot might cut that off more...
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23:02:02  oerjan: hppavilion is, I presume, capable of logreading
23:03:06  but does he know that he's capable
23:03:36  does he know that i know that you know that he is capable
23:04:11  Tanelle, hellørjan, Tanelle, hellørjan.
23:05:32  bohilybilyho
23:05:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:06:48  hppavilion[1]: i wish to inform you that i know that Taneb knows that you are capable of logreading.  just in case lambdabot cuts that off more.
23:07:24  oerjan: Huh? Not exactly sure what you're saying
23:07:31  Ah, there's lambdabot
23:07:40  oerjan: You know that Taneb knows it? Or just that Taneb says he knows it?
23:07:47  Or presumes it.
23:08:09  shachaf: darn you got me there.  also how can be offended by a scow pun if i cannot find it even while logreadin tdnh
23:08:16  *+g
23:08:36  oerjan: Ah, by j and k I meant j from the split-complexes and k=epsilon from the duals
23:08:45  Not j and k from the quaternions or their ilk
23:08:59 * oerjan vaguely guesses shachaf thinks "normally" is punny there, but doesn't quite see how.
23:09:05  the joke is norm
23:09:08  it's not very good
23:10:06  hppavilion[1]: oh.  well i have no idea whether that's too messed up to be a banach algebra, then.
23:10:31  Now I must walk home
23:10:34  what would be a good porthello for funpuns?
23:10:48  basically, you want it to be a ring and reals to be a subring commuting with everything, i think.
23:11:09  hppavellon[1]. is there snow where you are?
23:11:11  shachaf: oh.
23:11:26 * oerjan swats shachaf for scowness -----###
23:11:59  `rot13 hello
23:12:05  uryyb
23:12:33  boily: funpuryyb hth
23:12:44  tdh.
23:13:12  @metar ENVA
23:13:13  ENVA 042220Z 13016KT CAVOK M06/M16 Q1008 RMK WIND 670FT 15024G34KT
23:13:26  bit frosty.
23:13:33  no snow, at the moment.
23:13:58  @metar CYUL
23:13:58  CYUL 042300Z 32005KT 15SM FEW040 FEW240 M15/M21 A3044 RMK SC1CI1 SC TR CI TR SLP315
23:14:31  cold. I bought a 10kg bag of salt for my stairs. much fun bringing it back home by foot.
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23:36:53  boily: whoa whoa whoa, why would you live somewhere that cold?
23:36:58  @metar KOAK
23:36:59  KOAK 042253Z 17008KT 9SM -RA BKN032 OVC050 14/09 A2972 RMK AO2 RAB28 SLP064 P0000 T01390094
23:39:08  shachaf: that's like half of the Frogs chorus of Aristophanes!
23:39:59  whoa whoa whoa
23:40:14  Taneb knows the croaking chorus from The Frogs of Aristophanes?
23:40:21  YEs
23:40:26  In the original Greek
23:40:59 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting).
23:41:14  And in translation!
23:41:38  can you whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore?
23:41:48  Alas, I cannot
23:42:01  But I am very well acquainted with matters mathematical!
23:42:29  do you have any cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse?
23:42:48  It's equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides!
23:42:54  that's not cheerful
23:43:00  it's dismal
23:43:09  It's all about attitude, shachaf
23:43:15  you're not even giving an upper bound
23:43:16  Get to higher griound
23:43:19  just an equality
23:43:28  Taneb: you never answered my question about dominance and submission, anyway
23:43:38  I do not remember the question
23:44:25   Taneb: so BDSM is out but how does Taneb feel about dominance and submission in non-sexual contexts twh
23:44:26 -!- FreeFull has joined.
23:44:29  in particular i was thinking of theatre
23:44:42  I haven't done much theatre in the past couple of years
23:44:54  what do you think of http://slbkbs.org/kj-ideas.txt
23:45:24  That is certainly a list of ideas
23:47:09  thanks
23:47:27  what's better than ideas? pooches.
23:48:01  shachaf: because the beer is good.
23:48:25  how's the poutine
23:48:30  better.
23:48:42  speaking of poutine, I think I'ma gonna get one.
23:48:51  GOOD THINGS, TOTALLY ORDERED:
23:48:53 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CRUSTACEAN CHICKEN).
23:48:54  I don't know anywhere to get poutine
23:48:54 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:48:57  oops
23:49:38 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:50:14 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:50:57  Taneb: you should read that book, it's great
23:52:09  I will bear that in mind
23:52:41  Unfortunately I have exams right now
23:55:24 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:57:32  @tell boily There was snow here, until a few days ago. Which is weird, because Alaska.
23:57:32  Consider it noted.
23:58:08  I haven't seen it snow since 2011

2016-01-05:

00:06:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:09:55 -!- jaboja has joined.
00:14:02  I've seen snow on a couple of random days in late 2015
00:14:13  like, october/novemberish
00:16:16 -!- adu has joined.
00:20:39 * ais523 wonders why Stack Exchange's TOS refers to the user accepting the TOS using the pronoun "it"
00:20:49  most such legal documents I've seen just repeat the noun rather than using pronouns
00:20:57  to avoid such awkward phrasing
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00:32:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:33:07 <\oren\> @metar cyyz
00:33:08  CYYZ 050000Z 01009KT 15SM SKC M13/M22 A3053 RMK SLP355
00:35:49 <\oren\> @metar cytz
00:35:49  CYTZ 050000Z AUTO 32007KT 300V360 9SM CLR M12/M20 A3056 RMK SLP357
00:36:51 <\oren\> a bit warmer by the laek
00:37:10 <\oren\> s/ek/ke
00:39:51 <\oren\> I need something to sort the unicode characters in a file
00:41:19 <\oren\> I soppose I could just put each character on a line by itself, then run sort, then delete the linebreaks
00:54:56 <\oren\> bah. GNU fold doesn't do utf8 righjt
00:58:37 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
00:59:15 <\oren\> HA! since the'yre all kanji, fold -b60 or any other multiple of 3 works
01:06:23 -!- singingboyo has joined.
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01:09:06 -!- singingboyo has joined.
01:20:32 <\oren\> ok. so: cat kanjilist | tr -d '\n' | fold -b3 | sort -u | tr -d '\n' | fold -b60 >sortedkanjilist
01:30:22 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
01:33:06 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
01:33:55  ais523: what did you mean by appending input?
01:34:26  before running the program, the interp reads the entirety of stdin and appends that to the program
01:34:38  in what language?
01:34:40  also there's no introspection/redlection
01:34:44  *reflection
01:35:06  so you have to redefine every character that could appear in the input to handle itslef
01:35:10  and a new esolang I'm working on
01:35:20  it's called Takeover
01:35:27  oh. i get it.
01:35:44  looks like fun.
01:43:29 <\oren\> by character, do you mean unicode characters or bytes?
02:06:46 -!- bender| has joined.
02:09:42  \oren\: it seems that fold cannot handle multibyte characters of UTF-8 or whatsoever anyway
02:09:53  that is, even not locale-dependent
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03:04:32  Is there a place I can find the original "A Programming Language" by Kenneth E Iverson for free online?
03:04:45  Preferably legitimately?
03:04:55  adu: I found a problem with generalized hyperoperations
03:08:32  Ah, found it
03:09:27  hi hppavilion[1] 
03:09:37  hppavilion[1]: what problem?
03:09:38  Hadu
03:10:12  adu: Well, I assume we want negative hyperoperations to be the inverse of the positives, correct? So x-y, x/y, etc. would be negative hyperoperations
03:10:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:10:26  no
03:10:29  That leads to the issue of Pred(x). Where is it? 0 is already S(x)
03:10:30  Oh
03:10:43  adu: What would they be then
03:10:44  ?
03:10:59  there are hyperN, hyperNroots, hyperNlogarithms, which would you choose for negatives, roots or logs?
03:11:45  adu: That's another problem I was going to cover xD
03:11:58 <\oren\> Apparently a portable lithium battery can also be used as a lightweight incendiary grenade.
03:12:00  hyper2roots and hyper2logs are both division
03:12:10  hyper3roots are surds/radicals
03:12:19  hyper3logs are the traditional "logarithm"
03:12:39  adu: Perhaps we're looking at it wrong?
03:12:50  Perhaps it's not so much a number line we're going for as a number... tripod?
03:12:56  hyper4-x is generally called super-x, i.e. super-roots and super-logarithms
03:13:08  hppavilion[1]: no tripod
03:13:18  Three rays going in directions 120 degrees from each other?
03:13:24  hppavilion[1]: they're indexed by natural numbers, no negatives are required at all
03:13:42  adu: Logs/roots are?
03:14:03  hppavilion[1]: why are you forcing three sets indexed by natural numbers into an structure that doesn't even represent them? stop forcing things to be something they're not
03:14:28  adu: I'm just thinking about uberoperations xD
03:14:59  hppavilion[1]: for any function f(x, y) there are two inverse functions, f^(-1, 0)(x, y), and f^(0, -1)(x, y)
03:15:36  adu: I'm simply making an attempt to generalize the hyperoperations
03:15:45  you can't put those on a number line, because it's 2D
03:15:54  Whihc is, of course, what you're trying to do too
03:16:06  there are quadrillions of mappings between 1D and 2D
03:16:12  which one do you choose?
03:16:12  adu: Out of curiousity, what's f^(-1, -1)(x, y) equal to?
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03:16:24  hppavilion[1]: depends on the function
03:16:59  adu: I choose to forgo the concept of lines for my hyperoperations and instead have positive numbers, fooative numbers, and barative numbers
03:17:12  Or fooative numbers, barative numbers, and bazative numbers
03:17:16  fooative? barative?
03:17:40  It makes no sense, but it's mathematically rigorous AFAICT and at least usable
03:17:48  I need to post this convo to the TetrationForum
03:17:49  adu: I'm not very good at naming things
03:17:54  Yes
03:17:55  You do
03:17:59  lol
03:18:36  adu: But I think tripod numbers would at least be more useful for generalized hyperoperations than linear numbers are
03:19:09  Tripod numbers are written *x, &x, and $x
03:19:27  And there's some sort of logical transformation between them. Or maybe not, maybe we don't need it.
03:20:07  So, perhaps, $&x -> *x, or something like that
03:20:39  There is a place for alternative extensions from Integers to Complexes, but IMHO, it's not going to be very popular
03:20:58  adu: Yes, and the Hyperoperations might just be that place
03:21:10  so far the only extensions that have any sticking-power among mathematicians are "regular" and "intuitive"
03:21:21  adu: I mean, how else do we encode negative hyperoperations? I don't see any way they could be anything /but/ the inverse operations
03:21:35  hppavilion[1]: what is a negative hyperoperations?
03:21:48  they're undefined, what's wrong with that?
03:21:50  adu: a[n]b where n<0
03:21:58  adu: Because it's less fun that way?
03:22:32  $&x -> *x, &$x -> *x; $*x -> &x, *$x -> &x; &*x -> $x, *&x -> $x might work
03:22:35  hppavilion[1]: well, if I were to define them, I would try and continue with the standard recursion rule
03:22:43  adu: Yes, of course
03:23:01  adu: Then again, you can't do recursion like that with the reals
03:23:07  but that doesn't work so well with the (x -> x +1) function
03:23:38  because it doesn't break down like the other operations
03:23:40  (I'm not generalizing to the integers, I'm generalizing to the reals)
03:24:31  adu: Hm... Perhaps n[0]m = 0, and n[1]m = n moved away from 0 by m, etc.? It's in line with the original hyperoperations, AFIACT, but not with standard arithmetic
03:24:46  Oh, shit, forgot to do &&, $$, and **
03:25:06  && -> $, $$ -> *, ** -> & or something
03:25:23  Any continuous hyperoperation sequence would also have to have a definition of the "etas"
03:25:26  It's rotating clockwise 120 degrees instead of 180 degrees, if that makes any sense
03:25:37  adu: The "eta"s?
03:26:06  (Of course, you could also go anticlockwise, but then again, you could also just rotate the graph. Really, it's a matter of arbitrary choice)
03:26:50  eta_N = [0, 1, e^(1/e), 1.6353, ...] and their counterparts eulers_N = [0, 1, e, 3.0885, ...]
03:30:09  adu: I don't think that's how ... works
03:30:31  I think ... needs to follow a sequence that the reader has already picked up the pattern in
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04:50:49 <\oren\> QC has warped to the yeah 20016!!
04:50:57 <\oren\> s/yeah/year
04:52:38 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: he means the identities for the two reverse operations
04:52:47 <\oren\> or something
05:02:46 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
05:18:58  \oren\: more like the year 216
05:19:00  but still cool
05:19:22  Oh, I see
05:19:30  Downloading and saving in case it gets fixed
05:19:46  year 2e16
05:19:56  whether it's hexadecimal or decimal
05:21:07  `printf 2; for i in ${0..16}; do printf 0; done
05:21:14  2; for i in ${0..16}; do printf 0; done
05:21:18  ``printf 2; for i in ${0..16}; do printf 0; done
05:21:20  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `printf: not found
05:21:28  :(
05:22:10  ``echo $0
05:22:11  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
05:22:18  wot?
05:22:22  ``ls bin
05:22:23  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
05:22:38  Ohhhhhhh
05:22:39  `printf 2%016d 0
05:22:40  20000000000000000 0
05:22:45  wat
05:23:00  `printf 2%016d 0
05:23:01  20000000000000000 0
05:23:14  `printf %x 123
05:23:15  0 123
05:23:20  heh
05:23:30  `echo $0
05:23:31  ​$0
05:23:40  :c
05:25:07 -!- Elronnd has set topic: This part of the topic was the first added in 2016 | The international hub for magic gathering and deployment. | Effi's finest fluffy waffles | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/ | This part of the topic was the second added in 2016.
05:27:33  Maybe I can invent the card game a bit like Magic: the Gathering card and Pokemon card and whatever but it is new game, can be call Freecard; I want to avoid the problem made with other designs, by doing in the right way, which means it must be open-source and card game rule play with paper and computer are designed together to ensure it work, and mathematically elegant too.
05:27:50 -!- jaboja has joined.
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06:01:39  man, usialtgr is the best keyboard layout
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06:28:59  Are you sure?
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08:41:24  [wiki] [[Talk:Call stack/Manipulation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46071 * Mroman * (+585) Wouldn't you need to push the current function instead?
08:42:44  [wiki] [[Talk:Call stack/Manipulation]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46072&oldid=46071 * Mroman * (+6) * wiki format
08:44:06  https://dpaste.de/3tGJ/raw  I found this in a Chinese spam message
08:46:54  The email has something to do with Falun Gong
08:48:27  It links to some website talking against the chinese communist party
08:49:52  They are neither communist nor a party, from what I have heard.
08:50:48  [wiki] [[Call stack]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46073&oldid=46063 * Mroman * (+991) buffering calls & x86
08:52:53  it is a spiritual movement afaik
08:57:35  A man was giving out Falun Gong leaflets at the door of the British Museum.
09:00:49 -!- mroman has joined.
09:00:59  I presume there are garbage collectors that have a list of pointers to objects
09:01:07  or a table the form of
09:01:12  | POINTER | LIVE
09:01:52  then at some point they scan through the stack space and mark all objecs as live and check for references from these live objects to other objects
09:01:59  marking every object reachable as live
09:02:13  then just delete all non-live objects
09:02:59  so basically it would be an array of struct gc_entry { object* obj; bool alive; }
09:03:37  and each object knows the index of it's gc entry
09:03:50  in case somebody wants to manually free certain objects at a very specific point
09:04:00  @massages-load
09:04:01  boily said 9d 13h 50m 54s ago: I mapole you.
09:04:01  boily said 9d 13h 50m 25s ago: (with great force and momentum, might I add.)
09:04:01  boily said 9d 13h 50m 19s ago: (tsé.)
09:04:01  boily asked 3d 10h 9m 59s ago: mrhelloman. underdeveloped aliens?
09:04:09  what
09:14:20 -!- hppavilion1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:15:01   "A good chunk of the web today (and particularly the mobile web) effectively relies on -webkit prefixed CSS properties & features. We wish we lived in a world where web content always included standards-based fallback (or at least multiple-vendor-prefixed fallback), but alas, we do not live in that world. To be successful at rendering the web as it exists, we need to add support for a list of frequently-used -webkit prefixed CSS properties & features."
09:15:07  nah
09:15:15  google should just severly punish websites that don't use proper HTML/CSS
09:15:16  fizzie: I'm just wondering what the code from the email is
09:15:49  If your site's rank sinks because you don't use proper HTML/CSS than that would be an incentive to change that.
09:16:07  and that would be only fair
09:16:17  since webpages should generally be viewable in any compliant browser
09:16:37  best viewed with
09:17:07  so it makes sense that a search engine takes the portability of a webpage into account.
09:17:23  http://freefull.github.io/dice.html Is this proper HTML/CSS/Javascript ?
09:18:08  They are trying to define the webpage rendering too much inside the webpage, even though it should depend on user settings instead.
09:18:35  zzo38: totally agree.
09:19:56  and it totally pisses me off that pandoc doesn't generate valid HTML
09:21:12  Then fix pandoc
09:22:44  The other thing I would try to do though is to intend that the service can also be used from commandline (with curl, SQLite, or otherwise) as well and don't necessarily require the web browser; clean HTML writing is also help with such thing, although many of my files I make as plain text since many thing I don't even need HTML anyways.
09:27:43 -!- ^^v has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:27:45  FreeFull: Sometimes it's just random garbage to confuse things that detect spam by exact comparisons.
09:28:17  fizzie: Could be
09:32:54  Once I wrote the spam filter that worked by looking for the stuff that was used to avoid spam detection, and other strange stuff (multiple tabs in the subject line, large numbers of spaces in the subject line, non-ASCII subject lines, base64-encoded HTML, etc)
09:33:59  The distribution looks approximately the sort of thing you get if you pick uniformly random characters from the alphabet [A-Za-z0-9 ].
09:34:37  looks like html5 output is more valid
09:35:23  E-Mails shouldn't contain HTML anyway
09:35:25  :)
09:36:04  Yes I agree it should preferably be plaintext
09:36:20  Some people program their computer to reject HTML email
10:15:45  there should be more of those
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11:43:04  `wisdom
11:43:11  bfjoust/bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
11:43:17  @massages-loud
11:43:17  hppavilion[1] said 11h 45m 45s ago: There was snow here, until a few days ago. Which is weird, because Alaska.
11:45:47  @snow
11:45:47  ""
11:45:56  @metar CYUL
11:45:57  CYUL 051105Z 24005KT 15SM FEW008 M20/M23 A3063 RMK SF1 SLP378 DENSITY ALT MISG
11:46:12  @metar LOWI
11:46:13  LOWI 051120Z 26005KT 180V310 9999 FEW012 SCT070 BKN090 03/00 Q0999 R08/19//95 NOSIG
11:46:40  `? winter
11:46:41  Winter is coming.
11:50:05  @metar ESSB
11:50:06  ESSB 051120Z 04006KT 9999 -SN FEW003 SCT007 M08/M11 Q1009 R12/29//60
11:50:07 -!- andrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:50:32  I forget how to read metars
11:50:49 * FireFly isolates the temperature, skips the rest
11:52:28  light snow; few clouds at 300 feet; scattered clouds at 700 feet; pressure 1009 hPa; 04006KT is wind (from 040, 6 knots) and 9999 is visibility on the ground
11:54:18  15sm, hmm
11:54:50  ah, also visibility, with unit
11:54:55  ah
11:56:54  I'm not sure M20 still counts as "is coming".
11:56:57  @metar EGLL
11:56:57  EGLL 051150Z AUTO 21009KT 180V260 9999 SCT005 09/07 Q0984 NOSIG
11:57:04  No sign of it here.
11:57:39  There's snow in Finland, or so I hear.
11:57:41  @metar EFHK
11:57:42  EFHK 051150Z 36007KT 9999 FEW020 BKN065 BKN200 M18/M21 Q1007 NOSIG
11:57:51  Brrr.
11:58:34  That's almost a 30-degree difference in temperatures.
12:00:08  Is the portal co-op a free co-op, or one where the players are restricted on which buttons they push on the controller?
12:01:04  In Portal 2? Pretty sure both players have full control
12:01:12  great
12:01:17  On PC it's online multiplayer, so each player plays on a separate computer
12:01:22  with full controls etc
12:01:22  ah, I see
12:01:41  so they're controlling two different in-game humanoid characters?
12:01:50  Yep
12:02:00  nice, I didn't know portal 2 could do that
12:02:20  Well "humanoid"--they're robots specifically designed for the co-op
12:02:37  rather than two clones of Chell
12:03:33  This will be interesting, I think I haven't seen this in previous GDQs, although Portal 2 is fast-paced 3D first-person with people jumping around in portals like crazy so I can't usually follow what happens on the screen.
12:04:40  I wonder what the Super Mario Maker will be like.
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12:05:25  The GTA 3 any% run will be interesting. So many nice bugs exhibited!
12:06:35  And of course, the 3D Legend of Zelda games are always amazing.
12:11:27  Especially blindfolded
12:12:12  There's blindfolded punch-out this year, hopefully that'll be great too
12:26:53  Like, on a console, or just two blindfolded people in a room trying to punch each other? 
12:27:36  On a console :p
12:30:27  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSr3aXd4XuQ#t=5m45s
12:31:58  heh
12:52:19  Cloudbuilt looks pretty fun
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13:08:27  FireFly: Sounds like a web technology.
13:21:33  "it is very fast paced and high difficulty and emphasis on acrobatic control"... sounds a bit too serious to be fun ;)
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15:21:12  [wiki] [[Beeswax]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46074&oldid=45976 * Albedo * (+249) major overhaul of the layout
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15:21:52  [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46075&oldid=46074 * Albedo * (+0) /* Table with all cloning and deletion directions */  typo
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15:53:55  [wiki] [[Tonoco]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46076&oldid=40979 * 78.52.143.140 * (-6) /* Box Reference */
15:54:27  [wiki] [[Tonoco]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46077&oldid=46076 * 78.52.143.140 * (-6) /* Control Flow */
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17:20:14  I have my "Eodermdrome" exam in 40 minutes
17:20:44  how so?
17:21:05  myname, that's when the exam was scheduled
17:21:12  It's on computation by graph transformation
17:21:16  ah
17:23:03  Incidentally, "forty" is the only number spelt in English with its letters in alphabetical order
17:23:29  > sort "forty"
17:23:31   "forty"
17:23:42  > sort "eight"
17:23:44   "eghit"
17:23:50  it isn÷t
17:23:55  "a" is also
17:24:04  A is an article, not a number
17:24:11  You can't add three to a
17:24:16  ah, number
17:24:19  > reverse . sort $ "one" -- arguably sorted as well
17:24:21   "one"
17:24:22  i overread that
17:24:39  int-e, that's maximally unsorted!
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19:03:05  Taneb: this is great for a trivia contests thx
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19:04:55  If I'm making a language in the spirit of unicode
19:06:07  Should I make the language based on english syntactically (e.g. variables are [a-zA-Z_][a-zA-Z0-9_]*, and Δ an operator), or should I make it so that the entire language allows for a wide variety of languages to be used (Δ would be a variable)?
19:06:24  I have a feeling the second one is more correct, but the first makes code look cooler xD
19:10:11  quintopia, "four" is the only number in the English language with as many letters as its value
19:11:57  Taneb: What about x=1?
19:12:09  x where x=1, that is
19:12:23  I count polynomials as numbers because "close enough"
19:12:32  (and in this case, monomials)
19:12:37  hppavilion[1], polynomials aren't words in the English language
19:13:10  Taneb: x is a term, and thus could be used alone in a text ("so if we assume that x is equal to 1...")
19:13:13  Therefor it's a word
19:13:41  *Therefour
19:13:54  hppavilion[1], I disagree; we use names in text (such as "hppavilion[1]") but I wouldn't put them in a Crossword or play them in Scrabble
19:14:59  Taneb: Crossword clue: "This man attempted to take over the world (vertical 12+5i) (vertical is, like, up and down (so towards your face when looking directly down))
19:15:00  "
19:15:27  Answer: Napoleon, but good luck writing it in the 3d complex manifold crossword puzzle.
19:15:49  the definition of a word is actually quite hard
19:16:21  myname: Like in the case of vertical?
19:16:30  https://youtu.be/Vu3eDf4p0r0
19:16:43  myname: Internet is filtered at my location. Can you give me the tl;dr?
19:16:52  Well, the aif;cw?
19:16:58  words are weird
19:17:31  ("America is fascist; couldn't watch")
19:19:23  myname: What do you think of the idea of Unilang? A unified, unicode-based declarative programming language
19:20:37  how so? on the "a language like unicode" thing i first thought youkd want to make something with as much useless and clattered stuf as possible
19:20:47  but then again, there is already c++
19:21:14  myname: xD
19:21:26  Yes, it is pretty cluttered and will feature some pretty useless things xD
19:22:04  The idea is a standard sort of programming language. Not a "global overarching standard" like unicode is, of course, but a sort of option language based on various other languages for expressing algorithms and such
19:22:13  In a way a computer can parse and evaluate
19:22:24  like, assembly?
19:22:46  myname: Yes, but higher-level. Obviously.
19:22:57  like, c?
19:23:02  myname: A language entirely based on arithmetical expressions
19:23:08  Closer to Haskell than ASM
19:23:20  But not as beautiful as Haskell
19:23:56  "i want sometjing like haskell, but less beautiful"
19:24:02  Because Haskell is the goddamn  of programming languages.
19:24:14  myname: Also, weirder
19:24:24  i do like the idea of curry
19:24:49  it's like "hey, let's take that language and put more awesomeness in it"
19:27:14  myname: It takes some inspiration from APL
19:27:38  huh?
19:27:42  how so
19:28:07  it looks prologish
19:28:17  also, i like the non-determinism
19:28:33  myname: Well. I read a fraction of the Wiki article on APL and took out the ideas I liked
19:28:42  a?b = a
19:28:42  And put them into UniLang
19:28:46  a?b = b
19:28:57  is tje definition of ? in curry
19:29:02  a?b = OMGWTF
19:29:10  myname: What does ? do though?
19:29:23  it chooses either a or b
19:29:29  myname: At random?
19:29:49  yes, but in a way that it still fits all boundaries
19:29:52  Oooooooooooooh
19:29:54  Whoooooooooa
19:30:29  also
19:30:36  insert x ys = x:ys
19:30:49  insert x (y:ys) = y: insert x ys
19:30:58  puts an element anywhere in a list
19:31:27  mindblown :: Bool
19:31:32  mindblown = True
19:32:23  permutation (x:xs) = insert x (permutation xs)
19:34:38  [wiki] [[Beeswax]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46078&oldid=46075 * Albedo * (+8) /* File related I/O */  text formatting
19:35:35  [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46079&oldid=46078 * Albedo * (-2) /* File related I/O */ typos
19:35:40  does anybody have contact to the beeswax author?
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20:51:35  `? coalgebra
20:51:54  coalgebra? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:52:17  A coalgebra is just like in high school maths but with the arrows reversed
20:52:26  but high school maths doesn't have arrows
20:52:33  except occasionally above vectors
20:52:57  reversed vector arrows would be funny
20:53:09  ais523, that I am afraid was most of the joke
20:53:10  depends on how high
20:54:03  so are coroutines just routines with reversed arrows?
20:55:24 -!- TieSoul has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:55:27  goroutines are just routines that walk instread of running
20:56:44  `` sed -i 's/robots,/Lambek'\''s lemma, &/' wisdom/tanebvention
20:56:47  No output.
20:57:22  Taneb is obviously an expert in coalgebras, having invented Lambek's lemma
21:01:13 -!- haavard has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:01:20  `? tanebventioin
21:01:22  tanebventioin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:01:23  `? tanebvention
21:01:24  Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, robots, cigars, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
21:02:14 -!- haavard has joined.
21:02:57 -!- haavard has quit (Client Quit).
21:02:59  did Taneb invent Lambek's lemma directly or did Taneb invent Lambek who then invented the lemma
21:03:04  are inventions transitive
21:03:21 -!- haavard has joined.
21:03:22  shachaf, I do not think inventions are transitive but I do not think they are anti-transitive either
21:03:56  So here's an idea for an Esosport
21:04:21  hppavilion[1]: um, all soprts are eso
21:04:24  all sports
21:04:28  Fixed-parser esolang design
21:04:31  it's the default
21:04:37  b_jonas: Yes, but this is a sport based around Eso/langs/
21:04:47  An individual or group provides a parser to the players
21:04:57  Each player or group of players takes it and attempts to make a language
21:05:12  Whoever makes the best language, at the discretion of a group of judges or the host, wins.
21:07:32  "Best" may mean most eso (pure) or most logical and usable (working with what you have)
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21:12:48  b_jonas: What do you think of that idea?
21:12:56  I mayormaynot already have a lexer and parser prepared for it
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21:27:45  parser-alpha
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21:31:42  [wiki] [[Parser Alpha]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46080 * Hppavilion1 * (+314) Created Page
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21:49:46  What about this: an esolang interpreter/compiler for which you have to figure out the language
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21:50:32  So it would be a different language for each instalation, but stay consistant over time?
21:52:13  I think haavard just means that you get the interp as a binary blob (or possibly even with source code) and you have to figure out how the language works by experimentation
21:52:24  some of my original plans for Snowflake work like that but even worse
21:52:27  but I toned it down a lot
21:52:50  Maybe even an online form to which you submit your program, so there's no source or disassembly available
21:53:16  And yeah, some language you have to figure out, not an existing one
21:54:34  ais523, it could even be a network black box
21:54:48  right
21:55:02  in which case I hope it gives useful error messages :-)
21:55:13  [>+>->[>]><>>>,>.[Hello, world!]]>++
21:55:17  there's a hello world in takeover
21:55:37  http://esolangs.org/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
21:55:41  I decided to use the same 8 chars as BF to confuse people (after I realised I'd naturally chosen a bunch of them anyway)
21:55:45  I see a fish in there
21:55:50  the language is unrelated
21:56:01  It is related.
21:56:06  anyone want to guess how the language works based on that?
21:56:12  MDude: well only in that it's an esolang
21:56:16  No.
21:56:47  It is also related in that you could have a website that interprets a language similar to TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
21:57:09  ais523, I'm guessing that in some circumstances [ and ] work as string delimiters
21:57:09  But instead of having the language be based on the time of day, it could be different for each user ID.
21:57:16  Taneb: indeed
21:57:25  and you're also correct that they don't /always/ work as string delimeters
21:57:28  So you would create an account and get a randomly generated language.
21:57:44  MDude: oh, we're in separate conversations
21:57:52  ais523, are they sometimes procedure delimiters?
21:57:55  I was talking about Takeover, you were apparently talking about the new TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
21:58:01  And it wouldn't tell you which variation it is, do you'd have to reverse-engineer it.
21:58:15  Taneb: they sometimes aren't delimeters at all; there isn't much of a distinction between string and procedure delimiters
21:58:38  this explains why we were disagreeing with each other :-)
22:00:24  Hmm
22:00:34  They do, at least in that excerpt, seem to always be matching
22:00:36  (my previous comment was to MDude)
22:00:37  This may be a coincidence
22:00:47  Taneb: I did that to make the program easier to write
22:01:02  the second [ and first ] have no reason to match each other, but the first and last have to match
22:01:16  and thus I made the ones inside match too so that they didn't throw off the matching of the outside ones
22:02:18  here's an equivalent program to that one (but slightly longer): [>+>->]-[[><>>>,>.[Hello, world!]]>++
22:05:53 -!- Trinity has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:06:16  most of the awkwardness in the language is to do with the use-mention distinction, which is kind-of more fluid than normal
22:07:18  Interesting
22:07:52  This is a very small rosetta stone to decode a language from, and that's not something I'm hugely good at in the first place
22:08:14  indeed, I wasn't really expecting someone to figure it out, just as a thought process to see how difficult it would be
22:08:20  I haven't written any larger programs yet
22:08:39  even the hello world took a while to get working; I wrote it correctly the first time but was failing due to interp bugs
22:09:20  That's the fun part
22:09:25  "Which program is wrong?"
22:10:02  well I got suspicious when the debug mode said that none of the commands were doing anything at all
22:10:33  I really hope the example programs I pulled off the Internet are actually correct, otherwise using them as test cases would be a bad idea
22:11:38  haavard: which language?
22:11:41  or is that a secret?
22:11:50  ><>, fish
22:13:29  ah right
22:13:34  that comes up at PPCG every now and then
22:13:51  (also I don't get which PPCG caught on at Stack Exchange when it's one of the worst possible platforms for that sort of thing)
22:15:19  Yeah, I was pretty amazed when I discovered someone actually wrote programs for my language :p
22:16:49  oh, that's your language?
22:16:57  it's about the right sort of power to make codegolf interesting
22:17:03  (I suspect Takeover might be a little too weak
22:17:04  )
22:17:09  let me post an interp and the spec
22:17:58  Yeah, it's something I puzzled up years ago
22:18:30  Writing a new interpreter now, the old one probably sucks :P
22:19:05  [wiki] [[Language list]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46081&oldid=46048 * Ais523 * (+15) /* T */ +[[Takeover]]
22:20:44  ais523: Are coalgebras found in naughty category theorists' stockings?
22:20:57  hmm, not sure
22:23:02  [wiki] [[Takeover]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46082 * Ais523 * (+17083) new esolang
22:23:56  [wiki] [[Template:Yearcats]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46083&oldid=41593 * Ais523 * (+26) happy new year
22:24:42  [wiki] [[Category:2016]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46084 * Ais523 * (+11) happy new year
22:25:28  [wiki] [[User:Ais523]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46085&oldid=46039 * Ais523 * (+14) +[[Takeover]] (wow this list is getting long)
22:26:44  [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46086&oldid=46027 * Ais523 * (+67) /* Takeover */ new section
22:27:37  Taneb: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Takeover if you want to see how the language works :-)
22:28:52  Thanks :)
22:29:06  btw what I've been calling my Eodermdrome exam went well today
22:29:53  you had an exam on Eodermdrome?
22:30:29  I had an exam on programming by graph transformation
22:31:17  Which... actually does it about as differently from Eodermdrome as possible
22:31:25  It's based on directed graphs, for a start
22:32:16  ais523, if you're up to date with all the various graph programming languages used by precisely one department in one university, the lecturer is the creator of GP and GP2
22:32:29  sadly I'm not :-(
22:32:47  although having labels on the nodes, and directed arcs, makes programming a lot easier
22:33:10  Is https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/plasma/publications/pdf/Plump.WRS.11.pdf publicly accessible?
22:33:19  Apparently.
22:33:32  That's the design of GP 2
22:33:36  As you can tell from the title of the paper
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22:41:38  @metar CYUL
22:41:39  CYUL 052200Z 23009KT 15SM FEW240 M13/M17 A3052 RMK CI1 CI TR SLP342
22:41:45  woohoo. M13.
22:41:50  @metar KOAK
22:41:51  KOAK 052153Z 24006KT 10SM FEW013 BKN032 OVC045 11/09 A2972 RMK AO2 RAE40 SLP065 P0000 T01110089
22:42:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: buying things before the shops shut).
22:43:03  hellochaf.
22:43:11  yowly
22:43:20  @yowly
22:43:20  Somewhere in DOWNTOWN BURBANK a prostitute is OVERCOOKING a LAMB CHOP!!
22:44:31  I am not a pinhead. I am sane.
22:44:40  @yow!
22:44:41  Mr and Mrs PED, can I borrow 26.7% of the RAYON TEXTILE production of
22:44:41  the INDONESIAN archipelago?
22:46:30  @metar RKSI
22:46:31  RKSI 052230Z 13005KT 9999 SCT040 M02/M11 Q1027 NOSIG
22:56:31 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: weeee).
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23:04:06  @metar ENVA
23:04:06  ENVA 052250Z 13009KT CAVOK M12/M17 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 12009KT
23:04:26  hellørjan.
23:05:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:06:34  brrroily
23:08:23  the yr.no weather forecast for my place says about -9, also a warning about wildfire danger in places in the region without snow.
23:08:49  perhaps we will have another strangely dry january like 2 years ago
23:09:34  "There are of course, certain conditions under which the detector will not indicate the presence of ice: (a) When there is no ice."
23:10:00  shocking
23:10:48  there was only one other condition listed
23:10:52  looks like it may stay dry but get a little less cold
23:11:06  "When there is no ice, or when the detector is broken"
23:12:35  the other condition was about a paragraph but boiled down to "when there is not enough ice to detect"
23:12:42  I feel like they missed quite a few, such as that one
23:13:03  "When there is WAY TOO MUCH ICE"
23:13:50  @metar EFHK
23:13:50  EFHK 052250Z 02009KT 9999 FEW030 BKN053 M20/M22 Q1010 NOSIG
23:13:57  @metar EGLL
23:13:58  EGLL 052250Z AUTO VRB02KT 5000 BR OVC047 06/06 Q0989 NOSIG
23:14:12  Aw, the temperature differential's not getting higher; 26 now.
23:15:38  M20?
23:15:46  When I was in EFHK it was 30.
23:16:32  That was probably not in January.
23:16:38  Correct.
23:16:48  @metar EGNT
23:16:49  EGNT 052250Z 11013KT 090V150 9999 -RA BKN009 06/06 Q0992
23:16:49  I doubt it's ever been 30 at EFHK in January. Well, indoors maybe.
23:17:06  I hear that some of those numbers represent temperature
23:17:13  Taneb: That's the 06.
23:17:27  ...temperature 80 miles away from here
23:17:30  It can easily be 00 at EFHK in January, though, so M20 does count as pretty cold.
23:18:18  If you ask me M20 is too cold.
23:18:22  @metar EGBB
23:18:22  EGBB 052250Z VRB03KT 3900 RA SCT006 BKN049 06/06 Q0989
23:18:49  shachaf: The Finnish weather site I usually use says it's "feels like" value is -30°.
23:19:04  temperature = dew point, does that mean no humidity?
23:19:10  M20 is interesting. my moustache and beard freeze.
23:19:27  ais523: it means 100% humidity hth
23:20:54  The forecast says it'll stay that cold until Friday (nightly lows at -25, -26, -26) but then on Sunday day it'll be at 0 (-7 at night).
23:20:55  hmm, Wikipedia's example METAR has the wind at 120°, varying from 290° to 310°
23:20:59  something seems wrong with tis
23:21:00  *this
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23:21:33  fizzie: what temperature is it like indoors? and how often do you have to go outdoors in such conditions?
23:21:47  metacircular winds.
23:22:17  Indoor temperatures generally don't vary, unless you're stuck in an old house or something. They know about insulation.
23:25:22  hmm, it's not raining here at the university, but it apparently is at the airort
23:25:47  although given the apparent lack of wind, it might take a while for the rain to get here, if indeed it's even moving in this direction
23:25:51  Well, I mean, they do vary in the sense that in the summer indoor temperatures are unbearably hot for a few days, because they *don't* know about air conditioning.
23:26:58  I don't think I've ever lived anywhere with inadequate heating or drafty rooms for a long period of time.
23:27:44  The university here has a weather station, but lambdabot doesn't know about it
23:28:29  This current place is all-electric heating, so the indoor temperature is whatever we configure the radiators at, and then it just costs more. I think we're paying some ridiculous multiple of what our power bill in Finland used to be, here.
23:29:51  (District heating is very widespread in Finland, AIUI.)
23:30:06   quintopia, "four" is the only number in the English language with as many letters as its value <-- also, all others converge to it after a few steps
23:30:16  electric heating is pretty rare in the UK
23:30:25  most places have gas-based central heating
23:30:58  ais523: We don't even have a gas hob, which was somewhat difficult to arrange here.
23:31:15  in norwegian, 2=to, 3=tre, 4=fire all work...
23:31:23  My parents house has gas heating and a wood-burning stove
23:31:26  hobs/ovens are about equally split gas/electric in my experience
23:31:45  ah right, wood/coal heating is not unheard of
23:32:04  you can buy coal/charcoal/firewood at pretty much any petrol station, so presumably there are people who do
23:32:19  (en_GB:petrol = en_US:gasoline)
23:32:21  Finnish probably doesn't have any sorted numbers.
23:32:45  fizzie: not about sorting
23:32:59  hm although
23:33:10  Oh, this was something else? Right, I didn't even verify.
23:33:44  fizzie: numbers whose length equals their numerical value
23:33:44  You can buy charcoal and firewood at pretty much any petrol station in Finland too, but I've always assumed those are mostly for people doing cooking outdoors.
23:34:09  We've got viisi (5).
23:34:23  for some reason I'm reminded of Last ReSort, which similarly compares two numbers in different units
23:34:45  Kahdeksan (8, length 9) and yhdeksän (9, length 8) are just the wrong way around.
23:34:59  those are weird names for numbers!
23:35:06  no. 1=en, ei, ett  is pretty sorted.  in all genders.  i think that's the only number though.
23:35:07  (8 and 9, that is; 5 seems reasonable)
23:35:34  words which have no repeated letters, and letters in alphabetical order
23:35:47  are much loved by NetHack players because you can spell them in prompts
23:35:51  Yksi, kaksi, kolme, neljä, viisi, kuusi, seitsemän, kahdeksan, yhdeksän, kymmenen; yksitoista, kaksitoista, kolmetoista, neljätoista, viisitoista, kuusitoista, seitsemäntoista, kahdeksantoista, yhdeksäntoista; kaksikymmentä, kaksikymmentäyksi, kaksikymmentäkaksi, ... and then it's mostly systematic.
23:35:55 * ais523 tries to remember what the longest words with its letters in sorted order is
23:35:56  They're pretty long.
23:36:04  As you'd expect, in colloquial speech people abbreviate them.
23:36:14  ais523, spoonfeed is longest in reverse order
23:36:43  I once borrowed a book from a library which was basically just about words with unusual properties, including records
23:36:49  it's where I got the name "eodermdrome" from
23:37:04   something seems wrong with tis <-- the difference is about 180, so presumably it's a toward/away from swap
23:37:20  (it was discussing the shortest possible word with a nonplanar adjacency graph)
23:37:29  oerjan: It shouldn't have one, though, according to the METAR decoded instructions I usually look at.
23:38:57  `` wc /usr/share/dict/words
23:39:04  I hope we have a dictionary in HackEgo
23:39:08  wc: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
23:39:09  more fun than doing things locally
23:39:12  bleh
23:39:39  The numbers 11..19 are all of the form "toista" where "" is one of 1..9; the suffix "-toista" means approximately "of the second".
23:39:58  So 17 -> "7 of the second [set of ten]".
23:40:28  We don't even have special words for 11 or 12.
23:41:53  where is HackEgo physically?
23:41:55  `help
23:41:55  Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:41:58  Also when the sorted numbers came up, the /usr/share/dict/words on my work-workstation only had English sorted words for up to length of about 6 when disallowing repetitions.
23:42:09  "almost" was one of them.
23:42:48  I made the obligatory Perl oneliner, it involved a join("", sort { ord($a) <=> ord($b) } split //) construct.
23:42:56 * ais523 geolocates the IP
23:43:15  ais523: The fshg browser is not physically where HackEgo is, sorry.
23:43:21  There's a reverse-proxy setup involved.
23:43:32 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
23:43:36  fizzie: I'm using its /whois IP
23:43:41  Oh, right.
23:43:47  which is presumably how it connects to the internet
23:43:56  Finland, it seems
23:43:58  I just thought `help was related, and didn't think it's probably not cloaked.
23:44:05  wait no
23:44:08  I missed a digit
23:44:15  That sounded very unlikely.
23:44:22  Ontario, Canada
23:44:23 -!- Trinity has joined.
23:44:23 -!- Trinity has quit (Changing host).
23:44:23 -!- Trinity has joined.
23:44:31  I'd been assuming CloudAtCost is in the states somewhere.
23:44:33  fizzie, are you runing hackego these days?
23:44:41  `fetch http://ftp.ca.debian.org/debian/pool/main/s/scowl/wamerican_7.1-1_all.deb
23:44:44  2016-01-05 23:44:32 URL:http://ftp.ca.debian.org/debian/pool/main/s/scowl/wamerican_7.1-1_all.deb [272134/272134] -> "wamerican_7.1-1_all.deb" [1]
23:44:45  ais523: my understanding is that the finnish words for 8 and 9 are derivations adding a suffix -ks[aä]n to a form of 2 and 1 respectively
23:45:13  Phantom_Hoover: Not really, just sort of helping out occasionally since I've got a thing on the system for maintaining the wiki.
23:45:35  `ar t wamerican*.deb
23:45:36  ar: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: ar [emulation options] [-]{dmpqrstx}[abcDfilMNoPsSTuvV] [--plugin ] [member-name] [count] archive-file file... \        ar -M [ oerjan: I've never thought about that, but it sounds even almost plausible.
23:46:12  what kind of crazy ar impl is this?
23:46:14  oh
23:46:18  `` ar t wamerican*.deb
23:46:19  debian-binary \ control.tar.gz \ data.tar.gz
23:46:31  `` ar x wamerican*.deb data.tar.gz
23:46:33  No output.
23:46:45  `` tar tfz data.tar.gz
23:46:48  ​./ \ ./usr/ \ ./usr/share/ \ ./usr/share/dict/ \ ./usr/share/dict/american-english \ ./usr/share/doc/ \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/ \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/README.Debian \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/changelog.Debian.gz \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/copyright \ ./usr/share/doc/wamerican/wamerican.scowl-word-lists-used \ ./usr/share/man/ \ ./usr/s
23:47:35  `` tar -xzOf data.tar.gz ./usr/share/dict/american-english > dict-words
23:47:37  No output.
23:47:41  `` wc dict-words
23:47:42  ​ 99171  99171 938848 dict-words
23:47:45  there we go
23:47:50  `` rm data.tar.gz
23:47:53  No output.
23:47:58  `` rm wamercan*.deb
23:47:59  rm: cannot remove `wamercan*.deb': No such file or directory
23:48:03  `` rm wamerican*.deb
23:48:07  No output.
23:48:15  `` echo No output.
23:48:16  No output.
23:48:22  I should have got a Canadian list really but American is the default
23:49:40  `` grep a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z* dict-words
23:49:41  A \ A's \ AA's \ AB's \ ABM's \ AC's \ ACTH's \ AI's \ AIDS's \ AM's \ AOL \ AOL's \ ASCII's \ ASL's \ ATM's \ ATP's \ AWOL's \ AZ's \ AZT's \ Aachen \ Aaliyah \ Aaliyah's \ Aaron \ Abbas \ Abbasid \ Abbott \ Abbott's \ Abby \ Abby's \ Abdul \ Abdul's \ Abe \ Abe's \ Abel \ Abel's \ Abelard \ Abelson \ Abelson's \ Aberdeen \ Aberdeen's \ Abernathy 
23:49:46  hmm
23:49:53  `` grep ^a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*$ dict-words
23:49:54  a \ abbess \ abbey \ abbot \ abet \ abhor \ abhors \ ably \ abort \ abuzz \ accent \ accept \ access \ accost \ ace \ aces \ achoo \ achy \ act \ ad \ add \ adder \ adders \ adds \ adept \ ado \ adopt \ ads \ adz \ aegis \ aery \ affix \ afoot \ aft \ aglow \ ago \ ah \ ahoy \ ail \ ails \ aim \ aims \ air \ airs \ airy \ all \ allot \ allow \ allo
23:50:03  so how do I sort by length
23:50:10  sort doesn't have an option for that
23:50:31  I usually just print a length column in front.
23:50:36  Then sort -nr and then cut it out.
23:51:05  `` grep ^a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*$ dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:51:09  No output.
23:51:12  hmm
23:51:12  `` grep ^a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*$ dict-words | perl -ne 'print length($_), " ", $_;' | sort -nr | head
23:51:14  8 billowy \ 7 knotty \ 7 glossy \ 7 floppy \ 7 floors \ 7 effort \ 7 choppy \ 7 choosy \ 7 chintz \ 7 chinos
23:51:22  `` grep ^a*b*c*d*e*f*g*h*i*j*k*l*m*n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*$ dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:51:23  billowy \ abbess \ abhors \ accent \ accept \ access \ accost \ adders \ almost \ begins \ bellow \ billow \ biopsy \ cellos \ chills \ chilly \ chimps \ chinos \ chintz \ choosy \ choppy \ effort \ floors \ floppy \ glossy \ knotty \ abbey \ abbot \ abhor \ abort \ abuzz \ achoo \ adder \ adept \ adopt \ aegis \ affix \ afoot \ aglow \ allot \ all
23:51:27  there we go
23:51:36  not very many such sorted words, it seems
23:52:10  I always even just print length($_) instead of the actual length (counts the newline), since it doesn't change the ordering.
23:52:33  I remember biopsy and almost from the list.
23:52:45  `` find | grep -i word
23:52:56  ​./bin/rainwords \ ./bin/words \ ./bin/word \ ./dict-words \ ./share/WordData \ ./share/WordData/French \ ./share/WordData/GermanMedical \ ./share/WordData/Brazilian \ ./share/WordData/EngUs \ ./share/WordData/Finnish \ ./share/WordData/Bulgarian \ ./share/WordData/Ogerman \ ./share/WordData/EngGb \ ./share/WordData/Catalan \ ./share/WordData/Spa
23:53:15  ooh, we have WordData too
23:53:25  It may not be in a reasonable format.
23:53:29  but I think that's ngrammed
23:53:45  `` find | grep -i word | grep -v share/WordData
23:53:48  ​./bin/rainwords \ ./bin/words \ ./bin/word \ ./dict-words \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/word.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/rainwords.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/words.i \ ./.hg/store/data/p7zip__9.20.1/_d_o_c_s/_m_a_n_u_a_l/switches/password.htm.i \ ./.hg/store/data/git-master/t/t4034-diff-words.sh.i \ ./.hg/store/data/share/_word_data \ ./.hg/store/data/share
23:54:02  `` ghc -e 'interact $ unlines . sortBy (compare `on` length) . filter (\x -> x == sort x) . lines' < dict-words
23:54:03  bash: ghc: command not found
23:54:05  scow
23:54:11  `` find | grep -i word | grep -v share/WordData | grep -v '\.hg'
23:54:15  ​./bin/rainwords \ ./bin/words \ ./bin/word \ ./dict-words \ ./wisdom/word \ ./wisdom/password
23:54:17  `` grep ^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$ dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:54:18  No output.
23:54:33  `` grep ^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$ dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:54:34  No output.
23:54:40  what did I get wrong there?
23:54:46  shachaf: Gregor didn't reinstall ghc when he moved servers
23:55:04  ais523: no quotes?
23:55:17  shouldn't have mattered, but maybe it does
23:55:22  9 aegilops
23:55:24  `` grep '^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$' dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:55:25  No output.
23:55:35  Taneb: what sort of word is "aegilops"
23:55:46  it's all greek to me
23:55:46 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:55:51  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aegilops
23:56:00  ais523: egrep.
23:56:06  ais523, I have a wordlist with a lot of words in it
23:56:07  fizzie: oh ofc
23:56:07  `` wc -l dict-words
23:56:09  Or a lot of slashes.
23:56:10  99171 dict-words
23:56:10  `` egrep '^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$' dict-words | perl -ne 'push @a, $_; END {print sort {length $b <=> length $a} @a}'
23:56:11  certainty \ imprudent \ loquacity \ abstains \ acerbity \ acquaint \ adequacy \ adjacent \ adorably \ airships \ belabors \ chivalry \ chowders \ citadels \ corsairs \ definers \ deforest \ degrades \ develops \ eloquent \ envelops \ foremost \ hindmost \ horsefly \ hostelry \ impudent \ invaders \ mortuary \ ability \ abrades \ abstain \ academy \
23:56:13  Including chthonian
23:56:37  in NetHack you can use capital letters as well as lowercase letters to make it work a bit longer
23:56:49  I remember loquacity from the last time the NetHack inventory compatibility topic came up.
23:56:54  NetHack reverses capital and lowercase letter sorting or something, right?
23:57:05  shachaf: capitals sort later than lowercase
23:57:12  that's not so much "reverse" as just "different from ASCII"
23:57:25  Without any conditions on the words: 61 Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch's
23:57:30  This is a lot of words
23:57:35  huh, apparently it used to be spelt ægilops
23:57:44  I have a feeling the place I work, they'd have long lists of words too.
23:57:48  `` file dict-source  # this had a relatively amusing result
23:57:48  which is a ligature that the topic doesn't have :-P
23:57:49  dict-source: ERROR: cannot open `dict-source' (No such file or directory)
23:57:54  Er.
23:57:55  `` file dict-words
23:57:57  dict-words: assembler source, UTF-8 Unicode text
23:58:06  Yes, thinko.
23:58:07  who writes asm in UTF-8 :-P
23:58:25  I guess it's /shaped/ like asm, but doesn't have nearly enough punctuation and numbers
23:59:04 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
23:59:35  Where I used to work, we had a copy of https://catalog.ldc.upenn.edu/LDC2006T13 which I used a couple of times for random things like this. It's got 13588391 "words".
23:59:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:59:51  why does almost every PDF end up leaking internal filename details from the computer it was made via its title?

2016-01-06:

00:00:11  fizzie: in what language? allegedly English?
00:00:31  ais523: Yes, but only very approximately.
00:00:55  `words --help
00:00:58  Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \  \ options: \   -l, --list             list valid datasets \   -d, --debug            debugging output \   -N, --dont-normalize   don't normalize frequencies when combining \                          multiple Markov models; this has the effect \                          of making larger dataset
00:01:02  now I wonder what words approximate English has
00:01:05  typos, perhaps?
00:01:08  `words -l
00:01:11  valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
00:01:22  `words --eng-all
00:01:30  Is that the same as the approximate words that English has?
00:01:33  that uses the WordData, i take
00:01:38  yes
00:01:44  which is heavily ngrammed IIRC
00:01:48  `` words --eng-all 10
00:01:53  `words --hebrew 10
00:01:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:01:56  oops
00:01:59  `` words --hebrew 10
00:02:05  shal
00:02:07  It works with a single ` (when it works).
00:02:14 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:02:22  `echo test
00:02:25  ​המיי והסגר אונטו להטעמ סטפל ונתי בתוקפס אופמל שהורמציא שקפת
00:02:25  ​ומא הנבי ותו והלו קיבלת בגרמו התשוב ולתפ מדכתבואנט ארשתי
00:02:26  The script does its own argument splitting if it only gets a single argument that contains spaces, or some-such.
00:02:27  test
00:02:29  med hmmerial prae marit patro ress beau dez oxb olsen
00:02:36  Just being laggery, apparently.
00:02:45 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
00:02:59  now I'm wondering what happens if you put hackego `words output into an online translator
00:03:04  That's an interesting interleaving
00:03:04  `words --german 20
00:03:06  bilisen hocherksto joyaisorgangift beiten abwehrbund alitätenpaß leben perichenfandar gestwärtne verabzügen torischwing schlagenwein pferia hufernzugenerandel metrat mannen fache maeclaviaturbeisener nidiposumker hilfe
00:03:17  at least one of those is a real word
00:03:21  "German - detected".
00:03:28  `words --hebrew 20
00:03:30  ​יאמצני ונתגדו וקל מטפו ונכר ועבד קסיסמא וביז שחששו ותח וישאל בכונת שהקולין ההזיולם טוטיפותר ומספי במלח והמפו כשנמר הזדים
00:03:54  most were left alone
00:03:58  some were capitalized in various ways
00:04:06  e.g. beiten → BEITEN
00:04:23  It also translated abwehrbund to "defense bund", leben to "live", schlagenwein to "beat wine", fache to "times" and hilfe to "Help".
00:04:24  "abwehrbund" translates to "defense bund", apparently
00:05:05  the translations of leben and hilfe are actually correct, apart from possibly capitalization
00:05:11  leben and hilfe are correct, anyway
00:05:12  `words --french 20
00:05:15  ​étaire kovt lix lacic lirmat locailr hocquité fuvre plicoppe cba ems sylloukhostrie brabort fandres réinsurs litères eduimamiti deredaireronné koiserlartine befulat
00:05:24  Ewige Blumenwein Und Ewige Schlangenwein
00:05:51  shachaf: schlagen, not schlangen hth
00:06:00  wow, only one change on the French (litères → Literes)
00:06:00  pretty sure that's different
00:06:13  oerjan: schangenkraft, not schagenkraft hth
00:06:15  oops
00:06:19  i messed that up
00:06:23  schlangenkraft
00:06:42  `words --italian 20
00:06:43  sballere inendo carla predierò curerò procura all'offuma attimbre redeno fruschi spell'augura rapandosi sonacano faccendi abbagliente appandoccusa trasbottammo marrete consavamo riatenere
00:06:47  snake wine is the fancy version of snake oil
00:07:00  shachaf: oh i assumed you were starting from the schlagenwein
00:07:14  i was combining schagenwein and schlangenkraft
00:07:18  look
00:07:25  why'd you have to make me go and type it out like that
00:07:28  The headlines of the biggest Finnish newspaper today mentioned how Google Translate was translating "Російська Федерація" (Russian Federation) in Ukranian → Russian mode to Мордор (Mordor).
00:07:31  we have some words there, "curerò procura" becomes "heal attorney"
00:07:34  The perils of machine learning.
00:07:51  snake wine salesmen tend to be snobs
00:07:52  fizzie: intentional Googlebomb? or some sort of crazy accident?
00:08:13  (also, is the input being given there spelled in Russian or in Ukranian?)
00:08:29  I think it's in Ukranian, but I'm certainly no expert.
00:08:30  shachaf: is snake wine fermented snake oil?
00:08:38  Perhaps.
00:08:58  fizzie: did you know the meaning of "sgtm" a year ago
00:09:00  I think our official comment is that it's just an accident, and not really all that crazy either.
00:09:29  the russian is Российская Федерация
00:09:42  shachaf: I think so, but I'm not 100% sure. Certainly it feels now as if I'd always known it.
00:09:54  russian no longer uses і
00:10:16  I used it in another channel and someone deduced my employment history from it.
00:10:32  And I looked in my email history and apparently I never used it before 2013.
00:10:37  shachaf: I don't know what it stands for, altough I'm guessing "sounds/seems good to me"
00:10:42  from reverse etymology
00:10:43  But now I think it was always common.
00:10:53  So who knows.
00:11:06  at Agora, very occasionally, people will write a message entirely as an acronym, and sometimes people figure out what it was meant to be
00:11:08  ais523: Yes.
00:11:17  ais523: That's also true in this channel.
00:11:25   ityarfo
00:11:25  shachaf: Today was my first Googleversary.
00:11:28   sptm
00:11:30  well this channel and Agora have quite an overlap
00:11:43  fizzie: did you get balloons?
00:11:47  theory: "scow" is actually an acronym but nobody knows what it stands for
00:11:57  Just ones in an email.
00:11:57  I know the etymology of "scow".
00:12:12  You didn't get who balloons?
00:12:25  Or teams balloons or whatever that thing is called.
00:13:06  Maybe you also got ASUs or something.
00:13:37  I don't think I looked at my Teams page.
00:13:51  If that's where something should've been.
00:14:00  @time fizzie
00:14:01  Local time for fizzie is Wed Jan  6 00:14:00 2016
00:14:06  TOO LATE
00:14:07   we have some words there, "curerò procura" becomes "heal attorney" <-- google messes up the grammar, that should be "i will heal".  although it might be ungrammatical without an article... izabera?
00:14:35  oerjan: so it's "I will heal the attorney" except that "attorney" is a subject rather than an object?
00:14:55 -!- mauris has joined.
00:15:21  I, an attorney, will heal?
00:16:04  I'll attorney your wounds.
00:17:51  I was trying to learn Italian but sort of took a break due to exams
00:18:03  Why do I have 5 exams in 4 days? :(
00:18:28  ais523: italian doesn't have noun cases, but i think there should be a "la" in there.  except now i check, procura seems to refer to power, not actual persons
00:18:59  Taneb: because nowadays exams aren't scheduled for student convenience but for administrator convenience
00:19:13  Taneb: you're being pigeonholed as a student hth
00:19:13  I actually noticed a notable decline in timetable quality during my time at school
00:19:18  as timetables became more automated
00:19:38  shachaf: if you're taking exams, doesn't that kind-of make you a student by definition? I guess you could be an applicant
00:19:53  shachaf: I know Chromium folks also use "sgtm" a lot, so you definitely don't need to be a Google employee to be infected.
00:19:54  but most of the time, the purpose of exams is to gauge how much someone has learned, which implies that someone has been teaching them
00:19:58  https://www.chromium.org/glossary
00:19:59  shachaf, I am afraid that I must confess to being a student
00:20:23  sgml sgtm
00:20:24  fizzie: Did you know about https://cs.chromium.org/ ?
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00:20:46  ais523: It could be an exam for a professional certification or something.
00:21:15  shachaf: that's why I included "applicant" as the other possibility
00:21:22  shachaf: Yes.
00:21:27  ais523: Oh, I guess so.
00:21:40  fizzie: It's TG. CS is one of the best things.
00:23:01  shachaf: The Chromium one is lacking in layers.
00:23:27  Though the git views are okay.
00:27:51  fizzie: That page has a much better expansion of SGTM than the one I knew.
00:29:05  I didn't know Grok had been kind of open-sourced as "Kythe".
00:29:16  `? kythe
00:29:17  kythe? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:29:52  boily: I didn't either.
00:30:45  I don't know what that is
00:30:59  it means "drink" hth
00:31:32  tdnrh, bigwi.
00:32:31  bigwi?
00:32:52  But I'll Go With It.
00:38:35  zzo38: hezzo38. today I had a relapse, and I magicked with my coworkers.
00:38:54  I haven't magicked in a while
00:39:01  I avoid it by not owning any cards
00:39:03  (magiced? magicqued? maybe even a strong verb, and magunk?)
00:39:06  Or spending any money on it
00:39:23  Taneb: "jammed" hth
00:39:37  my bro gave me a nice one for Christmas/Birthday. my færies deck is even more annoying :D
00:40:17  Taneb: when are you visiting california to collect a bunch of cards twh
00:40:28  I haven't magicked in ages, although I try to stay up to date with it constantly
00:40:39  shachaf, who knows (tm)
00:40:45  I neither play nor stay up to date.
00:40:52  this is mostly because Wizards' design goals are sort-of the opposite of those needed to create a good game
00:41:14  (basically they try to rewrite the whole thing every six months)
00:41:15  You mean the design goal of making a lot of money forever?
00:41:20  I wonder if I can get my hands on a copy of Ashes. the atwork looks nice.
00:41:32  boily: Someone tried to play that with me.
00:41:36  shachaf: well they state it as, they want to keep the game fresh, so they shake it up repeatedly
00:41:38  But I complained a bunch and they got annoyed.
00:41:56  this is basically because it gets stale very quickly because they're iterating so fast that they don't have time to make a deep game
00:42:44  Is that how it works, now?
00:43:20  tswett: they even got rid of the core set, apparently because they couldn't work out who it was for
00:43:30  (answer: it was for people who wanted a well-tested and balanced game)
00:43:37  huh? like, 2k15 is the last core?
00:43:45  boily: Origins is.
00:43:46  boily: last core set is called "Magic Origins"
00:44:02  thwett, this523.
00:44:02  they changed their naming scheme for it for some reason
00:44:08  nonsense.
00:44:30  but the core sets haven't really been proper core sets for a while, because they've also been included in the philosophy of shaking things up
00:44:42  as opposed to trying to incrementally improve what they had
00:44:58  I like formats like Tiny Leaders. you have to think hard to build something worthwile and play it well.
00:45:02  hmm, I think this is why people like Legacy
00:45:10  boily: Tiny Leaders was solved IIRC, or mostly solved
00:45:22  NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
00:45:30  being basically Legacy but much more restricted, thus easier to work out the optimal play
00:45:50  I'm not familiar with Tiny Leaders.
00:46:13  tswett: it's Commander, but 50 card deck, and everything must have a CMC <=3.
00:46:53  you start with 25 hp, no rules about your commander doing a specific amount of damage, and it costs 2 colourless more each time you want to recast your commander.
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00:49:15  [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46087&oldid=46079 * Albedo * (+34) /* Bitwise operations */ pipe and ! rendering
00:49:41  I wonder what the most expensive Modern common cards are.
00:50:10  [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46088&oldid=46087 * Albedo * (+1) /* Global stack (gstack) instructions */
00:51:12  [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46089&oldid=46088 * Albedo * (+17) /* Global stack (gstack) instructions */
00:52:15  [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46090&oldid=46089 * Albedo * (+51) /* Arithmetic operations */
00:52:28  Looks like that'd be Serum Visions.
00:53:24  the joke is, serum visions isn't even a good card
00:53:27  just all the better ones got banned
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01:19:44  `wisdom
01:19:46  indonesia/Indonesia is a large island country in Asia and the world's most populous muslim country. Its major export is rayon textile from the Indonesian fnord.
01:20:19  something went wrong somewhere in that, but I can't pinpoint it.
01:22:30  `? fnord
01:22:31  ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:25:01  `ls
01:25:03  ​:-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ butwhatifichangesomething \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dict-words \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ loudly é \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:25:13  `cat
01:25:20  `cat cat
01:25:24  Meow~~  >^.^<
01:25:29  :D
01:25:44  No output.
01:27:29  `` cat cat
01:27:30  Meow~~  >^.^<
01:35:17 <\oren\> ``words --gaelic
01:35:18  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `words: not found
01:35:24 <\oren\> `words --gaelic
01:35:26  ghuil
01:35:30 <\oren\> `words --gaelic 10
01:35:31  sgàlla diseaglaide ghòrr teach bhuile miosrat teasadh laid h-inn craoirb
01:35:40 <\oren\> h-inn?
01:37:18 <\oren\> `` words --russian
01:37:21  ​электади
01:37:24 <\oren\> `` words --russian 10
01:37:27  ​асновомъ сстверяйте тькиепраштейские сакокладыге подвор полописы бабачившего ходингв прикоа хабастаю
01:39:36  as egregious Russian consonant clusters are, I highly doubt there are any words that begin with sstv.
01:39:55  `` words --french 10
01:39:57  wilit oaso impiusquerenceaux château touesourvi accompli hunt chémont ngit korfage
01:40:20 <\oren\> bhelloily
01:40:24  château et accompli are legit.
01:40:28  he\\oren\.
01:40:46  `` words --french 10
01:40:48  deki ductionn boursed rhumin aueniaisitabi cableite ble orons fsgt récieriazzo
01:41:03 <\oren\> fsgt?
01:41:23 <\oren\> ble is bleh
01:41:28  `words --norwegian 10
01:41:29  sparakvaltningen forskningsavgivninjune høgsklæringer udekstrinensjefene førinstingen øybaroleteneseriaste bombyråene floakk formedisjonsbeslut snøbråsilkene
01:42:02  hmm I should write that intercal library I wanted to write
01:42:21  coppro: make sure you avoid number clashes :-)
01:42:23 <\oren\> floakk!
01:42:45  there are still a few groups of 1000 left but I advise you to stick to a group of 100 if you can, it'll save space
01:42:46  ais523: no you see
01:42:47 <\oren\> `` words --dutch 10
01:42:48  Unknown option: dutch
01:42:57  . o O ( bombyråene sounds like something that is just a political mistake away from existing )
01:43:43 <\oren\> floakk sounds to be like a new, inventive swearword
01:43:58 * ais523 waits for the rest of coppro's sentence
01:44:04  a floakk is an edible pastry.
01:44:05  floakk obviously is a new and upcoming word describing all the overflowing sewers global warming will bring
01:44:14  ais523: the goal is to operand overload .4 to return a random number
01:44:28  haha
01:44:33  you still need some line numbers for that though :-)
01:44:44  what's .4 normally used for?
01:44:46  boily: i think you would be hard-pressed to get norwegians to eat something rhyming with kloakk hth
01:44:57  ais523: probably as a general-purpose register
01:45:06  no, it's one of the argument registers
01:45:12  used by stdlib
01:45:18  but they tend to be used in fairly consistent ways
01:45:27  oerjan: I think I can translate that without the help of any machine. bletch!
01:45:28  err no wait
01:45:30  for full xkcdness I guess you should overload #4
01:45:32  not .4, #4
01:45:36  yeah
01:45:41  `? fternooner
01:45:43  fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
01:45:51  so now what I'm wondering is whether you can put a CREATEd operator into an operand overload
01:46:04  strikes me as the only way to get nondeterministic overloads
01:46:26  my guess is no, although perhaps there's some way to make it work?
01:46:34  I need to redo that code anyway to work violin into it
01:46:49  oh, there's no reason it wouldn't work for a forward use
01:46:55  but what about a reverse assignment?
01:47:04  what about quantumly overloading it?
01:47:32  that's a CLC-INTERCAL thing which is more like multithreading than anything else
01:47:39  `! c-intercal DO READ OUT #4 DO GIVE UP
01:47:40  ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/c-intercal: not found
01:47:44  `! cintercal DO READ OUT #4 DO GIVE UP
01:47:51  ​   \ IV
01:48:31  `! cintercal DO .1 <- .1/#4 DO .1 <- #5 DO READ OUT #4 PLEASE GIVE UP
01:48:34  ICL277IYOU CAN ONLY DISTORT THE LAWS OF MATHEMATICS SO FAR \         ON THE WAY TO 1 \         CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT
01:48:45  oh it doesn't run with -v by default
01:48:50  need to try this locally
01:49:23  boily: i thought so too
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01:53:00  `? tea
01:53:01  tea? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:53:08  `? fentimans
01:53:09  fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack.
02:02:09  `?fternooner
02:02:11  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?fternooner: not found
02:02:16  `? fternooner
02:02:19  fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
02:03:02  `? nutritive
02:03:05  nutritive? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:03:30  `? Hexham
02:03:34  Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
02:03:44  `? beverage
02:03:47  beverage? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:03:56  `? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:03:58  ​¯\(°​_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:04:02  :D
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02:30:21  zgrep: they're not actually identical, although your client may accidentally convert between them when pasting
02:33:51  alas, with myndzi gone the reasons may no longer be obvious.
02:34:44  is it a combining overline vs. non-combining difference?
02:34:52  or some such
02:35:10  or some nonprintable within it maybe
02:35:24  the nonprintable
02:35:52  `` \? hutenosa | unidecode
02:35:54  No output.
02:36:33  probably would've been too long output either way
02:36:49  `? hutenosa
02:36:50  hutenosa? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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02:37:25  oh. unidecode doesn't pipe.
02:37:42  \o/
02:37:43  oh
02:37:44  give my myzinda
02:37:46  please
02:37:50            \o/
02:37:52                  \o/
02:37:55  vanila: SORRY
02:37:56  whyyy
02:38:01  crying face
02:38:03  `` \? z | xargs unidecode
02:38:05  ​[U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z] [U+003F QUESTION MARK] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+00AF MACRON] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+00AF MACRON]
02:38:13      \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ 
02:38:15  myzindi
02:38:17  mm, ZWSP
02:38:28  alas there is no myndzi
02:38:30  i don't think you need xargs.
02:38:33  why not
02:38:36  what happens ;
02:38:47  vanila: we get signal
02:39:26  someobedy set up us the bong
02:39:28  lol
02:39:30  oerjan: hm, I have a habit of doing  foo | xargs bar  instead of  bar "$(foo)"  for some reason
02:39:47  ah
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02:42:08  btw you all probably heard about this but someone did brainfu8ck in printf!
02:42:14  i was pretty impressed
02:42:18  the %n thing is ridiculous
02:42:38  i knew it could be used to start off code exec
02:42:50  but this guy did all the computation in a format string
02:44:02  vanila: I heard people reference it but didn't see the original
02:44:04  link?
02:44:51  sure
02:45:16  ?
02:45:19  https://github.com/HexHive/printbf
02:45:23  thanks
02:45:24  i have to find it that takes finite time
02:45:40  right, just "sure" is a weird way to express that so I was a little confused
02:45:55  I thought it might be that you were looking for the link but wasn't sure
02:46:00  but yeah i love these "found" computers
02:46:20  ROP is my favorite because it's like moss growing in the cracks of a wall
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02:47:58  vanila: I was messing about with them even before I'd heard of esolangs
02:48:06  called it "alternate programming"
02:48:10  thats so cool :D
02:48:18  but most of the things I looked at were very sub-TC
02:48:22  i don't know if i was befoer i heard about esolangs
02:48:25  like MS Paint
02:48:29  subTC is really interesting
02:48:54  (although now I'm wondering, what if you run it in monochrome mode so that the fill tool does patterns? still subTC but might be more powerful)
02:49:05  haha
02:49:06  nice
02:49:17  probably some modular arithmetic stuff becomes possible with paterns
02:50:30  oerjan: I believe it might.
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02:52:04  Hah, they're not identical! :D
02:52:25  `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:52:26  ​¯\(°_o)/¯ `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:52:42 -!- mauris_ has joined.
02:53:06  ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:54:17  `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:54:18  ​¯\(°_o)/¯ `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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02:54:49  oerjan: No, my client does not do that. HackEgo was using ¯\(°​_o)/¯ and I copied that.
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03:00:31  zgrep: oh hm right.  i was misremembering which way the wisdom goes.
03:03:44  today i had the sudden realization that "myndzi" is probably pronounced as/derived from "mind's eye"
03:04:22  (i'd been mentally pronouncing it as min-dzee AND I WON'T STOP)
03:05:59  ==mauris__
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03:12:58  hmm, that construction relies on printf reading the format string lazily
03:13:08  admittedly, most printfs will, there's no reason to scan it in advance
03:13:21  other than to prevent specifically that exploit
03:15:09  I also suspect it's sub-TC due to stack underflow
03:15:40  eventually printf will be reading arguments from stack locations that are before the start of the stack, and even if you have arbitrary control over memory, you still can't write to an unmapped address
03:21:11  "nginx rewrote their own version of printf() and removed “ %n ”"
03:21:22  haha, that's one way to avoid format string vulnerabilities :-)
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03:29:47  The SQL function "PRINTF" in SQLite also disables "%n"
03:32:06  (The internal code still implements it, it just disables it when the list of arguments is a list of dynamically-typed SQL values)
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05:28:15  I think I'll create an Esolangs community on Google+
05:28:19  In fact, I already did xD
05:28:37  I just published a short article/advertisement of the community on the Programming G+ community
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05:58:56  Do you have other ideas to make custom Magic: the Gathering cards or puzzle or variant rule or whatever else?
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06:22:16  Yay! Someon reshared my post on Brainfuck!
06:23:13  zzo38: one I have made: cost {G}, instant, effect "Look at the top three cards of your library. You may put a land card from among them onto the battlefield. Place the rest on top of your library in any order."
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06:28:50  ais523: OK thanks, what did you call it and do you think it is reasonable?
06:29:13  I haven't called it anything yet, and I think it's reasonable: the aim was to create a green cantrip-like spell to compete with the blue ones in Legacy
06:29:20  OK
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06:30:57  Did you make the database or card list file or whatever? Or even posted this idea anywhere else than right here right now?
06:31:55  Also, how can I do in Linux, I want to use the mail system but treat local mail differently from mail received remotely, and also to use a different SMTP server for sending than for receiving messages. For example I do not want the email address to contain local usernames, but if a local user types something like "mail user1" then it is a local username.
06:32:20  Make something stronger than Serum Visions but weaker than Ponder and have Wizards pick it up
06:32:24  Need something modern legal ;)
06:32:25  zzo38: I haven't posted most of my ideas online, that was the first time I posted one I think
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06:32:40  haavard: preordain is such a card, but it's also banned in modern
06:32:49  there's opt but it's even weaker than serum visions I think
06:35:07  One idea I had is "You may force target player to draw three cards" (a variant of Jace's Ingenuity, except that you can force other players to draw cards too, like Ancestral Recall but costs more and is abortable)
06:35:51  zzo38: that's worded "you may have target player draw three cards" I think
06:36:10  but the situations in which you'd abort such a spell are very rare
06:36:20  so I doubt Wizards would print it because it'd mean extra clicks in Magic Online
06:40:40  I don't expect Wizards of the Coast to really print any of my stuff; it is mainly for use in custom games
06:50:56  Ancestral Recall was originally designed to allow you to force opponent to draw cards as well as you (although it can now be used on teammates too; when it was designed there was no team game). Many cards only work on you and I don't like it much
06:53:34  I do now have the service to post the comments of my custom cards on the webpage, by use of web browser or curl. However, these custom cards are also available as plain text and SQLite database (the SQLite database includes the user comments too).
06:53:36  ais523: oh, that's a nice card. if it was a sorcery rather than an instant, then it looks plausibly printable. 
06:54:25  zzo38: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/pointcounterpoint-targeted-card-draw-2012-03-23 http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/pointcounterpoint-targeted-card-draw-2012-03-28
06:54:26  Why don't you write comment on my card yet? We should put it there in the place so that also other people even if on different IRC or not at all can also to read/write comment same including to reply
06:54:29  zzo38: there are some blue cards that can have anyone draw cards, but they aren't optional (as in "may") usually, and they're rare because it's not worth the extra text over just "Draw three cards."
06:54:35  zzo38: do you want an instant or a sorcery?
06:54:43  for card draw, instant sometimes has extra cost
06:54:53  zzo38: those are articles by R&D arguing the case for and against card draw spells having targets, respectively
06:55:04  The card I described is an instant, and has the same cost as Jace's Ingenuity, it is what I designed it as.
06:56:14  Look it the file to see
06:57:20  zzo38: there's Inspiration; Deep Analysis; Opportunity each of them lets you choose any player
07:03:16  Please look my card (there are some new ones) and write comment too
07:08:35  How about a language that is ENTIRELY monads
07:08:56  Not like haskell, which is AFAICT functions with a side of monads (used for side effects)
07:09:03  Just pure, monady goodness
07:09:09  Note: I don't actually understand monads
07:10:37  functions are a monad too hth
07:10:48  oerjan: Oh right
07:10:59  Shit
07:11:07  xD
07:11:36  also, a lot of the other monads are wrappers over functions
07:11:47  @unmtl State s a
07:11:47  s -> (a, s)
07:13:35  oerjan: Exactly. The idea was to restrict monads.
07:14:13  @help unmtl
07:14:13  unroll mtl monads
07:14:50  oerjan: it's not so much a wrapper, as identifying functions that happen to have a monadic form, isn't it?
07:15:37  ais523: it's a wrapper for type inference to find the right arguments
07:15:42  @src State
07:15:43  Source not found. Are you typing with your feet?
07:15:46  @src StateT
07:15:47  Source not found. Do you think like you type?
07:15:55  and @src is reliable as always
07:16:39  also, it's ambiguous:
07:17:03  @unmtl ReaderT s (Writer s) a
07:17:04  s -> (a, s)
07:17:14  same function, different monad.
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07:58:49  ais523: I looked at part of the first one so far
07:59:14  zzo38: the first one agrees with you (although possibly has different reasoning), the secondd one disagrees
07:59:30  However as I have shown there are even more possibilities
07:59:51  And I think both kind of card are OK to have in the game.
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08:04:30  I do believe it should be targeted by default though, although nevertheless with many different kind of card available can make the game more diverse.
08:04:58  lol, there are joke mosquitos
08:06:16  Puzzles are also one point in such diversity, but not the only reason
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08:20:34  I looked at the two versions of "Raging Centaur" in the second article. They say many people prefer the first, although to me I prefer the second, not only because 1 more toughness but there may be possibility of advantage of the ability (which they even admit). However, the second version does have a clear disadvantage in Commander.
08:23:03  zzo38: because it's harder to fit into decks?
08:23:19  if you're playing BG anyway it's better I think
08:25:40  So back to my idea about 3-sign numbers for no apparent reason
08:26:01  hppavilion[1]: have you seen quaternions?
08:26:05  ~x, $x, &x. Or something like that.
08:26:07  they have 8 signs though
08:26:13  ais523: Yes, hasn't everyone?
08:26:15  Yes, if you are playing both black and green it is better even in Commander.
08:26:33  hppavilion[1]: I'm pretty sure at least one person hasn't
08:26:36  If you are not playing black then you cannot use it in Commander.
08:26:39  ais523: I'm going for a simple extension of the naturals
08:27:17  ais523: Well yes, we're excluding Roger when we discuss this sort of thing.
08:27:20  do three signs include +?
08:27:24  *shudder*
08:27:43  lifthrasiir: It's just notation, so you could say it does, or doesn't, or that it doesn't matter in the slightest.
08:30:02  hppavilion[1]: what rules do your system obey? for example, is ~0 = $0 = &0 or not?
08:30:35  lifthrasiir: Yes, 0 is signless (or all signs, or its own sign)
08:30:47  lifthrasiir: The craziest thing is that this actually has a use somewhere
08:31:08  what is ~1 + $2?
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08:31:24  lifthrasiir: Still working on that xD
08:31:25  the number system is meaningless without governing rules
08:31:32  heh.
08:32:04  Specifically, hyperoperations. m[~4]b = m log b, whereas m[&4]b = the mth root of b
08:32:12  (Why I chose m and b, I have no idea)
08:32:40  And m[$4]b = m[4]b = m**b
08:33:11  lifthrasiir: I think I'll start with unary operations
08:34:02  &$1 = ~1, $&1 = ~1, ~$1 = &1, $~1 = &1, ~&1 = $1, &~1 = $1
08:34:19  And $$1 = &1, &&1 = ~1, and ~~1 = $1
08:35:25  Hopefully, that's consistent if we substitute x for 1
08:35:33  so, basically N x Z_3
08:35:46  myname: ?
08:36:09  m
08:36:11  Did I accidentally just invent modular arithmetic with funny notation? xD
08:37:05  myname: since 0 is signless, not exactly equivalent
08:37:25  well, isomorphic
08:37:35  ~&$1 = ~~1 = $1
08:37:43  myname: how does addition work in N × Z₃?
08:37:54  ~&$1 = ~$&1, of course
08:38:00  hppavilion[1]: afair there is only one group with 3 elements
08:38:15  ais523: depends. couöd be element wise
08:38:41  myname: Um? Umlaut?
08:38:42  right, but that wouldn't act very like normal addition
08:38:53  could
08:38:58  in particular, subtraction wouldn't really work at all
08:39:02  ö is right next to l
08:39:06  myname: also, if it *were* Z_3, then some sign should behave differently from others (and that would be the identity) but it doesn't seem so
08:39:09  What does x mean in N x Z₃?
08:39:38  lifthrasiir: oh, right
08:39:45  hppavilion[1]: cross product
08:39:46  ais523: But I probably wouldn't do traditional subtraction; I'd do subtraction adjusted for my weird 3-sign system
08:39:49  Ah?
08:40:02  hppavilion[1]: I was basically asing what addition meant
08:40:07  myname: not cartesian product?
08:40:20  ah, yeah
08:40:33  myname: I'm tempting to think it as an extension of GF(4), but not sure, I don't know enough group theory after all
08:41:04  Maybe (should) $$x = x, ~~x = x, &&x = x
08:41:35  (The above was a failed attempt to use Haskell-like syntax in speech)
08:43:04  ais523: I never said it was a group or a ring or anything; just that it's numeric and has 3 signs
08:43:32  hppavilion[1]: well yes, you still want to define addition and subtractoin in a mostly addition/subtraction-like way, though, don't you?
08:43:33  It'd probably have its own entirely alien set of operations
08:44:03  ais523: Addition if I can, but subtraction doesn't make sense because x-y = x+(-y)
08:44:26  hppavilion[1]: x+y-y=x
08:44:41  well, you just don't have - then
08:44:41  ais523: Yes, that too
08:44:50  myname: Exactly
08:44:53  x ~ y, x $ y
08:45:00  x & y
08:45:01  So it should be more the $, &, and ~ subtraction-like operations
08:45:08  Dammit, you beat me xD
08:46:31  This will all make hyperoperations much more difficult, not having - xD
08:46:44  how so?
08:46:44  And just /imagine/ the order theory 0.o
08:46:59  myname: Look up the definition of the hyperoperations and note the -
08:47:18  These 3-sign numbers, btw, are JUST for the hyperoperations index; not for the operands
08:47:22  (for now)
08:51:26  http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2253 it's funny 'cause it's true
09:04:03  It looks like the card "Cleansing" even allow you to pay life to protect opponent's lands too.
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09:33:03  How exactly does Cut the Tethers work? Does first the active player choose which spirits they own to pay for, possibly activates mana abilities and makes all the payments, then the other players make choices after those payments are done, and finally spirits are returned to their owner's hands?
09:33:45  And what happens if some permanents become Spirits, or new Spirits are put into play (eg. by Forbidden Orchard), or some Spirits change ownership while paying?
09:35:05  Let me to see the rules to see if it mention its working
09:35:43  As far as I know it doesn't seem to mention "for each" effects but I may be misremembering
09:36:25  Even if not "for each" specifically, there are lots of general rules that may be covering this.
09:37:54  The rules ought to define what "for each" means in order to make it clear.
09:38:13  There's rule 101.4 and stuff like that
09:42:20  Rule 101.4 describes APNAP order, although it also gives an example, which may be of use.
09:45:06  Does rule 608.2g apply?
09:47:32  It still fails to explain exactly what "for each" means though
09:48:25  zzo38: I'm asking on efnet/#mtgrules currently
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09:52:46  Maybe it is like this: the active player chooses which Spirits to avoid returning, and then the nonactive player does, and then each player who chose to avoid returning can activate mana abilities, and then the mana is paid, and then all are returned simultaneously. I am not sure though; it may be wrong.
09:55:10  (What I mean is that before that, it is determined which permanents are Spirits and all of those ones are selected)
09:56:18  But it just seems unclear to me.
09:56:51  zzo38: that would be very hard to imagine, because my payments can influence not only the set of spirits, but also how the opponent can activate mana abilities and/or how much mana he can get from them
09:57:03  zzo38: so I don't see how you could make all the choices before paying
09:58:43  efnet/SFT says, without referring to rules, that first the set of spirits is locked in, then the active player makes all choices and does all payment, then the other players do all payment, then the other spirits remembered are returned
09:59:17  Cleansing is, incidentally, more horrible.
09:59:59  [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46091&oldid=45679 * Rdebath * (+1172) /* Shortest known "hello world" program. */ new section
10:00:39  I did realize that the set of Spirits must be locked in first, as the rules seem to mean that.
10:00:43  ais523: care to weigh in? The question is how resolving Cut the Tethers works, since when paying mana abilities, the set of Spirits may change.
10:00:53  let me look at that card
10:01:38  " How exactly does Cut the Tethers work? Does first the active player choose which spirits they own to pay for, possibly activates mana abilities and makes all the payments, then the other players make choices after those payments are done, and finally spirits are returned to their owner's hands?"
10:02:18  I'd say you iterate over the spirits in turn in the usual order (I forget what that is) and for each spirit, when you come to it in the iteration, you can pay {3}, if you don't and it's still on the battlefield it bounces
10:02:34  not sure though, don't have the rules memorized
10:02:39  clearly we should be asking coppro about this
10:03:24  (what's the most ridiculous possible situation? I'm trying to figure out a way for a card to become a Spirit as the result of paying a mana ability)
10:03:43  (which probably involves sacrificing an animated enchantment that's disabling the creature type somehow)
10:04:32  Since rule 610.3 and Banishing Light, you can even have new spirits enter the battlefield when activating a mana ability.
10:05:19  ais523: I think the set of Spirits must be initially locked in, and that choices are made in APNAP order; but again I don't know. However, even so, the rest seem unclear to me
10:05:25  ais523: sacrifice a liquimetal-coated Lignify to a Krark-Clan Ironworks to turn a card back to a spirit
10:05:27  ooh, you use opalescence to animate a banishing light, then sacrifice it to phyrexian altar?
10:05:39  heh, we had much the same idea there
10:06:08  ais523: sacrifice a liquimetal-coated Banishing Light to return a Spirit to the battlefield
10:06:56  oh, there's a Phyrexian Altar? that might be even better! I was using Ashnod's Altar in my examples
10:07:14  although Ashnod's Altar is cheaper apparently
10:07:19  because it's uncommon
10:07:31  There may even be situations in the game where you would want to ensure to do something during a mana step in order to avoid state-based actions that would otherwise occur in between the mana abilities being activated.
10:07:40  tbf ashnod's altar is probably better too
10:07:52  {2} is better than one mana of any colour IMO
10:07:55  sure, Ashnod's Altar is more powerful in a real game
10:09:22  ais523: there are also cycles of land that have mana abilities that sacrifice that land, which can (in theory, not likely in real games) affect how much mana an opponent can pay with Exotic Orchard or Felwar Stone
10:09:47  s/Felwar/Fellwar/
10:10:10  ok, let's ask coppro
10:10:12  coppro: ^
10:10:16  or reflecting pool
10:10:30  actually there are quite a lot of effects like that
10:10:40  Reflecting Pool is on your own mana
10:10:58  still, same problem for this example
10:11:00  but of course Ahnod's Altar or Krark-Clan Ironworks can directly sacrifice lands or mana-producing artifacts
10:11:14  although cut the tethers doesn't care about colour, we can make it care by sacrificing the last colour-producing land
10:11:23  (which might be, say, a dryad arbor)
10:11:42  ais523: color matters because if I no longer own a land that produces any _colored_ mana, then the opponent's Exotic Orchard can't produce mana at all
10:11:48  yes, that's what I said
10:12:19  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befana  YOU PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THIS?!?
10:12:21  WTF?!
10:13:14  let me look this up, there were rules clearly stating that at least for paying the mana costs of a spell or ability, you choose how to pay for everything first, then make the payments all together, but the payments have to be possible, or something
10:13:21  With Cleansing I suppose it might work by first locking the set of all lands, and then the active player chooses which to protect (they don't have to be his own) and pays, and then the nonactive player chooses which to protect (he may choose ones that are already protected) and pays, and then all unprotected lands are destroyed simultaneously. Is that it? I don't know
10:13:41  now I'm trying to figure out a set of langs which can't collectively all be tapped for mana, but which can individually all be tapped for mana
10:15:40  ais523: there are lots of lands that can produce _more_ mana if you sacrifice them, but you can still get fewer mana from them
10:16:14  ah right, I didn't mean like that
10:17:16  These kind of thing are reasons why I would intend to design the new card game by writing the rules as a literate computer program with mathematical definitions included, and then the cards also have computer codes associated with them. This way can make the rules much more clear!
10:17:42  I have had thoughts about trading card game design
10:18:12  that are designed to eliminate memorized information (i.e. all information about the gamestate is conveyed by the position of the cards), and yet be reasonably flexible in how the rules work
10:18:58  (I would also probably intend to design a new literate programming system for this purpose, one thing being to arrange sections in the way which is more suitable for this kind of document. Also probably it will compile into a new VM called CardVM made for this purpose, so it is even a new VM too)
10:21:55  there's strange lands like Lake of the Dead
10:24:50  ais523: That does look like reasonable I suppose, although it doesn't seem to address the kind of issues that I address?
10:25:11  zzo38: well there's nothing inherently open-source or closed-source about rules
10:25:54  it'd also have a streamlined computer interface compared to Magic because most of the decisions you could make would be small numbers of choices from large sets, rather than large numbers of choices from small sets
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10:31:57  Maybe you miss the point. While these things I am suggesting would be open-source, it is not the point I am trying to make.
10:33:08  zzo38: you think they should be in a programming language not natural language so that they're clearer to enforce
10:33:09  ais523: right, it should somehow make sure not to have to ask for choices from both players very frequently that are irrelevant for the game most of the time, such as the order triggers go to the stack, the order objects simultanously entering a zone get their timestamps, which replacement effect is applied when there is more than one possible, etc.
10:33:20  \ such as the order triggers go to the stack, the order objects simultanously entering a zone get their timestamps, which replacement effect is applied when there is more than one possible, etc.
10:33:21  zzo38: but Hearthstone and MTGO both work like that, just the rules are closed-souce
10:33:27  *closed-source
10:34:06  Apparently there are lots of lands from before modern that sacrifice themselves for mana, and I didn't really know about them.
10:34:07  ais523: I can see that, and yet it is a kind of problem, since then it is difficult to know the rules of the game. I don't mean enforcing the rules, I mean even just knowing the rules!
10:34:13  b_jonas: probably the biggest choice I made was to not have replacement or triggered abilities; rather, all abilities are activated (for drawback abilities your opponent can activate them for you)
10:34:50  Sixth edition has a cycle of uncommon lands like Svyelunite Temple that tap for M, or tap and sacrifice for MM; 
10:34:50  also activated abilities that work from the graveyard only work on the top card in the graveyard
10:35:15  That idea about the top card of graveyard I have actually had too
10:35:59  Odyssey has a cycle of uncommon lands like Seafloor Debris that tap for M, or tap and sacrifice for one mana of any color.
10:36:07  instead of death triggers, basically you just activate the card once it reaches the graveyard
10:36:28  But some of my other ideas would include that the game is design to work whether or not a computer is in use, and that CardVM is completely independent of the user interface and server and client and so on; it only implements game rules and nothing else.
10:36:38  Invasion has a cycle of common lands like Ancient Spring that tap for M or tap and sacrifice for DE in allied colors.
10:37:14  ais523: Maybe you may also intend that the stack (if any) is only for cards and not activated abilities? It seem to fit what you have said earlier
10:37:19  I'm trying to understand what's being discussed here
10:37:27  Are you designing a new card game?
10:37:28  And apart from these three cycles, there are several individual lands like this: Archaeological Dig is an uncommon in invasion that taps for 1 or taps and sacrifices for one mana of any one color.
10:37:42  zzo38: yes, in order to activate an ability you move the card itself to the stack
10:37:54  haavard: we're discussing potential designs that new card games could use
10:37:56  Crystal Vein is a strange land that taps and sacrifices for 2.
10:38:17  ais523: Ah, OK, yes that works too
10:38:38  and the ability tells you where to put the card once it resolves
10:38:51  you can whether it's a cast or an ability by where the card is on the stack
10:39:07  There are so many cards in Magic and I'm learning about them in a slow pace, and can't keep up with how fast they're published.
10:39:11  Such as if it is placed forward or turned right do you mean?
10:39:14  (this also means that most activated abilities can only be cast in response to something, which adds strategy to the ame)
10:39:14  I see. And why is b_jonas and zzo38 looking for sac-lands? :P
10:39:27  zzo38: no, it's based on whether it's the bottom of the stack or higher
10:39:45  also you can only respond to your opponent's actions, not your own (this greatly reduces the number of priority passes)
10:39:56  Yes, that is something to do too
10:40:09  They are interesting ideas
10:41:21  you can prevent your opponent activating abilities by just not doing anything, but this is probably a bad idea because you're basically giving your opponent free attacks
10:41:32  haavard: I'm looking for sac lands because some of those seem to be practically usable so I should buy them, but also they are lands with tap mana abilities that sacrifice a permanent immediately, which has strange rules consequences, somewhat similarly to Krark-Clan Ironworks, Ashnod's Altar, Phyrexian Altar. 
10:42:02  Yes I like this you can design such card game too
10:42:36  What kind of strange rules consequences are these, b_jonas?
10:43:03  (At least the latter ones don't have a tap in them, so they don't trigger "a land is tapped for" rules, although their abilities can still be copied to a land with Quicksilver Elemental or Experiment Kraj and so they can affect Fellwar.)
10:43:43  Mind you, there's also Phyrexian Tower, which is a land that taps and sacrifices any creature for mana, so it's ruleswise the most horrible.
10:44:12  the phyrexians are like that
10:44:49  haavard: strange rules consequences because you can often activate mana abilities in strange times, like while a player is resolving a spell or ability, or when paying for attack restrictions. 
10:44:55  Should get Datatog in here.
10:45:00  b_jonas: That means you can even sacrifice a creature during a mana step
10:45:13  Ah, I see..
10:45:22  But I looked up those common and uncommon lands because I should consider buying some of them. They are cheaper than the Vivid lands.
10:45:46  If you can active multiple mana ability, even to avoid state-based action in between if doing it during a mana step
10:45:59  b_jonas: so say you have yet another æther vortex in play, and you sacrifice a panglacial wurm on top of your library to phyrexian tower to pay for itself
10:46:03  Sort of like how Selvala also has weird interactions if she fails to produce enough mana
10:46:32  haavard: I think the public Magic rules question answering services ended up vetoing selvala + panglacial wurm questions after a bit
10:48:08  That's the one where you search your library, right?
10:48:28  And you reveal at the same time, and end up having to reverse everything etc.
10:48:52  haavard: it's the one that can be cast from your library while you're searching it
10:48:56  I would completely rewrite the rules for what can be reversed and what happens if impossible
10:49:30  actually the main complexity here is that selvala lets you draw a card while you're searching your library, so you need to have kept the library in order during the search
10:49:50  Doing so requires introducing the concepts of "entropy" and "transactional controller"
10:49:53  (luckily you can't draw the panglacial wurm itself because I think it's on the stack at that point? which also answers my æther vortex question)
10:50:26  ais523: It seem clear to me how it works, although outside of a puzzle it may be less clear what to do about it I suppose
10:51:23  And also "automatically losing on time"
10:52:23  well in a tournament, you play 5 turns after time runs out, it's a draw if nobody wins in that time
10:52:34  that's because it's normally very hard to determine who's responsible for the game going slowly
10:52:48  with all the priority passes involved
10:54:45  That is also unimportant in puzzles, although I happen to just like the puzzles much more than actual play game anyways
10:57:46  I don't really like the gameplay either, I just like the mental exercise of thinking about the game
10:57:53  mostly in terms of hypothetical mental deckbuilding
10:58:21  Look at my puzzles and see if you can figure it out!
10:58:58  zzo38: puzzles?
11:00:32  Yes I made many puzzles of Magic: the Gathering. (Other people have also made many)
11:00:51  Neat, got a link? Sounds like fun
11:01:41  Yes. They are http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.1 up to puzzle.6 (although puzzle.1 isn't very good, the rest are better)
11:02:42  (You can look up card texts on Gatherer or something else)
11:03:01  Do you know rules of Magic: the Gathering? If you do not, then it is difficult.
11:03:44  I'm pretty familiar with the rules, yeah
11:03:55  I'll check these out later when I'm off work :)
11:04:16  OK
11:05:51  I also made up several custom cards (none are used in the puzzles though, nor are these custom cards necessarily fixed), in case you have interest in such thing as that too
11:10:35  I don't really find custom Magic interesting unless it's joke cards or something like that
11:13:10  I did make joke cards too but I keep it in a separate file
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11:30:11  " so say you have yet another æther vortex in play, and you sacrifice a panglacial wurm on top of your library to phyrexian tower to pay for itself" -- I don't think that works, because you have to move the card to the stack before deciding how to pay for it.
11:30:29  b_jonas: right, I noticed that later
11:30:49  what's this "selvala"?
11:31:38  " (luckily you can't draw the panglacial wurm itself because I think it's on the stack at that point? which also answers my æther vortex question)" - ah good
11:32:31  b_jonas: selvala has a mana ability where everyone reveals-and-draws a card and you add mana to your mana pool equal to the number of lands revealed
11:32:51  which IMO is one of the worst mistakes from a rules perspective ever made
11:32:54  in M:tG
11:33:26  might be the number of nonlands revealed, can't remember which, but lands makes more sense really
11:33:38  oh, Selvala: Explorer Returned from Conspiracy?
11:33:43  yes
11:35:06  Why is that much worse than mana abilities that let you sacrifice any creature or any artifact? Sacrificing an artifact can cause permanents to return to play, lots of characteristic changes, and also players losing the game.
11:35:56  In my opinion the problem is the rules about rewinding, which could be fixed much better, and avoid some of these problems
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11:37:44  b_jonas: because you can't tell with certainty how much mana you're going to get
11:37:55  like, you could cast llanowar elves or something like that with only selvala to pay for it
11:38:15  Oh, I see, the problem is that it adds a variable amount of mana to your pool, so you can't decide how to pay and then do all the payments.
11:38:16  then turns out you get 0 mana off the mana ability, but now everyone has looked at the top card of their library
11:38:18  right
11:38:49  IMO that ability should have been restricted to being cast at instant speed
11:39:02  there's really no reason to be able to do it at mana ability speed; the cases where that matters are really obscure
11:39:02  Yes, that is a problem, but it isn't a big problem, in the sense that it can be fixed easily with a rules change on 605.1 to turn that ability not a mana ability.
11:39:27  ais523: they can still fix that by changing the comprehensive rules or the oracle text of that card
11:39:29  (some kind of mana leak effect with split second would do it)
11:39:32  I would do very differently fixed
11:39:34  b_jonas: right, and I hope they do
11:40:17  although you can get variable mana payments even without selvala, can't you? sacrifice something that doubles mana output as a means of generating mana
11:40:26  the difference there is that it's not a random factor, you know in advance that it's going to happen
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11:40:49  If you don't have enough mana, the player in the process of casting the spell concedes if he has not already seen the top card of his opponent's library.
11:41:00   That is how I would write the rules
11:41:05  Have there already been a way, before Selvala, to find out about hidden information during a mana ability? I think there probably has been, but I wonder how.
11:41:44  Even if it's a mana ability where you know exactly what mana it will give.
11:42:03  b_jonas: mana abilities that draw cards as a side effect while lantern of insight is in play
11:42:11  (there are a few mana filterers that also draw cards)
11:42:15  There are some mana ability to draw cards, and there are also replacement effects that can cause various stuff
11:43:11  ais523: (a) what mana ability draws cards as a side effect, and (b) no, I think there's a specific rule for drawing cards to stop this,
11:43:39  (The Gatherer rulings tell you not to look at those cards, although the rules of the game seem to say no such thing; my proposed way of fixing the rules would be that if you do choose to look at the card that makes it unreversible and forces you to concede if there is no other possibility)
11:43:42  401.5 although that's restricted.
11:43:52  b_jonas: chromatic sphere
11:44:12  rulings say it's a mana ability (which makes sense, as it has no targets and generates mana), but it draws a card
11:44:34  Ah right, Chromatic Sphere.
11:45:31  401.5 covers only the time while a spell or ability is being played, which might be enough, becuse those are the times when a transaction that may have to be reversed is active.
11:45:59  And 401.6 says the same about the top card of the library
11:46:01  Such thing may also force the transactional controller's teammates to concede, depending on situation, in my proposed rule changes.
11:46:43  ais523: I think because of 401.5 and 401.6 that example won't cause a player to learn any hidden information while casting a spell, 
11:47:04  although you're right that it can cause information to be learnt while you're paying for an effect, but in that case it's not a problem.
11:47:28  b_jonas: so what if you use two chromatic spheres on the same spell
11:47:36  with lantern of insight in play
11:47:43  does the opponent get to see the second card you draw, and if so, when?
11:47:43  Anyone who deliberate takes advantage of these rules that force someone to concede or to help his teammates, is disqualified.
11:48:00  ais523: no, because of 401.6
11:48:23  but normally if you draw two cards with a "reveal the top card of your library" effect in play, the opponent sees both
11:49:59  ais523: oh, do you mean whether they see the spell later, after all the reversible stuff ends?
11:50:16  I don't know
11:50:24  b_jonas: right
11:50:55  I'm vaguely reminded of the questions involving unexpectedly having a sylvan library trigger when you brainstormed earlier in the turn
11:50:59  although I forget what the setup is
11:51:28  (it suddenly becomes relevant which cards you drew off the brainstorm, which the opponent isn't entitled to know and yet you have to prove)
11:52:02  I'm sure nobody gets to see the cards _during_ playing any spell or ability, even if that's not the spell or ability relevant for paying, because there's nested Panglacials involved.
11:52:29  :(
11:52:41  My exam this morning (on linear optimization and game theory) did not go well
11:52:51  Largely because I forgot how to do both linear optimization and game theory
11:52:52  By the way, even though Panglacial used to look really scary to me, I'm starting to think it doesn't really cause any serious rules problems that you wouldn't have otherwise.
11:53:14  the only real influence it has is that you can't reorder your library while searching it
11:53:51  Also with my propsed rules: If an action that involved a library being shuffled must be rewound, what happens depends on the history of the game.
11:54:20  are there any mana abilities that cause a player to shuffle their library?
11:54:21  ais523: yes, and also that the cards you found when searching stay in the library (in the same place) until something actually causes you to move them.
11:54:55  ais523: Lich's Mirror I think
11:55:09  b_jonas: haha, beautiful
11:55:14  (sorry)
11:55:17  that screws things up much more than just the library shuffle I think
11:55:23  why?
11:55:29  it still doesn't cause to reveal any information
11:55:38  well it also shuffles your hand and all your permanents into your library and draws you seven cards
11:56:05  which is a pretty screwy effect for a mana ability to have
11:56:08  even regardless of mana abilities causing players to lose as a side effect (eg. by saccing a Platinum Angel), it has always been the case that players can leave the game at basically any time by conceding
11:56:31  why is it a screwy effect?
11:56:47  just a large change to the gamestate, there's a lot of zone changes involved
11:56:48  as in, more screwy than just sacrificing permanents
11:56:57  although admittedly most of them can be done individually (sacrifice, card draw)
11:57:10  wait, card draw?
11:57:12  oh damn
11:57:24  oh right, card draw
11:57:27  like with Chromatic Sphere
11:57:35  hmm
11:58:14  all that while you're still searching your library and you cast a Panglacial?
11:58:26  as in, you move cards to your library while searching?
11:58:29  this is probably the only way to move a card from your graveyard to your hand at mana ability speed though
11:58:57  b_jonas: hmm yes, enlarging the library mid-search is a little screwy
11:59:09  not counting reverting a move from the hand to the graveyard?
11:59:52  right, that doesn't really count.
11:59:53  hmm
11:59:56  crazy
12:00:35  so let's see: I have lich's mirror in play, play a card that lets me search for (say) two lands, I find one, cast panglacial wurm by paying my last point of life to generate mana, panglacial wurm's on the stack but the land I found ends up in my hand naturally, then I find another land that was previously in my graveyard
12:00:44  or does that not work? and if so, why not?
12:01:14  when searching, do you do panglacial wurm casting before or after you find things, or both? before makes the most sense rules-wise
12:01:41  ais523: no, you don't lose from 0 life until state-based actions are ran
12:01:54  oh right
12:02:00  any way to lose faster than that?
12:02:09  (other than conceding which would disrupt the rest of the "combo")
12:02:11  hmm
12:03:31  dunno
12:03:45  you could lose a Platinum Angel, but that might not be enough for anything
12:04:09  maybe I was wrong and you can't lose the game immediately from a mana ability, other than by conceding?
12:04:17  (in comprehensive rules)
12:05:29  Is there anything like AWK for working with binary data?
12:05:48  ah
12:05:53  ais523: Forbidden Crypt
12:05:55  Taneb: perl with use open IO=>':bytes' is pretty close
12:06:22  b_jonas: that works I think
12:06:25  ais523: my goal with this is 70% making my friends look at me funny
12:06:32  replacement effect so it copies the speed of the card draw
12:06:35  and possibly Nefarious Lich if you can somehow get damage dealt during
12:06:37  I guess I could use strings of 1s and 0s
12:06:53  Taneb: well that'd be good for making your friends look at you funny
12:07:18  Taneb: is your data aligned on bytes, or is it a bitstream?
12:07:19  can you deal damage while activating mana abilities?
12:07:30  boily: it's aligned on 108-bit chunks
12:07:37  b_jonas: I believe some ways to do so yes
12:09:10  Some mana abilities deal damage to their controller
12:09:32  (This damage may be redirected)
12:09:59  Taneb: that might depend on which implementation of awk you take, but for some awk it is definitely possible, because http://pts.szit.bme.hu/muzcat-mini-latest.tar.gz handles binary data and has a gawk version
12:10:23  Taneb: eep.
12:11:43  hmm
12:11:47  I might actually be wrong
12:12:04  maybe the gawk version doesn't actually work.
12:12:17  I think it'd be fine for me to use strings of 1s and 0s
12:13:09  There's a compile_gawk.sh but it's not mentioned in the README and it doesn't seem to be actually supported in muzcat.c so I don't think it works.
12:13:13  I'll have to ask PTS about this.
12:14:01  zzo38: oh right
12:16:21  The issue is I want to do bitwise logic on these to some extent
12:17:43  Oooh, Gawk supports that!
12:18:31  zzo38: let me recap. while resolving a tutor, you cast a Panglacial from your library, and to pay for it, you tap a Skyshroud Forest, replace its damage with Nefarious Lich, mirror the loss with Lich's Mirror, and that gets cards into your library.
12:18:35  Wait wait
12:20:30  Lich's Mirror has you shuffle all permanents you own into your library? So if I am so gracious as to Bazaar Trader a Lich's Mirror to an opponent, he can use it repeatedly to replace game loss?
12:20:37  That's nice of Lich's Mirror.
12:20:50 -!- boily has quit (Quit: LOCKPICK CHICKEN).
12:20:50  Although and("1110", "1011") prints 82
12:20:55  I'm not entirely sure what's going on
12:20:56  It doesn't cause any rules problem, just wondering.
12:21:18  82 in binary'd be 1010010 right?
12:22:32  brb
12:22:35  Taneb: yes, but the and function in awk operates on numbers, and just like perl, awk automatically converts strings to numbers by interpreting them as decimal, unless they have a 0x or something
12:22:40  Taneb: 1110 & 1011 in decimal *is* 82
12:22:50  Aaaargh
12:23:06  oh dear...
12:23:10  I didn't want to know this
12:23:11  Right
12:23:14  I see what I'm doing now
12:23:25  awk has a variable like perls' $# but BACKWARDS, controlling conversion from number to string
12:23:48  no wait
12:23:49  it doesn't 
12:23:50  whew
12:24:11  CONVFMT of gawk is just the same as $# of perl: it controls converting numbers to strings
12:24:15  still scary enough
12:24:16  but less so
12:25:11  although apparently locales might be involved, depending on moon phase and stuff
12:25:16  I don't want to know the details
12:25:33  anyway, in simple cases, auto-conversion from string to integer in awk will read decimal
12:25:42  (I don't generally do awk)
12:26:17  The man says it always just does strtod, but I can't get it to accept hexadecimal floats for some reason.
12:27:06  ais523: wait wait
12:27:38  fizzie: does strtod do hexfloats on your system? (and does it depend on compiler flags?)
12:28:02  ais523: My 'man strtod' claims it does, but I didn't verify that.
12:28:28  C11 strtod certainly is supposed to.
12:28:34  (As is the C99 one, I think.)
12:28:35  parsing some things you previously didn't parse is a backwards compat change
12:29:25  ais523: wait, if Panglacial isn't involved, does this mean that while paying the costs of a spell you're playing, you may have to shuffle your library in such a way that most of its cards are still hidden, but that you can revert the shuffling if the playing fails?
12:29:31  I vaguely recall that it might've been a C99 addition.
12:29:37  that's technically possible, but would be very ugly to do in practice.
12:30:03  b_jonas: I guess yes, you could set off a shuffle and draw while playing a spell
12:30:06  probably you'd postpone physically shuffling the library till later
12:30:25  then activate selvala (who was under a banishing light) /after/ that and discover you didn't have enough mana :-)
12:30:49  you'd have to shuffle immediately because you need to randomize the top card of your library for the lich's mirror draw and for selvala's ability
12:30:54  ais523: you don't need Selvala, just a player conceding can be enough to cause you to revert the stuff
12:31:09  selvala lets you pull it off in a 2p game
12:31:11  but good point
12:31:12  ais523: you don't have to physically shuffle for that, you can randomize without that
12:31:21  ni fact
12:31:24  this doesn't need panglacial /or/ selvala
12:31:35  you can probably put off the card drawing till later too
12:31:44  because nobody can look at the drawn card anyway
12:31:56  do you'd postpone the physical act of (shuffling and drawing card)
12:32:01  what if you're discarding the (face-down) cards for mana
12:32:02  even if it happens from a game perspective
12:32:19  ais523: that 4??.? rule regulates that too
12:32:25  it counts as having no characteristics while it's hidden
12:32:32  to try to get enough after your exotic orchards got turned off by an opponent conceding
12:32:55  b_jonas: no, I mean is there no ability that lets you simply discard cards to generate mana? (possibly with an extra t in the cost)
12:32:59  with no requirements on them?
12:33:24  ais523: um... I don't think so
12:33:51  ais523: there's the Spirit Guide but that doesn't help here
12:33:58  because you can't activate it until the card is revealed
12:34:37  oh samn
12:34:38  there is
12:34:42  ais523: Bog Witch
12:34:57  oh, and also Lion's Eye Diamond (duy)
12:35:01  b_jonas: oh, I was going to use another chromatic sphere + chains of mephistopheles
12:35:07  lion's eye diamond definitely works too
12:35:13  and Overeager Apprentice
12:35:14  wait, no
12:35:22  lion's eye diamond is restricted to instant speed
12:35:22  and Skirge Familiar, the simplest
12:35:39  (it's a mana ability but with a timing restriction
12:35:41  )
12:35:45  wait, how does Skirge Familiar work?
12:35:58  skirge failiar's just a regular mana ability though
12:36:13  a creature with "Discard a card: Add {B} to your mana pool." and no drawback?
12:36:21  it costs 5
12:36:23  that seems horribly overpowered even for an Urza's card
12:36:24  that's a drawback
12:36:26  even still
12:36:37  I mean, that's like Channel level broken, isn't it?
12:36:46  yes, you can't play it first turn
12:36:47  no, it's harder to get 19 cards than 19 life
12:36:47  but still
12:36:55  hmm
12:36:59  ok, I guess that's true
12:37:12  ok, it's not _that_ broken then
12:37:19  not more than Ashnod's Altar
12:37:57  It wouldn't be printed now, but you're right that it's not too broken
12:38:31  ok, so the question is what happens if you use Skirge Familiar to discard a card you just drew with Chromatic Sphere, all while paying for a spell?
12:39:11  here: I cast an expensive spell, filter a mana with chromatic sphere, the draw gets replaced by forbidden crypt and causes me to lose (empty graveyard), which gets replaced by lich's mirror, then I discard the resulting 7 cards to a skirge familiar that came back from under a banishing light (or that an opponent owns but I control), then I try to pay the remaining mana with a shimmering pool that came back from under a different banishing light
12:39:21  but in response, my only opponent who controls any colour-producing lands concedes
12:39:48  and so I'm short one mana for the spell
12:39:55  (without concessions I would be guaranteed to have enough)
12:40:08  (also the forbidden crypt gets shuffled in by the lich's mirror so doesn't affect the subsequent card draws)
12:42:33  SirCmpwn: what's a "shimmering pool"?
12:42:52  weird misping there
12:43:00  ouch
12:43:04  I mean the land that generates opponent-coloured mana
12:43:08  probably a mistap and a tab
12:43:11  did you somehow typo ais as si?
12:43:21  no, I probalby just tried to press a tab
12:43:24  "a" and then tab
12:43:33  but instead pressed "s" followed by tab
12:43:55  do you mean a Reflecting Pool? or some other card?
12:44:28  I think I meant Exotic Orchard
12:44:32  there'll be a Mirror Pool in the next expansion, but it doesn't seem relevant
12:44:52 -!- AlexR42 has joined.
12:45:12  not sure how I got that confused
12:45:18  anyway, almost out of battery, and it's lunchtime
12:45:19  bye everyone
12:45:23 -!- ais523 has quit.
12:46:03  (There's multiple cards with Shimmering, and two of them can give any color.)
12:51:30  b_jonas: what?
12:51:49  AWK seems to use 53 bit integers
12:52:05  gawk, at least
12:53:14  Ah, you can set that
12:55:15 -!- SirCmpwn has left ("WeeChat 1.3").
13:18:37  zzo38: efnet/Athildur claims (without rule proof) that if there's a Chromatic Lantern otb and I use two Chromatic Spheres while casting a spell, then after the spell is successfully cast, opponents get to look at both cards.
13:20:49  How is that?
13:21:32  zzo38: no wait
13:22:16  right, he has already seen the first card anyway, before the spell, and will see the next card on top of my library after casting, and the question was whether he sees the second card I draw.
13:23:36  I also asked what happens if there's no chromatic lantern, but while casting an elephant, I draw a card with Chromatic Sphere and then discard it to Skirge Familiar. They say it's probably permitted, but no answer yet on why you can't look at it.
13:24:52  s/(...)ch/out-\1/fizz
13:25:07  Oh, no regex replacement bot, right.
13:28:38  I just believe that rule 717 needs to be entirely rewritten in order to avoid such problems.
13:29:51  zzo38: rule 717 should be rewritten for clarity, but I don't think it can be rewritten in such a way to avoid these kinds of problems.
13:30:53  zzo38: I think that rule should say that to revert actions, first you revert the whole game state, then any player who had conceded during the transaction leaves the game, with all its consequences, then you continue the game.
13:36:43  I have many ideas about how to fix it though, although it is complicated.
13:38:05  [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Jbs1010 *  New user account
13:38:50  zzo38: would the fix have observable rules consequences even when nobody concedes or leaves the game or loses the game even during the actions that are reverted?
13:39:56  The steps you mentioned are part of it, although there would also be a lot of things about what can be reversed and how, and that the transactional controller is forced to concede if reversing it is impossible (with the consequences for conceding you mentioned above)
13:40:54  b_jonas: Let me to think about it; I am not sure
13:48:11  zzo38: is there anything that's actually impossible to reverse, even with rules fixes that should be done, eg. on Selvala?
13:48:41  And rules fixes on the Chromatic Sphere plus Skirge Familiar situation.
13:48:54  And I mean in the comprehensive rules, not in tournament rules.
13:49:15  The tournament rules have to handle mistakes that can't be reversed, such as accidentally looking at cards that the rules wouldn't allow you to look at.
13:49:23  (It does handle them.)
13:50:14  My proposed fixes would not alter that rule; Selvala could still be used as is, and Chromatic Sphere plus Skirge Familiar could also still be used as is, although if reversing is necessary then the new rule 717 is taken into effect to determine what happens; this depends on whether or not you looked at those cards, as well as on other things.
13:50:44  Oh wait
13:50:49  there's the infinite loops thing
13:52:01  I found earlier than the rule about infinite loops that a player can terminate does have impossible and undefined consequences.
13:52:18  And that does interact with reverting stuff.
13:52:27  Shuffling a library is no longer always impossible to reverse, but in some cases it is impossible.
13:54:05  Same with drawing a card; if you choose not to look at the drawn card, or if you would have already known what the top card of your library was and all players knew this, then it can safely be reversed, otherwise it isn't. But you are not prohibited from looking at the drawn card (you are not forced to either though).
13:55:58  In the sense of explaining a rules situation, what's the easiest way to cast any card at instant speed? Teferi and Isochron Scepter work only on particular sets of cards.
13:56:42  I don't mean any card, just any card that can be cast, i.e. a card that's not a land and not of a type that is always in the command zone.
13:56:57  And I'd like to cast it face up.
13:58:59  Hmm, as for invented cards, would it make sense to have an instant that simply says "Choose a card from your hand. You may cast that card." ? What would that have to cost?
13:59:05  no wait, it would have to say nonland
13:59:14  "Choose a nonland card from your hand. You may cast that card."
14:04:01  Ah right, Ice Cauldron lets you cast any nonland card immediately. It's the most flexible solution I think.
14:05:57  Ah no.
14:06:04  Ice cauldron doesn't let you cast the spell immediately.
14:06:15  It only lets you cast from a different zone with normal timing.
14:08:00  what the heck?
14:10:20  Is there ANY way to cast some enchantment of my choice, say Holy Strength, face up at instant speed, provided I own it? 
14:12:01  what are you asking me about?
14:12:13  b_jonas: vedalken orrery?
14:12:26 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:13:31  oh!
14:13:35  Vedalken Orrery, right
14:13:38  I always forget about that one
14:14:34  Teferi is a much more memorable character, even if I think the Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir card in TSP is a disappointing representation of him.
14:14:50  He's represented much better on other cards, like Ovinize and Disruptive Student.
14:18:02  ais523: efnet/Athildur claims (without rule proof) that if there's a Chromatic Lantern otb and I use two Chromatic Spheres while casting a spell, then after the spell is successfully cast, opponents get to look at both cards.
14:18:54  why?
14:19:26  ais523: they also claim that while casting an elephant, it's possible to draw a card with Chromatic Sphere and discard it with Skirge Familiar, and that it *should* presumably still be hidden with no characteristics in the gy during casting the spell, but the comp rules apparently doesn't say that.
14:19:31  hmm, what if it was a single ability that said "draw two cards"
14:20:15  ais523: 120.2
14:20:16  also, Lantern of Insight is the card I said, not Chromatic Lantern :-)
14:21:07  ah right, sorry. Not Chromatic Lantern, but either Lantern of Insight or Goblin Spy.
14:21:26  (Goblin Spy controlled by me.)
14:21:55  coppro: why which one?
14:22:05  lantern of insight came to mind because it's actually part of a tier 2 modern deck
14:22:14  cards that are played in major decks are easier for me to remember, probably for obvious reasons
14:22:57  why would they be able to see the card
14:23:01  oh lantern of insight
14:23:23  under normal circumstances, lantern of insight means you see every card your opponents draw
14:23:26  technically what happens is
14:23:30  when you draw the first card
14:23:30  so the question is, if they draw two at mana ability speed, what happens
14:23:31  ais523: sure, there are like six cards that cause you to play with the top of your library revealed, but Lantern of Insight is the best because it doesn't have too many extra rules that complicate the matter, and it's a not too old not too expensive card (5DN uc).
14:23:38  it goes to hand face down and the top card is revealed
14:23:43  b_jonas: and the mill is very relevant
14:23:48  and then the second one goes to hand and the next is revealed
14:23:55  coppro: right, that's what I thought would happen
14:24:00  since there's no rule preserving the face-down library card when you draw during casting
14:24:02  so the card's face down but everyone knows what it actually is
14:24:08  right
14:24:20  the crib rule for chromatic sphere is imperfect, which sucks
14:24:33  coppro: but the top card isn't revealed during a transaction (during while a spell or ability is being played) because of 401.6
14:25:04  oh
14:25:09  huh, I never knew about that
14:25:09  still
14:25:23  I would rule the cards are revealed
14:25:25  The cards 401.{5,6} refer to aren't actually face down, are they? They're just hidden and have no characteristics.
14:25:30  yeah
14:25:44  those rules are cribs to deal with an utterly dysfunctional card
14:25:47  "face down" has a rules meaning.
14:26:03  the point is "you don't get hidden information from chromatic sphere during casting/activation"
14:26:44  but it's more than one card. Chromatic Sphere isn't the only one, is it? and Chromatic Sphere isn't such a bad card actually, I like its design, it's just mistamplated, it should cause you to draw the card later as a trigger or something.
14:26:46  huh
14:26:47  http://canada.pch.gc.ca/eng/1445028439342
14:26:53  b_jonas: it is the only one
14:26:56  Chromatic Star is the fix
14:26:59  b_jonas: see Chromatic Star
14:27:08  Besides Lich's Mirror and Chromatic Sphere, what cards can cause you to draw a card?
14:27:09  which is almost exactly Chromatic Sphere but with timing fixes to not be stupid
14:27:12  b_jonas: selvala!
14:27:14  yes, Chromatic Star is a fix.
14:27:18  oh right, Selvala.
14:27:27  I have been mentioning her repeatedly all conversation :-)
14:27:29  well, Chromatic Star is actually also better
14:27:32  Right now I will sleep but I will later explain how my replacement for rule 717 will fix all of these things, without affecting what the cards do.
14:27:50  because you still draw a card if it dies in some other way
14:27:58  b_jonas: it's not possible to lose while casting a spell, though
14:28:11  coppro:  here: I cast an expensive spell, filter a mana with chromatic sphere, the draw gets replaced by forbidden crypt and causes me to lose (empty graveyard), which gets replaced by lich's mirror, then I discard the resulting 7 cards to a skirge familiar that came back from under a banishing light (or that an opponent owns but I control), then I try to pay the remaining mana with an exotic orchard that came back from under a different 
14:28:13  banishing light, but in response the only opponent with color-producing lands concedes and now I'm one mana short
14:28:25  coppro: it is, forbidden crypt triggering on chromatic sphere, we worked this out earlier
14:28:28  took a while though
14:28:33  oh, not counting the sphere I mean
14:28:58  because, as discussed, that card is broken
14:29:05  selvala irritates me, I could tell it was a nightmare the instant it was printed
14:29:08  (also it's pretty recent)
14:29:29  oh right, yeah
14:29:30  screw that card
14:29:34  like, just put a "play this ability only any time you could play an instant" on her, it won't hurt any of its intended uses and makes the corner cases much less cornery
14:29:44  they don't want to actually put that on text though
14:29:50  ah, Odyssey has a cycle of artifacts like Skycloud Egg which also draw a card in a mana ability
14:29:59  but the self-quote above is a similarly screwy situation that b_jonas and I came up with earlier
14:30:12  which AFAICT causes you to have to undo a shuffle of your library, and there's no sequencing/shortcutting tricks to get around it
14:30:43  b_jonas: the modern deck that was based around chromatic sphere/star and mass artifact reanimation was called "eggs"
14:30:57  ais523: there totally is. you just delay the physical shuffle for later as a shortcut.
14:30:58  eventually some of its major pieces got banned because the deck was slowing down tournaments
14:31:12  b_jonas: but you have to draw seven cards off lich's mirror then discard them
14:31:15  after the shuffle
14:33:13  coppro: there are actually at least two ways to lose without conceding while casting a spell: Chromatic Sphere + Forbidden Crypt, or Skyshroud Forest + Nefarious Lich. 
14:33:26  so it's two cards you should curse. but the lich is probably already quite cursed, being a lich.
14:34:05  b_jonas: is mill delayed until state-based actions? or is that instant too?
14:34:11  I think it's delayed but am not sure
14:34:13  ais523: what mill?
14:34:22  b_jonas: trying to draw from an empty library
14:34:26  (colloquially, loss by milling)
14:34:29  losing from drawing? that's delayed to sba too
14:34:42  104.3c
14:34:56  what about winning from drawing with labotory maniac?
14:34:58  and loss from poison counters is delayed too
14:35:09  I can't remember how it's worded (nor how it's spelled, that was my fourth attempt and it still looks wrong)
14:35:17  Laboratory Maniac? hmm
14:35:28  "If you would draw a card while your library has no cards in it, you win the game instead."
14:35:29  aha, "laboratory", that has rather more letters than I thought
14:35:31  no wonder I couldn't spell it
14:35:33  damn
14:35:33  so replacement
14:35:44  that should be instant then
14:35:50  ok, then three ways
14:36:29  And Laboratory Maniac might even be one that isn't already cursed by flavor, unlike the crypt and the lich.
14:39:49  (But it's probably a mad scientist.)
14:42:20  As for rules, can I have non-MTG rules nitpick questions too? 
14:43:33  In a C or C++ program, I call raise on a signal that isn't handled or ignored (as if SIG_DFL or as the process starts), isn't blocked, and causes the process to die (with or without coredump) or stop. Is it guaranteed that the function won't return (and the thread continue execution) before the program dies or stops? There might be other signals delivered at the same time, and the program may be multithreaded.
14:43:50  s/delivered/pending/
14:45:04  The OS needn't be Linux.
14:46:46  http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/raise.html
14:47:07  "If a signal handler is called, the raise() function shall not return until after the signal handler does."
14:47:12  int-e: I looked at POSIX, it says that if the signal is _handled_, the handler will be executed before the function returns.
14:47:20  But there's no handler installed in this case.
14:48:46  I see.
14:49:33 -!- j-bot has joined.
14:49:58  But there might be some text about signals in general that specify this.
14:50:05  eg. in http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/signal.h.html
14:50:19  or even in the C11 standard or something
14:50:33  For POSIX, you'll be wanting to look through 2.4 Signal Concepts in the General Information section of System Interfaces.
14:50:42  Though I didn't see anything obviously relevant there.
14:50:43  (part of the behavior of signals is specified in C, part in POSIX, and part is OS-dependent)
14:51:27  fizzie: 2.4 where? do you have a link?
14:51:42  http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/V2_chap02.html#tag_15_04
14:52:34  (The "System Interfaces" volume is divided to "General Information" and "System Interfaces" sections, the latter of which is the function reference.)
14:54:21  It's slightly suspicious that the description for raise explicitly mentions only "if a signal handler is called", and not something more generally about the "action", but I haven't seen anything explicit about it yet.
14:55:15 -!- mauris has joined.
14:56:01  Although that part seems to be copied over from the C standard.
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14:57:03  fizzie: doesn't the C standard also have SIG_DFL and SIGABRT which is fatal normally? even if it doesn't have signals that stop (suspend) the process.
14:57:47  It has a SIG_DFL, but the default handling seems to be very implementation-defined.
14:58:43  fizzie: yes, but it doesn't _require_ that SIGABRT has a signal handler, so the question still arises what happens if you raise(SIGABRT) and your program doesn't handle it.
14:59:08  Yes, I don't see any explicit requirement for that to terminate the process.
14:59:23  that is, per C standard, the libc _could_ handle that signal and exit the process in some impl-defined way other than by signals, but it needn't do that.
15:00:18  A call to abort() does need to "[return an] implementation-defined form of the status /unsuccessful termination/ [] to the host environment by means of the function call raise(SIGABRT)", though.
15:00:21  in any case, http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/toc.htm does say that the default action for SIGABRT terminates the process ("with additional actions", that is, a core dump) if you SIG_DFL it
15:00:49  Yes, POSIX is more explicit. But it doesn't seem they fully define whether raise may return before that.
15:02:35  > 38 * 38
15:02:36 -!- spiette has joined.
15:02:37   1444
15:03:00  I was hoping for the default actions to be specified with something like "as if a signal handler that did X was installed", but that doesn't seem to be the case.
15:03:30  (Because in that case you could have relied on the bit in the description of raise.)
15:04:03  odd
15:04:55 -!- bender| has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:05:02  It seems that the POSIX description of sigsuspend is more explicit: at http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/sigsuspend.html it seems to say that it won't return if the signal it lets through terminates the process,
15:09:10  I don't want to do complicated things with signals, but I would like to trust raise to not return in those sane circumstances.
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15:30:08  In M:tG, what is the cycle of not very rare artifacts in some pre-modern set that produce or color three colors of mana?
15:30:21  And have illustrations of some sort of flat disk with some design on them.
15:30:43  b_jonas: three-color artifacts are IIRC borderposts
15:30:44  I don't know what exact set they are, or what mechanic they do exactly. 
15:30:57  wait no
15:31:05  those are two-colour
15:31:08  ais523: the obelisks are in Alara. these are older
15:31:12  but it's got to be either alara block or khans block
15:31:18  eg. Obelisk of Esper
15:31:19  oh, pre-modern
15:31:38  there's a cycle of lands in homelands that produce three colours
15:31:41  they are almost incomprehensibly bad
15:31:46  definitely not land
15:31:51  they're artifactgs
15:31:54  non-creature artifacts
15:32:58  I think I might be misremembering something.
15:33:56  b_jonas: Rith's Attendant?
15:34:30  ais523: no, the illustration at least definitely shows some inanimate abstract thingies
15:34:35  possibly disks
15:34:56  the illustration is what I remember the most, the mechanics are probably wrong
15:35:10  it's the only pre-modern artifact with {R},{G},{W} in its rules text but not {U} or {B}
15:35:44  hmm... maybe they produce only two colors of mana, or don't produce mana, or something
15:35:48  I'll continue searching
15:40:47  ah, I found it! and my description was wrong in multiple places
15:41:46  or at least I might have found it. the Talisman of Progress cycle in Mirrodin. modern, and produces two colors.
15:41:55  I might be conflating different cards.
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15:42:29  These are definitely disk-shaped artifacts at least.
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15:43:35 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane.
15:47:29  Not surprisingly, the Invasion block has lots of different colored mana producers.
15:48:34  Wow, there's Multani's Harmony, which is like Paradise Mantle but an aura for {G}
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16:12:24  Helping someone learn formal languages and automata
16:13:28  cool
16:15:01  I need to figure out how to explain the pumping lemma for regular languages
16:15:10  ill show you how to explain pumping lemma
16:15:15  just giv eme a sec to draw it
16:15:53  I've given him some problems to work on converting between regular languages and FSAs
16:16:11  So you've got some time
16:17:17  http://i.imgur.com/sddYwEt.png
16:17:51  zzo38: I think I solved your first puzzle, but I feel like it's wrong
16:17:58  Thanks
16:18:36  try a book?
16:19:02  His exam is in less than two hours
16:19:07  ouch
16:19:16  um, an online book or something_
16:19:23  I don't know what good books are there for this
16:19:24  Actually, I have a book
16:19:27  Just it's at home
16:19:29  And I'm not
16:20:27  Does he already know that regular languages can be defined with *nondeterministic* finite automata without null moves?
16:20:37  as opposed to just deterministic ones?
16:20:46  or maybe it's the opposite way?
16:20:47  I dunno
16:20:51  I don't know how this works
16:20:53  I think so
16:21:05  I don't know how hard the questions I've given him are
16:21:40  I put too many dots :|
16:21:53  well it doesn't matter
16:23:29  it would be kind to teach derivatives
16:25:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:36:39 -!- zadock has joined.
16:54:52  `wisdom
16:54:54  `dateu
16:55:19  2016-01-06 16:54:58.117220000+00:00
16:55:23  grue/grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
16:55:36  `? bleen
16:55:38  bleen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:55:59  `learn bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees
16:56:04  Learned 'bleen': bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees
17:04:03  hmm, bleen... vexxar?
17:06:55  Taneb: this is less useful for trivia, as it is much more widely known.
17:07:05  (referring to the universal number)
17:07:56  `? grey
17:07:58  grey? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:07:59  `? gray
17:08:00  gray? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:08:30  Ugh
17:08:40  This syllabus calls what I call "regular languages" "rational"
17:08:42  . o O ( Grey is a common misspelling of gray. / Gray is a common misspelling of grey. )
17:09:11  Put a Taneb invented it in Grey and a Taneb did not invent it in Gray
17:09:13  I've seen that before (rational languages)
17:09:44  But I don't know where that terminology comes from
17:10:33  Hmm. "Taneb disinvented it."
17:11:00  `? deniability
17:11:01  deniability? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:11:16  `learn Deniability was not invented by Taneb.
17:11:20  Learned 'deniability': Deniability was not invented by Taneb.
17:11:43  Plausible.
17:12:44  Ah
17:12:55  I know roughly half of the exam this guy is sitting
17:13:00  In 48 minutes
17:13:32  uh good luck
17:14:26  What does it mean for a monoid to recognize a language
17:14:39  a monoid huh
17:14:49  maybe it acts on a set of states
17:15:47  is "Taneb invented it" now a synonym for "Taneb approves it"?
17:16:19  quintopia: I don't think so
17:16:39  Taneb: are there any numbers in reverse alphabetical order besides "one"
17:16:52  quintopia: I don't think so but couldn't say for sure
17:18:47  it is recognized by some finite monoid, meaning it is the preimage of a subset of a finite monoid under a homomorphism from the free monoid on its alphabet[note 7]
17:19:03  that's equiv to regular language? neat
17:19:23  Said friend seems to have disappeared while attempting to refill his water
17:19:24  is anyone a wikipedia editorL
17:19:24  ?
17:24:54  I haven't edited WIkipedia in a few years.
17:25:57  feel like making an edit ??
17:28:37 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
17:31:30  vanila, can you not make the edit
17:31:59  i dont have an account
17:33:23  you don't need an account unless they've really clamped down on anonymous editing in the last few years
17:34:49  [wiki] [[Tonoco]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46092&oldid=46077 * Keymaker * (+4) Fixed truth-machine spelling and linked it to its page.
17:51:01  Phantom_Hoover: actually there's a new level of protection that's lower than semiprotection that's used on articles that anonymous people keep screwing up
17:51:10  so it's a bit less clamped down than it used to be
17:51:26 -!- p34k has joined.
17:51:28  it delays showing the edits to other anons until someone with perms manually checks them
17:56:34 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:56:58  ah, is that what revisionapprove turned into?
17:57:11  yep
18:00:11 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:03:15  ais523: can registered users see them?
18:04:00  quintopia: yes, actually anyone can by clicking a link
18:04:10  just it's default to show most recent for registered, and most recent approved for anons
18:04:27  ah
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19:46:36  ais523 mentioned tiny leaders being solved earlier, anyone have a source
19:47:33  I...
19:47:42  I just heard someone say "monoids are easy"
19:47:46  Outside the context of Haskell
19:48:52  They're not as easy as you might think.
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20:34:23  [wiki] [[User:Fizzie]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46093&oldid=40332 * Fizzie * (+0) Post-upgrade edit test for 1.26.2.
20:35:22  There was some transient weirdness about logging in and session storage, but it seems to have maybe cleared up on its own.
20:35:29  @tell ais523 Just as a heads-up, updated esolangs.org to MediaWiki 1.26.2, in case you want to have a look, see if I broke something.
20:35:29  Consider it noted.
20:35:32  @tell oerjan Just as a heads-up, updated esolangs.org to MediaWiki 1.26.2, in case you want to have a look, see if I broke something.
20:35:32  Consider it noted.
20:36:51  I seem to have broken at least the images for the bottom-right corner CC0 and MediaWiki links.
20:42:44  devious
20:43:06  They seem to have gone to /w/resources which wasn't part of the nginx configuration.
20:49:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:53:18  Hello people. 
20:59:21  hi
21:04:35 -!- mauris_ has joined.
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21:07:08  This syllabus calls what I call "regular languages" "rational"” -- that terminology actually makes sense, and I can explain why, although it's a bit bad since "rational" is a VERY overused word.
21:08:23  i would like to know
21:08:29  also b_jonas how about adding to wikipedia?
21:08:35  Some textbooks introduce regular languages in such a way that they consider the set of languages (over a fixed alphabet) a semiring with unit,  
21:09:09  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_language#Equivalent_formalisms -- they don't mention a language is regular iff it has finitely many derivatives. Someone please add this!
21:09:32  where the addition is the union of two languages, and the multiplication is elementwise concatenation. (The zero is the empty language, the unit is the language containing only the empty string, often notated by epsilon.)
21:09:53  omg that's beautiful!!
21:09:54  It is not hard to verify that this satisfies the axioms of semirings. 
21:09:57  i see what you mean
21:10:06  There is a use for this description,
21:10:16  would chomsky context free languages be algebraic?
21:11:12  namely it is used to prove in an understandible way the nontrivial theorem that every language defined by a nondetrministic finite automaton (with null states) can also be defined by a regular expression (an expression made of finite sets, monoid operations, and the star closure).
21:12:12  You prove this in a constructive (but exponential time) way: from the finite automaton, you write a left regular BNF form, which formally looks like a set of "linear" equations in this monoid,
21:12:40  where there is a variable for each state of the automaton, which has the value of the language accepted if starting from that state,
21:13:02  and the equations are originally derived from the translation rules and final states.
21:13:45  Then you transform these linear equations in a way somewhat similar to gaussian elimination.
21:14:35  Namely, you keep the equations of a form where the left side is always a variable, and the right side is a regular expression with variables in them,
21:15:17  then if an equation contains the lhs variable inside the rhs, then you transform this in a certain way which introduces the star closure,
21:15:40  and if the equation does not contain the lhs variable inside the rhs, then you eliminate that equation and variable by substituting it everywhere else.
21:16:18  I have heared this description, although not the terminology "rational language", but it makes total sense.
21:16:56  However, I would not recomment "rational language" as a name, because "rational" is overloaded, and "regular language" or "Chomsky L0 language" are both well known terms that mean this.
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21:19:43  Although this linear equation formalism isn't really necessary for the proof, it helps understanding. I don't know how well it's known.
21:19:52  (And in case it's not clear, this is a commutative semiring.)
21:24:11  Taneb: did you succeed explaining?
21:28:37 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
21:32:27  Looked up "sgsdgdfsfsh.org" at a domain registration place (random mashing just to see their prices), and they intelligently suggested I might be interested in "sgsdecigramdfsfsh.com" instead.
21:35:50  heh
21:36:59  Well, are you?
21:37:14  Not really. I mean, decigrams.
21:37:17  Incidentally, I thought WHOIS privacy protection things were predominantly a standard service, but it seems they quite often now are priced separately instead.
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21:41:00  wait, *decigram*? that's not even a real used unit of measurement, is it? that is, the rules that restrict the use of the centi, deci, deka, hecto forbid it, don't they?
21:41:04  let me look that up
21:41:21  I don't know all of those rules by heart.
21:41:36  s/deka/deca/ in English apparently
21:43:12  Hmm, where do I find those rules?
21:47:14  I've never seen it used before I think, but I don't know if it's actually forbidden
21:48:27  FireFly: forbidden by SI, as in, much of the metric units and prefixes were in use somewhat before SI, but SI restricts them a bit more, apart from restricting the use of non-metric units.
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22:30:07  Holy crap I am here.
22:30:16  Hi
22:30:22  Hello.
22:30:24  One time I had two dogs that got hit by three cars for life.
22:30:36  `welcome onetwothree4life
22:30:38  How was your life?
22:30:50  Thankyou Taneb
22:31:00  How was your life?
22:31:05  onetwothree4life: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:31:16  Wow.
22:31:20  I have arrived. 
22:31:35  @uptime
22:31:36  uptime: 25m 8s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
22:31:37  pity
22:31:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:31:48  Taneb: hi. did the cs teaching work?
22:32:01  b_jonas: to some extent
22:32:20  Someone else came along and explained the bits to him that I didn't know
22:32:29  And the exam is at 9 tomorrow, not 6 tonight
22:33:47  I see.
22:35:42  onetwothree4life hi
22:39:04  Taneb, hmm i thought i was going to york in february but turns out it's leeds
22:39:17  Hmm, it's nearby
22:39:23  Why are you venturing my way?
22:39:33  underwater hockey tournament
22:40:36  Ahaha!
22:40:38  How long for?
22:42:20  Is that at all like Blitzball?
22:42:48  Taneb, saturday, probably leaving early sunday afternoon
22:43:00  fizzie, no b/c giant floating balls of water don't exist irl
22:43:28  It could be a non-floating half-sphere, and be half like blitzball.
22:45:30  anyway no, you use a sinking lead puck in a flat pool
22:45:35  well, flat in theory
22:45:44 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:45:45  in practice it's like playing football on a hill
22:46:23  Are you completely submerged, or only just partially? 
22:46:36  you play with a snorkel, so both
22:46:53  The Final Fantasy wikia's blitzball page linked me to Underwater Rugby.
22:47:07  we play that when we're sick of underwater hockey
22:49:12  Phantom_Hoover: what's the context? are you a spectator, a player, or a referee/umpire?
22:49:24  Or perhaps a coach.
22:49:35  a player
22:49:57  it's not a real sport so we don't have proper referees, just pedantic players with a special hat
22:50:02  This is on which continent? I know there's at least one underwater hockey club in Hungary, but it's not a very popular sport.
22:50:15  and you can't really see what's going on because of all the water so there are no spectators
22:50:23  b_jonas, the UK
22:50:33  it's also apparently very big in new zealand
22:50:41  by "not a real sport", do you mean you play casually, not in a very competitive way, just like how many people play casual football without professional referees?
22:50:52  rather than playing in tournaments that is.
22:50:55  I could quite easily come and watch if such a thing were possible
22:51:59  "you can't really see what's going on because of all the water so there are no spectators" -- probably. but some people watch surprisingly weird sports that I would think aren't worth to watch, especially if they are friends or family with players.
22:52:28  well yeah, you do get friends and family along
22:52:35  though normally they get roped into being refs too
22:52:52  it's only natural that some parents are interested since adolescent children play the sport too
22:54:46  haavard: Are you on? Then you can reply to me about the puzzles?
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22:57:25  b_jonas, ill have you know that were respectable adults thank you very much
22:57:51  Why have the skins other than Vector been deleted from esolang wiki?
22:58:11  Phantom_Hoover: ok
22:58:30  zzo38, b/c the other ones look like shit?
22:58:30  Phantom_Hoover: but even if you're respectable adults, some of you might have sons practicing underwater hockey
22:58:51  b_jonas, here now that's a very pessimistic view of our teen pregnancy rates
22:58:54  Phantom_Hoover: by the way, where does your nick come from? is there a public reason?
22:59:07  i thought it was funny when i was ~12 i think
23:02:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:03:27  `? Phantom_Hoover
23:03:37  Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop.
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23:04:59  one day, I'll have a child. I hope he can swim better than me.
23:06:23 -!- puck1pedia has changed nick to puckipedia.
23:06:39  Phantom_Hoover: I see
23:07:06  @tell zzo38 It was a semi-unintentional side effect of updating to a new MediaWiki version -- it doesn't enable all installed skins by default (like the old version did), and I only just quick-fixed it by re-enabling the standard one. I will look into enabling the others -- I was wondering whether some of our users were actually using them.
23:07:06  Consider it noted.
23:09:25  I guess the main reason why underwater hockey isn't very popular here as a casual sport is that it needs a suitable swimming pool and there's few of those.
23:09:33  So it would be expensive.
23:10:03  More so than water polo, which is popular, but might have more choice in swimming pools.
23:10:49  Obviously the other part why it's not popular is that it's not suitable as a spectator sport and so few people know about it.
23:11:31  it's not that expensive, at least in the club i play at
23:11:42  general sports membership + £6
23:12:03  Seems that the user_properties table has 2 instances of 'cologneblue', 4 instances of 'modern', 4 instances of 'monobook', 1 instance of 'simple' and 11 instances of 'standard'. Only CologneBlue, Modern, MonoBook and Vector seem to be part of the installation now.
23:12:15  i think it's mostly obscure because it was invented by a diving club in the 50s and has spread from there
23:12:34  um, what does "general sports membership" mean, GBP 6 per what (month person, week person, occasion person), and traveling to the swimming pool is part of the cost.
23:12:51 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:12:58  £6 buys you club membership for a year, you can play with only that
23:13:34  @messages-
23:13:34  fizzie said 2h 38m 2s ago: Just as a heads-up, updated esolangs.org to MediaWiki 1.26.2, in case you want to have a look, see if I broke something.
23:13:45  general sports membership means buying access to the university's sports clubs, which is an extortionate £90 or so but is also necessary to do the mainstream sports
23:14:32  Even water polo isn't cheap, since it needs reserving some lanes in a swimming pool of length at least 25 m, and there aren't many such swimming pools available, since it's actually very expensive to maintain one.
23:15:19  Phantom_Hoover: I see. Is there an additional requirement of some relation with the university to that? And what else does that membership buy you? And is it GBP 90 per person year?
23:16:06  (quickly checking, 1 GBP = 430 HUF approx currently)
23:17:03  it's £96/year basically but if you want to do water polo or football or any other sport that £90 is already necessary
23:17:10  @tell zzo38 I have re-enabled the three other ones that were still bundled as part of the 1.26 installation (Cologne Blue, Modern, MonoBook). I believe the other two skins that people had historically used (standard, simple) had already been removed in 1.22, the previous version.
23:17:10  Consider it noted.
23:17:18  for local clubs it's genrally £4 a night
23:17:35  That would result in 8 GBP per month person in average, which seems cheap for a swimming pool access if you go regularly throughout the whole year.
23:18:15  I pay more than that for swimming, and most of that cost is actually for the swimming pool access.
23:19:09  What are the requirements for the swimming pool for underwater hockey? Can you practice in a pool with a slanted floor? Floor slanted in half of the pool? Size and depth limits?
23:19:29  For regular casual practice that is, not for a match.
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23:23:12  fizzie: the Recent Changes preferences changed a bit, and when i fixed that the Save button strangely took me from https to http, telling me i had to log in (i was already logged in on https).
23:23:19  b_jonas, yeah, you just work around slopes in the pool
23:24:07  Phantom_Hoover: do you need an entire swimming pool, or are two or three lanes in a sloped pool enough?
23:24:08  oerjan: I had some logged-in/not-logged-in weirdness initially too. Don't think I remembered to check whether that was due to http/https differences.
23:24:25  somehow jumping back and forth in history then got me logged in on http too
23:24:36  without afair giving the password.
23:24:46  I'm wondering if it's something to do with the memcache stuff.
23:24:56  b_jonas, depends, lanes are normally too narrow though
23:25:29  you can play widthways quite easily though
23:25:40  Hmm. We've got wgServer set to "http://esolangs.org" -- I think that should be just "//esolangs.org", really.
23:25:42  fizzie: i fact since i became admin i've been making a point of _not_ being logged in on just http, so i don't really want this...
23:25:48  At least as far as I can tell from https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgServer
23:26:09  Sure, but it's hard to reserve part of a public swimming pool widthwise, whereas it's easy to reserve two or three lanes. Water polo practices are often done in lanes here.
23:26:22  Especially so in big swimming pools.
23:27:06  oerjan: I tried setting it to the protocol-agnostic thing. Hopefully that should mean links should stay in the scheme you were on.
23:27:56  (Also set $wgCanonicalServer to https:// -- the documentation says it'll use that for links in things like emails.)
23:29:39  I think that'll have a side effect of switching to https:// links in the on-channel edit notifications.
23:31:53  good, as i've been editing that manually
23:32:15  Oh.
23:32:35  No wonder this felt familiar: I had in fact done exactly the same change before.
23:32:48  (Except with $wgCanonicalServer set to http:// instead.)
23:33:09  Turns out I fixed it on the server, but not in the canonical copy of the configuration where I take it from when updating.
23:33:21  heh
23:34:57  I also seem to have managed to rollback the captcha questions (from the single 0x29A to the old, larger set) due to the same sort of thing.
23:35:16  Wonder if I should redo that change as well, it must've been changed for a reason.
23:36:08  fizzie: also most links did seem to already stay in the same scheme, it was just the Save button that behaved weirdly.
23:37:30  b_jonas, the clubs i've been at have just booked the entire pool very late in the evenin
23:37:31  *g
23:38:08  fizzie: afair we changed the captcha to just one because it was easier to change when the spambots managed to get one, and seemed just as effective...
23:38:29  Well, I restored it back to the 0x29A it most recently had been.
23:38:51  Phantom_Hoover: yes, that works for smaller or worse pools
23:38:58  i did see a spammer recently.  haven't checked the actual abuse log.
23:39:01  And yes; most in-page links probably would have worked if they are just normal relative ones, I assume it just needs a fully qualified URL for some more special things.
23:39:11  Phantom_Hoover: what size of pools? 20, 30, 33, 50 meter?
23:39:15  um,
23:39:20  20, 25, 30, 33, 50 meters
23:39:31  (25 meter is actually the most common length)
23:39:46  varies but the local club in coventry has a 50m pool
23:39:54  nice
23:40:13  Indoor or outdoor? Can you even do underwater hockey in an outdoor pool?
23:40:19  that's split into 2 though, so ~25m would be a typical length
23:40:35  Does underwater hockey need good lighting (lamps) for the pool?
23:40:36  doesn't look like any spambots triggered the filters recently.
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23:40:57  if the bottom's flat and you can see then outdoors would be fine, i'm sure
23:41:07  there are not many outdoor pools in the uk though
23:41:33  the last three users to get hits were regulars
23:41:55  Phantom_Hoover: right, warm water in pools is somewhat of a special advantage here
23:42:24  as in, there are lots of natural warm water springs, and as a result, many swimming pools have warm water, whereas I hear this isn't true in most other locations
23:47:12  that recent spammer would not have been got by any filter, anyway, it was a single edit that looked plausible except that the link domain was _slightly_ fishy so i visited it.
23:47:42  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=CAT&diff=prev&oldid=46055
23:48:19  I understand that in a lot of other countries, many children swim in warm neoprene suits, whereas that's rare here.
23:48:50  yeah you'd generally wear a wetsuit to swim outdoors here
23:48:58  for diving most people wear drysuits
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2016-01-07:

00:03:44 -!- FreeFull has joined.
00:05:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:05:52  OOh
00:06:02  I don't think anyone's made an OO logic language before
00:09:43  What do you mean by OO?
00:10:23  the logic part is usually immutable, isn't it
00:11:01  hm some say Erlang is an OO language in the original sense
00:11:28  There's an original sense?
00:11:37  Alan Kay's sense, iirc
00:31:12  @tell izabera  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befana  YOU PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THIS?!? <-- NOPE HTH
00:31:12  Consider it noted.
00:34:33  oerjan: We don't have it here in america
00:34:45  i wouldn't expect you to
00:34:46  In fact, I don't think we even celebrate Epiphany in the US
00:35:00  oerjan: Of course not xD.
00:35:08  not in norway either
00:35:31  hppavilion[1]: well, unless maybe you were of italian descent
00:35:41  oerjan: True
00:36:22  oerjan: Where can I find info on OO in the Alan Kay sense?
00:36:25  I want to learn about it :)
00:36:47  i don't think epiphany is celebrated, although it's traditionally the last day of christmas in parts of norway (some include one more week)
00:36:50  Unless it's the typical description of OO, but modern languages /don't/ OO properly
00:37:21  Like, they don't implement what Wikipedia talks about
00:38:25  hppavilion[1]: well "Actually I made up the term "object-oriented", and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind."
00:38:44  although he probably had something smalltalkish
00:38:54  oerjan: Ah.
00:39:00  Are you the one who hates OO?
00:39:11  Someone on this channel does, one of the o's
00:39:34  (People whose names start with "o" are nearly indistinguishable in my memory)
00:40:27  hate?  not really.  i'm almost haskell-monoglottish these days, though.  when i even program.
00:40:42  Ah. It must be \oren\ then.
00:40:51  \oren\ perhaps.  he's rather opinionated on some things.
00:41:15  oerjan: Yes, I think it was.
00:46:44 -!- mauris has joined.
00:50:02 -!- mauris has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:52:46  oh right, istr back when i was a kid january 6 was about the time we removed the christmas decorations.
00:54:57 -!- mauris has joined.
00:56:14 <\oren\> I don't like most OO, but only because of the syntax being needlessly complicated 
00:57:00 <\oren\> the actual concepts of ADT's and polymorphism, etc are mostly fine
00:57:13  ADT's and polymorphism isn't OO
00:57:23 <\oren\> sure it is
00:57:31  thats functional programming
00:57:35  OO is about message passing and/or classes and instances
00:57:52 <\oren\> classes  and instances = ADT's?
00:58:27 <\oren\> well i mean an ADT is like an interface, and then an implemention is a class
00:59:19  thats a completely different thing that i ever thought of
01:01:13 <\oren\> anyway basically a lot of the useful parts of OO are functional programming with a stupid syntax
01:10:07  ADT has two different meanings hth
01:10:48  dependent on whether A is Abstract or Algebraic
01:11:04  in an OO context you would say encapsulation 
01:13:50  vanila: OO need not be classy
01:36:50  oerjan: What if it's just Average?
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02:39:43  > 38 * 38
02:39:45   1444
02:40:11  oh wait that's correct
02:40:17  > 38^2
02:40:19   1444
02:40:49  amazitng that it has all the 4s
02:41:19  38^4
02:41:25  > 38^4
02:41:27   2085136
02:41:35  disappointing, that
02:41:58  does lambdabot support nested powers or whatever they're called?
02:42:02  > 2^^2
02:42:03   4.0
02:42:08  :(
02:42:23  :t (^^)
02:42:24  (Fractional a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
02:42:44  :t (^)
02:42:45  (Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a
02:42:48  :t (**)
02:42:49  Floating a => a -> a -> a
02:43:04  > foldr1 (^) [2,2]
02:43:05   4
02:43:19  > foldr1 (^) $ replicate 3 2
02:43:20   16
02:43:28  tghere doesn't seem to be any other numbers 
02:43:36  oerjan, now write it pointfree
02:44:19  > (((foldr1 (^).).replicate) 3 2
02:44:20   :1:31:
02:44:20       parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
02:44:22  oops
02:44:29  > ((foldr1 (^).).replicate) 3 2
02:44:31   16
02:47:53  [wiki] [[Cardinal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46094&oldid=45357 * Albedo * (+310) /* External resources */ external source added
02:52:00  `? gray
02:52:20  gray? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:52:25 -!- singingboyo has joined.
02:52:45  `learn Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
02:52:49  Learned 'gray': Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
02:54:06  just chennaling en eltarnetiva univarsa hara
02:55:00  oerjan: well those were an odd couple of messages to join to
02:55:14  `? gray
02:55:16  Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
02:55:40  singingboyo: okey
02:56:40  also i was inspired by some logreading
02:57:33  earjen: good work fixing thet dafinition
02:57:45  *oarjen
02:57:55  thenks
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05:17:30  i am confused by the first dot
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08:42:35  What happens if you reverse the order of returns?
08:47:23  also... where would return values go...
08:47:59  http://codepad.org/EZD8StCf
08:48:13  basically ret would pop elements from the call stack in reverse order
09:03:07  What would happen is your brain would start hurting
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09:23:53  also if any new languages come out that have nullable types as the default I will only look at them and go "whyyyy :("
09:24:50  hah
09:25:52  because they should be non-nullable
09:26:25  I don't have a problem with nullable types as defaults in C++, but that's because the nullable types are the _pointers_ (pointers to objects, to void to functions, to member objects, to member functions), which are supposed to be low level types,
09:26:41 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:26:48  but you can build high-level types that aren't nullable, and the standard library generally has such types.
09:27:24  The thing is that most methods for example in Java will assume that references are valid (non-null)
09:27:44  luckily if they are null it will raise a NullPointer-Exception
09:27:51  which you can catch somewhere
09:27:59  On the other hand, there's some reasons why certain types have to be nullable in C++ even if they're semantically non-nullable, and this is because it's easier to handle types that can be moved, and even easier if they can be default-constructed, which often requires nullability.
09:28:18  Which is why eg. unique_ptr is nullable and should be.
09:28:21  but usually you catch those only in outter-outter-outter function because you never expect a NullPointer-Exception to be thrown
09:28:58  (And by can be moved, I mean that they can have noexpect move constructed technically.)
09:29:12  mroman: sorry, I don't do java.
09:29:17  so ideally you'd have to annotate references that they may be null
09:29:34  such as String (never null), String? (maybe null)
09:30:05  and passing a T? to a T would be deemed illegale without having it checked first
09:30:50  Now for a language that's almost fully dynamically allocated, like java or haskell or ruby or python, the objections I mentioned don't stand, although there are some other reasons why you want nullable by default types in some of those languages.
09:31:08  what reasons?
09:31:59  There are cases where you'd want null (such as for example in certain data structures) but those would be T? then
09:32:02  That's what @Nullable is for in Java.
09:32:25  for example map.get would be T? because it returns null if the element does not exist
09:32:36  It's not an uncommon convention to say that all non-annotated references are always non-null, and require @Nullable otherwise.
09:33:00  It's a bit more verbose than the C# ?, but still.
09:34:12  It's a convention, yes.
09:34:23  but it's not reflected within the language itself
09:34:31  Well, there are also good tools that make it an error to pass @Nullable Foo to a function taking a Foo.
09:34:34  because the language's convention is, that they are all nullable
09:34:43  Of course you need an annotations for all libraries you use, including the standard one, which can be a pain.
09:35:10  That's why it's so important to design a language nicely from the start
09:35:26  if you fix things later you'll have trouble that you have lots and lots of old code around
09:35:33  that don't follow new "things"
09:36:20  and then you need external tools that check annotations/javadoc in the hope that all code you use use them properly too
09:36:56  I guess findbugs might have some @Nullable heuristics
09:37:33  It does, and the Checker Framework is popular too.
09:37:39  mroman: In haskell, as far as I know, almost nothing is implicitly nullable.
09:39:00  Haskell is quite nice :)
09:39:15  mroman: in ruby and python, the problem is that, unlike in smalltalk, classes don't have their set of instance variables fixed statically in advanced, but each instance can add instance variables dynamically. due to this, you can't require that all instances variables of an object of a user-defined class are initialized when the obj is constructed,
09:39:15  except for things like fromJust
09:39:20  and non-total list functions
09:40:01  I mean, I admit it's very much less clean than it would be if it were part of the core language, but it's still quite possible to have strict nullness checks in Java.
09:40:15  so there have to exist non-existant instance variables, and either those are just implicitly read as a null value, which means the instance variable is of a nullable type, or cause an error when read, which sort of means the class is of a nullable type.
09:40:18  b_jonas: Yes, this wouldn't work in dynamic languages
09:40:25  you'd need static type checking
09:40:49  the whole point is to avoid run-time nullpointer errors 
09:41:30  but that's because i've worked with librarys with poor exception handling
09:42:04  that throw nullpointer exceptions for all kinds of errors
09:42:27  mroman: I see. 
09:42:34  which are annoying to debug because then I need to go through the source code of that library
09:42:47  and trace where those values come from to see why something is null
09:43:10  But is this a problem with the java language, or just some badly written libraries?
09:43:28  and you can't do proper error reporting in your application because you can't really tell much if it the library just reports nullpointer exception
09:43:59  that's why you display "An error happened" to the user-gui :)
09:44:05  instead of a meaningful message
09:44:25  Oh? In my experience, you generally display a 200-line stack trace instead.
09:44:27  b_jonas: It's 90% badly written library
09:44:40  By the way, SQL also has types that are nullable by default, but can be declared as non-nullable, and I don't know the reason for that.
09:44:59  Okay, maybe you print the 200-line stack trace in the console and display "an error happened" in the GUI.
09:45:29  fizzie: Well you obviously log the stack trace but you won't be displaying the stack trace to an end-user
09:45:38  In SQL, is it a good practice to declare most table columns as NON NULL explicitly if they shall not contain nulls?
09:45:47  I've seen quite a lot of stack traces as an end user of Java programs.
09:46:22  b_jonas: I've been doing that, but I don't know if it's standard practice or not.
09:46:28  some display the stacktrace to the user
09:46:42  but in my case it wouldn't tell the user what he did wrong.
09:47:10  Sometimes it's a stack trace after Proguarding, which is extra helpful.
09:47:17  fizzie: I'm not asking if it's standard practice or not. I'm asking if it's good practice or not. There's lots of bad SQL out there so the two needn't be the same.
09:47:28  the only thing I can do is to check for the exact location of the null-pointer exception within the library 
09:47:31  and then do
09:48:01  if(lineNo == 12) { /* this is wrong */ } else if (lineNo == 99) { /* that other thing is wrong */ } ...
09:48:17  Sounds very maintainable.
09:48:21  but I'm not going to do that because we have no more funding :D
09:48:45  fizzie: The library has internal state
09:48:59  lots
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09:50:53  which is also a problem if you restart tomcat
09:50:54  because...
09:51:12  even though the library saves certain things to files
09:51:21  it doesn't properly reload all of them
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09:56:04  http://pastebin.com/T3uZLCtm <- that's the storage 
09:56:57  well that's the "database" of the library to be precis
09:57:01  O(n) lookup
09:57:21  and deletion is done by creating a tempfile, copying every entry in the file to it, skipping the one to delet, delete the file, rename the tempfile
09:57:50  and yes, that code is property of IBM :D
09:58:33  oh, I meant copy from tempfile back to original file
09:58:34 -!- mauris has joined.
09:58:48  In ascii text, if I want to give a list of timestamps, each timestamp in an RFC 3339 / ISO 8601 format, then can I separate the timestamps with commas? Or are commas commonly used for something else in the context of ISO 8601 style timestamps?
09:59:14  b_jonas: comma may optionally replace period.
09:59:46 -!- sebbu has joined.
09:59:52  hmm, that could be a problem
10:00:30  (although I personally dislike commas used as a decimal point OR thousands separator)
10:00:40  I might need to find a different separator then
10:00:58  property, but not written I assume.
10:01:23  It's an open source privacy/crypto engine/library 
10:01:50  indeed, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Times says commas are used as a decimal point in such timestamps
10:02:56  >> Represent it as "14:30,5", "1430,5", "14:30.5", or "1430.5". <<
10:03:11  parsing date times must be tedious
10:03:13  so many formats
10:03:14 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
10:03:20  and formats allow multiple variations?
10:03:30  Huh, I didn't know ISO 8601 was that flexible.
10:03:43  Commas in numbers are a stupid historical practice from back when people frequently used a period as either a thousands group separator or a multiplication sign, and should be gone.
10:03:56  We've got commas in numbers back in Finland.
10:04:10  And the period as the thousands separator.
10:04:25  We use ' for that
10:04:31  1'000,95
10:04:43  but I hate that we use commas for that
10:04:48  did you know that in RFC 3339 +0000 and -0000 has different meanings?
10:04:52  People should use symbols for thousands separators other than commas or periods, such as a thin space, underscore, apostrophe, double colon, space; and even if you insist on using the dot for a multiplication sign, you should use an upper dot rather than a comma for decimal separator.
10:05:19  mroman: non-breaking space (or non-breaking thin space) FTW
10:05:19  lifthrasiir: is that "duration"?
10:05:27  mroman: no, the time zone
10:05:31  hm
10:05:36  hmm
10:05:37  sorry
10:05:41  it was RFC 2822
10:06:04  fizzie: yes, _traditionally_ Hungary has commas only for decimal points, just like how _traditionally_ it uses roman numerals to denote months, and multiple crazy formats to denote timestamps made of hours and minutes.
10:06:04  anyway, only +0000 refers to UTC; -0000 signals the lack of timezone information (????)
10:06:12  "Unknown local offset convention
10:06:13  "
10:06:19  I'd attend that convention.
10:06:21  But these are traditions that many people don't follow anymore, and I wish even fewer people would follow.
10:07:19  One big problem with the decimal point is that it's specified as the comma in lots of software, including most Hungarian locales, and those are generally VERY hard to change, eg. they require recompiling libc or worse. 
10:07:21  Sorry, I misspoke: we use space for the separator.
10:07:25  I mean, in theory.
10:07:34  I don't think people actually use it that much, but that's the standard.
10:07:38  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "fi_FI"); printf("%'.2f", 1234.56); }
10:07:39  1234,56
10:07:45  what's even worse is that scanf looks at the locale
10:08:23  However, those Hungarian locales suck in other ways, eg. the one in Gnu libc has a blatant error in it where the month abbreviation for September is wrong, and message translations to Hungarian suck in lots of software.
10:08:44  my brother used a chemical software that parsed some data format with scanf
10:09:01  but since he had a de_ locale set, the software couldn't parse it
10:09:27  lifthrasiir: wtf
10:09:36  that sounds strange
10:10:13  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "fi_FI"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:10:15  12340000,56
10:10:29  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_DE"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:10:31  12.340.000,56
10:10:41  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_CH"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:10:41  I remember seeing "Jan 1" formatted by some program that attempted localization as "1. Januaryta" -- en:January is fi:tammikuu, and for the date the month needs to be in the partitive case, so "tammikuuta", and apparently the program somehow managed to add the Finnish suffix to the English month name.
10:10:42  12'340'000.56
10:11:00  locales are fun .
10:12:05  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_AU"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:12:07  12340000.56
10:12:12  hm
10:12:15  is it de_AU?
10:12:32  or AT
10:12:33  probably AT
10:12:41  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_AT"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:12:42  12340000,56
10:13:17  So you've got periods for de_DE, 's for de_CH and no separator at all for de_AT? Good.
10:13:18  so germany has dots and comma, switzerland has apostrophes and dot and austria has nothing and comma
10:13:32  Oh, I didn't notice one of them had period for the decimals too.
10:13:39  Very nice.
10:14:06  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "it_IT"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:14:08  12340000,56
10:14:16  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "it_CH"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:14:18  12'340'000.56
10:14:26  fizzie: yes, that kind of mixed language thing happens when a program has messages for a certain language but uses system locale for other languages. The most common such symptom ime is message boxes with an English message and Hungarian labels on the yes/no/cancel buttons.
10:15:05  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "fr_FR"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:15:07  12 340 000,56
10:15:15  ok
10:15:23  so the frenchs are more loke the fins
10:15:29  I have seen dates in a language mixed with text in a different language, but not a case where the program tried to attach an affix to it.
10:16:00  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "jp_JP"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:16:02  12340000.56
10:16:09  hm
10:16:11  damn
10:16:15  no kanjis?
10:16:41  mroman: not from a plain printf. 
10:16:48  (that would be a bad idea anyway)
10:17:10  oh
10:17:13  it's ja_JP anyway?
10:17:27  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "ja_JP.UTF-8"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:17:29  12,340,000.56
10:18:29  why
10:18:34  it could use JIS
10:18:39  ``` LANG=ja_JP locale
10:18:40  locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory \ LANG=ja_JP \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="ja_JP" \ LC_NUMERIC="ja_JP" \ LC_TIME="ja_JP" \ LC_COLLATE="ja_JP" \ LC_MONETARY="ja_JP" 
10:18:49  ``` locale -a | grep ^ja
10:18:52  ja_JP.eucjp \ ja_JP.utf8
10:19:10  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_SE"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_FI"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:19:12  12 340 000,56 | 12340000,56
10:19:18  At least there's no difference there.
10:20:04  ``` locale -a | grep FI
10:20:04  fizzie: try a norvegian locale, maybe it writes zeros with more or fewer diagonal slashes
10:20:05  fi_FI \ fi_FI.utf8 \ fi_FI@euro \ sv_FI \ sv_FI.utf8 \ sv_FI@euro
10:20:27  is that "with euro sign"?
10:20:30  :D
10:21:30  I think they might well be identical now.
10:21:32  ``` locale -a | grep ^ch
10:21:33  No output.
10:21:36  They probably were different at some point.
10:21:39  ``` locale -a | grep CH
10:21:40  de_CH \ de_CH.utf8 \ fr_CH \ fr_CH.utf8 \ it_CH \ it_CH.utf8
10:21:48  Or, hmm.
10:22:10  no ch_CH
10:22:12  that sucks :(
10:22:34  ``` locale -a | wc -l
10:22:35  442
10:22:38  there's probably no standard for selecting dialects
10:23:46  üch geits abr no güät.
10:24:04  sv_SE and sv_FI have different currency rules, but I wonder if there are any programs anywhere with different messages for them.
10:24:19  does C even have currency stuff?
10:25:03  Yes, in struct lconv.
10:25:34  that's not in the libc though
10:25:37  It is.
10:25:41  it is?
10:25:47  It is. C11 7.11p2.
10:26:01  oh. C11
10:26:08  Is it in C99?
10:26:20  C99 7.11p2 as well.
10:27:08  I've never used that
10:27:18  Is there a printf char for currencies?
10:27:30  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_SE"); struct lconv *se = localeconv(); printf("%s ", se->currency_symbol); setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_FI"); struct lconv *fi = localeconv(); printf("%s", fi->currency_symbol); }
10:27:31  kr EUR
10:27:44  oh the ' does that
10:28:01  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_CH"); printf("%.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:28:03  12340000.56
10:28:11  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_CH"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:28:13  12'340'000.56
10:28:24  I deduced that ' meant "use delimiters for thousands"
10:28:42  The ' *isn't* part of the standard, of course.
10:29:44  I see.
10:30:03  And ' is "use grouping if locale needs it".
10:30:28  I don't think there's a printf thing for money, which is allowed to use different characters for grouping and decimals.
10:30:58  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "de_CH"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:30:59  12'340'000.56
10:31:05  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "ja_JP"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:31:07  12340000.56
10:31:20  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "fa_IR"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:31:22  ​۱۲٬۳۴۰٬۰۰۰٫۵۶
10:31:25  Fancy.
10:31:51  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "ja_JP.utf8"); printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
10:31:53  12,340,000.56
10:32:02  ``locale -a | grep ja | grep utf
10:32:03  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `locale: not found
10:32:06  fizzie: if you want such fancy formatting, use libicu rather than just the small support in libc and locales
10:32:10  `` locale -a | grep ja | grep utf
10:32:11  ja_JP.utf8
10:32:25  still no kanji though
10:32:31  mroman: ^
10:32:40  also
10:32:47  it should print vertically
10:32:54  of course
10:33:03  a vertical terminal would look weird though
10:33:43  although that should really be a terminal issu
10:33:45  *issue
10:33:48  not a printf issue
10:34:47  incidentally, in Japanese text with digits written as kanji digits (not a read out number with words like "ten" and "hundred" in it) printed vertically, can you write a decimal point or a negative sign or other numeric punctuations, and if so, how?
10:35:26  also bear in mind they count in 10'000
10:35:47  oh
10:35:48  ah
10:35:49  sry
10:35:51  misread :D
10:37:22  I don't even know if they write digits with kanjis
10:38:53  mroman: they do, mostly in vertical writing, because roman digits don't work in vertical writing
10:39:50  mroman: you can see it in street signs advertising prices in Japan, eg 600 yen is written as a kanji 6 followed by two of the circular punctuation followed by the kanji for yen.
10:40:05  so they write 10000$ as 一〇〇〇〇$?
10:40:18  oh ok
10:40:18  Didn't know that.
10:40:21  mroman: in vertical writing, yes, although I don't know how they write dollar
10:40:38  mroman: in horizontal, generally they just use roman numerals
10:40:41  um
10:40:49  s/roman/hindu-arabic/
10:41:01  halfwidth ascii numerals that is
10:41:05  not fullwidth
10:43:19  It would be funny if they indeed used roman numerals
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10:46:45  how does one pronounce roman numerals?
10:46:58  We just learned to read IV as 4
10:47:05  but not how do spell roman numerals
10:48:45  I don't know. I hate roman numerals, and belive they should not be used for anything, 
10:49:17  is 2003 spelled as M M three, or M M I I I or M M unus unus unus or M M tres?
10:49:47  I wish people would stop using them, which has already partly happened since month numbers are almost never written in a roman numeral these days, and clock faces have roman numerals less often, but people still almost always use roman numerals to identify the districts in Budapest.
10:50:14  chapters are often numbered with roman numerals
10:51:23  Admittedly, there _is_ a good reason why districts of Budapest are written in a roman numeral: if you write them with digits in a street address, they are ambiguous with street names that start with a number.
10:52:34  ideally the name of the street should contain enough information to navigate to it without a map
10:53:01  but people back in the days when streets were named fucked that up
10:53:32  mroman: we're very far from that. we have lots of sets of streets in Budapest with identical names, which are distinguished by the district number, or very rarely not even by the district number.
10:53:33  although some countries have systems where streets are named
10:53:40  but blocks and houses
10:53:52  *are not not named
10:54:17  The one I hate the most is "Csömöri út", of which there are two big parallel ones very close to each other.
10:54:53  although today with google maps and smartphones this isn't much of an issue
10:54:54  There are also lots of pairs of prominent streets with not identical but very similar names.
10:55:30  but if I think back to the older days it might have made sense to name streets in a way that people with rough knowledge of the city they live in can navigate to it
10:55:38  mroman: it totally is. there's no easy way to search for a street name together with district number in google maps, unless you already know the postal code
10:55:51  so ambiguous street names pose a problem in google maps.
10:56:07  oh well, street names aren't unique among cities
10:56:18  (that's probably just a bug they should fix)
10:56:24  but they should at least be unique within a city :D
10:56:59  mroman: oh, among towns they're definitely not unique. most small villages, including ones with only one or few streets, have either a Kossuth utca or Kossuth Lajos utca or a Fő utca
10:57:51  You can't quite expect them to be unique within a city because of the history of Budapest where it used to be multiple towns unified at different times, 
10:58:15  but that doesn't explain all the duplications: many dupe street names are new or are close and were in the same town originally.
10:58:27  well then rename streets :D
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11:37:52  @metar CYUL
11:37:52  CYUL 071100Z 31006KT 15SM FEW030 M06/M12 A3031 RMK SC2 SLP267
11:38:01  shovelable weather.
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11:58:04  mroman: We've had lots of street renamings for political reasons, and unlike in the 1980s, lately the government has been an asshole about them, renaming the wrong streets to wrong names in wrong ways.
11:58:26  I don't think we've everd had streets renamed to disambiguate streets that had already had a name.
12:00:03  In particular, when they renamed streets in the 1980s and 1990s, they had left the signs of the old street name up next to the new one for a few years. Now they don't.
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12:38:35  Information theory exam is this evening :(
12:41:44  Taneb: huh? wasn't it a formal languages exam?
12:41:59  b_jonas: that was someone else's that I was helping him revise for
12:42:09  There's a lot of exams this week
12:42:24  ok.
12:45:25  I think I probably ought to learn information theory
12:45:54  Nah, why bother.
12:49:24  a couple of hours before the exam is a good time to remind yourself of those two or three facts that you keep forgetting :P
12:49:52  it's a bad time to figure out what the fuck the course was about
12:50:54  Information is measured in bits.
12:51:59  int-e: the lecturer had a strong accent which I had difficulty understanding, but provided quite detailed notes online, so I decided to stop going to the lectures and do it in my own time
12:52:12  Unfortunately, only three quarters of my actions happened
12:52:18  (I learnt about half the course in my own time)
12:52:27  We had entropy, some coding theory and LFSR?
12:52:39  Yeh, LFSR.
12:52:59  Coding theory is I think next term
12:53:24  not much, just enough to know that there are block codes
12:53:59  I'm not sure we had conv... thingies
12:54:05  convolution codes?
12:54:18  convolutional codes
12:57:46  hmm, you could also move towards data compression (Huffman codes, to begin with)
12:57:53  yeah
12:57:55  we had that too
12:58:12  that's the time I came up with this stupid idea of compressing data by encoding the next occurences of things
12:58:45  well.. not stupid just not as efficient for larger files than what's already being used.
13:00:02 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
13:00:07  hmm, for strings or single letters? if the latter it sounds like a move to front transformation...
13:00:18  single letters
13:00:26  (not exactly the same, but similar in spirit)
13:01:09  the rough idea is
13:01:18  
13:01:56  http://codepad.org/7YhvTZxq
13:02:00  ^- like that
13:02:27  you remove already encoded letters from the buffer
13:02:29  (the connection is that with a MTF transform, a letter gets encoded by the number of distinct letters seen since the previous occurrence of that letter)
13:03:11  which has the effect that letters that were originally too far apart to be encoded as next occurence (if you use n bits you have 2^n lookahead) will come close to each other
13:05:13  (http://codepad.org/i2Z71xxh is the decompression)
13:06:21  if you use two bits for number of occurences and three bits for position
13:06:35  "1. Estimate the information contents of the lecture (in bits)."
13:07:03  then you can encode at best 3 occurences of the same letter within 27 letters
13:07:15  because once you have found a next occurence you start counting from zero again
13:07:56  thus if you encounter a letter s, you can encode three more occurences of the same letter within a range of 27 letters each needing only three instead of 8 bits
13:08:26  i.e. with (2,3) "This is a short sentence" can be compressed by 29 bits
13:08:38  > 192 / 29.0
13:08:40   6.620689655172414
13:08:51  > 29.0 / 192
13:08:53   0.15104166666666666
13:08:58  that's about 15% 
13:09:46  > (2+8+3*3)/(4*8)
13:09:48   0.59375
13:10:43  40.625% is max for (2,3)
13:11:08  at best you can get 87.5%
13:11:16  which wasn't good to me
13:11:38  well you get RLE as a corner case
13:11:58  (n,0)
13:12:04  so I enhanced the compression by adding prefixes that allow to encode more occurences
13:12:18  or prefixes that say "next token has (4,8) instead of (2,3)"
13:12:22  stuff like that
13:13:07  but I managed to compress larger files only by about 50%
13:13:24  where gzip usually at leasts manages 70%
13:13:56  It was fun to play around in the boring lectures, but I haven't found any practical usages :D
13:14:18  still, not bad
13:14:31  It beats RLE.
13:14:37  simple RLE at least
13:14:38  because
13:14:42  with rle stuff like
13:14:52  ABCAABBCAAABCCBABCAB compresses poorly :)
13:15:00  with my idea this compresses fairly well
13:15:43  because once you encoded the A's for example
13:15:51  you end up with BCBBCBCCBBCB
13:16:01  then encode the Bs and you're only left with CCCCC
13:16:13  The reason for bringing up RLE was that it can beat the 1/8 limit (in very special cases, obviously.)
13:17:18  Special cases, hmm... PCX was a quite successful image format.
13:17:21  hm
13:17:22  but
13:17:33  if you use 8 bits for number of occurences, and 1 bit for position
13:17:36  then you have uhm
13:18:00  > (8+8+255*1)/(256*8)
13:18:02   0.13232421875
13:18:23 -!- puckipedia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:18:52  > 1 - 0.875
13:18:53   0.125
13:18:54  "next occurrence of things" reminds me of perfect caching
13:19:37  but yeah, you can't beat the 1/8 limit
13:20:02  1/8 limit?
13:20:06  > (8+8+255*0)/(256*8) -- this would be RLE, getting *very* lucky (runs of length 256)
13:20:09   7.8125e-3
13:20:32  and (8,1) would only be reasonably if you have sequences like ABABABABABABABABABABAAABABABABABABABABABAABABABABABABABABABABAAABABABABABABAAAAAABBBBBABABABABAB
13:20:55  (i.e. worst case for RLE)
13:21:20  worst case for RLE is where my idea would perform pretty much best case :D
13:21:44  except that a smart RLE would switch to encode (AA,AB,BA,BB) in this case
13:22:04  which is something you could do with my method as well
13:22:12  but I've never looked more into that
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13:22:25  you could encode combinations of letters as well, instead of just single letters
13:22:26  and LZ variants would just see a repetition of AB anyway...
13:22:32  Where does the 1/8 figure come from?
13:22:48  basically you'd look how many times c[0] occurs, and how many times c[0],c[1] occurs
13:22:51  FireFly: from having at least 1 bit per offset
13:23:02  if c[0]c[1] occurs more often then you switch to encode multiple letters
13:23:20  but that would make compression pretty slow I think
13:23:49  But if you have say 256 repetitions of a string s, you'd get something like  s(repeat 1)(repeat 2)(repeat 4)...  no?
13:23:58  FireFly: mroman's (n,m) uses m/8 bytes per byte in the best case as n gets large.
13:24:02  Ah
13:24:20  You need at least one bit for every occurence
13:24:25  Okay
13:31:53  I can compress the Orly.jpg by about 15%
13:33:31  > 39 / 47
13:33:33   0.8297872340425532
13:33:42  > 1 - (39 / 47)
13:33:43   0.17021276595744683
13:34:51  > 39576 * 8
13:34:52   316608
13:36:05  well in this case my optimized approach is slighty better than gzip 
13:36:48  (better than gzip -9 )
13:37:55  let me check lena.png
13:39:07  15.8% compression with my algo
13:39:13  no compression at all with gzip o_O
13:39:42  -rw-r--r-- 1 mroman mroman 35222 Jan  7 14:46 lena.gz
13:39:43  -rw-r--r-- 1 mroman mroman 35185 Jan  7 14:44 lena.png
13:39:47  well
13:41:25  http://codepad.org/NmUc324s
13:41:46  It can beat gzip if you use variable length encodings for occurences/positions
13:43:16  that's weird
13:44:36  that's gotta be a bug
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13:49:46  Yeah, bug.
13:49:58  I've never unbugged the optimized version as it seems.
13:56:02  I reversed a compression format some time ago with opcodes for things like "copy x bytes verbatim" or "copy x bytes from history at offset -d", but also interestingly a "copy x bytes verbatim interspersed with null bytes"
13:56:12  First time I see that
13:57:42  oh cute
13:58:26  ascii to utf-16...
13:59:26  (windows executables are full of utf-16 strings)
14:01:14 <\oren\>  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_SE"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_FI");
14:01:17 <\oren\>                 printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:01:39 <\oren\>  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_SE"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_FI");  printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:02:33 <\oren\> RRRGH
14:02:46  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_SE"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "sv_FI");  printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:03:08  12 340 000,56 | 12340000,56
14:04:05  int-e: yeah, or just compressing sequences of low 16-/32-bit ints
14:04:19 <\oren\> ok, so why does sweden have spaces, while finnish swedish has no-break spaces?
14:04:26  Good question
14:04:44  They should probably be non-breaking in both cases
14:04:55  breaking a numeral to multiple lines is just weird
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14:23:35 <\oren\>  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "hi_IN"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_JO");  printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:23:49 <\oren\> `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "hi_IN"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_JO");  printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:23:59  12,340,000.56 | 12,340,000.56
14:24:25 <\oren\> awww, no fancy arabic or devanagari numbers?
14:24:33  ar_JO?
14:24:42 <\oren\> arabic, jordan
14:24:54  ah
14:25:23 <\oren\> i wonder what differs between different arabic countries?
14:25:44 <\oren\> `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_SA"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_EG");  printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:25:50  12340000.56 | 12,340,000.56
14:26:19 <\oren\> huh. saudis don't use thousands commas
14:26:33  12 340 000.56  is my preferred style I think...
14:27:11  or I guess I'd use less than a full space to group thousands
14:27:14 <\oren\> `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "th_TH"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_AE");  printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:27:15  12,340,000.56 | 12,340,000.56
14:27:53 <\oren\> i bet algeria and lebanon use . for , and , for .
14:28:07  \oren\: you need the I flag for that
14:28:29  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "th_TH"); printf("%'I.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_AE");  printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:28:30  12,340,000.56 | 12,340,000.56
14:28:36 <\oren\> `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "DZ"); printf("%'.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_LB");  printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:28:38  12340000.56 | 12,340,000.56
14:29:15 <\oren\> `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_DZ"); printf("%'I.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "ar_LB");  printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:29:17  12,340,000.56 | 12,340,000.56
14:29:50 <\oren\> huh? really. apparently france didn't rub off on them too badly
14:29:56  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "th_TH"); printf("%'I.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "fa_IR");  printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:29:58  12,340,000.56 | ۱۲٬۳۴۰٬۰۰۰٫۵۶
14:30:04  Fancy
14:30:05  \oren\: right, not only do they break hard eggs on the wrong end, they also write numbers wrong
14:30:07 <\oren\> NICE
14:30:23  but fa_IR is the only locale I've found so far where I does something.
14:30:34  huh? what the heck does the flag I mean in there?
14:30:40  b_jonas: are you little endian or big endian?
14:30:56  Is I locale-dependent format or something?
14:31:07  int-e: little-endian. definitely. 
14:31:10 <\oren\> `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "th_TH"); printf("%'I.2f | ", 12340000.56); setlocale(LC_ALL, "hi_IN");  printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:31:10  big-endian sucks. 
14:31:11  wait 'I
14:31:12  12,340,000.56 | १२,३४०,०००.५६
14:31:32  b_jonas: also, from which end do you peel a banana?
14:31:37 <\oren\> hindi with I gives you fancy devanagari numbers
14:31:43  b_jonas: I'm talking about eggs, of course.
14:32:43 <\oren\> what;s the coide for Urdu?
14:32:45  int-e: I don't have a definite opinion about banana opening. 
14:33:09  int-e: see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientation
14:34:12 <\oren\> `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "ur_PK");  printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
14:34:14  12,340,000.56
14:34:24  also it seems to be poorly documented
14:34:30  I can't find it anywhere on gnu.org
14:34:45  http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Integer-Conversions.html#Integer-Conversions
14:34:45 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
14:34:50  I expected it to be mentioned here somewhore
14:34:55  or under floating points
14:34:56  but it's not
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14:35:07 <\oren\> I always open a banana from the non-stem end
14:35:15 <\oren\> then put it into a blander
14:35:23 <\oren\> s/lan/len
14:36:03 <\oren\> toilet paper shouldn't even come in a cylinder
14:36:16   REF (flag_i18n), /* for 'I' */\
14:36:17 <\oren\> it should be in fanfold
14:36:20  but it's there in the glibc
14:36:53  _i18n_number_rewrite
14:36:57  which invokes this
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14:37:44  b_jonas: I like that the article ends with a reference to Knuth.
14:38:39  outdigit = _NL_CURRENT (LC_CTYPE, _NL_CTYPE_OUTDIGIT0_MB + n);
14:47:01  __mempcpy (__mempcpy (__mempcpy (newp, file->filename, filenamelen),
14:47:06  that looks complicated af
14:47:14  "Toilet paper orientation is often mentioned as a hurdle for married couples."  hmm
14:47:38  Hah.
14:49:18  ooh, are we talking about the best Wikipedia article?
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14:58:21 * ais523 sees a process called "aptd" running during an update
14:58:25  apt has a daemon now?
14:58:52  apparently so, its job seems to be permissions checks on package operations
14:59:25  "aptd  allows  to  perform  package management tasks, e.g. installing or removing software, using a D-Bus interface." ... sounds useless
15:00:06  d-bus does have valid uses, but I'm not sure that's one of them
15:00:56  to me it only serves to make software less predictable (read: "smarter")
15:02:46  well, something like unity relies on d-bus to get information about the running programs
15:08:56  OOP spelled backwards is POO
15:09:03  
15:09:30  ow
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15:53:09  ais523: wait, I found something strange. 
15:53:16  ais523: M:tG card Charmed Pendant. 
15:53:52  from Odyssey, has a mana ability that reveals hidden info in itself, same as Selvala
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15:54:42  ais523: also Deranged Assistant from Innistrad but at least that one adds a known amount of mana
15:55:54  And Millikin, from Odyssey too. Why are there so many of these?
16:00:06 -!- mauris__ has joined.
16:00:23  Incidentally, although this doesn't cause rules problems, Wheel of Sun and Moon can also be used (not only Lich's Mirror) to put cards into a library at mana ability speed.
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16:28:31  [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Smurfix *  New user account
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16:30:31  [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46095&oldid=46068 * Smurfix * (-1) de-apostrophied
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17:00:59  ais523: syn
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17:20:24  I think DBus for desktop notifications makes some amount of sense.
17:22:50 -!- augur has joined.
17:23:04  I think our workstations at the university used aptd to allow us to install what we needed without having to allow overall system-administration access, or general "sudo apt-get" privileges.
17:23:24  Incidentally, I noticed they had recently changed apt-get to drop privileges when it shows the changelog.
17:23:46 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:23:57  This wasn't the case while I was at the university; you could "sudo apt-get changelog foo" and then just "!sh" out from the less it spawned.
17:24:20  (In a previous installation, where they were trying to use a sudoers file that allowed apt-get to do the same sort of limited software-installation privileges.)
17:24:54 * izabera didn't know that less had !sh
17:25:05  or !
17:25:40  Apparently plain '!' is already a shell, but anyway, that.
17:25:47  I've only used the '!foo' form.
17:26:07  I wonder what the aptd stuff does if you tell it to install a package over DBus, and it has to ask you a question.
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17:45:27  b_jonas: I'm here, sorry, and saw what you said
17:45:30  just didn't have a reply
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18:17:41  is there a way to copy a file descriptor?
18:17:46  not like dup()
18:21:13  i want to learn this stuff but i don't even know where to start
18:23:29  http://www.mikescher.com/blog/1/Project_Euler_with_Befunge
18:45:24  izabera: If not like dup, then like what? 
18:45:55  like if i read from fd1 i don't want the position to change in fd2
18:47:20  Then, no, that's not possible in general. (What if it's a socket or a pipe?)
18:47:46  well i know that
18:48:22  If it's a file, you can open the same file again. Very non-portably, /proc/$pid/fd/$N could help you find it if you don't remember what it was.
18:49:03  so i open it again, with the same flags, and then seek to the current offset
18:49:04  gotcha
18:49:33  i was just hoping it'd be possible to copy the internal file descriptor structure
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19:20:03  I've never seen an imperative language with Prolog-like rules instead of functions
19:23:56  are you just doing X + prolog until you find an interesting one?
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19:40:06  [freenode-info] channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? Please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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20:19:04  Are there any fixities beyond Prefix, Postfix, Infix, Circumfix, Postcircumfix, Precircumfix, and Incircumfix
20:19:04  ?
20:19:44 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:19:46  I hope not, that's starting to sound dirty already.
20:20:15  i don't even know what the last ones are
20:21:13  izabera: postcircumfix is a[b] or a.(b), that sort of thing
20:21:24  precircumfix is presumably the mirror image of that
20:21:30  and incircumfix is something that hppavilion[1] made p
20:21:31  *made up
20:21:54  ais523: I didn't make it up
20:22:00  x?y:z is incircumfix
20:22:11  And so is x[y]z, which is one notation for the Hyperoperations
20:22:13  hppavilion[1]: then what's x?y(z)  ?
20:22:51  ais523: That is actually x OR y(z), where y(z) is function application, which may or may not be an operation
20:23:11  ? being random selection in this case, though it could certainly mean something else
20:23:21  hppavilion[1]: no, I mean what's its fixity
20:23:29  ais523: It's not a single operator
20:23:42  hppavilion[1]: suppose it is a single operator
20:23:48  say it's some esolang's notation for x?y:z
20:24:01  ais523: Otherfix
20:24:16  bugfix
20:24:17  xD
20:24:27  infix->circumfix?
20:25:17  I suppose Appfix
20:25:38  Not for x?y(z), but as a fixity
20:26:46  this is starting to look like c code written by a drunk monkey
20:39:38  ais523: I think that's probabl x?(y(z)) where x? is a function name
20:39:49  ais523: in ruby, function names can end in ? or ! or =
20:40:03  and the syntax has some crazy irregular rules for everything
20:41:01  at least, that's what it looks like to me
20:41:17  or else it could be x ? (y(z)) where ? is an infix operator
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20:50:18  Duplifix.
20:50:47  It's one of the "positional categories of affixes" table entries in Wikipedia. It's not talking about operators, mind you.
20:51:06  Prefix, suffix/postfix, suffixoid/semi-suffix, infix, circumfix, interfix, duplifix, transfix, simulfix, suprafix, disfix.
20:52:56  `` words 20 | sed -re 's/( |$)/fix\1/g'
20:52:58  parumfix rftfix villfix olenicfix guibilifix ordamanirvifix cbadornerefix obernofix volutfix aucerdenkofix magnafix tinfix broadfix bergafix caseymafix exterfix samunufix runcifix fidtfix tralefix
20:53:27  Just as believable.
20:53:38  Especially exterfix.
21:01:26  broadfix could definitely be a thing
21:10:31  Willfix and wontfix.
21:27:37  I just realized
21:27:56  One could treat (x) as a circumfix operator that returns its argument
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22:01:27  Yeah, I implemented parentheses as a circumfix identity operator in a toy language I created once
22:01:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:02:16  I could see that approach being useful in things like Agda with mixfix operators/functions too
22:08:31  I suppose one could also treat , as an operator, as in [x, y, z]
22:08:45  A minimum-precedence operator that builds arrays
22:09:07  And [] takes such an array and turns it into a list
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22:16:39  Eh.
22:16:42  Maybe
22:17:10  In Python , is an operator, but [a,b,c] is separate from that
22:23:16  pretty sure , isn't an operator?
22:23:59  like  3,2  is an exprlist, not an expr  https://docs.python.org/2/reference/grammar.html
22:24:11  and you can't overload it they way you have __add__, __mul__...
22:24:20  print('.'),
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22:35:39  Hm
22:36:15  I thought it was a tuple-forming operator (but not overloadable), guess that's not how it works
22:44:29  C has a proper operator called ',', but most commas in C source probably aren't instances of it, because there are also commas in argument, initializer and declarator lists (among others), which are more common.
22:48:39  And Forth has a , word that's (presumably) chosen because it makes lists like  123 , 456 , 789 ,  look somewhat natural.
22:50:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
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22:52:35  Oh right, I think Qt overload the comma operator in C++ for its list type to append elements to a list, too
22:52:43  Which is pretty horrible, but still
22:53:31  An overloaded comma operator no longer has the sequence point properties of the real comma.
22:53:55  The language I'm currently working on is called Irgex :)
22:54:07  doesn't it get some of those properties through argument evaluation when each comma operator is a function call?
22:54:11  It's basically Regex generalized to the level of TCness, or at least that's the pan
22:55:40  olsner: I guess, but the evaluation order isn't specified.
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23:22:56  I never remember what the comma operator in C does.
23:23:22  @metar ENVA
23:23:22  ENVA 072250Z 11009KT CAVOK M15/M20 Q1007 RMK WIND 670FT 10010KT
23:23:25  if (something) expr1 , expr2;          ==       if (something) { expr1; expr2; }
23:23:30  "The left operand is evaluated as a void expression; there is a sequence point between its evaluation and that of the right operand. Then the right operand is evaluated; the result has its type and value."
23:23:57  i think the airport is a bit colder than here
23:24:19  @metar EFHK
23:24:19  EFHK 072320Z VRB01KT CAVOK M28/M30 Q1015 NOSIG
23:24:24  That's getting ridiculous.
23:24:39  @metar EGLL
23:24:39  EGLL 072320Z AUTO 21007KT 9999 NCD 03/00 Q1000 NOSIG
23:24:45  @metar ENRO
23:24:45  ENRO 072250Z AUTO VRB02KT 9999NDV OVC008/// M22/M24 Q1001
23:24:59  darn helsinki beats røros
23:25:20  (røros is the default "cold as ..." place in norway.)
23:25:33  It's colder in Helsinki than it is in some parts of Lapland at the moment.
23:25:52  @metar ENSB
23:25:53  ENSB 072250Z 11014KT CAVOK M11/M17 Q1021 RMK WIND 1400FT 09020KT
23:25:58  @metar EFRO
23:25:59  EFRO 072320Z AUTO 32007KT 9999 FEW019 BKN080 BKN100 M26/M28 Q1006
23:26:02  svalbard is warmer :P
23:26:11  rovaniemi?
23:26:14  Yes.
23:26:54  @metar NZSP
23:26:55  NZSP 072250Z 13005KT 9999 SCT030 M29/ A2851 RMK CLN AIR 13004KT ALL WNDS GRID SDG/HDG
23:26:59  It's not really a "cold as ..." place, but it's the standard "the northernmost place that has lots of people in it" place, I'd say.
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23:28:40  the south pole seems to have no dew point
23:28:47  balmy summer temps
23:29:00  They broke the all-time electricity use record in Finland today.
23:30:49  And also measured -41.1 degrees in Muonio.
23:31:15  I don't know if there are any airports nearby, and many places have already started getting warmer, I think -- the whole country's supposed to, in the next days.
23:32:02  @metar EFET
23:32:03  EFET 072320Z AUTO 00000KT 2200 -SN OVC027 ///// Q////
23:32:19  Well, there's apparently no temperature at all in Enontekiö.
23:32:50  is there any air pressure?
23:33:05  maybe they have a vacuum problem.
23:33:05  I think that would've been the Q//// field.
23:33:11  Seems that way.
23:33:29  No wind, either.
23:33:37 -!- boily has joined.
23:33:40  Still some clouds in the sky, though.
23:33:54  brrohily
23:36:30  *munch* *munch* rjan
23:36:47  (there's a sandwich in my mouth)
23:39:35  whoa whoa whoa
23:39:38  Undertale is TG.
23:39:54 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
23:40:42  *munchaf*
23:40:56  what's undertale, and why are they transgender?
23:41:13  boily: baron munchausen?
23:41:30  boily: it's a game at http://undertale.com/ , and it's too good.
23:43:02  baron munchausen had an operation?
23:43:14  pixels! must resist the appeal...
23:43:37  boily: what you must resist is spoilers
23:43:52  this is a very spoilable game. don't make the mistake i did. just don't read anything about it.
23:45:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:47:16  I'll continue what I'm doing, and having had the tab closed since a few bites ago, I'm at no reasonable risk of being spoiled.
23:47:24  hppavellon[1].
23:47:30  @metar CYUL
23:47:30  CYUL 072300Z 00000KT 15SM FEW120 SCT160 BKN240 M01/M06 A3028 RMK AC2AC1CI2 SLP256
23:47:36  -1. not so bad.
23:58:19  Wel.
23:58:21  *Well.
23:58:39  Well?
23:58:47  The wiki article on Al-Qaeda has a section titled "Criticism"

2016-01-08:

00:01:06  ISIS even has "Criticism and controversy"
00:01:18  I don't think it counts as "Controversy" when you're a rogue nation
00:01:30  I think it counts as "Universal drive to destroy"
00:01:41  I don't know of many people who aren't anti-ISIS.
00:01:47  ISIS/ISIL
00:02:34  ("because they're unambiguously evil")
00:04:01  I would like to found DGAFSIWWW. Don't-Give-A-Fuck State on the Internet and World Wide Web.
00:06:49  shachaf: I watched a couple of hours of streams, one of which had reminders to stop watching before playing it every half an hour.
00:07:12  fizzie: Did you take its advice after a couple of hours?
00:07:22  No, I watched everything.
00:12:28  boily: So I'm making a programming language that has the goal of being a glorified Regex
00:12:43  Along with parts based on s/// syntax
00:13:58  I've decided on part of the syntax: for example, to replace "dog" with user input in a file, one would add the filename to the opened_files program variable, then would use this line:
00:15:04  rf// -> s/dog/(input/)/ -> wf//
00:15:10  fizzie: did you see http://i.imgur.com/hLM7hIX.png
00:15:38  Which is equivalent to wf//(s/dog/(input/)/(rf//))/
00:15:44  hppavilion[1]: it sounds strangely similar to ///.
00:15:59  boily: That's not the whole language; it's just the part called alpha expressions
00:16:27  Also, s/// isn't the only alpha expression you can use
00:16:31  As you just saw
00:16:38  And it uses currying in alpha expressions :)
00:17:34  shachaf: Yes.
00:20:17  shachaf: In other words, I did watch through a genocide run.
00:21:09  fizzievil
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00:29:18  `unidecode �
00:29:20  ​[U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
00:29:38  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "fi_FI"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
00:29:44  12340000,56
00:30:01  `unidecode  
00:30:02  ​[U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE]
00:34:42  TIL Finnish number formatting is strangely similar to French.
00:35:07  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "no_NO"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
00:35:08  12340000.56
00:35:10  maybe Finnish is French.
00:35:18  ...since when do we use periods
00:35:28  that's not what i learned in school :(
00:35:39  maybe it isn't no_no?
00:35:42  oh hm
00:35:43  LC_ALL=no_NO_NO!
00:35:55  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "no_BM"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
00:35:56  12340000.56
00:35:57  they wanted to set me the locale but I said no_no_no ♪
00:36:08  gah what is it again
00:36:42  ny_NO?
00:36:49  boily: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90VCKVDXQwY
00:37:01  oerjan: nn_NO or nb_NO.
00:37:11 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
00:37:14  For Nynorsk and Bokmål, respectively.
00:37:24  shachaf: BWAH AH AH :D
00:37:25  `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "nb_NO"); printf("%'.2f", 12340000.56); }
00:37:26 <\oren\> `cc #include  \n int main(void) { setlocale(LC_ALL, "nn_NO");  printf("%'I.2f", 12340000.56); }
00:37:27  12340000,56
00:37:27  12340000,56
00:37:34  ok that's better
00:37:55  oerjan: by the way, which side are you on usually twh
00:38:43  boily: It's also different from s/// in that alpha expressions are nestable
00:38:51 <\oren\> i thought bokmål was how it's written and nynorsk was the spoken form?
00:39:06  boily: the left side hth
00:39:27  \oren\: no, they're both written forms.
00:40:35  theoretically, neither has an official spoken version, but there at least used to be standard pronunciation in the national broadcaster
00:40:46  (NRK)
00:41:06  so you write and speak venstrenorsk. makes sense.
00:41:37  which is more or less western oslo for the bokmål and sogn og fjordane dialect for the nynorsk
00:42:02  (western oslo being the posh part)
00:42:52  boily: bokmål, usually, like 90% (?) of norwegians.
00:46:53  oerjanstrenorsk
00:55:31   At least there's no difference there. <-- actually there were, the spaces are different utf8 chars
00:56:06  for some reason my browser displays one of them as a box
00:59:38  Well, that's just silly.
01:04:02  Seems that fi_FI and sv_FI opt for the non-breaking space, while sv_SE uses just plain space.
01:04:27  I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't due to any sort of official standards, just whatever whoever random guy made the locales happened to go with.
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03:04:54  `? program
03:04:57  A program is an image created by means of prography.
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03:05:30  `ls
03:05:33  ​:-( \ (* \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ butwhatifichangesomething \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dict-words \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ loudly é \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
03:05:51  `cat loudly é
03:05:57  ​é
03:06:05  `loudly é
03:06:07  ​é
03:06:24  I wonder if the neural net is capable of learning `loudly stuff.
03:11:02 <\oren\> Hmm... it only requires O(1) space
03:11:21 <\oren\> er, wait
03:11:27 <\oren\> O(n) space
03:12:14 <\oren\> ok so I think it can probably learn that sometimes Hackego writes in loudly format
03:12:25  `rm loudly é
03:12:29  No output.
03:12:48  `` cat bu*
03:12:49  No output.
03:13:00  `` rm bu*
03:13:03  No output.
03:13:15  `culprits butwhatifichangesomething
03:13:16 <\oren\> `` cat butwhatifichangesomething
03:13:18  cat: butwhatifichangesomething: No such file or directory
03:13:19  oerjan zgrep
03:14:11  `ls dict-words
03:14:12  dict-words
03:14:18  `file dict-words
03:14:19  dict-words: assembler source, UTF-8 Unicode text
03:14:32  `` grep dict- bin/*
03:14:36  No output.
03:14:47 <\oren\> `butwhatifichangesomething
03:14:47  `ls share
03:14:48  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: butwhatifichangesomething: not found
03:14:48  8ballreplies \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello2.c \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
03:15:03  `` mv dict-* share
03:15:06  No output.
03:15:14  \oren\: protip, i just deleted it
03:15:22 <\oren\> oh
03:15:38 <\oren\> wait what? oh
03:15:55 <\oren\> OOOOOOOOOH
03:16:09   `culprits works even if it has been deleted
03:16:14  hm...
03:16:24  `culprits nosuchthingever
03:16:26  No output.
03:16:59  ok, so it works even if it has never existed too
03:17:45 <\oren\> hmm. maybe the descnders on wide latin look weird yagajaqap
03:17:51  `ls src
03:17:52  brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ u8tbl.c \ ul.emm
03:18:34  `file share/hello
03:18:35  share/hello: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, BuildID[sha1]=0xa19cb2ef532bda400dc788c2a489ae39a14ceaec, stripped
03:18:37 <\oren\> yah I should shorten the ascneder and fix that
03:18:47  `? yagajaqap
03:18:48  yagajaqap? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:19:09 <\oren\> it has descendered letters next to a’s
03:23:44  \oren\: I think it'll be able to learn that `loudly is what prompts the loudly format.
03:24:09  Interestingly, the net seemed to learn that bots respond to bot-commands *before* it learned which things go with which bot.
03:24:25 <\oren\> aha
03:24:28 <\oren\> awesome
03:24:33  So if anyone did a `learn or a @tell or anything, you'd randomly get a response from HackEgo or lambdabot.
03:24:49  Even now, every so often someone will do a `le/rn which causes lambdabot to say "Consider it noted."
03:27:03  There are some things which the net pretty much never gets right, and never will.
03:27:19  When someone does a `?, HackEgo will respond with a wisdom entry, but it will never be the correct one.
03:27:43  Wait, `? doesn't tell you the name of the entry you requested.
03:28:12  Okay, when someone does `learn or `le/rn, it will always echo back the entry name incorrectly.
03:29:37 <\oren\> `?
03:29:38  ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:29:46 <\oren\> `wisdom
03:29:48  wlcom/Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: . (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)
03:29:56 <\oren\> `wisdom
03:29:58  foe/the foe is the Field-On Enemy
03:30:04 <\oren\> `wisdom
03:30:06  haar measure/A Haar measure is what Dutch people use to find out how long their hair is.
03:30:11 <\oren\> `wisdom
03:30:13  hthyh/"hthyh" is a common typo for "tithe".
03:30:21 <\oren\> `wisdom
03:30:23  fisdom/fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station.
03:30:27 <\oren\> `wisdom
03:30:29  ostrich/Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
03:30:39 <\oren\> `wisdom
03:30:41  languabe/Languabes are edible and fun. They provide a quick implementation energy boost!
03:30:45 <\oren\> `wisdom
03:30:47  0/702 matching entries found.
03:30:50 <\oren\> `wisdom
03:30:53  jwinslow23/JWinslow23 is not here.
03:30:56 <\oren\> `wisdom
03:30:58  mockingbird/mockingbird is watching you.. closely! Is it mocking you? Probably.
03:31:00 <\oren\> `wisdom
03:31:02  gotton/gotton is a quantum of attention. Solain drives the packet.
03:32:51  HackEgo: Ah, my digital friend, what didst thou wish to speak to me about?
03:33:35  Apparently HackEgo (and other bots too, as I've learned) don't want to talk to me. :(
03:46:49  `wisdom
03:46:51  ​☃/Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go.
03:46:56  `? this
03:46:58  this is a word
03:47:40  this is not a pipe
03:49:00  `learn `? this | this
03:49:04  Learned '`': `? this | this
03:49:19  `? `
03:49:21  ​`? this | this
03:49:31  Oh, whoops
03:49:35  `? this | this
03:49:36  this | this? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:49:43  `unlearn `
03:49:44  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unlearn: not found
03:49:52  Is there a way to unlearn something?
03:50:14 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x261a 0x2620
03:50:15  Segmentation fault
03:50:24 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x261a 0x2620
03:50:25  ​☚☛☜☝☞☟ \ ☠
03:51:52  ☝☝☟☟☜☞☜☞
03:52:08  Wow
03:52:24  apparently 2^^^3 is larger than computers can calculate
03:52:37  I suddenly have a newfound appreciation for graham's number
03:52:44  Computers can calculate it just fine.
03:52:53  > "2" ++ "^^^" ++ "3"
03:52:53 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x232d 0x2335
03:52:55   "2^^^3"
03:52:55  ​⌭⌮⌯ \ ⌰⌱⌲⌳⌴⌵
03:53:16  shachaf: that doesn't work
03:53:20  shachaf: you have to do
03:53:36  > "2^(3^(3^3))"
03:53:38   "2^(3^(3^3))"
03:54:13  > "2" ++ "^" ++ "(" ++ "3" ++ "^" ++ "(" ++ "3" ++ "^" ++ "3" ++ ")" ++ ")"
03:54:14   "2^(3^(3^3))"
03:54:26  > 3 * 2
03:54:27   6
03:54:35  > 2^(3^(3^3))
03:54:41   mueval: ExitFailure 1
03:55:03  Oh, certainly not in base 2 representation.
03:55:14  That's horribly inefficient for numbers like these.
03:55:46 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x21f9 0x21ff
03:55:47  ​⇹⇺⇻⇼⇽⇾⇿
03:57:39 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x2139 0x2139
03:57:40  ​ℹ
03:57:53 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x214f 0x214f
03:57:54  ​⅏
04:00:43 <\oren\> as expected, the wide lowercase with raised middles looks better
04:01:38 <\oren\> but it looks wierd mixed with wide uppercase, but that rarely occurs
04:05:12  `culprits wisdom/`
04:05:15  Elronnd int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull oerjan
04:05:19  ah
04:05:59  `revert
04:06:09  rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
04:06:12  `? `
04:06:13  ​` is the prefix to greatness.
04:06:28  isn't that great
04:07:52   `revert is not `unlearn btw it only reverts the last change
04:08:12  (or back to a given point)
04:08:18  BLAHrevert undoes the last change to wisdom/BLAH
04:08:37  ``revert
04:08:38  ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `revert: not found
04:09:12  also it's not a sandboxed command, so you cannot use it from ``
04:09:13 <\oren\> so yah I pdtduae my http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
04:09:56 <\oren\> I'm excited about being able to use ☠
04:11:00 <\oren\> now I can mark bad code with the simple comment //☠
04:11:15  also that strange error message `revert gives is harmless and fizzie is supposed to fix it.
04:12:20  (or Gregor.  theoretically.)
04:12:35  12 days idle
04:12:42  no one is supposing that fizzie or Gregor will fix it
04:12:53 <\oren\> `unidecode ☠
04:12:54  ​[U+2620 SKULL AND CROSSBONES]
04:13:07 <\oren\> `unicode ☠
04:13:10  U+2620 SKULL AND CROSSBONES \ UTF-8: e2 98 a0  UTF-16BE: 2620  Decimal: ☠ \ ☠ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
04:13:11  shachaf: i see no contradiction hth
04:15:05  \oren\: No offense, but tbh your font is kind of hard to read
04:15:49  \oren\ never claimed it was a font of knowledge.
04:17:32  sure it is, you need a lot of knowledge to understand it hth
04:18:38  oh dear, poor Sam
04:18:44  (freefall)
04:21:41 <\oren\> Elronnd: which letters?
04:22:47  \oren\: well, I guess I wouldn't say any letters in particular are hard to read
04:23:11  it's just that the font as a whole... while attractive, isn't something that's clear or easy enough for me to use on a day-to-day basis
04:25:44 <\oren\> Well yeah most of the letters are in a radical geometric sans-serif form... like more radical than futura. So yeah, it disrupts the part of people
04:26:01 <\oren\> 's brains that are expecting normal letterforms
04:29:45 <\oren\> the main point when I originally designed it was to make my terminal look like I'm from 2100
04:30:19 <\oren\> by using ideas from a font from 1927. history is weird
04:30:37 <\oren\> aesthetics are also weird
04:36:21 <\oren\> well I also have a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a
04:36:23  [wiki] [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46096&oldid=46081 * 114.78.111.34 * (+78) /* P */
04:36:43 <\oren\> so that was also an initial motivation
04:45:24  `? oren
04:45:25  oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
04:45:45  `learn_append oren He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a.
04:45:48  Learned 'oren': oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a.
04:48:28  `? Elronnd
04:48:30  Elronnd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:49:18  TOO SOON
04:51:31  `learn Elronnd ...
04:51:33  Learned 'elronnd': Elronnd ...
04:51:35  `? Elronnd
04:51:36  Elronnd ...
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05:50:56  Morning
05:52:05  oerjan: hehehe (re: freefall
05:52:06  )
05:56:05  5.7280580892384145e-9
05:56:39  ?????
06:01:45 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:02:17  Haneb
06:02:42 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
06:02:45  I've just had a marvelous idea
06:02:46  CMD++
06:02:56  A command line for windows
06:02:57 <\oren\> I'm tring to find an embark spot with a waterfall
06:03:01  THAT'S ACTUALLY GOOD
06:03:23  *-^_^-*
06:03:25 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: Powershell?
06:03:29  (mind blown)
06:03:35  \oren\: No.
06:03:43  hppavilion[1]: Just port zsh to windows
06:03:53  Elronnd: OR make a completely new shell
06:04:07  no need
06:04:20  all the existing shells are good enough
06:04:20  Elronnd: It's more fun that way
06:04:32  Elronnd: But I find making a new shell 10000000000000000000000000 times more fu
06:04:35  *fun
06:05:01  what language will it be written in?
06:05:06  r
06:05:18  Elronnd: r?
06:05:28  Sorry, typo
06:05:30  Ah
06:05:35  You probably shouldn't write a shell in r
06:05:50  Elronnd: I'm thinking a prototype in python followed up by a C-based full version
06:06:06  Elronnd: that sounds like a great reason to write a shell in r
06:06:22  hppavilion[1]: be warned: python uses /bin/sh for os.system()
06:06:36  Elronnd: ?
06:06:46  I'm not using os.system()
06:07:00  I was just cautioning you *against* using it
06:07:03  I'm talking about the command-line language; not just the window xD
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06:07:11  Elronnd: Ah. Well, I won't.
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06:08:44  Elronnd: Luckily, I already wrote a parser using PLY that does pretty much a full BASH-like shell (featurewise, not syntaxwise. Just for individual commands, not a full file thing)
06:09:03  "PLY"?
06:09:13  Elronnd: Python Lexx/Yacc
06:09:46  s/lexx/flex
06:09:50  So what makes a CLI good?
06:09:52  s/Yacc/bison
06:10:13  hppavilion[1]: curses!
06:10:16  Elronnd: PLY was what was available to me, and it worked well. Don't need a holy war over what type to use
06:10:27  Elronnd: curses? As in...?
06:10:32  the curses library
06:11:04 * Elronnd 
06:11:05  e
06:11:18 * Elronnd points and curses at keyboard
06:12:34  Elronnd: I think I'll make it support Unicode, for starters
06:13:04  What should I call the shell?
06:13:30  λsh? ASCIIc: \sh
06:13:40  Ooh! Ooh!
06:13:49  I could make it support functional programming!
06:14:01  backsla\sh
06:14:13  sounds like a good name for shells
06:14:47  Wait, I already named it CMD++ xD
06:14:55  But I might rename it to λsh
06:17:47  lamb-dash
06:23:10 * oerjan is slightly worried whether anyone remembered Agatha's weasel in the confusion
06:27:56  hm also, which princess?
06:29:52  oh, maybe it's the king's daughter who hoffman was supposed to marry
06:30:13  it would make sense if she didn't approve of the plan
06:30:35  *hoffmann
06:32:57  other, very bad option: clank princess anevka
06:33:02  lamb-duh
06:34:43  the lamb-duh calculus, for people not impressed by functional programming
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06:36:55  or does colette count?  the master doesn't call himself king...
06:42:56  repre = allf $3?>. | map {replace $1 $2} #0
06:43:13  (repre is similar to sed, if I know my unix correctly)
06:43:21  That's just an approximation, of course
06:43:55  In fact, I think it's more like repre = allf $3?>. | map {replace $1 $2} #0 > #0
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06:45:24  oerjan: Does that syntax look acceptable?
06:46:21  no idea what it even means.
06:47:35  $ references an argv, the ?> operator is alternation (if the previous statement fails, do this instead), . is the cwd, | is pipe (I think I changed it to |>, actually), map is, of course, map, {...} forms an lambda, replace takes three arguments (from, to, in -> s/from/to/ over in) and # references piped-over variables, specifically with #0 representing the full list. And, of courses, > redirectes to a file, clobbering its 
06:47:35  content.
06:47:47  oerjan: There. Explanation.
06:48:22  Oh, and allf lists all files in a given directory
06:52:38  your lambdas have a distinct lack of parameters tdnh
06:52:54  oerjan: ...
06:53:06  Shit.
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07:28:51  [wiki] [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46097&oldid=46096 * Mroman * (-78) Undo revision 46096 by [[Special:Contributions/114.78.111.34|114.78.111.34]] ([[User talk:114.78.111.34|talk]]) -- Python is not "esoteric" and has no page on this wiki.
07:32:18  that reminds me
07:34:26  [wiki] [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46098&oldid=46097 * Oerjan * (-14) /* F */ I think the original author has had enough time to make an article for this language I cannot find. Removing.
07:51:48  ais523: more M:tG theory. in typical games, if the player had perfect memory and attention, then except during playing spells, he could know the multisets of identities of cards he owns in all zones, because when a card he owns moves between zones, he can almost always look at it. 
07:52:15  I can think of a few exceptions, mostly related to exiling the top coard of a library face-down
07:52:25  but that is normally true
07:52:36  Exactly: there are some cards that break this: Duplicity, Grimoire Thief, and a few others move cards from your library to exile face down without the owner looking at them.
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07:54:26  As a result, if you put more than one instance of the same card in your deck, it's normally better for your game to use indistinguishable copies, because distinguishable copies (eg. two Giant Growths from different sets) can give your opponent extra information.
07:55:02  But in some of those rare cases with Duplicity etc, it can in theory (not much in practical matches) happen that it's better for your game to have distinguishable copies of the same card in your deck.
07:56:05  This can happen if you exile multiple cards face down from your library, then scry, shuffle, and scry your library. If you see two different Giant Growths from the two scrying, you can tell that you don't have either of them exiled face down.
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07:57:20  Now my rules question for this is. During a game, are you permitted to alter the appearance of cards you own to make them distinguishable (as in, distinguishable even after they're shuffled in the library) when they were previously indistinguishable, or the reverse? And when can you do that?
07:58:06  Similarly, are you permitted to alter the cards this way during a match outside games, or even between matches in a tournament where you must play multiple matches with the same deck?
07:58:30  I presume you aren't permitted to alter the cards you don't own.
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08:00:44  Is the first part of this, altering cards during the game, at least partly a game rules question (as opposed to a tournament rules question)?
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08:02:32 -!- andrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
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08:04:30  And does this question even make sense?
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09:22:26  
09:25:20  is there a :between?
09:26:10  hm
09:26:14  :not(last-child)
09:28:24  seems not to work in firefox
09:28:35  nav ul li:not(last-child):after
09:28:50  or was it ::after
09:29:48  oh it's :not(:last-child)
09:30:23  nav ul li:not(:last-child)::after { content: ' | '; }
09:30:30  I think it's both :after and ::after, but the latter is more modern.
09:30:47  if you want to insert | between two nav links without having it to add to the html
09:30:55  Luckily in practice it's very rare for any player to gain gameplay advantage from distinguishable-after-shuffle copies this way, and the advantage is very slight,
09:31:16  so in practical games I often can and do run distinguishable copies of cards.
09:32:31  I run copies of a conventional basic land with different art, because decks often have lots of copies and they're often on the battlefield and it's nice to have variety in the art (if you've ever played a deck with 11 Coldsnap snow swamps you'll know what I mean).
09:33:00  And for some cards I don't have enough copies of the preferred variant in my collection, so I run different copies in a deck because of that.
09:34:32  hu
09:34:35  is column-count not CSS3?
09:35:52  I could write a blog-post "How to use AWK if you're a madman who learnt to program using Haskell and Piet"
09:36:16  And if someone wants to alter the front of a card during a game, it's most likely with the intent of marking it temporarily within a zone, it just might be physically more convenient to mark it permanently.
09:36:29  ok
09:36:56  does the h* (such as h1,h2) go into a 
09:36:58 or outside? 09:37:12

foo

text

or

foo

... 09:37:15 probably the first 09:37:33 but then you'd need to wrap the p's inside another element to be able to define multi-column 09:37:39 mroman: see examples under http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/semantics.html#the-section-element 09:38:19 and the description there as well 09:38:39 oh there's column-span though 09:38:41 but 09:38:55 multicolumns suck when you resize the window 09:39:07 ideally you'd specify a max-column-count 09:39:18 or something like that and the browser calculates how many 09:39:28 because on a smartphone display having two columns looks like crap 09:40:31 ah firefox doesn't support column-span 09:40:31 Isn't that why you do column-width without column-count? 09:40:33 pff 09:41:22 you mean like uhm 09:41:25 column-width: 40em? 09:41:28 I can try that 09:41:45 ah yeah 09:41:46 nice :D 09:41:48 Thanks. 09:41:49 Something like that. It's the minimum width, and I think the browser's supposed to make as many columns of at least that width as it can fit. 09:43:13 does chromium have webkit? 09:43:16 I need webkit 09:43:20 ff has no column-span 09:44:29 Well, it's got Blink, which is WebKit-based. 09:45:05 So I think the answer is more "yes" than "no". 09:49:09 although generally I think people don't like reading webpages with multi-columns 09:52:53 hm html5 has figures 09:52:58 can you reference figures :D? 09:54:18 hu 09:54:23 I was once at our university library, and happened to glance at a maths journal on the "new journal issues" display table. 09:54:24 firefox uses bing now as default search engine? 09:54:31 Before the table of contents, there was a complicated-looking diagram of something or another, with the caption: "Fig. 1: A fascinating picture." 09:54:39 Yes, they switched the default relatively recently. 09:55:09 Although I thought it was Yahoo they switched to? 09:56:16 Though I guess Yahoo's search results come from Bing. 09:59:14 I like how the want html to be more "semantic" 09:59:15 but 09:59:29 you can't reference things in your document properly 09:59:54 oh wait 09:59:55 hm 10:00:07 scratch that you can 10:00:37 can you do counters with css? 10:01:19 Yes. 10:01:50 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/generate.html#counters in CSS 2.1 -- not sure how that's evolved since then. 10:02:45 yay \o/ 10:03:25 but can you make a link to an element that uses counters 10:05:14 You mean like a proper LaTeX \ref{}, so that it mentions the value in the link? Hmm. 10:05:15 My figures have a counter now 10:05:19 so I can do 10:05:32 figcaption::before { content: 'Fig. ' counter(figures) ': '; } 10:05:40 all figures have also a unique id 10:05:54 now I'd want see figure 10:06:15 yes, @\ref 10:08:25 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:08:28 Heh. All I can find is the "CSS Generated Content for Paged Media Module" draft, which defines what you want (a target-counter() function that takes the counter value by following a link), but doesn't seem to have been implemented anywhere. 10:09:37 You can't access content with css? 10:09:38 or can you? 10:10:45 hm 10:10:47 there's attr though 10:10:48 so 10:10:50 maybe uhm 10:10:58 content(attr(target)) works 10:12:13 hm no 10:12:18 that would just give me the current counter state 10:12:50 As far as I can tell, it's just not something you can do. Although the target-counter function seems to have been picked up by the "CSS Books" WHATWG spec, which probably isn't implemented in browsers either. 10:13:55 The thinking seems to be that you only do cross-references with numbers when you're doing "print". 10:16:12 Also, I like how MDN's documentation on the new sections-and-outlines stuff starts with: "There are currently no known implementations of the outline algorithm in graphical browsers -- the outline algorithm cannot be relied upon to convey document structure to users. Authors are advised to use heading rank (h1-h6) to convey document structure." 10:16:17 So semantic. 10:17:15 I would have liked a general 10:17:29 and the browsers determine the level based on section nesting or something like that 10:17:45 but yeah 10:18:00 I think the whole semantig tag thing is almost useless 10:18:13 that's not the reason people use HTML5 :) 10:18:52 and printing webpages is even more pain in the ass anyway 10:24:12 I don't even know what the status of screen readers is 10:24:21 for example to read mathml or things like that 10:25:57 ChromeVox apparentely supports mathjax output 10:45:55 -!- Trinity has joined. 10:45:55 -!- Trinity has quit (Changing host). 10:45:55 -!- Trinity has joined. 11:11:14 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:22:38 -!- jaboja has joined. 11:33:01 -!- boily has joined. 11:44:45 -!- andrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:50:23 `widsom 11:50:24 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: widsom: not found 11:50:29 `wisdom 11:50:31 metasepia/metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks. 11:51:04 oh, how I wish I could ~metar again... 11:51:09 @metar CYUL 11:51:09 CYUL 081100Z 02007KT 5SM BR SKC M07/M08 A3026 RMK SLP251 11:57:24 -!- AlexR42 has joined. 12:15:04 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:15:31 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WHAMPOA CHICKEN). 12:16:28 -!- aloril has joined. 12:23:26 What happened to metasepia? 12:30:30 Incidentally, video of AGDQ 2016 run of Crypt of the Necrodancer in hard mode is up now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIeYb_vLirQ 12:30:34 worth to watch the game part 12:32:48 -!- AlexR42 has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 12:33:39 -!- AlexR42 has joined. 12:38:15 -!- dondestantman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:44:34 ah! I see 12:44:35 tricky code 12:52:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:05:58 -!- mauris has joined. 13:25:38 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 13:26:49 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:33:29 -!- AlexR42 has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 13:46:39 they want to lecture refugees on how to treat women 13:47:05 refugees/asylum seekers 13:47:24 Sounds fair 13:47:26 If! 13:47:56 we lecture US citizens about gun safety :D 13:55:12 I heard they already lecture asylum seekers on exactly that topic in Finland. 13:55:21 women? 13:55:31 Yes. I don't know if this is true. 13:55:57 I mean, obviously they will do some amount of lecturing on what the country is like, culturally. 13:56:14 And I doubt anyone really objects to that much. 13:56:18 well it makes sense to lecture them about culture and some base laws 13:56:49 and if that means telling them "having sex against someone's will is rape and is a crime" ... I guess that's fine 13:57:24 (technically it'd be only rape if the victim is female but that's a detail) 13:57:31 (let's just use "sexual assault") 13:58:24 It especially makes sense because certain countries allow sex at much younger ages 13:58:40 or marriages at younger ages 13:59:30 [wiki] [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46099&oldid=45925 * Timwi * (+9216) Remove all the subpages with Funciton code and just list the functions here directly. Link to the github repo containing the actual source. 14:01:01 `dateu 14:01:03 2016-01-08 14:01:02.160115000+00:00 14:01:57 [wiki] [[Funciton/Functions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46100&oldid=44342 * Timwi * (-807) Replaced content with "This page can be deleted." 14:02:05 [wiki] [[Funciton/List handling]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46101&oldid=44631 * Timwi * (-71313) Replaced content with "This page can be deleted." 14:02:07 [wiki] [[Funciton/Lazy-evaluated sequences]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46102&oldid=44354 * Timwi * (-83683) Replaced content with "This page can be deleted." 14:02:09 [wiki] [[Funciton/Fundamentals]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46103&oldid=44330 * Timwi * (-5909) Replaced content with "This page can be deleted." 14:02:14 [wiki] [[Funciton/Basic arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46104&oldid=44339 * Timwi * (-22136) Replaced content with "This page can be deleted." 14:02:15 [wiki] [[Funciton/Advanced arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46105&oldid=35281 * Timwi * (-9258) Replaced content with "This page can be deleted." 14:02:17 [wiki] [[Funciton/String handling]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46106&oldid=38070 * Timwi * (-27510) Replaced content with "This page can be deleted." 14:02:19 uhm... 14:03:23 [wiki] [[Funciton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46107&oldid=46099 * Timwi * (+78) /* Fundamentals */ forgot cross-nop 14:06:12 Ah, the function definitions (now omitted) are big. 14:06:52 [wiki] [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46108&oldid=46107 * Timwi * (+283) /* More functions */ Add remaining newest functions 14:16:02 I was thinking about having a github repository called esowiki 14:16:27 which people can easily clone and then do pull requests 14:16:52 and then link to there from the esowiki 14:17:07 rather than using mediafire and whatnot 14:17:30 and all snippets/examples/interpreters would roughly be at the same place 14:18:11 [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46109&oldid=40085 * Timwi * (+193) /* “delete” */ 14:20:59 Meh, I still find this mediawiki behaviour counterintuitive: When you are on a diff page, the active "tab" has a link (here: 'Discussion') that leads to a different page (namely, the current version of that page rather than the diff)... 14:21:13 [wiki] [[Cardinal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46110&oldid=46094 * Timwi * (+6) 14:22:45 because if mediafire shuts down for some copyright related reasons or whatever 14:22:47 these will be lost 14:23:04 it also happens a lot that somebody hosts stuff on personal sites and then it gets lost :) 14:23:16 or uses an upload site that only stores things for a year or so 14:24:08 although according to the external link search and a few tests these mediafire zip files usually contain only an exe of the interpreter :( 14:24:39 mm, mediafire... wtf is wrong with web designers? 14:25:16 you have about one page worth of text... and spread it out to 6 14:25:40 there are 54 mediafire links apparentely 14:25:53 (https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&limit=500&offset=0&target=http%3A%2F%2F*.mediafire.com) 14:26:51 [wiki] [[You are Reading the Name of this Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46111&oldid=43585 * Timwi * (-1) 14:27:57 [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46112&oldid=46098 * Timwi * (+12) /* E */ 14:37:35 -!- spiette has joined. 14:38:24 (I guess I was a bit unfair... at least the site shows some useful contents without Javascript.) 14:45:34 lately I've seen more sites that detect my adblocker and then just don't show me the real content 14:46:52 mroman: I don't see that much, or at least I don't notice that that's why a site doesn't load, but some sites at least seem to deliberately serve ad images faster than the images of the main content 14:47:27 b_jonas: or perhaps you're just mistaken about what the main content is... 14:47:30 This needn't be deliberate, it's possible that the ads are just on an external server that's fast. 14:49:11 huh... lua 5.3 has the bitwise operators have a higher precedence than the comparison operators? HERECY! they don't respect the traditions decreed on us by the prophets K&R. 14:49:28 [wiki] [[Talk:HelloWorld]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46113&oldid=45761 * 205.222.248.69 * (+68) /* Add More */ new section 14:51:34 b_jonas: good for them :) 14:51:58 > 0 == 1 .&. 2 14:52:00 True 14:52:33 bild.de (german newspaper) blocks me for example 14:53:23 disable CSS ;) 14:53:28 although it might also be due to me not allowing third party cookies 14:53:31 I don't really know 14:53:46 seems like deactivating privacy badger and adblock still blocks me 14:54:25 without CSS and Javascript I can read some articles there... isn't that fun 14:55:04 -!- mauris_ has joined. 14:55:10 let me see... for me, http://www.bild.de it puts an overlay covering most of the page saying that the site needs javascript, but if I delete the overlay, I get to see some actual headlines and images stuff under 14:55:47 and with CSS disabled, the "overlay" ends up at the end of the page. 14:56:36 but in any case I'm not really interested in that particular site 14:56:53 similarly, an article http://www.bild.de/sport/wintersport/franziska-hildebrand/holt-heimsieg-in-ruhpolding-44072962.bild.html is covered by the overlay but there's a short article under 14:56:59 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:58:22 funnily enough I probably only need to deactivate javascript 14:59:55 yeah 14:59:56 :) 15:00:03 deactivate javascript 15:00:12 use firebug to remove the stupid