←2016-02-06 2016-02-07 2016-02-08→ ↑2016 ↑all
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00:35:44 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a text editor :)
00:36:02 <hppavilion[1]> The goal is to make one better than Notepad++
00:36:09 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a long way off from that goal xD
00:36:17 <zzo38> How is your text editing working? I just use vi
00:36:29 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Well it can do syntax highlighting
00:36:41 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It uses a JSON-based format for the language files
00:37:11 <hppavilion[1]> Which is /much/ better than Notepad++'s XML
00:37:14 <hppavilion[1]> By definition
00:37:14 <zzo38> I have once made up (but never implemented) a RDF-based syntax for syntax highlighting
00:37:20 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Oooh
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00:39:06 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/syntax_highlighter.example It might not be best way as is, but can be made modifications
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01:20:11 <tswett> You know, I think mouse buttons are a pretty crappy interface.
01:20:26 <tswett> What does a left click mean? It means "select this thing". Or maybe it means "activate this thing".
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01:21:14 <tswett> Double-click means "activate this thing". Or sometimes it's something that doesn't actually support double-clicking; then it means "activate this thing twice".
01:21:40 <tswett> And how about a click and drag? Ooh boy.
01:21:52 <tswett> Sometimes it means "move this thing". Sometimes it means "select all these things".
01:22:18 <tswett> What happens if you're in the middle of a click-and-drag, and you want to cancel it? Sometimes you can hit Escape, but not always.
01:22:35 <tswett> Or what if you want to do something else in the middle of the click-and-drag? Sucks to be you.
01:23:11 <tswett> Except that there are a lot of workarounds that things use in order to allow you to do that stuff.
01:23:53 <tswett> So, how do you scroll? You use the scroll wheel... unless you're clicking and dragging, in which case you move the mouse to the edge of the window.
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01:26:23 <zzo38> I think keyboard is fine
01:26:23 <tswett> How do you switch to a different window? Click on its button in the task bar... unless you're clicking and dragging, in which case you *hover* over the button in the task bar.
01:26:26 <zzo38> I don't use mouse wheel
01:26:47 <zzo38> (I disabled the wheel, and instead just use it as a button)
01:26:48 <tswett> Likewise for opening up a folder in your file browser.
01:27:25 <zzo38> I think the mouse button function in xterm is reasonable
01:29:16 <tswett> Double-click on it, unless you're clicking and dragging, in which case you hover instead.
01:29:39 <tswett> Right-clicking almost always means "open up a menu for interacting with this thing". That's good.
01:29:43 <zzo38> Click and drag is what is worse
01:29:50 <tswett> Middle-clicking... arbitrary miscellaneous actions.
01:30:37 <tswett> Lemme make a list of mouse actions.
01:30:47 <zzo38> I prefer the way it work in UNIX, the Windows way isn't very good. In Athena widget set the scrollbar use left/right button to scroll by amount, middle button moves scroll to the clicked position, I think is a better way
01:31:23 <zzo38> You can also use SHIFT+PAGEUP and SHIFT+PAGEDOWN in xterm too, and SCROLL LOCK can be pushed to stop it from automatically scrolling
01:31:55 <zzo38> Which I think is a reasonable way; it is too bad that Firefox does not do these things.
01:34:27 <tswett> Select this; select up to here; activate this; pick this up; drop this; show me options for this; perform miscellaneous action on this.
01:35:06 <tswett> Ideally, there should also be "hang this", for when you have something picked up, and you want to do something else before dropping it.
01:35:28 <zzo38> Well, I don't like drag/drop, there are better ways
01:36:08 <tswett> What do you mean?
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01:37:05 <zzo38> For example, left button selects it and then you can push the middle button to put in something else
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01:50:19 <oerjan> whew
01:56:55 <zzo38> How can I modify the behaviour of widgets in Firefox?
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02:13:58 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Code, probably.
02:18:20 <hppavilion[1]> So I've got the ELK ASM designed partially
02:19:04 <hppavilion[1]> I have how you do functions down (function call PUSHes the current line index onto the stack then JMPs to the line that starts the function call, return POPs a value and CJMPs to that line)
02:19:35 <hppavilion[1]> So that's functions done, and I think even functional programming can be done with that if you do it right
02:19:46 <hppavilion[1]> But I have NFC how to implement classes
02:20:01 <hppavilion[1]> Like, classes that can be created at runtime and manipulated and such
02:22:55 <oerjan> :t (&&&)
02:22:56 <lambdabot> Arrow a => a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c, c')
02:23:16 <hppavilion[1]> And I do realize that OO isn't classes necessarily (prototypes, duh), but it'd be nice to be able to do classy things
02:23:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: &&&?
02:23:41 <oerjan> categorically so.
02:24:14 <oerjan> (not relevant to anything you were saying)
02:24:18 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah
02:24:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I was just about to ask xD
02:25:13 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do you have any idea how to implement classes- ones that can be thrown around and referenced anonymously and such (first class data, basically)- for a bytecode VM?
02:25:34 <oerjan> no hth
02:25:37 <hppavilion[1]> OK
02:29:53 <zzo38> I found chrome://global/content/bindings/scrollbar.xml but am not quite sure what to do with that
02:31:09 <zzo38> My own designs of instruction set, the return from subroutine call is rather something like "POP PC"
02:33:47 <zzo38> And in QUACKVM the instruction to return from a subroutine call is "PUT ,,STACK"
02:37:30 <zzo38> In 6502 codes, one way to do computed jumps is by the "RTS trick"
02:37:36 <hppavilion[1]> @tell ais523 Complex Minsky Machine.
02:37:36 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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02:42:23 <oerjan> zzo38: that's just pushing the destination to the stack, then calling RTS, no?
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02:44:28 <zzo38> oerjan: That is what it is yes, although the address pushed to stack is actually one less than the actual address
02:44:53 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Oh there you are!
02:45:09 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: So JSR then
02:45:18 * ais523 thinks about the fact that "I'm here" is a tautology, and yet nonetheless a useful statement
02:46:40 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I think you just disproved https://xkcd.com/703/ by counterexample
02:47:48 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: How about the return from a coroutine call? Or a semicoroutine call?
02:47:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: re your lambdabot message, minsky machines have increment and decrement as their basic operations, and those don't get any more interesting when complex numbers are involved
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02:48:07 <hppavilion[1]> Speaking of which, are there any other kinds of routines besides sub and co (where sub is a co)
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02:48:12 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I didn't think it would xD
02:48:17 <ais523> see. the way I make esolangs is
02:48:19 <ais523> you start with an idea
02:48:25 <ais523> then you follow that idea to its logical conclusion
02:48:40 <ais523> you don't add /anything/ that isn't a direct consequence of the idea unless it's needed to make the language usable for programming
02:48:43 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I know, I know. I'm just programmed to spit out any ideas I have.
02:48:53 <ais523> note that this doesn't necessarily lead to a tarpit
02:48:59 <hppavilion[1]> True, true
02:49:05 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
02:49:06 <ais523> most of the commands in Underload are unnecessary in terms of compuational class
02:49:14 <ais523> but you need them in order to make the language work as designed
02:49:23 <ais523> (apart from arguably ~)
02:49:38 <hppavilion[1]> I just thought "Why don't I make a Minsky Machine-based language that is made to look real enough to trick people into using it?"
02:49:44 <hppavilion[1]> Then I rememberd that's ASM
02:49:48 <hppavilion[1]> And that I'm doing that right now.
02:50:32 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: would "A bytecode VM based on graph manipulation" be a good idea to start with?
02:50:49 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: hmm
02:51:04 <ais523> I created an esolang sort-of like that, but started with "all data is stored in one graph"
02:51:11 <ais523> and came up with http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
02:51:44 <ais523> which may hold the record for the unimplemented language with the most failed attempts to implement it
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02:54:53 <\oren\> 至興舎若著蒸蔵蚕衆術裁装裏補製複視覧討訪
02:54:53 <\oren\> 設訳証評詞誌認誕誠誤論諸講謝識警護財貧責
02:57:17 <hppavilion[1]> Is threading better done in-VM, or should it be a syscall thing?
03:07:07 <oerjan> ais523: i am pretty sure Eodermdrome is implemented. in fact the page says so.
03:07:20 <ais523> hmm
03:07:25 <ais523> I don't recall everr having seen the impl
03:07:40 <ais523> did you ever test your eodermdrome program?
03:07:55 <oerjan> i haven't downloaded any interpreters myself
03:08:18 <oerjan> although i do recall someone on channel once saying that it worked
03:08:18 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: How does this look so far to you? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bSUafKLvBMVqv-tPeDj4rk51CtHoIuKCIZprPb0KBdg/edit?usp=sharing
03:08:36 <ais523> it's a google doc, I have to jump through huge hoops to read those
03:09:23 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Oh
03:09:36 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I'll make a LaTeX or something
03:09:43 <oerjan> hm is that jason from foxtrot in that xkcd strip
03:09:43 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Actually, just an HTML
03:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, that'll work
03:10:10 <oerjan> (https://xkcd.com/703/)
03:12:02 <oerjan> explain xkcd seems to think so
03:12:55 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Would a simple html-only (well, also a bit of CSS) webpage work?
03:13:03 <hppavilion[1]> Or are you behind 7 proxies?
03:13:23 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: simpe html-only would work fine
03:13:26 <shachaf> I thought of this as a joke word, but apparently it's a French word: https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/tautologue
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03:13:36 <zzo38> I expect HTML by itself would probably work, or even just plain text
03:13:45 <ais523> I basically have two problems: a) I have Google stuff blocked in my browser; b) I have lots of rich-content (including JS) blocked in my browser
03:13:55 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Ah
03:13:56 <ais523> I have no problems reading HTML on the vast majority of sites though
03:14:11 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I like to arrange things into nice tables, which is a huge pain with plaintext (not THAT huge, but still not fun)
03:14:26 <zzo38> You probably don't even need CSS, although it can be used if necessary
03:14:33 <shachaf> ais523: Why Google?
03:15:01 <ais523> shachaf: partly because they're large enough to correlate a wide range of sites
03:15:19 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I use it for making the table look nice
03:15:20 <ais523> thus information they get from my web browsing is more valuable to them than the equivalent information would be for any other site
03:15:25 <ais523> and thus it costs me more to give it up
03:16:48 <zzo38> Usually the HTML <TABLE BORDER=1> command would work fine I expect
03:17:24 <ais523> hmm, is that even part of modern HTML versions?
03:17:44 <ais523> I have a feeling that the border attribute's meant to be specified using css rather than as an XML/SGML-like attribute
03:18:08 <zzo38> I have had no problem with it
03:18:45 <zzo38> This table is doing so: http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php?do=list
03:18:53 <shachaf> i,i <TABLE STYLE="BORDER: 1">
03:19:16 <ais523> shachaf: IIRC sadly it's not that simple :-(
03:19:30 <ais523> zzo38: most browsers understand all HTML versions including the really old ones
03:20:57 <zzo38> You can use CSS to specify details of the border, but if you just want a border then that is what the BORDER=1 is for, it specify to use the default border if there is no CSS (different browsers and users may have different preference and way to display the default border, so a correct color and width and so on would be chosen to fit with the other defaults)
03:23:06 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I seem to have gone back into development before I'm sending it to you xD
03:23:19 <ais523> :-)
03:23:27 <ais523> keep going until you've reached something you're happy with
03:23:39 <ais523> zzo38: I think the 1 is a number, not a boolean
03:23:46 <ais523> like, border=4 will often give a bigger border I think?
03:23:48 <ais523> not sure though
03:24:08 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Should I give every node a single accumulator, or do you think that defeats the purpose?
03:24:22 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I don't have enough context to understand the question
03:24:28 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Ah, OK
03:24:47 * hppavilion[1] hashes ais523's response to a boolean and treats "True" as yes and "False" as 0
03:24:51 <hppavilion[1]> s/0/no/
03:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> xD
03:25:52 <zzo38> It look it makes the outer border larger if you put high numbers, not the inner border?
03:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll do a pointer-specific stack instead of node registers
03:26:45 <ais523> zzo38: "cellspacing" and "cellpadding" control the details of the inner borer
03:27:02 <ais523> in old HTML versions
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03:28:02 <zzo38> You can ignore those and just use the default though, you can use CSS if you want more control over the table, but usually such thing is not needed
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03:36:39 <ais523> I think most websites do too much CSSing
03:38:23 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Here's what I have so far:
03:38:26 <zzo38> Yes I also think so
03:38:42 <hppavilion[1]> It could and will easily change when I realize that it has major flaws that make no sense
03:39:01 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: And there's some example code, too
03:39:05 <zzo38> But, I have Stylish extension and can use to override the CSS of anything; if the webpage has no CSS already then I find it unnecessary to add some, but if there is some then usually it is wrong
03:39:19 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, whoops
03:41:27 <hppavilion[1]> The only form of conditional I have is FOLLOW, which does nothing if an edge doesn't exist xD. Probably useless, but it might just make Tarpit status
03:41:35 <hppavilion[1]> If I'm lucky
03:44:41 <hppavilion[1]> It's funny how me asking if I should remake the doc in HTML evolved into a discussion about the merits of CSS and stuff xD
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04:01:27 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you're using literals specified in the program for nodes, this means that the number of nodes you can have is limited by the size of the program
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04:04:25 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Oh right...
04:04:27 <hppavilion[1]> Shit...
04:05:13 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: How about "AUTONEWND/PUSH", which creates a new node with the first available ID and pushes its ID onto the call stack?
04:06:25 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: There, 0x09 is PNEWND
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04:19:46 <ais523> right, that's more along the lines you should be thinking
04:19:58 <ais523> I'd probably get rid of any ability to specify numbers manually
04:20:06 <ais523> probably also the pointer
04:20:20 <ais523> and instead have a sort of stack machine where the stack hold nodes
04:20:27 <ais523> and you can perform operations like connect, disconnect, follow, etc. on them
04:20:42 <Sgeo> Well, I scared myself. My AV was scanning, and said it detected something, but wouldn't tell me what it was until the scan finished. Scan finished... it was the EICAR test file
04:23:58 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Perhaps
04:27:38 <pikhq_> Congrats, your antivirus works.
04:30:13 <ais523> why did you have the EICAR test file anyway?
04:33:13 <tswett> I want there to be a language whose definition is an interpreter for it, written in it. The interpreter allows you to modify it.
04:34:02 <tswett> The language behaves as if it were being interpreted as an infinite stack of interpreters, each interpreter faster than the one below it, so that it actually does stuff in a finite amount of time.
04:35:56 <tswett> So... the language is defined as a self-modifying self-interpreter. An actual implementation of the language has to somehow determine the meaning of any modified version of the self-interpreter.
04:37:13 <Sgeo> ais523, I downloaded it at some point recently I guess.
04:37:21 <Sgeo> I do know I like downloading it, I'm not sure why
04:37:37 <ais523> it strikes me that that must be one of the hardest possible files to download
04:37:43 <ais523> as every competent antivirus will try to stop you
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04:40:47 <pikhq_> Can confirm, literally just downloaded it and had the AV complain at me.
04:41:50 <tswett> Ooh, my client has "AV" kerned.
04:44:25 <hppavilion[1]> I found the text in wikipedia and saved it to a text file
04:44:31 <pikhq_> But hey, you can always go to data:application/octet-stream;base64,WDVPIVAlQEFQWzRcUFpYNTQoUF4pN0NDKTd9JEVJQ0FSLVNUQU5EQVJELUFOVElWSVJVUy1URVNULUZJTEUhJEgrSCo= and get it.
04:44:34 <hppavilion[1]> My AV yelled at me
04:45:20 <pikhq_> Though data:application/octet-stream,X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE!$H+H*
04:45:24 <pikhq_> might be more reasonable
04:45:40 <pikhq_> ... Modulo that not being a valid URI. Curses.
04:45:58 <tswett> `loudly AV
04:46:09 <HackEgo> AV
04:46:18 <tswett> It did not, of course, kern that.
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04:47:07 <tswett> So maybe this "language" would be a cellular automaton designed to have a particularly small unit cell.
04:51:05 <tswett> And one of its states would "break" the unit cell, putting it into a state where it can ultimately be arbitrarily modified.
04:51:54 <FireFly> Hmm
04:52:10 <FireFly> So now that people's logs contains that string, will they also be considered malware?
04:53:10 <zzo38> OK now I made a RDF parser in JavaScript
04:54:11 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/jZTO
04:55:13 <tswett> ais523: you know what would be harder? That file, repeated to fill 800 terabytes.
04:55:29 <ais523> tswett: well yes
04:55:37 <ais523> although not much harder, you'd probably download a generator or compressed archive
04:56:06 <ais523> I'm not saying you have to download the file directly
04:56:09 <tswett> Insert one random byte after each copy.
04:56:19 <tswett> And... make it 80 petabytes instead.
04:56:28 <ais523> you might as well have one copy of the file then 80 petabytes of random data
04:56:32 <ais523> to make it less compressible
04:56:53 <tswett> Now, a naive implementation of my CA, whenever you use the breaker state, would simply "zoom in", to produce a state that doesn't use the breaker state.
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04:57:28 <tswett> Which would, in theory, work perfectly well for programs which don't have infinite regression in how they use that state.
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05:04:23 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Insert a random byte at a random location in each one
05:04:34 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, no, tswett:
05:04:41 <hppavilion[1]> Well, either one works
05:04:47 <tswett> I like that idea.
05:05:05 <tswett> Or... for each copy, randomly select one of the bytes and then pick a random value for it.
05:05:12 <tswett> Occasionally, it will randomly pick the correct value.
05:05:59 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: It'll have the correct string roughly 4294967296 times
05:06:08 <tswett> Yup.
05:06:38 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: So that means that the compression is- wait. We're looking into ways to make files LESS compressible. Why? Why are we doing this?
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05:06:50 <tswett> To make them more difficult to download.
05:07:02 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Wait, I forgot to account for the 800
05:07:19 <hppavilion[1]> 3435973836800
05:07:42 <hppavilion[1]> 1:32 compression ratio
05:07:51 <hppavilion[1]> Or is it 32:1? I forget
05:08:18 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I don't think your antivirus would even let you try to download an 800 TB file if it was competent
05:08:40 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, your COMPUTER wouldn't let you download it because LIMITATIONS OF THE LAWS OF PHYSICS
05:10:19 <tswett> Well...
05:10:34 <tswett> At work, there's a "network drive" that's rather large.
05:10:38 <tswett> See...
05:10:47 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: My point is, we can do better at compression
05:10:53 <hppavilion[1]> Two random bytes gives us
05:11:17 <hppavilion[1]> Or, well, worse
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05:11:29 <tswett> You know how nowadays, in the My Computer screen, each drive has a bar underneath indicating the disk usage?
05:11:42 <tswett> And now, once disk usage exceeds a certain amount, that bar turns red?
05:11:49 <hppavilion[1]> I really don't know. I don't think 1:32 was right
05:11:55 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Yes I knew the first part
05:11:59 <tswett> On this network drive, that bar turned red because it only had 70 terabytes of free space left.
05:12:01 <hppavilion[1]> But I've never reached too much disk
05:12:10 <hppavilion[1]> Woooooow
05:12:32 <hppavilion[1]> Microsoft, don't use percentages. It's not really scalable.
05:12:56 <hppavilion[1]> A yottabyte of free space on a 100 yottabyte drive is more than enough free space
05:13:49 <hppavilion[1]> Unless you're downloading the entirety of internet porn. Then you're fucked.
05:13:50 <hppavilion[1]> (http://cow.org/csi/)
05:14:26 <pikhq_> Is there enough storage on the planet for that?
05:16:28 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq_: No, which seems paradoxical until you see what martians are into
05:16:37 <oerjan> obviously not, internet porn is infinite
05:17:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If it exists, there is porn of it in the meta
05:17:30 <hppavilion[1]> (rule 1156)
05:18:03 <oerjan> no, there's porn of it on the internet. the meta contains even porn of things that _don't_ exist hth
05:18:41 <oerjan> hot IPU action
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05:37:32 <tswett> I dunno, I think displaying that warning for 70 terabytes of free space kind of makes sense.
05:37:50 <tswett> Like, pretend that there are 1,000 people at work who use this drive.
05:37:54 <tswett> That's 70 gigabytes apiece.
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05:53:24 <\oren\> eva report while flying in Kerbin's upper atmosphere
05:53:39 <\oren\> "You feel like you should really get back in the ship"
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06:00:27 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Fair enough
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07:17:23 <hppavilion[1]> If I set up a standard protocol for internal server communication between people who like /classic/ internet
07:17:46 <hppavilion[1]> Something that works in a terminal (or, for the client I made, a terminal-like GUI) and has custom external servers
07:18:12 <hppavilion[1]> Basically like a stripped-down website, coupled with a command line
07:18:15 <hppavilion[1]> Who here would use it?
07:19:12 <zzo38> See how the protocol is work first, and then people would decide.
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07:33:59 <\oren\> the apollo guidance computer has a very strange terminology
07:34:47 <Sgeo> Just played a Simpsons arcade game in NewRetroArcade (which uses MAME)'
07:35:03 <Sgeo> Are these things just designed to suck in money the way mobile games do today?
07:36:46 <\oren\> yup
07:37:21 <pikhq_> Very much so.
07:38:27 <Sgeo> I don't know if having free coins ruins any ability to learn to play well, or if there's not that high of a skill ceiling
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08:00:40 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Ah, yes
08:04:07 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I think you're describing a BBS
08:04:20 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Whihc is?
08:04:36 <\oren\> BBS was like a website but you interacted with it directly with telnet
08:05:41 <hppavilion[1]> Yay!
08:05:41 <zzo38> It still exists, and there are several software for hosting such, such as Synchronet
08:05:43 <hppavilion[1]> It works!
08:05:59 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_board_system
08:06:06 <hppavilion[1]> I think the thing I made is pretty cool. It's very versatile, at least in theory.
08:06:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to see if I can trick anyone into hosting it and feeling like a 1337 h4xx0r
08:06:56 <zzo38> Originally Synchronet was only for telephone lines, but now it supports Telnet, Rlogin, SSH, Gopher, HTTP, and FTP, as well as telephone lines; it also now also supports JavaScript.
08:07:30 <zzo38> (Actually I believe it also supports SMTP, NNTP, and IRC as well.)
08:07:39 <zzo38> (And also FidoNet)
08:08:12 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: A typical session in what I've made may look like this: http://pastebin.com/nQB3TaUp
08:09:02 <hppavilion[1]> Wow.
08:09:13 <hppavilion[1]> I'm visitor #23 to a thing I just got working xd
08:09:15 <hppavilion[1]> *xD
08:11:10 <hppavilion[1]> Better example: http://pastebin.com/xRnvGfJk
08:11:21 <hppavilion[1]> It's also SSH to some degree.
08:11:29 <hppavilion[1]> But it only works in its own little silo
08:13:53 <zzo38> I do not know if Synchronet supports ES6 yet, although they ought to make it to do so, and also to fix the API to work better with ES6 (for example to read a file into a ArrayBuffer).
08:14:27 <hppavilion[1]> The idea is that it's a personal server, something you leave hosted as a hobby and through which you disseminate information
08:15:01 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps some blogging could be done on it- but, like, super awesome blogging because it's not a website, it's a terminal
08:15:17 <hppavilion[1]> Not that lame weblogging
08:15:29 <zzo38> Yes, although many programs can be run even just as a personal server that you can leave hosted as a hobby
08:16:25 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: True, true
08:16:29 <zzo38> Including real BBS servers, and gopher and HTTP servers (I know that someone runs a combination HTTP and gopher server that they wrote themself in BASIC)
08:16:43 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I want to make mine somehow special. Not sure how though xD
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09:59:14 <hppavilion[1]> 54 is 42's double convergence point over sqrt
09:59:21 <hppavilion[1]> Well, 55
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11:40:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CBF (Cleverer Brainfuck)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46366&oldid=41963 * SEnergy * (+19)
11:41:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CBF (Cleverer Brainfuck)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46367&oldid=46366 * SEnergy * (+20)
11:42:37 <fizzie> I'm confused by those edits.
11:42:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CBF (Cleverer Brainfuck)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46368&oldid=46367 * SEnergy * (-10302) Blanked the page
11:45:07 <fizzie> I... guess they want to delete an article they wrote?
11:48:21 <izabera> no they just wanted to blank the page
11:48:42 <fizzie> The first two edits added templates that don't exist on our wiki, but do on Wikipedia.
11:48:56 <fizzie> First being a "speedy deletion by author request", and the second some sort of generic delete template.
11:49:13 <fizzie> I'm guessing blanking the page was a fallback option.
12:14:01 <myname> crazy how you can make a bachelor thesis out of this
12:25:27 <fizzie> A "fit butt" bachelor's thesis, mind you.
12:26:12 <fizzie> "In this thesis, author discusses and analyzes design flaws of experimental programming language Brainfuck, for which he suggests solution in form of extension of original language. Then he formaly defines this extension and implements its interpret and debugger."
12:26:40 <fizzie> Sadly, it's in a language I don't read.
12:27:31 <Taneb> One of my friends challenged me to do my thesis on brainfuck, mostly so I could get away with writing fuck a lot in a master's thesis
12:27:35 <fizzie> One (of the four) references is to esolangs.org. :)
12:27:38 <Taneb> I don't think I'll take up his challenge
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12:31:45 <myname> i also references esolangs.org a lot in my thesis
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12:35:15 <Taneb> myname: what was your thesis on?
12:35:48 <myname> lexing of 2d languages
12:38:39 <fizzie> This thesis refers [1] the Aho, Ullman, Lam "Compilers" book; [2] Böhm, C., On a family of Turing machines and the related programming languages, [3] esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck, [4] Rosenberg and Saloma, Handbook of Formal Languages.
12:39:35 <myname> i am also not sure if i would÷ve called bf "experimental"
12:39:45 <fizzie> Or its properties "design flaws".
12:40:17 <fizzie> I'm slightly unsure whether it's appropriate to have Feeney, S. listed as the (sole) author of the Brainfuck article.
12:41:54 <fizzie> (That's graue, who did write the first revision, but it's got a number of contributors since.)
12:43:25 <Taneb> myname: interesting! Is it available on the internet to read?
12:43:44 <myname> Taneb: it is written in german :p
12:44:09 <Taneb> That sounds unfortunate for me, a monolingual, to read
12:44:10 <Taneb> :(
12:44:52 <Phantom_Hoover> well it'd be fine if you were monolingual in german
12:45:06 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think I am, for some reason
12:45:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, wait, you mean all these years you were actually trying to speak english?
12:45:45 <Taneb> What
12:45:55 <Taneb> Where did you get that idea
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12:46:14 <fizzie> Looks like plain-as-day Tanebese to me.
12:48:18 <Phantom_Hoover> is that part of the same language family of zzo38an?
12:48:41 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: common misassumption. There's a lot of false friends between the two
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15:11:21 <boily> @ask hppavilion[1] since when are we misleading the topics? everything makes sense, eh?
15:11:22 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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17:42:29 <boily> `wisdom
17:42:46 <boily> ...
17:42:54 <HackEgo> hovercraft/a-é-ro-g-liss-e-ur. If you mention eels, you'll get smacked with one of them in a most unappropriate manner.
17:44:45 <int-e> `? eel
17:44:46 <HackEgo> eel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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18:02:27 * boily eely mapoles int-e
18:03:00 <int-e> I was thinking of a party involving biologists, electrical engineers and trouts.
18:03:58 <int-e> `? y
18:03:59 <HackEgo> Y is a commune in France. There's nothing funny about this.
18:06:53 <coppro> `quote
18:06:55 <HackEgo> 80) <AnMaster> fungot!*@* added to ignore list. <fungot> AnMaster: i'd find that a bit annoying to wait for an ack.
18:06:58 <coppro> `quote
18:06:58 <coppro> `quote
18:06:58 <coppro> `quote
18:06:58 <coppro> `quote
18:07:13 <ais523> 80 is great
18:07:16 * ais523 waits for the other four
18:07:22 <HackEgo> 1007) <ais523> in soviet russia, what sees you is what gets you
18:07:23 <HackEgo> 18) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste"
18:07:23 <HackEgo> 415) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly
18:07:25 <HackEgo> 84) <Warrigal> Darn, now I can't acknowledge the reference you were making.
18:07:50 <ais523> I don't really like the last three
18:07:59 <ais523> 1007 is me trying too hard to be funny but it's still better than the last three
18:08:27 <coppro> yeah
18:08:44 <coppro> where is elliott these days?
18:09:06 <int-e> `? metasepia
18:09:09 <HackEgo> metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
18:09:11 <ais523> just stopped turning up
18:09:18 <ais523> channel regulars tend not to stay forever
18:11:45 <Vorpal> ais523: hi
18:11:56 <ais523> hi Vorpal
18:12:15 <Vorpal> Also you are right, quote 80 is great
18:12:30 <Vorpal> why on earth would I put fungot on ignore as well?
18:12:30 <fungot> Vorpal: i plan to write a number
18:12:46 <ais523> Vorpal: people were abusing it at the time, and you were more sensitive back then to spam in the channel
18:13:07 <Vorpal> ais523: well I was in it for a start, probably had something to do with it
18:13:50 <Vorpal> <ais523> just stopped turning up <-- no elliott any more? :(
18:14:24 <Vorpal> Also I wonder why hexchat thinks the ping time is 30 seconds all the time...
18:14:32 <Vorpal> It clearly isn't
18:15:13 -!- Vorpal has changed nick to Vorpal_.
18:15:20 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal.
18:15:26 <Vorpal> .... I just looked at nickserv info since I haven't been on here for some time.
18:15:28 <Vorpal> -NickServ- User reg. : Dec 26 16:35:03 2005 (10y 6w 3d ago)
18:15:30 <Vorpal> Wow
18:15:44 <Vorpal> Time flies
18:17:11 <coppro> `quot
18:17:12 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quot: not found
18:17:12 <coppro> `quote
18:17:13 <coppro> `quote
18:17:13 <HackEgo> 1008) <kmc> LIST OF ACRONYMS: List Integrating Some Terminology Of Fine Authentic Credibility Relating to Our New Year Media System
18:17:13 <coppro> `quote
18:17:14 <coppro> `quote
18:17:14 <HackEgo> 54) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
18:17:14 <HackEgo> 814) <fizzie> I was hoping I could be like other people and listen to signals while in a public transport vehicle.
18:17:14 <HackEgo> 812) <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
18:17:16 <coppro> `quote
18:17:17 <HackEgo> 1082) <boily> it's not weird, it's even in alphabetical order and nicely formatted!
18:17:30 <boily> :D
18:17:35 <coppro> :D
18:19:17 <ais523> `find . -name quotes
18:19:18 <HackEgo> find: `. -name quotes': No such file or directory
18:19:20 <ais523> `` find . -name quotes
18:19:30 <HackEgo> ​./bin/quotes \ ./quotes
18:19:42 <ais523> `` sort ./quotes | head
18:19:43 <HackEgo> 00:07 Sgeo has quit (IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.) 00:12 Sgeo has joined #esoteric. \ [2008] <nooga> i'm testing Haiku <nooga> and it appears that it is a major shit <oerjan> 5+7+5, not 5+11, nooga \ <adu> me thinks fungot is high on crack <fungot> adu: not exactly something like that. bu
18:20:18 <ais523> `` sort ./quotes | head -n 20 | sed 's/(....................).*/\1/'
18:20:19 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 30: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
18:20:27 <ais523> `` sort ./quotes | head -n 20 | sed 's/\(....................\).*/\1/'
18:20:28 <HackEgo> 00:07 Sgeo has quit \ [2008] <nooga> i'm t \ <adu> me thinks fung \ [After a long monolo \ [after a long string \ [after a quote delet \ <A. Gelman and G. Ro \ <ais523> 99% OF USES \ <ais523> after all, \ <ais523> after a whi \ <ais523> also, why i \ <ais523> and then I \ <ais523> bleh, why d \ <ais523> btw, I fina \ * ais523 challenges \ <ais5
18:20:41 <ais523> now I just need to work on the nice formatting
18:21:24 <myname> after a
18:23:00 <ais523> `quote ais523 challenges
18:23:01 <HackEgo> 947) * ais523 challenges the americans here to remember who lost in the most recent UK general election <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, the lib dems
18:23:27 <ais523> I guess that one's only funny if you're either British, or following British politics
18:25:33 <coppro> it's really good though
18:25:44 <ais523> yes
18:25:54 <ais523> context makes it slightly better but it's funny even without
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18:42:10 <Sgeo> So, when I play the Simpsons arcade game, am I reducing my skill level by giving it as many coins as I want, or is that pretty much inevitable because they want my money?
18:42:31 <Sgeo> (It's MAME, I have free coins >.> )
18:45:06 <zzo38> You can try to win with as few coins as possible I suppose. But if you fail, it mean you can try again without spending extra money, now
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19:16:09 <diginet> I intentionally avoid all politics
19:16:23 <diginet> you can't change anything, and all it does is make me mad...so why bother?
19:18:30 <\oren\> well thqt's not quite ture
19:19:29 <int-e> Well at least Wikipedia seems sufficient to explain the joke :)
19:19:57 <int-e> `wc quotes
19:20:01 <HackEgo> ​ 1264 25410 152033 quotes
19:20:27 <\oren\> you can change things if you're at the start of a change that is already ready to go, like when public opinion has changed but the govt hasn't caught up
19:21:22 <b_jonas> `wisdom
19:21:23 <HackEgo> pie/I like pie \ I like pie
19:21:31 <b_jonas> `wisdom
19:21:33 <HackEgo> quine/`? quine
19:21:40 <b_jonas> `? quine
19:21:40 <HackEgo> ​`? quine
19:22:46 <\oren\> as for politics making you mad, the trick is to only follow other countries' politis closely
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19:23:23 <ais523> \oren\: right, I'm following the current US electoin
19:23:27 <ais523> mostly for the entertainment value
19:23:34 <int-e> I suppose the quote predates the 2015 general elections?
19:23:37 <b_jonas> `? US election
19:23:38 <HackEgo> US election? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:23:42 <b_jonas> `? election
19:23:43 <HackEgo> election? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:23:53 <ais523> int-e: not sure
19:23:58 <ais523> it'd be funny either way but for different reasons
19:24:06 <int-e> yeah
19:24:58 <int-e> 2013-02-26-raw.txt:< 1361904098 931888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION challenges the americans here to remember who lost in the most recent UK general election
19:25:14 <ais523> OK yes
19:25:20 <ais523> that one's better because it's less obvious
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19:25:27 <ais523> (that election, it is)
19:25:30 <\oren\> the hampstershire primaries are tommorrow
19:26:46 <\oren\> most likely the winners will be the commie and the fasist
19:26:58 <ais523> the interesting things being a) the victory margin for sanders on the democratic side, and b) whatever is going on with the republicans
19:27:13 <ais523> to be fair the republican side is more interesting because I can't believe any of them are electable
19:27:23 <fizzie> That sed was a complicated way to type cut -c 1-20.
19:27:28 <ais523> so it's interesting to see which crazy direction they go in
19:27:36 <ais523> fizzie: I can never quite remember how cut works and the man page wouldn't fit on IRC
19:27:59 <ais523> `` man cut
19:28:00 <\oren\> I figure trump, once he gets nominated, is suddenly going to veer left on some issues he's avoided talking about
19:28:01 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
19:28:09 <ais523> \oren\: or even on ones he has
19:28:26 <ais523> there was an election at a society I was in where someone ran as a joke candidate and gave bizarre speeches
19:28:34 <ais523> but then admitted that if they'd won, they'd have tried to do the job sensibly and properly
19:28:45 <ais523> just were trying to make the elections themselves more interesting and contested
19:29:24 <int-e> trump's unpredictable
19:30:03 <Vorpal> fizzie: hi!
19:31:05 <Vorpal> int-e: I don't think he will "do the job sensibly and properly" though
19:31:17 <fizzie> ais523: I can only remember the "-c N-M" variant.
19:31:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hi.
19:31:57 <Vorpal> fizzie: weird, I can only remember the cut -d' ' -f N-M variant
19:31:59 <Vorpal> Hm
19:32:11 <ais523> does paste have any options at all?
19:32:22 <Vorpal> ais523: if it is gnu, yes
19:32:26 <ais523> normally I link it up with expand in order to place the columns in more readable positions
19:32:35 <Vorpal> ais523: at the very least --help and --copyright
19:32:39 <Vorpal> or --version or something
19:32:47 <Vorpal> Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too.
19:32:47 <Vorpal> -d, --delimiters=LIST reuse characters from LIST instead of TABs
19:32:47 <Vorpal> -s, --serial paste one file at a time instead of in parallel
19:32:47 <Vorpal> --help display this help and exit
19:32:48 <Vorpal> --version output version information and exit
19:32:49 <ais523> it has -d and -s but neither seems that useful
19:33:14 <ais523> like what does -s even do? read the files one at a time, and then paste as normal?
19:33:21 <Vorpal> Isn't -s just cat?
19:33:30 <Vorpal> I never used paste, what does normal paste do?
19:34:13 <Vorpal> Oh, put each file side by side
19:35:52 <ais523> it's the opposite of cut
19:36:18 <Vorpal> ais523: try man 1p paste, it sheds more light on the options
19:36:24 <Vorpal> rather confusing options but
19:36:47 <ais523> I don't have a section 1p
19:36:53 <ais523> that's posix presumably?
19:37:27 <fizzie> "Concatenate all of the lines of each separate input file in command line order. The <newline> of every line except the last line in each input file shall be replaced with the <tab>, unless otherwise specified by the -d option."
19:37:27 <Vorpal> ais523: that is the posix docs split in man pages
19:37:38 <ais523> oh, according to the info page, -s basically transposes the output
19:38:05 <Vorpal> apt-get install manpages-posix (for 1p) and apt-get install manpages-posix-dev (for 3p)
19:38:16 <Vorpal> ais523: I found those packages really useful
19:38:39 <ais523> right, was just doing that
19:38:43 <ais523> looks like it could come in handy
19:38:50 <ais523> (presumably there isn't a 2p because posix doesn't specify syscalls?)
19:39:35 <Vorpal> Apparently -d and -s interact in weird ways
19:40:00 <Vorpal> ais523: though there are some pages in 2 that have corresponding 3p but no 3
19:40:22 <Vorpal> I guess it is a case of splitting between libc and syscalls differently?
19:40:53 <ais523> yay, this makes it much easier to get things like the yacc spec
19:41:01 <ais523> Vorpal: could be
19:41:10 <ais523> "open" is in 3p
19:41:23 <ais523> I can't imagine many POSIX systems where that wouldn't be a syscall
19:41:24 <Vorpal> Yeah, that is an example of that
19:41:31 <ais523> so presumably 3p just contains all the stuff that's meant to be in libc
19:41:39 <Vorpal> Think so yes
19:41:54 <Vorpal> also there is no 5p or 7p iirc
19:42:08 <Vorpal> btw what is in 4, 6, 8 and 9 anyway?
19:42:13 * Vorpal looks at man man
19:42:21 <Vorpal> Oh
19:42:48 <ais523> 4 is for things like /dev/null
19:42:51 <Vorpal> 6 is games
19:42:59 <Vorpal> Like nethack presumably?
19:43:00 <ais523> 6 and 8 are both executables that people didn't want in 1 for whatever reason
19:43:08 <ais523> and it only goes up to 8
19:43:18 <ais523> (some people use 9 for weird nonstandard things, I think)
19:43:31 <Vorpal> Why the numeric splitting to begin with?
19:43:37 <Vorpal> It isn't very intuitive at all
19:43:55 <Vorpal> Wouldn't say cmd/ sys/ lib/ and so on make more sense
19:43:59 <ais523> chapters of the manual
19:44:00 <zzo38> I think it is fine and use the numeric splitting
19:44:06 <ais523> originally this was a printed book
19:44:10 <Vorpal> ais523: the original UNIX manual I guess?
19:44:12 <ais523> with the option to read bits online
19:44:21 <Vorpal> Makes more sense then
19:44:30 <ais523> it still has headings and footers and the like, although people are often unsure about what to put there
19:44:57 <zzo38> I put zorkmid in section 6, and playmod in section 1
19:45:26 <Vorpal> true
19:47:12 <Vorpal> What is the point of /dev/full...
19:47:49 <ais523> Vorpal: testing the error handling of your programs
19:48:12 <ais523> adding "> /dev/full" to the end of your command line is a trivial way to see if your program handles errors printing output correctly
19:48:13 <Vorpal> ais523: right, but it is utterly crude...
19:48:19 <Vorpal> It is one specific error
19:49:02 <Vorpal> What it it fails to EBADF instead? EDQUOT?
19:49:15 <Vorpal> A proper fault simulator might be more useful
19:49:29 <Vorpal> Seem to remember that the sqlite guys made something like that
19:49:41 <ais523> they did
19:49:51 <ais523> however the vast majority of programs don't care about the specific error code
19:49:58 <ais523> sometimes even in cases where they should (e.g. EINTR, EAGAIN)
19:50:07 <Vorpal> ais523: the error recovery might be different
19:50:53 <Vorpal> Not sure if the sqlite thing is reusable for other projects
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20:01:15 <zzo38> I found that AmigaMML with > /dev/full seems to work OK (although it will not write the song anywhere), although input from /dev/null results in a floating point exception.
20:11:11 <fizzie> Huh. The thesis publication thingie wanted a back cover text.
20:12:30 <fizzie> Also: I keep getting porn ad spam in Swedish at the 'webmaster' role address of gehennom.org.
20:12:39 <ais523> you own gehennom.org?
20:12:44 <fizzie> Yes.
20:12:56 <ais523> oh, hmm, it appears to duplicate content of zem.fi
20:13:01 <fizzie> At the moment, yes.
20:13:05 <fizzie> It's been different as well.
20:13:08 <fizzie> I used to run a public nethack server once.
20:13:59 <fizzie> And I've been thinking of putting something nethack-related (some sort of data visualization stuffs, maybe) up there, but haven't.
20:14:11 -!- bb010g has joined.
20:15:55 <fizzie> Oh, and I think I hosted darkhive as a subdomain of gehennom.org.
20:17:32 -!- ais523 has quit.
20:19:04 <Vorpal> fizzie: darkhive?
20:20:12 <fizzie> An unofficial archive of a discussion forum with a name starting with d -- hence, "d-arkhive".
20:20:26 <fizzie> Given the quality content, maybe the "dark-hive" split is appropriate as well.
20:20:42 <Vorpal> ah
20:22:59 <zzo38> Can you please tell me how to set up the email so that it uses different user name for messages received from internet than local messages?
20:23:38 <fizzie> Maybe I should at least stick in some sort of a more nethacky placeholder on that thing, rather than have it just be a (probably broken somehow; at least the TLS cert is wrong) copy of zem.fi. It got to be like that just because I migrated to lighttpd and didn't bother to configure in name-based vhosts.
20:25:07 <Vorpal> fizzie: lighttpd is still alive?
20:25:16 <Vorpal> I thought it was all nginx these days
20:25:55 <fizzie> I don't know how much development effort it gets, but they do at least fix issues.
20:26:07 <Vorpal> Speaking of which, I should should upgrade nginx to a version supporting HTTP2, some day
20:26:25 <Vorpal> Apparently debian backports only has the version right before the HTTP2 one
20:26:28 <Vorpal> annoying
20:26:43 <fizzie> You should upgrade it to a version supporting QUIC, be all even fancier. Except I don't think there is a version to do that.
20:26:55 <Vorpal> heh
20:27:04 <Vorpal> isn't that UDP?
20:27:06 <fizzie> Yes.
20:27:28 <fizzie> It's pretty much a mapping of HTTP/2 on UDP.
20:29:24 <Vorpal> heh
20:29:49 <Vorpal> "Round-trip times, roughly defined by the speed of light, are bounded, and as a result the only way to decrease connection latency is to make fewer round-trips."
20:29:58 <Vorpal> Quoting wikipedia on QUIC
20:30:06 <Vorpal> Um...
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20:30:33 <Vorpal> We are not even close to the point of the propagation delay being the limiting factor for most connections
20:30:51 <Vorpal> Just compare ping over ethernet and wifi to see that
20:31:38 <fizzie> Yes, it's a bit of a silly comment. The reason QUIC cares about round-trips is because RTTs on mobile networks are awful.
20:31:48 <Vorpal> yes it is
20:31:54 <fizzie> Much awful-er than mandated by the speed of light, that is.
20:32:19 <Vorpal> fizzie: Also we should dig cables straight through earth, that way imagine how much less the delay to Australia will be
20:33:01 <fizzie> The original source for that comment is probably from a Chromium blog post: "However, despite increasing bandwidth, round trip time (RTT)--which is ultimately bounded by the speed of light--is not decreasing, and will remain high on mobile networks for the foreseeable future."
20:33:08 <Vorpal> Speaking of ethernet, why does ethernet connectors generally have status leds, for both connection and data. And why doesn't, say, USB also have that?
20:33:08 <fizzie> Where the bounded-by-c was just an aside.
20:33:21 <fizzie> http://blog.chromium.org/2013/06/experimenting-with-quic.html
20:33:24 <Vorpal> Ah
20:34:48 <Vorpal> fizzie: btw this laptop gets much more stable ping times when using 2.4 GHz than when using 5 GHz. To the same access point. This does not apply to other devices connected to the same access point. I wonder what is going on
20:37:05 <quintopia> issues with your adapter driver?
20:42:33 <Vorpal> quintopia: possibly? It is an old intel adapter
20:42:45 <Vorpal> cIntel Corporation PRO/Wireless 5100 AGN [Shiloh] Network Connection
20:42:58 <Vorpal> not sure where that c came from, it wasn't supposed to be there
20:43:19 <Vorpal> quintopia: the laptop is quite old. About 6.5 years I think
20:43:26 <Vorpal> It has a Core 2 Duo
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21:57:08 <zzo38> Do you like my idea of "HTCLS"? (Like ARIA, it would also be a set of HTML attribute with their own prefixes, although they have different purposes and meanings from ARIA. However, it can be combined with ARIA and other stuff too.)
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22:15:28 <\oren\> you don't need a cable thruough the earth if we can do it with a neutrino beam
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22:56:29 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
22:56:30 <lambdabot> EGLL 072250Z 22019G29KT 9999 -SHRA FEW006CB BKN015 08/07 Q0985 RESHGR RESHRA RERA TEMPO 4800 RA BKN010
22:56:46 <oerjan> <fizzie> I... guess they want to delete an article they wrote? <-- maybe the thesis didn't pass
22:56:56 <fizzie> oerjan: No, it's listed as successfully defended.
22:56:59 <fizzie> Also: RESHGR RESHRA RERA.
22:57:01 <oerjan> huh.
22:57:05 <oerjan> wat
22:57:16 <fizzie> The metar.
22:57:22 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
22:57:22 <lambdabot> ENVA 072250Z 25007KT 220V280 9999 FEW045 03/02 Q0977 RMK WIND 670FT 23010KT
22:57:32 <oerjan> today we have vicious ice
22:57:35 <fizzie> "WIND", what's that supposed to mean.
22:57:39 <oerjan> (it got my knee)
22:58:02 <oerjan> so shall we delete it?
22:58:25 <fizzie> I guess? I don't know what the common practice is.
22:58:46 <oerjan> (my initial predisposition is "yes", unless the language is particularly interesting. it's a BF derivative after all.
22:58:49 <oerjan> )
22:59:07 <oerjan> fizzie: well i've deleted by author request before, as has ais523.
22:59:25 <oerjan> very well, i'm going ahead.
22:59:37 <fizzie> Sounds reasonable. And no, I don't think it's any kind of crazy-notable.
22:59:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[CBF (Cleverer Brainfuck)]]": Author request: content before blanking was: "{{delete| reason }} {{db-g7}} {{db-g7}}==Introduction== Programming language '''CBF''' was developed by Marcel Fiala, student of FIT BUT. This project started as procrastination, but turned out to be solid base for author..."
23:00:31 <fizzie> Since you're at it... https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Related_languages "LecRAM" points to a redirect to "CBR (Cleverer Brainfuck)
23:00:33 <oerjan> hm interesting, it showed the content of the revision i was looking at, not the blanked one.
23:00:46 <fizzie> Which is a redirect to CBF, which you just deleted.
23:00:49 <oerjan> fizzie: i have that in another tab, as i got a warning from the delete button.
23:01:00 <fizzie> Handy.
23:01:13 <fizzie> MediaWiki is smart!
23:01:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[LecRAM]]": Broken redirect: content was: "#REDIRECT [[CBR (Cleverer Brainfuck)]]" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/SEnergy|SEnergy]]")
23:01:48 <FireFly> It's all thanks to the delete button
23:02:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46369&oldid=46359 * Oerjan * (-13) Going whole hog
23:02:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46370&oldid=46317 * Oerjan * (-138) *Poof*
23:04:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[CBR (Cleverer Brainfuck)]]": Broken redirect: content was: "#REDIRECT [[CBF (Cleverer Brainfuck)]]" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Esowiki201529A|Esowiki201529A]]")
23:04:38 <fizzie> One more for the road.
23:04:45 <oerjan> I WAS GETTING TO THAT
23:04:52 <fizzie> TOO SLOW
23:05:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46371&oldid=44836 * Oerjan * (-30) no such link *MWAHAHAHA*
23:07:30 <int-e> just what we need... an editor war
23:07:39 <fizzie> Hmm. We have 291 orphaned pages, claims Special:LonelyPages. Is that altogether right?
23:07:45 <fizzie> I guess it doesn't count categories.
23:08:22 <int-e> under that assumption it's plausible
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23:10:57 <fizzie> Some of these are not categorized, though.
23:11:14 <fizzie> After clicking at maybe five, two were "actual languages" (FSVO) that seem to be entirely orphan.
23:11:19 * oerjan checks the language list for mis-sorting and broken links
23:11:24 <oerjan> found none
23:12:27 <oerjan> i may not be able to keep up with the wiki, but at least i can keep things in order
23:14:50 <int-e> aejnor is our hero!
23:16:33 <int-e> > unwords . map sort . words $ "i refrained from sorting the other words as well"
23:16:35 <lambdabot> "i adeefinrr fmor ginorst eht ehort dorsw as ellw"
23:16:56 <int-e> and that was probably a good thing :)
23:20:36 <myname> i guess that particular sentence might have been readable
23:20:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:21:05 <int-e> yes, maybe
23:21:48 <oerjan> `learn Ginorst is eht aillpr fo dgoo iikw aaeegmmnnt.
23:22:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'ginorst': Ginorst is eht aillpr fo dgoo iikw aaeegmmnnt.
23:22:17 <int-e> > unwords . map sort . words $ "common and short words help a lot ( not tremendously )"
23:22:19 <lambdabot> "cmmnoo adn horst dorsw ehlp a lot ( not deelmnorstuy )"
23:22:36 <int-e> hah. "horst" doesn't work at all.
23:23:06 <myname> i don't get aillpr
23:23:15 <int-e> pillar
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23:23:32 <oerjan> **AAAAHHHMW
23:23:33 <myname> i have no clue what that means
23:23:47 <myname> that may be the problem
23:23:56 <int-e> free speech is a pillar of democracy
23:25:07 <myname> looked it up, makes sense
23:25:53 <fizzie> > let f (c : r) = c : g (reverse r); g (c : r) = reverse (c : (reverse . sort $ r)); g [] = [] in unwords . map f . words $ "on the other hand, sorting only the insides of words is perfectly readable, as usual"
23:25:55 <lambdabot> "on the oehtr hadn, sinortg olny the ideinss of wdors is pceeflrty raabdeel,...
23:26:07 <fizzie> Well, maybe pceeflrty is a bit too strong a word here.
23:26:36 -!- augur has joined.
23:26:38 <int-e> I was going to object indeed.
23:27:08 <int-e> There's the "skyline" theory for the middle part. And again, words shouldn't be too long.
23:27:26 <fizzie> (Also I got it a bit wrong with respect to punctuation that's attached to a word.)
23:27:52 <myname> yeah, i hate these people saying the order of letters don't matter because of one single text example that is crappy
23:28:13 <oerjan> `addquote <lambdabot> "on the oehtr hadn, sinortg olny the ideinss of wdors is pceeflrty raabdeel,... <fizzie> Well, maybe pceeflrty is a bit too strong a word here.
23:28:18 <int-e> > sort "oh well it could be worse"
23:28:18 <HackEgo> 1265) <lambdabot> "on the oehtr hadn, sinortg olny the ideinss of wdors is pceeflrty raabdeel,... <fizzie> Well, maybe pceeflrty is a bit too strong a word here.
23:28:19 <lambdabot> " bcdeeehilllooorstuww"
23:28:38 <fizzie> `words --finnish 10
23:28:43 <HackEgo> löytämästorista horstuvaltaneva teorgani luonivisevin käytyvimme temmenenne lohkerampanasi tuntiinisimpinänsä hutevälleen mainassammassa
23:29:04 <int-e> `words --german 10
23:29:08 <HackEgo> maricklumberen dasungs ster inters einlichkeitplastis botersatione kriederussena beppe hauployanitunt irrestütze
23:29:33 <fizzie> Einlichkeitplastis sounds quite believable.
23:29:41 <myname> well, no
23:29:49 <int-e> Indeed. Meaningless, but pretty plausible.
23:30:00 <myname> is is pretty unpopular as suffix for nouns
23:30:06 <int-e> myname: come on, reinlichkeitsfimmel exists!
23:30:15 <int-e> it is :)
23:30:18 <int-e> `words --german 10
23:30:20 <HackEgo> hinsmation punktionsbehand vermöglichs westandeformation analbesich morpolyphulz bögeneichtsfessenstisch verlandric reprädetes erdasjahrenschirnlei
23:30:25 <myname> except for things like diseases or the like
23:30:40 <int-e> "bögeneichtsfessenstisch" is a good one.
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23:31:06 <myname> i like westandeformation
23:31:52 <int-e> so is there a list of languages that `words supports?
23:31:56 <int-e> `words
23:32:00 <HackEgo> plunarwing
23:32:11 <int-e> `words --help
23:32:14 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
23:33:20 <fizzie> `words -l
23:33:21 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
23:33:47 <int-e> `words --german-medical 10
23:33:48 <HackEgo> mukopempfnekräfte leukämischacharisch atologie resien protisches mulinsäuresens peräume hypotrologisch röntgenenalgie diffusiereudoall
23:33:57 <oerjan> `words --ogerman 10
23:33:58 <HackEgo> bildunstum konträhnt gefahrei durchaltern megesch motokaltung getriebsjagdmauen aufzufunkt elegere unisblätzent
23:34:11 <oerjan> what's the difference
23:34:40 <int-e> `words --eng-fiction 10
23:34:45 <HackEgo> comme que corr exel ascenta mic monotie nett cada coff
23:34:54 <int-e> odd.
23:35:11 <oerjan> fictional english is a lot more concise
23:35:17 <int-e> `words --esolangs 10
23:35:19 <HackEgo> rpos aura fooblecogscript vrejvax hell fullmachine thubi liorse noobare anoilog
23:35:22 <fizzie> oerjan: I think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_orthography_reform_of_1996 is the difference.
23:35:29 <oerjan> ah.
23:35:42 <fizzie> (Assuming it's the same naming convention as Debian ispell packages.)
23:36:02 <oerjan> `cat bin/words
23:36:03 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/perl \ use strict; use warnings; \ use v5.10; \ use open qw( :encoding(UTF-8) :std); \ use File::Basename 'dirname'; \ use Storable 'retrieve'; \ use List::Util qw(sum min); \ use Getopt::Long qw(:config gnu_getopt); \ BEGIN { \ eval { \ require Math::Random::MT::Perl; Math::Random::MT::Perl->import('rand'); \ }; \ #wa
23:36:30 <oerjan> `` ls share/*ord*
23:36:31 <HackEgo> share/dict-words \ \ share/WordData: \ Brazilian \ Bulgarian \ CanadianEnglishInsane \ Catalan \ Eng1M \ EngAll \ EngFiction \ EngGb \ EngUs \ Esolangs \ Finnish \ French \ Gaelic \ German \ GermanMedical \ Hebrew \ Irish \ Italian \ Manx \ Norwegian \ Ogerman \ Polish \ Portuguese \ Russian \ Spanish \ Swedish
23:36:52 <myname> wtf germanmedical
23:37:03 <oerjan> `head share/WordData/Eng1M
23:37:04 <HackEgo> pst012345678.............e....n....a.... ....d....m....s....'....ss6........e....u....a....t...rb.............eW...........n....a..........rt.......... ....s....y...........c...........k....'...........o..........t....quy........щ....т....н....тоя.
23:37:27 <oerjan> hmph no readable header
23:37:28 <myname> `words --german-medical 10
23:37:29 <HackEgo> equenzblätte tochichten kards nebendemen zonswundes oxativ axilocandler abdomeratische periopationens inhibierendem
23:37:31 <int-e> `? pst0
23:37:33 <HackEgo> pst0? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:37:34 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/htcls
23:37:42 <myname> these are great
23:37:54 <fizzie> Package: wgerman-medical (20160103-1): "This package provides the file /usr/share/dict/german-medical containing a list of German medical words."
23:38:34 <myname> how does it do that? rnn or the like?
23:38:50 <fizzie> Character trigrams or 4-grams, I forget which.
23:38:59 <fizzie> Nothing fancier than that.
23:39:29 <fizzie> Plus some futzing for the word length modeling, I think.
23:42:57 <fizzie> I've used fungot's system for doing the same, but the Funge code isn't capable of bunching the letters together, there's a hardcoded space between tokens (with some special handling for punctuation).
23:42:58 <fungot> fizzie: i'm just not too well. why? because advanced ircbots will need it
23:43:07 <fizzie> fungot: I'm sorry to hear that.
23:43:07 <fungot> fizzie: but i might send the gauche guys a mail with my name in the alist, right? it would be
23:43:24 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, I think that's fine.
23:43:25 <fungot> fizzie: way to miss the bus because of that:
23:45:36 <fizzie> (The WordData/* files are Perl's "Storable" encoding.)
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